Judge May Shush Trump….in America??

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Speaker 3 Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Favreau.

Speaker 4 I'm not under any gag order.

Speaker 5 I'm Tommy Vitor.

Speaker 3 On today's pod, Donald Trump's lawyer tests out some novel defense arguments on all five Sunday shows.

Speaker 3 Mike Pence says he's open to testifying against Trump, and Ron DeSantis finally admits that Joe Biden won the election.

Speaker 3 Then Desiree Tims from Innovation Ohio joins to talk about the crucial abortion rights vote happening there today.

Speaker 3 And fresh off another weekend of sheer insanity, Elijah's back for another round of take appreciators. But first,

Speaker 3 just 24 hours after Donald Trump swore during his third arraignment that he wouldn't intimidate witnesses, he posted this all-caps message on Truth Social.

Speaker 3 If you come after me, I'm coming after you.

Speaker 3 In subsequent posts over the weekend, Trump also lashed out at star witness Mike Pence, the judge who's been assigned to his case, the city where his case will be tried, Nancy Pelosi, who he called a sick and demented psycho who will someday live in hell, and the U.S.

Speaker 3 women's soccer team whose World Cup defeat is one reason he believes, quote, the USA is going to hell. A lot of hell.

Speaker 3 Jack Smith prosecutors alerted Judge Tanya Chutkin of the coming after you threat as part of their request for a protective order that would prevent Trump from speaking publicly about the evidence the government shares with him.

Speaker 3 Trump didn't seem phased by any of this during his rally in South Carolina on Saturday, where he went after Jack Smith and Joe Biden.

Speaker 6 So they rigged the presidential election of 2020, and we're not going to allow them to rig the presidential election of 2024 because our country's not going to survive.

Speaker 3 Off to a strong start. In this case,

Speaker 3 let's start with Jack Smith's request for protective order. Tommy, why does the government want one and why did they include Trump's threat in their filing?

Speaker 5 So it's the Smith's team wants the judge to prevent Trump from making public evidence that was handed over to his lawyers in the discovery process.

Speaker 5 That evidence will likely contain personal identifying information about witnesses that Trump could then use to harass them on Twitter, dox them, have his supporters dox them, otherwise intimidate them.

Speaker 5 So it seems like that's what's driving a lot of this, as evidenced by the inclusion of the truth.

Speaker 3 Seems like doxing would be one of the nicer things his supporters would do.

Speaker 3 And of course, aside from their own safety, which is important to protect, if he publicly threatened people on the witness list, perhaps they wouldn't want to testify,

Speaker 3 which is another issue.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, I think we're all reading a little too much into this. Presumably, Joe Biden came after Donald Trump, and Donald Trump plans to defeat Joe Biden and come after Joe Biden.

Speaker 3 Oh, like literally as president.

Speaker 4 He came. It's just a statement.
Oh.

Speaker 3 I can't believe

Speaker 3 Laura didn't use that one.

Speaker 4 Well, you know,

Speaker 4 he's the best lawyer Trump's ever had, but that's not saying much.

Speaker 3 And of course, this would still, Trump's saying that, like, this is restricting my First Amendment rights. Trump would still see all the evidence against him.

Speaker 3 He just wouldn't be able to get his own copy and share it around or post it on Truth Social.

Speaker 3 So Trump's lawyers filed their opposition to the Predictive Order. They argue that it's overly broad, a restriction on his First Amendment rights.

Speaker 3 And they also accuse Joe Biden of, quote, capitalizing on Trump's indictment because he posted a tweet where he drinks from a dark Brandin mug that they're selling in his merch store.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's

Speaker 4 well, they're, they're, you know, this is not Rudy Giuliani. He's like a more serious lawyer.
And so he's acting, they're making an argument that Barslow, as we've said.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 he's not part of it anymore.

Speaker 3 No, no.

Speaker 3 Nice. Not yet, right? Is that right? Not yet.
Not yet. I don't think so.

Speaker 4 But oh, save that.

Speaker 3 Leave it in. Leave it in.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 they're trying to argue that he has to be able to, that

Speaker 4 these legal proceedings are part of the political process. So he needs to be able to talk about them publicly.

Speaker 4 Of course, it's like all of this is shadow boxing because Jack Smith is saying, hey, we want to protect sensitive information. What is the sensitive information that they're referring to right now?

Speaker 4 Well, none. They're referring to the fact that Donald Trump is already issuing vague and ominous threats.

Speaker 3 After he was specifically told not to by the magistrate judge when he was arraigned, and he said, Yes, sure.

Speaker 4 Well, by the way, he's been through this rigorum role in several of the other legal proceedings that have already taken place.

Speaker 4 And that in, I don't remember if it's the civil fraud trial affecting the E.

Speaker 4 Gene Carroll trial, the Eugene Carroll trial affecting the civil fraud trial, but in one of those, the way in which he was publicly trying to influence the case led the other judge to decide that some of this information needs to be protected because of the way he was going after prosecutors.

Speaker 4 And I believe maybe a third case.

Speaker 5 There was one instance where he posted on True Social that death and destruction could follow if he were charged. And I think that led to him being admonished.
The other

Speaker 3 thing I forgot about that.

Speaker 4 Man, what a journey. The other part of this, too, is like Trump's lawyer has, they kind of redlined the order to try to kind of make it about sensitive stuff, which would free Trump from the...

Speaker 3 The redlines that just like comments

Speaker 3 changes. It was like a standard contract.

Speaker 4 Well, it was a sort of like, I've never, like, normal Trump lawyers try to fuck Borat's aid and then get drunk on Newsmax. They don't usually open up a document and make edits.

Speaker 4 That's a kind of a twist.

Speaker 4 But they're trying to create the space for Trump to talk about some of the political implications publicly, as if no matter what the barriers are, Trump isn't going to blow through them anyway.

Speaker 4 Again, he didn't accidentally post a document that had a witness's address. He's began threatening people for being involved in the trial vaguely but still

Speaker 3 threatening. Yeah,

Speaker 4 over umbrella threat.

Speaker 3 And look, one of the reasons he's on trial is he famously did this with his vice president. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I mean, there are unique First Amendment implications in this trial because he is running for president. I do think they have a bit of a case that to not be able to talk about anything

Speaker 5 in Discovery would be challenging. But I think there is a real risk of Trump, you know, browbeating a witness out of testifying or otherwise intimidating prosecutors.

Speaker 5 I mean, he's calling Jack Smith the deranged psycho at events.

Speaker 3 So, yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. This is why it's sort of like we're dancing on the head of a paint.
It's like, oh, you can redline any fucking document all you want. Oh, I'll only talk about the nonsensitive ones.

Speaker 4 This is Donald Trump on the toilet on a Sunday. There's no controlling him.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I do think on the witness list, like if the judge agrees to the red line, he would then have freedom to disclose witness interviews, recordings, and other evidence from outside the grand jury proceedings.

Speaker 3 Basically, the Trump lawyers stipulated that whatever happened in the grand jury should remain secret, but that outside the witness.

Speaker 3 So you could imagine there was a few witnesses who like would be scared off by this he's a tweet gps coordinates for mark meadows' uh exact location exactly and the horde yeah well you keep saying like well he's gonna blow through all these red lines like what can the judge do if trump keeps making threats can she uh can she throw him in jail

Speaker 4 it brings me no pleasure to say that she could the uh it's it's obviously all it's like it's it's hard to this is all so unprecedented so it feels ridiculous and very resistance-y and online to be like the judge could revoke bail and and and lock him up until the trial.

Speaker 3 Straightforward from here. But but

Speaker 4 all of this is unprecedented.

Speaker 4 And I was trying, I was, I was remembering an example of a, of a federal defendant who had their bail revoked because they were, it turns out, uh, accused of committing crimes while on bail.

Speaker 4 It was Michael Avenatti.

Speaker 3 Remember that?

Speaker 4 Michael Avenatti. There's, you can, there are plenty of examples of federal, in federal cases of judges saying, I'm revoking bail.

Speaker 4 Two of the Proud Boys had their bail revoked because it turns out there was more evidence showing that they were more deeply involved and threatening to lawmakers.

Speaker 4 So, like, it all, we're all, we're in this uncharted place where it seems inconceivable that a judge would revoke the bail of a former president because he's such a menace to the public and have him fucking frog-marched

Speaker 4 until his trial, but all of this is unprecedented.

Speaker 3 Tommy, do you think that the special counsel filing to request a pre-trial detention would just say, lock him up? That would be good.

Speaker 5 I I mean, there are, they could maybe step up to lock him up. The judge could impose additional conditions

Speaker 5 in the least restrictive way possible that will make sure he shows up at trial and not put other people at risk. So prohibiting contact with witnesses is one option that she could go down.

Speaker 5 But yeah, I mean, ultimately, you get to revoking bond, which would lead to litigation and probably delay the trial. But wow.

Speaker 3 It feels like she would probably give him a warning first.

Speaker 3 Let's go. Let him explain himself.

Speaker 3 Yeah, for sure. And then I do think that beyond the

Speaker 3 pre-trial detention option which does seem like the most extreme option in this case she could i mean like if he continues to piss off the judge the judge has a lot of power here she has a lot of leeway she can like rule against his request for recusal which she'd probably do anyway because he's he's he said these he has a very powerful case for her recusing herself even though his lawyer's like we're not sure he's like we're not sure if we're gonna call for recusal yet uh she could rule against his venue change uh request which again she probably will anyway because uh he

Speaker 3 he wants to go to a more politically diverse West Virginia where he won by 60 points

Speaker 3 instead of Washington, D.C., where he committed the crime.

Speaker 3 You want a jury in West Virginia? Commit a crime in West Virginia.

Speaker 4 Go do this.

Speaker 4 Don't give any ideas.

Speaker 5 Well, guys, I decided to do a little pro bono work here for Aaron Trump and see if this argument would fly. There is some precedent that he could cite.

Speaker 5 One, Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma city bomber, who his lawyers got a judge in Oklahoma to move the trial to Denver because the entire state of Oklahoma was prejudiced against them for conducting what was then the worst terrorist attack on U.S.

Speaker 5 soil ever.

Speaker 3 So I guess they can move it to fucking Antarctica.

Speaker 5 That's an argument you can go for.

Speaker 3 Well, and also I would say this.

Speaker 3 Who on the planet doesn't have an opinion of this guy?

Speaker 4 I would also

Speaker 4 think about what Timothy McVeigh would say about whether or not it worked. And I don't think it's very much.

Speaker 3 No, no, it doesn't look good.

Speaker 4 Just so many people understand, he was executed.

Speaker 3 Didn't go to

Speaker 3 well. And the other thing she could do, of course, is his biggest play here is to delay, delay, delay, delay.

Speaker 3 And she gets pissed off enough, she's just going to rule against all of his attempts to delay.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Just like stepping back from, like, yes, obviously this judge is well aware of the public attention to this and is going to go to great pains to avoid detaining the former president of the United States before the trial.

Speaker 4 That said,

Speaker 3 by the way, if you want some fun reading, there's a Washington Post story from last week about like, could he go to jail? What happens with the Secret Service protection? What's a real thing in Iowa?

Speaker 4 But, like, everything about what Trump is doing, the reason he feels so safe sitting in his house saying threatening things about every lawyer and prosecutor is because he is counting on the fact that he is not treated like everybody else.

Speaker 4 And at a certain point, he is going to push this either to the point of being threatened by the judge one last time or actually at some point, potentially being detained or just as close as he could possibly get to it.

Speaker 3 That's it.

Speaker 4 That's what's going to happen.

Speaker 3 I wonder what do you think would be worse for him?

Speaker 3 Being detained?

Speaker 3 I could see her maybe as a house arrest kind of thing, or just saying, you're not allowed to have a phone.

Speaker 3 Taking away his posting ability.

Speaker 5 I think SBF, Sam Bankman-Free, just got sent to jail because he had been making hundreds of phone calls to journalists and talking to people.

Speaker 5 Yeah, you got in trouble.

Speaker 4 So, you know, there are ways around this.

Speaker 3 Why do you think Trump seems intent on trying this case in the court of public opinion, which has been what's happened since all of the indictments?

Speaker 5 I just, I think that this is the the only way his brain works. He only thinks in terms of publicity.

Speaker 5 And it's certainly true now that he's a politician running for re-election, but like he tries to win every battle on a minute-by-minute basis, even if it hurts his long-term prospects. And

Speaker 5 in this case, also, he has the added benefit of maybe influencing the jury pool that's out there because he knows that you need one person on your side to get a hung jury.

Speaker 4 I just think in every way, he believes the rules don't apply to him. And even the act of showing restraint and discipline

Speaker 4 the hopes of actually helping his own defense and his own ability to operate in the legal system feels like a capitulation that normal people have to do, but that does not apply to him.

Speaker 4 And so of course he's going to say whatever the fuck he wants because he's Donald Trump and he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants. And there's not much more logic to it than that.

Speaker 3 I think his audience is not the jurors or potential jurors. I think it's the electorate.
If he wins the election, he is a free man.

Speaker 3 He'll either make the DOJ drop the case, he will pardon himself if he has already been sentenced by then, which is unlikely because of the time constraint, but he might. He will commute his sentence.

Speaker 3 Like everything he's doing is about persuading, I think, the only jury that matters, which is an electorate that made him president in 2016, almost made him president in 2020, and now he wants to do it again in 24.

Speaker 3 It's pretty scary and wild, but that's where we are.

Speaker 4 Yeah, sure.

Speaker 3 He wins.

Speaker 5 He'd like to win the cases as well. You know, I mean, I think it's a both and here.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but I think it, I mean, but if he wins, the only thing that matters to him, I think, is if he, yeah, obviously he doesn't want to be convicted.

Speaker 3 But if he's convicted, all he's going to say is like, I was convicted by an unfair jury in D.C. and blah, blah, blah.
And they were out to get me. And now I'm going to win.

Speaker 3 And if I win the election, then I win.

Speaker 5 The odds of winning the election when you're sitting in jail go down a little bit, probably. He knows that.

Speaker 4 And also, I don't think he's doing the thing.

Speaker 4 Sending off a menacing tweet about the judge is not the way.

Speaker 4 Obviously, it's not the best way to persuade the American people. It doesn't show like he's trying his best to win in the court of public opinion.
He's just spouting off because he's furious.

Speaker 3 In his mind, this is his argument, right? That I'm being persecuted, that they're all coming after me. Yeah.
And that's, I mean, this, I think this, the whole race is going to be about this. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Like, there is, there's going to be all the other issues, like all the economic stuff, everything else we're talking about.

Speaker 3 Like, if Donald Trump is the nominee, from his standpoint, all he's going to talk about is this case, is 2020 again, is how they're coming after him, are the indictments, just the way that this calendar is going to play out?

Speaker 4 And to your point, before he can run in the general election, he's got to win the nomination. And all this is about keeping attention on him and focus on him.
And that is, that is, and it is popular.

Speaker 4 Oh, yes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, certainly for the primary. This is a great argument for him.

Speaker 3 So John Lauro, Trump's defense lawyer, made the case for his client on all five Sunday shows where he again tried to argue that Trump's attempted coup was merely an exercise in free speech and that he truly believed in his heart of hearts that he won.

Speaker 3 Laurel also tested out a few other novel defenses during his interviews. Let's listen.

Speaker 8 What President Trump did not do is direct Vice President Pence to do anything. He asked him in an aspirational way.

Speaker 4 If he had proof he won the state, why did he threaten the Secretary of State with

Speaker 3 a criminal charge?

Speaker 8 That wasn't a threat at all. What he was asking for is for Raffensperger to get to the truth.
That was an aspirational. Hold on one second.
That was an aspirational ask.

Speaker 4 He said the president asked him to violate the Constitution, which is another way of saying he asked him to break the law.

Speaker 8 He never said. No, that's wrong.
That's wrong.

Speaker 8 A technical violation of the Constitution is not a violation of criminal law.

Speaker 3 What do we think about John Lauro, guys? And where did he come from? Where'd Trump get this guy? Do you guys remember

Speaker 3 Tampa?

Speaker 5 He was one of the stories talks about how he was one of Tampa's most decorated defense lawyers.

Speaker 3 Tommy, I'm so glad you said that line. I laughed so hard when I I read that.
I wanted to put that up on.

Speaker 5 He defended the manager of the Pink Pony Gentleman's Club, so he's got good eye going for him.

Speaker 5 Do you guys remember when Liz Truss became the Prime Minister of England and the tabloid put up a live stream of Liz Truss versus a rotting head of lettuce? Yeah.

Speaker 5 That's what I think about every time Trump gets a new lawyer.

Speaker 3 Didn't the lettuce win? The lettuce won. Okay.

Speaker 4 So I think you're underestimating my man John LaRo,

Speaker 3 who I love.

Speaker 5 He wasn't dead on the Sunday.

Speaker 3 One of Tampa's most decorated defense lawyers.

Speaker 4 Let me tell you, Sebastian. Let me tell you, Suffee.
This is not some Yahoo. This guy went to Georgetown.

Speaker 4 This is when I fell in love with this man.

Speaker 3 So did Donald Trump Jr., right?

Speaker 3 That's our pen, pen.

Speaker 4 This is when I fell in love with this man.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 4 A guy named Ralph Paul went to an Italian restaurant in the Tampa area.

Speaker 4 He ordered a dish called shrimp and scallop verdura.

Speaker 4 He ate all the shrimp and scallops.

Speaker 3 Not enough. Not enough.
Right up your alley.

Speaker 4 Then sent it back and said, take it off the bill. This was a pasta dish.

Speaker 3 Are you sure this wasn't your dad?

Speaker 4 He's a hero to dads everywhere. So wait, then he refuses to pay, walks out on a $46 bill, goes to trial, okay?

Speaker 4 And John Laurel represents this guy. This guy gets on the stand and he says, as a veteran, I do not just sit and take unfair treatment.

Speaker 4 Then John Laurel said what I think is the most amazing sentence I've ever heard. This is about, again, a shrimp and scalp pasta.
He says, Verdura in Italian

Speaker 4 means true.

Speaker 3 You know who won?

Speaker 4 You know who won?

Speaker 3 John fucking Laura. John fucking Laura.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 4 Do not underestimate this man.

Speaker 5 Eric Trump went to Georgia. My bad.
He did run circles around the Sunday host shows, but Sunday shows.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, it's keep your head on a switch. Speaking of low bars.

Speaker 4 This isn't Rudy and then that guy at the impeachment who said Philadelphia. Yeah, yeah.
Who I still think about all the time.

Speaker 3 We'll do the deposition at my office in Philadelphia.

Speaker 4 Who talks like that?

Speaker 5 Rules. He also defended the ref, NBA ref, who was betting on games he officiated.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and there was a, I didn't know there was a whole Netflix documentary about that. That's pretty good.

Speaker 3 And Laura says in the Netflix doc, this is all from that great Washington Post story that we got all this from. He says, My strategy always coming into a case instinctually is to fight.

Speaker 3 I don't like cooperating. I like fighting.
I mean, Trump must have seen that documentary and was like, get me that guy.

Speaker 5 But that same story also was like, well, you know, he actually, you know, got into the business by doing low-profile cases and working things out behind the scenes.

Speaker 5 And then he, you know, did this famous case and fought in public. So I don't know.
I guess he's decided that he likes these bruising PR battle cases now.

Speaker 3 Would you call the Shrimp Verdura case a low-profile? I think it's that's pretty big time.

Speaker 5 Yeah, okay. It's just below impeachment.

Speaker 3 We talked a little bit about the free speech defense on Thursday's pod, though Laura seems to be expanding on that argument to say that these were all just aspirational asks and political disagreements over thorny constitutional issues.

Speaker 3 What do you guys make of that argument?

Speaker 4 Look, you can stand outside a bank and say all the money inside is yours, but you can't do a heist, even if you find a dumbass lawyer who will write a brief saying that you know they're all his diamonds.

Speaker 5 I mean, I think the broader point is: you know, you can say whatever you want and you can pursue all legal avenues to make your case, which Trump did in all the courts objecting to various counts and rule changes, et cetera.

Speaker 5 But when you create a slate of fraudulent electors, that's no longer a constitutional dispute. That's a conspiracy to commit fraud.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So

Speaker 3 I love it.

Speaker 3 To your point, so you're talking about the advice of counsel defense, which I think is a, which they're definitely, they're definitely, they seem to be going for, though, as a couple lawyers have pointed out now that would require him to uh including bill barr former attorney general that would require trump to take the stand which seems like a uh seems like a mistake for john laurel the john laurel we know would not put trump on the stage seems like a bad idea there yeah the one thing i i'll tell you if i that that has worried me a little bit is and trump has made this argument himself on on truth social a few times is that like i i wonder if their ultimate plan here is to argue that the electoral Count Act was vague enough about the vice president's role and about what happens with dual slates of electors, et cetera, et cetera, that

Speaker 3 there was some advice from counsel, but also how was anyone to know exactly what the law said?

Speaker 3 And you know it was vague because Congress last year just decided to clarify the role of the vice president by changing the legislation.

Speaker 3 You know what I'm just and I don't think that's necessarily a good argument for jurors because I think that you can like Jack Smith can bring a strong enough case.

Speaker 3 I start to worry then about the Supreme Court and how the Supreme Court treats fraud definitions and how they threw out the Bob McDonnell corruption scandal and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 That was just one thing that I thought about.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you know, sometimes it reminds me of like true crime documentaries where they get somebody basically red-handed trying to plot the murder of a spouse or something.

Speaker 4 And then, but, but they never actually say, kill my spouse. They say like, hey, would you consider disposing of this issue?

Speaker 4 Because they watch watch mob movies and they think you can like that like that works.

Speaker 4 And then they just show the video of the jury and be like, when he said dispose of the issue, he was talking about his wife's body. And then the jury's like guilty.

Speaker 4 And so a little bit of a lot of this is like, you can like, you know, posit all these theories and say he was just aspirational. They're going to have to present this to a group of people.

Speaker 4 And there's, and what the indictment makes clear is there is so much evidence that no reasonable person could

Speaker 4 interpret to mean that Trump believed any of this horseshit. So they're going to just have to make this ridiculous argument, not to Newsmax and not to Fox News, but to actual human beings.

Speaker 4 And you're right, maybe the Supreme Court saves him, but none of this is plausible.

Speaker 5 John Eastman even said he thought his argument would be rejected by the Supreme Court. So that, I think, challenged me makes your approach harder.

Speaker 5 I mean, Jamie Raskin pointed out that you have people currently in jail for counterfeiting one vote in an election.

Speaker 5 The idea that it's okay to counterfeit an entire slate of electors or steal an entire election from an entire electorate and that that's okay is just irrational.

Speaker 3 Well, as I say, my argument to my concern would be that like the real dummies here are Congress for thinking that they needed to pass legislation to clarify the vice president's role.

Speaker 3 Because if you really think that our whole Constitution was set up so that we can have all these elections, but if you happen to be the president and you have a vice president of the same party, that that vice president can just throw out all the votes and that's okay.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Like I don't think anyone believes, I don't know if anyone believes that.
I don't think there was

Speaker 3 vagueness in the law about that.

Speaker 4 And I remember we talked about this at the time, that like you can try to reform your way out of a coup in all the ways you think you should to strengthen the law and sure have at it.

Speaker 4 But in the end, this was about power and they were going to justify it anyway.

Speaker 3 But I could tell from him, his whole like violation of the Constitution and not the law thing. I was wondering why he was doing that.

Speaker 3 And I do think that's part of the reason he's trying to say like, well, this was a constitutional dispute and maybe it was violation, but that's handled by the Supreme Court and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 5 They just want to make it all political speech, which is protected under the First Amendment.

Speaker 3 Political speech and political argument. That's what they're going to end up being like, this is not a crime.
This is politics. This is what happens in politics.

Speaker 3 So, Mike Pence said over the weekend, again, that Trump didn't just ask him to pause the certification of the election, which is what the lawyers are arguing.

Speaker 3 He specifically demanded that he overturn the election. Pence also said he'll testify if asked.
Lauro responded by saying Pence would be the defense's best witness.

Speaker 3 Tommy, why do you think he said that?

Speaker 5 Because he has no better argument. So, what they're trying to say is

Speaker 5 they're saying Trump, his ultimate ask was to delay the vote, not to throw out the vote. That might be true, but that came after Mike Pence repeatedly rejected his request to throw out the votes.

Speaker 5 So they're just trying to, they're really kind of hanging this one on the technicality here. My ultimate ask

Speaker 5 was just delay the vote. And Mike Pence is like, yeah, that's not at all true.
That's not what happens.

Speaker 3 It's only true if the word ultimate means final ask.

Speaker 4 Right. And but also there's other strange, like throughout, right? There's one moment in the indictment where the other, they were like, oh, actually, you can

Speaker 4 forget overturning it. Just say you're sending them back to the states.
That was another request that they made.

Speaker 4 There were so many different ways they were trying to get Pence to not certify the election. And every single time, Pence said that he didn't have the election.

Speaker 5 Yeah, and Pence got asked on CBS and he goes, quote was, that's not what happened.

Speaker 3 It's pretty clear.

Speaker 3 I think the other thing they want to do with Pence is have him on the stand and say to him, you have said before that what Trump did is a violation of his oath of office, but you don't think it was criminal.

Speaker 3 Why don't you think it was criminal? Because remember, Pence wasn't sure about the indictment at first, and he has all those quotes.

Speaker 3 And Pence was out there after the election floating a whole bunch of theories that, yeah, maybe there was voter fraud in the states.

Speaker 3 So they're going to say, even you believed there was voter fraud in the states.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I do believe that you can't ask a witness in a trial to say whether or not you think the jury should convict them. So there's some, they have to just ask him about what happened.
But yeah,

Speaker 4 I do think it's like clearly Laura is trying to, you know, there's a kind of whatever bravado thing about saying, like, Pence would be our best witness, not our worst, not the guy that could confirm all the crimes in exactly his state of mind.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but it does, it does totally go to the like this was just a political disagreement between two men, you know, and and and Donald Trump could have been right or it could have been wrong, you know, but it was criminalized those in America, right?

Speaker 5 A cross-examination, too.

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3 Mike Pence popping up on the Sunday shows was a reminder that other Republicans are still running for president, though the reaction that Pence got in New Hampshire to his potential turn as a star witness against Trump wasn't exactly positive.

Speaker 7 Why'd you sell out the people?

Speaker 7 Why didn't you stand? Why didn't you uphold the constituents? He said,

Speaker 3 We couldn't see it, but it was just a guy holding his dunkins, going, Trader, Trader.

Speaker 4 Thank you for asking. I do love Concord.

Speaker 3 I mean, ha ha ha.

Speaker 3 What is he doing? Meanwhile, Chris Christie went to Ukraine and barely anyone noticed. Ron DeSantis was mocked by the Trump campaign and others for his small crowds in Iowa.

Speaker 3 And while he hasn't gone as far as Pence or Christie, he did finally acknowledge that at least some of Trump's election fraud conspiracies weren't true. Let's listen.

Speaker 11 Yes or no question. Do you think the 2020 election was stolen? I've said many times the election is what it is.
All those theories that were put out did not prove to be true.

Speaker 11 But what I've also said is the way you conduct a good election that people have confidence in, you don't change the rules in the middle of the game.

Speaker 12 So you recently said the election is what it is. So can we just put this to bed so you don't have to be asked about this a million more times? Yes or no, did Donald Trump lose the 2020 election?

Speaker 13 Whoever puts their hand on the Bible on January 20th every four years is the winner. After the election they were talking about Maduro

Speaker 13 stealing votes on the voting machines or whatever and none of those theories proved to be true. But at the end of the day, you know, Donald Trump helped facilitate that whole set of circumstances.

Speaker 12 Okay, but respectfully, you did not clearly answer that question. And if you can't give a yes or no on whether or not Trump lost, then how can you...

Speaker 14 No, of course he lost.

Speaker 12 Trump lost the 2020 election.

Speaker 13 Joe Biden's the president.

Speaker 3 I love that Ron Santis' plan is to just give like extremely basic civics lessons and like basic facts. Like the person who gets inaugurated is the president.
Joe Biden is the president.

Speaker 4 it's incredible.

Speaker 4 It is incredible though like the contortions this person is doing just like as if he's three points ahead.

Speaker 4 He's running he's running like he's ahead. Like he's just trying to protect his lead by being super careful and not giving and not giving the base anything they don't want to hear.

Speaker 5 Also, the argument was that Dominion voting systems had ties to Hugo Chavez who died in 2013.

Speaker 3 I was wondering about Middletown.

Speaker 3 Get it right. Look, I get what we, you know, we talked, I think our last pod about this,

Speaker 3 that in the New York Times poll, right? There's the 37% of the MAGA base, there's the Persuadables, then there's the 25% that are

Speaker 3 never Trumpers.

Speaker 3 And clearly, DeSantis is looking at the Persuadables and the Never Trumpers, and is like, the Never Trumpers believe that Joe Biden won, and the Persuadables believe that Donald Trump won.

Speaker 3 So I'm going to have to

Speaker 3 straddle both.

Speaker 3 And his idea for straddling both is being like, so Joe Biden definitely won, but there was some mischief in that election, but he won but we didn't fight hard enough but i'm gonna go to washing we're gonna storm he said somewhere else we're gonna storm washington on january 20th we're gonna slit the throats of the bureaucrats you hear that yeah i slit the throats the bureaucrats you know the venn diagram you need though is the people who want uh a president who doesn't look like a weak loser who can answer a question directly like oh i think circle potentially and like she's such a petulant whiny little fucking baby about it too like oh you're met you're annoyed you're getting asked this question well that's because you walked into this trap that Donald Trump laid two years ago and got you all to walk down this path where you questioned the results of the elections.

Speaker 5 And now you've lost the ability to call this guy a loser. You knew you were going to run for president, lay the groundwork, and call him a fucking loser.

Speaker 3 It's so meatball.

Speaker 4 It's so fucking dumb. It's also just like

Speaker 3 he looks like a meatball.

Speaker 5 That was the best nickname.

Speaker 4 It's also like, oh, I can't stand being distracted by this major liability for my opponent. Let's get back to talking about my failing campaign.

Speaker 5 Let's get back to attacking Bud Light in the Florida pension programs or whatever nonsense you're talking about that day.

Speaker 4 If we're so focused on Trump's indictment, we don't have time for your many questions about why I'm unappealing to any person I meet.

Speaker 3 Now, now, now wait. He did get some shit for his crowds.
Maybe his answer wasn't great, but he got some less horrible news from the New York Times Iowa poll.

Speaker 3 He's losing to Trump 44.20 in that poll compared to 54.17 in the national poll. Tell me, what do you make of that? I think it's good.

Speaker 5 Now, first of all, I do like that our friend Tim Miller single-handedly created a terrible narrative for Ron DeSantis by posting a photo where he sort of went to the top of the steps at Spanky's livestock auction house and took a photo of how empty the crowd

Speaker 5 now. In Ron's defense, Tama, Iowa is like 3,000 people.
It's in the middle of nowhere, and he had other events that day.

Speaker 3 And none of them showed up.

Speaker 5 But it did suggest that your campaign staff thought that more people would be arriving when you pick a venue that big. It's like rule number one of advance.

Speaker 5 But I do think that poll shows, hope is the wrong word, but it does show that that he's doing better in Iowa than he is nationally.

Speaker 5 And it suggests that they might be getting a little traction in Iowa where they've been running ads and actually campaigning it out there.

Speaker 5 It could be that Iowa conservatives just don't like Trump and never have, but DeSantis has a 77% approval rating. He's seen as more moral than Trump, more likable than Trump.

Speaker 3 It's wild. Yeah, no.

Speaker 5 47% of Trump supporters in Iowa said they would consider other candidates. So it shows there's a little more room to maneuver in Iowa.

Speaker 3 We'll see. And then 40% say in Iowa say DeSantis is the best candidate to beat Joe Biden, and just under 50% say that for Trump.

Speaker 3 But nationally, Trump beats him by 30 points on that measure of who's the best to go against Biden.

Speaker 3 I was just trying to look in the crosstabs of that poll for any details that, you know, months from now when Ron DeSantis is suddenly the GOP nominee and we look back at all of our old Padzave Americas and we're making fun of him, if we'll be wrong.

Speaker 3 I still don't think we will be, but it's there's a few things in there, which what happens in Iowa, right?

Speaker 4 Where like if if you're there all the time and you're on the ground like we've seen it you know well and i was i just also think this is less about ron de santis showing strength and more there's a little bit more weakness for trump and i do think that like if we do look back on these pods and i and i hope we do and i hope we just you know come back and like we listened to all the share of memory the primary ones in 2020.

Speaker 3 yeah no

Speaker 4 in 2016 came to 1600 this is a this is a every single pod the second you hear it just think it was a brown banana it's now or never that's it

Speaker 4 once it's over it's over don't go back never go back you can make some good banana bread with the brown ones though yeah sure okay uh but uh or a smoothie i do like if you were if you were trying to like come up with or a smoothie or a smoothie or a smoothie but to santa saying yeah trump lost the first time he's asked as opposed to the fifth time i don't know it's going to really like move the needle for him or for like the overall uh uh republican race but Maybe there is some logic to kind of, if what you're seeing is, hey, maybe there's softness there that's happening because of the events of Trump being charged for multiple felonies and facing six months of endless trials and scrutiny.

Speaker 4 Like, let's hang back, let him hang himself without me pissing off the people I need to win. I don't think it's a good idea.
I don't think it's right.

Speaker 5 But so, I mean, the hopeful sign here is ostensibly Iowa voters are the ones who've been paying more attention, getting courted, seeing ads, seeing candidates in person.

Speaker 5 So, getting a little traction there is a good thing. I don't think, I'm not ready to count DeSantis out.

Speaker 5 I think what I've learned about him is he is a less talented politician than the hype machine set him up to be, but he's still sitting on a ton of money.

Speaker 5 He is quite possibly the most flawed opponent in political history, and like stranger things have happened. It means only August 7th.

Speaker 5 I mean, we're, yes, we were getting later, but the first debate hasn't happened yet. The first, you know, like, as you guys remember, things get crazy in December in Iowa.

Speaker 5 But I just do quickly want to give Trump's team a shout-out for one of the better quotes I've seen this cycle about that DeSantis photo of him in this livestock auction venue, which is: tiny crowd for Ron DeSantis in a livestock auction venue.

Speaker 5 Nobody is buying what that heifer is selling.

Speaker 5 I mean, also, stop wearing clothes with your fucking name on them, Ron.

Speaker 4 He's.

Speaker 5 Why does everything say Ron DeSantis on it?

Speaker 3 Do you think people don't know who you are?

Speaker 4 I think when people just wear their own merch all the time, it's

Speaker 5 sorry, it's just really driving me crazy.

Speaker 3 Awful. Also,

Speaker 3 in the

Speaker 3 New York Times write-up of their poll,

Speaker 3 they interviewed

Speaker 3 some of the poll respondents, and one of them said, you know, I'm with DeSantis now, but every indictment makes me lean more towards Trump, which is just so like, it's like two on the nose, but I'm just like, okay.

Speaker 3 The other weird thing. Our house is on fire.

Speaker 4 Quick, all the valuables inside.

Speaker 3 The other thing I didn't get from the poll is, I don't know, it's just the way they ask questions. This is why you can't pay too close attention to polls.

Speaker 3 So yeah, you said, Tommy, 47% of Trump's supporters said they'd consider other candidates.

Speaker 3 In the same poll, 97% of Trump's supporters say they support him strongly, which is just, I guess that's just like, I'm considering other people, but I'll always love Donald Trump.

Speaker 3 Maybe that, maybe that's it. Sure.

Speaker 4 I also think like this, you know, we've, we've talked about like polls that show like, oh, they'll never support this person. 43% say they'll never support that person.
And

Speaker 4 people are very bad at knowing what they'll will or will never, will or won't do.

Speaker 4 I remember like Bill Clinton famously had a poll where the majority of Democratic voters said they would never support him. And then the next thing we knew, he was the nominee.

Speaker 4 Not us, we were children, but the people at the time.

Speaker 3 I think that there could be a kind of critical mass of fears about what happens if Trump becomes the nominee and then they're going into a bunch of trials that make him completely unelectable to the public and then all of a sudden there's this chaotic but if not him who and they're all kind of standing there holding democrat like panic yeah yes absolutely absolutely i mean what you need is it could change slowly and all of a sudden you need like that new york times poll or a few polls of that caliber to suddenly actually no you'd need it to break through the right-wing media ecosystem you can't if it's just if it's just a new york times poll that's not going to work but But let's pretend, just for the sake of it, that suddenly there's a Fox News poll out that shows that suddenly DeSantis is tied with Biden or beating Biden, but Trump is now down five, 10 points on Biden, and now he's at 25%.

Speaker 3 Now we're seeing him in the courtroom.

Speaker 3 And all the Republicans running for president, because they're petrified at this point, that they're going to lose and they're wasted all their time, are at the next debate.

Speaker 3 And all they're doing is just throwing haymakers at Trump and saying, he can't win, he can't win, he can't win.

Speaker 3 And suddenly he can't win becomes this echo throughout the right-wing media echo chamber, and then they all do it. I still don't think that's going to happen, but that would, that would be the.

Speaker 4 It's sort of like, yeah,

Speaker 4 it's possible, and it's not going to happen. Then all of a sudden it could.
And then there's this, just these, just a scramble up a greasy poll by these like six people who are also greasy.

Speaker 4 Also pretty greasy.

Speaker 3 The poll and the poll and the people.

Speaker 4 They come with their own grease, these guys.

Speaker 5 What you're describing is basically what happened on the Democratic side in 2020, right? Like the Iowa caucuses were a null result thanks to the counting, thanks to the shadow app, which we designed.

Speaker 5 Bernie wins New Hampshire. There's a big electability freakout, and then Joe Biden wins South Carolina, and we're off to the races with the pandemic.

Speaker 3 The only difference is Joe Biden didn't clown himself as much like Ron DeSantis did for nine years.

Speaker 5 He absolutely did not, but he, the campaign struggled for a long time.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it struggled. It struggled.
The difference is it struggled kind of quietly. The other thing, too, is if you so Trump's at 44, DeSantis is at 20.

Speaker 3 If you think back to 2016 in Iowa, there were nine candidates. Ted Cruz wins with 27.6%.

Speaker 3 Trump comes in second with 24.3. Rubio with 23.1.
And then everyone else is in single digits. Now there's eight candidates and Trump's already at 44.

Speaker 3 So it does like, he could, he could lose a bunch and still.

Speaker 4 Well, there just has to be, like, they're just waiting around. There has to be

Speaker 3 a surprise, like a monumental collapse. But

Speaker 3 it could happen.

Speaker 5 And on their side, like, Iowa has not historically picked the ultimate candidate for Republicans.

Speaker 5 New Hampshire, it's like you can have the crossover voting from Democrats, so it's taken a little less seriously.

Speaker 5 Then you get to South Carolina, it's like, all right, now some real conservatives are going to vote, kids. Like, get out of the way, John McCain, get out of the way.

Speaker 4 Well, there was, there's also, there's a, there's something in common between Ted Cruz and Rondo Santis, which is, which is, you know, Ted Cruz.

Speaker 3 Picking issues that no one cares about. Yeah, but also like Ted Cruz.

Speaker 4 Ted Cruz, Ted Cruz wins in Iowa, and New Hampshire's like, oh, yuck.

Speaker 4 And like, no, thank you. We're not doing what they did.
That's some fucking Midwest shit. No way.

Speaker 3 Ew.

Speaker 5 It's like dipping everything in ranch.

Speaker 3 Yeah. No, thanks.
Thank you.

Speaker 4 Deep-fried nonsense.

Speaker 3 Speaking of future frontrunners, I just want to do a quick World Us segment here. Tommy, did Chris Christie end the war in Ukraine?

Speaker 5 I don't think he did.

Speaker 5 You know, it's an interesting strategy to make a high-profile visit to a foreign country to talk about a policy that's deeply unpopular within the Republican primary electorate.

Speaker 3 But look, I give him credit for it. Do you think Love gave him that advice? I don't know know that he, did you? I don't know.
Was that okay?

Speaker 5 But he did the whole like train from Poland thing to get to Kiev and he went to Bucha where there were horrible war crimes and atrocities committed. I don't know.
Look, support for Ukraine is

Speaker 5 dropping pretty quickly in the U.S. So Chris Christie going out there and waving that flag is, I think,

Speaker 3 there's some value.

Speaker 3 Didn't he gift Zelensky something?

Speaker 5 Yeah, what did he bring? He brought like copywritten lyrics.

Speaker 4 It's My Life by Von Dovi. And honestly, I can't make fun of it.
I think it's the sweetest thing. He's like, I brought you something.
It's from my favorite person in America. And

Speaker 4 it's about living your life.

Speaker 5 The backstory was like, there was a video of some town in Ukraine where people were sandbagging, preparing for the invasion, listening to that song. And so that got in his head.

Speaker 5 And then he went to John Bon Jovi and he told him he was going over. And John Bon Jovi like had, you know, FedExed him like handwritten lyrics or something.
It's a very nice story.

Speaker 5 It's just super corny.

Speaker 4 And when

Speaker 3 Dan's out, he's co-hosting with you, Chris Christie.

Speaker 4 What is that happening?

Speaker 3 He's our fifth host.

Speaker 3 Sean Bond.

Speaker 5 He's going to host.

Speaker 3 In another example of how far these candidates will go to get some attention who aren't Donald Trump, DeSantis has tentatively agreed to debate Gavin Newsom on Fox News with Sean Hannity as the moderator.

Speaker 3 They're currently arguing over the rules. I honestly haven't been able to follow the back and forth on Twitter.

Speaker 3 But it's supposed to take place this November, I guess. Yeah.
So

Speaker 3 there will be one big event this November.

Speaker 4 Newsome proposed two dates. DeSantis proposed four.
Yes. So basically, Newsom said, I'll debate you.
Sean Hannity can be the moderator. No audience.
Four-minute open statements. Mano-y mano.

Speaker 4 And then DeSantis comes back and says, I want an audience. And I don't want opening statements.
I want two-minute videos that Fox

Speaker 4 hype videos. And so this was Newsom's statement.

Speaker 4 He said, DeSantis's counter-proposal is littered with crutches to hide his insecurity and ineptitude, swapping opening statements with a hype video, cutting down the time need he needs to be on stage, adding cheat notes and a cheering section.

Speaker 4 Ron should be able to stand at his own two feet. It's no wonder Trump is kicking his ass.
That is awesome. At that moment, it's like, fucking, you know what, Gavin? Debate him.

Speaker 3 Let's go.

Speaker 3 Let's fucking go.

Speaker 5 I'm in. I think this is a win-win.
I was hoping one of you would take the other side because

Speaker 3 you know who I bet would take the other side who we need here right now?

Speaker 4 Dan Pfeiffer. Oh, no.
I don't like disagreeing with Dan.

Speaker 3 Famously anti-Fox. Well, we're all anti-Fox.
Oh, yeah, no. We're

Speaker 3 Fox. Yeah, no, we're three big Fox fans.
We all tried out for Tucker's slot. Here's my pitch.

Speaker 5 DeSantis has to do something drastic to break through. This is something different.
He has to look like a fighter.

Speaker 3 This might help.

Speaker 5 Look, this thing is completely stacked in Ron DeSantis' favor with Sean Hannity as the moderator, right? So I don't know.

Speaker 5 I'm like, if you have to take a week off the trail to prep, yes, that would suck, but maybe you just fold this into the debate prep.

Speaker 5 And then for Gavin, like Gavin, there's nothing in the world that he wants to do more than physically fight Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 3 And this is the closest he can get.

Speaker 4 Well, it's also, there's a little bit in which there's sort of no losing for Gavin Newsom because he's walking into a debate where everyone knows it's being moderated by fucking Sean Hannity.

Speaker 4 So it's like, he does okay. That's amazing.
He gets bullied. He gets like, he gets like tag team by Hannity and

Speaker 4 DeSantis. It's like he went on enemy turf.
It's sort of like a win-win for him, too.

Speaker 3 I think, yeah, I cannot argue against it being

Speaker 3 a great move for Gavin Newsome. I think he has nothing to lose.
The expectations are going to be low. He did great with Hannity when he was one-on-one with Hannity.

Speaker 3 And his whole brand, you know, if he's going to run for president at some point, is this like Democrats need to fight back, right? We need to take the fight right to Republicans.

Speaker 5 Leave our safe spaces.

Speaker 3 And I'm going to be the guy who's not afraid to fight with Republicans.

Speaker 3 And within a primary context in the Democratic Party, where negative partisanship is a powerful motivator, if not the most powerful motivator, that's going to help him.

Speaker 3 I could argue that it's not the greatest idea for DeSantis. It will get him attention.
It does show the basom fight, but like he's not running a fantasy campaign against Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 3 He's running in a primary that he is losing very badly. Like he should, he should go try try to win the primary.

Speaker 3 It just looks, it's like, it's like, wait, are you debating this random California governor? Get back on the fucking trail. But like Trump's beating you by 40 points.

Speaker 5 Short of beating up the sketch artist in Trump's courtroom, like I don't know how he's going to get covered.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no,

Speaker 4 that's not a bad idea.

Speaker 3 That might be a better idea.

Speaker 5 Write that one down. Right.

Speaker 4 Yeah, he should just be in the background of the sketches.

Speaker 3 With

Speaker 3 DeSantis on his best run on.

Speaker 3 You know who loses this?

Speaker 5 Gavin's staff. They are going to be doing so much prep to prepare him for this.

Speaker 3 Because you know that Gavin is going to go into this thinking, too. That, like, it's a, I'm going to, I'm going to beat him on the policy details.

Speaker 3 And that's not going to, that's not what's going to be.

Speaker 5 Righteous facts.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 3 We've talked about this a bit in the context of the Republican primary, but we are headed into a 2024 campaign where the likely Republican nominee could be facing seven trials, four criminal, three civil, that he is already making a central part of his message.

Speaker 3 Politico, just this morning, called it the courtroom campaign.

Speaker 4 I loved it.

Speaker 3 They said if 2020 was the Zoom campaign, which like, was it? I don't remember that being the Zoom campaign.

Speaker 4 I don't remember anything about 2020.

Speaker 3 Same. And this is the courtroom campaign.
How do you navigate that if you are Joe Biden's campaign?

Speaker 4 Can I, first of all, just say that I just want to be honest and say that I lost track of one of the civil trials.

Speaker 4 I actually thought it was six and I actually forgot one of the two federal civil trials.

Speaker 3 So there's one that survives. Eugene Carroll won.

Speaker 3 Eugene Carroll the sequel.

Speaker 3 Those are we counting that? That's what I don't know. This is what I'm saying.
And then there's the fraud one, and then there's the business fraud one.

Speaker 4 Okay. I feel like there's one other fraud.

Speaker 3 I think there is. There might be.
Oh, is it the truth social fraud one?

Speaker 3 Are we counting that?

Speaker 4 I think there's another fraud. There might be the paradigm.

Speaker 3 Yeah, anyway. I don't know.
And then the four criminal, of course, the three that already happened, and we're all waiting on Georgia.

Speaker 15 Great.

Speaker 3 Anyway,

Speaker 3 you're sitting in Wilmington, Delaware, which is where the campaign is. Right.
Or maybe you're in the White House. What are you doing about all this?

Speaker 5 This is hard. I mean, I think that Trump is going to say that Joe Biden is weaponizing DOJ against me.
This is all political persecution. I don't think you want to help him with that.

Speaker 5 I think everyone in the country is going to hear about these cases. You know, I don't think Joe Biden's the best messenger for delivering criticisms along these lines.
So I don't know.

Speaker 5 I think you probably, you criticize Trump on about everything else and you focus on your positive message. And I don't know, but like, it's not a very satisfying answer.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 It was a poll that came out today, what, that like 71% of people have heard little to nothing about the Inflation Reduction Act. So he's going to go out on the campaign trail.

Speaker 4 Anytime he says anything that touches on any of this, that will be news.

Speaker 4 But he's going to be trying to make, he's going to be trying to counter program these trials with some kind of a positive message and trying to find a way to connect the positive story to the Trump negative story.

Speaker 4 And I think there's a kind of message in there about like, I'm delivering for you.

Speaker 4 He's focused on himself and finding ways to like make news that ties you to Trump while getting some of the positive economic and policy

Speaker 4 stories into it. I don't know what else to do.
I mean, you can even make

Speaker 5 a character argument against Trump or a culture argument against Trump that isn't based on these trials, too, right? I mean, you can do the whole thing.

Speaker 5 It's really hard to talk about what your own DOJ is doing.

Speaker 4 There's never been a, this is an unprecedented situation. So they're figuring, you know.

Speaker 3 Yes, for sure. I think you absolutely cannot comment on the trials or the indictments, right? I do think, I've thought about this for a while, I think that like he has to

Speaker 3 just say what he has said in the past about this, which is that like Trump is a threat to democracy and this election is about whether democracy survives or not, just like he said it in the midterms.

Speaker 3 And then when they say, and of course Trump is going to say he politicized this and he's,

Speaker 3 they just said today in their filing, right, that Joe Biden capitalized on the indictment just because of the fucking dark branding thing. So they're going to say it anyway, no matter what.

Speaker 3 They're also, by the way, going to be out there saying Joe Biden's a criminal, his family's criminal, and he should be impeached.

Speaker 3 So you're going to have one side saying Joe Biden's a criminal, and Joe Biden can't say Trump's a criminal, but he certainly can say what he has said before about his being a threat to democracy, what he did on January 6th, what he did trying to steal the election.

Speaker 3 And I can imagine there's going to be a lot of debates in the White House about this. I'm sure the lawyers are going to be nervous about it, right?

Speaker 3 Because like how close you're going to get to commenting on the trial. I'm sure there's going to be some political folks.

Speaker 3 And look, I think on paid advertising, the paid advertising is going to be like healthcare, economics, IRA trying to break through.

Speaker 3 Joe Biden's not going to break through with any of that shit in the press

Speaker 3 because this is going to be about Trump all the time. It's always about Trump when he runs.
Now that he's going to be facing all these criminal trials, it's going to be even more about Trump.

Speaker 3 So when Joe Biden's out there, like he's going to get covered when he talks about Donald Trump. And your message about Donald Trump then becomes super important.

Speaker 3 And I think you have to get to the core of

Speaker 3 what will honestly happen if Donald Trump wins this election, having faced all of these indictments? Like, what does that say? What is he going to do? What is that going to mean?

Speaker 3 Like, I think you have to be honest about that.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
It's tough. It's really tough.
I don't think voters care about.

Speaker 3 That's why it's like, I don't know.

Speaker 4 I think voters care about. I feel like it's like,

Speaker 4 you're trying to figure out what the con, like, you're saying, like, oh, that's what the contrast should be. And, like, maybe that's right.

Speaker 4 Or maybe you just trust that the coverage of Donald Trump being on trial is going to be so awful and so ever-present that it's not your job to kind of layer on top of it.

Speaker 4 Like, I think of the moment when, I mean, Joe Biden got so much coverage when there was that split screen. He's in Kentucky with Mitch McConnell talking about bridges.

Speaker 4 He didn't have to say a word about Donald Trump for that to be the story.

Speaker 4 You know, Donald Trump is pulling out him selling a dark brand and mug.

Speaker 4 But like, there have been a lot of moments where Joe Biden, just by being in the split screen, has made an argument without him having to say Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. I don't know.

Speaker 5 I mean, this whole debate is going to be so frustrating because you have a conversation happening that's getting picked up by all all the press about whether a judge in Washington, D.C.

Speaker 5 can rule on this case fairly because it's a liberal venue. And then you have another case in Florida where the judge presiding over it was literally appointed by Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 And it's like, oak, what? Right? How are we having this debate right now?

Speaker 5 I do think, you know, I am very worried about what you said earlier, John, about the effort to both sides this that's happening in Congress right now and the degree to which in conservative media and the sort of like Joe Rogan stratosphere, the Hunter Hunter Biden allegations are breaking through.

Speaker 5 Like, I saw a clip of Rogan the other day talking on the show about how he actually thinks the Biden family is more corrupt.

Speaker 5 And, you know, he might be a lost cause at this point, and he might be, you know, demographically, you know, kind of like an old, rich white guy from Texas, like, probably not going to get him.

Speaker 5 But it's a big audience that's going to hear this kind of stuff. And I think it's pretty easy to convince people that actually all politicians are corrupt and bad.
So kind of who cares?

Speaker 5 Which is where I think you ultimately want to make an argument about who's going to help you the most.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 I went through a whole midterm election and had done all those focus groups, and I will tell you that, like, the voters will sit there.

Speaker 3 And if you ask them what matters, they're not going to say this trial matters. They're not going to say all this shit matters.
They're going to say economic concerns matter to them for sure.

Speaker 3 But having made that argument through the midterms and then watched Joe Biden make democracy very much an issue and made January 6th an issue and made all this an issue and then seeing the results of the election and seeing how election deniers uniformly did poorly, did worse than other Republicans, and seeing that that actually got like a lot of,

Speaker 3 it wasn't just a base turnout thing. It was a persuasion thing that there was a lot of sort of swing voters who were like, they just needed to be reminded.

Speaker 3 And I sort of worry that the coverage in the mainstream media to your both sides issues will not do our job for us on this or do the Biden campaign's job for them.

Speaker 3 I was surprised to see like last week, the New York Times, and it was a very good piece, but the headline was like, free speech versus election fraud and the trial, free speech on trial.

Speaker 3 Like that argument is going to get into the mainstream press.

Speaker 4 I just, I think Joe Biden has to obviously make an argument about how Donald Trump is a threat to democracy.

Speaker 4 I'm just trying to think about how Joe Biden can make a positive case for his accomplishments and what he wants to do in a second term that will be interesting enough to break through.

Speaker 4 It may be impossible. Maybe there's no way to do it.

Speaker 4 But I think there have been moments when Joe Biden's been able to do it in the past, and he does it by pointing out that while he's fighting and passing and legislating and doing executive orders and making actual positive changes, this is what Donald Trump is focused on, right?

Speaker 4 Like there's something, there's some value to doing that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. It's just a couple more TRIPS Act events.

Speaker 3 It's going to be complicated.

Speaker 4 Again,

Speaker 4 I pitch this in our company, Slack. I think we got to start

Speaker 4 getting stuff in the background of old episodes of Suits. Everyone's watching.
Apparently, the whole country has just decided they're watching fucking suits. If you're not watching Suits, be careful.

Speaker 4 Someone's going to knock on your door and say, hey, you love this country? Because you don't seem to be watching suits and you don't have to watch suits. This is America.

Speaker 4 But it makes us worry about you that you're not watching suits because we're all watching suits. Old episodes of suits.

Speaker 3 I have an idea. Ooh.
Joe Biden and the cast of Suits sit down and they do a retrospective.

Speaker 5 That's a good idea. I love that.

Speaker 3 Re-watchables kind of thing. That's great.
Especially their most prominent cast member.

Speaker 5 It is very fun.

Speaker 3 Yeah, she nearly toppled the monarchy.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.
That's the power of suits.

Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 Suits has already almost suits.

Speaker 3 One authoritarian dad.

Speaker 3 One to go.

Speaker 5 The suits run Hollywood.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Let's get suits on this.

Speaker 4 I honestly,

Speaker 4 I don't know what suits is. I just know what they wear.

Speaker 3 Is it lawyers?

Speaker 3 It's one of those shows where I've seen the pilot three times now. I've seen the pilot's episode.
And one of them is a lawyer and one of them is not a lot. I've never seen the pilot.

Speaker 4 But one of them says they're a lawyer.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 4 But they're wearing suits.

Speaker 5 It is fun that all these people like Jason Miller and Susie Wiles and all these Trump staffers who are part of the indictment are going to have to be on the campaign and comment on it.

Speaker 5 That's even more complicated.

Speaker 3 Again, they're going to testify and then they're going to have to, and then Trump's going to see that they testified because he's going to see the transcripts and then he's going to be on the campaign plane with them and then he's going to throw them out of the plane.

Speaker 3 Not enough catch up in the world.

Speaker 4 Also, I like that Mike Pence was at,

Speaker 4 all these guys are so afraid to just answer a question. Mike Pence was asked, like, will you testify? Will you testify? And he said, I have no plans to testify.
It's not a party.

Speaker 3 You're not hosting an event.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's not a baby shower. Yeah, you know, of course, you don't have a planned, it's not a planned thing.
You haven't been asked to testify yet.

Speaker 5 I like when he also got asked about whether he kept the journal and how many notes he was taking. He's like, I would on occasion write things in my calendar.
It's like, oh, did you, Mike?

Speaker 3 I think it's a little more comprehensive than that.

Speaker 4 Remember when there was that senator, Nelson, not Bill Nelson, the other Nelson?

Speaker 3 No, oh, no. No, you're thinking of Bob Graham.
I'm thinking of Bob Graham, yes.

Speaker 3 He ran for president.

Speaker 4 Yes, he ran for president. And then he wrote down everything, and it had these endless journals with tiny little notes of every single thing he'd ever done.
And guess what?

Speaker 3 He did not do well in the primary. Did not work for him.
Ran for president.

Speaker 3 The intense detailed journaling did not work for Bob Graham.

Speaker 4 You know what the twist is? That's kind of interesting to me?

Speaker 4 So one of the Mike Pence was asked about what would happen if he testified or what happened. And he says that like, I, you know,

Speaker 4 I will tell the truth and uphold my oath to the Constitution and Almighty God.

Speaker 3 Yeah, he's crossing the Delaware a lot in these statements.

Speaker 4 He absolutely is.

Speaker 4 But I just like thinking that after all these years of Mike Pence using religion to justify every fucking heinous thing, there's a little part of him that's like, I can't lie in the stand.

Speaker 4 God will see.

Speaker 3 And I think that's cool. Yeah, no, he believes it.
Whatever. Yeah, whether it is.

Speaker 4 I think that's cool too.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's his thing.

Speaker 3 Anyway, we're going to talk more about this, I'm sure.

Speaker 3 Because we're going to have seven trials to go through, or maybe there's six, who knows? Okay, two quick housekeeping items before we head to break.

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Speaker 3 The Love It or Leave It Errors Tour is back at Dynasty Typewriter this Thursday. It's 7.30 p.m.
It's an incredible lineup. Wow.
Do you know who's in it? I know.

Speaker 4 Maria Bramford, Ike Barenholtz, Ian Harvey, and Bridger Winger. That's right.

Speaker 3 It was Tell your hinge date you have to work late and head to cricket.com/slash events to get your tickets now. Nice.
Just read what's in front of me.

Speaker 3 When we come back, Tommy talks with Desiree Tims, the founder and CEO of Innovation Ohio, about the big abortion rights vote happening there today and where the fight goes next.

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Speaker 5 A critical fight for abortion rights and democracy is playing out today in Ohio, where people are voting on a ballot measure called Issue One.

Speaker 5 Joining us today to explain this hugely consequential fight is Desiree Tims, the president and CEO of Innovation Ohio. Desiree, thanks for doing the show.

Speaker 17 Thanks so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Speaker 5 So let's just start with the basics. What are folks in Ohio voting on this week?

Speaker 17 So Republicans in Ohio have pulled off the, what I call the ultimate scam, that is the special election, which is today, August 8th. Now, a few weeks ago,

Speaker 17 meaning weeks, because we have not had a ton of time to prepare for this election, we had roughly 85 to 90 days, but we knew that this was coming.

Speaker 17 Republicans decided to push for an August special election to increase the threshold for passing constitutional amendments in Ohio from a simple majority, 50 plus one, like the way democracy has always worked in this country, to 60%.

Speaker 17 And they did that because they watched what happened in other states as they took up abortion ballot measures, and they saw 57%, 58%, 55%.

Speaker 17 And Republicans thought, aha, let's make our requirements 60%.

Speaker 17 That way we can make sure that we continue to ban abortion here in Ohio. That's what we're up against right now.

Speaker 5 And so I guess the Republican position on abortion rights is that it's an issue for the states, but only in states where proponents of abortion access can get a super majority.

Speaker 5 So that's what we're saying now.

Speaker 17 That's exactly right. And they have a pro-life movement and air quotes on pro-life, right,

Speaker 17 funding this campaign. And so they tried to change the rules.

Speaker 17 uh offer a very last minute election we don't even have enough poll workers uh in every area of the state because it was such a last minute effort uh to pull off this special election for a very special scam.

Speaker 17 But we are emboldened and fighting back, and really thrilled with some of the early vote numbers that we have coming in.

Speaker 5 Well, I want to ask you about the funding question because it's a lot of money coming from out of state, it seems like, from conservatives.

Speaker 5 But in addition to raising the threshold from 50% to simple majority, as you said, to 60%,

Speaker 5 issue one would also require petitioners to get a certain number of signatures from every single county in Ohio. So there's 88 counties in Ohio.

Speaker 5 Currently, you have to hit this signature threshold and I believe only 44 counties. What would that change mean for grassroots organizations like yours?

Speaker 17 So I want to be very clear to all of the listeners. It is already hard to change the Constitution.
Do you know how hard it is to track?

Speaker 17 grandma and Annie and Johnny down in the parking lot to sign a petition, right? It is already hard work. So what they are trying to do now is say, hey, right now you can get 44 counties on

Speaker 17 to collect petitions to turn in, to change and make a constitutional amendment. What the Republicans have also done with this is say, look, we're going to require all 88 counties.

Speaker 17 So that means that one county, one county can stop the entire state.

Speaker 17 That means everyone who lives in Governor DeWine, Republican,

Speaker 17 has in his budget that 85% of all Ohioans live in metropolitan areas. 85%.

Speaker 17 So that means one county can literally, let's say it's a rural county or a small county, can upend the progress, the opportunity, the needs, and the wants and advancements of 85% of Ohioans.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's like a horrible little like mini electoral college for just Ohio. You mentioned that there's some amazing early turnout numbers.
Almost 600,000 people have already voted.

Speaker 5 That's way above turnout for the recent Senate primary. It's below sort of a general election level for governor or president.

Speaker 5 How are you guys feeling about what that early vote number means for you and your prospects?

Speaker 17 So we feel really good about the early vote number. We have been holding rallies in many town halls in every corner of the state, and not just big cities, small cities, and rural areas.

Speaker 17 And what we know from the early vote data is that a lot of the folks who have requested ballots, who turned in ballots, who voted early, are registered Democrats.

Speaker 17 And so we hope and pray that those folks have voted no.

Speaker 17 But I'm also personally optimistic about some of the Republicans because we know that this issue is not just about abortion, it's about so much more.

Speaker 17 And so folks who care about school levies and bonds, like all of that has to go on the ballot. And so everything is at stake.

Speaker 17 And so I think our coalition, which is very broad, includes labor and a lot of different folks and small businesses who are also saying vote no on this very, very important ballot.

Speaker 17 And I hope and I think that we're going to surprise a lot of folks once the official data comes out to see not just Democrats are voting no, but folks all across the political spectrum.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's interesting. You see Republicans whining about the 2020 election when Democrats tried to make it easier for folks to vote in the middle of a pandemic.

Speaker 5 And they're complaining that that's changing the rules in the middle of the game.

Speaker 5 Meanwhile, in Ohio, Republicans are trying to make it much harder for people to vote in the middle of an election, which would also, as you mentioned, it wouldn't just apply to this effort to enshrine abortion rights into the Constitution.

Speaker 5 If you are a Republican who wants fair congressional maps and nonpartisan sort of anti-gerrymandering language put forward, this could stop those efforts too, right?

Speaker 17 That's exactly right. This is a very important issue.
And I also want to add that we have the strictest voter ID law in the country. You have to have a photo ID in order to vote.

Speaker 17 So not only have they rolled out this election during the middle of the summer, you also have to have voter ID, an ID that matches your address, or you cannot vote. You will be turned away.

Speaker 17 And we have so much at stake.

Speaker 17 With all of the rules changes, because that's what Republicans do when they don't win the game. They change the rules and they rig the process.
That is what we're up against right now.

Speaker 17 And this is the precursor to what we have coming forward, not just in 2024, but in a few months in November. We have abortion on the ballot and we also have marijuana on the ballot.

Speaker 5 So, I saw that one of the biggest donors or spenders on the yes campaign, which is the folks we're fighting against here, is an Illinois conservative mega donor named Richard Uline.

Speaker 5 He contributed $4 million to the Protect Our Constitution PAC. His contribution made up 82.5% of the Yes campaign's funding, I believe, as according to the Washington Post.

Speaker 5 Why do you think this like out-of-state multi-hundred millionaire, billionaire, I don't know what he is, is spending so much money on this race.

Speaker 17 That is something that perplexes all of us. Why is this guy from Illinois with no ties to Ohio so invested in ruining our lives?

Speaker 17 We deserve to have good things. We like nice things too.

Speaker 17 And you would think, after everyone in the country and around the world heard the story about the nine-year-old girl in Ohio who was raped and had to travel to Indiana to have an abortion, that people would think and see this is a bad thing.

Speaker 17 This is not something that is smart in terms of policy. This impacts people's lives.

Speaker 17 But no, this guy, you know, decided, hey, I wanna chip in as much money as I possibly can to continue to trample reproductive rights and healthcare for people in Ohio.

Speaker 17 So that's what we are up against. But we have received donations from people all across the state.
$5, $10, $20 at a time. We were on air before the yes campaign.

Speaker 5 We were on air longer and we've been fighting back tooth and nail uh dollar for dollar and so i feel really confident about our campaign and our movement because we organize right away yeah so obviously abortion access will be a huge part of the 2024 campaign across the board are there things that you guys have learned from your organizing from the work uh you've done from i don't know how like what messages work on the doors that the biden campaign or other candidates can learn and steal from?

Speaker 17 Absolutely.

Speaker 17 I think when we are talking to young voters and communities of color and people who don't pay attention to politics as much as us, it is very important to make sure that the voter is the hero.

Speaker 17 It is not about what XYZ politician has done for you and how they make your life better. It's about, hey, because you voted in the last election, we were able to cap insulin at $35.

Speaker 17 It is because you voted in the last election, student loans were able to stay on hold for so long, and the Biden administration fought to make sure that we could have access to have our student loans canceled, even though the Supreme Court struck it down.

Speaker 17 That fight happened because you showed up. And when we center our politics and our policy wins around the voter, making the voter the hero, they feel empowered to vote.

Speaker 17 Because with so much gerrymandering and the voter IDs and the Republicans rigging the rules, people are turned off. And so how do you turn people back on?

Speaker 17 How do you make them feel a part of the process? You have to censor them and make it about them. And that's what we're doing on the doors.
We're talking about.

Speaker 17 what issue one will mean for all of Ohioans and what it means for them to show up and vote this August.

Speaker 5 I love that. Make the voter the the hero, give them some agency, make them feel like they accomplished something.
Last question for you.

Speaker 5 So no matter what happens, your team is going to be fighting for abortion rights and access in November. How can listeners get involved and help out?

Speaker 17 Yes. So what listeners can do is visit innovationohio.org and chip in.
We also launched the Ohio Voter Guide.

Speaker 17 You can share that link, ohiovoterguide.org, to every single Ohioan you know and make sure that they have the information they they need to make an educated and informed decision to hopefully vote no on August 8th.

Speaker 17 But we will also use Ohio Voter Guide again in November and the following election after that. So share that link out.

Speaker 17 It helps people access all the information they need in terms of registering to vote, finding their polling location and finding out who and what is on their ballot. And that's ohiovotorguide.org.

Speaker 5 Excellent. Well, Desiree Timms, thank you for the work you're doing.
Thanks for doing the show. And,

Speaker 5 you know, I think we're in a win. I feel good about this one.

Speaker 17 I feel good, too.

Speaker 17 I'm fired up.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Yeah.
This is like, I don't think anyone wants the rules to be changed. I don't think everyone wants the government making it harder for citizens to have their voices heard.

Speaker 5 So fingers crossed here. But thank you again.

Speaker 17 Thanks.

Speaker 3 All right, before we go, Elijah is back with the things he holds nearest and dearest in life, his takes. How's it going, Elijah?

Speaker 18 It's going great, John. Great to be with you again doing the take appreciators.
Let's just jump right into it because we're on a tight schedule.

Speaker 3 I'm going to share some takes with you all.

Speaker 18 The producers have seen all of them. John, John, and Tommy have not.
They'll rate them on a scale of one to four politicos, with four being the worst.

Speaker 18 Thanks to our subscribers who sent these takes in today. You can sign up for Friends of the Pod, our subscription service at crooked.com/slash friends.

Speaker 5 You guys ready?

Speaker 3 Ready?

Speaker 18 All right, let's start with a piece from the Washington Post. It's by Henry Olson, and it's titled Republicans Save Democracy in 2020.

Speaker 18 This piece makes the argument that it is Republicans like Mike Pence, Brad Raffensperger, and some of Trump-appointed judges who made all the difference when Trump tried to overturn the 2020 election.

Speaker 18 Here's a quote: If you love our democracy, thank Republicans for the fact that we still have it.

Speaker 3 Oh my God. What do you guys think?

Speaker 5 That's very triggering.

Speaker 3 Where's the lie?

Speaker 4 Where's the fucking lie? Rusty Bowers, which is

Speaker 3 one example. Look, I will definitely thank a few individual Republicans for not joining the conspiracy that Trump is now being tried for.

Speaker 5 Congrats, you didn't do it.

Speaker 3 Congratulations. Thank you for not.
Thank you. No, that was very good of them.
They did.

Speaker 3 But the Republican Party as a whole is, of course, why we're in this mess because it is controlled by Donald Trump and his supporters. Well,

Speaker 4 that's obviously an issue as well.

Speaker 3 Look. I think the headline is the most triggering thing.
So I feel like that gets...

Speaker 3 I'll give that a three.

Speaker 4 How many? What are the numbers again?

Speaker 3 One through four. It's just one through four.

Speaker 18 It's been a while.

Speaker 4 That's a one and a half for me.

Speaker 3 Okay, I'll give it a three.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 18 I'm sorry, it's been a while.

Speaker 18 We never played Take Appreciators anymore.

Speaker 3 What happened?

Speaker 5 Sorry, man.

Speaker 3 You okay? You want to talk about this? You want to have a side meeting about this?

Speaker 4 Elijah with his head down, walking a little radio flyer.

Speaker 18 Yeah, babe, why don't we play Take Appreciators anymore?

Speaker 18 Let's move on to a post from Truth Social from the thrice indicted former President Donald Trump. You referenced it at the top of the show.

Speaker 18 Quote, the shocking and totally unexpected loss from the U.S. women's national team to Sweden is fully emblematic of what's happening to our once great nation under crooked Joe Biden.

Speaker 18 Many of our players were openly hostile to America. No other country behaves in such a manner or even close.

Speaker 3 Woke equals failure.

Speaker 18 Nice shot, Megan. The USA is going to hell.
Three exclamation points. MAGA.

Speaker 3 Jesus Christ.

Speaker 5 There is like, there were so many people on the internet yesterday rooting against the United States because they don't like the political views of some of the players on one of the teams.

Speaker 3 What is wrong with you?

Speaker 5 You know, it's broken brain people on the planet.

Speaker 3 Sick stuff. Sick stuff.
Also, what I just...

Speaker 3 USA is going to be a hell of a hello. Nice shot, Megan.
The USA is going to hell is quite a sentence. Because we lost to Sweden.
From the man who wants to lead our nation.

Speaker 3 Full playbook. Full playbook.
Full playbook.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Ugh.

Speaker 4 I really do hate the rooting against

Speaker 4 our. It really gets me.

Speaker 3 It really gets me.

Speaker 5 I was trying to think to myself, like, was there a time when the U.S. team won something and you really disliked a player for being some kind of like right-wing nutter?

Speaker 5 I can't think of an example on the other side. I really can't.

Speaker 4 Remember there was that baseball player who then was on Survivor who said that he didn't want to ride on the seven train because of some homophobic and racist things?

Speaker 3 John Rocker.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Did he ever do the Olympics?

Speaker 3 I don't think so. He might have.
That's the only person I could think of.

Speaker 5 That was probably an era when pros weren't allowed in the Olympic team.

Speaker 3 I mean, Kurt Schilling's a big trumper, but I still love the 2004 ranks.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I will always appreciate what he did.

Speaker 4 Well, if you guys couldn't read for assholes, you'd never be able to watch sports.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's a compromise we all make.

Speaker 3 Like America's team, the Patriots. Yeah.

Speaker 3 No assholes on that team.

Speaker 3 It's right in the title.

Speaker 5 You're welcome.

Speaker 18 All right, so we're at a full playbook for that truth.

Speaker 3 Sure are. Yeah.
Great.

Speaker 18 All right, let's let's end with something that we don't normally do. A letter to the editor.

Speaker 18 There are lots of takes out there that say Biden should pardon Donald Trump, but here's something from Gary to the Salt Lake Tribune.

Speaker 3 And I have to say, I think Gary is cooking.

Speaker 4 Fucking deep, deep reach.

Speaker 3 Letter to the editor. Hey, Gary.
You know what we call those today? They're called the X's. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Okay, get ready to have your world rock, Gary, because Pod Save America's coming.

Speaker 3 Who the fuck is writing a letter to the editor anymore? Just go your fucking post something.

Speaker 18 I love what Gary is cooking up here as an intellectual exercise.

Speaker 18 It's titled, For Strategic Reasons, Biden Should Get Into the Self-Pardon Game. Here's a quote: I don't think Biden has committed any crimes, but doing a pardon would test whether it's constitutional.

Speaker 18 And if it is, it would protect him from retribution by a potential President Trump in 2024.

Speaker 18 This would put Biden's opponents in a position that if they complain or try to block the pardon, it would apply to Trump as well. Is Gary cooking?

Speaker 3 Gary, I'm for it. I'm for it.
He should definitely self-pardon. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Gary, you know. Hey, Gary, I like what you're cooking.

Speaker 3 I got a bowl right here. Serve it.

Speaker 4 I'm in. Yeah.
I think it's after the election.

Speaker 3 I think it should be pardons for him, pardons for

Speaker 3 Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, maybe us. I don't know.
Honestly,

Speaker 3 I'd sleep better. I've got a little prophylactic pardoning going on?

Speaker 4 Pardoning an ambient? I'd sleep like a fucking baby.

Speaker 4 That's what I've been missing.

Speaker 5 Joe Biden needs to issue an executive order that says Gary can't read political news for at least two years. I think that is, that is,

Speaker 5 you're thinking

Speaker 5 your Ds in your chest are too high. Too many D's in your chest.

Speaker 3 D's?

Speaker 5 4D, 3D, 5D chests.

Speaker 3 Oh, oh, oh, chest. I thought he said chest.
I was like, you have D's on his chest? What the fuck? I don't even know what you've been up to. I don't know.

Speaker 4 Not as nothing. I've been up to nothing.

Speaker 3 Where was Gary's letter printed?

Speaker 3 He was in Salt Lake. Oh, you're looking at the Salt Lake.
Wow. How did you find that?

Speaker 4 Here's the thing. But that tells me something about Gary.
Gary.

Speaker 5 That's the subs send it to him.

Speaker 4 Gary, not the Doms.

Speaker 3 Gary.

Speaker 3 Gary

Speaker 4 is in fucking Salt Lake with a candle, you know, in a red state,

Speaker 3 just

Speaker 4 out there fighting for Joe Biden every goddamn day,

Speaker 4 thinking ahead.

Speaker 3 But he's a Romney Biden voter. Yep.

Speaker 4 Gary's being slandered.

Speaker 3 Sorry, Gary.

Speaker 18 They try to overthrow the government. I don't think a little rhetorical, you know, flare is going to convince them otherwise.

Speaker 3 Constitutional argument.

Speaker 18 Yeah, politico rating for Gary?

Speaker 3 One, I think, I think Gary did a great job. Yeah, do your best.
Yeah, maybe zero. Zero.
Gary's great. Nice.
Get yourself straight, Gary. You know what? No bad ideas in a brainstorm, Gary.

Speaker 3 He's just trying to save democracy. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 18 Fun idea, Gary.

Speaker 4 Turns out it was Gary Busey.

Speaker 4 It's interesting to picture that. You didn't picture Gary Busey.

Speaker 3 Did not see that coming. Elijah Cohn, thanks for a great take, appreciators.
We'll try to have you on more frequently.

Speaker 3 Thanks also to Desiree Tims for joining us. I hope everyone in Ohio voted today.
It's the day of the election.

Speaker 3 If you're listening early, get out there. Get out there, vote.
Get out there. Maybe if it's first thing Tuesday morning, get out there.

Speaker 4 If you're still in line, stay in line.

Speaker 3 Stay in line. That's right.
And otherwise, we'll talk to you on Thursday. Pod Save America is a crooked media production.
The executive producer is Michael Martinez.

Speaker 3 Our producers are Andy Gardner-Bernstein and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglund and Charlotte Landis.

Speaker 3 Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Madeline Herringer, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.

Speaker 3 And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Mia Kelman, Ben Hefcoat, and David Toles.

Speaker 3 Subscribe to PodSave America on YouTube to catch full episodes, exclusive content, and other community events. Find us at youtube.com slash at PodSaveAmerica.

Speaker 3 I want to tell you about a new podcast you might enjoy. It's called Search Engine.
Each episode, reporter PJ Vogt tries to answer every question he has about the world.

Speaker 3 No question too big, no question too small. Questions like, why are drug dealers putting fentanyl in everything, even though it's killing their customers? I was wondering that too.
Same.

Speaker 3 Or is my local sushi restaurant a part of an international scam? Yikes, I hope not. Now I'm wondering that.
Did anyone ever figure out where Sam Bankman-Fried hid all that money?

Speaker 5 Not in his wardrobe.

Speaker 3 Not in his wardrobe. Oh,

Speaker 3 also,

Speaker 3 how sad are the monkeys at the zoo? How sad are the monkeys? It depends on the zoo.

Speaker 3 If you find this world bewildering, which we do, but also sometimes enjoy being bewildered by it, which we also do, we think you'll like this show.

Speaker 3 Search Engine with PJ Vote and Odyssey Podcast on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 16 Where would breakfast be without bacon? And why even have pizza without the spice of pepperoni or the flavor of sausage? It's pork that brings the flavor every time.

Speaker 16 So see your chops, bake tenderloin, and taste what pork can do. This message was brought to you by America's Pig Farmers.

Speaker 3 Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard. That's