Trump's Triple Crown

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Speaker 5 Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
Dan is still on vacation, but I have a fantastic guest host with me today, Hysteria co-host and my pal, Alyssa Mastromonica.

Speaker 4 Favs I'm so delighted to be here.

Speaker 5 It's so good to have you, Balza. And we have personal.

Speaker 4 Look, I dressed Trey, California for you.

Speaker 4 Have on my very old Led Zeppelin t-shirt from college.

Speaker 5 You look like you've been here for years.

Speaker 4 That's the whole plan.

Speaker 5 All right, on today's show, Donald Trump's back in court for his third indictment. His Republican opponents react to the new felony charges.
A New York Times poll has him tied with Joe Biden.

Speaker 5 And later, Hallie Kiefer joins us for another round of, well, well, well, looks like everyone's a fucking lawyer all of a sudden. But first,

Speaker 5 instead of us giving you regurgitated legal takes on the latest Trump indictment that we got from listening to strict scrutiny, we are joined by one of the show's hosts, the brilliant Leah Lippman.

Speaker 5 Leah, welcome.

Speaker 6 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 5 So let's dive in. Donald Trump will be arraigned at the federal courthouse in D.C.
today, obviously right after we record this. He's adding four felony charges to his growing collection.

Speaker 5 These are the most serious, all related to his attempt to steal the election he knew he had lost.

Speaker 5 Trump's campaign has responded with a statement comparing the indictment to persecution in Nazi Germany. And his lawyer, John Laura, has been on cable news previewing his defense.
Here he is on CNN.

Speaker 7 Mr. Trump had the advice of counsel, Mr.
Eastman, who was one of the most respected constitutional scholars in the United States, giving him advice and guidance. That's pure politics.

Speaker 7 You may disagree with it, and people have spirited arguments about the law all the time and that's why lawyers are in business.

Speaker 7 But we've never had a situation where a spirited debate about the Constitution has become a criminal case. What's going to happen when there's a Republican administration?

Speaker 7 Is there going to be an effort to criminalize speech by Democrats? Is there going to be an effort to characterize something that a Democrat politician says that

Speaker 7 doesn't meet some kind of truth standard at the Department of Justice, that that's going to be the subject of a criminal indictment.

Speaker 7 We've now entered a constitutional abyss as a result of this indictment.

Speaker 5 Just a spirited debate about the Constitution that resulted in flagpoles

Speaker 5 just being stuck into police officers.

Speaker 5 That's usually what happens with spirited debates. Leah, I heard two arguments there.

Speaker 5 One. I heard zero, so I'm curious what you heard.

Speaker 5 Well, these are the two that have been floating around. One is an advice of counsel defense where they plan to argue that Trump was just listening to his crazy lawyers.

Speaker 5 It's not Trump, it's his crazy lawyers. And two, this free speech argument that seems to be getting a disturbing amount of traction in the mainstream media.

Speaker 5 I saw a New York Times headline that was like, free speech versus, you know, overthrowing the government. What would you say in response to each of those arguments?

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 So on the first one, I mean, it's true that sometimes relying on the advice of counsel is a defense to crimes, at least where the crimes have like a specific intent requirement where you have to know that what you're doing is illegal or you have to know that what you're doing is false.

Speaker 6 The problem here is that he's relying on the advice of, you know, sure, his counsel, who also happened to be co-conspirators in this entire criminal conspiracy.

Speaker 6 And he also knew that he was getting the advice of basically every sane person on the planet, including, you know, sane Republicans in the administration, other lawyers in the administration who were telling him, all of this is bullshit and you can't do it.

Speaker 6 And his response was basically, well, some other lawyers, right, are telling me this. So I'm just going to go ahead and pick the guys who are telling me I can do a coup and stay in power.

Speaker 6 and that's not really relying on the advice of counsel so much as picking the thing you want to do and finding some cover for doing it anyways so that's on the advice of counsel bit uh i just have to note that the fall from one of the most respected constitutional lawyers in the united states to co-conspirator number two is really quite impressive um you know on the first amendment defense i mean This was predictable.

Speaker 6 You know, this has been a favorite argument of the conservative legal movement that they have used to basically dismantle campaign finance regulation as well as attempts to regulate political corruption.

Speaker 6 So it's not surprising, but it's bullshit.

Speaker 6 I mean, you don't have a First Amendment right to overthrow the results of a democratic election, nor do you have a First Amendment right to throw out legitimately cast votes and deny other people their civil rights.

Speaker 6 Like the Constitution does not give you a right to violate the Constitution. That's not how this works.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And Jack Smith in the indictment and like the first page or the second page is basically like, Donald Trump is free to lie about the results of the election all he wants.

Speaker 5 And that's not why we're indicting him. It's that he used those lies to then try to throw out legally cast votes and keep himself in power.
Exactly.

Speaker 5 So resistance hero Bill Barr said on CNN last night that he doesn't think the advice of counsel defense would work because he thinks that to make that argument, Trump would have to take the stand.

Speaker 5 Why is that?

Speaker 6 Because it speaks to his own mind and what he thought he was doing and why he did what he did.

Speaker 6 And because that's an element of the crime that Trump would be basically disputing, if he said, well, I did this because I relied on counsel, then he would need to say that's why I did it.

Speaker 6 But that would require him to take the stand.

Speaker 5 And that doesn't seem like it's ever going to happen. Seems perilous.

Speaker 5 Seems perilous. We make for real entertainment, though.

Speaker 4 I mean, that's all he's about.

Speaker 6 The fact that it seems perilous, though, I think, is another piece of evidence why this defense doesn't work.

Speaker 6 Because even though Jack Smith in the indictment said, you know, he has a right to lie about the election all he wants, that's not actually true in all contexts.

Speaker 6 Like, he doesn't have a right to lie in court about what happened in the election. That's called perjury.
You don't have a right to lie to federal officials. That is a federal crime.

Speaker 6 So there are contexts in which you cannot lie. And using lies to, again, throw out the results of a Democratic election and legitimate votes just happens to be one of them.

Speaker 5 You guys had a great bonus episode on Strict on the indictment right after it dropped, which everyone should check out.

Speaker 5 Now that you've had a little more time to sit with the document, how strong of a case do you think this is?

Speaker 6 I think the indictment is one of the stronger indictments I have ever read, just in the overall theory it lays out, as well as in the specific pieces of evidence that it marshals in support of all of the elements of the crime.

Speaker 6 But I also think that there are things that are probably not included in the indictment that Jack Smith will be able to rely on, you know, at any trial.

Speaker 6 You know, in addition to all of the things in the indictment, there have been other reports about Trump telling people basically, I know I lost and I'm embarrassed about that.

Speaker 6 And not all of that is included. in the indictment, but that too would speak to whether he knew that what he was saying were lies.

Speaker 5 What's your best guess as to why Jack Smith hasn't charged Trump's six co-conspirators yet?

Speaker 6 My guess is he did a single-person indictment just for efficiency to try to get this case to move along as quickly as possible.

Speaker 6 If he charged other people together in the same indictment, then that could lead to other delays and trying to coordinate between multiple defendants and figuring out whether to sever cases and have different trials for some of the charges.

Speaker 6 And so, my best guess is this is an attempt to streamline the case to get it to proceed as expeditiously as possible. But that's just conjecture.

Speaker 5 On that note of timing, what do you think the chances are this trial happens before the election? And do you think Trump's inevitable attempts to delay will work in this case?

Speaker 6 I mean, he's already booked in March and he's already booked in May with other trials.

Speaker 6 And there is a real limit on how quickly you can schedule a trial just because there has to be discovery conferences.

Speaker 6 there might need to be settlement negotiations, there will have to be disclosures of evidence. And so

Speaker 6 my best guess is we're probably looking at summer or fall 2024. It's possibly trying to squeeze it in between March and May, you know, or who knows, maybe really try to go January.

Speaker 6 But, you know, there's a reason we are still seeing sentencing in the January 6th proceedings, right? In the same district court, these cases take time.

Speaker 5 You said something on the strict bonus episode that is now keeping me up at night, which is that your pals on the Supreme Court might end up weighing in on this case.

Speaker 5 What's the argument you're worried about them making? So they are the true elite strike force legal team, and they all capitalize.

Speaker 6 And they are not above, you know, beaming down some conspiracy shit from the motherboard that is the Supreme Court.

Speaker 6 You know, I think there are different theories that they could embrace that we're worried about.

Speaker 6 One is they could narrowly interpret some of the statutes, like the general civil rights statute, to say that what Trump did here, you know, attempting to throw out ballots doesn't actually come within the ambit of the civil rights statute, either because right casting a vote doesn't qualify as one of the civil rights protected by the statute, or maybe because right challenging these ballots doesn't count as a deprivation under the civil rights statute.

Speaker 6 Like I don't know what kind of hoot nanny they will come up with, but they have adopted really strange interpretations of federal laws in order to narrow federal statutes dealing with political corruption.

Speaker 6 And then the second argument is the First Amendment argument.

Speaker 6 You know, it is possible that they will narrowly construe the statute or say its particular application here is criminalizing constitutionally protected speech.

Speaker 6 And if you think that's strange, you know, that hasn't stopped them before.

Speaker 6 You know, they think that constitutionally protected speech, you know, doesn't really include, you know, unions and fair share public fees for unions, but it does include basically everything Republicans want to do, like spend a ton of corporate money in elections.

Speaker 6 So this is the danger.

Speaker 5 Yikes. Leah Lippmann, thanks as always for joining and for making us all smarter.
We appreciate it.

Speaker 6 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 5 Quick housekeeping note before we get to break.

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Speaker 5 All right, Alyssa, let's dig into the politics of Trump's third indictment. Boy.

Speaker 5 Because apparently Republican voters are cool with a frontrunner who's 78 felony counts deep, and most of his opponents have no idea what to do about that.

Speaker 4 Well, and since he's 77, it's like 77 and one to grow on.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I thought he was 70. We made a mistake on the last pod.
We thought he was 78.

Speaker 4 No, no. It's one to grow on.

Speaker 5 It's one to grow on. Yeah, one to grow on.
I like that. So Ron DeSantis' first reaction was actually a tweet that said he hadn't read the indictment yet.

Speaker 5 He's seen reports he hadn't read the indictment yet, but he thinks that Trump should only have to face a jury of people who voted for him. This is the Ron DeSantis argument.

Speaker 5 Donald Trump has now adopted this too, is that like D.C. juries don't count because there's too many Democrats in D.C.

Speaker 5 So we only get to

Speaker 5 try cases now in red areas. That's the only fair trial.
So that's cool. Tim Scott, right, he tells us he's running the optimistic positive campaign.

Speaker 5 He's the hope and change guy for this race, right?

Speaker 5 He accused the Department of Justice of hunting down Republicans, hunting Republicans. Vivek Ramaswamy said he would pardon Trump if he's convicted.

Speaker 5 But maybe the most interesting response came from Trump's vice president, Mike Pence, who provided damning evidence to Jack Smith and will probably end up testifying against his old boss.

Speaker 5 Let's listen.

Speaker 9 But the American people deserve to know that President Trump and his advisors didn't just ask me to pause. They asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn the election.

Speaker 10 Sadly, the president was surrounded by a group of crackpot lawyers that kept telling him what his itching ears wanted to hear. The president ultimately ultimately

Speaker 9 continued to demand that I choose him over the Constitution.

Speaker 9 That I chose the Constitution and I always will.

Speaker 10 I really do believe that

Speaker 10 anyone who puts themselves over the Constitution should never be president of the United States.

Speaker 5 All right, Alyssa. Before we get into the Republican reactions, one of which we just heard, what was your reaction to the indictment?

Speaker 5 I know it wasn't exactly a surprise, but what were your thoughts when you read that thing? Okay.

Speaker 4 So, first, I think DOJ's got the goods.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 I don't think that they're going to come out with this if they aren't lockstock, ready to go. Like, that was my reaction.
One,

Speaker 5 they're not going to muller this thing.

Speaker 4 This is not a Mueller. This isn't Mueller light, right? And the other thing, couple things, I mean,

Speaker 4 Favs, I just feel so seen, you know? Like, we feel so gaslit. We're like, no, no, no.
We watched this happen on television. Like, we watched this happen.
It happened.

Speaker 4 And for the past, how many years, people have been like, but did it? But did it happen?

Speaker 4 And I think what DOJ is telling us is that it did happen and that Donald Trump did sit in the Oval Office and not do anything for most of the day.

Speaker 4 And so that was really, you know, and I I think, I think, you know, politically, it's going to be super disruptive to the Republican primary. Yeah.
You know, I don't think it does much for Democrats.

Speaker 4 I don't think it does much for, you know, public discourse. But I think for the primary, I mean, think about it.

Speaker 4 Every single time these guys are running, they're going to be asked the question, like, like Pence was yesterday, what do you think?

Speaker 4 And the way that they parse their answer is going to get dodgier and spicier every single time.

Speaker 5 I will tell you that when I read it and

Speaker 5 now when Leah told us that her best guess for when the trial happens could be the fall of 2024, I got a bad feeling in my stomach. I know, you and I always talk about the bad feeling.

Speaker 4 Bad feeling, yeah.

Speaker 5 Because pundits on cable, Twitter, whatever, they engage in a lot of hyperbole around these things, right? Stipulated.

Speaker 5 But I really do think this could be like the most important trial in American history. Absolutely.
Certainly in the last hundred years.

Speaker 5 And it really is, I think there was a slate headline. It's like, Trump or democracy.
And the fact that we are heading towards another election with Donald Trump as a potential winner of that election.

Speaker 4 Oh my God.

Speaker 5 And right before that, he is going to trial.

Speaker 5 And I was trying to imagine, not to keep everyone up at night, imagine if he is acquitted in the fall of 2024 as he's heading into the final month and what that's going to look like.

Speaker 4 So, and you know what I would think about that keeps me up at night? What if the trial ends but the jury is still deliberating around election day? Oh my god.

Speaker 5 I mean this

Speaker 4 is like I'm not like it's not funny.

Speaker 5 It's not funny, but no, and we have treated it in the last several weeks as like plenty of jokes because you have to laugh, right?

Speaker 5 But it suddenly feels like we are back in a moment that is that is pretty high stakes.

Speaker 4 Yes, high stakes.

Speaker 5 The highest stakes and somewhat frightening. And it's like, look, he

Speaker 5 and watching, and we're about to talk about the Republican reaction, but just watching these people try to defend this. Oh, he was just,

Speaker 5 he didn't challenge the election results because he thought he won. He tried to overturn the election results because he knew he lost.

Speaker 4 Also, if he thought that he won, if that is true, he is too prohibitively stupid to be president. Right? Like, like, that doesn't, that's not a good argument either.

Speaker 5 And to how you started this, like, if, if he is either acquitted or he's not acquitted, but he wins the election and then pardons himself or does whatever.

Speaker 5 Oh my God, I didn't even think about the fact he could pardon himself. Of course.
You're totally right.

Speaker 5 And so if that happens after what we all saw on TV that day, like I don't know what happens with this country. Like we're not a democracy anymore.
No, I don't know.

Speaker 5 And I don't think that's an exaggeration.

Speaker 4 No, it'd be catastrophic.

Speaker 5 So most Republican voters seem to be supporting Trump despite or because of these indictments, which is probably why we have candidates like DeSantis and Scott who can't even bring themselves to say that trying to overturn an election should disqualify you from being president, let alone land you in prison, right?

Speaker 5 Like, and you know, Mike Pence,

Speaker 5 he didn't want to weigh in on the indictment itself. And, like, you know, he's before he's been like, I don't know if it's criminalized, right? He took that route out.

Speaker 5 But at least, at least Mike Pence said, of course, someone who did this should never be president again. Right.

Speaker 5 And if you don't want to weigh in on the indictment and the legal process itself, for whatever reason, and there are plenty of good ones, you can at least say, if you are a fucking Republican, yes, of course, he tried to throw out people's votes.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 Of course, he shouldn't be president again. But they can't do that.
We do have Chris Christie, Asa Hutchinson, Will Hurd, and now Mike Pence making that argument.

Speaker 5 Do you think it could start changing some minds if a few more candidates join in? Or are these guys just gonna do the right thing, the ones I just mentioned, and end up getting 1%?

Speaker 4 No. So here's the problem with all of this: is that they were such chicken shits for the past, you know, since since January 6th happened.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Since Hang Mike Pence was being chanted, it took him, if I'm a Republican who is low-key MAGA, right? Like I'm like maybe a little on the fence. MAGA curious.
A MAGA, a MAGA adjacent.

Speaker 4 I think that to me, I'm like, okay, profiles and courage. You came out now that you're a candidate, now that you personally benefit from him having done the wrong thing.

Speaker 4 Right. And so it seems smarmy.
You know, it seems like, okay, good for you. I think that for them,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 I don't know that there's a lot of upside to being honest at this point. I think if someone had taken on Trump a year or two ago, they might have been able to change hearts and minds.

Speaker 4 But now I think they're just picking up whatever low-hanging fruit there is for them in the fundraising world.

Speaker 5 I do agree that a lot of this

Speaker 5 sudden, you know, burst of courage here is self-serving for these folks.

Speaker 5 And motivations are complex. I could buy that they are ashamed of how they kept quiet in the past.
And now, you know what? Right. Cool.
Not on us to do that. Talk to your therapist.

Speaker 5 Who knows what's going on in their heads.

Speaker 5 I like the fact that there are some Republicans out there making this case. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because I do think that our attention spans and memories are as short as they've ever been because the internet has broken our brains.

Speaker 5 And so there are probably a lot of people who, I mean, even me, right? Like I, I'm a political news junkie. I read that indictment and you're like, oh yeah.

Speaker 5 A lot of this was in the January 6th committee report. And we saw it on TV, but I forgot how bad it is.

Speaker 4 That's true. That's a really good point.

Speaker 5 And so I do think if you have a bunch of Republicans, and, you know, Bill Barr last night was on CNN, and he's like, yeah, this indictment is the right indictment.

Speaker 4 Here's my question. Yeah.
Don't you think that the arguments they're making are more compelling to us than they are Republicans? Oh, for sure.

Speaker 4 That we're sitting here giving them credit for, you know, a little bit, a smidge, a smidgen, a morsel of credit.

Speaker 4 But that to people who are maybe not so pro-Biden, they're like, you know, that Chris Christie's got something to say, and he's right about this.

Speaker 4 And, you know, also worth remembering, all of these people were for the travel ban and everything terrible. And that this president stood up and was like, bleach can cure COVID.
And they were silent.

Speaker 4 I know. So I would like them to remember that that too.

Speaker 5 I was thinking about that one specifically with Chris Christie as I was listening to his interview with Lovett, which I thought Lovett did a great job. It was terrific.
It was terrific.

Speaker 5 But I was like, I was like,

Speaker 5 what were you thinking when he did the drink bleach to cure COVID thing? Was that something that you liked?

Speaker 5 But no, I take that point for sure. I just think that like

Speaker 5 there,

Speaker 5 we talked about this Tuesday, but there's like...

Speaker 5 We see in the New York Times poll, there's like 37% of the Republican Party who was like, Trump, ride or die. They like the indictments.
They like January 6th, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, they're like, take my money for your legal funds.

Speaker 5 Right. They're like, he should have overturned the election.
He won. That's all great.
So those people, obviously, their minds are made up.

Speaker 5 Then there's like a group of, I'm not going to vote for Trump. There's like 25% of the party.

Speaker 5 Then there's like this group of persuadable voters in the middle who probably have some pretty, in our view, shitty conservative positions on a lot of issues, but may think that like, yeah, you know what?

Speaker 5 The election was rightfully.

Speaker 4 But here's my question.

Speaker 4 There is such a delta in polls anyway between where Trump is and where DeSantis is, for example, that even like, I feel like so much would have to change for it to really matter.

Speaker 5 That's totally right. And it has to, and that change starts with one of these fucking people opening their mouths and saying something, right?

Speaker 5 Because there is this chicken or egg problem where like, if you're Ron DeSantis and you're his dumb strategist, you're like sitting around and you're like, you know what? Here's the polls.

Speaker 5 Here's what people believe about Trump. Right.

Speaker 5 They think that he was right. They think he won the election.
They're back behind him. So you can't talk about, you can't criticize him for this indictments because the base will not be with you.

Speaker 5 And Ron DeSantis is like, well, I want to be president. So of course I'll follow that.
And if everyone does that, then what information are those voters consuming?

Speaker 5 They're consuming a bunch of people who are like, you know what?

Speaker 5 Donald, those indictments are trash and Joe Biden's going after Donald Trump and it's a two-tiered system of justice and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 5 And so like, if no one ever says anything because they're worried about the base, then the base is going to continue to think what they think.

Speaker 4 Well, right, but also the base isn't really going to change what they think.

Speaker 5 Yeah, well, that's true.

Speaker 4 You know, for someone like DeSantis, I am shocked that he's not trying to go out.

Speaker 4 There's they're so dancing on the head of a pin with everything they're saying that it's like you're not going to get the people who are giving their life savings to Trump so he can pay his lawyers.

Speaker 4 But if he were honest, he might get some people who are like, you know what?

Speaker 4 Ron DeSantis believes all the crazy shit I believe,

Speaker 4 but he's not going to go to jail.

Speaker 5 Right. Right?

Speaker 4 Like, like, don't they want someone who like might not go to jail? Like, if I'm Ron DeSantis, that's my campaign. I'm Trump, but I'm not going to prison.

Speaker 4 That would be, pay me, Ron DeSantis. That's my strategy.

Speaker 5 But you are absolutely right that for these cases that they're making now against Trump, to the extent that some Republicans are, for them to carry any weight, it would have been a lot better for those cases to be made right after January 6th

Speaker 5 when

Speaker 5 a couple of Republican senators voted to convict and that was about it. And Mitch McConnell said, well, we're not going to vote to impeach because there's the legal system to take care of that.

Speaker 5 Well, here we are. Here's the legal system taking care of it.

Speaker 5 I wonder what Mitch McConnell says about that. I wonder what all the other Republicans say about that who are like, oh, let the legal system take care of her.
We don't want to impeach him right now.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 5 So We have talked on this podcast a few times about the scheduling issues that might arise for a presidential candidate who may be facing three or four criminal trials in the middle of the campaign.

Speaker 5 But you are the perfect person to ask about this since you are the mastermind behind several presidential campaigns.

Speaker 5 How do you go about planning a campaign when it's possible that the candidate might be in court as a criminal defendant for weeks or even months? Like, what do those scheduling meetings sound like?

Speaker 4 Bavs. Okay, you and I have been in so many planning meetings together.
My eyes are tearing up right now just at how funny these meetings would be. Let's start top line before we get into mechanics.

Speaker 4 Okay, the planning meetings. Imagine, my eyes are tearing, you and I were sitting around a meeting and we're like, okay, look, Obama's on trial.

Speaker 4 And okay, here are the beats for the day. All right, what's the walk-in picture look like? Like, what's the perp walk? How are we going to get him in through a basement?

Speaker 4 How, okay, they're going to be releasing the sketch artist photos. How are we responding? Is he going to do a press conference after the trial, after the date concludes?

Speaker 4 How are we going to raise money off of this? Like, okay, these are the things, like the macro questions that you're answering. And then...

Speaker 5 Is there going to be an OTR outside the courtroom?

Speaker 4 Are we going to stop by and throw paper towels at people who don't need them?

Speaker 5 You know, like, what are we doing?

Speaker 4 And then you get into like how the campaign actually functions. And the thing about Trump that I think is so...

Speaker 4 sad for him really is that something that will be so critically important to him will be surrogates, right? Yeah. Now,

Speaker 4 loath as I am to say it, the best surrogate he ever had was Ivanka, right?

Speaker 4 Well, she's done the Homer Simpson, like backed into the bush, like, I never did anything, I'm not political, blah, blah, blah. But then you have,

Speaker 4 you know, you have I am the eldest boy, and you have, I am the lesser eldest boy, and they're just like not that persuasive. Yeah.

Speaker 4 But then for actual Republicans, if you're doing the surrogates, it's like, who are the people who would really go out there and walk the plank for him, right? You've got Matt Gates,

Speaker 4 you've got Marjorie Taylor Greene, but like even sort of like kind of intense Republicans think they're fucking awful.

Speaker 4 So who's out there making the case for him when the whole point, right, is this period between now and election days, like, how are you persuading voters? It feels like he has a real ceiling, right?

Speaker 4 That he, it's going to be incredibly hard for him to get past. And as a campaign, who are the people who can help you bring, you know,

Speaker 4 another fringe into the tent. And like, I think that they don't have that.
So it's sad that Ivanka ditched him. But like.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's a great point because,

Speaker 5 but you know, it's funny as you were saying that.

Speaker 5 We think about surrogates first

Speaker 5 because we have run Democratic campaigns and we have run those campaigns without a

Speaker 5 giant propaganda media machine.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 So I do think when you ask that question, I don't think, I think think all the people you mentioned are like sort of eh you know but he's gonna have fox and he's gonna have ben shapiro and he's gonna have the entire conservative movement and the right-wing media machine on his side and what they're gonna be doing is poor donald trump was persecuted in court again today right and there's joe biden and he stumbled over a word and he's too old to be president and meanwhile his department of justice is like attacking donald trump so that's probably what they'll do The timing thing is interesting because I'm trying to figure out like, I guess the best case scenario for Donald Trump is that he wraps up the nomination in February after South Carolina or Super Tuesday in early March.

Speaker 5 And then that period, which is sort of, I don't want to call it the dead period because we were all very busy during that period all the time.

Speaker 5 But there's a period between there and the conventions in the summer where the campaign's a little bit quieter. And then he gets all the trials done in that period.

Speaker 4 But it's like, how does this happen? You know, like, are they talking to the Presidential Commission on Debates?

Speaker 4 Like, hey, so let's work out the dates for the, provided he agrees to a debate of course may not but but are they sitting around being like okay well uh like imagine not even the trump campaign but like the presidential commission on debates being like okay guys so we've got uh trumps trumps in court these days what about the rnc what about the convention it's it is how are they going to plan a republican convention if the guy who's going to give the nominating speech is in court that day well the funny thing think about it it's like are they going to just be like okay planes waiting at dulles we're flying him straight He will literally coming to you live from the courthouse steps potentially, you know, for his speech.

Speaker 4 Actually, it's kind of a genius idea.

Speaker 5 I know, I know. Well, you and I were talking about when he when he was arraigned in Florida.
Yeah. And then he went to Versailles

Speaker 5 afterwards, which is a like very famous Cuban bakery restaurant. And he did an OTR,

Speaker 5 which is an

Speaker 5 off-the-record

Speaker 5 stop, meaning that they don't announce it to the press so that you can go in if you're the candidate with less security.

Speaker 5 And we were both like, this is bullshit, but also as professionals, as like as political professionals, pretty smart. I was into it.

Speaker 5 And I do think what he's going to do, and he's going to have to figure out how to calibrate this, but he's going to do the whole like go to a rally after his day in court and be like,

Speaker 4 I was just there fighting the deep state.

Speaker 5 And there I was, and blah, blah. And look, that's going to work with his people.

Speaker 5 In a general election setting, are like rando normie voters who just casually turn into the news going to be like, okay, there he is in court, and now he's doing a rally, joking about his court thing?

Speaker 5 Like, how is that going to land with them?

Speaker 4 Like, normie voters, as you call them,

Speaker 4 I think they kind of start getting real down-to-brass tacks.

Speaker 5 Like, could especially in the fall?

Speaker 4 I think this is when people start asking questions, you know, at the grocery store among their neighbors, like, can he be president from jail?

Speaker 5 Right. And is that a good idea? That seemed bad.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 You know? Yeah. And I don't know that it's, I don't think that that argument or that line of questioning gets people to vote for Biden.
I think it just keeps people from voting.

Speaker 5 Yeah, well, that's actually. Well, let's talk about that.
So our buddy Dan is on vacation, but he's still writing message boxes.

Speaker 4 I got my message box in my inbox, and I was like, go on vacation, dude.

Speaker 4 But then I was glad he wrote it because he always clarifies my thoughts.

Speaker 5 He's on a family vacation. The kids are there.
I think he's got Holly's parents and his parents there. He's got a lot going on.
He's writing message boxes still. God love him.

Speaker 5 Dan's, his latest argues that not only only will this indictment hurt Donald Trump in a general election, but that it will hurt the entire Republican Party as well, basically because this indictment is different.

Speaker 5 The documents didn't really implicate the rest of the party. The hush money didn't really implicate the rest of the party.
Those were like Donald Trump crimes.

Speaker 5 This is one where there are quite a few Republican senators and members of Congress who voted to overturn the results as well and are still defending him. What did you think of Dan's argument?

Speaker 5 Are you as optimistic as Dan famously is?

Speaker 4 I was like, Dan had some my ties before he wrote this. No, I'm just kidding, Dan.

Speaker 4 No, I think that he is right, that the big lie is an anvil around the neck of these people. I think that this hurts.

Speaker 4 In general, I think that Trump suffers less than House, Senate, and local candidates, Republican, do.

Speaker 4 Because I think that if you bring things down, like, look, I love, I go to the local debates up in my area. I love to listen to a good town hall.
Nice. And I think that things are still local-ish.

Speaker 4 And I think that when people start debating local issues and, you know, people have, a Democrat has a good answer and maybe Republican has a good answer, but then, but then a local news broadcaster asks a Republican, so tell me.

Speaker 4 We all saw people storm the Capitol. Were they really on vacation?

Speaker 4 I think that it gets harder and harder to answer those questions with a straight face when you remove the questions from a Trump versus Biden on Fox News debate.

Speaker 4 You know, I think that locally it gets harder and harder for them to answer questions and they just start, you know, I think it kind of, I think it starts falling apart a little bit.

Speaker 5 Yeah,

Speaker 5 I have been of two minds on this because I had this experience leading up to the midterms in 22 where I did all these focus groups for the wilderness. Right, right, right, right.

Speaker 5 And I sat down with all these voters of like different backgrounds, beliefs, demographics, all over the place. And they were, you know, some independent swing voters, Democrats.

Speaker 5 And I would always ask about what bothers them. And they'd talk about inflation, they'd talk about health care, all the issues that you would expect.

Speaker 5 And then I'd ask about, you know, what is the media paying too much attention to and what are they not paying enough attention to? And too much attention to, they always said the January 6th stuff.

Speaker 5 And there was this big thing about like, we got to move past that. We're tired of that, blah, blah.
So I was like, oh, God, we got to really talk about economic issues.

Speaker 5 And then, turns out in the fall, you know, know, the Democrats, the 1-6 committee, and President Biden himself made an issue of defending democracy.

Speaker 5 And they made Trump's behavior an issue, even though he wasn't on the ballot. And they made the election a choice between big lie believers, election deniers, and people who were defending democracy.

Speaker 5 And it worked. It did work.
And now, look, how did it work? Abortion was obviously a huge factor in that race. So maybe that did it in a lot of different places too.

Speaker 5 But there's a lot of data, and Dan puts it in the message box, that big lie believers, election deniers, fared worse than non-election denying Republicans in that midterm.

Speaker 5 So I start to wonder, like, I do think that

Speaker 5 most people in this country probably do want us to move on from January 6th and don't want to re-litigate the entire 2020 election in 2024.

Speaker 5 But with that said, if you are reminding them all the time of what happened, like the January 6th committee did, when tens and billions of people tuned in and now we have a trial and that's in everyone's face, then maybe that does have an effect.

Speaker 5 Maybe.

Speaker 4 We'll see. I mean, the one variable I think that's different than 20, than the midterms, 2022, is that this is now literally about Trump's honor, right? This is about like, will Trump, like,

Speaker 4 to his real hardcore base people

Speaker 4 is like, you know, when it becomes Trump versus Biden, I think it gets a little different, but it's the same thing. It's like, yeah, like the local, it is hard for them to defend it.
It is easier.

Speaker 4 It's not easier for them, but it is like,

Speaker 4 I do think that when you have Trump himself on television and this is about like a lie he has fed them, and this is the final moment they can show their fidelity to him, maybe it's a little different.

Speaker 4 But I do think that Dan's right, it's probably better for everybody than it is worse.

Speaker 5 Yeah, and I do think for, again, the normie voter who consumes headlines once in a while, scrolls through their phone once in a while, but is not paying attention to the news.

Speaker 5 For those voters, it really is about, like, look, there's all these indictments. Donald Trump's in trouble.
Is it political? What is it?

Speaker 5 The January 6th indictment, I do think, is maybe the easiest to explain and the highest stakes. Totally.
Because

Speaker 5 we were all there. We all saw it unfold.
It was a big, horrible moment for the country.

Speaker 5 And I think that even more so than the documents case, which I think is a pretty open and shut case in itself. Right.
And certainly the hush money case, that it's.

Speaker 4 I do. And I also think we still have Georgia to contend with.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I think that is things like one of the things that I thought was so compelling is like Rudy Giuliani saying, yes, that he defamed.

Speaker 4 the

Speaker 4 two election workers whose lives were uprooted. And I do think that for the normie voter, they're like, that's not cool.

Speaker 5 That was, you know,

Speaker 5 I like wept during the day. I wept.

Speaker 4 That was, it was, it was devastating because we know what happens if we say something

Speaker 4 and the MAGA get upset. Yeah.
That is nothing compared to what they face. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And like you can only, yeah, you can, you can only, only, you know, amplify in your brain what it was like for them living through that, still living through it today.

Speaker 5 So Trump's potential opponent in 2024, President Biden, has said nothing about this indictment or any of the indictments. He's on vacation.
He was off to watch Oppenheimer when the news broke.

Speaker 5 That was funny. And yesterday he bike passed the press pool and waived.
White House put out a statement referring all questions to the Justice Department.

Speaker 5 Democratic leaders in Congress put out some statements. They called the charges serious and consequential.
We saw something from Schumer, from Jeffries.

Speaker 5 And Politico has reported, they reported this back in June, I think, that the president has ordered the DNC and the re-elect to not talk about the indictments.

Speaker 5 Obviously, Biden himself can't be out there commenting on a case that his own Justice Department is bringing against his potential opponent.

Speaker 4 Totally.

Speaker 5 Stipulated.

Speaker 5 But do you think the whole party should stay quiet about the fact that the Republican nominee is a criminal defendant?

Speaker 4 Okay, fabs. I hope the Democratic Party's listening to us right now.
Okay, great. Because I have some advice.
So here's what I would do. I think that they need to keep it tight, right?

Speaker 4 Don't opine. I don't care if you're a fucking lawyer.
Don't go be lawyerly. Don't talk about what's happening.
Don't talk about the machinations of everything.

Speaker 4 I think that if I am a Democrat running, I refer to Donald Trump as Donald Trump,

Speaker 4 who has been indicted on 78 criminal charges, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But you, but like, that's it.
You keep going. Just the facts.
Just the facts, nothing else.

Speaker 4 Because the biggest problem I think is, you know, I know we have social media, but I still love local TV.

Speaker 4 And if you have a soundbite, Do you want the soundbite being, if you're on local TV, do you want the soundbite being

Speaker 4 you

Speaker 4 opining on trump's indictments or do you want people explaining bidenomics you know and it's a choice that's the choice and so i think that they should not be out there

Speaker 4 i don't think people should be i hate personally when you get the fundraising emails that are like trump's been indicted give me money shut up yeah no i don't think that's that's not helpful

Speaker 4 i don't think any of that's helpful so i agree i think people should largely be silent on it except for just the facts he is indicted you go like that's it he's indicted.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think, I agree with that. I think it's just the facts.
I also think, I think that the Democrats need to make the case that they have made before these indictments ever happened. Right.

Speaker 5 Which was still a pretty strong, sharp case about Donald Trump.

Speaker 5 So, like, the New York Times Today ran a story about this, and it says, you know, Biden campaign officials and allies believe they can focus on topics with a more direct impact on the lives of voters, economic issues, abortion access, and extreme weather, without explicitly addressing Mr.

Speaker 5 Trump's issues. So again, I am, have always been the person who's like, you got to talk about what matters to people's lives, what impacts them.

Speaker 5 So like, of course, but we know you win a reelection as an incumbent if you make it a choice between you and your opponent.

Speaker 5 And if it's, and if it's a referendum on you, even if the economy is getting better, even if the people are cranky, they don't want to do a referendum. They're cranky.

Speaker 4 I don't feel like the economy is getting better yet.

Speaker 5 And you you know what? Just voters for the last decade now have just been cranky. And they're cranky towards people who are in power, Republican or Democrat.
Again, these are the normies.

Speaker 5 The normies, right?

Speaker 5 So I get that you have to talk about those issues and you have to make the election a choice that is about those issues.

Speaker 5 I also get, and Dan has made this point too, that, like, look,

Speaker 5 we don't have to bring up the indictments because it's going to be all over TV all the time. And of course it is.
It absolutely is. But

Speaker 5 we also can't trust the media to tell the story about the indictments in the most effective, compelling way.

Speaker 5 Because what they're going to do is, again, that New York Time headline, and I don't want to beat up the story because the story was quite good, but the headline was like, is it free speech or is it overturning the election?

Speaker 5 And that shit's going to happen. Trump's defense is going to get into the news cycle.
And so I think Democrats at some point, maybe not now, at some point are going to have to make a case.

Speaker 5 And if I'm Joe Biden, I think you can go out there and be like, I'm not commenting on any investigation. That's not my role.

Speaker 5 but I will say what I have said many times before: Donald Trump is a reckless liar

Speaker 5 who tried to throw out your votes in order to stay in power. He is a threat to democracy, he is dangerous, and he should not be president.
That's the truth.

Speaker 5 And that is the truth. And Biden said that in the fall of 2022.

Speaker 4 He's been saying that for a long time.

Speaker 5 And he should keep saying it.

Speaker 4 And he should keep saying it. And I think that

Speaker 4 it is more about some of the people who aren't the most,

Speaker 4 who aren't the most sort of,

Speaker 4 you know, strict messengers. Yeah.
You know, I think that as a rule to people running, saying do not make Trump's indictment the center of your, the focus of your campaign is correct.

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 Because you know, the, you know, the comms director of the Arizona State Democratic Party is going to be like popping off a tweet that's like, log them up, log them up, and then we're all fucked.

Speaker 4 Exactly.

Speaker 5 I don't know who that is, by the way. I'm just joking.
We're just making fun.

Speaker 5 The North Carolina, whoever it is, yeah. All the states.

Speaker 4 But it is.

Speaker 5 Some field organizer in Iowa is going to do it.

Speaker 4 Right. Like I just think that I just think that if I'm running right now and I'm a Democrat, I'm not releasing a press statement every time an indictment is come down.

Speaker 4 I am not sending emails that are flooding people's inboxes with just that.

Speaker 4 Like I think it is fine to talk about it when asked and I think you have to make the contrast and remind people that this is very bad.

Speaker 4 But I think that it should not be this like, you know, you know, like you, you know, when you first land in Las Vegas and the lights are like blinding? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Like they can't do that to our inboxes with all of their like, Trump was indicted again. Here's it, like, you know, just let it be.
Just keep it straight. Yeah.
Just keep it straight.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And make and make the larger case.
Yeah. I agree with that.

Speaker 5 The Republicans have made a decision to call Joe Biden a criminal, even though all their investigations haven't found any evidence that the president did anything wrong, let alone illegal.

Speaker 5 He does have a son who a Trump-appointed prosecutor in Biden's own Justice Department charged with crimes. Right.
And, you you know, he may have said hi to a few of Hunter's shady business associates.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 But the January 6th indictment has seemed to make Trump and Republicans in Congress even more determined to do the Biden crime family thing so that I guess swing voters, normie voters will think, yeah, both of them are corrupt, Trump and Biden.

Speaker 5 Does that worry you, or do you think voters can tell the difference between the Hunter stuff and the Trump stuff?

Speaker 4 Haven't people realized that Democrats aren't sophisticated enough to commit crimes?

Speaker 5 We can't commit crimes.

Speaker 5 It's like too hard.

Speaker 4 We're too earnest. We're like, no.

Speaker 4 I mean, look, I think that, I think the Hunter Biden stuff has been around long enough that it's baked in. You know, I think that for the most part,

Speaker 4 Even, look, again, if you're a hardcore MAGA and

Speaker 4 nothing's going to change your mind, you already believe what they're trying to sell, it's fine.

Speaker 4 But for the normies, I think you kind of look and you're like, I think Hunter has maybe had a troubled life. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And there is nothing about Joe Biden that says he is,

Speaker 4 oh, there is not a whiff of criminality around him. And so I think that more than anything, it's maybe kind of, it's, it's a sad, it's sad, you know, and it's hard.

Speaker 4 And I think that, but I think in terms of like trying to convince people that Hunter, you know, that this is like the Biden mob family, I don't think that that works.

Speaker 4 I think that the story's been around too long and people largely know everything there is to know.

Speaker 5 Yeah. And look, I am, I am cognizant of like how this started with Hillary and where it ended up, which is like, what are you grilling her about Benghazi for? It wasn't her fault.

Speaker 5 And then that leads to the emails and the emails become something, and it just grows and grows and grows and grows and grows. So I get that that could happen.

Speaker 5 And so that, that part does worry me that just like the steady drumbeat of saying it over and over and over is their strategy of keeping something in the news that's bad about Biden.

Speaker 5 But I do agree that it is largely baked in. And, you know,

Speaker 5 their craziest charge, right, which is like, Joe Biden took a bribe, is like complete bullshit. Right.
No evidence for that whatsoever.

Speaker 4 Certainly of a better car.

Speaker 5 I mean,

Speaker 5 you know, the guy puts out his fucking tax returns every single year. He's taken the train home to Delta.
What are you talking about? He took a $5 million. That's crazy.
Right. Right.

Speaker 5 If the best they can do is that Hunter was clearly out there trading on his family name to make money, which it sounds like he certainly was. Yes.

Speaker 5 And that every once in a while he had his dad say hi to some guy and Biden didn't even know what was going on. Like,

Speaker 5 is that like, eh? Yeah, that's eh. But again,

Speaker 5 that Donald Trump tried to overturn the election. This is what the fuck are we talking about?

Speaker 4 This is an apples to apples.

Speaker 5 He literally tried to throw out the votes, stay in power. He had a fucking guy that he just appointed as Attorney General say like, oh, that's okay.
We have the Insurrection Act.

Speaker 5 If people protest the fact that we are not allowing for the peaceful peaceful transfer of power, we'll just use the military to put them down.

Speaker 5 Mike Pence, you'll get hung if you don't fucking throw away the votes. What are we talking about? There's no comparison.

Speaker 4 There's no comparison.

Speaker 5 It is.

Speaker 4 It's silly season. Haven't heard that one in a while.

Speaker 5 So either way, this is going to be another close race that will probably take years off our lives. We talked about the New York Times CNN Republican primary poll on Tuesday show.

Speaker 5 Then they released their first general election poll.

Speaker 5 Trump 43, Biden 43, Tyrace. The other 14% said they would vote for someone else or wouldn't vote at all.
Yikes. What's your take on the poll? Any numbers stick out to you?

Speaker 4 Okay, so I thought it was so funny we were going to talk about this because you know for as long as we've known each other, I'm like, bad, polls, polls are lies.

Speaker 4 And that unlike you nuts, I am not super great at reading crosstabs, but I did just for you.

Speaker 5 Nice.

Speaker 4 Okay, so here's what I think.

Speaker 4 Here were the things that stuck out to me. One, a majority of Americans believe Trump committed serious federal crimes and is a threat to democracy.

Speaker 5 Bonus. That's helpful.
I'll take it. That's good.
And probably why he's sitting at 43%.

Speaker 4 Right. I mean, not as great.
The economy actually is getting better, but Biden's approval is still stuck at 39%. Yeah.
Room for us to grow because the truth is the economy is getting better.

Speaker 4 Now, 18 to 29-year-olds stress me the fuck out.

Speaker 4 Okay, this was what was not good. So

Speaker 4 one of of the crosstabs that blew my mind is that, quote, if you are a, this was from the poll, if you are a Democrat and the election for Democratic nominee for president were today, respondents aged 18 to 29 said as follows.

Speaker 4 34% said they would vote for Biden. 34.
A third of 18 to 29 year olds. 27%

Speaker 4 said Marianne Williamson. 13% said RFK Jr.
And 26% said they didn't know. Now, upside, seems like we got more ground to mind there.
Yeah. Okay, that's good.

Speaker 4 But in general, the thing that scared me a little bit about the poll is that I saw RFK Jr. doing better than I think I would have ever thought at this point.

Speaker 4 Right. Like that was, that was, that was concerning.

Speaker 5 I will say that the.

Speaker 5 The two focus groups of voters that I did for the Wilderness last time that most concerned me were the young voters I spoke to in Orange County

Speaker 5 and the youngish black voters that I spoke to in Atlanta. They were like in their late 20s, 30s.
The Orange County group was mixed race and it was like, you know, probably 20s.

Speaker 5 And they're just, it's not anything specifically against Biden. They're just so like

Speaker 5 sick of politics. They don't think it's speaking to them.
They don't think it's improving their lives.

Speaker 5 They're very worried about climate, abortion access, rent more than anything else, owning a home, making a living.

Speaker 5 And when they talk about politicians, they talk about Biden, they talk about him with everyone else who just seems old. Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 5 And it's like, he's old, we got Trump, we don't like Trump, we got all these other old people in Congress, and there's no new generation.

Speaker 5 And so I can, in that crosstab, it would not surprise me if they're like a lot of young people are looking around, like, what are my other options? Right.

Speaker 5 The question is, because then the midterms happened, and youth turnout was great.

Speaker 5 We had a great margin among young people in the midterms. So the question is: if it comes down to Biden and Trump,

Speaker 5 will they be like, oh, I still think Biden's too old and I'm not that excited, but Trump is scary and I'll pull the lover for Biden. That's my hope.
But that's why fucking Cornell West,

Speaker 5 Cornell Green Party, and this no labels bullshit is so scary.

Speaker 4 That no labels stuff.

Speaker 5 Go stop.

Speaker 4 Stop trying to make fetch happen. You know, like, like, nobody wants you.
You're raising money to pay yourselves. Terrifying.
Like, this is, Joe Manchin, boy. Come on now.

Speaker 4 Just because West Virginia doesn't love you that much anymore doesn't mean you need to inflict yourself on the rest of us.

Speaker 5 Did you see?

Speaker 5 I saw some story today that he wants Schumer to throw some money into West Virginia for like his campaign to see if he can like get his numbers up because he wants to see if he can win in West Virginia.

Speaker 5 Because if he thinks he can win,

Speaker 5 then he'll bash off, maybe. Yeah.

Speaker 5 That guy's a fucking, he's a piece of work. He's not helpful.

Speaker 4 He's a piece of work. He's not helpful.

Speaker 5 Like you said, Biden's numbers numbers have improved slightly since the last poll, but he's still 39%.

Speaker 5 He's getting about 87% of his 2020 voters. Right, which is great.
But losing the rest to, he's losing 2% to Trump, but Trump's losing 2% of his voters to Biden, so that's a wash.

Speaker 5 But he's losing some of his 2020 voters to the I'm not voting for either of them crowd, which is the danger.

Speaker 5 And that mostly seems about...

Speaker 5 It's either about age or the economy. Knowing all that, everything we've talked about, if you were mapping out this re-election campaign for Joe Biden, what would it look like?

Speaker 5 What's your advice to the campaign here?

Speaker 4 Because people love advice.

Speaker 5 I know they love advice

Speaker 5 from us podcasters.

Speaker 4 They're going to be like, okay, why don't you come back to D.C. and do some work?

Speaker 5 Yeah, why don't you sit in these fucking three-hour meetings with us? And to that, I said

Speaker 4 we gave it the office.

Speaker 5 Instead of doing your 30-minute pod and then

Speaker 5 I can't help we're tan and looking good.

Speaker 4 Okay, so if I'm Biden, look,

Speaker 4 okay, I think that

Speaker 4 one, he will always have the advantage of being more spry than Trump. You know, like the age argument when you actually put them up on stage together, I think falls apart a bit, right?

Speaker 4 So I think that's good. I think that he needs an optimistic but realistic message that's like, you know what, here's where we were.
Here's where we are, but I know we still have more to do.

Speaker 4 We have more to go. I think like what you were saying before,

Speaker 4 you know, the fact that the 18 to 29 year olds are a little uncertain right now. I think they have to figure out what's attracting them them to Mary Ann and RFK Jr.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I'd love to think that if, you know, Taylor Swift endorsed Biden, we'd all be fine. But I think they're tougher than that.
The planet's on fire. They don't have good paying jobs.

Speaker 4 The gig economy is crushing them.

Speaker 4 I do think that Biden has a lot more ability to persuade than Trump does, right? So if I'm Biden, what's his strength? He's not someone who comes alive on a stage in front of a crowd.

Speaker 4 That's not his vibe. And that's fine.
But they should find ways that real,

Speaker 4 he should go out and talk to normie voters.

Speaker 5 RPs.

Speaker 4 And the real people, this is, it's like we're writing for an episode of Veep right now.

Speaker 4 He should go out and find the real people and they should find ways to

Speaker 4 let the country see those conversations, right? I don't think it's necessarily, it could be a town hall. Town halls are okay.

Speaker 4 But you do find that then you have the person who's asking the question sometimes a little performative and they want to they want to stick it to them or they want to, you you know but i think figuring out ways to show those conversations you know trump will always go have his big rallies but those aren't going to persuade people and they're only going to be on fox news and he can only do those big rallies in certain cities and those people are already voting for him and also i think those big rallies sort of in many respects reinforce trump's worst instincts because he's getting all this adulation from the crowd and that's when he says his crazy as shit and then he's like he's getting into it and he's getting lost and then he's like way off message right so i do think those are not as helpful for him.

Speaker 4 No, but I think that like Biden has to just look like he's hustling, that he is, you know, taking no vote for granted, you know, as Pluff would say that he's low to the ground, you know, that it's like this real sort of guerrilla campaign, like person to person, door to door.

Speaker 4 That's what I would do if I were him. It's like, look, the world is so...

Speaker 4 problematic right now. And you have a lot of people out there who need empathy.
And Joe Biden has so much empathy.

Speaker 4 And many members of his cabinet are are empathetic and helpful. And so I think that using all of that in contrast to a person who thinks there is only one victim on this planet and it is him.

Speaker 4 And so I think that showcasing, you know, when we worked for Obama, empathy was always one of our greatest weapons.

Speaker 4 And so I think that for him, that is something that could really work to his advantage. I think there are a lot of people in this country who don't feel heard or seen.

Speaker 4 And if he can figure that out, you know, someone else who I think has always been good about making people feel heard and seen is Bernie. You know, get Bernie out there.

Speaker 4 Like, take everybody, listen to people. I mean, look, like Bernie and Fran Drescher doing their like, their like sag after, you know, like a crossover episode.

Speaker 4 It's just a reminder that, like, you know, Bernie, Bernie does understand the plight of working people.

Speaker 4 And I think that that's, as much as we as the party can get that out there from now until election day is vitally important.

Speaker 5 I'm so glad you said that because that, because that's what I've been thinking too, is that just like we remember the best. Look,

Speaker 5 I was not a big

Speaker 5 Biden supporter in the primary. I love Joe Biden.
I've always loved Joe Biden. But I was looking at other candidates.
But then the moments in that primary when he would like give someone a hug,

Speaker 5 connect with someone at a town hall. You're like, this is a good, decent human deal.
Totally.

Speaker 5 And that. was his best contrast with Donald Trump in 2020.
And I think it remains so in 2024. And it's harder, right, now that he's president to like go do those events.

Speaker 5 What do you think about that? Because we know what re-elect is. We were both in 2012

Speaker 5 riding around on Air Force One with Obama. And it's not like you can just pop in somewhere and like, you know, hug someone.

Speaker 4 Well, it's like, look, this is.

Speaker 4 I'm going to say something. It's not super popular.

Speaker 4 I think there was always such a phenomenon around Obama that it was hard for us to do those things.

Speaker 4 I do think that in some ways Biden has a smaller footprint,

Speaker 4 which will greatly benefit him, you know,

Speaker 4 in this uh next stage of the campaign because I do think that even so much even if it's like they have their social media team right all you need is an iPhone to catch Biden having private conversations not private I don't want to exploit anybody yeah but having those one-on-one conversations that aren't these you know in an arena with bright lights which makes even me nervous right yeah that like if I wanted to ask Joe Biden a question I might trip over my words and so I think that there are ways to set moments like that up that remind people,

Speaker 4 shit, he's just a good guy. Yeah.
Like, and not just, I don't mean like, well, let's just let grandpa. I mean, we all know he's fucking smart and that he can do the job.

Speaker 4 But I think that for people who feel like the world is passing them by,

Speaker 4 I think Joe Biden's the only person who can remind them that he sees them. Yeah, I think he's fighting for them.

Speaker 5 I think that's great advice, Alyssa. Thanks so much.
I hope everyone's listening.

Speaker 5 All right, when we come back, Hallie Kiefer joins us for another round of well, well, well, everyone's a fucking lawyer all of a sudden.

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Speaker 5 Okay, we're back. Before we go, Hallie Kiefer is here and she is ready to walk us through some of the best takes over the over the last couple days since this indictment is hit.
Hallie?

Speaker 5 Congratulations.

Speaker 5 I'm sorry, gentleman and gentlewoman. Thank you so much.
You did it again. Time to wrap this up.
Again, Pod Save America got Trump indicted again. No, no, it was you guys.
You guys did it.

Speaker 5 So it's like you did it twice before.

Speaker 5 That's right. Donald Trump is maybe hypothetically going to see some repercussions for some of his actions at some point in the future.

Speaker 5 And I personally get to feel less bad about all those soaking, wet document boxes I have in my bathroom, okay?

Speaker 5 There are no classified documents in those bad boys. Mostly just old cover letters.
Remember cover letters? That's so weird. Remember the rule of law?

Speaker 5 Anyway, what better way to celebrate Trump's triple crown than with a game we're calling?

Speaker 5 We called it this before, now we're calling it again. Well, well, well, looks like everyone's a fucking lawyer all of a sudden.

Speaker 5 The way this game works, you tell me who wrote this tweet, which I'm about to read about Trump's arraignment. Was it a legal expert or was it just some fucking guy?

Speaker 5 You will receive a bonus point if you could correctly guess the profession of the person who tweeted it. Oh, wow.
Are y'all ready? Okay. So ready.

Speaker 5 Biden's DOJ is is now criminalizing the First Amendment. And anyone who dares question the results of an election.
No, was that a legal expert? It was just a fucking guy.

Speaker 4 Some fucking guy.

Speaker 5 I feel like I'm sad to think it was a legal expert. No, it wasn't just a fucking guy.
Of course, Congressman Wesley Hunt. Wait,

Speaker 4 you didn't let me pick.

Speaker 5 I was going to warn you. I knew they were a member of Congress.

Speaker 5 Well, I have great news because we have some more of them. Okay.

Speaker 5 Apparently, now it's a crime to make statements challenging election results. I mean,

Speaker 5 if a prosecutor decides those statements aren't true, yeah, again, that's how law works.

Speaker 5 When should we expect indictments of the Democratic politicians who falsely claimed Russia hacked the 2016 election? Was that a legal expert? Is that just a fucking guy? I know this one. Go ahead.

Speaker 5 That's some fucking guy. And whose guy was it? That's some fucking guy named Marco.
Damn. Yeah, you were dead.

Speaker 5 Little Marco.

Speaker 5 Le Marco. He's basing himself yet again.
And it is fun to hear them, like, how wide they have to go to be like, oh, I guess it's a a crime to commit crime.

Speaker 5 It's like, yep, it's a crime to commit crime.

Speaker 5 Now it's a crime to overturn democracy. Wow, I'm sorry.
Wow, guys. Oh, now we can't attack the Capitol.

Speaker 5 All of a sudden, the people bringing this count, they have here, conspiracy against rights, they should be indicted for conspiracy against rights for bringing this indictment.

Speaker 5 It's a conspiracy against his First Amendment rights. Now, is that a legal expert? Is that just a legal expert? I think it's a legal expert.
Unfortunately, it is. And what legal expert is that?

Speaker 4 Trump's lawyer. And

Speaker 5 which of the millions of them?

Speaker 5 Give us a hint. It's a former lawyer.
Is it a co-conspirator? It is a co-conspirator. Is it an Eastman? No.
Giuliani. It's Giuliani,

Speaker 5 Rudy. And that's the problem with this game is that eventually you realize, oh, but the lawyers on their side are also just some fucking

Speaker 5 fuck.

Speaker 5 That is. It's just to realize, you know.

Speaker 4 Wait, Hallie, I actually have a question. Yes, please.

Speaker 5 Giuliani was disbarred, wasn't he that's a great point so yes he's not you're right he's not he is just some fucking guy

Speaker 5 sorry i did i i literally no no no you're absolutely right i i did myself in with that one but i had to be honest that's good no i i thank you so much for pointing that out and yeah again so if if giuliani approaches you out of a dark alley and offers his legal just some fucking guy wrong

Speaker 5 guy the trump indictment is these they're feelings masquerading as facts it's criminalizing thoughts now is that a legal expert or is that just some fucking guy

Speaker 4 Some fucking guy.

Speaker 5 And what guy do you think that is? I'll give you a hint. He's the king of late night, unfortunately.
Oh, no. It's Greg Gutscheck.
It is Greg Gutch.

Speaker 4 I was going to say My Pillow.

Speaker 5 It was either him or Jesse Waters. I don't know who he is.

Speaker 5 Where's the My Pillow guy? Well, probably face down in a gutter somewhere.

Speaker 5 And then finally, just one more.

Speaker 5 This is like lawfare, they call it. Legal warfare.
If this was political, this would be like a political war crime. This is overkill.
This is political germ warfare.

Speaker 5 There are this is these are political war crimes. It is an atrocity.
It's like not dropping one atomic bomb, you drop 15 dozen.

Speaker 5 Enough is enough. Now, is that a legal expert? Some

Speaker 5 fucking guy.

Speaker 4 I think it might be some fucking legal expert.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's got to be some fucking guy. It is a gentleman.
Oh, oh.

Speaker 5 We did just mention him. It's Rudy Giuliani again? No, no, no.
Oh, is it?

Speaker 5 You just mentioned him. Johnny Smith? No.
Oh, what I

Speaker 5 Fox's Own. Oh, oh, is it Jesse Waters? Jesse Waters.

Speaker 5 15 fucking atomic. That's how crazy this is.

Speaker 4 I thought for sure that was Marjorie.

Speaker 5 That was my first thought, too.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I was like, this is so hyperbolic, it can only be Marjorie or Matt Gabe.

Speaker 5 I think Marjorie's, she's cooking up something. She's writing a whole novella.

Speaker 4 She's going to come out with it. She does have a novella.

Speaker 5 Now, it turns out there weren't a lot of actual legal experts who did weigh on this, presumably, because there's a lot of evidence. And they're like, well, it's kind of there.

Speaker 4 They're like, I still want other clients.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And let us move on to our celebration of the OGs, of course, the

Speaker 5 resistance libs.

Speaker 5 Hope those aging knees are holding up as you take yet another victory lap. Time to kick back with a glass of adaptogen hop water.

Speaker 5 Because wine during the week, at this point, your sleep gets all messed up.

Speaker 5 And give yourself a little pat on your aching back before, again, we all return once again to the 24-hour toxic churn of anti-trans, anti-queer, anti-abortion rights, anti-black, anti-labor profanity, the right continues to vomit into America's open screaming mouth.

Speaker 5 But for right now,

Speaker 5 let's have fun. Give yourself a minute of a breather.

Speaker 5 Gentlemen and women.

Speaker 4 Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 I'm going to read you some mouth-watering resistance lips tweets, and you're going to rank them on a four-tiered scale. Okay.
Level one, notorious RBG.

Speaker 5 Level two,

Speaker 4 Cheeto-in-Chief.

Speaker 5 Okay. Level three, Dumbledore's Army.
That's a, that takes you back. Okay.
And then finally, four, occupied Democrats. Okay.
Okay. All right.
Here's one.

Speaker 5 And if you want, you can also guess who tweeted this. I, that's what wants to be an element.
We're coming towards an inflection point and a fraught moment in the history of our democracy. Oh, my God.

Speaker 5 But frankly, considering the interests of justice and the rule of law, it's about damn time.

Speaker 5 Who do you think tweeted that?

Speaker 5 That's a real cross in the Delaware moment.

Speaker 4 I'm not on Twitter anymore, really.

Speaker 5 Thank God for your brain.

Speaker 4 I am not, but I do feel like it's only a two.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I was going to say that the Cheeto

Speaker 5 Cheeto God or something.

Speaker 5 Yeah, Cheeto and Chief. Ooh, Cheeto God.
Cheeto and Chief. That was Cheeto and Chief.
Yeah, I agree with Cheeto and Chief.

Speaker 4 But who said it?

Speaker 5 It was Adam Schiff. It was Adam Schiff.

Speaker 5 Shifty Shift. You got to go big, though.

Speaker 5 You only get an afternoon before we move on.

Speaker 5 On Twitter, election deniers. Never.
And never is all is capitalized. Prosper.

Speaker 4 Who do you think tweeted that?

Speaker 5 It was never prosper. Oh, it wasn't Trump.

Speaker 5 Is that

Speaker 5 Midas Touch? This is the Occupied Democrats. Oh, it is.

Speaker 5 One of their last Zaney ones.

Speaker 5 That's why I didn't, that's why I wrote this Midas Touch. Election deniers never prosper.
Where are we putting this? Is this a notorious RBG?

Speaker 4 It's a notorious RBG.

Speaker 5 It's a notorious IGG. I mean, for them.
It's not that fantastical. Well, yeah, for them, too.
Yeah. Especially.
Especially. Even Fidel Castro.

Speaker 5 Hugo Chavez and Adolf Hitler never carried out a plan like Trump's choice of acting attorney general Jeffrey Clark Clark proposed to use the Insurrection Act to hold power by force by turning the U.S.

Speaker 5 Army against the people of America rising up against their coup. That is, first of all, that is a full-on Occupy Democrat.

Speaker 5 That's the

Speaker 5 craziest one we've ever heard. RFK? Now, this is Grant Stern, who is the executive editor of Occupy Democrats.

Speaker 5 All right.

Speaker 4 Well, then he's like representing. Exactly.

Speaker 5 Hey, dude, that is fucking kooky.

Speaker 5 I just want to tell you. That's what I thought it was RFK.
And again, don't use Hitler's name. Hitler.
Just don't use it.

Speaker 4 Get Hitler's name out of your mouth.

Speaker 5 Finally, somebody said it. No, Hitler.
Ha ha.

Speaker 5 You will never be president is trending now because salty-ass Trump supporters are letting former VP Mike Pence have it for the part he played in making today possible. So delicious.

Speaker 5 And then sort of like the smiling, laughing face emoji. Emoji.

Speaker 5 Again.

Speaker 4 Someone used an emoji?

Speaker 5 Favreau, I feel like you know these. Oh, no.

Speaker 4 This is terrifying. I think you do know these.

Speaker 5 First, I'm going to do the rating. This is a three, and three was.

Speaker 5 Three, of course, was Dumbledore's Army. Dumbledore's army.

Speaker 5 This feels like the Dumbledore's Army. Who would this be?

Speaker 4 Who uses an

Speaker 5 individual? Individual. He has a location, a role within his family.
A role within his family. Oh, oh, oh.
Is it a Krassinsian? It is Brooklyn Dad Defiant. Oh, Brooklyn Dad Defiant.

Speaker 4 You guys, I'm not going to lie. I'm feeling good about myself that I don't know any of these people.

Speaker 5 Oh, You should. Be on Twitter this week.
I think the last couple weeks, I'm like, this might be, I might be breaking. I don't know what it is.
The whole experience is bad. Brooklyn Dad Defiant.

Speaker 5 First of all, just what a name. I mean, truly.
And then we'll just do one more. Just the word karma.
Period.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 5 that's a one. That's a one.
Victoria's RBG. RBG.

Speaker 4 Karma.

Speaker 4 Who's Karma?

Speaker 5 That's a tough one. Give us a hint.
Yeah. It's also Brooklyn did defiance.

Speaker 5 I've got a lot of those from him.

Speaker 5 Thank you for playing. And I don't think I'll win

Speaker 5 for him to get indicted a fourth time, and you can have me back out to play again.

Speaker 5 Did you bring a Jacksmith Bobblehead doll for the winner? Oh, I know. Or are we going to light the votive candle later?

Speaker 5 You know what? The Bobblehead is a candle. So actually

Speaker 5 we'll have a whole thing. We'll have a nice sit-down meal.
Hallie Kiefer, thank you for those fantastic games. Alyssa Master Monaco, thank you for being the guest host.
This was so much fun.

Speaker 4 Please have me back all the time. I love

Speaker 5 anytime.

Speaker 4 It's like you and me back in that horrible Carrie campaign office in 03.

Speaker 5 And here we are. 20 years we've been together.
Have we moved forward, I think?

Speaker 4 No, I mean, yeah, but we're still the same.

Speaker 5 And thank you to Strict Scrutiny's Leah Lippmann. Everyone, have a great weekend.
We will talk to you next week. Pod Save America is a crooked media production.

Speaker 5 The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our producers are Andy Gardner-Bernstein and Olivia Martinez.
It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Speaker 5 Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglund and Charlotte Landis.

Speaker 5 Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Madeline Herringer, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.

Speaker 5 And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Mia Kelman, Ben Hefco, and David Toles.

Speaker 5 Subscribe to Pod Save America on YouTube to catch full episodes, exclusive content, and other community events. Find us at youtube.com/slash at PodSave America.

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Speaker 13 Hey, everybody, it's John Lovett of Pod Save America, Love It or Leave It, and for a brief moment in time, Survivor on CBS.

Speaker 13 Understanding reality TV is the key to understanding the current state of our politics. Trump gets it.
To your favorite Democrats, I doubt it.

Speaker 13 That's why I'm introducing a limited series on this feed called Love It or Leave It Presents Bravo America.

Speaker 13 Every week, I'm going to sit down with my favorite personalities in reality TV: people like Dorinda Medley from The Real Housewives of New York, Orange County House Husband, and botched surgeon, Dr.

Speaker 13 Terry Dubrow, survivors, black widow, Poverty Shallow. Welcome to Plathville's Olivia Plath and more.

Speaker 13 Over eight episodes of Conversations will answer three big questions: What did my guests learn about reality TV? What did my guests learn about themselves?

Speaker 13 And what did they learn about politics and this great and perfect nation of ours?

Speaker 13 Through it all, I'm pushing to get people to talk more openly about all of this, including stories they haven't told and moments that didn't make it on screen.

Speaker 13 Love It or Leave It presents Bravo America on this feed every Tuesday for the next eight weeks. So check it out and be cool about it.