Roxane Gay on the Myth of Civility

Podzave America is brought to you by Nutrofoll.

If you're dealing with hair issues like thinning or shedding, you might feel totally stuck on what to try next.

There are so many products out there, and it's hard to know which ones are actually going to do anything.

That's exactly why you should give Nutrofoll a closer look.

It's not just hype, it's physician-formulated, clinically tested, and even recommended by dermatologists.

Nutrofoll is the number one dermatologist-recommended hair growth supplement brand, trusted by over one and a half million people.

You can feel great about what you're putting into your body since Nutrofoll hair growth supplements are backed by peer-reviewed studies and NSF content certified, the gold standard in third-party certification for supplements.

While many supplements rely solely on ingredient studies, neutrophil clinically tests final formulations to ensure their efficacy using a variety of hair measurement tools like hair counts and pull tests to assess growth, quality, shedding, and texture.

Adding Nutrofoll into your daily routine is simple.

Purchase online, no prescription required.

Automatic deliveries and free shipping keep you on track.

Plus, with a Nutrofoll subscription, you can save up to 20%.

You'll have access to free one-on-one naturopathic doctor consults to support support you on your hair growth journey.

And a Headspace meditation membership is included.

See thicker, stronger, faster-growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrofoll.

For a limited time, Nutrofoll is offering our listeners $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping.

When you go to neutrafoll.com and enter the promo code Crooked, find out why Nutrofoll is the best-selling hair growth supplement brand at Neutrophole.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com, promo code Crooked.

That's neutrophil.com, promo code Crooked.

Want a career with purpose?

As a U.S.

Border Patrol agent, you'll safeguard our nation from deadly threats.

Competitive pay, benefits, and training provided.

Join our talent network today.

Visit careers.cb.gov to learn more.

Welcome to Pod Save America.

I am Alex Wagner.

Charlie Kirk's assassination deepened an already extraordinary political divide.

Members of both parties condemned the killing and they mourned Kirk's death regardless of whether they agreed with his politics.

But Republicans quickly turned that tragedy into an attack line.

They flooded social media and they accused Democrats of celebrating Charlie Kirk's death, even though no elected Democrat actually did that.

Vice President J.D.

Vance urged Americans not just to call out people celebrating Charlie Kirk's death, but to report them to their employers.

And Vance capped that off with a plea for civility.

We don't believe in political violence, but we do believe in civility.

And there is no civility in the celebration of political assassination.

A call for civility while masked ICE agents racially profile and detain people in unmarked vans.

A call for civility while the National Guard patrols some of America's most densely populated cities under the guise of fighting crime.

A call for civility after the President of the United States directed 800 or so of his top generals to focus on what he now calls, quote, the war from within.

How can we be civil here when the politics are so violent?

Writer Roxanne Gay has an answer: we can't.

She argues that civility in a country where one party is working to erase the rights of anyone who doesn't fit into a narrow and predominantly white male conservative vision of America, that that is a fantasy.

This week, we're going to dive into her analysis: the myth of civility, the government shutdown, feminism in the red pill apocalypse, and a lot more.

Here's my conversation with Roxanne Gay.

First of all, thank you for doing this.

It's great to have the, well, it's great to get some time from you to talk about the state of the world.

I guess I want to start, Professor Gray, Roxanne,

with

the article that you wrote in the New York Times a few weeks ago about the myth of civility in American politics.

Maybe you can start by explaining what civility is in your estimation and why it's a fantasy.

Well, there are unfortunately multiple definitions for civility, but when it's used in sociopolitical discourse, most often it means don't get too excited.

Don't get too angry.

Don't be too hurt.

This is all an intellectual exercise.

Don't step out of line.

Don't do what they, you know, what your opposition perceives as harm.

And that harm really is oftentimes about their egos.

And, you know, don't make me feel complicit

in whatever is happening in our world.

Don't make me feel

like I've done something wrong.

Don't make me feel ashamed, as if we have any control over that, which we don't.

And it's really unfortunate because it compromises honest and productive conversations, and it's always used as a weapon.

Oh, look at this lack of civility.

And

when you look at the current state of the world, which is such an inadequate phrase, you can see that what is uncivil is ICE.

terrorizing an apartment building in Chicago in the middle of the night and taking people from their beds.

Like, that's uncivil.

And so talking about it is not uncivil.

And I think it's really important for any of us with sanity left to be very clear about that distinction.

When you talk about the people who believe in the possibility of civility at this moment, are they

sort of more simply put, just people who don't understand oppression and haven't experienced it firsthand?

For the most part, yes, because most of the people who call for civility happen to be,

I don't know if it's coincidence or not, heterosexual, middle, or upper middle class, well-educated white men.

And they oftentimes have some kind of power, whether it's platform or political power, elected office, etc.

And so for them,

you know, it really does offend their delicate sensibilities when you push them out of their comfort zone and force them to confront their inadequacies.

They cannot tolerate it.

And it's so interesting that the right came up with the phrase, not the phrase, the word snowflakes to represent people who dare to challenge the status quo.

There is no bigger set of snowflakes than Republicans in power.

And it's really quite interesting to see.

Like they really are the ones who are craving safe space because when you call for civility in that manner, you are saying, I don't feel safe.

And I need you to take it upon yourself to do whatever you have to do to make me feel safe.

And it's such a level of privilege.

It is such a level of privilege.

Yeah, it's like they're so threatened by criticism that they have to take the TV shows off the air.

They're so threatened by criticism in the form of the judicial system that they need to shutter the law firms or threaten them with lawsuits themselves.

They have to threaten the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, and they have to excise the language from the history books and the textbooks.

And it's all to defend their delicate sensibilities around, you know, feeling threatened about both their history, their present, and their future.

I guess when you talk about incivility, I want to get to the essence of that because you, in the piece, in the Times, you say it's the refusal to surrender to hatred.

What do you say to people who believe that incivility as a concept is the promotion of violence?

Those are people who are telling us a lot more about themselves than anyone else because

they feel that accountability is violence.

They feel that truth is violence.

And it's, you know, I noticed even in a few of the comments, which were largely very

interesting and thoughtful, were some people saying, I can't believe you're calling for violence.

And I am not calling for violence.

But what I am saying is that you cannot expect people who are dealing with oppression to simply kneel and bow their heads and smile as you oppress them.

And

you are facing

significant oppression,

sometimes violence is the only language that violent people understand.

And, you know, again, to bring it back to ICE, which is just such a

constant presence right now,

that's the only language these people understand.

They throw women and reporters and children and families and men.

They throw people

anyone.

They just throw them around as if they're ragdolls.

So don't talk to me about violence.

I think violence is

abhorrent.

I think it should be a tool of last resort.

But,

you know, saying that we don't have to be civil is not saying we are going to be violent.

It is saying that we are not going to go quietly and we are not going to do nothing in the face of

really

just pernicious overreach.

Can I use an ⁇ you mentioned in the piece, you use historical examples of the Freedom Riders in the 1960s.

And,

you know, I think so much about nonviolent civil protest as being sort of born in that era.

And you write in the piece, all of the protest, all of their protest was civil and nonviolent.

Nonviolence didn't mean passivity.

It was a strategy intended to reveal the brutal contrast between the tactics of the oppressor and and the experiences of the oppressed.

Nonviolent civil protest was met with rank incivility, which is to say the hypocritical way in which we presently understand civility and incivility is nothing new.

So help me understand it through the lens of this moment where you're saying, don't ask us to be civil.

Do you think that the work of those freedom fighters and those civil rights activists in the 1960s, sort of in the gate of civility, was the wrong strategy?

I just, I guess I'm trying to square what happened before in that context with what you're talking about now.

No, not at all.

I think that it's going to take multiple strategies.

And many people have said that

we could not have Martin Luther King without Malcolm X and we could not have Malcolm X without Martin Luther King.

We need multiple approaches.

And throughout the civil rights movement, there have been significant proponents of nonviolence.

And they have a point.

And for many people, nonviolence does feel like the right way because it isn't passivity.

It is an active choice to

be nonviolent in the face of violence.

It really is.

And quite frankly, I admire it.

I don't necessarily have that capacity, but I admire the people who do.

And

I also know that there have been many people during the civil rights movement who decided that, you know what, we are going to fight fire with fire.

And black gun owners in the South, in particular, were big advocates of not just going quietly when

lynch mobs tried to come to their homes and kidnap them and do grievous harm to them.

They decided, no, you know what?

We're going to use our guns because we have them too.

And in a perfect world, we would never have to go there.

But

the right to defend oneself, you know, that is a right.

And I think that more people should avail themselves of that right when they need to.

And I'm not talking about just going out and buying a gun, but I am saying we do get to fight back.

We shouldn't have to just bow our heads and suck it up.

But I very much admire what nonviolent activists were doing.

And in that piece, I wrote because I had recently been to the Civil Rights History Museum.

It was just so

powerful.

I had, you know, it's just a really great museum and and really well curated and very,

you know, educational.

And I mean that in the best possible way.

And so ever since then, I've just been thinking so much about what

a significant effort it was during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and quite honestly, up to till today, that, you know, what a great movement and how powerful it has been to see so many different approaches, all

arcing toward the same goal.

And

we need multiple approaches.

It's not going to be just any one strategy that's going to overcome the rise of the second or the third or the fifth rise of fascism in this country and honestly in other places as well.

So

we just have to be able to have that conversation and say, you know, it's going to take a lot of different strategies and a lot of different minds.

To that end, I mean, the idea of opening the door to incivility, to not be constrained by the notions of civility that are basically thrust upon, you know, dissenters in this present political climate.

I wonder how you think about that in the context of the Charlie Kirk assassination, right?

I mean,

it feels like

uniformly elected Democratic officials, you know,

mourned his Kirk's death, even if they did not celebrate the ideas that he

put forward.

And it was complicated, right?

It was complicated to figure out a way to disagree with the ideas that he stood for and promoted and

resolutely stand against murder and assassination.

How did you think about those events in the context of,

I guess,

believing these uncivil times are going to call for and result in uncivil actions.

Well,

I thought that it was all very performative on the parts of politicians.

And I don't think they care one way or the other about Charlie Kirk or what happened.

I think they understood that they had to perform contrition

just in case.

They were hedging their bets.

And it's so cynical and frankly pathetic.

But, you know, I'm against the death penalty.

The punishment for having odious beliefs is not death.

And so

what happened there was a travesty.

But it would be a travesty for anyone to be killed.

Anytime someone loses their life, especially in some misguided attempt to do whatever that killer was trying to do.

We have to resist it.

I just don't believe politicians when they're offering that resistance because it seems so disingenuous.

And the speed with which they came out with those statements, my God.

But it is what it is.

I accept it for what it is.

But I am not going to mourn someone who wouldn't spit to put me out if I was on fire.

I just, you know, but I think it's criminal what happened to him.

And

I

also feel like the

discourse has gotten so far afield from sanity.

Murder is bad.

And just

it's just murder is bad.

And the fact that we don't even have that common ground as just a people anymore breaks my heart.

But murder is not only bad when someone is on stage and is killed by an assassin, murder is bad when police, you know, kill an unarmed black person or an unarmed person of any race.

It's bad when a husband murders his wife because divorce is just too much effort or because he believes he has a right to do so.

It's just always bad.

And I prefer to talk about that

than to be so specific and say, oh, but what about in this instance?

No, I'm actually just against it all the time.

Ponte of America is brought to you by a policy genius.

Did Did you know, John?

No.

That 72% of Americans overestimate the actual cost of life insurance.

Wow.

Very specific.

But you know who doesn't?

Me.

The dead.

They don't underestimate either.

They just don't.

That's right.

Something to think about.

Policy Genius makes finding and buying life insurance fast, easy, and surprisingly affordable.

So if something happens to you, your loved ones have a financial safety net.

See if Policy Genius can help you find 20-year life insurance policies starting at just $276 a year for $1 million in coverage.

Policy Genius helps you compare your options by getting quotes from America's top insurers in just a few clicks to find coverage that fits your needs and your budget.

Talk to a team of licensed agents who will walk you through the process step by step.

They answer questions, handle paperwork, and advocate for you throughout the process.

Policy Genius lays out all of your options clearly.

Coverage amounts, prices, terms, no guesswork, just clarity.

Policy Genius has thousands of five-star views on Google and TrustPilot from customers who found the best policy fit for their needs.

Secure your family's future with Policy Genius.

Head to policygenius.com/slash crooked to compare life insurance quotes from the the top companies and see how much you could save.

That's policygenius.com slash crooked.

Want a career that's far from ordinary?

As a U.S.

Border Patrol agent, no two days are the same.

You'll track threats, perform rescue operations, and secure the border.

You'll also earn a competitive salary with great benefits.

No experience?

We'll train you.

And right now, you could earn a $30,000 sign-on bonus.

Are you up for the challenge?

Join our talent network today.

Visit careers.cb.gov to learn more.

Yeah, and I think that that, you know, when you talk about it in that framework, it makes total sense, right?

That J.D.

Vance, on one hand, memorializing Charlie Kirk can call for civility as he is part of an administration that is dragging people into ICE detention centers, targeting blue states and cities, trying to disappear trans people from society.

You know, all these things are incredibly violent things.

Violence is very inherent to the Trump administration.

But because it's affecting those people and not this person, you can call for civility while being remarkably uncivil and explicitly violent.

How do you think of the,

how do you think they think of that disconnect?

I don't know that they do.

I don't think that they care.

One of the many things the Trump administration has shown us over the past,

well, it's more than a decade now, off and on, is that they simply shape reality as they go along.

And they shape their ideologies to fit whatever they're trying to accomplish.

It's all very malleable.

It's all very fluid.

And that's really what's so scary.

They don't bother themselves with reality.

They don't trouble themselves with fact.

They simply

make the world as they want it to be.

And they expect the rest of us to go along with it.

And then when we point out that there is a grave inconsistency, we're the problem.

We're un-American or we're uncivil.

And

I

firmly believe that's the most confounding

issue that we're facing because, you know, Trump, for example, is trying to frame this current government shutdown as a democrat problem

when

he has the executive branch the judicial branch and the legislative branch uh there is no check there is no balance it's all trump all the time so what do you mean that you are going to lay responsibility at the feet of democrats and then what is going on with the democrats that they are not in front of every single camera they can find and every single microphone they can find putting the blame for what's happening directly at their feet.

The Democrats are being so

weak

and they'll say, oh, we're not in power.

You're in office, so you have some kind of power.

Well,

I think it's interesting that you talk about this in the context of the government shutdown because I was having a conversation with Dan Pfeiffer yesterday on Pod Save America, and

he was saying the Democrats are doing the worst.

Part of their strategy is so flawed, which is to say we're not at fault for this government shutdown.

In fact, they should own it and say, we had to shut the government down because of what this administration is trying to do to Americans.

We were left with no resort because we care about the health and welfare of

our citizens, and we can't fund a government that is actively trying to strip them of their rights,

strip them of access to health care.

So this is a principled fight.

It's actually, in some ways, I wonder if that more adheres to your notion of why civility doesn't work and it's time for uncivil tactics like shutting down the government in the name of principle.

I mean, does that square or am I overthinking it?

I don't think you're overthinking it at all.

I think it's an impossible situation.

And

if the Democrats would own it, I would probably reconsider how I'm feeling about the way in which they're proceeding.

If they would say, yes, we did what had to be done because we are willing to lead.

But they don't even seem to have that capacity to own it.

They are always hedging and hawing.

They're always sort of working from a place of listening to advisors and pundits and polls instead of listening to their instincts and forgetting about whatever three-dimensional chess game they think they're playing and just contending with what is actually happening.

So I would be very open to seeing them try anything.

Anything.

Because I don't purport to have all the answers.

It's very easy to sit from my

office and say they're being weak, which they are.

But I also don't know how we proceed given the extent of what we are dealing with right now.

But I do know that something different has to happen.

I mean, we just, something has to happen.

It's not even about something different.

They're not doing anything.

Well, the government is shut down.

I mean, in fairness, they did that.

Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer didn't play ball, and we are in a government shutdown, right?

The question is, what happens next?

And I think to your point,

it's unclear why they did it, right?

They haven't been saying explicitly why they did it.

There is a conversation happening about healthcare and its affordability.

And I think that's inherently in service of democratic goals, but there's no ownership of the fight.

And what I'm hearing from you is like, own the fight because

the times demand battle, not murderous battle.

No, no,

but new tactics and new strategies.

And you know, like people always go, you know, like you said, it's always like people go to violence, but it's like, no, just resist and then stop always being on the defense.

Go on the offense.

There are

so many things that Democratic politicians could and should be talking about that can be laid directly at the feet of Donald Trump and his administration.

You don't even have to look for it because they're literally coming and they're dropping it at your hand, your feet, rather.

So just talk about it.

Do something.

And, you know, the fact that,

yes, they, and the bar is in hell.

Like, oh, yes, they didn't capitulate to stochastic terrorism.

Congratulations, Hakeem and Chuck.

Good work.

I mean, that we have to recognize that because that's all there is.

I mean, I am so,

I'm frustrated with it.

You sound bereft.

I am bereft.

I am bereft because right now the Trump administration is like

a drunk terrorist in a candy store with a sugar addiction.

They are doing everything they've ever wanted.

And of course,

we were all given the blueprint for what they were going to do.

And the Democrats haven't even bothered to write a response or to articulate their own policy platform in that really big public way, which, again, why are we not writing a Project 2027?

And

so, yeah, I'm just bereft because where does this end?

Well, you write in the article, I keep wondering when we will reach a cultural breaking point, when finally the Trump administration will go far enough to shove us out of the comforts of our day-to-day lives.

I was, again, having this conversation about who has been, I mean, there's a number of people in this country who've been shaken out of their day-to-day lives, not by choice, right?

By force,

excepting those individuals.

It feels like if there is grassroots rage, organization, and

indignation, it is not being mirrored in the sort of institutional response to all this, which is law firms capitulating, universities saying, okay, what deal can we make for you with you?

Media companies saying, we'll take them off the air or we'll hire some different people and we'll change the lens of our focus.

How much do you think that institutional civility, if you will, is undermining a real,

you know, citizen-led

uncivility?

Or do you think the citizens still have, I mean, how do you see the landscape as it stands in terms of reaching that breaking point?

We are so very far away, but you make an important point, which is to say that activism is happening in almost every single community.

On the ground, grassroots, local organizers are truly doing God's work right now.

And

I

am so grateful that that work is happening, that that organizing is happening.

Like right now in LA, in Chicago, in

DC,

Boston, we're seeing some amazing resistance to really terrifying encroachments on people's freedom.

And

what's weird is that many people don't know about it.

And so part of the problem is that it's the media's job to connect what's happening on the ground with the institutions.

And they're not doing it.

And

we all know why, I guess, but it's sad.

And so I think until more people lose a loved one or a friend or are mistakenly detained or find themselves in such financial precarity that they have only one choice left, which is to resist.

You know, until we all sort of start to feel that boot on our neck, I just don't know that there's going to be anything that's going to make us sort of, and I include myself in that, you know, that are going to make us sort of do something, even though i don't even know where to start other than to look to

as mr rogers said the helpers but um i one of the people i follow closely in terms of activism and where to expend our energy is mariam kaba who is an abolitionist among many other things and One of the things that she talks about quite a lot is just picking one or two things because you cannot do it all.

Yeah.

And so that's the approach I've been trying to take.

What things have you chosen?

I have chosen, I am more than happy to go to a protest.

I think that it's useful.

I'm actually very shy and quiet.

So for me,

that where I can just sort of blend in and be there is good.

But I also am more than happy to write a check.

I, and I'll do whatever is asked of me, but what, what do I have that I can contribute?

And what a lot of organizers need is money to do that work,

lawyers to get them out of jail.

So, I am trying to show up when and where I can,

and

it seems to be useful.

I was at a protest about four or five weeks ago, and someone said, Oh, it's so good to see you here.

And I just thought, Oh, really?

I'm just standing here, but okay.

So, I, you know, sometimes those things do matter.

And I do try to do like work with mutual aid in LA when I can, where I live half-time.

And because that's just the community I'm more connected to and that I know more closely.

And I'm always writing.

It's a small tool, but it is one.

It's a powerful tool that you have.

I mean, I wonder what you think.

I have to ask this in the context of civility, because the calls for civility always mushroom in moments of political protest and,

you know, citizens on the street.

And when we saw those ICE protests in LA,

they were deemed, you know, criminal and dangerous, even though, I mean, Waymos accepted,

they weren't criminal for the large part, or they weren't dangerous.

And I sort of wonder, like, whether you think there's a little bit of,

not a risk, but like that, that there needs to be a cautionary note sounded in and around this, because I believe that some of this crackdown on blue cities and states is to actually

foment,

you know, violent behavior or criminal behavior, which so far, you know, nobody's taken the bait.

But

one wonders whether the calls for civility are just a red herring.

I mean, I'm saying this rhetorically more than anything else.

And really, whether Trump's just gunning for,

you know, he wants people out in the streets and defacing property because that gives him the excuse to further crack down.

I don't think he needs an excuse, honestly.

Yeah.

I don't think he cares.

But

do I think that they are trying to bait people with all of the pomp and circumstance?

Of course they are.

But both that can be true and that we have to show up can also be true.

Because while all of the sort of showmanship is happening, like the thing that they did in Chicago,

it's just, it's showmanship.

They videotaped the whole thing and then released a sizzle reel online this morning.

And so, yeah, they're clearly doing it for show, but while they're doing it for show, they are ticking real people out of their homes.

They are splitting up real families.

Like the evil work is happening alongside the show.

And

to just not, respond

would not be okay.

And fortunately, organizers are brilliant for the most part.

And in LA, one of the great things that they have done is that if you are staying in a hotel as an ICE person, you're not going to get a good night's sleep.

You are going to hear all kinds of stuff.

People gather in the parking lots.

They play music from their cars really loud.

They honk their horns.

They shine their lights into all of the hotel windows.

That's not violent, but it's also not passive.

And so, yeah, sure, you can be a part of ICE and you can continue to terrorize this community and kidnap people, but you're not going to be well rested.

And

I love that someone came up with that because it's so elegant and so simple.

And you know that when it happens, those men of ICE are, because it is a vocational program for men, they are probably so irritated.

And that brings me a small amount of,

I don't think joy is the word, but satisfaction.

Pod Save America is brought to you by Cook Unity.

Talk about a comfort food or meal you're known for making.

None of them.

No one is.

I'm known for making nothing.

Really?

Which is why I like Cook Unity so much, because that's what I do instead of making things.

I guess I can make mac and cheese.

That's comfort food sure right out of the box i i made a uh asian noodle dish with uh uh ground beef i just cobbled things together i had some rice vinegar i had i had soy sauce i had toasted sesame oil i think so i think so i was comforted by it i guess anything could be comfortable i was comforted by it what's on what's uncomfortable food just sort of like raw raw vegetables yeah that's not comfort food uh or like sushi sushi is not comfort food no no matter what you're craving the small batch chef crafted meals from cook unity always hit the the spot.

Explore an ever-expanding menu, all tailored to your lifestyle, dietary needs, and cravings.

Get fresh, not frozen, ready-to-eat meals delivered directly to your door by going to cookunity.com slash crooked free or enter code crooked free before checkout to get premium meals for life.

I love Cook Unity.

I've been a subscriber of Cook Unity for years now, well before they ever advertised on this podcast.

And

let's see, I just had

a salad last night.

I forget what it was called.

There's little bits of bacon in it, red wine vinaigrette, and a little pasta.

There's like a French onion burger that I'm going to make pretty soon.

Nice.

There was some good steak with gorgonzola cream sauce that is in my refrigerator as well.

So I'm set for the week and I love Cook Unity.

It's very easy.

The food is very high quality and it's delicious and lots of variety.

Menu changes all the time.

No cooking shopping or thinking about how to get the nutrition and comfort meals you need every week.

Cooking quality meals takes time, but it doesn't have to be your time.

No cleanup or meal planning.

Choose from a rotating seasonal menu of over 300 meals or let Cook Unity's platform provide personalized recommendations.

Menus updated weekly.

New chefs always joining the team.

So meals will never be boring or repetitive.

This is true.

Commitment-free subscriptions start as low as $11 a meal.

Skip deliveries, pause, or cancel any time.

Get comfort and nutrition delivered in every bite made by award-winning chefs at Cook Unity.

Go to cookunity.com/slash crooked free or enter code crooked free before checkout to get free premium meals for life.

That's free premium meals for life by using code crooked free or going to cookunity.com slash crooked free hey if you're listening to this i know you like crooked podcasts and i know you wear t-shirts pretty spooky that we know that well we've got advanced analytics here using these powers we also know you'll love the new merch in the crooked store whether you're a ponzi of america hysteria or what a day listener or you're one of god's chosen perfect angels known as love it or leave it fans there's something new for you shop teas sweatshirts drinkwear and more it's a great way to support your favorite shows stand up for what you believe and be part of our community But honestly, that's secondary here.

Most importantly, it's a great way to, you know, to be cool, you know?

So do us a favor, go to the Crooked Store, see what new stuff we've got, help support Crooked, show people that you got great taste, head to store.crooked.com to see what's on offer.

You bring up gender, and I want to talk a little bit because you're a feminist about one of the things that fueled Trump's rise, which is the manosphere.

That's like red-pilled men who blame women for not only their own problems, but society's problems at large.

Is the manosphere something new?

No,

it isn't.

They just have a new way of gathering.

The manosphere has always existed: Congress,

it's everywhere.

And

the Army,

The White House.

Like, truly, that's just off the top of my head.

It has always existed.

What is particularly troubling and unique about the current moment is that they have such easy access to one another and that there are no limits because they tend to find themselves on these forums where there is no moderation, where they are openly allowed to talk about really virulent misogyny, which whatever.

But then also violence against women, violence against people they disagree with.

They have created their own vernacular to be able to better communicate amongst themselves about their anxieties and their grievances.

And so

they have

more reach than before.

And

they are really good at finding the disaffected and disillusioned young men, or not-so-young men, who have nowhere to put feelings and who

don't have the tools to cope with feelings and who don't have the the personal ability to deal with accountability of you know

take a shower

brush your teeth

learn to talk to other people and then listen to what is being said to you learn to ask questions you know so much of this is just basic sort of human 101 that they have decided they should be able to opt out of and still have the woman of their dreams and the career of their dreams.

Like,

that's not how any of this works.

You have to put effort in and it doesn't have to even be that much effort.

I see scrubs all the time who are doing just fine.

And so

like it just takes a little effort.

And it's, I, you know, I

I'm not, I have some empathy for

disillusioned people and disillusioned men because they were told that they were going to have

the world as their oyster and their fathers and their grandfathers did.

And then here's this generation

that isn't getting everything they've ever wanted, even though really, did anyone ever get it?

And

if you've been told a certain thing your entire life and then it's not true,

of course you're disillusioned.

But I also don't think that that disillusionment is an excuse for hating women and for

hating just people of color or queer people, etc.

They always target people who are more vulnerable than them so that they can feel

some sense of toxic masculinity.

It's just a terrible brew.

But most men are not susceptible to that, fortunately.

They're fine.

And the hand-wringing that we do in the media all the time about like the male loneliness epidemic, I don't know, stop looking at a screen and go outside and talk to someone.

Everyone.

Do you think, I mean, yeah,

like

I have two boys and I'm constantly thinking like, oh, God, is the manosphere the natural extension?

Like, are they going to get subsumed by it?

So we talk about feelings a lot.

We get off the screens a lot.

I mean, I just think, what is the, what is the way that society or women or whoever wants to take the mantle upon themselves to what's how do you combat the manosphere?

It feels, I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to be unduly

emphatic about its importance, but it does feel like

a real thing, a real development, even if it's, if its essence is not new.

The construct of this entire online sort of world subsuming young men and sort of radicalizing them in a conservative direction seems like something that like progressives and Democrats and people who care about empathy need to sort of like unpack and maybe figure out how to unwind.

And I guess I totally understand that the notion of reconnecting to people and encouraging conversation and community and all of the rest.

But I wonder if you think there's anything more explicit that like, I don't know, our leaders need to do or we as members of society need to think about.

Yes and no.

Part of me just thinks they need to work this out amongst themselves because men listen to men listen to other men.

And so I think men need to take responsibility for their brethren.

I really, really do, because they are actually not going to listen to women for the most part.

They're just not.

And so I think men need to hold other men accountable.

But how much more do we need to do as a society to cater to men and make them feel

whole?

I mean, we're living under a trauma.

Part two.

Apparently, we need to do a lot more.

So much of what is happening is predicated on a lie that women are doing so well that it's gone too far.

And let's send them bitches back in the kitchen.

You know, it's crazy.

It is genuinely

not grounded in sanity.

And

at the same time, I have two brothers and they're amazing.

Or, well, only one is surviving, but

no, it's okay.

I thought you were were gonna say only one was no no no they're both both amazing and they are awesome fathers reasonably good husbands and amazing brothers and so i know what men are capable of and for me that's the standard like just exist

you know and they're guys guys they you know they they shoot guns they were both raising only daughters oh well no one has a son but he's

a very gentle giant.

They watch sports.

They do like all of the things that are typically coded as masculine, but then they're also raising children and doing their share of like domestic labor.

I take my parents, I credit them with modeling what relationships between people of different genders should look like.

And so

we don't actually have to look that far to find great examples of men.

So what do we do about these people who have somehow not been able to actively participate in a healthy society?

I don't have the answer, but

I just don't think that we need to do like some kind of like deeply special outreach because so much of our society is already dedicated to supporting men and making them feel better.

Well, then let's talk about women because you are a feminist.

And I wonder how you think of that concept in the Trump years, how it's changed and what being a feminist demands.

I mean,

you don't have to answer.

No, it's fine.

I don't know that feminism has changed.

We're still fighting the same fight we've always fought.

I think a lot of our work has become more urgent.

I, you know, right now we're trying to figure out how do we stop losing ground?

How do we get more people on board with recognizing that women are people, that women matter?

How do we, you know, when you look at all of the disparities that women continue to face, it's like, how do we continue to remind people of this when we have an administration that's saying, oh, women have it great, no more need for feminism, when it's patently untrue?

I think our work is just incredibly urgent right now.

And

what a lot of people don't understand is that our work as feminists

is not only about bettering the lives of women and making sure that women have equity in society.

It's about bettering the lives of everyone, regardless of gender.

It is about making sure that we have a planet to live on

and that everyone deserves equal pay for equal work, that everyone should have bodily autonomy.

And that gets so deeply misunderstood and lost.

That's why I am able to care about, you know, the

very sad and disillusioned young men in the manosphere.

It's like, yeah, you want to see me dead.

You think I have no value because I'm over the age of 32 or whatever.

But I still see you as a human being.

And I'm not even a saint.

It's not about like, oh, I'm a good person.

No, these are table stakes for just being a person.

And

but that's, you know, can I just say that in these times requires a degree of like connection to your own humanity and cultivating empathy.

You know, like you giving a shit about the man, the men in the manosphere, at least, you know, sort of objectively, requires a certain, you know,

a connection to

the outcomes of your fellow humans or an investment in, you know, your humanity.

Do you find that challenging in these times as you see the sort of disposability with which this administration in particular handles the lives of certain people who aren't, and certain, you know, entire regions of the country that are critical or don't agree with them and their worldview?

I find it very challenging.

Like every day, it's a, it's a battle.

Like, it's a real struggle because a very big part of me is just like, fuck you, honestly, get it together.

If you cannot make that work,

given this entire world and how racist and homophobic and misogynistic it is, if you cannot make that work, even a little bit, I just don't know that I can cry for you.

But at the same time, I know that if we don't address that, women don't get to live in peace.

Women are not safe.

And so even if it's self-interest, we have to care a little bit.

Otherwise, we are all in danger.

And

I don't want anyone to be in danger.

And so it is a constant struggle.

I try to have empathy.

I really do.

And

I mean, there are some people, I'm just can't work it up.

Like, you know, Trump, people who are still like, yeah, that's my guy

when they look at Trump right now.

Okay.

Then it's hard.

The empathy is hard in those.

Yeah, it's impossible.

Like, okay.

Congratulations, I guess.

But like, what am I empathizing with?

Why would I, I'm not a saint.

There are so many people out there, and God bless them, who are like, yes, I have empathy for my fellow man, even as he points his weapon at me.

And we need those people.

I'm not one of them.

I'm just like,

what did you think?

You know, I'm thinking of the moment when Charlie Kirk's widow said she forgave the man who assassinated her husband.

Did she?

What did you, what did you, what did, what did you think of that?

I think that

Erica Kirk was ready for this moment.

I think she was ready for the moment, and she knew exactly what to say to

further gild the path ahead of her.

I don't know if she really forgives.

I could not possibly.

Like if someone, God forbid, did something to my wife, there would be absolutely no forgiveness ever.

So,

you know, maybe she is just that connected with Jesus, but I'm not.

So I, I, I just thought it was shocking, honestly.

I thought it was shocking.

I was like, he's not even at the funeral home yet.

Like,

what?

Well, but, you know, apart, I think there's like the person and then there's the, the gesture.

And to me, at least, it was like, God, there's been so much finger pointing.

There's been so much rage stewed up around this.

There's a president who's taken it as a moment to, you know, go after left-wing radicals.

I thought it was actually like, I thought, whatever the motivations and the timeline for someone to call for forgiveness, difficult forgiveness in a time when we seem so incapable of forgiving anything.

I actually thought it was like a profound moment as just the gesture itself, you know?

And I, you know, I find a lot of things appalling about what Charlie Kirk was talking about, but just it's been so long that we've heard that

kind of like

just notion that, you know, to be, to be, to offer kindness in a moment of peril is, anyway, that's, that's just me.

No, I mean, I, I can see why someone would get there, why you could get there.

I, I, I don't have that ability or that gene.

Um,

I just, because I didn't believe it.

I did not believe it for a single second.

I don't believe someone who espouses the hatred that Kirk did is capable of forgiveness.

I don't even think they believe in forgiveness.

And so

I just could not get there.

But I hope that

she has the space to mourn and to care for her young children and that they have the space to mourn.

You know, I think those are the truly innocent people in all of this.

And

I would never wish anyone harm, but I don't believe that she has forgiven the man that killed her husband.

But, you know, I, and I don't believe that her saying it

quelled anything.

I think it was just

It was like performance really is the only thing I can think of.

But I hope and, you know, we'll see.

I think that, but, and, you know, like her actions speak very loudly, the fact that she is now the CEO of Turning Point.

Like, right.

Oh, so we're going to pick up where we left off.

Before we head to break, just a quick bit of housekeeping here.

Vote Save America is running a first-of-its-kind pilot program to recruit candidates from Arizona and North Carolina and Texas.

We're talking about school board, city council, state legislature, races that really shape our communities and they build the bench for long-term Democratic power.

So even if you're not from one of those states, they will connect you with incredible national partners at the National Democratic Training Committee and run for something, both organizations that will get you set up and ready to run anywhere in this great country.

Vote Save America will be hosting a live call this Tuesday, October 7th at 5 p.m.

Pacific, 8 p.m.

Eastern Time to welcome new people to the program.

And the great and inimitable Tommy Vitor will be there, along with Vote Save America's partners who are driving this work to break down and explain what it takes to run and how we will support you every single step of the way.

If you have even thought about running, if it has even been in your wildest dreams, this is the place to start.

So sign up for the call and learn more at votesaveamerica.com/slash run.

Paid for by Vote Save America.

Learn more at votesaveamerica.com.

This ad has not been authorized by any candidate candidate or candidates committee.

Pod Save America is brought to you by Quince.

As the weather cools, I'm swapping in clothes that actually get the job done: warm, durable, and built to last.

And Quince delivers every time with wardrobe staples that'll carry you through the season.

Quince has the kind of fall staples you actually want to wear on repeat, like 100% Mongolian cashmere from just $60, classic fit denim and real leather and wool outerwear that looks sharp and holds up.

They've got a great suede trucker jacket.

It's perfect for layering and just looks really casual, but put together by partnering directly with ethical factories and top artisans.

Quince cuts out the middleman to deliver premium quality at half the cost of similar brands.

I'm a huge fan of Quince.

I have lots of great stuff from there, not just clothes, but sheets.

And

they have great bags.

They have like all kinds of stuff.

You basically can go check there and they have just all kinds of, you know, make it a go-to place to look for your kind of fall wardrobe or anything else.

I'm browsing right now.

He's browsing.

He's browsing.

Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look.

Go to quince.com slash crooked for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too.

That's q-u-i-n-ce-e.com slash crooked.

Free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quince.com slash crooked.

Want a career with purpose?

As a U.S.

Border Patrol agent, you'll safeguard our nation from deadly threats.

Competitive pay, benefits, and training provided.

Join our talent network today.

Visit careers.cb.gov to learn more.

You are someone that tells the truth about what you think.

Unfortunately.

No, well, I think too, you know, it's incredible.

I think there are obviously people that are going to disagree with you, but it's like you're an incredible writer.

You're very compelling.

And I think the piece about civility is very provocative.

It really engenders a lot of conversation, and that I think is a good thing for society, even if you don't necessarily disagree with what you're writing about.

How do you look at the really concerted,

really unprecedented effort on the part of this administration to go after

public critics, journalists,

anybody who's out there speaking in an uncensored way about the ills of this president and his allies.

That's terrifying.

I mean, it has, like,

I've been struggling with writer's block for years now, and this has not helped because

I have a family now, and

it's not even about what could happen to me.

Which I don't relish the thought of anything happening to me.

It's that

other people could be harmed.

Because Because historically, I've gotten death threats for about 10 or 11 years now.

I've had to have security at almost every public event that I do.

It's really disconcerting to have to be followed around by men who are armed just because I have a few opinions that quite honestly are not particularly radical.

It's terrifying and it makes me

afraid to write, to really write.

Like I have not written the things that I really want to write because I just am not willing.

Like, my risk tolerance, as I've gotten older, now that I'm married, like, I have a, you know, my parent, well, my dad, my brother, their kids, like, I just, my risk tolerance is much lower than it used to be when it was just kind of me.

And that's because people have called my parents' house.

They have

sent insane emails, and not just one, but like hundreds, sometimes in a single day.

And so,

on the one hand, it's like, oh, someone has a lot of free time.

But on the other hand, you don't know which one of those people is actually going to show up at your doorstep or at your public event.

Like, I did an event two days ago, and I was just like, and I think about this every time I go on stage, but I was like, oh, gosh, I hope today is not the day.

And so, wow, really?

Yeah, really.

And we had two bodyguards in the wings.

And it was

like, oh, thank God they're there.

But what a shame that they're there.

And

it just,

you know, it's like, the price for doing this kind of work should not be, I'm afraid for my life and the lives of all the people who have joined me in these public spaces.

Like, that's just ridiculous.

And I think we should all agree on that.

And same with, like I said, with Charlie Kirk, like the price for having odious odious opinions is not death and it shouldn't be harassment.

But here we are.

As we think about kind of the stakes, right?

And I'm just listening to this example you cite about literally being afraid for your life as you speak your opinion publicly.

Some people say we are on the brink of authoritarianism.

And some people just say

we are under the rule of an authoritarian leader.

First of all, do you think the distinction makes a difference?

Yes.

And where do you think we are?

Oh, we are definitely

under authoritarian rule.

My parents are from Port-au-Prince, Haiti.

They fled a dictatorship.

I grew up understanding what a dictatorship is and what authoritarianism is, like many children of immigrants.

And since January 6th, my dad has just been shaking his head in disbelief.

And over the past several months, like he, for me, he's the canary in the coal mine.

And he is like, oh, wow, we are in a dictatorship.

And he is disgusted and understandably so.

So I think we're already there.

I do not know how much worse it's going to get.

I don't know when it's going to get better.

But I do know that very few dictatorships last very long.

And I do try to remember that.

That is our cold comfort.

I do wonder, though, as we think about the net effect of these years beyond the partisan divide, the kind of chasmic partisan divide and the isolation and the sense of disassociation within one country.

I wonder about like our ability to like even determine the truth at the end of it all, right?

Like I'm thinking about, I think there was a moment two weeks ago, it's all a blur when President Trump was tweeting out about Tylenol causing autism and you responded saying, how are there no guardrails?

You also mentioned some things about Democrats.

Just focus on on the guardrail.

I mean, my reaction was cosine, what?

And I wonder what you think the net effect of like this

period, I guess, new era, I'm not sure where we are here, of misinformation and calculated disinformation, like where that leaves us as a society, as someone who's interested in words and the truth and meaning,

someone who's, you know, a professor and like is in the industry of teaching people the truth.

What happens when the truth truth becomes so atomized or fungible?

That's a good question.

And we're finding out in real time.

It's a really dangerous, dangerous time because,

and,

you know, you say, like, are we there yet?

We're there for so many reasons.

And the dismantling of higher education, trying to get rid of the Department of Education, the way that they are trying to undermine scientific research, the way that they're trying to

keep international students out of the country.

All of this is part of a plan, which again, we already know about because we have the PDF.

They released it and then they did it.

Project 2025.

Imagine.

Imagine.

It was, what is it?

But that you have to read?

Required reading.

Yes.

It was absolutely like we, you know, either you did your homework or you didn't.

But,

you know, we're seeing the way they're trying to erode knowledge.

And we have to continually remind ourselves that science is real, facts matter.

And we have to do that work to make sure that we are as well informed as possible.

And I also believe we have to demand that there should be guardrails.

Like

the president is going to build a ballroom that is larger than the East Wing, and there's no like congressional approval required.

I think a lot of us

thought that the Constitution was stronger than it is turning out to be.

And it's interesting because Republicans oftentimes frame themselves as constitutionalists.

And now they're like,

we thought it was a suggestion.

Originalist.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's

bad, which is not the most eloquent thing I can say, but it is the truest thing I can say.

But I also think we have to resist the idea that

truth is fungible, that facts are fungible.

They're not.

Alternative facts are are not, there are no alternative facts.

No, there really aren't.

By the way, just a declaration of principles right there.

When Kellyanne Conway said there are alternative facts, everybody should have been listening a little harder.

Yes.

Here we are.

And that's what's so interesting about them.

They're actually not devious.

They're not slick.

They're very blunt tool.

Here is it.

Here it is.

Let me go to McDonald's.

They're just very plain about what they're going to do.

Well,

at risk of sounding like a fan of the strategy, they're also,

they don't give a shit.

No.

They just say it and they do it.

And I think probably there's a lesson in there.

As we began this conversation talking about the hand-wringing by some elected Democrats and in the context of a shutdown, it's like, you know, Trump has taught the country that you can be very declarative and very explicit.

And I think that's actually my biggest issue with the Democrats.

And it's what I'm yearning to see from them.

Care less.

Keep caring, but care less about the response.

Make better choices about what you care about.

Just do it.

Like,

it's not admirable, but it's fascinating to see the way that the Trump administration does not care about

permission, public opinion.

They don't care.

Like this ridiculous, and I'm writing about it right now, the compact that they want universities to sign, basically it's sort of like a 10-page bend the knee and let us reshape you.

It's completely wild.

Every single democratic norm that has existed has been shattered.

And they're like, we are just getting started.

And I don't think that's a way to lead at all.

I do not think that we should lower ourselves to what they're doing.

But I do think that

with whatever they believe, Democratic politicians should care less about what people are going to say or what people are going to think and fight the good fight.

And I think we have some really great examples.

I think Mom Donnie in New York is incredibly interesting.

I'm always a little suspicious of anyone who wants to run for office, but he has genuinely fresh ideas.

Are they going to be realistic?

I don't know.

But who cares?

Like, it's at least trying.

And his ideas are like, yes, let's make sure that people can eat.

Let's make sure that people have a roof over their head.

Why are we objecting to any of this?

It's great.

And so I would love to just see more politicians take some big swings at things that we all deserve.

And big swings.

They're popular.

These ideas are popular.

I'm going to take hope in the idea that Roxanne Gay has found something to celebrate in American political life, which is someone taking a big swing out there.

That makes me feel good at the end of the conversation.

And even AOC, like I think she's brilliant and interesting.

She's plain spoken.

She doesn't pull punches Jasmine Crockett.

Let's also look to the people who are doing really great stuff.

And there are, in fact, some Democratic leaders who are doing a lovely job, especially under these circumstances.

These are extraordinary circumstances.

Well,

you know, I applaud you for the sort of courage to

be out there and to take the risks and to write

eloquently and very compellingly about stuff that's pretty complicated and disheartening.

And like I said, I just think the piece you, well, all of your writing is worth reading, but the most recent one was incredibly provocative and really, like, really made me think.

And I'm really appreciative that you could take some time to chat with us all about it.

Thanks for for your time.

Of course, thank you for having me, Alex.

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com/slash friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube, or Apple Podcasts.

Also, please consider leaving us a review.

That helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked.

Pod Save America is a crooked media production.

Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank, and Saul Rubin.

Our associate producer is Farah Safari.

Austin Fisher is our senior producer.

Reed Sherlin is our executive editor.

Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics.

The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.

Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

Matt DeGroote is our head of production.

Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant.

Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelavieve, David Toles, and Ryan Young.

Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

This Supreme Court term kicks off with no shortage of chaos on the docket.

In October alone, the justices will weigh whether cops can break into your home without a warrant, whether bans on conversion therapy for LGBTQ kids count as censorship, and whether states can gerrymander, or must gerrymander, majority black districts.

It's a term packed with questions that cut to the heart of free speech, voting rights, and the power of the police.

And on strict scrutiny, we're here to cut through the noise with a carefully honed balance of legal expertise and plenty of Smack Talk.

New episodes drop every Monday.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.