Affordable Healthcare is Worth Fighting For

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Welcome to Pod Save America.

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

And I'm Alex Wagner.

John is off today.

Alex, thank you for filling in for him on what is going to be a very big show.

Oh, huge.

I mean, listen, I don't,

I can't make it unless it's a big show.

You know what I'm saying?

Yes, that's right.

You have in your deal that it has to be a certain level of goodness before you appear on this podcast.

Yes, I am.

If you have a national emergency, I'm in.

If this is just a little bit more,

good, because...

Yeah, well, we're always in an emergency.

So.

Yes, well, we're in several emergencies today.

So, as we will see, on today's show, Pete Hagseth lectures America's top military leaders about weight loss, physical fitness, and grooming.

Donald Trump tries to extort universities in becoming more MAGA, and Trump loses two huge court cases.

But first, it loomed, then it barreled.

And shortly after midnight on Wednesday, the government shut down.

The earliest it could reopen is Friday, when the Senate is scheduled to vote after members return from the Yom Kippur holiday, but that vote is expected to fail.

Democrats have held the line on their demand that ACA subsidies, which are set to expire at the end of the year, be extended, while Republicans have maintained, as Speaker Johnson said at a news conference, that they have, quote, literally nothing to negotiate.

With no bipartisan agreement in sight, Senate Majority Leader John Thune is now attempting to peel off a handful of Democratic senators, but President Trump doesn't seem too anxious to reopen the government anytime soon.

He and Republicans seem to be relishing the opportunity to inflict as much pain on as many people as possible.

Alex, we are 40 or so hours into the shutdown as we record.

How are you feeling?

I mean, I think we live in the upside down, Dan, when Republicans are trying to like care about, pretend that they care about funding the government and the appropriations process when they've literally bent the knee and like done a blood oath to the man who has completely vaulted over the legislative process and wants to do nothing but strip the government down to its studs.

So, yeah, I mean, it feels weird, right?

It's a complete inversion of the party's normal stances, and that is odd.

I am heartened to some degree, and we'll talk more about this,

by the fact that Democrats are hanging together.

And for the most part, that they've done something differently, because I think these abnormal times call for unusual measures.

I think the strategy itself is pretty complicated.

And I worry that the American public,

you know, until Yellowstone closes down, We have a history as a country of not caring probably enough about federal bureaucracy and what happens to federal workers, and they exist in a kind of liminal space, I think, as far as the American imagination.

But I think it's good that all the stories about this shutdown begin with an explanation about what Republicans are trying to do to American healthcare, and that we are having at least the beginnings.

of a conversation about healthcare costs and what the Big Beautiful Bill Act has done and the sort of priorities of the Republican Party as it concerns the welfare of the most vulnerable in our society.

So that part seems good,

but I'd like to see a lot.

I mean, I'd like to see a lot more

coordination and creativity and ambition as far as

where the Democrats are at, at least from a messaging perspective.

Yeah, we'll get to the message in a second.

You're right.

There is this very awkward dynamic, which is the Republicans are the ones who've initiated every other shutdown in recent American history and generally want to see the government.

They want to, in their own parlance, drown the government in a bathtub.

And they, and so they are, they're so insincere and awkward in arguing for the government to be reopened.

Like that doesn't, like, it just does not compute for them.

And the Democrats have always been the ones who have argued that the government is important and should stay open.

And like, we can have this long epistemological argument about who's really at fault here, but Democrats are the ones who are demanding something in this process, but also the ones who seem to care the most about the federal workers who are furloughed or the people who are impacted by the projects or the initiatives that are being temporarily shut down due to the shutdown.

So everyone is a little, you're right.

It's like, that's a good way of putting it.

We're sort of in the upside down where no one really kind of knows.

They're playing the opposite role and that's uncomfortable for them.

And so, you know, it's, we are, as I said, we're 40 hours into this.

What is probably most notable to me is that there really is

no conversation about how to solve the the problem.

Republicans have no interest in having that conversation.

They're not willing to compromise.

Compromise equals surrender.

And so there is no like gang of 12 off meeting somewhere or anything else.

It's just we are, everyone's just staring at each other.

Maybe that'll change after the weekend, but right now it's, we're just sort of like stuck in this place and it feels like we could be here for a while.

Well, yeah, there, I mean, and there's the fundamental reality that like in the interim, Republicans under the leadership of both Trump and Russell Vogt at OMB are just doing the thing they've always wanted to do.

It's like playing chicken with someone who very badly wants to drive a car off a cliff, whose like lifelong dream has been like, Thelma and Louise style, let's gun the engine and go.

And you've finally been given an opportunity to do that and they're not trying to stop, you know?

So that's a sort of

that's a structural problem in any strategy in this situation.

Yeah, it's been the structural problem in every shutdown where everyone, where the positions are reversed, which is we actually are responsible.

We actually care what happens to people.

And if they don't, it's very hard.

You can't negotiate with people like that.

And then this time there's theoretically the ones that serve the government and they can't pretend to actually care.

Like as we're watching this, right, Trump and Republicans are trying very hard to project confidence.

They are, it's all bluster and swagger from the Trump White House on down.

The press, you know, it seems to believe, maybe even some Democrats seem to believe Republicans have the upper hand politically in this.

Do you agree?

I mean, I don't think it's a great sign that like within 24 hours, they've peeled off three Democratic senators, right?

I think it's, you know,

I think the fact that Trump has ordered federal agencies to have sort of banners on their website saying, this agency is not able to operate at full tilt because of a Democrat-led shutdown, you know, he is doing things that are clear violations of the Hatch Act.

But like, whatever, the Hatch Act went the way of the dodo bird some eight years ago.

Well, they fired the people who enforced it.

Exactly.

So that's no longer an issue.

But I mean, the lawlessness and the

sort of wanton

the lawlessness and the rules not applying to them are really being, you know, it ratchets up to like a degree that we haven't seen before in typical fights, right?

Like they will weaponize every part of the federal bureaucracy to have a partisan fight with Democrats.

They have a president who's utterly reckless and they have a real sociopath who's like picking and choosing which blue states to fuck over hardest,

given an opportunity to shrink the federal workforce in a period of like government shutdown.

So,

you know, I do think they have some real leverage here.

Having said that, I mean, Dan, the polling is good for Democrats on the issue of healthcare for right now.

And I think, again, I go back to what I said at the beginning.

I think it's good that that's what the stories have to lead with.

This is why Democrats are doing this, because this is the reality for

many people, if not the the majority of Americans who are on either the exchanges or whose insurance premiums are going to rise, which is like everybody who's in a pool that's affected by fewer healthy people being in the pool.

So is a lot of the country.

So, you know,

I think

they at least for the moment have a hand to play and on an issue that really matters.

I mean, they obviously have the substantive upper hand here, right?

They're the ones who get to decide what goes on the websites.

They can change the White House comment line to be Caroline Levitt's voice attacking Democrats, as they have done.

They can make threats like a bunch of two-bit mafiosos about how they're going to hurt these people or hurt that people.

You know, it's like really nice government you have there.

It's too bad you shut it down.

Now we can destroy it.

Like all of, they can do all of that stuff.

But I do think Republicans.

think they can only win and Democrats think they can't win, sort of in our mentality.

And you can see it in the body language of Democrats in this.

Like a lot of people, I mean, there are exceptions, but a lot of the people are out there speaking, it feels like they are, they were either dragged into this or they're just like waiting around until the bottom falls out and we lose.

And I think the Democrats have a much stronger hand here than we think.

One, we're doing this over an incredibly popular issue.

I mean, one, we have an advantage on healthcare.

It's the one issue we have an advantage on these days.

But on the specific question of extending the Obamacare tax credits, there's a Kaiser Family Foundation poll from earlier this summer, which showed that huge majorities of people wanted them extended, large majorities of Republicans, and a narrow majority of self-identified MAGA Republicans think they should be extended.

There's a Washington Post poll out this morning, which shows that on the question of who's responsible for the shutdown, 17% more people think it's Trump and the Republicans than Democrats.

And that's consistent with a bunch of polls we saw before.

It could change now that we're in it.

But I think every Democrat seems to think that we are in a messaging fight or political fight against the Donald Trump that won the popular vote in seven, all seven battleground states in 2024.

That is not the case.

Donald Trump's poll numbers today are not good.

All the people he made grounds with, if you look at the New York Times Sienna poll from this past weekend, or sorry, we look at the New York Times Senna poll from earlier this week, have abandoned him.

His games with young people, gone.

His game with Latinos, gone.

His games with non-white, non-college educated voters, gone.

And so Donald Trump's approval rating right now.

At this exact moment in time, is almost exactly what it was the week before the 2018 elections when Democrats picked up 40 seats.

If we were in a shutdown fight with that Donald Trump in October of 2018, we would have thought we would kick his ass.

And so we do have to adjust our mentality.

There's a learned helplessness in how Democrats are approaching this.

Some Democrats, I think, are approaching this to think we can't beat this guy.

We can't win.

We're too inept.

We're too insecure in our position.

And I think we actually can, but we have to have the winning mentality to do it.

Well, does that make you feel any better?

Yeah, totally.

Can you just put that on my voicemail so I can play it?

Like tomorrow?

Like Caroline Leather.

We will add it to the curriculum.

Just Just Dan Pfeiffer.

That's what we need.

But also it gets at kind of beliefs that the American public hold about each party.

And I think that Democrats have an advantage there, right?

Like it is on sort of a truism in American politics that Democrats care more about people.

Sometimes that comes back.

to bite them in the ass or seen as caring about too many people or too

small a group of people in too big a too big a fashion or caring over being strategic uh with the nation's finances or whatever it is.

I'm not saying any of that's necessarily true, but the impression widely and deeply held is that Democrats care more about the health and welfare of the American public and they are fighting a battle on that territory.

And

I think that's how you win, right?

Like, you don't, you don't have to reinvent the wheel here.

People understand this to be something that's a priority for the party, and it sort of it's a natural extension of party priorities for them to be fighting this fight.

They don't have to pretend to be anything that they aren't.

And so, they should take an advantage of that.

Um, as you mentioned, three Democrats have been peeled off.

Catherine Cortez-Mesto, John Federman, and Ancus King, an independent caucus with Democrats, all voted to open the government the last time there was a vote.

Are you worried that Democrats could fold before too long, or do you think Schumer can keep them in line?

I mean, how fast can you record that voicemail and send it out?

That's right.

That's a good point.

Browser.

Send me back to the Senate caucus, people.

Get him back up on the hill.

They've been saying, where's Pfeiffer on the hill?

I think the fact, I just want to say, I think the fact that Schumer and Jeffries are even doing this is a testament to the degree to which they want to hold the coalition together.

They're doing this because progressives were like, we're not fucking doing this again.

We need to extract something.

We need to fight.

We need to have a backbone.

We need to go.

And I think that they should be, you know, I think there should be some acknowledgement of the fact that they, you know, they're really trying to hold the party together and they're doing something that is gutsy, right?

I mean, and put very risky, high risk, high reward.

So

that's a positive, I think, data point in all of this, that leadership is, you know, willing to take some risks

in the sake of sort of preventing intra-party mutiny and holding folks together.

I think the pressure is going to be extraordinary.

I think Jon Thun's going to keep calling for votes on this every day.

And he's going to try and smoke out one more Democratic member, and it's going to be an enormous strain on the coalition.

But listen, this is where all, you you know, facets of the Democratic coalition from activists, grassroots voters, you know, people that care about the future of our society collectively,

they need to make their voices heard as much.

I mean, right?

It can't just be a battle that's fought by the lone soldiers on the hill.

Like, I really feel like this is where people who are listening to this podcast and people who give a shit about their parents and their parents' health care and their health care in the future need to be part of keeping the sort of beach ball in the air to use a weird club med metaphor.

And like, if that can happen, it will give them strength.

But like, the more we second-guess the strategy and say it's a losing hand and say, you know, they're going to cave, the easier it will be for them to cave because they're, you know, on the front lines and Republicans are going to use every tactic they can to try and fracture the coalition and they don't need that many more votes.

Like, there's always a fear that Democrats will capitulate.

Like, that is possible.

Senate Republicans also have capitulated and shut down.

Senators generally are uncomfortable with all this.

They'd rather be like doing something, or at least previous generations of Republican senators would rather be doing something than shutting down the government.

But there are some dynamics that lend themselves to staying in the fight.

One is the last time there was a shutdown that Democrats kind of sort of initiated, it was the,

we call it the Waffle House shutdown over here at Crooked Media, but it was over, it was to, it was in 2018, I think.

Yes.

It was in 2018 to try to demand that Trump help the Dreamers and

Democrats folded over the weekend.

Now, what led to the surrender that time was all, there are a whole bunch of Democrats in tough seats who are up for election in 2018, and they had wanted no part of this.

In this situation, you only have one incumbent Democrat in a very tough race, and that is John Oslo in Georgia.

And he seems to be fully on board with this strategy.

And so you're not going to get that sort of pressure because the other people that they're like targeting who could bail is like Jean Shaheen, who's retiring.

And it's like, is she really going to, because she voted the last time to keep the government open, is she really going to do that again?

It's like, I've seen people who are retiring take a tough vote to help other members.

I'm not really sure who she's helping here, if John Osoff is okay with this.

And so that, that does help.

And the way that Trump and the Republicans are overplaying their hands so much here, refusing to negotiate, as we'll get to, trying to exert pain on as many people as possible.

Like that doesn't help that like hardens people's positions, doesn't soften them.

So I don't like, I don't know if I'm being Pollyannish about this, but I think that Democrats are going to are willing to stay in this for a while

because Trump is already screwing over doing all these terrible things when the government was open.

So it's not like there's like one world where the grass is really green and there's a world we're in.

It kind of sucks in both places.

And so I think there's a, I think there's a chance that Democrats could stick here.

And I think they probably also understand that Schumer has a lot of stake in this.

And if they bail before he does, then he like he will, like he's already, his poll numbers are already terrible at Democrats.

He has a potential primary in 2028.

They would be doing him a great disservice if, and it's sort of an act of disloyalty if they abandoned the fight before he did.

Yeah.

And like the fact that he got into a fight is a testament to the degree to which he wants to.

I don't know the word is an appease, but like I said, he is trying to be a unifying figure figure in all this.

So maybe don't mutiny against the captain.

Do you have any ideas on how this possibly ends

other than the government stays shut down indefinitely?

Dan Pfeiffer's voicemail is going to change the

I mean, I guess the best case scenario is the White House offering a deal on extending ACA subsidies and the government opens, reopens and everybody tries to take credit.

I mean, I feel like the fact that the White House is making overtures towards, you know, how much the president cares about health care by negotiating with Pfizer or whatever, you know, these sort of fig leafs that they're offering to the American public as rejoinders to the contention that the White House is populated by cruel people who don't care about Americans and their health care.

That's a testament to, they know this is an issue that they could lose on.

So maybe there's some deal to be made there.

But I mean, I don't think that this is going to reframe, you know, I think an important part of this, if you're in the legislative branch, is an assurance that the shit you pass in Congress doesn't just get overridden by the president and they're trying to stop that process from happening again.

The rescission nonsense.

Because like, what's the point of Congress if the president can just be like, yeah, you know what, never mind, whatever you did, that doesn't count.

I don't think that's going to get solved in this.

I just have a very hard time that Trump or the Republicans are going to accede to that demand at all in any way.

But I mean, I'm hopeful.

I'm hopeful that

some kind of of semi-sanity and mutual vested interest in this can lead to some movement on the ACA and everybody can just agree that they're going to take credit for it and pretend like it was their handiwork and that it's, you know, the Democrats get something meaningful and good out of it and don't harm the party in the process and maybe are emboldened to take big moves the next time there's an important fight.

I guess.

That's my hope.

That's my hope.

But I don't, I mean, like, or the filibuster could end.

That is one option.

The Republicans could, they could end the filibuster to pass this bill.

And they took like somewhat unprecedented set of moves around the big, beautiful bill, which were kind of akin to eliminating to deal.

They were basically, they were willing to go nuclear in some ways to get the big, beautiful bill, the budget bill, whatever you want to call it, out.

They could do that here.

Trump does not like the filibuster.

I'm not sure there are enough votes among the Republican caucus to do that right yet, but maybe, you know, weeks from now, that could possibly be the case.

I think one possible outcome here, and this is once again, me possibly being Pollyannish, which is something I've never done before.

I know, I don't think of you as a Pollyanna-like figure, Jane.

No one does.

Hey, I'm happy to have you wear that crown.

Yeah, I just maybe, I don't know what it is today.

I

slept better last night than the night before.

It must be you.

It's the, it is the true pleasure of doing this podcast with someone other than Jon Favreau has turned me into a glass half-full kind of lightness in your heart.

Yeah, okay.

Yes.

So, one way this possibly ends is that Trump becomes convinced that extending these tax credits is good for him.

Yeah.

Right.

Earlier this summer, a memo went around that showed just how critical it was for Republicans' chances in the midterms to extend these tax credits.

The author of that memo, or one of the two authors of that memo, was Tony Fabrizio, his pollster, who obviously is working for the insurance companies on some sort of insurance company funded project to get this done.

But

like if he sees, look, if he sees that this is good for him politically or the increase in premiums is bad for him politically and could hurt the chances of the midterm, then you could see him cutting a deal and trying to take credit for it.

That's one, that is one possible way this is.

I feel like that's our best case scenario, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

That's probably the best case scenario.

Now,

there are some questions here.

Like, does do we

do they open the government for some period of time, a week, two weeks, a month till the beginning till after the Christmas holidays to have a negotiation around this to try to get something done.

Like, is that one press?

And then we're right back at it.

Uh, because they still, once they get the CR, they still have to theoretically pass, come to a longer-term budget agreement

to actually fund the government for more than some short period of time.

And that's the point where they're going to have to have the rescission conversation, where Democrats, like, if they're going to be, if there's going to be anything other than short-term CRs ad finitum, then

you're going to have to have some provision which says the president cannot unilaterally undo this deal because there is something very, very wrong with a budget process that requires 60 votes to pass the budget, but 50 votes to undo the deal.

Totally.

And so we'll have to see what that goes.

But I think there's a chance if Democrats hang in there and they message better, and we'll get to the messaging in a bit, I think there's a world in which they could

come away with a victory here of some kind.

Listen, Dan, I just hope that my jam band, CRs Forever, ad infinitum, like never never takes off.

You know, what a sentence I just uttered.

Just really, my brain is broken.

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Let's turn to the man that has the power to make this shutdown as painful as possible for Democrats and, frankly, every American.

Russ Vote, the former architect of Project 2025, turned OMB director.

Trump met with Vote earlier today to discuss which, quote, Democrat agencies vote would permanently cut during the shutdown.

Voters also threatened mass firings at federal agencies and said that layoffs would begin in a day or two.

Additionally, Vogt immediately froze $8 billion in funding for a series of biden-era clean energy infrastructure projects in predominantly blue states, as well as $18 billion in funding for an infrastructure project in New York City, which happens to be the home of Democratic leaders Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumers.

For all intents and purposes, Russ Vogt appears to be relishing the opportunity.

A shutdown presents something Senator Mike Lee says he's been planning for quite some time.

Let's take a listen.

This is what they're doing.

They're doing it deliberately.

It's going to to harm them because Russ Vogt, the OMB director, has been dreaming about this moment, preparing this moment since puberty.

Russ Vogt has a plan, and that plan is going to succeed in empowering, further empowering Trump.

This is going to be the Democrats' worst night.

All right, so.

And it's of their own making.

Alex,

do you want to unpack what Senator Mikely has to say here about Russ Vogt and his motivations?

Thanks for putting the image of Russ Vogt in puberty in my mind,

Mikely.

Don't thank me.

Can I see that?

Also, doesn't that explain it all?

Like, oh, this is what Russ Vote was thinking about during puberty.

Well, yeah,

that explains today.

Some people, modern Republican Party, right?

That's what you were thinking of in those crucial, critical developmental years, slashing the size of the federal government.

I think he's essentially suggesting that for Russ vote, this is sexual.

This is a wet dream.

Let's just say it's a wet dream.

I'm sorry.

I said these things.

Can we delete it?

I don't know.

know just name the podcast

name name the podcast i don't know my god gross all right i've barfed in my mind um

this is

this is the problem this is the this is the problem right i mean first of all this is not normal it is not normal to be torturing commuters in New Jersey and New York and punishing 220,000 workers in California and targeting Minnesota's

energy grid.

Like that's what's happening here.

This is like wanton and cruel and highly unusual to have some, let's call it

a weird guy who has had a passion, a zeal, an anti-bureaucratic, anti-federal government, anti, I don't know, just a zealot at the OMB giving him free reign to wreak havoc and own the libs in like the most like potentially disastrous fashion as it concerns the role of the federal government and its its impact on American lives.

Like these are projects that will make us resilient, energy independent, clean the air, make us competitive internationally with superpowers that are in many ways way ahead of us.

Like this is literally shooting ourselves in the feet, hurting us

because you just want to like just, because torture is fun.

This is like the, the, the, the, the Republican fiscal hog version of like finding someone's cat and skinning it, right?

Like this is not.

jesus it is

i'm sorry it's like the wet dream the skin cat it's also disgusting everybody's turned this podcast off so you and i can just like get real but it is it is so foul and i don't think we should let the cruelty that is inherent in all of this go

unnoticed um

and and like at the same time it's it's deeply problematic right this is what i mean about playing chicken with a group of people who have been like just dying to gun the engine and drive the car off the cliff.

Like this is Russell Vogt sitting there, like twiddling his fingers and deciding which blue state and which lib program to unwind and like kneecap

next.

And that's scary.

This is a project he's had in mind for,

you know, Project 2025 turns out it's totally real, Dan.

And that guy is now pulling the levers.

So, I mean, I find the whole thing terrifying and not just because this is the fantasy he's had since puberty.

Yeah, it's, I mean, it is worth noting that throughout the entire campaign, Donald Trump departments are like, Project 2025 is a hoax.

And then Donald Trump truths out today.

I'm meeting with the head of Project 2025, Russ Vote.

Exactly.

Oh, oh, you were full of shit then.

I see.

I see.

I think

these guys, I think Russ Vote and Donald Trump, the rest of these guys are either full of shit or they're dumb as hell.

Because

you can cut all these programs for blue states.

Like you can theoretically do that because the Supreme Court will let Donald Trump do anything.

But

guess who's up in November?

Totally.

It's not Chuck Schumer in New York.

It's a bunch, it's Mike Lawler and a bunch of very vulnerable House Republicans.

All these blue, the House is going to be decided in blue states.

Yep.

And so if you want to, if they want to use this opportunity to attack blue states, that is going to, that is such a self-defeating, stupid thing to do, which I think they are trying to talk a tough game to try to convince Democrats to fold here.

Like a lot, if you read the fine print, a lot of what they're doing is freezing funding.

You know, like in the case of the New York Infrastructure Project, they're doing a DEI review of the funding, and they can't do it because they furloughed all the civil rights people who do DEI reviews.

And so I do think

they are a little bit of trying to talk tough here to try to scare Democrats.

There's also real legal questions.

There's a report today in the Washington Post that the like agency lawyers have told, have told the cabinet secretaries, you probably don't want to do these layoffs because it probably violates the law.

Although, you know,

that hasn't stopped stopped them in the past, but you know, yeah, they might, I mean, they might fire them, like they might fire them, a court may put them back, another court may undo them, and then we go to the Supreme Court, and that outcome we sort of know what happens there.

But once again, they're talking a better game than the hand they're actually.

But I mean, even the talk is sick, like, this isn't how it's supposed to work.

You don't get to do this, you don't get to just torture people as a partisan mechanism.

And I, I, I just think it's it's

to see the glee, even in that Mike Lee clip, the joy.

Yes.

Right.

It's so, it's so, it's so cruel.

It's so dark.

It's so fucked up.

And like, it shouldn't be.

It just, I mean, I just, I, I marinate in, in, in, in, and just the sort of precedent that sets and the sort of, the, the, the, the new age of this Republican Party.

Back in April when Democrats decided to fund the government, one of Schumer's big arguments was he was very worried that vote would do to the government agencies exactly what he's doing right now during the shutdown.

Does this give you any second thoughts about the strategy?

I mean, I have second thoughts about the strategy all the time.

And at the same time, I think it was the only strategy that could have been pursued.

You know,

I just think

I have a real aversion to business as usual because nothing here is normal.

And

it could all, you know, it could blow up in everyone's face.

But I do think you have to try and do something bold and different, something that sort of resets the conversation.

You know, it's risky.

I have no idea what Russ Vote's going to be able to do.

I think that you make a really important and astute point about how politically this could be costly on just a policy level and then a political level.

And you have to hold on to that in a moment like this.

We're just in terra incognito.

So like, yeah, I mean, maybe Chuck Schumer was right, but the last time Chuck Schumer saved Republican asses, that didn't go over so well either.

And it's like, we can't keep like, Democrats can't keep doing the same thing over and over again because the administration is acting with impunity.

And this is the first time

there's a little bit of softshoe back and forth with Democrats over an issue that really matters.

Yeah, I mean, there is, there is no risk-free options here.

Yeah.

Right.

There are, as we, as we saw from funding the government, there was great risk in that.

Think of all the things that happened with government funding since the Democrats funded it this spring.

It is like, you just have to be willing to take some risks.

And if you truly believe we are in an extraordinary time facing an extraordinary threat, then you can, and you have to respond in kind.

You can't respond in just simple, ordinary politics.

And like, like, you're right.

Like, this could go terribly.

It absolutely could go terrible.

It could go terribly politically.

It could go terribly substantively.

It's bad for the economy.

There are people who are going to be hurt.

but things are not going great the other way either and you just have to take a risk i can i don't know what the downside is here i know there is some upside in the straight in the alternative universe where you just decided not to fight and funded the government through the election i know exactly what the downside is and i know there's no upside so this seems to be the you're like you need in these moments to have a high variant strategy and this is a high variant strategy even like we're playing with live ammo here like i want to be very clear about that like i remember sitting in the white house going through all the damage from the shutdown.

It is very real.

We take it very seriously.

But you also, on the other hand, have 15 million people whose premiums are going to skyrocket and they're not going to be able to go to the drugstore and get medicines.

They're not going to be able to go to the doctor.

People will...

They'll go bankrupt because of chemotherapy, as AOC explains to us.

This is very real.

And I will say, as someone that spent a lot of time with furloughed federal workers in the last prolonged government shutdown, who were people who had been working for the federal government for decades, who were in line at soup kitchens to get canned food because they could no longer afford their groceries.

There is a group of people who are doing the hard work of government who are going to get real fucked for every day this goes on.

And those lives are real.

Those people are real.

And man, it is a thankless job, especially right now,

filled with peril.

So like, you know, my heart and my thoughts go out to like the reality they're living as well.

I mean, just think about that.

These, some of these people were told when they left

their offices on Wednesday or on Tuesday, I guess, in anticipation of the shows in on Wednesday, to bring their work phones with them so that they could get a notice about layoffs if one were to come.

Like, imagine the anxiety that gives people because the whole point,

like one of the, like, if you're working for the government, you're going to have great benefits and you're going to have job security.

What you're not going to like, you're, but you're going to make less money than people would make for doing similar jobs in the private sector in many cases.

And now you have your job secure.

Now you live constantly on the precipice of losing your job.

At any moment, one of these MAGA, you know, Doge goons can just fire you, you know, and undermining a lot of why you took that job.

It really, it's a terrible, terrible situation.

I will just know.

And as part of this fight, we should try to protect these people, right?

That's one of the things we're trying to do.

The reason my mother came over here is because my grandmother was offered a job with the Library of Congress.

And like the U.S.

government.

got my family out of Burma, got my grandmother a job.

And like, the reason I'm on this earth in some ways is because of the federal bureaucracy and federal government work.

And that was like one of the best periods of her life.

They were saved from a country that was, you know, in the, and continues to be in the middle of chaos because of

government work.

And it was good work and it was important work.

And it like offered her a pension.

And

it just to see, you know, how those workers are treated now and like the gutting of that service is just so sad and also shameful because it's one of the things that I think has made this country great.

In the absence of negotiations, the shutdown has really become simply a messaging exercise.

Which side can exert enough political pain on the other to force compromise or surrender?

The Republicans have been out in full force all week, consistently pushing their admittedly ridiculous talking points about democratic demands.

Let's listen.

The Democrats said instead that they wanted to give health care to illegal aliens instead of keeping critical services provided for the American citizens.

That's what happened, plain and simple.

What they have done instead is to shut down the government because we won't give billions of dollars to healthcare funding for illegal aliens.

That is what has actually happened.

They are holding our country hostage.

They are holding the American people hostage for this wildly unpopular proposal to give taxpayer-funded benefits to illegals, and now they're lying about it and they know it.

Meanwhile, Democratic messaging has been a bit all over the map.

Some are talking about healthcare.

Some are trying to pin the blame for the shutdown on the GOP.

Others are very mad about some racist AI videos.

As just one example, the Democrats' official TikTok account account posted a video explaining the shutdown using cats.

One bright spot, though, has been this great video AOC and Bernie Sanders put out of them explaining their view on the shutdown.

Let's take a listen.

Why didn't you vote for this clean CR to keep the government up?

Well, there's nothing clean about it.

This is one of the dirtiest tricks that is being pulled on the American people right now.

Starting today, October 1st and throughout the rest of the month, Americans across this country are going to start start getting notifications that their insurance premiums are up to doubling.

A time when we are already paying by far the highest prices in the world for health care at a time when people can't afford it right now.

So Republicans want us to rubber stamp that and we're saying no.

We need to stand up for the American people.

We need to stand up for our health care system.

And if they want our votes, they need to make sure that we're protecting every American and making sure that we can do what we can to continue to make health care accessible affordable as we work to make it a human right for all all right let's start with the republicans alex can you just set the record straight on why their claims about health care for illegal aliens is complete and utter bullshit

people who do not have their papers to be here cannot access federally funded health care They are not eligible for Medicaid, Medicare.

They can't go on the ACA exchanges and buy health care.

There is a small group of migrants or immigrants who are here who are considered lawfully present to have access to this, but there is no world in which Democrats are fighting to get undocumented immigrants access to federally funded health care.

It is a lie.

It is also the most obvious, like they're running the only play they have really in moments of, you know, crisis, which is talk about illegals.

Just like, if something's going bad, like talk about illegals.

And this is, you know, like the people who were lawfully present in this country, who were able to access some federally funded health care, are people like refugees, people who have papers to be here temporarily, DACA recipients.

This is a small group of people who were made ineligible under the last funding bill or under the build back, under the one big beautiful, God, can we just call it something else?

Not the Republican budget bill.

The Republican budget bill.

And Democrats are seeking to restore their eligibility, but they are by no means trying to create a new set of subsidies or access to health care for people who do not have papers to be in the country legally.

And it's a lie.

And it's also race baiting.

And it's also just the, you know, more of the Republican bullshit to distract from what they're really trying to do, which is make, you know,

redistribute income to the top, you know, 0.01% and make everybody else pay for it.

Yeah, there's a couple of things here.

One, if Donald Trump had a poker tail, it would be when he starts lying about immigrants.

Yeah.

Like that's a sign when he knows he's, he's in trouble in some way, shape, or form.

If like that, that was the caravan in 2018.

This is such, like,

I just, I know everyone thinks they have the strongest hand, but this lie is so

just bold and brazen, and it's indefensible.

Like, they can't even go on regular to talk to actual reporters without getting just

massacred on it, right?

Like, it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny.

It also really, it's a real window into what they truly believe, which is

any immigrant, anyone who's here,

you know, has legal status is

not, is not a real person.

They are inhuman.

They are, they do not count.

And that, like, this is like, they, they like to pretend like, oh, we're fine with legal immigration.

It's illegal immigration we don't like.

Well, but in this case, they are taking, they are treating people who are here legally

for, you know, under an array of programs and saying they should not have access.

They should not be here.

And we're going to just call them illegal, right?

Like they're just, they're just lying about people because that's what, because in their mind, someone who was here legally, went through the process, who waited in line, did, you know, filed a legitimate amnesty claim,

came over here for humanitarian reasons because what's happening in Ukraine or Afghanistan or any of that, that they are exactly the same as someone who crossed the border illegally.

Right.

That's the same.

It is like, that is what is in their head.

That is the unspoken truth to their actual position.

And why are they the same, Dan?

Why are they the same?

Because they weren't born here.

Like, basically, it's nativism.

And they're not white.

And clean.

Because remember, we're welcoming this, the South African immigrants here, the white South African immigrants here.

Afrikaners.

Yeah.

That's another conversation for another time.

Yes.

Do you have any worry the American people will buy this bullshit?

I don't think so.

I actually think this is one where it's like, huh?

I mean, nobody's talking about that.

Democrats have, like, it's, it's, again, this goes back to, like, I think

one of the structural advantages Democrats have in this fight is like they are seen as a party that gives a shit about the sick and the poor and health care.

Like they're it's called Obamacare.

You know what I mean?

Like it's a party plank.

And the Democrats are saying unanimously and with one voice, this is about fighting for, you know,

ensuring that costs don't go up on insurance premiums and people have access to health care.

And I think the canard that this is, you know, Democrats trying to pay for, you know,

trans,

undocumented migrants, like healthcare is so, it's such a convoluted and pathetic and destructive narrative.

I, I just, I have more faith in the American people and I just don't think it takes,

it's already baked in.

Like, I think people understand why Democrats are fighting this fight because they've basically been fighting this fight since I was five.

You know, like this has been going on for a while.

Yeah, I think I'm not sure this is a believable claim that they would actually do this.

I, To the extent that you, where it has some potential efficacy, it's in this idea that Democrats are extreme on immigration issues.

This is, you know, this is sort of a similar reason why the

really infamous gross trans ad about Kamala Harris was effective.

It was not that people really thought that she was actually going to support taxpayer-funded gender-affirming care for undocumented people in prison.

It was that this is an indication that she's out of touch.

And so they're trying to play into that stereotype.

I just don't think this is their best argument, right?

This is the argument that gets their base fired up.

Their base is already fired up.

This is the argument that gets Fox News all fired up.

Fox News is already fired up.

Like, where, like, if they have an actual political task here, it's that most people think the Republicans are in the wrong here.

They think they're in the wrong on the shutdown, that they're actually responsible for this because they're because they control all of government, unwilling to negotiate.

And they think that they're wrong on the policy issue.

And so they're having an argument that is not of a piece of what the actual conversation is.

And like this, sometimes I, you know, you've been on it.

I do this recently returned YouTube show, Political Experts React, where we look at political ads and content.

And the ads that come from Republicans are often like they have Fox News brain on it, which is you can tell that the person who made the ad gets all of their information from right-wing media.

So they're making an ad that speaks to that audience.

And I think this argument is a little akin to that.

Well, and I also think, you know, people can be,

if it's an issue like immigration that doesn't necessarily touch people people at the kitchen table,

they can be lied to or the truth, the truth can be muddied.

But people give a shit about their healthcare premiums.

People give a shit about their access to doctors.

And they will find, you know what I mean?

This is not, people get to the bottom of it.

And I think it makes it harder to lie about what's actually happening here.

All right.

I've put this off long enough, but it's time for everyone's favorite topic.

Have you put this off?

I mean, I'm running out of room here, but everyone's favorite topic, democratic messaging.

Yeah.

Alex, what have you made about the democratic messaging so far?

Effective or not so much?

I mean, listen, let's talk about the

P, what do we call it, a public service announcement from AOC and Bernie?

I thought it was great.

Yep.

It's like, more of this.

Like, why is this, why has this been so elusive?

Like, plain speak, declarative, informative, and authentic, really clear.

That's what, that's what this should be.

And Democrats should be fanning out doing all kinds of this.

It's just so abundantly clear in that video that this is the truth.

And

I just think it's, it's actually really helpful.

I mean, I think they need to do more of that.

No more like clickbaity cat videos.

Like it, this is a really serious topic.

There's a way to just get at it in a succinct fashion that really underscores the gravity of the moment and the reason Democrats are taking a stand.

And I think that video does it beautifully.

Yeah, I would say I don't mind the cat video.

It's like for particularly.

I mean, I'm a cat lover too, Dan.

It got last I checked, I had like nearly 4 million views on TikTok.

Most people love cats.

They love cats.

Cat videos have always said, well, the internet's one of the, some of the first viral videos involved cats.

But like, I think that I, I'll get to the Bernie video, AFC video in a minute, but I think there's sort of three things that Democrats could do better in their messaging.

The first is stop trying to blame the Republicans for the shutdown.

Like we're, they're constantly in the, like, there's so much of our content is like the Republicans shut it down.

This is the Trump trump shutdown it's the mega shutdown no one cares who's responsible for it right we can debate who's responsible for it but that's not the point that is an argument for politico punch bowl inside the beltway media and the the sort of value of shaping that conversation is so diminished in this media environment it's just like it's not what people care about Second, there is this like tension, like related to that, there's this tension between

saying

that,

you know, this fight's so important, but you're not the one who started the fight.

Like if you care so passionately about it, be proud of the tactic you used to start the fight.

Like we care about all, we like we, the government's very important.

We don't want to hurt any of these people, but the stakes here are so high for so many people that we have to take this extraordinary step to do it.

Totally.

Like lean into it.

Like there is this sense of discomfort with the actual thing we're doing, which is like, we, we really want to fight, but we're, we don't want to tell people we want the fight to come to us.

Like pick the fight.

You pick the fight.

Be proud you pick the fight.

It's a righteous fight.

Totally.

It's a principled fight.

They have principle in their favor and they should stand up.

Yes, lean, lean into it.

So that's one.

Two, stop confusing your legislative strategy and your messaging strategy.

Your legislative strategy and the possible exit ramp here is some sort of deal in the ACA text credits.

Like that, like everyone, I'm sure every like wishy-washy member wanted to know from Schumer Jeffries, like, if we go in this, how do we get out?

And that's the most obvious answer because it's really the only thing there might possibly one day be an agreement on.

But that's your legislative strategy.

The way you achieve your legislative strategy is to win the messaging war.

And the way you win the messaging war is to make this entire thing be about a bigger conversation and about that you are the ones fighting to lower healthcare costs.

You are fighting for people.

Like that is your strategic goal.

Every moment talking about something else

is.

a missed opportunity to talk about the one thing.

Totally.

That's why the AOC Bernie video is so good because it makes it very clear.

Here's why we're doing it.

Here's why it's important.

It's a big fucking deal.

So we have to take on this big fucking risk to do it.

And like this, we're just so

tiptoeing.

And this is sort of the third thing.

And this is like a problem with Democratic messaging a lot over the last couple of years here: we're playing not to lose.

Right?

Like we, like we, we're not confident in our position.

So we're not being aggressive about it.

It's like we can win this fight, act like you win this fight, be aggressive about it.

Well, and if you've learned anything from the Trump years, play to win.

Believe you can win.

Have the posture of a winner.

Yeah, we just, we just, we really struggle.

Like there's a learned helplessness that we have gotten.

Like in fairness, it's been a rough many years, right?

Like it's just for Democrats, we've gotten beat, like the 2024 election was a scarring event.

It's just people are, people are struggling with it.

Just like, but be more aggressive about it.

It's like what Haley Barber, I think it was Haley Barber.

Keep the main thing the main thing the main thing is health care go at it with everything you got a haley barber reference for just your younger listeners he is it's not a cat over mississippi but he was a very he was the rnc chair very powerful republican keep the main thing

the main thing all right one quick thing before we jump to break the supreme court's new term is off to the racist and surprise surprise it's a mess in october the justices will decide if cops can storm your house without a warrant if states can play games with black voters districts and if free speech stops at your therapist's office door, and Crooked's legal podcast strict scrutiny is here to cut through the chaos with legal expertise and plenty of side eye.

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Another part of the messaging fight that we need to talk about is the strange AI-generated videos Trump posted of Hakeem Jeffries this week.

The videos feature Jeffries in a sombrero and mustache and are set to mariachi music, which is definitely not racist.

The videos have sparked strong reactions among Democrats.

The White House has been defiant, even playing one of the videos in a loop in the press room.

Here's Jeffries' response, followed by Vance at a White House presser on Wednesday.

Could you give us your reaction to that Trump-posted video tonight?

It's a disgusting video, and we're going to continue to make clear.

Bigotry will get you nowhere.

We are fighting to protect the health care of the American people in the face of an unprecedented Republican assault.

Oh, I think it's funny.

The president's joking, and we're having a good time.

You can negotiate in good faith while also poking a little bit of fun at some of the absurdities of the Democrats' positions, and even, you know, poking some fun at the absurdity of the Democrats themselves.

I mean, I'll tell Hakeem Jeffries right now: I make this solemn promise to you that if you help us reopen the government, the sombrero memes will stop.

If there's one person who knows funny, it's JD Vance.

It's true.

He leads with humor.

Alex, what do you make of this whole thing?

I mean, he was also asked if he thought the Vance was asked if he thought the video was racist or bigoted and said, I don't even know what that means, which is like the first true thing

JD Vance has actually said.

I mean, I gotta say,

we've come so far as a country that the president, and come so far, we've descended so far.

The president of the United States is posting and defending what is just on its face, racist garbage.

And it's not funny.

And the fact that the vice president of the United States can smile and laugh at that, I mean, I just, this is one of those things where I spent time with, you know, voters of color leading into the 2024 election.

And a lot of them that I spoke with were ready to make peace with Trump.

But you got to hope that this is the kind of shit they remember, you know?

And you don't have to be a voter of color to care about this.

In fact, you shouldn't just be a voter of color to care about this.

In fact, more white people should care about this.

But God, I hope they pay a price.

It is not okay.

And it's not funny.

And it just, it gives the, it gives, it sheds light on the central, you know, tactic and the strategy here, which is,

you know, race bait, make this about illegals, make, you know, poke fun at the Democrats of being a party that cares about brown and black people, make that a joke, make the

welfare and the wellness and the survival of the weakest and among us and those who've been, you know, just dealt the worst hands, make

their unhappiness and their pain a thing to laugh at.

I mean, it's so awful.

I got to say, I thought Hakeem Jeffries did absolutely the right thing speaking to my friend and former colleague Lawrence O'Donnell, you know, saying it's disgusting, saying it's racist, and then pivoting back to this is why we're in this fight, and just going back to keeping the main thing, the main thing.

But it is very hard to just let this pass and pivot to, you know, why Democrats are in this fight because it's just appalling.

It's appalling.

Yeah, it is absolutely appalling.

The fact that this is like, like, it's getting attention, which is why we're talking about it.

It's been a big topic on Capitol Hill.

But the fact that it is something that happened and is not the biggest story in America really shows, as you mentioned, how far we've descended

or how much Trump has moved the Overton window on what's acceptable conduct in public society.

There's always the tension with everything that rages that Trump's does is you have to pick and choose.

Like, what are you going to fight about today?

And I think Jeffreys did that right.

Like, I mean, if you listen to the full clip, Lawrence really set him up because before we, before we cut in here, there's a long thing about how discussed, like basically your point, how disgusting it is.

And so Jeffries responds to it.

And I think that's great.

Like it's about Jeffreys.

He should respond to it.

But in general,

every moment that we are talking about something other than our fight to lower healthcare for people is that's what Trump wants.

Like that's why they're doing it.

That's why they're leaning into it because they want to take us down that path.

I just think we have to be disciplined about it.

You should condemn it.

And as Jeffries did, pivot right away.

Like we need a little bit of like

dirt off our shoulders approach to these things, which is

which is like this.

Obama had to do this all the time, right?

He was constantly in a, like there is an example of a Republican member of Congress who called him boy in a meeting during a shutdown.

And he had to decide like

whether that was going to be a public issue or not.

Because like we were fighting to save the Affordable Care Act at the time.

Like there is like you just sort of have to decide and like we can decide like whether to give Trump the outrage he wants or not.

Like, and so we have to pick and choose the moments to do that.

Would you say, Dan, as a veteran of the Obama administration, that it's like uh refashioning of the when we when they go low it's not that we go high it's like when they go low

we wipe the shit off of our feet i just don't even like as we keep marching i don't even know so many mixed metaphors but because it's not necessarily trying to be above it but it's it's it's it's i mean it's it's not accepting the invitation to to descend i guess i don't i don't i just think you just i think you have to pick and choose right there's moment there are moments to do it and moments to not and like and you like you can't ignore it like he's the like hakeem jeffreys got asked the question like you can't pretend like the question didn't happen you can't do a republican i didn't see the video right

but there is like as you said stay focused the main things the main thing stay focused haley barber you see now you're quoting him yep we're back to haley two haley barber references in one podcast which is the first two haley barber references in the history of fati america that's why i'm here meanwhile on tuesday we saw more authoritarian lunacy from this administration if you recall secretary of defense because i won't call him Secretary of War, Pete Hegseth called more than 800 generals and admirals to Marine-based Quantico.

There was a ton of very scary speculation about the purpose of the meeting, where we headed to war, was their imminent attack.

But as it turned out, this was mostly a TED-style lecture where Hegseth sauntered around the stage ranting about the wokeness of the military, military codes of conduct, and the physical appearance and fitness of soldiers.

One defense official told Politico that it was the definition of, quote, could have been an email.

But Trump also decided to make an appearance where he was a bit more, let's say, fascistic about what he expected from the U.S.

military.

Here's Hag Seth followed by Trump.

No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses.

We are done with that shit.

To our enemies,

F-A-F-O.

I've never walked into a room so silent before.

This is very

don't laugh, don't laugh.

You're not allowed to do that.

You want to applaud, you applaud.

And if you want to do anything you want, you can do anything you want.

And if you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room.

Of course, there goes your rank, there goes your future.

Last month I signed an executive order to provide training for a quick reaction force that can help quell civil disturbances.

This is going to be a big thing for the people in this room because it's the enemy from within.

And I told Pete, we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military, National Guard, but military.

military trump said it was gonna be a nice meeting that sound very nice to you no

i mean it sort of like toggled between

orwellian mccarthyism and like metro sexual grooming conference like

like

it was just like at one point

the secretary of defense said fat generals are a bad look.

And I was like, what?

At the same time, the president of the United States is like, and we're also waging war on half the country.

Like, just like, what the fuck was that?

I found the whole thing incredibly disturbing, Dan.

Yeah, it's just,

let's just start with the Pete Hexeth part here, which is almost in the history of the United States government, no person has been less qualified for the job they have.

than Pete Hexeth.

He's the weekend anchor of Fox News.

I'm a former weekend anchor, so like, let's not malign the entire category, but I like to do that.

Well, Alex, I have to say, I have a lot of respect, and there are a lot of places in the cabinet where I can see you working

for the next administration as Secretary of War.

Yes, I feel like if you're a Secretary of Defense, let's say you were.

Let's say that as a former cable weekend anchor.

No, no, network.

It was network.

Let's just be clear.

It was nice.

Oh, you were a network.

Oh, come on.

You could be vice president.

Yeah.

Put you in the line of succession.

But like the idea that you would act like this in front of the most senior members of the military, like, it just requires such a lack of self-awareness that it's stunning.

Like, you're going to lecture these people, these people who've risen to the top of their profession, serving their country in a time of war

on

shaving and running laps.

Like, it's just

wild to have the audacity to tell a room full of generals in military dress, fat generals are a bad look.

Who the fuck does Pete Hegsa think he is?

Yes, exactly.

It's wild.

It's truly wild.

While most of Trump's speech was his normal rambling word vomit, we do have to talk about his line about using U.S.

cities as training grounds for troops.

And who exactly do you think he meant when he said the enemy within?

What's your reaction?

You and me, for sure.

I mean, this is not okay.

This is the language.

This is the stuff that really needs to disturb everyone.

I mean, this is, this is like, I mean, they're not even, like, they're, they're not even even keeping a secret their completely unconstitutional

strategy here to, to, to, to launch a kind of like semi-civil war against blue cities and states, universities that are seen as bastions of liberalism.

I mean, it's, um, it's, it's, it's, it's war against our own people.

And announced by the president of the United States at Quantico in front of a room of, what is it, 800 top military brass.

This is a very alarming set of statements that he made.

And it like, there was a high degree of concern and outrage when President Trump talked about vermin and adopted the rhetoric of, you know,

some of the worst autocrats and dictators of the 20th century.

To be using this language again and to be targeting Americans.

in a military setting as Trump is ordering federal troops to cities, you know, across the country.

Like,

we're in this, you know, we find ourselves constantly in this state of

panic about so many things that Trump does.

But this seems to be actually

his raison d'être.

Like, I think there's just such a desire to punish and own

those who disagree with him in the most acute and perverted fashion.

And he's here announcing that and doubling down on it.

And

yeah, it's, it's, I mean, it, it, I don't, I don't know what the right expression was, but it's like the full, the culmination of something conservatives have been obsessed with, I think, since they first sort of felt the rising tide of liberalism in the 1960s and 40s, actually.

In many cases, Trump's bark is worse than his bite.

Like, as we saw in DC, a lot of these National Guard people he sends there end up picking up trash on the mall or sitting around doing nothing, right?

It's the people who, like the National Guard troops themselves, are pulled away from home to do nothing.

It's not like it's, they're just making a political statement.

But the fact that he has no problem, like he doesn't even, he's too dumb or ahistorical or has too much dictator envy to see the danger.

Like you just have to not understand what this country is about to think that it is okay to talk about in this way, right?

Like that's the exact opposite of what America is supposed to exist for.

And it's like it, it just, this is, it's a very disturbing window into his mentality that's like the danger of which is exponentially magnified by the fact that this entire party is going to be fine with it, right?

Is that

there is no bulwark to that.

I mean, we're really counting on those people in the room who would not applaud to be the ones who will stop this from going too far.

That's a scary place to be.

We're in a scary place.

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Okay, speaking of scary places, let's pivot from the military to higher education as one does.

This week, the White House rolled out what they're calling the Compact for Academic Excellence, a 10-point set of demands that would require universities to cap international enrollment at 15%,

ban the use of race or gender in admissions or hiring, and reform or eliminate, quote, institutional units that purposely punish, belittle, or even spark violence against conservative ideas.

Universities that signed onto this agreement would get preferential access to federal funding.

Those that do not, well, pretty sure you can figure that out.

So far, the White House has only invited nine schools they believe would be good actors to sign on.

Those schools include Penn, USC, MIT, and what I believe to be your alma mater, Brown University.

Alex, what do you make of the shortlist?

And why is Brown on this list?

I could insert some dumb inside Brown jokes, but I'm going to save you from that, Dan.

You are correct.

I'm sure we have many Brown listeners.

I mean, I've always thought that Brown is a very liberal place.

Yeah.

Was I wrong about that?

No, you're not.

It is a liberal place.

Are they too liberal for grades?

You know what?

That is a canard.

Okay.

Like, I got grades.

You can take things past fail, but I

knew I did choose to get grades and they were okay, kind of mediocre.

This is why you'll be Secretary of Defense.

This is why.

Also, I have like a lot of thoughts on grooming.

Yes.

Well, perfect.

Look at these are

places that have signaled that they will play ball.

You know, they're bastions of liberalism that Trump has targeted in other respects, and they have signaled that they will play ball.

And, you know, the thing about, you know, making concessions to Trump, if people haven't fucking figured this out yet, is you give him an inch and a half for a mile.

Like nobody's ever done.

You're not done till it's over.

And he tells you when it's over.

So it, yeah, of course, this is the short list.

But I mean, damn, this is like, it's also embarrassing for higher education, right?

It's so dark.

It's so bad.

Autocrats love targeting universities because that's where people get educated and are opened to discussion and debate.

I remember in Burma, I keep bringing it up, but one of the first things the military did after student-led protests in 88 was crack down on universities.

And to this day, they have really curbed tons of

institutions of higher learning.

They've shuttered universities before.

Nobody likes places where people learn and discuss and debate and are exposed to new concepts and ideas and people because that's a losing hand for autocracy and dictatorship.

So it's not surprising that our

small-handed autocrat here in the United States wants to tackle higher ed here.

And he is assisted by conservatives who have been, you know, obsessed with this for decades, right?

Like, I mean,

people forget.

I've been writing a book for the last, however, I mean, such a dumb idea.

It's coming out next year.

We don't have a name for it.

But one of the things that I've been going back at is the origins of the Federalist Society.

The Federalist Society started as an alt

college group.

by a bunch of conservatives who were like, there's no place for us.

It's an alt campus group that's effectively started by by conservatives who were like, the liberal campuses suck.

We have nobody like ourselves.

They're no like-minded individuals.

What can we do to reclaim a little bit of territory for ourselves?

And look what their federalist society is now, right?

Like there has been a focus and an obsession with the liberalism that is pervasive on university campuses and trying to rein it in at all costs.

And this is like

just the most exponentially extreme example of that agenda coming to fruition.

Yeah, it's deeply dangerous.

It is the,

it's essentially extortion.

Yeah.

It's if you do these things, if you become more conservative, if you adopt our political principles and our policies, we will give you federal money, the federal money you need to fund your research projects, your,

you know, everything else, like we will do that for you.

And if you don't do it, then you will suffer competitively compared to other universities.

And this is, as you point out, this is the lesson of if you give in once, you're going to give in again and again and again.

And because these universities can't stick together, some of them will immediately accept this.

And because they think that'll give them an advantage over everyone else, then we'll force other people to do it.

And you'll end in a very bad place.

Like this is, it's just,

if universities cannot fight for the First Amendment, who is going to do that?

Totally.

Right.

It's just like the media companies giving in, right?

It's or the law firms.

Or the law firms, right?

If law firms won't sue to protect their First Amendment rights, if universities universities won't fight for academic freedom and freedom of speech, if media companies won't fight for freedom of the press,

who is going to be a bad person.

That's the ball game, dude.

That's the ball game.

And it's all because of money.

Like, let's just remember that principle is more valuable than money.

And the universities have endowments.

And this is like, this is the fight.

This is the existential fight for academic freedom.

Don't mistake it for anything but that Brown University.

You get a fail on this one.

Perfect.

Okay.

There's been a lot of bad news this week and in this podcast, but it hasn't been all bad news.

We've been quoting Haley Barber.

Yes, that's where we are.

We've been quoting Haley Barber.

So I thought we'd take a moment to talk about some good news.

So first, the Supreme Court announced that it's allowing Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook to remain in her post while they consider Trump's case to fire her.

The White House withdrew its nomination of E.J.

Antoni, the controversial and unqualified hack they chose to lead the Bureau of Labor Statistics after Republicans Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski refused to even meet with him.

On Tuesday, a Reagan-appointed federal district judge issued a damning ruling of the Trump administration's effort to crack down on free speech.

The ruling concluded that foreign students have the same First Amendment protections as U.S.

citizens.

The judge also responded to a threatening note he'd received, which went, quote, Trump has pardons and tanks.

What do you have?

Young's response, dear Mr.

or Miss Anonymous, alone I have nothing but my sense of duty.

Together, we the people of the United States, you and me, have our magnificent Constitution.

And in a final 13-page section, the judge took Trump to task by breaking down the misdeeds of his second term.

Young ended by writing, and I think this is very powerful.

I fear President Trump believes the American people are so divided that today they will not stand up, fight for, and defend our most precious constitutional values so long as they are lulled into thinking their own personal interests are not affected.

Is he correct?

The White House, of course, called the ruling outrageous.

Seems pretty spot on to me.

What did you think?

Yeah.

You know, I think this is the sort of question we're all asking ourselves, those of us who are still asking.

It's like, where is everyone

you know and i think that there's a real um profound fear

i'm not going to say sinking suspicion but i mean where where is everybody you know you just rattled off a group of institutions that should be fighting this for their own self-interest right but have decided that the money is just too easy to come by.

I don't know.

I mean, I think that the lower courts, like, hats off to them.

These are the guys that are, you know, to actually, we should say, like, for these federal district judges to do what they're doing and to be very clear and pointed in their criticism of this administration is not an easy thing to do because they know what's coming at them.

These judges are under threat.

They are putting their own lives, the lives of their family at risk.

And they're doing so on principle.

And that's really heartening, right?

Like that part of the court system is really heartening.

But you do feel like it needs to be undergirded by people and other institutions that have their back.

And I really do worry about him.

I mean, I don't like that it ends with the question, is he correct?

That scares me because it's something I think we're all asking ourselves right now.

But I think it's a remarkable and a courageous document.

And, you know, I really hope this, you know, with, as with all these things, we don't just end up back in, you know, John Roberts' lap where, you know, instead of a little white cat, it's just like whatever animal enables the Trump administration.

That's such a weird visual I just painted.

I'm sorry.

It's okay.

It's okay.

It's been a weird week.

You know, I think as we look at this, it's easy to ask the question like, where is everyone?

The people have responded, right?

Like the people within the United States have responded.

The No Kings Day protest is one of the largest protests in American history.

People are showing up for things.

They are protesting.

They are actually there.

The failure here is from elites.

It's from the law firms.

It's from the CEOs.

It's from Wall Street.

It's from some Democratic leaders before this fight.

And those are the people who are not standing up.

The grassroots of the Democratic Party, the pro-democracy movement in this country are responding, right?

They are pushing back.

They are like living their values in.

getting like in volunteering, organizing, donating, protesting, campaigns.

The question is, are the elites going to do it?

And thus far, this is like Trump's authoritarian power grab has been enabled entirely by cowardly, greedy elites.

Like that, that is exactly what's happening.

And I want to hear more Democrats make that argument.

Yeah, the shame, the shame argument, it's powerful.

I mean, it's shocking as a member of the media, as someone who went to Brown, you know, like

with friends in law firms.

Like, where are you guys?

How can you not see this for what it is?

This is your future.

Another bit of good news, the Pope is still woke.

Yeah, baby.

On Tuesday, Pope Leo offered reporters a glimpse into his political views.

The Chicago-born pontiff was asked about an apparently controversial plan for a Catholic institution to give Illinois Senator Dick Durbin an award for his support of migrants, despite Durbin's support for abortion rights.

Here's how Pope Leo responded.

Someone who says I'm against abortion but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro-life.

So someone who says that I'm against abortion, but I'm in agreement with the inhuman treatment of immigrants who are in the United States.

I don't know if that's pro-life.

Is Pope Leo our best chance in 2028?

Yeah, he is.

I mean, I think that this is the ace in the hole.

Oh, you, you, you, G-O-P, you want to get rid of the division between church and state?

Well, how about Pope for president, snitches?

Let's go.

He's like an amazing pope.

I mean, Chicago, run it back.

Why not?

I think

the minute Leo was,

the smoke came out, it was black smoke, right?

Black smoke when they chose the Pope.

I think it's white smoke.

White smoke.

Right.

It's black smoke when they haven't chosen.

Sorry.

I'm a bad, lapsed Catholic, quite obviously.

This is the kind of stuff we need more of.

We talk about institutions, religious institutions are just as important in this fight as media institutions and legal institutions and the court system, like all hands on deck.

And this Pope is clearly a deeply ethical person.

He has an incredible pulpit, quite literally, to speak from.

And I think it's really important.

It reframes issues that should matter to all Americans outside of partisan lens.

And I think that's essential, especially the conversation around immigration.

I wish Democrats had as much gumption and empathy as this Pope to talk about immigrants in a humane and

loving way, right?

So hats off.

Can you say hats off to the Pope?

Miters off to the Pope?

Either way.

Oprah Pope.

Copra.

Could have Popra 28.

Popra 28.

Could we do it?

Can you spin that?

Can you make that happen?

Popra?

I think

that does need to be spun.

That seems like you nailed it.

Pope and Oprah.

Can't lose.

All right.

That seems like a great place to end it.

That's our show for today.

Alex will be back with a new show on Sunday, her first Sunday interview episode.

Alex, who are you talking to?

I am talking to the wise,

provocative, profound writer, author, feminist Roxanne Gay, who has some really,

I would say, controversial but compelling ideas about whether or not civility has a place in American politics right now.

So we're going to be getting into that as well as a host of other things.

I'm super excited.

I didn't realize I had to work on Sundays here, but.

They say there's some free RX bars coming my way.

So

I guess you get extra snacks if you work on Sundays.

Well, I'm looking forward to that episode.

Thanks.

Alex, thanks for filling in for John.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

And Alex will be back on your feet on Sunday.

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