Trump and Zelensky's Disastrous Meeting

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Hey guys, Tommy Vitor.

I'm recording a little voice note here on my phone to introduce an episode Ben and I recorded Friday, just after the Zelensky-Trump meeting.

This was a quick reaction episode.

This was not our normal, you know, Tuesday pod.

This was just us sort of reacting in real time to what we had just seen.

We put it out initially as a YouTube exclusive, but we thought, given the stakes of what happened and how poorly the meeting went, that it was important to release on RSS2 as a podcast.

So here's the episode, and thanks for listening to Pod Save the World.

Welcome back to Pod Save the World.

I'm Tommy Vitor.

I'm Ben Rhodes.

We are doing a little YouTube exclusive episode today based off of President Zelensky's meeting with Donald Trump just now.

We were going to plan to do this regardless, but Ben, I didn't expect it to be the worst, the worst meeting ever in the Oval Office.

I'm trying to think of an example of a meeting that went worse.

I mean, there was the infamous BB Net and Yahoo Obama meeting that you and I were both in the room for, but it was nothing even close to what was.

Not even close, yeah.

I this is unlike anything that has taken place in my entire lifetime.

And, you know,

I'd have to mine my brain.

I mean, I assume there were some tough meetings, you know, in the Civil War.

But yeah, never, never, we've never seen anything like it.

Never seen anything like it.

Okay.

Well, we'll cut to the chase and start to play you some of that.

We have a very long clip, and we're going to play some excerpts, pause and talk about them, and then play some more because honestly, it was just impossible to cut it down.

It was that much of a fucking train wreck.

So with that, here is a clip from Zelensky and Trump's meeting in the Oval Office today, Friday, February 28th.

He broke this ceasefire.

He killed our people, and he didn't exchange prisoners.

We signed the exchange of prisoners, but he didn't do it.

What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about?

What do you mean?

I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country.

Mr.

President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media.

Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems.

You should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict.

I've never been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have.

I have been to

I've actually watched and seen the stories, and I know that what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr.

President.

Okay, stop.

Yeah, okay, stop.

This is the worst OKStop episode in history.

So what you can hear there is Zelensky does his wind-up where he's talking about how we can't trust Putin to implement a ceasefire because he breaks every agreement he's ever signed.

And actually, I was just watching Mike Pompeo on Fox News talking about how the United States pulled out of all these arms control agreements during the first Trump administration because Trump, because Putin was breaking the terms of the deal.

But, you know,

it was hard to tell exactly what kind of sets the meeting off here, Ben.

But I do think J.D.

Vance is kind of the chief arsonist because Zelensky pretty quickly calls him out and is like, okay, you seem to know a lot about my country.

Have you ever been there?

And

obviously jd vance has not uh and he flips out about it and just i guess says that any visit to ukraine is a propaganda tour now yeah two things stand out to me about this first just so people know what uh zelensky is talking about he's talking about the minsk agreement that was reached in the late obama administration to essentially freeze the conflict and have some kind of process whereby the ukrainians had autonomous regions in these places where the Russians had invaded in eastern Ukraine.

And what he's saying is

Putin broke the ceasefire.

The last time someone tried to do what Trump's doing, you know, Putin is the one that violated the agreement and re-invaded the country and dramatically escalated.

And that's just a fact.

It's not an opinion.

You know, so this is going to be a reoccurring theme here: that Zelensky's saying facts, and J.D.

Vance and Trump are just basically offering Kremlin talking points in response.

And then, Tommy, I said this to you, but for J.D.

Vance to refer to visits that people make to ukraine as propaganda tours was one of the most triggering things and many that were said today because what people do when they go to ukraine is they they often visit butha for instance where there were war crimes committed where innocent civilians were massacred where children were killed and to call that a propaganda tour is so beyond the pale it's essentially

him calling the truth propaganda.

When people go to Ukraine, what they see is the reality of a country that's been invaded and bombarded and had tens of thousands of children kidnapped and tens of thousands of people killed.

And JD Vance calls that the propaganda.

And it's it's up is down.

It's you know black is white.

It's just 180 degrees wrong.

And I agree with you, Tommy.

It felt like JD Vance was setting a trap.

Like he was getting, trying to provoke Zelensky to say something that would piss off Trump,

which is a pretty fucking dark role for him to be playing.

But just to be clear, this meeting was ostensibly about signing some some sort of deal between the U.S.

and the Ukrainians about rare earth minerals.

In reality, it seems like it was a setup to get to exactly this moment so J.D.

Vance and Donald Trump could harangue Zelensky in front of the cameras and show what a tough guy they are and, you know,

beat their chest on Fox News later.

But, Ben, I'm glad you mentioned

Bucha because, you know, that's another triggering thing for me because you often hear these same conservatives, well, actually Democrats too, talk about how there were some early peace talks between the Ukrainians and the Russians, but they blew up and they often blame Zelensky for pulling out of those talks.

In fact, those talks blew up because the atrocities that occurred at Bucha were revealed and it became impossible for anyone in Ukraine to imagine cutting a deal with Putin and the Russians in that moment.

Yeah,

and this context was entirely missing.

They seemed to be offended by Zelensky pointing out that his country was invaded by Putin.

That seemed to offend Trump and J.D.

Vance.

And I think another piece of context here, Tommy, is Zelensky is a profoundly exhausted person.

And you can see it on his face.

You can see it on his face.

I've heard this from some Europeans.

Like he,

you know,

this guy probably barely sleeps at night.

He has been besieged by the Trump administration, bullied into trying to sign this absurd deal for critical minerals.

And he flies to Washington because he feels this thing slipping away from him, this thing being U.S.

support, as kind of a Hail Mary.

And then he sits down and they bring the cameras in and he just starts getting insulted to his face by people who can demonstrate no degree of empathy.

I mean, like, they don't even, not even a perfunctory, you know, tribute to what the people of Ukraine have done.

And they insulted not just Zelensky, this is important.

They insulted the Ukrainian people.

He said the only people you can get to fight are conscripts that you force to the front line.

So that's insulting the troops.

That's insulting the Ukrainians that have been fighting and saying they don't want to be there.

They're only there because Zelensky made them go there.

When, in fact, Putin is the one that conscripts people.

Putin is the one that did a mobilization.

And so

we can talk later about whether Zelensky erred tactically here, but

I have a great deal of empathy for what he had to go through.

Yeah, I mean, look,

Trump being offended by reality and people insulting Zelensky is going to be a theme of this thing.

The press corps even gets in on the action, but we'll get to that in a minute.

But let's keep rolling that clip.

Do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people into your military?

I have problems.

And do you think that it's respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?

A lot of questions.

Let's start from the beginning.

Sure.

First of all, during the war, everybody has problems.

Even you.

But you have a nice ocean and don't feel now.

But you will feel it in the future.

God god bless you don't know that bless you're not blessed you're not having

work don't tell us what we're going to feel we're trying to solve a problem don't tell us what we're going to feel

because you're in no position to dictate that remember this

you're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel

we're going to feel very good

we're going to feel very good and very strong

you're right now not in a very good position you've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position and he happens to be right about

the cards.

You don't have the cards right now.

With us, you start having cards.

You're playing cards.

Right now, you don't have

to president.

You're playing cards.

You're gambling with the lives of millions of people.

You're gambling with World War III.

You're gambling with World War III.

And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country,

that's back to you

far more than a lot of people said they should have.

Have you said thank you once this entire meeting?

No, in this entire meeting, have you said thank you?

You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October.

Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president.

J.D.

Vance just gave up the whole game there.

They are offended by

a campaign period visit by Zelensky.

to Pennsylvania,

which was perceived as an endorsement or support for Joe Biden.

Geez, Ben, I wonder why Zelensky might have thought he'd be better off if Joe Biden was president or Kamala Harris was president and not

Donald Trump as he's lecturing him in the Oval Office about how he's gambling and about to start World War III.

Yeah, there's a lot in that one too, Tommy.

I mean, first of all,

boy, to say that Zelensky's the one that's gambling with World War III when Putin is the one that invaded the country.

I mean, the Ukrainians didn't want, they don't want to be in this war.

And Trump is pulling out support for NATO, which has prevented World War III.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, what's so fucking bonkers about this is, like, the, the,

all the things that Trump and Vance say presuppose that Zelensky somehow wants this war and wanted this war when he was just invaded by Russia.

They're the ones that raised the risks of World War III.

Then to hear them lecture him about needing to thank Mr.

Trump, you know,

first of all, Zelensky always thanks the United States repeatedly.

He's done it, by the way, since Trump has been president, express gratitude for the support the United States supplies.

Even though, by the way, Donald Trump is not the one that provided that support.

It was Joe Biden and the United States Congress on a bipartisan basis.

But they want Zelensky to behave like, you know, a Trump staffer.

Thank you, Mr.

Trump, for being such a great president.

And they don't do this.

to other leaders.

You know, they don't hector other leaders like this in the Oval Office.

They, you know, they, they, they, they, they're picking on him.

They're like schoolyard bullies picking on a small injured person to impress their friends.

And it's like three-on-one.

You can hear all of them chiding him, being like, yes, you were mean.

Yes, you did say that.

It literally sounds like a schoolyard taunting.

And he didn't insult.

Wouldn't he insult?

Do you know what they're referring to?

He shouldn't insult the U.S.

He just explained facts.

Facts are insulting to

Trump is mad.

It's earlier on in this Oval Office meeting because this was a very, very long pool spray.

And just to give folks a little context, what usually happens is the two leaders go into the Oval Office, they sit down, you bring the pool, the White House press pool, in for for like a minute or two.

Sometimes there's a shout-out question, they take photos, and then they get them the hell out of there.

They have the real meeting.

There was supposed to be a lunch, and then there's supposed to be a press conference.

Trump has started doing this thing where he takes like 45 minutes worth of questions during the pool spray, and then they do the press conference just because he needs to be on TV all the time.

So, what you didn't hear that happened earlier was, you know, Trump's entire shtick about Ukraine is the war never would have happened if he was president.

But Zelensky, when he was walking through all the times the Russians broke ceasefire agreements, talks about about how the Russians were occupying Ukraine throughout the duration of the Trump presidency and people were getting killed during the Trump presidency.

And Trump really didn't like that because it undercut his whole fucking argument that none of this would have happened if I were in charge because he acts like he wasn't actually the president for four years and isn't responsible for anything.

Yeah, and he needs everything to be about himself and not about like the reality of what is happening in the world, particularly a reality that is counter to his narrative and inconvenient to him in any way, shape, or form.

And Zelensky's this guy who's only trying to share facts, you know,

and each time he does,

they act as if he has personally offended them and come down even harder on the guy.

And by this point in the clip, they're just picking on him.

And to say that because

You know, he's not kissing Trump's ass, he's insulting the whole country just shows you what Donald Trump's view of this country is.

That he is the only thing that matters.

He, the leader, you know, he, Der Fuhrer, is the only guy, he's the symbol of the nation or something.

It's absolutely grotesque.

And what we can't see here is like little Marco Rubio on the couch, like shrinking deeper and deeper into his seat.

JD Vance is like sitting on the edge of his seat.

He's the happiest little boy in town because he was allowed to go to the big boy meeting and say something.

And Marco Rubio, every photo of Marco Rubio that I've seen in the context of these Russia-Ukraine talks, he looks like his soul is drifting out of his body in that moment.

He looks like he is dead inside.

He knows what is happening is so profoundly wrong, but he just sits there fucking silently and then afterwards tweets an atta boy at the boss.

And look, there's all these reports that Rubio is like the Secretary of State in name only and actually has a bunch of little kind of MAGA supplicants who work for him on the org chart, but are actually running the show over at state.

So who knows?

Yeah.

Well, let's listen to the rest of this clip.

Who's trying to save your country?

It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this.

I can tell you.

To say thank you,

accept that there are disagreements, and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong.

We know that you're wrong.

But you see, I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on.

I think it's very important.

That's why I kept this going so long.

Trump

ends the meeting later and says, this is going to be great television.

So again, giving up the game.

This is all about politics for them.

They don't care about Ukraine.

They don't actually care about anything Zelensky said.

This is just domestic politics.

Yeah.

And they're just, you know, like, what is he wrong about?

You know, like, like, nothing that Zelensky said, we can, again, we'll talk later about like what his tactical decision-making was, but, like, nothing he said was wrong.

And J.D.

Vance doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

He's not some expert on like Ukraine and Russia.

He's just some guy who listened to some podcasts and tries to put it in the middle of the middle.

Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with that.

Sorry about that.

All of you people could

understand.

This is YouTube.

Yeah, that's right.

Exactly.

This is YouTube.

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It's worth noting, like, the meeting didn't start terribly.

Again, like we said, there was like a 30-minute pool spray.

There was actually some like kind of chummy moments.

Let's just play a quick clip of that.

Because Europe really helped.

President Trump said that they made

less support, but they have our friends and they are our very supportive partners.

They really gave a lot, Mr.

Spread.

Really?

They did.

I gave a lot, but they gave much less.

No,

much less.

No.

At least, no.

No.

Okay.

Okay.

So, right there, you know, Zelensky is talking about contributions from the Europeans to Ukraine.

This is like the third time in a week that Trump has been corrected in the Oval Office about the European contribution to the Ukrainian side.

Remember, in the meeting with French President Amen Macron, Macron like grabs his arm and is like, actually, no, 60% of what we gave them was a grant, not alone.

Keir Starmer made the same point yesterday, I believe, Thursday.

And then Zelensky today.

But, you know, it was kind of like, look, Zelensky had a look on his face where, as you said, Ben, he looked exhausted.

By the end of this conversation, he looks like he wants to cry.

But it didn't start terribly.

Like, things just escalated and got worse or worse.

Yeah, but it felt like

that J.D.

Vance and Trump wanted some version of this outcome.

Maybe they didn't want to go exactly like this, but they wanted to smack him around and

say he was ungrateful and tell him to thank Mr.

Trump.

And again, what I find so

appalling about it, but it's interesting, we have to understand this, is that, you know, Trump's, you know, the headline in foreign policy is he's completely switched sides.

And it's now the U.S.

and Russia against Europe and Ukraine, the U.S.

wanting to be in this alignment with big autocratic countries, Russia, China, the Gulf, et cetera.

But it also mirrors Tommy like what Trump does at home.

Like, he doesn't really pick on people his own size.

You know,

it's undocumented people, it's trans people.

You know, it's a country that's been invaded like Ukraine.

It's people in Gaza that he's dunking on and posting, you know, weird videos about,

you know, the Riviera that he's going to build.

Like, this guy is not tough.

Tough people

would pick on Putin.

Tough people would

not be terrified of Putin and beating the shit out of Zelensky on television and then telling him it's his fault.

And guess who sees that?

The world sees that.

Like, MAGA base will, you know, be like, oh, this is great.

Look at Trump.

Own the Libs because they think Zelensky.

I mean, your point about Pennsylvania, it's not just that

you gave up the game on that, but they also equate

Ukraine with kind of libs or something,

which is super weird, by the way, because it used to be the opposite.

Yeah, then Obama was weak because he didn't give enough support to Ukraine.

That was the talking point for everyone.

Now Obama looks

a much different light compared to Trump.

But I mean,

the rest of the world doesn't live in the MAGAverse.

The rest of the world lives in reality, and they're just seeing like a bully picking on someone smaller to make himself look tough.

Yeah.

So again, this was supposed to be the pool spray before the lunch meeting, before the press conference.

The Trump people ended up canceling the rest of the itinerary.

And, you know, according to the readouts they're giving to Fox News or whoever else, it sounds like

Rubio and Mike Waltz basically kicked Zelensky out of the White House and said, come back when you're ready to cut a peace deal.

They were supposed to sign some sort of rare earths agreement.

The text of this agreement has evolved so much over time.

Initially, it was reported as just like an extortion, the U.S.

demanding half of Ukraine's rare earths or up to to $500 billion worth of rare earths.

Now it seemed like there would just be some sort of joint effort to mine these rare earths and put it into a fund that would then be used for Ukrainian reconstruction, but the U.S.

would have some sort of oversight over it and maybe get some of the profits.

I don't know.

I'm not sure that we'll ever know.

Caitlin Collins from CNN asked a very smart question during this press conference, which is that something like 40% of Ukraine's rare earths are in the Far East, so in Russian-occupied areas.

She was like,

Are you going to be able to get access to those?

Who will protect those?

There's been a lot of reporting today about how the sort of mining process for these rare earth elements is unbelievably energy and labor-intensive and incredibly dirty.

And setting up a giant lithium mine, for example, can take a decade.

So, the idea that this is some sort of immediate U.S.-Ukrainian cooperation on the ground that serves as a de facto deterrent from the Russians invading is just like sort of nonsensical on its face if you actually understand the details.

But Ben, I don't know that we'll ever need to know the details of this one because it doesn't seem like it's happening.

Yeah.

I mean, the whole purpose of this was to, again, further make Trump look tough.

Like he got Ukraine to bend to his will and give us access to these rare earth materials that, as you said, take, you know, these would not be mined in Trump's presidency.

And if and when they are.

So what?

What is it?

What on earth does this have to do with ending the war?

It has nothing to do with ending the war.

It's not a security guarantee to Ukraine to say that there might be some joint ventures down the line to get some rare earth materials that Trump probably doesn't even know what they do.

So this always felt like this kind of weird facade.

And I do just, to put a point on it, like Waltz and Rubio.

For them to be going along with this charade, like fucking, you know, Ribbentrop, the Nazi foreign minister, like

these guys were talking tough about Ukraine like a year ago.

They were, you know,

this is what happens when you sell your soul to Donald Trump, you know.

And if there's one thing that Zelensky's visit achieved, is

it

exposed the full truth of what he's dealing with.

Yeah.

I mean, look, there is sort of there is a there is a national security challenge for the U.S.,

which is that I think China has something like 70% of the rare earth elements supply.

They also have something like 90% of the refining capacity.

So there could be a scenario where the U.S.

really needs access to these rare earth minerals.

But, like you just said, I mean, this is like a decade-long process.

And Ben, I remember having a very similar conversation about, you know, people saying there were massive deposits, like trillion-dollar deposits in Afghanistan, that none of those have been mined, even as of today.

So all of this just seems like very vaporware made up.

It's a huge issue.

But ironically, Tommy, I know a lot about this issue from the prism of climate change because these are critical to battery technologies, to solar panels, and the Chinese are waiting.

too low turbines.

And the reality is, if you really cared about it, you wouldn't dismantle USAID because you'd be trying to be in Africa where there's a ton of these critical minerals, or places in South America, there are a ton of critical minerals

in places that are not currently invaded by Russia.

Like, you know, making agreements with Chile, which has a lot of these deposits, would be a lot more rational than saying we're going to solve our rare earth materials by getting mining rights in Ukraine, you know, that has currently been intact.

It's purely for show, for Trump.

Yep, purely for show.

Okay, well, like we mentioned earlier, Zelensky wasn't just insulted by J.D.

Vance and Rubio and Waltz and Trump.

There were a bunch of moron reporters in the Oval Office because, as you might have heard, the White House is taking over control of the White House press pool.

And instead of having like real serious journalists in there from places like Reuters or Bloomberg, they're swapping in right-wing zealots who are just their little propagandists.

So let's hear an example of what kind of questions those people ask.

Why don't you wear a suit?

Why don't you wear a suit?

You're at the highest level in this country's office and you refuse to wear a suit.

Just want to see if you do you own a suit?

You have problems.

A lot of Americans have problems with you not respecting.

I don't have such.

I will wear a costume after this war will finish.

Yes.

Maybe

something like that.

Maybe something like yours, yes.

Maybe something better.

I don't know.

We will see.

Maybe something cheaper.

Thank you.

Thank you.

That was a reporter named Brian Glenn.

He's the chief White House correspondent for Real America's Voice.

There was a reporter from One America, which is another right-wing outlet, Ben, that asked, what gave you the moral courage and conviction to lead on a peace agreement?

Apparently, a reporter from TASS snuck into the Oval Oval Office pool spray.

For those who don't know, TOSS is a Russian state-owned news agency founded in the 1900s.

So interesting move to let the Russian state-owned media, you know, the country bombing the country you're meeting with into the Oval Office Spray.

Apparently, the White House staff said he snuck in there somehow.

It doesn't give me a lot of

confidence in their security.

I'm not sure how you sneak into the Oval Office, but I don't know, man.

Like,

this is bleak shit.

Well, you know, first of all, the Real American News guy was probably slobbering over Elon Musk in the cabinet meeting yesterday when he was not wearing a suit, was wearing a t-shirt, was wearing a hat, and was like amped up on God knows what, standing up, jumping up and down, being a fucking lunatic, right?

So why is Elon Musk allowed to like, you know,

in this guy's view, denigrate the White House, the Oval Office by not wearing a suit?

I mean, like, can you imagine?

Can you imagine

being Ukrainian and looking at this?

I mean, Zelensky dresses like that in solidarity with people in his country.

You know, he wears military-color clothes to express solidarity with troops who are fighting the front line.

You don't have to think that's a great, you know, sarterial choice,

but to fucking just pick on him,

what danger has that guy ever been under?

Zelensky could have been assassinated in the early days of the war.

Like, there was incredible reports.

There are all kinds of bounties on his head.

And this kind of complete fucking loser from Real America News is picking on him to make himself look good in front of Mr.

Trump and whoever his audience is.

And then the TOSS thing,

let's just be very clear here: like Russian state media, which I think was like sanctioned or designated.

I know trying to remember that.

They were definitely like a part of some, you know, one of the things the Biden administration rolled out.

But Russian state media is allowed in the Oval Office and the Associated Press, the wire service for more American newspapers than anybody else is not, because they won't call it the Gulf of America.

Like, this is where we are, people.

Like, we are in a reality in which Russian state media and Russian propaganda is in the Oval Office berating a democratically elected leader of a country under attack, you know, who's being insulted for not wearing a suit.

I mean,

we just have to get our minds around this thing because we're only six weeks into it, you know?

Yeah, I know, like, American politics are so unserious.

It's so frustrating, but this moment really drove home for me.

I just, I can't imagine, you know, this is an existential meeting for the people of Ukraine and for Zelensky,

literally.

And, you know, suddenly he's getting berated about his appearance.

I mean, it's just like truly outrageous.

So, Ben, I mean, the big picture question is like, where do we go from here?

Because this meeting was a disaster.

I mean, I'm sure Zelensky will try to kind of mop it up.

He's doing a TV appearance with Brett Baer on Fox News later tonight that I think he knows will be a sort of a direct line back back into the Oval Office to communicate with Trump.

It's been interesting to watch this week.

You had Macron, Kier Starmer, and Zelensky all have White House meetings and then all go on Brett Baer's show.

It's become kind of the car wash equivalent.

Like when you go to ESBN, you do like a bunch of shows now.

Brett Baer is the car wash.

But yesterday, Putin was speaking.

He was praising the new U.S.

administration for, quote, pragmatism, a realistic worldview, discarding many of stereotypes, so-called rules, and messianic ideological cliches of their predecessors.

You had Dmitry Medvedev cheering and tweeting in English about how great it was to see Delensky treated like shit.

And then yesterday, when Trump was meeting with Kir Starmer, the British prime minister, Trump refused to say that the U.S.

would backstop a European peacekeeping force if one were to be put in Ukraine after some sort of peace deal.

He also seemed to once again suggest the U.S.

wasn't fully committed to Article 5 when he was asked about it.

He was like, oh, the Brits, they don't need much help.

They can take care of themselves.

And then at one point, he said to Kier Starmer, could you take on Russia by yourselves?

You know, like kind of joking, but not really.

So, I don't know, pretty dark, man.

Like, where do you think we go from here?

Again, I think if there's any utility in this, you know, because you might say Zelensky should have just shut his mouth and taken it and then tried to sign his rare earth deal.

But actually, I think it's something useful in just surfacing this, you know, and just clarifying this is where we are.

We've learned that Trump has flipped 180 degrees to the Russian side.

We've learned that his approach to peace is to bully Ukraine and ask nothing of Russia.

We've learned that the Republican Party in the United States is completely of the process of not having any spine and capitulating to Trump's foreign policy.

And so what does it mean going forward?

If I'm Europe and Ukraine, I'm saying we need to develop a shared position for this war.

that is separate from the United States of America and actually sees that this is the United States and Russia sitting on one side of the negotiating table and Europe and Ukraine sitting on the other.

And as dark and as extreme as that sounds, I think that's where we are.

And so they, because Ukrainians, by the way, don't have to stop fighting.

You know, there were reports early in the invasion when Russia thought they were going to roll over Kyiv that they were going to have a guerrilla warfare type approach.

So the Ukrainians don't have to like agree to Trump's terms that he strikes with Moscow.

I think the Ukrainians need to figure out with the Europeans what are their positions?

What are they insisting on?

They're going to have to give a bunch of stuff, including territory, but

what can they insist on in terms of like a credible ceasefire line, essentially?

And then what is a peace force that has

British and French troops?

There was an interesting comment from Turkey that they might get involved with troops on the ground.

What is a credible European force that can provide some security guarantee and some presence there?

And then how do you build a European defense and foreign policy that is totally separate from the United States?

Because the United States has switched sides.

And

I wish that wasn't the case, but I think that's where we are.

And I don't know that just like signing some dumb rare earths thing is going to make Trump be nicer to them.

It's not.

So figure out your own interest and act accordingly.

It's what all of us are going to have to do in these Trump years.

Yeah, I mean, look, the more we learned about the rare earths agreement, the more it just seemed like nothing.

You know, it like initially just sounded like complete extortion, and now I don't even know what it was.

I do think, you know, to your question, we should ask, like, did Zelensky screw up?

I think

I give him like all, like, I have so much sympathy for him, but I think the answer is kind of, of course, he did.

I mean, challenging J.D.

Vance, getting into that pissing match.

Like, it, like, we can look at inputs.

DC people look at inputs too much, and they don't look at outputs.

Like, the end result of that meeting was a fucking disaster for Zelensky personally, politically, and for his country.

So, obviously, he should have approached it differently.

I think the challenge is he's got politics.

Trump's got politics, right?

Like, he's not going to walk in there and make a bunch of sort of rhetorical concessions to Putin before negotiations actually begun, a negotiation that he's not part of, by the way.

And Trump just wouldn't broke any dissent

or,

you know,

actually, like, he mocked.

uh zelensky at one point for saying i don't want a ceasefire but zelensky's point was like not that i don't want this the fighting to stop he was like i don't want a ceasefire where putin then breaks it over and over again and reinvades my country.

So, I mean, look, yeah, we'd be like, I think, dishonest if we said that Zelensky had played that thing perfectly, but or even remotely well.

But I do think it was a setup for domestic consumption here in the U.S.

Yeah, I think that, like, by any measure, like

tactically, you don't get into a fight with J.D.

Vance in the Oval Office.

You don't allow yourself to be humiliated by the President of the United States to that extent.

But I'm not saying this to give him credit because I don't think it was his strategy.

I think the utility in it is we know what we're dealing with now, right?

Like we have the Heg Seth laying down of terms without consulting Ukraine and Europe in which they surrender all their territory and the campaign NATO.

We have the J.D.

Van speech in Munich endorsing the European far right.

We've got Trump calling Zelensky dictator, and now we have this.

And so there can be no illusions that somehow some committee to save America is going to, or Marco Rubio or whoever, or Lindsey Graham is gonna the Oval Office and convince Trump to suddenly get tough on the Russians.

Like, so I'm not saying that Zelensky was like playing some chess and, you know, outed this.

I'm saying he messed up by getting baited into this, but there may be something worthwhile that comes out of just clarifying, okay,

this is actually where we are, you know?

And I can tell you, like, from, you know, having been in Munich and, you know, different Europeans, like, this is what the Trump people are like behind closed doors, too, you know, like from what I hear.

Like,

they're not just performing for the cameras.

Like,

this is who they are.

And so now he's got to go back.

And I was thinking too, Tommy, like,

you know, he made that comment about like, I will step down if it brings peace.

Like,

he's got to be also thinking about.

that, you know, not stepping down now, but like, you know, like, what is

what, like, he, he's tired.

He's clearly a lightning rod to Trump because Trump wrongly, unfairly sees him as some guy who's like aligned with things that Trump doesn't like, like democracies and Europeans and internationalists in this country.

And

so I think he's got to stand up to Trump

and try to get the best deal for his people and from the Europeans.

And then, you know, that's that's his mission.

And then he's done.

You're right, though.

I mean, this is really tough for Zelensky because he showed unbelievable, incredibly inspiring courage in the very early days of that war.

And by just sort of like force of personality, he brought the entire world to his side, helped rally support in the U.S., in Europe, everywhere, like public opinion, in capitals, everywhere.

And if he is seen now as having kind of lost that touch, I mean, I'm sure

the shine faded during the Biden administration when a lot of Ukrainians felt like they were getting some of what they wanted, but getting it late and getting it slow and not getting enough of it.

But this meeting, I think,

is probably going to, I mean, maybe it'll rally people to his side, but it might also make them wonder whether he's the right person to be the interlocutor with the United States when they're so relying on us.

So a very challenging political moment for him personally, as well as for the country.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, if I'm him, I'm going to take a breath.

And I'm going to talk.

I mean, I honestly, frankly, I guess you got to do the Brett Baer car wash, but

he can't just go on there and grovel, you know.

And Brett Baer will be an asshole.

As a side note, too, Tommy, it's like, do you remember like, you know, people would go to final leaders go to China, they have to do CCTV, the state media?

Like, Fox News has become like the CCTV of the U.S.

That's pretty dark, too.

You know, like that, that's not normal people, you know, like there's a lot of other people that you could do interviews with, but they know that they like have to talk to Brett Baer and Fox News because that's who Trump wants them to talk to.

Yep, Deer Lair will be watching.

So, I will see, you know, I'm sure he'll kind of recalibrate this a little bit, but he can't fold or capitulate, and that's also not in his character.

And I think you go back, you talk to Macrone, you talk to Starmer, you talk to Mertz and Schultz and the Germans, if you're Zelensky, and you kind of go back to the drawing board: okay, like, what's our position, our being Europe and Ukraine, and this negotiation with the U.S.

and Russia?

Yeah,

dark day.

Well,

historic day, you know.

Yeah.

One of, one of many we've been covering recently.

Well, I'm very glad that we decided to do this.

I had no idea how horrendous it was going to be, but great to get to talk to you, Ben.

I thought we'd be talking about like a rare earths agreement.

I know, I did too.

Trying to explain why that was important.

That's it for today.

Thanks again for listening.

We'll be back with our regular episode on Wednesday.

And please subscribe to the Pod Save the World YouTube page.

See you guys.

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