The long road to treaty | Insiders On Background

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Speaker 1 It's been a long road, but finally, Australia has, for the first time, a treaty with Aboriginal people now signed and formalised as law in Victoria.

Speaker 1 Now, treaties like this aren't uncommon around the world. If we look at other countries like Canada and New Zealand, it's something they're experienced with.

Speaker 1 But here in Australia, it has now become a first just in 2025. There are a lot of hopes that this historic moment will lead to change, lead to better outcomes for all Victorians.

Speaker 1 But what does the treaty actually involve? What will it require of Victorians? What will it offer Victorians and what lessons might there be for other Australians?

Speaker 1 We might be looking at what ways to try and progress justice and equality with Indigenous Australians.

Speaker 1 I'm keen to hear from those directly involved in this process and one of the people who signed the document into law is the co-chair of the First People's Assembly of Victoria, Rubenberg.

Speaker 1 I'm Melissa Clark on Nunnawall Country at Parliament House in Canberra. Welcome to Insiders on Background.

Speaker 1 Ruben, thanks very much for joining me on the podcast.

Speaker 2 My pleasure.

Speaker 1 So can I get you to tell me about the moment that this treaty was signed? You were at the governor's residence in Victoria.

Speaker 1 You had the Premier, you had the Minister, you had your co-chair beside you. Can you tell me about that moment and what its significance was for you?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was just another really powerful moment on this journey towards treaty-making here in Victoria.

Speaker 2 And to be able to finalise that agreement by signing it alongside the Premier, alongside the Minister and my fellow co-chair Nagara, and in front of the members of the Assembly, key leaders from our community, was a moment that I'll never forget.

Speaker 1 It's been quite a journey, hasn't it? There's been a lot of steps along the way to get to this point. How do you reflect on that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it is really key to recognise the significant journey we've been on to treaty making here in Victoria.

Speaker 2 Ten years ago, essentially, there was a big discussion around how we wanted to progress certain issues here as First Peoples, and treaty was seen as at the forefront of that list of how we wanted to progress things.

Speaker 2 Over the last six years, we've had the First People's Assembly of Victoria, the democratically elected group of traditional owners from all across the state leading in this treaty-making process.

Speaker 2 And there's been other key pieces of legislation passed on this journey.

Speaker 2 And now, to have the treaty signed, the legislation come into law, and on the 12th of December, we'll have the formal process to commence the treaty. It's been a remarkable journey.

Speaker 1 It really has, and it'll keep going from here. So under this treaty and the agreements that are in place, the First People's Assembly is going to be made permanent under a new structure.

Speaker 1 Can you take me through that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so at its heart, what this creates is the Gullung Wal, which is the kind of overarching treaty landscape that's going to be here in Victoria.

Speaker 2 And within the Gullung Wal, there are a few key components.

Speaker 2 One is the ongoing First People's Assembly of Victoria as that democratically elected group that will continue and be able to make representations to government, represent the key views of our community.

Speaker 2 There's also within that Galangwal space a new accountability mechanism, the Nynman Yanya Wara.

Speaker 2 It's really important we have this ability to hold government to account, to be able to ask the key questions that need to be asked and access the data we need to access to make sure government is progressing on the things they need to be progressing on.

Speaker 2 And the third component, key component, is the truth-telling component, the Nyanyu Yuruk Talkuna.

Speaker 2 We had a four-year truth-telling process here in Victoria that has concluded, but we wanted to ensure there was the ability to continue to have truth-telling and to make sure that the work of Yoruka didn't just sit on a shelf somewhere.

Speaker 2 So they're the three key components of this Gullungwal Treaty landscape.

Speaker 1 So let's drill into this. So let's start with the representation.
What does that look like? What requirements are there from the government to receive your representations?

Speaker 1 How far does that extend?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so there's several different components of that representation role for the Assembly.

Speaker 2 One is the ability to address Parliament once a year for the leaders of the Assembly to have that address, to be able to talk about whatever issues they think are important for the politicians there to hear and understand directly from First Peoples.

Speaker 2 There's also the ability for us to meet with Cabinet twice a year and then obligations on the state that when they are coming up with laws, policies or processes around First Peoples will create a duty to consult around how they engage with our experts on those matters.

Speaker 2 And any time that legislation is being tabled, there needs to be this statement of compatibility to assess whether or not it does have any impact on First Peoples and how that's being taken into account.

Speaker 1 So, would that be a similar framework to what a lot of legislatures currently have when it comes to, say, human rights, where there's a requirement to assess how it's compatible with human rights in place to give people an idea?

Speaker 1 I assume it would be a similar process to that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right. It very much builds off those existing processes, and that's the case for many of the different things we have achieved through this treaty-making process.

Speaker 2 We've been able to draw from what we've seen working both here and internationally to kind of combine together to make this powerful galang wa and this treaty era.

Speaker 1 So take me through those accountability mechanisms that you mentioned, the ability to ask questions of government. Explain how that will work for me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this accountability mechanism is a really key component and something that draws directly from the Productivity Commission's review they did a couple of years ago now into Closing the Gap and said that a key shortfall was that there wasn't a First Peoples-led body that could actually monitor government's progress around Closing the Gap.

Speaker 2 And so that's what we've put in place: this Ninman Nyanyawara, led by First Peoples, the ability to hold inquiries onto particular issues, to be able to access data, to do research on particular issues.

Speaker 2 And it's not just focused on closing the gap, it's also being able to look at all government programs and frameworks that are directed towards First Peoples,

Speaker 2 as well as the recommendations that came from the truth-telling process. More than 140 recommendations came from Yurok that also formed part of the scope for the accountability mechanism.

Speaker 1 So there's certainly a lot of ability to draw attention to issues, to highlight factors, to, as you say, give representations and hold accountability, but there are no veto powers here, right?

Speaker 1 There's a limit to what the government can be compelled to do or to respond to. Is that a fair assessment?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's correct. There's no veto powers, there's no coercive powers.

Speaker 2 It really is about strengthening that relationship between the government and First Peoples and having a mechanism where we can make sure that our voice can be heard heard as part of those discussions, that our expertise is there as part of those discussions, which hasn't been the case before.

Speaker 1 Right, so take me through the third leg, the continuation of truth-telling.

Speaker 1 And I understand there's some elements there that also go to curriculum and broader education to ensure that what has been learnt through the process so far continues as part of our education for younger Australians.

Speaker 1 So take me through what that involves.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so as part of the treaty, we've secured that for the curriculum for public schooling here in Victoria from prep up to year 10, they're going to need to be able to draw from the official public record, which was the history of First Peoples and the impact of colonisation as told by First Peoples.

Speaker 2 That will be the basis for that curriculum across those year levels.

Speaker 2 And that's going to be really powerful to make sure that Victorians in those school systems can better understand the history of First Peoples directly from First Peoples.

Speaker 2 There's also then the ability for this ongoing truth-telling to really be able to have more place-based conversation around truth-telling, which we think is going to be really important.

Speaker 1 Can you take me through some of the decision-making for First Peoples that went into this?

Speaker 1 Because, obviously, with a treaty, it's a negotiation, you've managed to secure the rights to representations and accountability and truth-telling.

Speaker 1 But I'm sure there's plenty more that you would have liked if you'd been able to draft the treaty on your own.

Speaker 1 So, can you tell me about how you've gone through the process of working with your communities and getting consensus for this position?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it has been quite a lengthy process across at least those six years.

Speaker 2 And as the Democratic elected representatives, the 33 members of the Assembly have those obligations to go out and talk to their communities, talk to their constituents about their aspirations.

Speaker 2 We've hold many gatherings at a regional level, at a statewide level.

Speaker 2 We talk to our Aboriginal community-controlled experts, we talk to our traditional owner organisations, and we draw from all of that the aspirations around this treaty-making process.

Speaker 2 And importantly, when we look at where we are in terms of this treaty-making process, there are many many stages from our perspective.

Speaker 2 There's the work we've been doing as the Assembly for this first statewide treaty, but there's also the work that's happening in parallel for traditional owners to progress their own treaty-making at a local level.

Speaker 2 And we also have aspirations for future statewide treaties.

Speaker 2 So, it's really been a case of understanding our community's aspirations and trying to work out where those aspirations sit, whether it's within this first statewide treaty, future statewide treaties, or those traditional owner treaty processes.

Speaker 1 So, there's going to be different perspectives about where priority and importance lies.

Speaker 1 Does that make it trickier for those like yourself sitting at the top of the First People's Assembly to try and balance those desires?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it is always tricky to try and balance all those sometimes competing interests that we might have within the community.

Speaker 2 But I think at its heart, this has always been about how do we get better outcomes for our communities. And so as long as we're able to demonstrate how what we're achieving now

Speaker 2 gets us to that pathway of better outcomes, then hopefully people can see where their aspirations fit within that process.

Speaker 1 So the state opposition in Victoria, the Liberal Party, has vowed to scrap this treaty

Speaker 1 if they win the next election. They don't think it is a practical way of delivering better outcomes for Aboriginal Victorians.

Speaker 1 I think they've put forward the idea of a new government department instead. Can you give me a sense of what that would mean for the treaty and for the work that's been done so far?

Speaker 1 Certainly the state opposition wouldn't be alone in wondering, wondering: is that the best way to bring about practical change?

Speaker 1 How do you confront the idea that there might be a challenge to what's been set up in the not-tooo-distant future?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, we've had ongoing conversations with all sides of politics and throughout this process.

Speaker 2 And the first two pieces of legislation that did pass through Parliament in regards to this process did have that bipartisan support.

Speaker 2 So, it has been quite unfortunate that in the last period of time, we've lost that bipartisan support.

Speaker 2 But we continue to have open conversations with all sides of politics, and we're hopeful to be able to to demonstrate that there is practical success that comes from these processes and to get a deeper understanding that this is the way forward for First Peoples.

Speaker 1 If you can't show that practical success, does that suggest this wasn't the right way forward?

Speaker 2 I don't even contemplate that. I have every confidence that this is the right way forward.

Speaker 1 I think everyone will hope for good outcomes. So we'll see how it goes.
There's certainly a lot of desire from the public to see improvement in closing the gap across the board.

Speaker 1 Do you have any advice for other states and territories as they consider their own options for next steps in trying to achieve that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, we've of course been following very closely what's been happening in other jurisdictions around the country and we would hope that this is seen as a bit of a model about how you can progress things.

Speaker 2 Knowing that other jurisdictions are going to have their own peculiarities about how they're going to have to undertake this business, it's not just a copy and paste of what we've done here.

Speaker 2 But hopefully we can demonstrate that by really having really strong conversations with your community to bring them along the journey and being able to break things up into different milestones along the way, that's been, I think, one of the keys to success for our process here in Victoria.

Speaker 1 Do you think that trying to do too much too soon undermines public support?

Speaker 1 Is that part of the need for staging reform like this?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I think with any sort of change, if you try and go too fast too quickly, that draws resistance.

Speaker 2 And so I think from our perspective, being able to take these small steps along the way has enabled a greater comfort with these changes we're looking at here in Victoria.

Speaker 1 Now, I don't think we can escape discussing the timing of another announcement from the Victorian government that came at the same time as the treaty was signed into law, and that was the new policy around ensuring that young children who commit crimes, so under 14s, serve adult jail time if they commit violent crimes.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 this is something that would likely affect many Indigenous Australians given the higher incarceration rate of Indigenous Australians.

Speaker 1 What did you make of the timing of that announcement at the same time as the treaty was being signed?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I think to say that was bitterly disappointing is probably an understatement.

Speaker 2 It was not a thing that we would want to hear at any point in time, but particularly as we're in the process of trying to formalise this treaty process.

Speaker 2 And also, last night I had the good fortune of going along to the Aboriginal Justice Caucus celebration of the 25 years of powerful work that our community has done trying to advocate for better outcomes in justice.

Speaker 2 And it was something that was definitely felt in that space last night.

Speaker 1 Did the government give you a heads up that it was coming?

Speaker 2 We get notified that it's coming but there was no consultation with us about what they've been proposing.

Speaker 1 Now that the treaty is formally law and is underway, is that an example of something where you would have more of a voice in that policy formulation?

Speaker 2 That's right. With the processes we put in place through this first statewide treaty, we would see that there would be a much greater level of involvement on First Peoples in these processes.

Speaker 1 In terms of they would need to run me through the mechanics of it through the three or the first two pillars in particular that you were mentioning earlier.

Speaker 1 Run me through mechanically how that would take place.

Speaker 2 Yes, so as the government was going about developing that type of a legislative approach, there'd be an expectation, a requirement they would be talking to us about what they're proposing to do.

Speaker 2 Now, as we mentioned before, there are limits to the ability for us to influence that.

Speaker 2 But I think to be able to sit in the room and have those conversations and be able to talk about the lived experience of First Peoples and the disproportionate effect on these things, that's where we'd hope to be able to see some sense of change.

Speaker 2 And also, when the legislation was tabled, that's where there'd be that requirement around that statement of compatibility as well.

Speaker 1 As we look at the federal sphere, we're not seeing enormous movement from the federal government following the referendum and the failure of the voice proposal to get endorsement at that referendum.

Speaker 1 Do you want to see the federal government try and adopt a similar model to what we're seeing in Victoria?

Speaker 1 Or is your attention focused at a state and local levels now and that's where you want to see energy put?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean look it's hard to foresee exactly what might happen at that national level, but what I could imagine being a path forward is that other states and territories are able to progress the treaty-making process.

Speaker 2 And once we have a few other states and territories following down that path, there could be the ability to kind of branch that out into a Commonwealth-wide approach.

Speaker 2 But also in terms of truth-telling, I think there's great scope for nationwide truth-telling, and that I think should be a really key priority.

Speaker 1 How do you think they should go about that?

Speaker 2 I think they can learn from the powerful work we've done here in Victoria around that truth-telling process.

Speaker 2 But what you want is a really culturally safe space where members of the First Peoples community can come forward and share their truths, and also access to data to be able to unpack exactly what has happened in the past, and the ability for First Peoples to actually question ministers, to be able to question the premiers we had here in Victoria.

Speaker 1 Can you have that safe space to have that process if there isn't bipartisan support at a political level for a process like that?

Speaker 2 I think you still can, yes.

Speaker 1 All right, well, that's going to be plenty for our federal politicians to think about, and I know there's going to be a lot of eyes on Victoria now to see the next steps in this journey.

Speaker 1 Rubenberg, thank you very much for taking me through it.

Speaker 2 My My pleasure.

Speaker 1 Thanks to Ruben Berg, the co-chair of the First People's Assembly of Victoria.

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