Sussan Ley killed net zero. Will it save her?

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Speaker 5 Today the Australian people have voted for Australian values.

Speaker 7 Government is always formed in a sensible centre, but our Liberal Party reflects a range of views.

Speaker 6 Politics is the brutal game of arithmetic, but no one's going to vote for you who don't stand for something.

Speaker 5 We've always been about the planet, but we've got to make sure that people have their daily needs met.

Speaker 6 People are starting to see that there is actually a different way of doing politics.

Speaker 5 Hello and welcome to the party room. I'm Patricia Carvellis and I'm joining you from Murundari Country in Melbourne for this special bonus question time edition.

Speaker 1 And I'm Mel Clark on Ngunnawal Country here at Parliament House in Canberra. Back again so soon PK.
Who would have thought climate policy would bring us all together once again?

Speaker 5 Oh we're brought together. We are.
Look, Mel, you've been, you know, because you get up at the cracker dawn, been there, done that.

Speaker 5 You certainly are burning the candle at both ends because this is such a huge debate. But really, it's been interesting to watch.

Speaker 5 So yesterday for the main pod, we brought you, you know, this new position, the breaking of bipartisanship on this. And in a moment, we're going to take your questions in this bonus episode.

Speaker 5 Like many of you have sent us questions we haven't gotten to for a little while.

Speaker 5 So we're going to do a proper response to everything you've asked us, but just a few developments since yesterday's record in the wake, of course, of that big change.

Speaker 5 Susan Lee has been, and, you know, makes sense, she had to do it on a media blitz defending the policy shift and really doubling down in many ways, which I suppose.

Speaker 5 is her only choice if she remains leader because this is the overwhelming view of her political party.

Speaker 5 She said things like we need to step on the gas, literally, i.e.

Speaker 1 pun intended or pun unintended with that one. Oh, they thought that was a brilliant line.

Speaker 5 She says injecting more gas into the system and supply is critical, okay, critical, sure,

Speaker 5 and has defended remaining in Paris, but I don't know.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 5 Are they into it?

Speaker 1 I've also been really interested in the media performances and responses that we're also getting from some of the other political players here.

Speaker 1 Pauline Hansen's One Nation was very quick to put out a statement saying, this is all smoke and mirrors. They haven't really pulled out of Paris and properly dumped net zero.

Speaker 1 They need to actually pull out of Paris if they're serious about dumping net zero.

Speaker 1 And then we've also had a number of the teal independents come out and say that this will consign the Liberal Party to electoral death in their seats, that their constituents want to see an opposition with a strong alternative policy and they're not getting it here.

Speaker 1 So I feel like there's been criticism from both of the audiences that the coalition were trying to address with this compromise policy.

Speaker 5 That's such a great point you make about the One Nation critique. So the critique coming from the right.

Speaker 5 And there is a school of thought on this, Mel, that doesn't matter how far the Liberals want to go on some of these things, the One Nation and the far right will always go further.

Speaker 5 And there's another example here: immigration, right?

Speaker 1 They're going hard on immigration.

Speaker 5 Get this.

Speaker 5 You know, the right, they're just going to say, pause immigration for five years, which of course would be an economic disaster for our country country on the metrics, they will always go harder than the Liberals.

Speaker 5 So this is, in its essence, the problem with embracing any extreme. You can never be extreme enough.
So you can never kind of take that territory back.

Speaker 1 Isn't this the lesson that the coalition has been confronting for years now?

Speaker 1 I mean, I feel like this is the same debate we've had since the Howard era in terms of how does the Liberal Party respond to a challenge like Pauline Pauline Hansen and like the other smaller right-wing groups that have cropped up to the side of it, they're still wrestling with how far to embrace or not embrace those groups.

Speaker 1 And likewise, it's the same with this climate policy. We're having the same debates play out.
Do you need to differentiate?

Speaker 1 Do you not need to have any policy and focus entirely on economic issues at the expense of anything on environment?

Speaker 1 Do you need to work in a bipartisan fashion but propose to just prosecute the case that the other guys are just aren't good enough at delivering the outcome that you want?

Speaker 1 So do you fight on delivery rather than on ideology?

Speaker 1 These are the same debates that have been playing out in the Liberal and National parties for better part of a decade and a half and they're still playing out today even after the latest announcement of a climate policy.

Speaker 5 And what do you make of the sort of sales job Susan Lee

Speaker 5 is giving to this?

Speaker 5 Because there is a view that she's a moderate, that she's sort of, this isn't necessarily what she really wanted, even though she never really told us, which I always, by the way, thought was a bit odd.

Speaker 5 I really did. I thought sort of sitting completely on the fence and now going boots and all into this, is it authentic? Let's not forget authenticity is a key part of political success.

Speaker 5 Whenever you think of someone like Tony Abbott, when he was going hard on these issues, you knew he meant it, right?

Speaker 1 It's the old Howard, you might not like what I stand for, but you know what I stand for. Yeah, you don't have that with Susan Lee through this process.

Speaker 1 But I also think I've been surprised by the amount of sympathy there is for Susan Lee. And I'm not talking about just from her supporters.

Speaker 1 I've actually spoken to quite a few Labor people over the last 24 hours.

Speaker 1 And even Labor people are saying they kind of feel sorry for her, which they seem quite conflicted about because obviously as Labor Party members, whether they're staffers or MPs, you know, that's their political opponent.

Speaker 1 But even they're expressing sympathy because they see Susan Lee as the face that's been put forward to present this idea that's definitely a camel designed by a committee.

Speaker 1 But I think

Speaker 1 we'll have to see over the next few weeks as to whether or not she is extended that sympathy and the blame is given elsewhere in the Liberal Party.

Speaker 1 or if the fact she didn't take a different course at this point and has left herself exposed now to have to make more concessions to the Conservatives who have successfully flexed their muscle and upset the moderate so her support base is now less inclined to support her.

Speaker 1 Does that sympathy evaporate

Speaker 1 if the Conservative side of the Liberal Party keeps flexing this newly embulged muscle?

Speaker 5 The largest muscles, I mean, what are they doing? They must be taking those special drugs that those bros take. Seriously, it's a lot of muscle.

Speaker 5 Look, interesting response from someone like Malcolm Turnbull, who's been there, done that, right? You know, know, he knows this twice.

Speaker 1 Well, he knows exactly this.

Speaker 5 Twice, twice, too. Don't forget it, twice.
When he was opposition leader and then as prime minister, essentially, twice he has been rolled by conservatives on the basis of this issue. Oh my,

Speaker 5 there is actually a guidebook here. We know what it looks like because it's happened before.

Speaker 5 He was pretty full on, I think, this morning in some of his commentary, like basically saying that this is Groundhog Day. Susan Lee was trapped in a terrible fishbowl of the Liberal Party.

Speaker 5 So Mel, that's all right. That's true, right? Like that's accurate.

Speaker 1 Without a doubt.

Speaker 1 We've seen this before and it never ends like that. So her days are numbered, aren't they?

Speaker 1 I think they are.

Speaker 1 I don't think that...

Speaker 5 I don't mean to be impolite, but that's how it looks to me.

Speaker 1 I mean, cut to the chase. I don't think there was ever a realistic suggestion she was going to be

Speaker 1 rolled in the leadership during the course of this week.

Speaker 1 This policy needed to be settled one way or another, and they've come up with a very messy outcome, but it was always going to be a messy outcome.

Speaker 1 There's no desire from someone who wants a long-term leadership role to jump in just at the messiest moment.

Speaker 1 There's also the sense that she needs to be seen to be given an opportunity to try and progress this as a policy. But

Speaker 1 I think by the time we get to the start of the new year,

Speaker 1 or at least the next time we face a fractious issue, if the Conservatives do try and push on immigration policy for a significant change there,

Speaker 1 when it comes to the crunch, if the numbers need to be called, the numbers won't be there for her.

Speaker 5 And that's just a simple game of arithmetic. This is now,

Speaker 5 this is the party room.

Speaker 5 That's the lay of the land.

Speaker 1 Look, this emissions reduction policy. It hasn't actually settled anything.
It hasn't settled the policy question because there are so many contradictions and gaps in what has been delivered.

Speaker 1 And it hasn't settled the leadership question precisely because because the process has resulted in something that's not terribly workable.

Speaker 1 So we're really just in another interim stage until there is the next reckoning of the party on policy and leadership. It will come.
It's just a matter of time now.

Speaker 1 The other thing, Pika, I did want to mention is there's certainly a lot of long faces today. There's frustrations from the Liberals who realise how bad this looks for them.

Speaker 1 But I have seen some very happy faces and most of them have been on Nationals MPs.

Speaker 1 I mean, Barnaby Joyce, who you spoke to, PK, David Littleproud as well, looked very satisfied with the outcome, made it clear that this policy mirrors what the National Party's been able to arrive at.

Speaker 1 He was saying that takes leadership, that takes maturity, which I think is him sort of... projecting on Susan Lee what he wants to project on his own process of having got the Nationals to a position.

Speaker 1 But the Nats are kind of like the cats that got the cream, aren't they, PK?

Speaker 5 So Sunday is the key pivotal moment. And we're getting to your questions in a moment don't worry we did promise it but Sunday the negotiation

Speaker 5 all to be done and dusted clearly that coalition stays together I mean how can it not? It's exactly what they wanted.

Speaker 1 It's the same policy. The dream come true for the Nationals.

Speaker 5 Wow for the Nationals. For the Nationals.
All right shall we get to our extended question time?

Speaker 1 I'm excited by this. Let's do it.

Speaker 6 Questions without notice. Are there any questions? Members on my route.
The Prime Minister has the call. Thanks very much, Mr.
Speaker.

Speaker 6 Well then I give the call to the Honourable, the Leader of the Opposition.

Speaker 7 Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
My question is to the Prime Minister.

Speaker 5 The bells are ringing. That means it's time for question time, and we're going to answer a few questions, all around the theme of, yeah, the Liberals ditching net zero and its implications.

Speaker 5 Our first question comes from Paul.

Speaker 2 Hi, Melan Piquet. It's Paul from Boorloo, Perth.
Thanks so much for the show. I really enjoy listening and it's great to have an opportunity to send questions in for you to consider.

Speaker 2 I do like listening to Sky News interviews often because it gives me a good sense of what I think is being talked about on the Conservative side of politics.

Speaker 2 Lately, they've really been hammering home this idea that net zero isn't okay because cost of living pressures are so important that we have to focus all of our energies on that.

Speaker 2 Well I think at the moment that Middle Australia's consensus is that we can do both,

Speaker 2 we can have a net zero target, we can look at our climate change obligations under the Paris Agreement and also address cost of living pressures.

Speaker 2 What risk do you think there is that in the next two and a half years, that consensus breaks down and Middle Australia says, actually, no, we just need to focus on meeting cost of living challenges?

Speaker 2 And if that's the case, what risk would there be to Labor winning at the next election? Thanks so much. Hope you both have a great weekend.

Speaker 5 That's a really interesting question, Paul.

Speaker 5 Okay, next election. Well, it's in two and a half years, as you say in your question.
So there's a lot to play out in that time frame.

Speaker 5 Just think about the first term of the Albanese government, that period where they were in the doldrums after the referendum, how that turned around, how themes can really shift, how some good economic news can change the narrative.

Speaker 5 And I think that happened around interest rates in the last election as well.

Speaker 1 I don't know, Mel, how do you consider that?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, firstly, can I say, Paul, I think it's really great that you're listening to information and perspectives that you don't necessarily agree with.

Speaker 1 I think that's really important for making sure we don't get stuck in silos and lose an understanding of what people who hold different views think about issues that we engage with.

Speaker 1 So I really like that you're doing that, Paul. And I think what you're hearing in that discussion about

Speaker 1 are concerns about cost of living and economic pressures just going to overwhelm any other consideration when it comes to the next election.

Speaker 1 Now, that is definitely the strategy that many of the Conservatives in the Liberal Party are banking on.

Speaker 1 They are looking at what is happening in the UK and the US, where there are different economic pictures to what we have in Australia, where in an international comparison our economy is still in good shape compared to many other economies.

Speaker 1 And we have a very different political system, as we've talked about many times. So the question is, are the trends that they're seeing in the UK and the US, do we think that trend could happen here?

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 I don't have enough of a crystal ball to know what the next two and a half years deliver. I mean, God, just think about what's happened in the last couple of years.

Speaker 1 Wars in different parts of the world, the impact that that's had on our economic situation here,

Speaker 1 pandemic. So I wouldn't want to guess, but I would say that if we look at the information we've got right now, Polling has consistently shown over

Speaker 1 years that Australian people care about climate change and they want reasonable action on climate change. And that hasn't changed even when economic fortunes have changed.

Speaker 1 We can look at demography and younger generations are becoming a bigger cohort of the voting public and we know they prioritise action on climate change more highly than older generations.

Speaker 1 So there are some really structural things that suggest that climate change is going to continue to be important to the voting public. But, and there's always a but, isn't there PK?

Speaker 1 Politics is volatile. Who knows? There's nothing to say that those long-term trends won't change in certain circumstances.

Speaker 5 Don't forget the impact and the power of good campaigning.

Speaker 5 If you can really, really nail a message and repeat and repeat, and we hate the repeat, of course, because we hear it all the time, but it sort of starts penetrating in the electorate, you can actually have maximum impact and there can be big shifts.

Speaker 5 So I don't think...

Speaker 1 And the coalition's been good at that. It has objectively been good at running campaigns.

Speaker 5 Yeah, historically, maybe not so much in recent times where I think they've lost their mojo a little, but I do think, yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm thinking Tony Abbott

Speaker 1 against the Rudd Gillard government, CPRS, and maybe the voice campaign is another example of that. Pink Bats is another example, yeah.

Speaker 5 We've got another question here from David, and this one's written, so I'm going to read it.

Speaker 5 Hey, Patricia and Mel, are the current arguments within the Liberal Party about policy, or are they simply about politics, power and control?

Speaker 5 In other words, is this only about a vocal minority of men in the conservative right of the Liberals finding it difficult to abide with a leader who is both female and moderate.

Speaker 5 It seems that no matter what decision is made about net zero, Susan Lee will still be subject to continual harassment over her leadership. And that's about that.

Speaker 5 David, that is a really good point because I do think gender is part of the story. I've been saying it.
I really do.

Speaker 5 Although you ask this kind of big question, the vocal minority of men in the conservative right of the liberals, is it about them not abiding her because she's a woman?

Speaker 5 Well, I will say also controversially, I don't think that's their main motive. I do actually believe that they believe this.

Speaker 5 I don't think they've necessarily, you know, worked out what it means for the world and the planet and our own economy. But I do think...
they believe it.

Speaker 5 And even if it was a male moderate leader, they would be in a similar position. In terms of undermining her, I think your point about, well, you know, even if she capitulates, and we know now she has,

Speaker 5 that doesn't make it end. Yeah, because there's a lot of other things going on.
And they do also believe that they would be better at prosecuting the argument than her and perhaps more enthusiastic.

Speaker 5 I think she's tried to show enthusiasm, but you know, there is an issue around that. And so I think that's at the heart of it.
And so I don't think it's only gender, but it's always part of the story.

Speaker 1 Mel? Yeah, I think that's a good point. It is definitely a significant policy fight.

Speaker 1 And whatever other issues are going on, there are deeply held beliefs of different courses of action or how much action should be taken on climate change and there's a reason they keep having the fight over this particular policy it's not random policies that there are leadership spills over in the Liberal Party.

Speaker 1 It is regularly on climate action because that is something that there are deeply held and fervently different views about in the party. So it is about policy.

Speaker 1 There is also an element of politics and power and that that comes with the direction of the party because of those policy questions.

Speaker 1 I think you're absolutely right that if it were a male moderate face in charge trying to negotiate this, the Conservatives would be

Speaker 1 as they are now.

Speaker 1 Indeed.

Speaker 1 But I would say I have spoken to some liberals who in the party room who do think that Susan Lee and her leadership style, they believe, is connected to gender in that she has been far more consultative

Speaker 1 than her predecessor in Peter Dutton. And they say they point to that as being that gender being a factor in that.

Speaker 1 And that some, I'm just passing on what some liberals have said, have said that they don't think that some of the old hands in the Liberal Party have adjusted well to something that's not a command and control leadership style.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 those elements were, or those those suggestions that were put to me or descriptions given to me were saying, look, there's a lot of people in the Liberal Party who've just been in the political sphere for a large chunk of their working lives.

Speaker 1 They're really just not up to date with contemporary corporate practices. They act like they were back in the 80s.

Speaker 1 And they think that is playing a factor into how Susan Lee is being treated because she's not stomping in a lead from the top and quell all dissent type of fashion.

Speaker 1 So that's certainly certainly not a universal view, but there are some liberal MPs who see that gender is a factor in how some are responding to her approach to the leadership.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think that's right. Okay, we've got another question.
Of course, we do. That's what we do here.
It's

Speaker 1 lots of questions. This is great.

Speaker 5 Meg has written in a question. Do you think David Littleproud has gone first with dumping net zero to wedge Susan Lee and try to make himself the front stronger leader in the coalition?

Speaker 5 He looked like a cat that got the cream when talking to the press about the outcome. I think it would be great to hear a discussion on David Littleproud as part of this.

Speaker 5 And remember, he pulled the same start with the voice referendum. Love the pod, Meg.
Oh, Meg, Meg, you nailed it, Meg.

Speaker 1 Meg. Yes.
I think you've got opinions here, PK.

Speaker 5 Meg. Yes, Meg, you are correct.
I believe that David Littleproud

Speaker 5 has many motives for this. One of them absolutely being the solidification,

Speaker 5 the

Speaker 5 trying to absolutely make ironclad his own leadership. And part of that is he read the room on his own party room.

Speaker 5 Remember, this is a guy who was into net zero not that long ago, Mel, but he saw that there was a shift in his party, which wasn't small. It wasn't just Matt Canavan.
It wasn't just Barnaby Joyce.

Speaker 5 It was growing. It was gaining momentum and it was dominant.
And then he had to do the switcheroonie.

Speaker 5 That's why he had this, you know, he all of a sudden platformed Matt Canavan, who was very anti-this. And when he made that decision, everything changed.

Speaker 1 Matt Canavan, who'd been banished, to be clear, to the backbench because of his continual agitating on this issue.

Speaker 1 But then when it came to, well, we want to do a formal review and we're looking at what our position is, brought back into the tent in a key position to co-lead that review.

Speaker 5 That's, you know, that was a pivotal moment. So going first on this, I mean, they knew that the Liberal Party had a longer process.

Speaker 5 Dantean, only up until like a month ago was saying, oh, I'm into the middle of next year.

Speaker 5 Everything changed when the Nationals changed their timeframe.

Speaker 5 Adding to that though, you can't pretend that the Conservatives inside of the Liberal Party weren't also pushing for a tighter timeframe. So I don't think you can just put it all on the Nationals.

Speaker 5 But I do think there was a bit of a confidence play with David Littleproud. In terms of trying to be the stronger one with Susan Lee, I think it's more about his own party.

Speaker 5 I don't think he really cares overly about being in control at all of the Liberal Party. I think it's making sure that he stays leader of the Nationals.
What do you think, Mel?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, when it comes to the dynamic between the Liberals and Nationals, that, again, is the hard reality of arithmetic.

Speaker 1 And as much as the Nationals like to talk about their electoral success, they do not have the numbers that the Liberal Party, even in its diminished state, has.

Speaker 1 So the Liberals will always be the senior party and when they're in coalition, hold more senior portfolios.

Speaker 1 But if David Littleproud can show that he has significant influence over the policy agenda of the two parties, then that strengthens his position in his own party. And that, too, is precarious.

Speaker 1 So you're spot on, PK. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Okay, we've got a question from Brianna.

Speaker 8 Hi, PK and Mel. This is Brianna from Melbourne.

Speaker 8 Loved your discussion of

Speaker 8 the Libs dropping net zero target.

Speaker 8 My question is about the timing of it. It struck me as pretty weird that that was happening during COP30 and also when Australia is bidding to host COP31.

Speaker 8 I just wondered about, it seems to me, pretty strange timing to drop net zero target during that time,

Speaker 8 but I can't work out if there'd be any political advantage to it, which makes me wonder, is it just a massive coincidence? Which is pretty strange if it is.

Speaker 8 But I just can't work out what the politics on that are.

Speaker 8 Love to hear your thoughts on that. Thank you.

Speaker 5 Oh, Brianna, that is, yeah, the timing is quite delicious, isn't it? Like, right now, the world is discussing climate at a special conference about climate change and targets.

Speaker 5 And here we have the Liberal Party drop its commitment to net zero by 2050. I reckon it is coincidence, though.
I do.

Speaker 5 An incredible coincidence.

Speaker 5 In terms of the politics at home, I don't mean to burst anyone's bubbles, and I know anyone who listens to this pod is all over it, but I don't know how many people are really engaged in the fact that there's a COP conference overseas.

Speaker 5 Mel?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's definitely a coincidence. There's times when we should look for conspiracies.
I don't think this is one of them.

Speaker 1 There are things that have lined up to make this debate happen for the coalition now and for the Liberal Party now.

Speaker 1 We've certainly had more discussion about climate targets because the government had to submit its 2035 targets ahead of this conference in Bellum in Brazil. So that gave it a bit of urgency.

Speaker 1 But the fact that the party long had to reconcile this, the fact that the Conservatives have been agitating very hard to get a resolution on this sooner rather than later, and the fact that we're coming up to the end of the political year, that's really the driver for why this is happening now.

Speaker 1 There's only a limited number of occasions that all of the members gather in the one place at the one time, unless you call an extraordinary meeting like we ended up having with this one.

Speaker 1 And that's based around sitting weeks when everyone comes to Canberra.

Speaker 1 So, this was all gathering ahead of steam in the last sitting fortnight that we had at the beginning of November, because that was when they were all together in the one place, really bringing this to a head and also knowing that it needed to be resolved, if not now, then by the time they came back for the final sitting week of the year, which is the last week of November.

Speaker 1 So, I think it's the calendar that has forced this timing more than trying to line it up with the COP30 talks in Brazil.

Speaker 5 We've got a question here from Anna, which is worth going to.

Speaker 3 G'day party rumours. My name's Anna.
I'm from the Gold Coast. Love the show.
I was just thinking about the Coalition and the scrapping of net zero.

Speaker 3 And what I haven't really heard in the conversation is what the Coalition are going to do next time we face a natural disaster. We live in a country where they happen all the time.

Speaker 3 They're getting more severe and closer together.

Speaker 3 And we seem as a country to have this collective amnesia when it it comes to natural disasters, where if we're not in it, haven't experienced it, or

Speaker 3 it's not happening right now, we kind of put it out of our minds.

Speaker 3 They're using this poll, recent poll that says one-third want to scrap net zero, but I think if you poll us next time there's a big natural disaster, those numbers will have shifted.

Speaker 3 I just don't know how they're going to square that circle and what their messaging could possibly be if we do face a natural disaster soon after they've scrapped net zero or if we face a natural disaster coming into an election.

Speaker 3 You think of Scomo in 2020, his approval rating tanked after the bushfires and Peter Dutton when Cyclone Alfred hit just before the election.

Speaker 3 I just would love to know where they're going to go with this and what their messaging could possibly be.

Speaker 5 Anna, Anna, like can we become friends? That is exactly what I've been thinking about too, because

Speaker 5 every time we have some kind of intense disaster, the most obvious that I can mention that will seriously be in everyone's minds.

Speaker 5 I mean, my kids mentioned this moment, which is, of course, the bushfires and Scott Morrison going to Hawaii while the nation was burning, or the East Coast was, certainly, and how incensed the public were about that and how focused they were on climate change during that time because their communities were burning down, their lives were at risk, everything was changing, they felt a loss of control and they were very, very focused on the fact that, you know, they felt that there was an inaction from the government.

Speaker 5 And in fact, I think Scott Morrison in trying to repair a lot of that, and it was very hard, I don't know if he could ever come back from it, but was very alert to the climate stuff and the way that that was playing out within all of this.

Speaker 5 So yeah, we can have this discussion right now when it's a bit peaceful before the summer season, but you have a sort of catastrophic flooding event again, or a catastrophic fire event again, or, you know, cyclone, all the things that happen that seem more intense because we know they always happened.

Speaker 5 We know that. We're not being silly.
We know they've always happened in this country. The intensity and how often we know is worse because of climate change.
And that's in people's mind.

Speaker 5 And I think that is a big political risk for them, Mel.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think we've we've seen certainly changes over time.

Speaker 1 That when we have things like the Black Summer bushfires in southeastern Australia, when we've seen some of the repeated flooding events on the east coast and the level of severity of cyclones up in the northwest, I mean, every time these elements happen, it is a reminder of the costs, the direct costs of climate change.

Speaker 1 And subsequent to that, things like the incredible insurance bills that come as a result of then trying to insure a property that might be at flood risk or the health consequences that people are still suffering from,

Speaker 1 significant inhalation of smoke for extended weeks on end during bushfire seasons. They are lingering reminders for people of the impacts of climate change and we have another disaster.

Speaker 1 It will absolutely bring back memories, if not a direct experience for people of those times. But having said that, as I mentioned before, there has consistently been support for climate action.

Speaker 1 So I don't think it necessarily changes views, but what it might do is change the order of priority when people walk into a polling booth of what they're voting on.

Speaker 1 So we know voters consistently, a high proportion of voters do clear about climate action and think it's important. But when you go into a polling booth, you're not getting to vote on an issue.

Speaker 1 You have to vote on a package of issues. And maybe there's times when economic issues rank more highly because the circumstances are more severe.

Speaker 1 Or maybe there's a social services health issue, like managing a pandemic that suddenly becomes more important.

Speaker 1 So I think the risk for the coalition is the concern that exists for climate change steps higher up the order for more voters when they go into a polling place if we have another big disaster like this.

Speaker 1 Does that make sense, PK?

Speaker 5 Oh, it makes total sense. I think you're absolutely right because it does bounce around.
And obviously, there are different things that have become dominant issues.

Speaker 5 We know that because there was an inflation crisis and we know how that impacted on people's lives. So I do think it changes.

Speaker 5 But yeah, I think natural disaster will really focus the attention and also the media's attention, the questions that get asked, you know, so it again refocuses every time.

Speaker 5 Oh, I'm so glad we did this bonus episode. I feel like that wasn't enough for me yesterday, Mel.
That was not enough. I needed to say more things.
So I'm really glad.

Speaker 1 There's lots to say about this. It's a really interesting, you know, I'm a a policy nerd, PK, so there's so many interesting policy questions about environment, about energy,

Speaker 1 about economics as well. But then there's also the politics that are playing out in front of us that are very dynamic and changing every moment.
We're going to have plenty more opportunities to

Speaker 1 talk about this, PK, because this is really going to dominate the next couple of weeks as Parliament looks to wrap up for the year.

Speaker 5 It's going to be wild. And that's it for the party room today.
Thank you for your excellent questions.

Speaker 5 Keep them coming in because we, of course, answer them in all the episodes we do, but we did this one especially. Send them to the partyroom at abc.net.au.

Speaker 1 And remember to follow politics now on the ABC Listen app so that you do not miss an episode. I'm going to be back in the feed tomorrow for insiders on background.

Speaker 1 I'm just stepping in for David Spears.

Speaker 1 Speaking to Reuben Burke, who's the co-chair of the First People's Assembly of Victoria, because of course he was one of the ones who signed into law Victoria's historic treaty with First Peoples.

Speaker 1 It's a really big milestone for the whole nation but I'm not sure it's had the national attention that it deserves because other issues like certain political shenanigans have certainly dominated a lot of the headlines.

Speaker 1 So Ruben is going to chat to me about how it works, what it means, what lessons there might be at a federal level for how to go forward with efforts to try and close the gap and improve inclusion of Indigenous Australians in policy-making decisions.

Speaker 1 So that will be in your feed. And then, of course, you'll be back with politics now on Monday, Pika.

Speaker 5 Yeah, Monday. And I'm sure there will be a lot to talk about after the Nationals and the Liberals do their little redeal.

Speaker 5 Another sort of...

Speaker 1 Reconciliation of two policies that are almost reconciled.

Speaker 5 All right, just a big hug.

Speaker 5 In the rush of getting yesterday's episode out, it seems our survey link wasn't working. So we fixed that today.
You can find a working link in the show notes.

Speaker 5 We'll leave the survey open until Sunday, so please share your feedback with us about the show: what you love, what you don't love, what you want more of, what you want less of. See you, Mel.

Speaker 1 See you, Piko.