Labor’s COP out on science

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Speaker 2 She was every student's favourite teacher. She would joke around with us more like a friend than a teacher.

Speaker 2 And I remember her saying to me that this is not goodbye, this is see you later, kind of thing. Well, if Ali is able to open up to somebody, that's a good thing.

Speaker 2 But what began as attention became something else.

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Speaker 2 Are we on the cusp of a science brain drain in Australia?

Speaker 2 There are major job cuts coming at the CSIRO, that is the premier science organisation in this country, adding to hundreds of positions already slashed from the organisation in the last 18 months.

Speaker 2 The Federal Science Minister, Tim Ayres, has been quick to stress the government believes in science. But do the cuts tell a different story?

Speaker 2 The government wants to distance themselves from this, but actually, they fund the joint.

Speaker 2 And Australia is still jostling with Turkey for the rights to host the UN climate conference, with shots now coming from independents questioning just how committed the government really is.

Speaker 2 Welcome to Politics Now.

Speaker 2 Hi, I'm Patricia Carvellis.

Speaker 1 And I'm David Spears.

Speaker 2 You're so David Spears. And David, we're in a country with some pre like brainiac types in it.
I mean, oh, hello. Shout out to everyone I know who's got the biggest science brain, not me.

Speaker 2 We're educated. I'm in journalists.

Speaker 2 I've got lots of smart friends, though, and I surround myself with them. These cuts to the CSIRO,

Speaker 2 okay, the CSIRO board has gone in this direction, but my goodness, it has raised questions about the government's commitment to science because they're the ones that fund this organisation, David.

Speaker 1 A few things to say here, PK. Firstly, we're not talking about the Liberal Party for once, which is a welcome relief, I'm sure, to us.
We'll get back to them no doubt.

Speaker 1 But let's talk about what's going on with the government's funding of the CSIRO, successive governments funding of the CSIRO.

Speaker 1 We heard from the boss, the CEO of the CSIRO this morning on Radio National, Doug Hilton. And yes, there's an issue here of wanting to make sure they're prioritising in areas of national priority.

Speaker 1 And maybe I'll come back to that and why we also need to allow researchers to not just focus on national priority issues, but follow their curiosity as well.

Speaker 1 Because I've got a couple of great examples of where that's led in the past with research at the CSIRO. But the other problem he identified was the funding.

Speaker 1 Over the last 15 years, their money's gone up, their funding, their appropriations, 1.3% a year on average for 15 years. Inflation has been going up 2.7% a year.
There's a problem.

Speaker 1 Even those of small brains like us journalists, PK, can realise that there's a big gap there between the money they're getting and the costs they're facing.

Speaker 1 On top of that, research costs, and this is kind of the problem you see in hospitals as well with medical inflation, research inflation does run higher than that.

Speaker 1 They've been going backwards in real terms.

Speaker 1 Their funding has been eroding in real terms. And that's meant they've had to make, well, already something like 800 job cuts, now up to another 350 research jobs going.

Speaker 1 As I say, this is an organization that has some wonderful breakthroughs that we're so proud of. Just to take a couple of them.
Back in 1938, the CSIRO recruited a scientist by the name of Dr.

Speaker 1 Doug Waterhouse. He was brought in to work on sheep blow fly problems.

Speaker 1 War broke out. He then shifts into finding a way to protect troops on the front line from malaria, from mosquitoes bearing malaria.
And the end result, Aeroguard.

Speaker 1 PK, we still love it, we still use it, it's used around the world. Another example is Wi-Fi.
I mean, initially they were looking at...

Speaker 2 Best thing that's ever happened to me.

Speaker 1 Exactly. They were looking at theoretical

Speaker 1 tiny radio waves emitting when a black hole explodes. So from deep space, tiny radio waves, a hypothetical thing that they were looking into, one thing leads to another.

Speaker 1 And they come up with Wi-Fi, which is now used in billions of devices every day.

Speaker 1 It's this sort of ability to not just, I I mean, you know, deep space radio waves, I'm sure in the 1990s that was not considered a national priority focus that the CSRO must focus on, but it's allowing them to do research into things they're curious about, make discoveries in new areas.

Speaker 1 That's what we risk losing here. We don't know what we're going to lose is the problem because

Speaker 1 it's denying these researchers the ability to do that sort of work. Now, I know the government is very heavily focused, PK.

Speaker 1 We've been covering it on protecting manufacturing in things like aluminium, zinc, lead, steel making, pouring hundreds of millions, billions of dollars into keeping steel works and smelters going.

Speaker 1 But at the same time, I'm not saying one's better than the other, we need them all, but at the same time, it's allowing these job cuts to happen at the CSIRO.

Speaker 1 And you just wonder what future jobs, potential industries, are we going to lose as a result of this?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think you've beautifully explained all of the ways that, you know, actually we we have punched above our weight in terms of science discovery all of the stuff we've done well we don't you love how i've just taken credit

Speaker 2 that as a nation we are proud of things like wi-fi absolutely But I do think on a political level that there is something a bit too cute. I'm calling it out, right?

Speaker 2 A bit too cute with, and I had a couple of people on afternoon briefing too, this whole, we believe in science. Like, oh my God, the purity.
It's, it's like,

Speaker 2 what? You're going to give us motherhood statements,

Speaker 2 and then apparently we're so stupid that we're going to go, great, they believe in science. Well, if you believe in it, fund it, buddy.
Sure. Because it does cost more, as articulated by the CSIRO.

Speaker 2 Look, I've, you know, I've spoken to people who were involved in some of this for a couple of months, and like it's been very, very, very stressful in that organization

Speaker 2 about, you know, at the universities too, how to manage this. this.

Speaker 2 They don't want to be letting people, you know, lose their jobs, valuable people, is a real risk in terms of our country and brain drain and not keeping these skills up.

Speaker 2 Like it's actually quite dangerous potentially. And I just think we've got a government that clearly

Speaker 2 cares about the budget, right?

Speaker 2 And they don't want to overspend. All right,

Speaker 2 I respect that. I get that.

Speaker 2 But like, I'm going to use the cliche, David, it's coming. Budgets are about choices, right?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I reckon this choice, the public generally believes, generally, of course, there's some anti-science types out there, disturbingly, but generally believes is worth investing in.

Speaker 2 So it's about what you prioritise, David.

Speaker 1 I think Australians are proud. of the CSIRO.
They're proud of some of those breakthroughs we mentioned. I mean, you can add in plastic banknotes, the

Speaker 1 emulsifier that's used in soft serve ice cream that our kids all love, and some of us grown-ups too. I mean, there's a long, long list.
On and on it goes.

Speaker 1 We're proud of this organisation, but the political point you make there is really valid, too.

Speaker 1 Anthony Albanese in opposition said, you know, Labor was supporting the CSIRO, not hollowing it out in government.

Speaker 1 Remember the election earlier this year? Peter Dutton was planning on big public service job cuts.

Speaker 1 It all got a bit messy, but essentially they wanted to wind back the size and scale of the public service. Now, what do we see happening? These are public service job cuts essentially at the CSIRO.

Speaker 1 Labor also relies on that CSIRO work when it comes to climate change and the cost of the energy transition as a political cudgel against its opponents as well.

Speaker 1 So it relies on this for its political points that it makes in the climate debate too. So yeah I do think this is politically problematic.

Speaker 1 Look, yes, the budget is in all sorts of problems. They need to find savings where they can.

Speaker 1 Successive governments have used efficiency dividends and funding that doesn't keep up with inflation, so real funding cuts. And that's happened across the board.

Speaker 1 But at this organisation in particular, to see another 350 odd jobs go,

Speaker 1 it just, yeah, it just means are we going to lose these future opportunities, future jobs and industries?

Speaker 1 that Australia should be thinking about alongside things like steel making and aluminium smelting.

Speaker 2 And the thing is, this is the sort of era you'd think, David, that the opposition, I have to make this little point, that the opposition should, you know, I know they've previously talked about job cuts, which gives them some vulnerability when they talk about these issues.

Speaker 2 But it's an area they could go hard on, I think, like the contradiction of the government. But look at them at the moment.
I mean, I think it's worth mentioning, because of this completely

Speaker 2 confusing,

Speaker 2 slapped together energy policy, which is really incoherent, objectively incoherent, they don't really have the political capital, capital, right?

Speaker 2 So, as a result, we've got people like David Pocock being able to get some runs on the board on this. Like, there is a sort of shift in who's able to get traction out of an issue like this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that's a good point. David Pocock, of course, is a senator for the ACT, and this is, you know, where most of the

Speaker 1 CSIRO jobs are. He's already been on this for quite a while, and I think he will be able to use this

Speaker 1 because his contest is often against Labor, against Katie Gallagher, the other ACT senator, of course, from Labour. So he'll be able to use this as a campaign tool against Labor.

Speaker 1 So I don't think we've heard the end of this from David Pocock. The Liberals have put out a statement expressing concern about this, criticising what the government's done here.

Speaker 1 But this is a problem of successive governments when it comes to underfunding of the CSIRO.

Speaker 1 In defence of the Morrison government, they did actually boost, there was a special COVID boost for the CSIRO, recognising the important role it plays. And that's now come off under Labor.

Speaker 1 So that's part of the problem here. But look, we haven't seen Susan Lee standing out the front of the CSIRO in the way that she did, you know, rush to Tomago a few weeks ago.

Speaker 1 There's, in fact, a CSIRO facility just down the road from Tomago. So I doubt we're going to see her or the Prime Minister standing out the front railing against the job losses at the CSIRO.

Speaker 1 But you just wonder why.

Speaker 2 You do wonder why. We mentioned David Pocock throwing shade on the government.
He's spoken this morning about a story we've mentioned in the pod all week, but deserves some really proper attention.

Speaker 2 In the background of political biffo of leadership knifing the government has been going back and forth on who gets to host the cop climate summit now david

Speaker 2 there's the public line which is that they're in there trying to fight against turkey essentially to get it so that it doesn't default to bond they don't want it to go back to bond lots of people don't bond doesn't want it we know this yeah i don't think germany particularly wants it there's the economic case that they've tried to make but the big question i have for you, and I think I know the answer,

Speaker 2 is there

Speaker 2 the public line? Oh, we want it, but the private line, oh God, we don't really want it, costs money.

Speaker 2 We're going to be asked questions from the Tad Bloyd papers constantly about how much it costs to put on at a time of the cost of living crisis. Oh my God, they're about to put more gas in the system.

Speaker 2 You watch, that's about to happen. Emissions reduction.
I don't know why the coalition didn't wait for this announcement, because emissions reduction, good luck to you.

Speaker 2 I predict that we're going to have some trouble with our emissions reduction, David, my friend. So why would you want scrutiny while you're hosting a COP summit? Why would you want that?

Speaker 2 I suspect they don't want it at all. Am I correct?

Speaker 1 I think it's safe to say they're not breaking their necks to host this thing. Look, obviously Chris Bowen is keener than most of them to have

Speaker 1 hosted in Australia, absolutely.

Speaker 1 But how do we know the Prime Minister might have some reservations? He's not there at the current COP meeting in Brazil.

Speaker 1 Yes, he's had a lot of travel and so on, but I think if he really, really wanted Australia to host this, he would have shown up in person rather than just sending Chris Bowen to make Australia's case in the final days of this decision.

Speaker 1 The language that the PM used yesterday on this suggests to me now that we've reached the point where he's saying, okay, if it's not us, we're happy for, we're not going to veto Turkey hosting this.

Speaker 1 In other words, we're happy enough for it to go to Turkey rather than revert to Bonn, which is the default.

Speaker 1 But we want something for the Pacific out of that. He suggested a leaders' meeting.
I think that might be a stretch to get a leaders meeting.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure quite how it would work, whether it'd be part of the COP or separate to the COP and get, you know, even getting world leaders to go to a Pacific island is a bit of a big call.

Speaker 1 Or some sort of financing arrangement to help with mitigation and adaptation on climate change for the Pacific.

Speaker 1 So he wants something to show the Pacific, which this has been a joint bid by Australia and the Pacific, to show that he tried and tried and tried, couldn't get there in the end, but he got this, got you something.

Speaker 1 Turkey is going to give the Pacific this.

Speaker 1 I think that was what I took from his remarks on this yesterday, but it does feel like the... the air is fast coming out of that balloon of Australia hosting this thing in Adelaide.

Speaker 2 The air is fast coming out, yeah. And there's, you know, like so many reasons that they don't need this headache, David.

Speaker 2 Like, I know that the line from some is that it's really good and climate leadership is important and i don't mean to be dismissive of any of that because i do think that those things are important like i'm a nerd yeah i think these things are really important but the the there is also retail politics right there is actually getting

Speaker 2 you know thinking about the way things will land and i do think it's kind of problematic i do yeah i mean i think i think there's pros and cons i mean yeah there's the big expense

Speaker 1 there's the big expensive expensive and you know at a time when people are struggling and you could spend money on gosh CSRO and other things,

Speaker 1 you know, there's always a list of things you could spend money on.

Speaker 1 There's the fact that you'd end up with a lot of pro-climate activists pointing out Australia's got a terrible record on fossil fuel exports, is expanding the Northwest gas shelf or extending the life of the Northwest Shelf gas project.

Speaker 1 All of these points would be problematic for the government.

Speaker 1 I think there'd be some upside, though, to have the world come here and highlight the importance of taking action on climate change when the other side of politics, PK, is moving in a a different direction under Susan Lee or whoever would be the leader by then.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, there'd be swings and roundabouts, but yeah,

Speaker 1 coming back to that point, I just don't get the sense that this government is breaking its neck at this point to host it.

Speaker 2 Oh, well, it's so obviously not. They need it to be sort of killed by someone else, though, because they also have the...
the problem of looking silly, right?

Speaker 2 Like you go in, you argue for something, and then all of a sudden you're not.

Speaker 1 Just quickly on that, according to the government and other countries as well, they're all supporting Australia, except for Turkey, and one country can veto this.

Speaker 1 We're in the Western Europe bloc, and we've managed to get the support of everyone, except for Turkey.

Speaker 1 And it just feels like a weird set of rules where you have that situation, and then if there's a standoff like we've seen here and no one resolves it, it goes back to Bonn.

Speaker 2 Anyway, that's the UN. Okay, David, you've got it off to the press club, but I've got another question,

Speaker 2 not on our sort of main list. We've been talking about it a lot all week on this podcast, and that's, of course, the Libs leadership woes.

Speaker 2 Just something I think worth noting. I had Jon O'Dunium on my programme afternoon briefing on Tuesday, so we're recording this on a Wednesday.

Speaker 2 And I just thought the language he used was not accidental about sending a signal that the Conservatives are not going to move against Susan Lee next week.

Speaker 2 They've made the calculation that if the moderates moved first, just a couple even,

Speaker 2 okay, they might follow, but they're not going to lead the spill, so to speak. And so she might end up with more time than you think unless an unforeseen event happens.
I think

Speaker 2 she's looking like she's on firmer ground now, not because anything great has happened coming out of her office or her, but because

Speaker 2 the waiting game of a moderate to quit out of anger and then for it to be a snowball effect that things aren't working. hasn't materialized.
I've spoken to moderates. They're not in a rush to quit.

Speaker 1 Don't you you reckon? I think at the moment the chances of

Speaker 1 I mean, look, there's always the risk of

Speaker 2 saying something that's wrong.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 1 No, there is always the risk of someone like, I don't know, for example, Sarah Henderson, critic of Susan Lee, moving a spill motion at their party room meeting.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we see how many people stick their hand in the air to spill the leadership. There's always the prospect of something like that emerging.

Speaker 1 But right now, you'd have to think that the likelihood is Susan Lee makes it through the final sitting week of parliament. I don't think the

Speaker 1 various forces are ready to make a move just yet.

Speaker 1 I think Susan Lee, look, the policy they've landed on has all sorts of problems and contradictions and so on, but she's at least been out there selling it. Boy, oh boy, has she been busy selling it.

Speaker 1 You know, that first day, I think it was the Monday after the coalition finalised the position. I can't count how many interviews she did.
She's been back at it again today.

Speaker 1 So you've got to give her a tick for the effort involved in at least trying to sell.

Speaker 1 But the policy itself still has all sorts of problems you've still got this divide over coal um pk which i think remains unresolved and could still blow up are they going to fund in any way a new coal-fired power plant then that's say yes please susan lee saying you know oh it's far-fetched idea so i think that remains unresolved immigration probably not as divisive but still you've got you know differences over is this a issue of numbers or is it an issue of as andrew hasty saying social cohesion as well uh and that gets into difficult political terrain for the liberals too so i think that remains there are a lot of these unresolved problems that could blow up at any moment but do you agree pk that next week looks like they'll stick with susan lee yeah at this stage but again you you set up so many good scenarios there for when something can change but at this stage it's not and and you know what that was always the the sort of status quo no one's done any sudden move and i will put it i'll put it to you too i just reckon they're a a bit fatigued.

Speaker 2 I mean, we've got the Victorians that have just in the Liberal Party, they've just rolled. New South Wales might do it.
I don't know. I just feel like they're running out of puff.

Speaker 1 Who'd be a Liberal leader right now?

Speaker 2 What a time to be alive. All right, I'm going to let you leave, David, because you've got a life and other things to do.
Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1 Thanks, my guest.

Speaker 2 See ya. Bye-bye.
And tomorrow, Fran Kelly will be back. Guess who's back? Shady's back.
Remember that song? She's back with the party room. I know many of you have missed Fran.
I have too.

Speaker 2 I've already spoken to her this morning and we're in a weird, weird sort of confluence of the way we do things here at the party room. Mel is with us too.
Fran, Mel, me.

Speaker 2 A handover episode.

Speaker 2 Basically. And actually,

Speaker 1 I can picture Fran after a bit of time off coming in with a long run-up on a few issues.

Speaker 2 Oh, David. Okay, I will give people a little peek.
Whoa, that meeting. I'm still recovering.
It was like, boom, boom, boom, boom. I was like, this is like, this this is, what are you doing, man?

Speaker 2 Like, yeah, she has a lot of ideas and she's not afraid to share them. So that's all happening in the party room tomorrow.
You can also send us a short voice question at the partyroom at abc.net.au.

Speaker 2 And we've got the live show where you can hear her extremely fast and furious ideas with Fran. Tickets available in our show notes.
Look it up.

Speaker 1 See you, David. See you later.