High steaks for Pauline and Barnaby

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Speaker 3 Hey, Jules and Jez here. Join us as we unpack the news of the week on Not Stupid.

Speaker 4 But you know what I think is one of the failures of the right? George Brandis made this observation a few years back, which is that they allow the very idea of human rights to be a left thing.

Speaker 4 When did that become a left issue?

Speaker 3 Climate change, too, right? I mean, how did climate change become a left issue when it's actually a fundamental business and human rights issue? Exactly.

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Speaker 4 Barnaby Joyce and Pauline Hansen did finally share that hotly anticipated steak dinner.

Speaker 4 But rather than a barbecue or a grill, it was the humble sandwich press in the One Nation leader's office that did the trick.

Speaker 4 And after the two shared a steak and the sides, Barnaby Joyce confirmed he'd come to a decision about his future by the end of the week. So where will the New England MP land? Welcome to Politics Now.

Speaker 4 Hi, I'm Patricia Carvellis.

Speaker 1 And I'm Claire Armstrong.

Speaker 4 And Claire, what's the best thing you've cooked on a toasty maker?

Speaker 1 I have a really weird answer for this. I am a big fan of reheating day-old hot chips in the sandwich press.

Speaker 1 We do that in my household. It's so good.
It's so good.

Speaker 1 Oh my God, we're the same people. It's like a kind of bubble and squeaky, like squishy little.

Speaker 4 Okay, yeah, yeah, we've got, we do that too. I actually put everything on the sandwich press.

Speaker 4 I will say this, before we get into the substance, and it's very serious, what's going on and the implications for right-wing politics and all of that.

Speaker 4 On the Toasty Maker, I've seen, you know, all of this analysis about how she's monstered the making of a steak steak and how outrageous it is.

Speaker 4 And out of that event, the most positive thing I saw was the positive use of the, of the, of the, you know, toasty maker. I think good on her for putting the steak on it.
What's wrong with that?

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, it's actually not even unique to Parliament. Famously, Labor Senator Helen Polley loves her little, I mean, it's a George Foreman, but it's basically a sandwich press, right?

Speaker 1 And she cooks everything on that.

Speaker 4 Because they get hot and you can do it quickly. Yeah.
Yeah. So look, I haven't got a problem with that myself.
And this this plot is not about stakes. It's about, well, steaky politics.

Speaker 4 Barnaby Joyce and this moment. This is just was, I have to just paint the picture, Claire, and get your thoughts.

Speaker 4 Do not forget that it was right after the Burker stunt, which was deeply offensive, obviously to Muslims, but also just

Speaker 4 to the Senate, to the parliamentary, you know, like it was, it was a stunt she'd done in 2017 that she repeated to try and get herself in the headlines, and it worked, that she had this dinner with Barnaby Joyce to

Speaker 4 create pictures that

Speaker 4 get her in the media headlines and for him too. What's it all about?

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, the interesting thing is it's not necessarily the case that she planned to do the Burker thing knowing that she had this dinner coming up.

Speaker 1 The Burke thing seems to have somewhat been a reaction, at least in Pauline's version of events, to her not being able to introduce the bill that she's previously tried to introduce in the Senate around banning the Burke and other face coverings.

Speaker 1 But the fact that Barnaby Joyce then turned up anyway is the thing.

Speaker 1 And before it even, well, before it was known that he was doing that, it's rare that you see, I think, Penny Wong, Matt Canavan, Fatima Payman, Raim Faruqi on a unity ticket.

Speaker 1 And to have had Barnaby Joyce come out and basically defend Pauline and, you you know, essentially try and pass off the criticism as a bit of hysteria says that he obviously was very aware of the decisions he was making and what it would look like to go and dine with her so soon after that incident.

Speaker 4 And it's fair to say for anyone who's watched him his whole career, and kind of I have, I mean, I remember when he came into the Senate, you know, because that's how long I've been around, that

Speaker 4 I will say that I think that the emotional kind of process that Barnaby Joyce has been on, and I know it's odd for me to use the word emotional, but I'm going to,

Speaker 4 I think he's become a little more radicalised and he's moved further to the sort of cultural right on these issues than he used to.

Speaker 4 He didn't really do these things or believe, defend these things when it came. He was more in the Matt Canavan school, don't you reckon? Like there has been a shift politically from him.

Speaker 1 Yes, I think there has. And I think it's a timely reminder that politicians are human and they are not immune to the same kinds of radicalizing forces.
I mean, Christmas is approaching.

Speaker 1 I'm sure plenty of people have someone that's going to be around that dinner table who's going to shock them with a shift in political views over the last few years.

Speaker 1 Politicians aren't immune to that, and that's clearly whether it has been part of this emotional processing of being removed from his previous very high positions of power, you know, the shocks that his personal life has gone through, and his feeling of being isolated and shoved out of a party that was, you know, so central.

Speaker 1 Like, he was as central to the Nationals as the Nationals were to him, which is why it's even more astonishing that we're probably barreling toward the end of the week where he's going to walk away from all of that.

Speaker 2 So, there's been some breaking news. Pauline Hansen has now been suspended from the Senate for the next seven days after a motion was raised by the Foreign Minister, actually, Penny Wong.

Speaker 2 That follows the stunt we've been talking about in relation to the Burker,

Speaker 2 which is pretty extraordinary. Seven days, like we haven't done that for

Speaker 2 a really long time.

Speaker 1 We're pouring back through the records, but it could be decades potentially since censure motions where someone is maybe not allowed in the Senate for the rest of the day, they happen.

Speaker 1 But seven days is quite significant. And I'm pretty sure that's seven sitting days.
So it's not calendar days. It will stretch into the new year.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's, she can't go on official delegations. Like, there are other sort of

Speaker 2 criteria that go with it. What was her reaction? Because you've just run to the press conference.
She held a press conference in the Senate courtyard after she was censured. What did she say?

Speaker 1 She was pretty measured in her manner. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Sometimes she can get really wobbly-voiced and quite emotional, but she was quite stoic and obviously very angry, but was very already kind of in that retail way, capitalising on this as something that essentially doesn't really bother her because it'll be the people of Queensland who will decide if she continues to serve in the Senate in a more more ongoing basis at the next election.

Speaker 1 And if anything, she just feels it speaks to this kind of almost victim complex thing she has going on where essentially, well,

Speaker 1 the Senate isn't letting me talk about the issues that I want to talk about. This is an extension of that.

Speaker 1 She was very quick to pivot it into something that is advantageous for her politically, to her base at least.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's, well, you can see the strategy she's using. And it's also kind of, I'm a tough guy, right?

Speaker 2 Like, I'm not hurt personally, but this is what the symbolism is that you've been shut down that's the way she'll frame it what's really interesting though that I really want to get from you is the way the coalition interacted with this.

Speaker 2 They didn't want her to have a seven-day ban. Is that right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, look

Speaker 1 they didn't back the censure motion with the exception of one Liberal senator, Andrew McLachlan, crossed the floor to vote with the majority of Labor, Greens and the rest of the crossbench on this.

Speaker 1 Look, complicating, kind of nuanced process issues. They were talking about how if there was going to be a censure motion, it should have happened yesterday at the time of the Burker incident.

Speaker 1 There was issues with the wording and some of the clauses around that it was about Pauline intending to do something, and you should only censure someone if they do something and word it accordingly.

Speaker 1 But I'm not sure that the technicality of all of that really

Speaker 1 is a political winner when there's such a cut-and-dry issue, as we've kind of discussed, of like a demonstrably offensive stunt.

Speaker 1 Getting into the weeds on parliamentary procedure is maybe not politically the smartest thing to do.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you'd think so. Look, obviously, they'll go out and defend their approach while also condemning the Burker move, because they have condemned.

Speaker 1 Oh, absolutely. They definitely are on a unity ticket there.
They are.

Speaker 2 But this stuff matters, the kind of consequences, how long, I mean, Labor is, and the others who supported it are sending a message about this behaviour.

Speaker 2 I mean, because it is quite punitive, if you want to call it that, action compared to what other people have faced. It is.

Speaker 4 Yeah, completely.

Speaker 2 Independently, that's what it is. Like, it hasn't happened for other stunts.

Speaker 1 No, and I think what was interesting hearing from Pauline Hanson just before in that press conference was she was being pressed on a number of fronts around, you know, her evidence basis for trying to, again, have the Burker ban debate.

Speaker 1 But interestingly, pushed on why now. Like, why has she done this now? Why has she worn this Burka again? Routineing history.

Speaker 2 What's the the sudden crisis in Burka wearing?

Speaker 1 Exactly. And I put it to her, you know, is this because the coalition is moving into the immigration space? And she said, no, that wasn't my thinking.

Speaker 1 The really it was a really interesting question from an SPS journalist who asked her, you know, why do this now? You did it seven years ago when you had four or five percent primary.

Speaker 1 Now you're almost you're in double digits. What are I being confused about?

Speaker 1 And she didn't really have a good answer other than that she just is doing her thing and this could end up being the undoing, right?

Speaker 1 We could be just seeing the peak of popularity of One Nation and then people start to dial into these sorts of activities and go, oh, actually, I'm not sure about that.

Speaker 2 I think it is, yeah, I've always thought it's a peak, like, and it's, of course, 18% in one poll, you know, when there's no election coming.

Speaker 2 Of course, it's not a real figure because it's a sentiment with no looming election.

Speaker 2 But, and it will clearly damage her with some people. But I still think she's got, you know, a base of support which will stick with her.
I mean, they're not going to reject her because of a burker.

Speaker 1 No, I think in the point she made about whether Queenslanders, you know, as a senator from there, are going to send her back to the Senate at the next election, it's pretty easy, I guess, to say yes.

Speaker 4 Look, I want to change the topic, if we can, to talk about something that you've actually been working on. And that's, you know, stories about where this gambling reform is going.

Speaker 4 People might recall, definitely, if you're listening to this podcast all the time, you'd know that it was now, what, was three years ago that Peter Murphy, who was, well, just a hands-down excellent member of parliament and sadly has died,

Speaker 4 tabled a report, which was a bipartisan report on gambling reform. The government has sat on its hands.
It says it's consulting.

Speaker 4 Clearly, it's been lobbied furiously from those who stand to gain from the continuation of gambling advertising and gambling.

Speaker 4 You've been looking into this. Where are things at, Claire?

Speaker 1 Well, the thing that I am really interested about at the moment is the politics of this, because the context for which we are now talking about Labor's ability to pass gambling reform is very different to where it was 12 months ago, 24 months ago.

Speaker 1 They have this whopping majority in the House.

Speaker 1 They have a mandate far larger than the one they had last time in which they have promised to do something about gambling reform to tackle advertising restrictions and there's also calls for you know the way it's regulated all of these issues And there doesn't really seem to be much changing.

Speaker 1 And it is starting to really annoy the caucus because there is widespread support for this reform, not just in the Labour Party, across the parliament. And the thing that

Speaker 1 really fascinated me is they took a little while, but they've established a parliamentary friends of gambling harm minimisation, which sounds like a bit of a snooze fest, but critically, parliamentary friends groups, which exist for any kind of issue you could think of under the sun, but they

Speaker 1 require a government co-chair. So they must have a government and a non-government co-chair to sort of lend them some legitimacy.
Finally, this group has managed to get Dr.

Speaker 1 Mike Freelander, a Western Sydney Labor MP, as the co-chair. He actually was previously a co-chair before this issue became quite so politically problematic for Labor.

Speaker 1 And he has come out and said that if there was a conscience vote on gambling ban, a ban of gambling ads, he thinks it would pass the parliament.

Speaker 1 Now, that is a very clear reflection on where he feels the caucus is at. And I think a very clear message to Anthony Albanese that they expect action.

Speaker 4 I think that's very true. But I'm going to add this kind of curveball into all of this.
I think that's right.

Speaker 4 On a perfect democratic day, a couple of things.

Speaker 4 Freelander can say that, but we know that the Labor Party generally is not a big fan on conscience votes.

Speaker 4 They certainly were in relation to abortion, gay marriage, is my recollection, too.

Speaker 4 So they do that. They would never do that on something like gambling.

Speaker 1 But I don't think that they're really, this isn't really about a push to have one. It is a signal to say, I am telling you what your party room thinks.

Speaker 1 And obviously, it is about saying the government needs to arrive at a position where we are all happy.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that's right. And

Speaker 4 the other point of him saying that is, you know, that we've got this during the caucus, so, you know, where all the Labour MPs hang out.

Speaker 4 But they are very timid, this caucus. And that is the broader story of this government.

Speaker 1 Oh, as a journalist, it's so annoying.

Speaker 4 Oh, understatement. Look, I, you know, one of my first ever jobs was reporting on the Howard government.

Speaker 4 And let me tell you, you know, I had a spreadsheet of the people who would talk out on different things, as we all did. I'm not like, yeah.

Speaker 4 And it's very hard with this government right i mean it's not a mistake that that you only hear ed husick often speaking out on things now he's a former minister that was you know clearly demoted and has an axe to grind but also i believe believes these things but you know he's he's kind of cranky i think with some of his treatment and that's fair enough uh i would be too if i was him i can tell you

Speaker 4 But you don't hear a lot of them speaking out. Now, there is a broader conversation going on all the time in this building, isn't there, about how long will this last?

Speaker 4 You You know, will they muscle up? And you can read lots of essays and analysis.

Speaker 4 People like Sean Kelly and others talk about the fact that the left is they've got a left-wing prime minister and a dominantly left-wing caucus, they have locked in behind the prime minister.

Speaker 4 You don't hear a lot of dissent. But, you know, that's where something like gambling, they might think this, but are they willing to fight for it?

Speaker 1 I completely agree with that. And I think what is interesting is

Speaker 1 I think we're at probably the worst point for that kind of overly differential attitude toward the Prime Minister because in part there's been this huge intake of the class of 2025.

Speaker 1 They're six months into the job. A lot of them feel probably not incorrectly that they owe Anthony Albanese their seat in Parliament.

Speaker 1 It's not dissimilar to how things started in 2019 immediately after Scott Morrison where a lot of the people that held onto their seats or picked up seats were very loyal to that.

Speaker 1 It unravelled quite quickly for Scott Morrison. I don't think it's going to unravel to to that extent for Anthony Albanese.

Speaker 1 He is a creature of the left.

Speaker 1 They do not like non-binding votes, but they are brawlers. And Anthony Albanese is famously like a caucus brawler and a party.

Speaker 1 Are they brawlers? Behind the scenes, I think they are. They're brawling? Not now.
Not now. Historically.
Because they've always been in the minority, right?

Speaker 4 Now they've got control. And that's why, so we're recording this on a Tuesday.
Tell everyone how the sausage is made.

Speaker 4 Tuesday, there's the caucus meeting, there's a party party room meeting for the coalition, and then you get a report back.

Speaker 4 And we got the report back from a government spokesperson about what happened in that meeting.

Speaker 4 And, you know, the Prime Minister don't, he gave a very, very, I think, like he was hitting the nail on the head there with his message to his caucus. He thanked them.
Smart move.

Speaker 4 For the honour of leading them. Honour of leading them.
And now, so that was respectful to them, but it was also a bit of a, you know, I'm trying to do this and to hold on to this.

Speaker 4 Because he also said, we want to make Labour, reflecting on Gough Whitlam's legacy, all of that, we want to make Labor the natural party of government. Federally, Labour has struggled on that front.

Speaker 4 Obviously, there was the very successful Hawke Keating years, but since it's been a struggle. So that's the broader message he's sending.
And I don't think that's an accidental message.

Speaker 4 It is on these issues. Like

Speaker 4 I reckon it's coded. Like the subtitle, this is very much analysis.
I do not have that he says this. but guys,

Speaker 4 keep it in check. We don't want to be a rabble.
We don't want lots of dissent. We want to keep governing.
Don't you reckon?

Speaker 1 I think that's a big part of it. The interesting thing will be, though, if that breeds the kind of complacency or that overly cautious attitude that really

Speaker 1 exposes them again on their progressive flank, whether it's from the Greens or like I really feel that that independent hill movement has nowhere to grow but into currently Labor-held city seats.

Speaker 1 So it may keep them in government for a long time, but it may not bring the kind of innovation and renewal and all of those kinds of push-and-pull things that keep a political party fresh and connected with the electorate.

Speaker 4 Well, I know lots of Labor MPs

Speaker 4 who are members of the caucus listen to this podcast. So, you know, guys, muscle up.
Okay, I've got another point to just mention.

Speaker 4 So there's going to be ongoing shenanigans this week over the EPBC Act, which is the environment laws.

Speaker 4 You know, I'll have Amari Watt on a little later, who's the Environment Minister, see where it's at. Susanly interesting intervention, right? Sort of,

Speaker 4 you know, I don't know, pouring a bit of cold water on the coalition's

Speaker 4 interest in doing a deal here. She said basically she's rejected Murray Watt's offer of a deal on these reforms, accusing him of mismanaging the issue, failing to deliver on her key demands.

Speaker 4 Now, I know it's still a lot of brinkmanship and who's going to blink first,

Speaker 4 but it's interesting to see if Murray Watt may have overplayed his hand by going a little too hard on the this will happen on Friday and

Speaker 4 maybe it won't.

Speaker 1 Well, I mean in the context that Labor MPs in the lower house have been told to stick around in Canberra for an extra day, which I'm sure they loved,

Speaker 1 to pass this soon-to-be-amended bill that will sail through the Senate, even that kind of messaging, I think, is indicative that the government's thinking is not really where the coalition or the the greens are at and I also think there's been a lot of selective interpretation of the messaging coming out of both of those you know options to make a deal that just because the coalition were coming to the table with a list of demands that list very clearly came with a caveat at the top that said only if you accept all of these will we look to do a deal obviously the government has moved on some but it was a bit of selective hearing i think or overly ambitious in thinking that they could just sail through with giving them a little rather than everything they're asking for.

Speaker 1 But I do think, you know, speaking of Susan and the weeks and months that she has had, she is not really in a position, I think, at the moment to be seen to be making any kind of captain's call or close enough is good enough.

Speaker 1 So I think there has to be some appreciation of on this particular, at this time, she probably is going to be expecting a bit more than you ordinarily would seek to get out of a negotiation like this.

Speaker 4 Look, you know, it's not an easy time for Susan Lee. It's obvious, right? No.

Speaker 1 Understatement of the year. Yes.

Speaker 4 We've had the party room meeting.

Speaker 4 That's where these things can unfold pretty quickly where you get rolled. She didn't get rolled today, and there's a reason for that.
They're not going to roll her this year.

Speaker 1 Which they kind of said the whole time. The rule in politics is you always go when you have the numbers.
And no one ever had the numbers, and maybe everyone lost sight of that a little bit.

Speaker 4 What happened, like, in a a very specific way, is that

Speaker 4 some of the key conservatives who are powerful ones,

Speaker 4 they haven't shifted. But they haven't shifted because they've decided they want to go to the election with her.
And I want to be clear about this because they will, I believe, still shift.

Speaker 4 They will still shift. And it's not just a vibe and a feeling.
I have been told they will shift. Okay.

Speaker 4 So. It's about when they want to shift, the preconditions, how bad it gets, you know, looking like they've created, and this

Speaker 4 says a lot about some people and the way politics works and why you couldn't pay me to ever run, right? Because it's just horrific. It's kind of like

Speaker 4 they don't want to have too much blood on their hands.

Speaker 1 Yes, they need to. I think a lot of the noise of the last couple of weeks in particular, and I don't know how many Liberal Party room members listen to this, but maybe

Speaker 1 could heed this message.

Speaker 1 There's been some manipulation of, dare I say, a few useful idiots in that party room where if you look at who was genuinely in the hot seat to potentially take over from Susan Lee, their acolytes have been quite happy to stir up other

Speaker 1 avenues in the party to generate a sense of chaos. I think at one point we were talking about, well, the moderates are clearly going to come for Susan.

Speaker 1 You know, they're the only currently viable moderate leaning option for them.

Speaker 1 And I think that a lot of the noise was really just, oh, well, you know, if someone else does it, that's it, all the better for us. We're completely hands-free.

Speaker 1 But the actual considered, this is it, we are coming for Susan, yeah, I agree. It's coming, but it was never going to happen this side of Christmas.

Speaker 4 Yeah, unless there was, like, what I was told by people who matter is if there was some kind of seismic event.

Speaker 4 So a moderate, which they wouldn't have predicted, has, you know, had quit the front bench, which would have led to a domino effect. That's how politics often works.
But that didn't happen.

Speaker 4 Tim Wilson hasn't resigned. Andrew Bragg hasn't resigned.
So they've taken a different road.

Speaker 4 And that means that

Speaker 4 she's more solid. That's it for politics now today.

Speaker 1 Thanks for joining me, Claire. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 4 And tomorrow, David Spears will join me on the podcast. We're going to chat about the latest on the EPBC Act.
We'll make it interesting, don't worry. Other political developments too.

Speaker 4 If you have a question, you can send it to the partyroom at abc.net.au. A voice note would be good.
Fran and I will answer it because she's back on Thursday. See ya.