The Game Theory of Reality TV (with Survivor’s Boston Rob)

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Pushkin

Welcome back to Risky Business.

I'm Maria Konikova.

Nate is out today, but we are joined in his stead by a very very special guest, a reality TV legend, the only person to appear on Survivor six times,

five times as a contestant, one time as a winner, although I would say twice as a winner because even the time that he lost, he met his future wife and they've now been married for over 20 years, so that to me counts as a win.

He's also been on The Amazing Race, Traders, and Deal or No Deal Island.

And Rob is a fellow poker player.

He's known as a master strategist who blends cutthroat gameplay with irresistible social instincts.

Robert Mariano, aka Boston, Rob.

Welcome to the show, Rob.

Thank you so much, Maria.

I'm a huge fan as well.

I've been following your journey for the last few years.

I actually came across your book, and I know formally we've never really interacted,

but I'm looking forward to it at some point here in the future.

Yeah, likewise, likewise.

Oh, and on a more personal note, Rob, I am a fellow Bostonian, though I grew up in the suburbs, not in the city.

Nice.

I'm not a true Bostonian.

Everyone's like, you don't have an accent.

I was like, yeah, I lived in the suburbs.

Sorry.

And you and I both studied psychology in college in Boston.

So you went in a different direction with psychology, but we're both using it, I think, in very

interactive and interesting ways.

So let's start at the beginning of your journey, if that's okay with you.

How do you get from, you know, a psych major at BU to survivor and to kind of the career that came to define you?

So it's it's kind of a wild Dorian journey, but like actually I went to Boston University five years, graduated with a degree in psychology and made my parents really proud and went to go work in construction because I love to work with my hands.

I started off as a laborer for a stonemasonry company out in Framingham.

And

it just so happened that Survivor had just started.

It was the year 2000, and it was the biggest hit, and it was on TV.

And I had a girlfriend at the time who loved the show and wanted me to watch it.

And I remember one day after work, we're watching the show, and there was a kid that was on it.

His name was Colby.

It was the second season.

He was like the all-American guy, and he was out there, and he was doing the challenges and doing a great job.

I remember sitting on my couch with my dad being like, I would kick his ass.

And my dad was just like, oh, yeah, you think you could do it?

Why don't you try?

So I was like, all right, maybe I will, you know.

So I sent in the application.

One thing led to another.

Who could have like, I would have never predicted 25 years later, you know, the journey that it's taken me on.

But I think

I didn't actually use my psychology degree in the traditional way, but I kind of did use it, you know, through reality TV and poker and all these other competition games.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's funny.

So you kind of started, so let's put this in poker terms.

You started as the chat pro, right?

Who's watching the professionals play on stream and you're like, oh, I know how to play that hand so much better.

And most chat bros, you know, they'd suck, right?

If you actually put them on the lights, you were the one who actually was like, you know what, I could do better.

And you went and you kicked their ass.

So you actually did.

I mean, it was not a, it took a little bit of time, but like, I understood the meta of the game kind of before everybody else, even like the producers, I understood like not only the math of it, but the psychology behind it.

And I think that's like really important in understanding these

games that include not only the physical aspect, but the social and the strategic aspects as well.

And in that respect, I feel like I was a little bit ahead of

my peers from the beginning.

For sure, for sure.

Well, that's what interests me about you and about this is kind of the game theoretic aspect of it, right?

Kind of the meta strategy behind it.

So, when you were watching, what was it, you know, what was your kind of big aha insight where you were like, okay, I know what game this is and I know how to play it strategically on a higher level?

Because it's not like you were, were, oh, you know, I'm the best at survivor skills, right?

Or something like that.

You understood kind of the actual mechanics of the game.

So can you talk me through a little bit about how you thought about it back then?

And then I'd love to kind of talk through the evolution, you know, 25 years later.

Of course.

Yeah.

So in the beginning, you know, the game was fairly new and it was two tribes of people on an island and there was a survival aspect where you had to forage for your food and everything.

But beyond the survival aspect of it, even though the name of the show is Survivor, there's a strategic aspect where whoever wins the challenge, the person that loses their team has to vote someone out.

So, traditionally, up until the point where I played the first time, the first three seasons had gone by.

My first season was the fourth season.

The first three, they tended to keep the strong athletic players because they felt that, you know, they would help to provide for the team, the strength, and the challenge.

And I was kind of like the first one to realize it didn't matter how strong the team was.

I needed people that I could control like chess pieces in order to get myself further.

Because like the game, even though on the surface it looks like it's a team game, it's an individual game.

The entire game is an individual game.

So what was different was like in the beginning, there was a guy, his name was Hunter this first season, and he was the all-American Colby kind of guy, the fighter pilot, the strength guy, the guy with the muscles, the voice of reason.

He probably went to an Ivy League school.

He was a pilot.

And

I

just said to myself, this guy's on my team.

Everybody's listening to him.

If I hide in the shadows behind him, eventually it'll get to the point where too many of people that I can become

aligned with won't be there for me to get the numbers.

So why not just get him out early?

And nobody saw it, you know, and I knew by targeting him, I could gain respect and loyalty from other people in my tribe and use that strength moving forward.

Now, ultimately, that first season, there was a twist that happened.

And sometimes this is a lot like poker too.

Sometimes things happen throughout the course of your tournament or your game that you can't control.

And there's nothing you can do about it.

And it was a twist where they decided to switch the tribes.

So when they did so, I got put on another tribe and my numbers were, I didn't have the strength and alliance numbers.

So things kind of, you know, went awry and I wasn't able to execute all the way through that first season.

But I understood the bigger picture.

And

I made myself a promise after that first season that if I ever got an opportunity to go back and play again,

you know, because you have to understand, I was also 25 years old.

I was a kid from Boston.

I went to an island in the middle of the South Pacific in the middle of the winter, and there's a lot of girls running around in bikinis and everything else.

So I was distracted a little bit, also.

But I made myself the promise that if I went back, that I would execute on the correct game play.

And I guess I chased a bikini that season too, which ultimately ended up being my wife.

But

I did.

So, I mean, specifically, I don't think there's one thing.

I think I just understood the overall

better than my competitors.

Well, I think there's a really key insight in there that you mentioned right at the beginning, which is kind of a misunderstanding of what game you're playing, right?

So if people think that they're playing a cooperative game, that's very different from if you realize that you're playing kind of something that is a little bit more zero sum, right?

At the end, there is only one survivor and that's what you're

what you're gunning for.

And so.

I'm interested though, because obviously you need to see some of it in positive sum terms, right, to kind of build those alliances and kind of get people to trust you.

How do you balance that, right, in your mind, knowing that at the end you're playing just for yourself and it's an individual game, and yet you need to kind of have those cooperative elements along the way?

How do you kind of, how do you square that circle and how do you kind of make it work for yourself?

Yeah, so as I played different seasons and as my game evolved, the strategy also evolved, right?

You got to remember, I didn't win the first time I played.

I didn't win the second time.

It took me four times.

I eventually won, but I never quit and I never gave up.

Now, you can make the argument, you know, I did win the second time because I got to the end with my wife and we figured out a way to, you know, game the system a little bit.

But I think different people need to be treated differently in terms of how to quote unquote manipulate them.

Different people are motivated by different things.

If you want to understand how to get someone to do something, you have to understand what motivates them and what drives them.

You know, almost all people are emotional to a certain level, but some people respond more to logic.

Some people are ego-based.

You know, they're driven by their ego.

So different people, I think the skill that I possess is being able to accurately identify which,

what I need to be for each person and who needs what and give them what they need so that I'm able to build trust and

do it in a way that they don't realize I'm doing it.

And when I'm able to, then, you know, you eat and they eat out of your hands and you do what you need to do.

And I think some of that is intuitive and some of it is learned.

I mean, I don't think you can go to school and study psychology and just know this.

I think a lot of my background growing up in Boston, you know, coming from a street smart background and understanding people

is what has helped me more than it helps other people.

Additionally, I think, you know, certain people

are able

to adapt to their situation and have more self-awareness than others.

I think those are the two skill sets which reign supreme, not only in survivor and competitive reality, but also in poker, right?

It's a little bit philosophical by nature.

It's not who I think I am.

It's not who you think I am.

It's who I think you think I am.

And that literally translates into

Are you accurate about what your opponent thinks about you?

And you have to be able to

know it and to know it to a certainty to be able to execute on it in order to manipulate without them knowing.

I mean, the easiest way to tell if someone's lying to you, right, is ask them a question you already know the answer to and see how they respond.

So simple, right?

And

you set these little traps, you do it, and then it becomes second nature.

The other thing I think that helps me a lot is I'm okay with confrontation.

Like on traders, I loved the roundtable.

I loved going to battle.

Other people feared it, you know, and like, you know, like at the poker table, you got to be a killer, right?

And you, you have to have that aggression.

Aggression

100% is dominant over being passive.

If you sit there and wait for the game to come to you, sometimes you'll win.

Sometimes, like, people win survivor by letting the game come to them.

But for the most part, you're going to get close and you're going to taste it, but you're not going to get that victory as much as if you're aggressive.

And I'm not afraid to be aggressive.

I know when I need to take the shot, and a lot of that comes with experience.

But, like, I also know,

you know,

when to not worry about stuff you can't do anything about.

Like, twists in in the game.

A long time ago, there was a poker show on TV called Poker After Dark.

And Doyle Brunson did the open monologue.

And I remember he said,

poker is not about winning or losing.

It's about making the correct decision.

There's a lot of truth in that.

And there's a lot of truth in reality TV competition about making the correct decision and not worrying about what you can't do anything about.

So that's always kind of been my philosophy.

And it's like, it's not like I knew everything from the beginning, Maria, but like over time, I've learned it and now I know it as fact, you know?

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

No, a lot, a lot of what you're saying rings true for the poker player.

Some of what you're saying rings true.

It's very funny.

There's a thin line between persuasion in this setting and con artists.

So my second book was about confidence men, right?

People who trick people for a living.

And obviously the main difference is when you do it in real life, it's nasty, right?

If you're doing it in a game, it's part of gameplay, right?

It's part of it.

There's

a lot of parallels to relationships as well.

And you got to remember, survivor is a game of relationships, especially where you vote the people off.

And then after you vote them off, you have to ask them to vote for you in the end.

So, usually, the way people win are one of two ways: either A,

they're too mad at the other person, right?

And you're the lesser of the two evils, or, you know, you've figured out a way to like gain their trust in some way and they're the bigger person.

But for the most part, they run parallel: the relationships and, you know, psychology and manipulation.

We're going to take a quick break and then more on strategy and game theory with Boston Robb.

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Your ring your way.

It seems like your psychology background has actually served you remarkably well, right?

Like that that's actually probably the biggest tool that you have.

And in this particular case, this is something that poker doesn't have, but that you've alluded to

multiple times, is also attention, right?

And the ability to manipulate people's attention.

And I think that that's really interesting because, you know, that is such a crucial skill, I think, in the present day when there are so many things vying for attention.

How do you actually influence people to pay attention, right, to what you you want them to pay attention to and not to what they might be gravitating to in the moment, like you.

So, in order for me to figure out how I get somebody to pay attention to someone or something,

I have to do it in a way that they're interested in it or

what would benefit them.

So, every story you tell when you're trying to push a theory one way or another, or a alliance, or a vote, or something you have to do it through their eyes a lot of people look singularly at a problem and they don't see it through their opponent's eyes i think that's the biggest key to being able to do well in poker you're supposed to think about what would they think right what would my opponent think i'm doing in this spot so you have to see the game through their eyes and what would benefit them i can't propose a theory to you or a vote to you if it doesn't make sense to you.

If I want to get someone, get rid of somebody that's in your alliance, I have to either A, create distrust in your mind, like that person came to me, was coming to me to get you out, or B, like, listen, I know you're aligned with her, but we have this other thing here.

And if you come with this, I promise we're going here.

And you have to actually believe it.

So, whatever theory I propose to you, it has to be good in your mind.

And

I don't think a lot of people are able to see the game through what's best for your opponent.

I think that that's a crucial skill to have in any game, including poker, and also the self-awareness to know kind of what is your image to this particular person, right?

Not just what is your image at the table, but how does this person perceive you.

I think that that is an absolutely crucial insight.

You know, something that I learned from my mentor, Eric Seidel, when I'd ask him,

how would you play this spot, right?

Like, how would you play this hand?

He said, that's the wrong question because I'm not you.

Yes.

Right.

And so for me, this spot isn't the same as this exact same spot is for you.

If I am in your seat with the same cards and the same action, it's a different spot because I'm a different person.

I'm a different player.

And people are thinking about me differently.

Their strategy is different.

Their response is different.

I can get away with some things you can't get away with, you can get away with some things I can't get away with, right?

Different things look different coming from the two of us, and so that's how you have to think about not how do you play this spot.

And actually, most players, even very good ones, not the best ones, but like solid ones, don't go that extra step.

And they just look at, you know, the solver computerized output.

This is how you play this spot, not realizing that in live poker, that doesn't exist.

That's why GTO is not like, is not the end-all, be-all.

And that's true for in survivor and stuff, too.

What may be the correct decision right now might not be the correct decision five minutes from now because your emotional state may have changed.

There may be something going on where this is the move you would have made.

This would have made the most sense to you now.

But because XYZ happened, all of a sudden that's not true anymore.

Like the biggest example of that I can give you is

a lot of times when someone's blindsided on a vote at tribal council, meaning they were left out of the vote, they come back

to camp that night.

That is a super emotional and vulnerable time for them.

And I know, because I've had a lot of experience, knowing that in that moment, depending on how I treat that person, I can either 100% get them with me for the rest of the game, or I can alienate them for the rest of the game.

I did it with Andrea Belke in Redemption Island, the season I won.

We ended up blindsiding her island boyfriend, Matt.

And she came back and she had no idea where to go.

This way, this way, this way.

Like she had no idea and she felt super vulnerable.

But I went to her and I was like, listen, I know that you were tight with Matt, but I just got to tell you, we couldn't tell you about what was happening because we knew if you did, that you'd react emotionally to it.

But I promise you, he wasn't good for your game.

He wasn't good for my game.

He wasn't good for anyone.

I still want to work with you.

I still want to be in your alliance.

And I like, you know, so being the comfort person, even though she just had that happen, and now being able to, for the next three or four, five votes in the row, build trust with her to show that that's actually true, you know, versus the other way, she comes back, she's super vulnerable, we turn everybody against her.

I mean, it's a super manipulative game, right?

If you know, if you understand it, and not everybody out there is thinking on that same level, but some people are.

So the people that are, like yourself, I can tell you're super in tune, you understand the psychology, you understand the gameplay.

I would size you up real quick and either work with you or get get rid of you right away.

Depending on whether or not I felt like I could trust you and you'd work with me, or if you were going to be threatening to me, you know, that's how.

That's what we do at the poker table.

That's what you do as soon as you hit the island every time.

You have to make judgments about people that you really don't know anything about.

So you look at things beyond what there's coming out of their mouth.

You look at their body language, their actions, because I truly believe the actions speak louder than words every time, you know?

Yeah, for sure.

And it's, it's interesting because, you know, you talk about building trust.

And in that moment, do you actually have to kind of believe you're building trust even if you know, like at the end, you're going to betray her, right?

That you're doing it strategically?

Well, I mean, look at it.

Like you said, we all signed up for the same game.

We all know one person's going to win.

So eventually everybody's going to build trust except for the one person you're sitting there at the end with.

But here's the thing.

If you understand the game on a basic level, you know

when you sit at the end, you want to sit at the end with two people that you can beat.

Nobody wants to sit at the end about the person that's going to be a coin flip.

You know, you want somebody that you're 80-20.

You got Aces and they got kings and you want to be a huge favorite at the end.

So

like in a way.

No, it's really interesting because, you know, I'm just thinking about it like in poker terms again.

Like if you're at a final table and there's like there are two recreational players and like some very good players, you're rooting for the recreational players, right?

Because you want them to have the chips because you want to be against them at the end.

You want to be a favorite against them at the end.

And you don't want one of the great players to win.

Who you want to win changes.

Obviously, you know, in poker, it's different in the sense that you can't force them to get the chips.

Like it

depends on what happens.

But in your mind, you can root for their success because it's always better to be heads up against the fish than to be heads up against the crusher.

There's a lot of luck in all of the games as well.

And I think that's often understated.

You know,

the one thing about me and the way I play is I understand the parameters.

I understand the rules.

I understand what I'm signing up for before I play.

This is the game.

Only one person's going to win.

So when it's over,

I've always been like a good sport.

I'll shake your hand.

It's good.

I won.

I lost.

I did my best.

And that's all you can do.

That's such a great attitude.

Is that kind of, would you say that that's kind of the secret?

Or are there other things to your kind of resilience and your ability to kind of come back after you've lost, right?

As you said, it took you four times to come back.

And a lot of people would just say, screw this, right?

Like, I'm done being humiliated on TV.

How do you, you know, mentally, is it just kind of enough to say, you know, I've been playing my best and I keep doing better and I'll just keep preparing?

Is that how you frame it?

Or do you have kind of other tricks for dealing with when you lose and when you know it when it doesn't go your way, even though your strategy seemed to be solid?

Yeah.

I think a lot of it has to do with how I was raised, you know, like growing up in Boston, nobody's patting you on the back.

You know, you didn't, you don't win.

Get in there, kid, and fight again.

You know, get up.

You get knocked down.

Get up.

You got to be tough.

My parents raised me to be resilient.

And, you know, like I went out there the first time and I played my heart out, but I was also not as focused.

And then, like, I realized, oh man, I missed a big opportunity.

Luckily, I made enough of an impact that I was given the opportunity to come back and play again.

So I think, you know, like it's the same skill set and lessons I try to teach my own kids now.

And that is like, if you want something, you have to fight for it.

And you have to do your best.

And if you do your best, if you really do, and the only person that knows if they do their best is themselves.

And if you do do your best, that's all you can do.

You can be proud of yourself.

So like with traders, like I knew I was up against it.

They did me no favors the way they started the game.

They put me on a pedestal.

Like I have a target anyway.

And at first, I'm like, oh, man, like, this is going to be really hard.

It's like, yeah, but it's going to be really hard.

And the truth is, like, I

love the challenge.

And I feel like, I don't know, it's like a sickness or whatever, but I do better under pressure.

Like, a lot of people don't like the pressure.

I need the pressure.

Like, I do.

I need it to perform.

That's really interesting because I was actually going to ask you about kind of your mental game and how you maintain your cool under, you know, under pressure, right, in those lights.

Because what I studied so for my graduate degree in psychology, I actually studied hot decision making, right?

Decision making under emotional conditions, and

which is, it tells you a lot about a person and it's very different, right, from decision-making when you have lots of time.

And there are, there is a subset of person who performs really well, right, under kind of under the lights, under those hot conditions.

It's a really interesting skill.

And I'm curious, do you feel like you've improved at that?

Or that's something that you've just always been good at?

I just think, like, in general, as time goes on, people get more life experience.

So, once you have more life experience, once you're adept at doing this stuff, and it's like you playing poker against a bunch of people, like, yes, there's a chance they could get super lucky and win.

It's unlikely over the course of an entire tournament that they'll beat you because, like, you have the time to be able to execute the correct moves and you're going to catch them out there with two pair when you have a set or whatever it is, like

you know enough not to put your whole game at risk against a bunch of amateurs because you'll be able to find the spots, right?

So as time has gone by, I understand the nuances of not only the competition aspect, but the production aspect too, like the time it takes, how long it takes to do this, like when you have to make a move.

One of the biggest mistakes I see time and time again with poker players that try to translate to reality TV competition, it's like when you're playing a tournament and trying to win the tournament in the first level.

Like they play too good, too fast, like they got something to prove.

There's no way you can't win.

You're playing a four-day tournament.

You got to last four days to be able to win.

So I don't care how great your spot is in level two.

Someone puts you to the test, like you have to ask if it's not a rebuy tournament, is it worth the risk versus reward?

And I think that's a lot of

what I'm able to bring to the table when it comes to these competitions is being able to balance and understanding the risk versus the reward versus someone that's never done it before.

They don't

have that experience.

Yeah.

No, that's, I think that's an absolutely crucial skill.

Um, and in poker, you know, knowing picking those spots is incredibly important.

And, you know, sometimes you find yourself struggling with it because you really want to take the spot.

And like, you have two people in your head talking, being like, no, like, don't do it.

Especially, you know, if it's not a rebuy tournament, you do have to think, is it worth it?

Even if it's a rebuy tournament, you know, there's an element of luck.

And I think that we can translate this somewhat to reality TV.

How's your table draw, right?

Who are the other people at your table?

There might be some tables of crushers, and you're at a table with all amateurs, right?

And you think about, if I take this spot right now and I bust, I'm going to rebuy onto a different table.

And my EV is going to go down because my EV at this table is much higher.

It's like the first season of Traders, right?

I'm playing against a field of inexperienced players.

And instead, I might get you at my table next time around, right?

And be in a much worse situation.

And so sometimes emotion or the pressure or whatever it is gets the better of you.

And you take a spot, even though technically it's plus EV, it's minus EV in the long term because the EV isn't just the math, right?

Being able to recognize that is super important because there are also the opposite is true.

So like, to me, sometimes there's an opportunity to take a spot where it's going to make all the difference, But other people are fearful of taking that spot.

And I've seen it time and time again in Survivor where this is your moment.

Your moment isn't at the final three.

Your moment is at six.

And you got to do something now.

But you know, if you do what you make this move that you have to make now, it's going to set you up to win.

Where if you don't, the best you're going to do is second or third.

You might get to the end, but you lose it.

So I think knowing when to take the shot

is

the most important.

Like you have to, you can't be afraid.

I've always said to me, it doesn't matter if I finish seventh or tenth or fourteenth or second.

I'm playing to win.

So you have to set yourself up to win.

With the Bob the Drag queen stuff, people say like, yeah, he could have made it early.

Didn't have to make that move so early.

Maybe I didn't.

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But in my mind, at the time, that was a correct decision.

And being able to know when it is, even if you're fearful of it and execute on it, is imperative.

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It's funny, you know, now that I think about it, because I was like, oh, you know,

I don't do a lot of the stuff that, you know, Rob does on reality TV.

But now that I think about it, I actually talk to players much more than other people people do at the table, both because I'm friendly and, you know, I want to be a welcoming, good ambassador, but they also give me very valuable information because they'll tell me, oh, you know, this is my wife's birthday present to me to be in this tournament.

And like, this is my one tournament of kind of, and I'm really excited versus, you know, oh my God, you know, tournament number 20.

And right away, you know how important it is for them, right?

What the stakes are.

It's important to know that.

On the beach, we do that in the downtime where we learn about the people their families everything you know i've been working a lot with chance corneth over the last few years and he's like a huge proponent of you make a day two you look up the people you find out their stats you learn about them as much as you can yes so it's not like i think poker has moved away from the social element as much in terms of like there's not as much chattiness and conversations at the table at the higher stakes anymore.

I mean, you still find it in like the local like small rec games and stuff.

So you have to be able, be willing to put in the extra work to do that.

And what you're saying, like, that's unbelievable.

Like you're doing recon on your opponent.

You have to do it in the moment when you can.

And yes, absolutely.

I think it's a huge, you're just leaving money on the table if you don't take the time to research your table mates from day two on.

And a lot of times people don't, right?

They don't look up their seat draw or they're lazy or they're tired because you played till, you know, 1 a.m.

And you want to maximize your sleep.

You don't want to take that hour or however long it takes, but it's always worth it.

I, you know, every single time because you learn so much.

And that's you become obsessive about it.

So let me ask you a question because you went from journalist to poker player.

Like, do you think there's a point where it becomes too encompassing?

Because my relationship with poker has been like this over the last, you know, my whole life, really.

I love it.

I have time.

I want to play.

I want to do it.

I'm into it.

But at some point, it's like when I hear about like the EV of sleeping in this hotel or that hotel, like it becomes like, I'm like, okay, I'm going to play a tournament that costs 10,000.

I'm going to sleep in a good hotel.

I'm going to order room service.

Like, you know, the lifestyle itself, it can become

too encompassing where every decision outside of that becomes about it.

Do you find yourself falling into that?

No, I mean, I try to maintain balance because it isn't, you know, my full-time career.

Like I'm working on my next book right now.

I have this podcast.

I have, you know,

I write a weekly sub stack.

Like I'm working on a bunch of screen projects.

So I have a lot of other things going on at the same time.

So I think that helps me kind of maintain perspective.

And for me, I try to kind of think of poker as something that I love that teaches me a lot about decision making and that's constantly helping, right?

Because because it's still i think it is still teaching me things about myself about the decision-making process and i'm still evolving as a thinker in ways that help outside of the poker world so i feel like it's still giving a lot to me and i think that it's a game that is incredibly powerful for other people, right?

I want it to be a popular game because I think it can help, right?

I want you to teach your daughters poker because I think it would help make them smarter, kind of better players, right at life right better yeah of course it does it does like poker is a game that's super relevant in the business world in negotiating in understanding discipline there's so many different attributes that the game helps in life absolutely at the same time it has a horrible reputation it does i know from the world of television like anytime i try to bring up any project that includes it it has this stigma attached to it.

And I think it's because, and you can tell me why you think, but like

there are lots of great things about the game of poker, but there are some people that ruin it for everyone else in terms of collusion, cheating,

real-time assistance, all these different other things that involve in it.

And then when people hear that, they don't want anything to do with it.

Because let's face it, on a basic level, everybody understands risk versus reward.

Smart people invest in the stock market.

Some people are buying lottery tickets.

People are betting on football games with their friends.

What is it about poker that gives it such a bad connotation?

So I think it's actually kind of historical.

And I think that it comes from kind of a puritanical kind of background to American culture where they bucket it in with vice, right?

They see it as kind of a casino casino game where it's not, right?

I always try to explain to people that it's actually different from every other game in a casino because every game in a casino is gambling and poker at the end is a skill game with an element of luck because in poker, you can win holding the worst hand and you can lose holding the best hand.

And that's the definition of skill.

Whereas in any other game in the casino, you have to have the best of it, right?

You can't beat the house if you don't have the best hand, right?

It's just kind of their strategy, of course, but that's kind of how how the chips fall,

how the ball rolls, how the cards fall.

They have a built-in edge, obviously, that makes it, you know, negative easy.

Exactly.

But poker.

So what needs to happen?

Does it need to come out of the casino elevator?

So I think that that's part of it, but I think also having good spokespeople for it who try to explain to people that what it actually is and what it can actually bring is part of the part of the journey.

But it's an uphill battle, and it's one that, you know, with the biggest bluff, I tried to fight.

I was kind of the beginning of it.

And I continue to do it.

My next book, you know, to your point about kind of the negative elements in poker, I think that's also a factor.

My next book is about cheating in games.

And so, because I actually am a firm believer that sunlight, you know, is the best disinfectant.

That's actually a very good saying

because it makes the game stronger and better if people know that cheaters are held accountable, that this kind of thing is actually frowned upon, that it's not an accepted part of the game, and that the game, you know, that

you'll be safe because the game cares, right?

And it will.

Yeah, and every other aspect of life, if you cheat, there are consequences.

Exactly, exactly.

And I'm not just writing about poker.

I'm writing about all games.

And I think that, you know, that's the reason I'm interested in it is kind of the life applicability, right?

Because all of life is kind of a game, if you think about it, with rules.

We live in a society that has rules

and

you live by those rules and when the rules start changing or people don't get punished for breaking the rules you know that's eyebrow raising and concerning the problem is sometimes the rules are not so well defined right in in a game like poker where you're rewarded for pushing the edge it's like what is acceptable what isn't acceptable and i'm not talking about like what beats what or whether you use something or not but like you know a lot of areas

are gray and sometimes things are frowned upon where other ways it's considered, you know, they're applauded for their outside the box thinking.

Absolutely.

So, so it's, you know, the difference in sportsmanship versus gamesmanship, right?

So are you a good sportsman?

And sometimes gamesmanship flies in the face of that.

And there are areas of gray, right?

Shades of gray, angle shooting and poker, for instance.

And, you know, what I say is I hate it and I hate angle shooters, but change the rules if you actually want to punish them because when they're not breaking the rules, they're technically still within the rules of the game.

I personally

wouldn't do it and really look down on it, but you can't do anything, right, if it's within the rules.

I'm a strong proponent of whatever you can do within the context of the game.

I've done it on the amazing race.

I use their own rules against them with the meat-eating challenge and understanding what the penalty was, and then knowing that if I got other teams to also quit the challenge, that I would still be ahead.

And they're scratching their heads and they're mad on the sidelines.

And it's like, I think maybe after they change the rules, but like they're, you know, at one point, I bribed a bus driver.

I took a collection of people's money and bribed them with their money and didn't put my own in, but I didn't say I was going to.

But it's funny.

So you're, you're a very good gamesman as well, right?

So, so it's a, it's a, it's a really interesting thing.

I mean, some of the best athletes are very good at gamesmanship, right?

I've written about, and he'll go in my book, Tiger Woods, for instance, you know, he's had some really eyebrow-raising moments where he's used the rule book technically correctly.

You know, he didn't cheat, but at some point, like he had a boulder moved using a loose, the loose impediments rule.

The rule ended up changing

after he did that, but it was like, oh, holy shit, dude, you know you can't do that.

But like.

He was technically within the rules.

Yeah.

And so, so much.

I mean, it's like the ball player on first base that fakes to throw it back to the pitcher and then tags him out.

Like, you know, like,

I don't know.

I think, like, if someone's ingenuity to figure out a creative way to gain an edge within the context of the rules, I personally think that should be applauded.

There's a lot of gray area, but it depends.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

So, what do you think kind of, you know, we just talked about poker and kind of the huge value that it can give in terms of thinking decision-making.

So, since you're both a poker player and

I don't know, a player of reality TV,

do you think that the reality TV has kind of as much educational value or a kind of value in decision making?

Like, would you, I just said you should, you know, teach your girls poker.

If you haven't already, I'm sure you have already.

Like, would you want them to, like, do you think that, would you recommend for them to go on Survivor, for instance, right?

As well.

Like, do you think that that is something that is important or is it different?

So I think this, because the experience I had the season that I won, there was one of the youngest girls ever was on the show.

Her name was Natalie Tenarelli.

I think she was only 19 at the time.

And I don't think she had enough life experience to be able to navigate that situation, especially playing with someone like me and other people that were older that understood that kind of stuff.

And she was very naive.

I ended up going all the way to the end with her because I knew I could beat her and everything.

And I just like it was still good friends to this day.

But I think my girls, I'm giving them the foundation to make good decisions, to understand theory, to understand that.

But I think there's not a replacement for life experience that would,

let's put it this way: as soon as they turn 18 and they're able to go on it, I wouldn't have them sign up.

But if they wanted to do it when they were 23, 24, 25, I would absolutely encourage them to do it.

But I think there is a threshold where you have to have some kind of ups and downs and experience outside of the safety of my home with me, you know, on your own to be able to handle the adversity that you're going to face out there with 17, 18 different other personalities.

That's really interesting.

So, so poker, in a way, can be a training tool for something like that as well, because poker is something that gives you a lot of that kind of experience, but not the other way around.

I actually briefly chatted with,

you did not compete against her, but with another member of Traders who got really excited that I was talking to you,

Jenja Westgate, she's from Sweden, she did the Swedish Traders.

She kind of was interested in whether how other games compare, right, and how your background in other games compared to that.

And also kind of the difficult things that the cameras don't capture, right, that go on behind the scenes, which I think is really interesting.

Like the stuff that no one sees, I think is probably just as important as the stuff that we do see.

What you have to understand is you're going to make a TV show.

You're playing a game, but they're going to film everything and to be cognizant of the person that you want to be represented as.

They don't go outside of their way to make you a villain if you're not a villain.

They're not going to, in the same sentence, like make you into this heroic character if you're not.

They pretty much stick to the script of what you give them.

To me, definitely, all of the games have helped different games because I've learned from each of them.

You know, I don't know that one is perhaps the best training ground for the others, but Survivor is the realest of any of the games.

And when I say the realest, I mean you're actually out there starving.

You go days without food.

You're living on an island.

You get no help.

There's no production interference.

There is no time the cameras ever turn off.

Rob, I went down.

24-7.

Yeah.

So it's like it is the real deal.

There's never been another show that I've done that's compared to the immersive experience that Survivor is.

Traders on the flip side is filmed more like a movie.

It's a production.

There's a lot of stopping and starting.

There are still rules and there's still integrity, and production still, you know, maintains that.

But they're 20-hour days sometimes if you're a trader, 18 to 20 hours.

You know, like you start at eight in the morning and you go till three and four in the morning on a lot of days, but there's stops and starts.

There's makeup, there's lunch, there's other things.

Where with survivor, it's there's never an off button.

It's on until if you win or get your torch snuffed.

That's it.

Yeah.

I mean,

I would definitely die.

Yeah.

I would not survive survivor.

I know that about me.

I will not survive.

Is it because of the physical part?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You'd be surprised.

After three days, you're not even hungry.

Most people don't miss a meal.

If you go three days, the hunger pains go away and you're so focused on the strategy.

I would always like look around and be like, there's other people here that are doing it.

Like, you can't complain.

Like, don't cry.

Like, these people are doing the same thing you're doing.

That's good.

So, I'm really curious to know, kind of, given all of this, you know, and all of your background and kind of how you've, how your thinking has evolved, the logical question is kind of the, what's next?

Are you going to kind of continue this reality TV evolution, you know, Survivor 50 or whatever it might be?

Or are you thinking about doing something of your own?

You know, what's in your mind?

I've always been a super spontaneous person, and I kind of always do what I feel.

Like, I went to go work construction after going to college.

I tried out for a show, and there have been times in between, like the reality TV stuff, where like I still do construction.

I have houses, I renovate, did a renovation show on TV, which came up.

But, like,

I try to balance my life and built a life where I do and live exactly like what I want.

And like for that, I'm super fortunate.

You know, like I might go play poker one weekend.

I might, you know, work on a house or a project over here.

I might do a reality show.

I might go on vacation with my family.

I don't know.

I've never really planned, you know, I just know that I'm not the kind of guy that would ever sit in an office and go to a nine to five.

And there's something about

not knowing what I'm going to do that's exciting.

And like, it's wild.

They say opposites attract.

My wife is the complete opposite.

She works as an admissions director for a school.

She goes while the kids are at school.

And it works.

It works for us, you know?

And

I think that balance of figuring out and not knowing is like what, like,

what I enjoy.

I think that that's a beautiful answer because one of the skills that I try to get people to embrace is embracing uncertainty, right?

And embracing the unknown.

I think that that's something that it's a gift that poker gives you, that ability.

And I think that being open and willing to kind of take the opportunities that life throws at you without being married to any given path is incredibly important and probably one of the reasons why you're so good at reality TV.

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Rob, for

your time.

This was amazing.

I feel like I have a million other questions that I could ask you.

Well, now that we're friends, you can call me anytime.

We'll figure it out.

Okay.

Sounds good.

Thank you so much for joining me and good luck on whatever comes next, even though you don't know what that might be.

Thanks, Maria.

Let us know what you think of the show.

Reach out to us at riskybusiness at pushkin.fm.

And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, we have some bonus content for you.

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Risky Business is hosted by me, Maria Konikova, and by my fabulous co-host, Nate Silver.

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This episode was produced by Isabel Carter.

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