You Play Better When You’re Having Fun (with Leo Margets and Erik Seidel)

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Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making better decisions.

I'm Maria Kondakopa.

And I'm Nate Silver.

We can't escape poker, Maria.

No, we can't.

We're going to be speaking with,

very privileged to speak with one of the nine final tableists, Leo Margits.

Terrific player.

You'll see she's a great personality and talks in a great deal of candor about what this very human experience is like.

Also, I believe the first woman in 30 years.

Is that correct?

To reach the final table.

That is absolutely correct.

So yeah, we'll be giving you a little recap of our own World Series, which was not nearly as successful as Leo's.

And then we'll let Leo wow you with her deep run.

Then we're also going to have some interview content from my poker mentor, Eric Seidel.

Nate, this is going to be a poker-centric, pokerific, risky business.

It is kind of the origin of our relationship.

I mean, probably a little overdetermined, right?

And kind of the show.

So you're getting some poker on the show sometimes, but I think it's here in this interview.

Here's a little trade secret.

Sometimes you record the interview before the top of the show, so you know what happened.

But it is about decision-making under pressure and the very human side of decision-making under pressure.

Leo is not some GTO bot.

right?

No.

And almost nobody is when you make to day eight, day nine.

How many days do they have?

10, 11.

10 days, yeah.

On

Right, the final table when you're playing for far more money than you ever have before for 99.9% of the population.

So, um, I think a very honest and candid look at what it was like through her eyes.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Before we get to Leonate, um, we are both now back in New York City.

The World Series is behind us.

I ended in the red, unfortunately.

Did you end in the black or in the red?

Did you make money or did you make it?

Yeah, I was black and cold, but then all these stupid fucking mixed games.

Anyway, that's another.

it was

a decent world.

I had a lot of caches.

I had a pretty deep run in the main event, but like, yeah, I've run these numbers.

I'm like,

for a single world series, you're going to end in the red 75% of the time because it's concentrated in the one time when you do make 500k by getting third place in the monster stack or something, which happens once every infinity million years, right?

So you have to like, you have to take events where you're pretty good results are in the mix a lot as being relatively tolerable, at least.

Yep, for sure, for sure.

No, even though I'm in the red, I'm pretty happy with how the summer went.

It is, you know, much better than last summer when I was really in the red, six figures in the red.

This summer is much more mild, much more manageable.

I did have some deep runs.

You know, I had second place finish online.

I had a nice deep run, not at the World Series, but at the Venetian and the World Poker Tour.

So I had some really nice moments where I could have really made something happen.

Unfortunately, you know, there's a big difference even between second and first, certainly between 50th and 1st.

So those moments can make or break a summer.

You know, had I just done a tiny bit better, I would have been in the black, but I was there, right?

I was

in the position to...

do a tiny bit better and that makes me happy right like that's that's what you that's the best that you can do is keep putting yourself in that position to make the really big money and as long as you can keep getting there then eventually you'll you'll get over the top and be able to kind of break through and you know that i think that's that's what i found nate you you've done that too um and so i think that as long as we keep performing well i think it can't you can't think of it as a failure even when you know this time around you didn't quite make it over the top because it is just you know one or two hands away from a winning summer literally right the whole summer can and this and be careful to keep in mind when things work in your favor, right?

It's easy to think about your bust out hand, whether it was

a bad beat or a cooler or a flip you lost.

These are all terms that poker players will know, right?

Or in my case, triple or a bluff that

got called down by a strong hand, top of his range, almost got him to fold.

He didn't, right?

But, you know, you also usually win a lot of flips, get a lot of luck.

There's lots of luck in ways that is more subtle sometimes, right?

When your opponent has a hand that should bust you and they chicken out and don't bet thinly enough, right?

When you're rescued from making a dumb shove because someone else shoves first and they run into aces instead of you, right?

The butterfly effect, there's a lot of luck involved.

Absolutely.

Speaking of luck versus, do you have any thoughts on the main event champion, Michael Mizrahi?

He's a very good and intimidating player.

He also had a crazy run.

I think Doug Polk ran the numbers and found like he had like 99.9th percentile luck on all ins.

He did.

He did.

And there was one moment where I think he had won 10 or 11 all-ins in a row.

Nate, that is so improbable, right?

I think, think back to like, what's the greatest streak you've ever had in winning all-ins?

I think mine might be three, right?

Like, I don't think I've ever won more than three all-ins in a row.

Like that, I tried to think about it, but 10 is just.

It's insane.

So he was, he was running, you know, you can say someone runs pure, and that means that they win all of their all-ins when they're ahead.

He was running more than pure because he won the ones where he was behind, right?

He actually ended up hitting his, you know, lucky one card.

And just to be clear, this doesn't take away anything from the fact that he's a really, you know, tricky player, that he puts people in tough spots, that he played well as well.

I'm not trying to detract from that, but it's really good to remember that you need to run like God, right, to win these moments.

And he, yeah, so he one out of 10,000 people wins the main event, right?

So if you run 99 out of 100 in terms of luck and then 99 out of 100 in terms of skill, and you could debate, but he's certainly pretty far up in the stratosphere.

Especially, by the way, for a tournament like the main event, where a lot of people are scared, where you're at the same table for a long time, right?

He is certainly making technical mistakes, but like you have not seen like the German solver GTO pros do that well in the main.

You see people like Michael do well because there's the animation factor, there's a player reading factor, there's the fearlessness.

So many people clam up and play like knits when you see anything beyond day five, six of main event coverage, right?

He doesn't have that.

You can accuse the grinder of being a lot, but a knit is not one of those things.

And by the way, for people who weren't watching, not only did he win the main event, he, for the fourth time, won the 50K Players Championship and immediately after winning the main event, was inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame.

That has has never happened before.

So he became.

He usually have to die for them to like, like, if someone dies to like accelerate in baseball, they're entry the Hall of Fame.

So it was quite, quite the year for him.

And, you know, I, I, just, if I'm being perfectly honest, I don't think he was the technically best player at the final table.

I don't think he was, he was number one.

But in terms of his intuition, in terms of his presence, and in terms of just like, he was on a roll.

And you can't, you can't, you can't underestimate that, right?

Like there are, this is true in sports, too.

Like we, just to like branch out a little bit, we've talked on the show before about the hot hand fallacy, where then it turned out, you know, that the hot hand fallacy is actually a fallacy in itself because it's not a fallacy in certain situations, including in places like poker, where like that sort of

aura and that sort of mindset can actually affect how other people play, right?

Like if you think I'm invincible right now, then people will play differently against you.

And you can't fake it, by the way.

Like this is something that like has to comes, comes from somewhere else.

And people, so people do get hot hands, right?

And it's not that the odds change.

It's that, Nate, you know, last week on the show, we talked about butterfly effect.

You just mentioned it here, but it's that the different, those different things on the margin shift a tiny bit enough to put the odds more in your favor and you end up kind of doing doing better than you otherwise would.

And I think that that's a really, really powerful factor that we shouldn't underestimate.

Yeah, what's tricky against the player?

I mean, look, you notice this more with like intermediate players and someone like Ms.

Rahi, right?

But by day four of a big tournament, especially the main event, everyone has run well to get to day four.

So people are playing with a lot more confidence for the most part.

And it's routine to see people who have a lot of chips make one or two loose plays that they probably shouldn't make, but aren't that bad, then take a bad beat and then tilt, right?

It's funny.

I've seen kind of your player rating sheet, which I think is amazing.

I'm, I'm not quite that

systematic about it, but I do always, when I look up players, one of the things I do is I look at their most recent results, right?

And I think, oh, this person, like he has X in earnings, but he just came in second in the Millionaire Maker, right?

So he just had this insane score.

That is going to matter, right?

Like that is actually something that you should be looking at.

You shouldn't just be looking at what are the total earnings?

How long have you been playing?

Sure, that matters.

How have you been doing recently, right?

Like, did you have a huge score?

Did you have a huge score yesterday?

Like, where is your head at?

And how are you going to be playing differently as a result?

And I think that that actually makes a really big difference.

We saw that.

Or the flip side, right?

Someone who you know has been out at the World Series for a month and they have two small cash from three weeks ago, right?

Yep.

Unless they had some family incident in the in between, they're probably going to be not in the best mentality.

Yep.

I think that those are really important things to take into consideration when you do your kind of decision-making calculus.

And it's good to remember, this is why, you know, solvers are great and all, but there are, when you're playing live poker, there are all these other factors that have to go into your decision tree.

This is true of all, you know, all decisions.

Like you just need to take the full situation into account.

People who can do that well end up doing well.

I think the grinder is someone who is very good at kind of sizing people up, even though I doubt Nate that he looked anyone up on Ned and Maub or did any research on his opponents.

He just has a good, you know, presence and he's able to do things like that.

Leo Marchette's someone who is very intuitive at the table.

I think we could see that.

So I think that these are just important things, important things to note, important things to keep in mind.

Nate, one more thing about the World Series.

A few weeks back, we remember we had listener Tim Senstock on the show.

He was going to be coming out to the World Series, and we talked to him in June, gave him some pointers about the events he was going to play.

And I actually ran into him in the World Series in the hallway at some point.

Yeah, I gave him a hug, and he seemed in good spirits.

And then afterwards, we did check in to see how his World Series went.

And yeah, he wrote us back.

So remember, Nate, you and I weren't too enthusiastic about the ultra stack because the structure is actually quite bad, right?

But, you know, there are good things about it.

So he ended up playing that.

He ended up playing both day ones.

He did last for a good chunk of the day, but busted both days just before caching after dinner.

He says he did really well in cash, though.

So he ended on a positive note.

Nate, so Tim did better than you and I did.

He ended his World Series in the black, whereas you and I ended in the red.

And he said that some of the tips we gave him, like, you know, not worrying about the clock, playing his own game,

I think that

he says that it helped him.

I hope it did.

And I hope next year he's able to do well, not only at the cash tables, but also in the tournaments.

Yeah, I said he'd like to have a few more reps for these tournaments.

I mean, the thing that's unique about poker is that you are thrown into the frying pan sometimes when you least expect it, right?

Poker never quite goes, it's not a tame beast.

No,

no, it isn't.

Sometimes you've got a good, a good game plan, and then you know, Mike Tyson comes and socks you in the chat there.

It all goes, it all goes out the window.

Um, Nate, good luck to the two of us next year at the World Series.

And, you know, I'll be at Barcelona, you will not be, but hopefully, you know, hopefully, we will run well and play well in whatever we undertake next.

Um, let's let's have some of that 10 all-ins in a row luck rub off on us.

So congratulations to everyone.

I hope everyone had a good World Series.

And with that, Nate, let's take a break and talk to Leo Marjetz.

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Nate and I are so excited to welcome a very special guest, Leo Margets, who has become the first woman in 30 years to make the final table of the WSOP main event.

This really is a historic event, no matter what some people on Twitter may say.

And we are so, so excited to talk to her about about it, to talk about her run, and just in general,

talk some poker and some historic achievements.

Welcome to the show, Leo.

We're so happy to have you.

Thank you, Maria.

Thank you.

Yeah.

So, Leo, you and I,

I think I met you right away when I started playing poker back,

you know, six years ago, but you'd been playing already forever.

And I was like, wow,

she's done so much.

So why don't you just start off by telling us kind of what this year means to you and kind of in the scope of your poker career?

Cause you've been playing for over a decade.

17 years.

That was my 17th.

Oh my God.

Almost two decades.

That's what, yeah, I'm a dinosaur.

It was my 17th main event every year since 2009.

Wow.

Nate, how many main events have you played?

I played nine.

I think my first one was in 2009 or 2011, but I skipped, I skipped a bunch.

All right, so

Leo, Nate and I together have played fewer main events than you have played by yourself.

And when I say I've played 17th main events, it looks so alien to me.

You know, like it's as if I don't relate because I have, I'm zero burnout with poker.

I love the game.

I love intrinsically the game.

Like, so that

motivation or that drive was the one that didn't ever let me burn out.

That's great.

How did you, you know, during the main, how did you make it so that like your brain could stay focused as opposed to letting external things get to you?

Because it's so, the main is hard.

It's so long, right?

If you go deep, it's so many days.

Yeah, it's definitely an energy game.

Maybe since 2018, I usually do an extel, every long series, an extra where I, at the end of the day, I rank myself on whatever four categories, like goals in mind, focus, technical skills.

And then it's very interesting to see how ranking helps me stay on track.

Because, like, imagine you go to the gym and day one,

you can do 10 reps with 100 kilos in squat.

If you do that every day for a week, on day eight, you're 100%

without rest.

No, no way is going to be 10 reps with 100 kilos.

And physically, we all see it, but mentally, it's not so easy to see unless we notice.

Because you might think on day 11th of a series online or live you can tell to yourself being honest no I'm giving my 100%

so you feel chill because you think yeah I'm doing my 100%

but your 100% is a fraction of what it can be your 100% maybe 60% of what your potential 100% can be so this external helps me a lot because

when I start having sevens in my grades, I just take a day off and it helps and next day I improve so much.

And then also I realized that it was a good idea for me to write my goals as if my ideal Leo, what will my ideal leo do, you know, accepting, I discovered that to play well I need to have fun in the table.

And this together with what I was telling with writing my goals and thinking

that I wanted to be the only one validating my decisions, you know, like as long as I could explain to myself why I was doing something, I don't care about external people judging, there will always be people judging.

And

yeah, that made it actually

easy.

Because it was like I was approaching every day with zero expectations and zero fear, and like zero fear of busting, zero fear,

zero anxiety to win.

It was just, okay, I'm going to focus on every hand the best I can.

I'm going to have fun.

I'm gonna take my time to make every decision.

And

I'm super happy because I was, I mean, this is, I think, my biggest accomplishment, I was the Leo.

I would have liked to be in that, in a spot like this, right?

That of course, you

even when you reach the final table, you think, okay, I'm very calm, but still, I was ready to experience some nerves.

And

I mean, I did a bit, but it was nerves.

I was where I wanted to be.

So it was a such a nice experience.

Yeah, I think

one thing you realize, right,

and I have not made it nearly as deep as you, Leo.

I have made it to day six and day five in the past couple of years.

The nerves build,

at least for normal people, maybe you're not normal, right?

For normal people, and I think even all but like

the top people who have like made multiple final tables before, right?

There's some point at which you're playing poker for, for more money than you ever have or perhaps ever will, right?

You know, for me, I think kind of the inflection point comes at like

day four at the dinner break where you're in the money.

Now a lot of people have busted and you're like, okay, 93% of people have been eliminated from this tournament.

All my friends I used to get dinner with are gone playing some other event, right?

How are you dealing with the increasing stress?

Are you trying to put it out of your mind?

Are you trying to get in a zone where you channel it in some ways?

But what's and you had a deep run in

a while ago, like 2009, right?

Did that help?

How were your coping mechanisms, I guess?

Well,

I did run my first ever main event, and I am so grateful that I had the chance to

improve from all the things I did back

by then, like

just being a lot in the phone the day before and being

very

susceptible

to the comments and getting all this dopamine rush from everyone saying stuff.

So

I

was so happy to be able to do things better.

After day six, not open Instagram anymore, not taking the phone, just proactively texting whoever I wanted.

I texted my parents and said, hey, I'm alive.

I'm actually doing very well.

Don't worry for me.

And the rest, I have to say, I didn't feel any pressure.

I know people think I might, you know, like, because it was such a deep run and a long time since a woman didn't do it, but I didn't feel any pressure.

I had,

I just wanted to give my best, right?

And the challenge really was that once I made the main event,

Once I made the final table, it was a victory for many people, even for myself i felt so happy but at the same time it was not done

i mean it actually just started i get the goosebumps when i say it because

but the feeling that everyone's was already celebrating it was a bit contradictory because you also wanted to relax and think wow so good but then

i had the a fucking incredible chance in my life to be in a spot where you know you you can do super big even if it was already very good and i remember having a chat the night before

Adri and Stef and talking to them and when Adri said, do you know you can win this thing, right?

And it's like, and

then he said, and you know you can win this thing and you can bass firsthand.

And these words didn't feel

overwhelming.

It felt, yeah,

I'm gonna play this.

I am gonna

do my best, you know, and

happily I don't have any regrets.

Even if I had, because it could happen, you know, pressure, whatever, I could have had regrets on how I played.

I'm very happy that I don't, but I was even ready to make mistakes if, you know, I can give my best and still make some mistakes.

But I

am happy with the play, with how I played, with how I handled

the situation.

So,

yeah, just like incredibly grateful also to share it with my close friends that were there,

with my team, with the community, because after everything passed I realized how you know how much people had been rooting and it's so cool to be in a spot where you want you could feel the energy I could feel I meet Michael's mom like I on my way to the final table she just said oh you know my heart is divided because my son is also there but I really want you know this kind of stuff

this kind of stuff like

is we all have people in our lives.

I reflect a lot on that.

We all have people in our lives that love us or support us.

But it's not that common to be that life puts you in a spot where people can show you their support and their love in such an incredible way.

Something that you said earlier, I just want to point out for everyone, because I think it's so important and people forget it.

You could tell watching the final table, like watching the runs, like you could tell the whole time, like there were people who were, you know, know just super focused which obviously like it's a main event it's good but you were all you were playing well but you were having a blast and you could actually feel that energy and i think that that's so important to remember i mean poker is a phenomenal way to learn how to think better, right?

It is such like a, it is an incredibly powerful, you know, mental tool, all of these things, but it's also a game, right?

It's also supposed to be fun.

And I think people lose sight of that.

And I wonder, you know,

I would love to think that part of your exceptional performance was due to the fact that you had a blast, right?

That you were actually enjoying yourself.

Well, because I don't know other people, but I also, I mean, in poker can be a tool also to know yourself better, right?

Exactly.

Yes, absolutely.

For me, this year, and it's been 17 years that I've been playing at this more seriously,

I realized I give my best.

when I'm having fun.

And

at the end, we are lucky enough to put our time and energy and effort into a game.

And yeah, why are games for?

In the same way that when I train in the gym, I enjoy, I have fun, and that's why probably why I stick to it.

With poker, it's the same.

Like, it was so different.

I don't think I've ever had so much fun.

And in a way, there was a couple of hours that I didn't have any fun

from 90 hours of play.

No, and then I went when I was not having fun, I went again to rushing decisions.

I remember a hand with Michael.

I just snapfolded to avoid the uncomfortability, me not having fun, me not having fun, embracing uncomfortable spots.

A poker is going to bring you uncomfortable spots.

You know,

in the beginning of the series, I was so much in the mood that I even wanted to experience those uncomfortable situations because it's going to happen.

If you avoid them, you know, it's impossible to perform well because it's like, it doesn't happen, you know, you cannot just seek easy spots or easy decisions.

So I just needed to switch my mind and say, hey, let's embrace uncomfortable.

I was almost curious and looking forward to get those uncomfortable spots that come from playing poker, especially in high level, elite level, you know, like you're gonna accept it, you're gonna go through uncomfortable spots and you need to deal with them and dance with them because if you just want to skip them all the time, okay, with that.

Yeah.

And you're never going to learn.

You know, I love that you're pointing out the importance of taking your time.

This is something I need to work on as well because I'm a fast player.

I make quick decisions.

I don't like tanking.

I don't like when people tank.

Like, you know, I'm one of those people who calls the clock.

And,

but it's something that like sometimes I've made big mistakes because I've acted too quickly.

And I think that sometimes, you know, it's easy to kind of just snap fold, snap, you know, just make those quick decisions because you think, but something that you, that you said, even though like just to make sure that you're not missing something, just to kind of think it through, I think that in poker and in life, we often don't, right?

We often don't take the time to just make sure.

And instead, we just act.

And I think that that's just such an important reminder that I'm glad that that was something that

you've brought up explicitly.

As you said, it also happened to me when it was one of my leaks it was one of the columns i rate myself every day because i i leak on that sometimes it's not you know playing too fast and i know some of the mistakes i made was because of that because i believe i can think well right like i can have obviously as i said i don't know anything and there's always so much time that so much room for improvement but at least if i make a mistake is i want it to be because there's something i don't know not because it's something I could have got there if I just allowed myself a couple more minutes to think.

Yeah, that gap between the kind of idealized Leo and the actual one, because we've all had hands as poker players, maybe not everybody, right?

I assume that like we're in the moment, you're like, boy, if I were a really good player,

I would fold this hand, or if I were a really good player, I would turn this hand into a bluff.

And you're tired and you, and you don't do it, right?

And you kind of know you're not doing it.

And like, somehow you're not capable of of like just pushing your hand a different motion.

Did you have a big stack early in the main?

Or when did you start to like think, I can make the final table?

Never.

I just, no, I was focusing on every hand.

And that's the good thing.

I didn't have any expectations.

Just the expectation, the goal is, no, honestly, that's why I'm more like proud about it because I didn't really thought I'm going to make the final table.

So all of a sudden we were in the final table and I'm like, that's great.

So do you, I mean, obviously people will, you know, talk about this.

It is kind of a historic moment, you know, first time in 30 years, first time in the modern era, not to take anything away from Barbara Enright, but making it through like 200 players is very different from making it through 10,000 players, right?

It's a totally different game.

So do you,

you know.

For others, it's a big deal.

For you, like now that it's over, is this a big deal?

Is it going to change kind of how you,

what, what you're doing going forward?

or was it just one more tournament that you went deep in, and now it's kind of on to the next?

I mean,

yeah, on to the next, but enjoying the experience, right?

Like, I think we've all dreamed of that, and all of a sudden, I was living what we all dreamed.

Like, I wanna enjoy sabotage, right?

But

I don't feel I represent, you know, you get all this, no, you represent now all the women fighting.

I think this is a bit alien to me.

Like, I'm super glad if someone, being woman, man, whatever, can feel inspired by what I did or feels good.

But

I don't dare to say I represent all the women that, you know, play poker.

And

no, I mean, right?

Like, I think we represent ourselves, each individual represents themselves, but at the same time, I feel very honored that someone can get inspired.

And regarding if

life is going to change, to be honest, I feel less motivated to what to play one case.

But besides that, no, I'm not gonna start playing Triton.

I'm not gonna,

I'm not gonna take a year off.

I'm just gonna keep grinding as I did.

You know, I love, I'm lucky that I love the game.

I love

putting time into getting better.

I am very well surrounded also, and I think it's key to be able to talk hands and talk, think poker, which is also very lucky.

I'm not, it's not gonna change much.

By the way, the day that

there's a day break before the final table, right?

How did you spend that time?

Were you prepping?

Were you taking care of friends?

Were you sleeping?

Were you having a really nice day by the pool?

Or what did you do?

I tried I took it as another day of the main event, but without cards.

But my approach was this is not a day off.

This is a day of

main event, but we are just not playing with cards so i stick to my routine i slept can you believe this is crazy can you believe that the day i slept better was the of all vellas i slept nine hours was the day before the final table

no i can't believe that i cannot believe it either but that's how chill i was and happy to be there right like it gave me and it gave me also so much confidence the fact that i had slept so much no because it's this isn't what you know but back to the day itself i trained i went for lunch very chill i didn't do much social i'm not i'm a bit introvert anyway so i needed time and it was a day for myself a lot i think i i went for lunch and then i had a the meeting with adri and steph for a couple of hours and then at eight o'clock i was having dinner by myself and

9 30.

so we maria and i you were actually

our first desire to have on the show this week, more than the man who won the main event, Michael Mazrahi.

If he wants to come on, we'll happy to have him on in a future week.

What was it like to play against him?

I mean,

again,

you know,

I like his vibe.

He's so uncomfortable.

He's so uncomfortable to be in the table, which is the biggest compliment, right, that someone can tell you.

And I think at some points he was picking on me.

I could see how he played, and I know he was picking on me to be extra aggressive because he was putting so much bluffs than needed on Hans versus me, and instead cutting himself on bluffs against, for example, other people, which, you know, like it's poker, right?

And it worked.

And

I just, I don't know, some people, you don't, we didn't talk much, but some people, just the vibe,

you like it.

And I liked his vibe.

I love it.

I love it.

By the way, for people who don't realize,

Leo, when you're talking about Adri on your rail, that's Adrian Mateos, who is one of the best, if not the best, tournament players in the world.

So you definitely had like one of the best minds in poker by your side and helping you through this.

Just to add tonate's question, did you guys talk at all about the dynamic, you know, with the grinder?

Did you talk about specific players and specific exploits or no?

We didn't kind of strategy at all.

He was so cool, like he was super nice.

He told me I could, any doubts, I could write him any moment of the day.

Like it was, I felt really supported by all the team, but yeah, especially by Adri.

And we talked more about the spot, right?

Like being in a spot where it could be so overwhelming, but he saw I had confidence, so it was very good because the things we talked, it just

worked to validate my approach to the day.

I think that, you know, it was, it's not just inspiring because of how far you went, but just how you played, right?

It's, it's good to watch that and to see someone succeed while having a smile, while having a good time, and not being scared, right?

Like you, you put it out there, like you ran big bluffs, like you made big calls, like you, you actually,

you know, sure, like you can think back to the nines hand, but like forget it.

Like that happens,

right?

Shit happens.

Like we all, we've all been in that situation.

The less worried you are about making mistakes, like the less a perfectionist you become, the more tolerant you are with mistakes.

Paradoxically, the less mistakes you do, right?

Well, do you have, so you know, for everyone listening and for everyone who followed your journey, do you have any kind of parting words of wisdom?

You've already shared so much or anything that you want to kind of

promote, coach to us.

Science, personal blogs.

No, that's like, I really

want to say thank you again because I've n

never f felt so

supportive, so so supported with so many people

asking my cards, like I felt the energy and also this is so much nicer shared, right?

Like

and in the same way that you know you

you try not to take too serious comments from people you don't know because when it's bad,

you know you wouldn't you wouldn't accept an advice from these people

so it's good to keep that this that distance also when the feedback is good because

something I like a lot to think in bad moments it's applicable for now no like the the these two should pass right like now you are a superhero now everything is good but you know at the end of the day I'm so much more than just playing, which I think at the same time is good because I don't create my identity from playing.

And I think this is a good advice for in general, but for players, for people that play for fun, for people that play, I mean,

I don't like to give advice because it's a bit like an unsolicited advice, but since you asked, I think to not link your identity with your game is quite healthy mentally because

you know, things go well, things go bad, you go through shit, you have super incredible deep runs, and you are still you, right?

And shouldn't be your results that validate you.

That is a really wonderful message, I think, to remember, to internalize,

to end on.

And also, like, I think it's one of the reasons why you ended up doing so well this year.

So, for I, Leo, Nate and I do not see you as being defined by your results.

That said, congratulations on an incredible result.

It's really, it's really wonderful.

It was a pleasure watching you, rooting for you.

And we're so glad that we had the chance to have you on the show.

I had a super time also in this chat.

And yeah, I hope to see you running together the main event in Barcelona.

Let's do it.

So that was our conversation with Leo Margettz.

So let's take a quick break now and then we'll hear from Eric Seidel.

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So today on the show, we've got a very special guest with us, a poker legend, poker hall of famer, 10-time World Series of poker bracelet bracelet winner.

As of now, we are recording this in May.

World Poker Tour title holder, EPT title holder, you know, triple crown winner.

Basically every title that exists, he has.

High roller, extraordinaire.

Welcome to the show, Eric Seidel.

That's a very generous intro.

Well, and of course, Eric's greatest claim to fame is teaching me how to play poker.

It is.

So Eric, let's,

you know, we're going to talk a lot of poker and risk and all of that, but why don't we start off by just kind of going back to the beginning to, you know, little Eric growing up.

How did your interest in games and in poker even originate?

How did you even get introduced to that world?

Were you someone who was curious about it from a young age?

Is it something that came later?

Yeah, I started playing backhand when I was in high school.

And then that led me to a place called the Game Room, which was on the Upper West Side, and then ended up going to the Mayfair, which was a well-known backhand and bridge club in those days, and played backhand there for years.

And a poker game ended up developing in the Mayfair.

At the time, they didn't allow any pros in, which was very helpful to me because

I was terrible.

So I got to play with other people who were also terrible.

And

I would say it just slowly started to take over the Mayfair.

And I mean, eventually, the Mayfair ended up being a poker club.

Eric, so you kind of sort of played games professionally in the sense that, you know, paid the bills, but then you had a little detour and you went to Wall Street, which is gambling of a much gamblier nature than poker, I would say.

Talk a little bit about kind of how your background in games prepared you for that and how you, you know, how you ended up then transitioning transitioning back and playing poker full-time, leaving Wall Street for a career that, you know, many people would say, what are you doing?

I do think it was a natural transition to go from playing games to Wall Street.

And you see a lot of poker players now going on to Wall Street.

But while I was working on Wall Street, I was also

flying out to play cash games in Vegas.

I didn't like being on Wall Street.

I didn't like having to wear wear a tie.

There's a competitive and a pettiness there that I didn't like trading on the floor where people are fighting for ones and twos.

And

it's kind of an ugly environment and I really didn't like being part of it.

I just felt like

to be rewarded trading options on the floor, you really need to be a dick, you know, and try and screw people over.

And that was basically what was being done to me.

And it wasn't, it didn't feel good.

Our listeners might think,

boy, isn't poker kind of cutthroat?

But there's like a kind of camaraderie among players most of the time.

And Eric, you've played in like some of the biggest, most famous games of all time.

I mean, has that camaraderie lessened over the years?

As you kind of had more

tourists and professionals?

Or I mean, what's what was the scene like when you're kind of young, young, skinny kid, I guess, and trying to get your feet wet in Vegas, which you don't yet know that well?

I mean, it was fine because I knew enough people.

And the nice thing about poker is you can,

I mean, now it's changed a little bit where there are more private games in Vegas.

But in those days, all the games were open, and that was kind of...

part of the law is that you got to play if if you wanted to.

It was competitive, but it was never unfriendly.

I mean, it can be exhausting, but it's also, I also really enjoy the environment.

I like rooting for friends and things like that.

In terms of thinking about decision-making and risk-taking in really high-stakes situations and under bright lights, right?

When people are looking and people are watching how you're playing, because these days, I know in the past this wasn't the case, but these days they're all streamed, right?

So people know exactly how you're making decisions.

How do you deal with that right how do you keep executing at a high level after you've been playing for multiple days you're tired everyone's watching and the stakes are so high because the payouts keep going and going up and the pay jumps are huge and I feel like this is one of the things that might might be the most applicable to real life because I think people always want to know, you know, how do I make good risk decisions when the stakes are the highest.

If you're playing a tournament, one of the nice things about a tournament is that the the further you go along,

the more that's at stake.

And I think that's helpful because now you're really rewarded for paying attention and

bringing focus.

And so, I mean, I do think sometimes I have to remind myself to get back to just being present and

watching the action, stuff like that.

But

it is easier as you get closer to a final table or you get closer to a win because there's just more at stake.

And it's just, it becomes more interesting.

That's really interesting.

Nate, do you find that as well just in poker and in life?

Because I think it's true of me in a certain respect that as kind of as the pressure builds, you actually perform better, right?

Because there are different people.

There are people who kind of can't perform under pressure, and then there are people who do their best at kind of of high-stakes moments.

And it seems like Eric is the high-stakes performer.

I'd like to think that I am too.

How do you see it, Nate?

I mean, I think you've made more deep runs in the past couple of years than I have, Maria.

No, like, I have felt increasingly comfortable when the pressure does mount, especially in weaker fields, right?

We're like, okay,

if I made...

day threes a couple dozen times in my life and this is their second time, then I'm inexperienced relative to a lot of people.

But you've been through that a little bit before.

It also helps, I think, I like when events are on TV, because even though it adds some annoyances, like, what am I wearing?

How do I look?

I think it puts more pressure on other people by comparison.

Yeah, because I'm not sure if people do better under pressure or that they do less bad than

they choke less than others, right?

But yeah, look, I mean.

Eric, how do you stay sharp, right?

Because

let's say you're having a mediocre World Series and then finally after six weeks, right,

you just barrel through a tournament, a big event, right?

You're the chip leader.

It's on to day four or something.

I mean, what's your routine like during the series

to pace yourself or stay sharp or all the above?

Well, I mean, at the World Series, it's really just you're playing, you're eating, you're going to sleep.

So it's just, there's no, I mean,

there aren't really, you just have to avoid distractions.

It's funny because every year it comes around and you think like, oh, good, so-and-so is going to be in town.

Hopefully I'll get to have dinner with them or whatever.

And it's just, it's always a mistake to think that way because it's such an all-immersive thing that you are, if you're not playing, you're in recovery.

And it just, you know, every date it goes like that for, you know, for the whole World Series, six or seven weeks.

Maria's smart because she takes a few days off and she'll, you know, she'll go take a little mini vacation.

I think that really helps.

But

yeah, no,

I do always do that before the main event because it really helps clear my mind and kind of get me out of any funk that I might be in.

I find that that's very useful.

And Eric, one of the things that I love, not just about the World Series, but just about your approach to poker in general, is that you're one of the only players I've met who is okay to end up missing an event that you had planned on playing, right?

That you actually, like, in some ways, obviously you're incredibly competitive, but in some ways, you don't have ego in the moments where it matters and you're okay to say, you know what, I'm not feeling up for it or this field looks terrible.

And even though I planned on playing this, you know, $100,000 buy-in or whatever it is, I'm not going to do that.

And most players, like, they'd feel their ego bruised, right?

They're like, no, I can compete, you know, in this.

I'm going to play.

How are you thinking about those moments?

Because, you know, that takes a lot of self-knowledge and discipline to do that.

Well, yeah, I also have a no-suffering rule.

So if I wake up and I'm just, you know, and I'm tired, I just won't play.

If I'm dragging,

it just,

I don't want to be unhappy at the table.

And especially at an event like the World Series where there are just so many events every day, you have to be very conscious of what kind of energy you can bring.

No suffering rule.

That's amazing.

I think we should all implement that in life.

If you wake up and you feel like this is going to be suffering, you just say no.

Yeah, exactly.

Are you trying to bracelet max?

Are you trying to compete with

Gilhelmuth in the middle?

No, I mean,

I'm not one of those guys.

I don't play as many tournaments as the guys who are bracelet hunting.

I feel like I have enough bracelets.

I don't really have to chase them anymore.

And it's also like, it's one of these things where if you win one, it's some kind of mini miracle.

I just don't like to think that way.

I just want to play.

Like, for instance, this summer, there's some cool tournaments at the Wynn, and I'll be playing those, you know, which are not bracelet events.

But just, you know, it's nice to play at the Wynn, and they run good tournaments.

Nate, 10 bracelets.

Do we think that's enough?

I think we need 10.

No, I think 13 Baker's Dozen.

Let's not be, let's not be yeah yeah for sure eric was there a moment when you're like poker has changed when when were there like inflection points that you remember well the main one really is computers coming into the game and that's really changed things over the last i don't know eight years or i'm not sure how long it's been but it's really it has it has changed everything i have a friend who uh

jokes with me that i've been saying for about 30 years that the game is is too tough and

I need to stop playing.

But really more recently the computers have made it a much greater challenge.

But it's still, you know,

it's made it more difficult for me to play, but it's also made it more interesting.

And

it's fun to play against these computer guys and also to see how much the game has evolved.

So I enjoy being part of that and trying to figure things out in this more modern computerized world.

Yeah, and I mean, you're still succeeding, right?

At EPT Monte Carlo, you came in third in one of the high rollers.

You've won several of your bracelets in the last few years.

So clearly, you're still able to compete at a high level.

Do you, you know, how do you prepare, not just for the World Series, but for series in general?

Do you work with solvers?

Kind of,

what does your study routine look like?

And has it changed significantly over the years?

Yeah, it's definitely changed a lot.

I mean, it used to be you didn't really have to do anything.

You just showed up and played, you know, which was really nice.

It just, it was a different time and there were some bugs, but the bucks really weren't that relevant to playing.

It was nice back then.

You could just show up and play.

And now,

yeah, you have to study, you have to study solvers and study openings.

It's, you know, I think that there are people now who are completely immersed in it, who are studying and playing, and that's kind of all they do.

It creates, you know, an extra challenge to go up against people like that.

But it's also, you know, it's interesting and exciting and it's, you know, it's fun.

I feel like I'm as much a fan as I am a player.

And, you know, I'll sit down at a table and I'll be like, wow, these guys are just so good.

This is really fun.

That's great.

And I think that's probably one of the reasons why you're still so good, right?

Is because you are,

it's the ego thing again.

You're learning from others and you're kind of incorporating it into your game.

I remember one hand.

So a few years ago,

I think it was PokerGo released some of the archives from like the earliest, earliest World Series events.

And they had some footage from 1988.

So the famous World Series where you came in second to Johnny Chan.

And they had

footage of just at the final table before you guys were heads up.

And I still remember you just

going bananas with a small pocket pair, right?

There was like a raise and a call and you had, I think it was pocket fours, and you just like ripped it.

So talk about, first of all, fearlessness.

And secondly, no one was doing that, right?

Like these days, you know that these make actually really good bluffs.

But if you were looking at people's game back then, that was just absolutely not done.

Obviously, you were young and you would say young and stupid.

I'd say, you know, young and fearless.

But those plays, like where did that come from?

Was that just intuition patterns?

Like what were, do you remember how you thought of doing things that nobody had done before?

I do remember I was very focused on reads and things like that.

And

I was pretty reckless.

Especially if you talk about 1988, I didn't really know what I was doing.

But I do remember feeling like this is really fun because you get reads from some of these players that

I wasn't getting in the game back in New York.

And it was like, it was very exciting for me to think, wow, I can play with these people.

And

I didn't have any experience outside of New York and

it was

were the reads back then

obvious or is just that you have a knack for picking that up or more experience or are people better about avoiding tells now I think they were more obvious back then and I think people were less concerned about timing and and patterns and things like that

so you know it was just you know everybody was kind of playing by the seat of their pants back then So there really were a lot of opportunities.

And also, you know, I just,

when you don't know what you're doing,

you can really push things pretty far.

Let's say it's the first day of the main event.

I assume you like the main event, Eric.

You're not one of these.

I love the main event.

I hope I can play it every single year.

I really get a kick out of it.

It's day one.

Maybe you're you, you have some media trailing you, but I assume everyone knows who you are at the table, right?

How are you adjusting to that, right?

To being a known person where there might be some inhibitation factor, there are thousands of hours of you playing poker on tape, right?

How do you adjust to, say, like a ranked amateur playing against you versus like a nervous kid who looks up to you versus like another

pro?

I'm trying to play against each person individually, but I don't really feel like any kind of reputation or anything like that going to is going to be helpful.

I don't feel like

there are those types of exploits where people will be more reluctant to play a hand with me

because they perceive me to be a good player or well-known or whatever.

I think, if anything, they might be more likely to play a hand because it's kind of fun for them to

have a story to tell with people back home.

So they might be a little bit more likely to try and bluff me, that kind of thing.

But I try and play it

as straight as possible.

So in some ways, you've become Johnny Chan in

rounders where Matt Damon just wants to bluff you to be able to say that he bluffed Johnny Chan.

I think that exists.

I really do think that exists.

I remember being at a table with a world champion

in a big tournament, and a guy raised him and he moved all in.

And he said to the guy, don't you want to

play against the world champion?

And the guy ended up calling.

And it was just, it was so ridiculous.

But I do think that goes through some people's minds.

And so I think it does.

It probably

raises the risk that somebody's going to try and bluff you.

And I think that if it's televised, it's even more dramatic.

I think people...

People don't want to be seen as somebody who's being bluffed on TV.

And and if they can bluff you on TV, then they have, you know, then they can go back and be a hero in their home game.

Did you how

much impact was there for you from losing the Immortalized by Rounders heads-up matches against Johnny Chan?

Was that like

were you still happy the next morning because you got second place, or was it like, do you have like lifelong regret from it, or where are you on that spectrum?

The funny thing about that is to me, that's still one of my favorite tournaments ever, just because I was really at the very beginning of my career and I had no idea how my skills would be applied at the World Series.

I had a couple people in the game that encouraged me to go, but I had no confidence that

I was going to be a favorite in the World Series or that I could go deep.

And to have that experience of going through those four days

and, you know, trying to outplay people and

the whole thing I mean it was it was amazing for me I just I

love that tournament I still I still have you know great feelings about that I mean the fact that I lost is it's not really a big deal you know you win tournaments and you lose them you know I don't I really have good feelings about you know

how

you know, each day of that tournament, how fun it was to see like, hey, I'm playing with these guys and I'm doing well, you know, and I'm seeing some fun things.

I'm seeing, you know, I'm, you know, finding some creative plays that, you know, because you're just making things up as you go along.

And I think for me, at least, I was discovering a lot of things, you know,

at that time.

Well, I think that that is a wonderful note to go out on because that is kind of a peak accomplishment, even though you did not end up winning that bracelet.

But do you have any, you know, know, as I'm sure that a lot of poker players are listening to this or and aspiring poker players, do you want to leave, you know, the first question I ever asked you, I'm going to, I'm going to end the interview with it, which is if you could tell one thing, kind of one, one piece of advice for poker players who are either starting out or at any point in their journey,

what would it be?

Well, I remember I told you,

pay attention and I still think that applies because there's just, there's so much information.

I feel like people are teaching you how to beat them if you just pay enough attention to their patterns and and and what they're doing

so if you're paying enough attention then you know that that that's a big exploit I think that those are yeah those are wise words and very difficult so phone bans yay

I want to ask you one question about my co-host

When you were coaching Maria, when did you think that she had real potential for the game?

Maria was an exciting project.

I I mean, just because she came from nowhere.

She didn't know how many cards were in a deck.

But I think

what happened with her was she just worked so hard.

And so

that was really the key to how successful she was.

She was interested, she was open-minded, and

she was willing to put the work in.

And for me,

it's really thrilling to see that she's still playing.

I really get a kick out of the fact that she's still playing and still doing well

and continues to do well.

It's fun to sweat her.

Well, thank you for your time today, and thank you for your time throughout our entire

relationship because you have given me more hours of your life than

anyone has any right to ask for.

So thank you for joining us.

This was an absolute pleasure.

And yeah, pleasure is all mine.

I'm a fan of the pod.

Thank you, Eric.

Friend of the pod.

Nate likes to call people friends of the pod.

So thank you, friend of the pod, Eric Seidel.

All right.

That's a big upgrade.

I like it.

Let us know what you think of the show.

Reach out to us at riskybusiness at pushkin.fm.

And by the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, we have some bonus content for you.

Today, it's more from our interview with Leo Marszet.

That's coming up right after the credits.

And if you're not subscribing, what's wrong with you?

Consider signing up.

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Risky Business is hosted by me, Maria Konakova.

And by me, Nate Silver.

The show is a co-production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia.

This episode was produced by Isabel Carter.

Our associate producer is Sonia Gerwin.

Sally Helm is our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein.

Mixing by Sarah Bruguer.

Thanks so much for tuning in.

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