“My Parents Were Pedophiles & Forced Me Into Being With Other Pedophiles”- A Day With Lisa Plumb

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there are a few workplaces where most employees feel fear on a daily basis where they could actually die.

Not just a, I hate my job, I could die, or technically bad people and a meteor could strike anywhere at any moment.

But this is genuine.

The second you clock in for work, adrenaline starts spiking because you can die at any moment.

One employee states ominously, ultimately, we're directly in harm's way every single minute.

We come to work with the attitude of, it's not if I'm going to get hit, but when I'm going to get hit.

That's just the way of life.

Which is why when you clock in for this job, you get handed an alarm that you wear on your body at all times.

It has a GPS.

It sends immediate signals to the police when it's activated.

You also get this giant whistle to make sure that if something happens, you can alert by making a loud noise.

This is a state psychiatric hospital where the population consists primarily of patients who have committed crimes, violent crimes.

Some of the patients have committed murder, violent assaults, and yet they're here because they have either been found criminally insane, incompetent to stand trial, or they're awaiting to stand trial and they're being evaluated.

One psychiatrist states, treating these people is not easy.

Violence is part of our everyday life.

It's a constant thing.

It's not like the violence happens now and again.

It's part of the daily life here.

One employee at Patton State Hospital in California, which has about 1,300 patients, she started feeling uncomfortable because one of the patients there, it felt like he was tracking her movements, just observing her.

Every time she clocked in for work, it felt like she was being stalked.

It's a big deal.

She tells her boss about it.

They do nothing.

By the next month, the patient punches her in the face, drags her into a room, and stabs her repeatedly with a makeshift weapon.

These are the types of patients that are held at Patton State Hospital, which is exactly where Donald Gordon is sent.

He is going to be there for at least two years.

He has this record of over 40 different charges of SA or abuse against a minor.

And he says the reason for all of this, he's telling the patent state psychiatrist.

He says, well, everybody does it.

Also, some of them were promiscuous, and they were the ones that came after me.

Side note, his own children were his victims as well.

The neuropsychologist in charge of evaluating him states, Don Gordon's marriages weren't doing well.

He kept trying to stop himself.

He was thinking about stopping himself, he indicates.

He knew that it was illegal and he could get into into a lot of trouble going after children.

But he said the more he did it, the more chances that he would get.

But he said that he just kept making this commitment to himself that he was going to stop and he just couldn't.

He didn't stop.

He said the more he did it, the more sexually stimulated and aroused he got, that his sex drive actually increased.

To his surprise, he wasn't getting satiated or satisfied.

He was actually getting more stimulated.

And then he became obsessed with getting more and more and more.

He tells the psychologist that the main reason that he went after little girls is because it made him feel, quote, quote, big, powerful, and good.

But he says, don't worry because when I get out, it's going to be better.

I'm never going to do this again.

In fact, I'm going to put parental controls on my own computer so that I can't even watch anything that would get me feeling some type of way.

They alarmingly, the authorities find a lock of girls' hair in a plastic baggie at his house.

And the only reason that he was even caught again this time was because he went to a photo development center where you can turn in film from those film cameras to be developed.

And he turned in a role that just had CSAM everywhere.

And yet, Patton State Hospital lets him out.

Even though he had used the hospital as a networking place to meet other sex offenders and reunite with them at a family nudist camp to compete to see who could molest more children.

He used the hospital as a networking event.

Which, side note, family nudist camps are an interesting place.

Children are allowed to go and most camps have rules that everybody must be nude at the property.

I mean, a lot of people wonder if it's uncomfortable for children.

One camp addresses this in their FAQ section of their website, Frequently Asked Questions, and they answer the question, are children forced to be nude?

The response is, the word forced is an emotionally loaded word that suggests unreasonable force or other inappropriate coercion.

The reality is that as parents, we have a duty to teach our children to behave appropriately.

We teach them to brush their teeth and eat healthy foods, even if their desires might be contrary.

However, when it comes to nudity, most children are very comfortable with nudity nudity until they are taught otherwise by society.

With young naturist children, it's just as likely that parents force them to wear bathing suits when visiting municipal pools where bathing suits are mandatory.

It's a very weird FAQ page, one that makes me personally uncomfortable.

But I'm not a very pro-clothing person, so what do I know?

Another rule page states, sunburned shoulders may require a reasonable length t-shirt, perhaps to the waist, but certainly not extending to the knees or ankles.

Going about the the property wearing a towel, except perhaps for the first few moments out of the water, is always inappropriate.

I know that in certain countries being nude is not stigmatized or associated with sexual connotations like here in the US, but these camps clearly can be a breeding ground for predators.

Why would they not go there?

Like Don Gordon and his friend from the institution that they used as their hunting grounds.

This is also somewhere Donald Gordon will take Lisa.

One of Don Gordon's victims is Lisa Plum, whom he started abusing when she was just 11 years old.

Don will say that he just wanted to be a father figure to Lisa, which is why he abused her, because both of Lisa's parents were pedophiles as well.

And her mom, Lisa's mom, is the one that introduced her to Donald Gordon.

This is Lisa's story.

What is Glen Eden Sun Club?

Glen Eden Sun Club is a family nudis count, which means everybody gets naked together and it's a resort.

There's pools, jacuzzi, sauna, cafe, hiking, tennis, camping.

You walk into this resort style.

Is it like a hotel?

Is it like a country club?

I mean, I haven't really seen a lot of country clubs.

It's not nice, nice.

It's more, I guess, like camping, but there's grassy area and there are, I think, little cabins.

People even live on site.

But when you walk in, you will see a sign, clothing is not optional.

Oh, so you have to be nude.

If you're there, you have to take your clothes off.

If you even try to throw on a jacket because you're cold.

Well, maybe if it's cold, everyone might put a jacket on, but it doesn't get really cold too much there.

Maybe in the evening people might.

Even children have to get naked.

And it's all ages, from infants to grandparents, like all ages.

It's off of the 15 freeway.

near Lake Elsinore and you'll see a billboard, Glen Eden Sun Club, and you go off on that exit, and it's like a windy road in, so you cannot see anything from the street.

And then there's a mountain, I don't know what the mountains are behind it, so it's kind of nestled there.

And you go up to a toll booth,

and

they're naked there, and you pay your fee or whatever there.

And then you drive into the parking lot, disembark from there.

When you get out of the car, you can walk to your spot and disrobe there, or just in the parking lot.

The first time you went was when you were five?

Yeah.

Who took you?

My mom had a boyfriend, Larry Feldman, that decided we should all go to Glen Eden.

Was there an explanation he gave?

I don't remember a specific explanation for Glen Eden other than

other times he said to us, specifically me and my sister, that he was doing what he was doing so that we wouldn't grow up to be frigid.

And this is a boyfriend of your mother.

Yeah, grown 40-year-old or so.

How long was Larry in your life?

Probably about a year,

give or take.

You go to the nudist camp with your mother and Larry, and what do you guys do there?

Are you guys together?

And then you're walking around the camp, or is it split between adults and children?

My experience has been we go find a spot on the grassy area and people will put out towels and blankets and have a picnic and stuff.

Us kids kind of just took off.

There's two pools, one for not as good swimmers and another for you have to get a dolphin tag to get into that pool.

I don't know if it was only kids.

Seems like it was mostly only kids in the small pool.

Did you want to be there?

Was it uncomfortable?

No, we did not want to go get naked in front of each other.

Yeah, that was like a horrifying idea when it was presented to us.

And especially my brother and sister, you know, said, we don't want to get naked.

That was just not an option.

So you were five.

How old were your brother and sister?

My brother would have been eight or nine and my sister 10.

Oh, wow.

I mean, I thought it was interesting because I was listening to another interview that you did, and I was like, there's no way this resort is still around.

I googled it, and it's still open.

Like, people are going today.

And then I was thinking, okay, well, maybe it's one of one that's still open, but there's so many throughout the country.

There's just so many all-ages nudes resorts.

Do you feel like that is a place where bad things happen from someone?

Well, who wants to be naked in front of kids?

Yeah.

I mean, who wants to see naked kids?

Right.

I know that you're working on passing laws to ban news camps.

Is that like a difficult process?

Like there's a lot of people fighting back against that?

Well, I'm starting the research part and I have talked to some people.

There does seem to be a big resistance for the outreach that I've done to some politicians without getting a response so far.

I haven't made it like my part-time job yet, but all the previous victims are for it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because it's definitely not safe for children because it's a pedophile magnet.

And if you're a pedophile and you know about it, why wouldn't you go?

And they let people go, right?

They may have tried to change some rules now.

I don't know.

But that's who took me.

It was pedophiles.

And then there's pedophiles there.

And then bad things happen on site as well.

When you say that's who took you, pedophiles, do you mean just Larry or Larry and your mom?

Well, my mom, I don't know.

I guess depending on how you define pedophile, but she didn't have a problem

being sexual around us as children.

What do you mean by that?

One day I heard some strange noise in my mother's room and at five I really had no context or idea.

And I went in and again I did not understand what I was seeing other than I was freaked out

but they were having intercourse and but at the time again I didn't understand and I asked my mom are you okay but they had they had called me in the room and then told me to sit down it was not like you walked in and then you freaked out it was they asked you to come into the room

and they just made you sit the whole

okay and watch yeah

Was there any discussion with your mom after that happened?

Did she ever say anything?

I mean, mean, I assume when you're so young, you can't bring it up?

Yeah, I don't remember any discussion other than another time they did that on the kitchen table.

I have no idea why the kitchen table, but I had forgotten this part.

But one of my siblings told me that

Larry asked my brother to take pictures, gave him a camera.

And so it's us three kids kind of awkwardly giggling and just like, you know, looking around

watching.

Do you think that your mom was a pop-file who attracted other p-files?

Or do you think that she was someone who just was so starved for male attention?

Not that it would justify anything, but

I mean, she definitely was different than like Larry or other p-files.

Like they were very intentional and they had plans.

So I had a therapist once tell me that she was vicariously molesting me and us.

There was actually a scholarly article he gave me.

I have it somewhere in a box somewhere.

I keep trying to find it, but I don't know.

Is she like she's a vicarious?

She didn't have any boundaries, no problem.

I also feel like she was a malignant narcissist.

I do believe she was

abused and she has a bad reputation in her family for being an awful scary person.

So,

yeah, I don't know.

In the beginning, it was you, your two siblings that were adopted.

Correct.

Your mother and your biological father originally was the, and they divorced when you were four or five.

What was it like up until four or five as a family unit?

Right.

So I don't remember a lot because we really don't have picture memory until about the age of five.

Okay.

That's, um, we have implicit memory.

What is that?

So our bodies remember, but we, our brains don't start to make pictures with the memory until about then.

Wow.

So most people don't have very many memories at all.

You may have a couple here and there under the age of five.

All I remember really from my early, early childhood is I was a little Episcopalian girl.

And we went to church and I was very devout.

And I thought our priest looked like Jesus.

Honestly, that's all I really remember.

But as soon as my parents divorced, we were no longer going to church.

You and your siblings went with your mom after the divorce.

Oh, oh, oh.

Yeah.

So she

had tried to kill herself.

I didn't know it at the time, but I do remember, this is one of my earliest memories as well, is her laying down in bed and

it was dark in the room and she was just kind of out of it and then my grandma came and stayed with us

for two or three weeks I'm not sure then after that as my brother has nicknamed her Hollywood mom came home

okay

my mom could be very charming very personable very put together and she started having singles clubs meets in her home other single adults.

Our home had to be perfectly clean at all times.

And when she had these singles clubs, we were supposed to basically stay in the room or whatever.

But people would meet us and see us.

One minute before anybody came, she'd be screaming at us.

You know, we'd have to clean and do this and that.

And then someone would knock on the door and she'd be like, hi.

You know, completely change her demeanor.

Did you find solace in your siblings or was it because it was so tough that you guys were having problems as well?

What was that like with your siblings?

Well, I think there was some

solace, but really

not a lot.

I suppose it was probably because of the dynamic that my father set up and my mom

because they were adopted.

Like one time, like my parents participated in what's called parental alienation syndrome,

which is basically one parent's talking crap about the other parent, the other parent's talking crap about them, and you have to like share messages, or and or you know, they're arguing in front of you.

You know, you're like, my mom would say, Your dad, I don't know if I should fully say it, but

likes the F-men and their ass, you know, like to us little kids.

How old are you?

I'm five.

Oh, yeah, like right when you're yeah.

And,

you know, my dad's like, your mom's crazy so anyway all that's going on and one day i felt like i needed a hug

so i asked my dad for a hug and he said no

um

i don't want your siblings

who are adopted to feel bad

so in my mind i don't think i said it out loud but i definitely thought well just hug them too yeah you know

but um

it was always pointed out, they're adopted, I'm not.

They're adopted, I'm not.

So, and one time I was trying to comfort my mom because my mom would kind of cycle from angry, rampage mom to sobbing, sobbing mom.

And sometimes she'd just be up all night.

She was a piano player and she would just cry at the piano.

But this time, She was in her room crying.

I'm trying to go comfort her.

And she said something like, I wish your sister and brother were like you.

Oh, I wish I could just run off with you.

You know, and they're like, and they're just, I could see them looking.

They can hear and everything.

Yeah.

And I felt bad for them.

And I didn't want her to say that.

But so we were kind of pitted against each other.

Did they form almost like an alliance or even that didn't happen?

I don't know.

I don't know that maybe a little.

But I think also on top of that, you know, Larry was also violent and over-sized us because there was more than watching them have sex.

He would single out myself sometimes and do certain acts with him and my mom, you know, to me.

And then my sister in the room alone.

I don't recall him doing that with my brother, but he

lost his temper one day and he told me to make him a bath.

Then my brother comes out of his room saying,

whatever.

My brother, you know, had a little cusser mouth.

And

Larry just did not like that disrespect.

And so he was yelling at him and grabbed him by his ankles and picked him up and dunked his head in the toilet a few times.

So just for clarity, Larry, was he the first boyfriend after the divorce happened?

Yes, there was another another pedal

that targeted me but i he was more like just a handyman friend of my mom but larry was like an official boyfriend was larry the boyfriend that your sister that was the next boyfriend right that your sister caught you guys oh so john john lipper he was not really a boyfriend that's the exact he was the handyman yeah and so i i feel like he was before larry or they were almost like at the same time

no john John, you know again these singles clubs and single mothers are pedophil magnets.

So they're just looking for opportunities and the more vulnerable vulnerable the better right so anyway John started doing repairs giving us ice cream.

You know, we grew up in Riverside and it's hot in the summer and

then he just started molesting me

I was probably in his right age age group.

And your sister had walked in.

Yeah, so he was molesting me.

He had brought me crayons and the coloring book and told me to lay down in a certain place.

And he had his hand up under my dress.

And

my sister comes in the house because I was a latchkey kid.

We were latchkey kids.

We were home alone a lot.

My mom would work in the evenings and it was just free reign.

She called us Lord of the Flies, but she runs in and sees John molesting me and just like gets like really angry and looks at me and what's going on, you know?

And I didn't, again, I didn't have words.

Some people have said, this is why you need to teach kids the proper names of body parts.

I agree with that.

You should teach kids the proper names of body parts, but that wouldn't have prevented.

me being molested or some other children in similar circumstances when your family isn't supportive or they're part of it.

So your sister sees that she's almost upset with you.

And did she tell your mom?

She must have.

And I don't blame her, of course, now or anything, but she's nine, you know, trying to figure out what to do.

And so there was another time that John

had taken me into

a field.

We lived in...

like a little middle-class neighborhood and then there was orange groves and then there was like a horse property.

So it was kind of converting, you know, from agriculture, probably.

So, there were fields, and like he would take us to Thrifty's Ice Cream, and he's like, You want to get ice cream, Lisa?

Yeah.

And, um, but instead of going there, he drove me into a field.

I always remembered that, right?

But then, as an adult, a trigger happened, and then

I had more memory.

And basically, to survive that, I had to do some inner child work.

But what happened is he threatened if I told that he would insinuate like that my mom would die, he would kill my mom.

And again, I really didn't even know what he was talking about.

What should I say, not say?

I don't have the words.

And so

I just

didn't say much.

Could I ask what triggered you later to have my mom's death?

Yeah.

Okay.

And at the time, and

I write about it in the book, it was really weird.

After she died, I started getting like these images of him.

It's like, why?

Why him?

Why now?

You know?

And, but I realized after doing some work, some therapeutic work, that because

he said if I said anything, she would die.

But once she died, there was no need to keep the secret anymore.

Wow.

When did your mom pass?

2007?

But yeah, when my sister, she must have told my mom and my dad, because then

a day or so later, they called me into the kitchen.

My mom, my sister, and John.

And

my sister's the one that's upset, you know.

And she's like, tell mom what happened or whatever she said.

And again, you know, at the time I'm five and I don't even, whatever.

Remember, I just don't have much to say, but I I didn't say anything

what did your parents take from that then they I don't remember anything happening after that other than John stopped coming by and my sister told me later that he

she's friends with his granddaughter or something and that she was

being molested by him too

which isn't a surprise but

at the time your sister's anger was that from was that towards john was that towards the situation?

Was that towards being young and having no idea what's going on?

Right.

I mean, I think all of it, she's young.

She's not being parented, right?

She's seeing bad things happen and her instinct and, you know, is kicking in, her wise self.

And she's probably getting like really frustrated with my parents.

You know, my mother really didn't.

She didn't do anything.

There was no comfort.

There was nothing like that.

And then one day around that time, my dad, I'm in the car with him and he said, I heard you were molested.

Again, what do I say?

I don't even know what to say to that.

And then he said, just don't make a big deal about it.

Why do you think he said that?

Well, now, because he's a pedophile.

He is, for sure.

He's a bad father.

He has no nurturing bone in his body.

He doesn't think it's bad for kids.

Wow.

Probably.

And I don't know what that meant, don't make a big deal about it.

But I remember thinking about it.

Like, what does that mean?

That's so interesting because I think when a lot of people, their parents will tell them not to make a big deal because maybe they don't want it to reflect on the family or maybe they care about what other people think, but it seems like your dad genuinely didn't think it was a big deal.

Yeah, I know that's

a fact.

Yeah.

So John's out of your life and now Larry starts dating your mom or around the time.

He is the first person that forces the entire family to go to Glenedon.

Did you guys go multiple times?

While we were at Glenedon, there was at least a couple of molesters lurking around.

I'm sure there was more, but there was a, I call him the hairy guy.

He was in the little pool, the kiddie pool.

And he had us all lining up and he would pick us up and throw us.

He slipped, right, grabbing my groin area and stuff.

And I just, it hurt, you know.

So he's lining up just children.

Children are all lined up.

And his experience is to play, you know, get tossed in the deeper ant, you know.

Where are any of the other adults at?

Just walking around.

They see it.

They're walking by.

No, no second thoughts about it.

That is so bizarre.

I mean, I did go down a rabbit hole because because I was like, I didn't even know nudist camps for families existed.

So I'm looking and I was trying to understand why people would even advocate for it existing.

And I mean, there's this one place they were doing a QA because I was trying to see maybe the other perspective: is this an establishment that should exist?

Right.

And it was, are children forced to be naked?

And their response was so bizarre.

It was,

force is an emotionally charged word.

In fact, if you force your child to wear a bathing suit, that is also a use of force.

Children have to do things they don't want to do all the time for the greater benefit.

It was the craziest thing I've read in a minute of just

yeah, they're all philosophers.

And I'm sure some people go to news camps, aren't pedophiles.

Yeah.

Just have some weird indoctrination.

But

in the Big Pool, there was what the kids, this is from the kids.

Hey, there's this guy, the doctor.

They call him the doctor.

I don't know if he was a doctor, but he

would wear goggles and just swim underneath.

Oh, my God.

I know people.

And nobody was like, we got to.

Well, us kids.

I don't know what the adults were doing or if anyone told the adults, but we'd be like.

this, you know, when he'd go to swim under or he's there.

We can't really go swimming.

Cause everyone was like creeped out by him.

And so there was that.

And then also,

you know, when you're sexualized early and you're looking at naked people, looking at each other, like kids are starting to try to, you know, act out

prematurely.

Wow.

And that seems not like a unique experience because I was reading online of someone saying they had a term called COG, creepy outside guys, that would try to get into the nudist camp

to look at the children.

So it seems like it's a big issue that they're trying to get.

But let's just keep doing that.

Yeah.

How about if you want to be naked in front of adults, keep it to adults.

Right.

Yes.

Leave the children alone.

So how frequently would Larry force you guys to go to Glen Eden?

We probably went every weekend or once a month.

But then he gave my mom a letter breaking up with her.

A letter.

Yeah.

And which she had us read.

And it was basically he had to break up with her because he just couldn't take us kids anymore.

Wow.

Right.

Your mom made you read, make you guys read the letter?

Yeah.

What's the reason behind that?

Because she's pointing out how we ruined her relationship with this guy.

They were going to get married, you know, and us kids again.

Were you happy?

to hear that letter?

I mean, I felt sad for my mom

because I did.

You know, when you're kids, like before you hit puberty, usually children are just all about their parents and always trying to do the right thing and really care about them.

And anyway, that's how I felt.

But also, I didn't miss him at all.

Life just went on.

And what happened, you know, like when you molest a child, you molest the neighborhood, really.

Right.

So

my brother.

had experienced violence, early civilization,

and

he started to take that out on me.

I think there was something you said that stuck with me.

It was like, when you are labeled as having been used, people feel like you're fair game.

Humans are like that.

Yeah.

Wow.

And so my brother just started, he was kind of like the leader boy in the neighborhood.

My brother and sister were there, tough kids.

Started pantsing me.

We definitely didn't have video games at the time and stuff.

We're always playing outside, hide and go seek and all that.

And it became a game, chase Lisa down and pounce her.

And so they'd rip off my clothes and then, you know, like pin me down and force my legs open and all of that, like over and over, and pretend or try to put objects in.

And just

like thought that was the most hysterical thing.

What is your relationship like with your brother now?

Yeah, so I'll just say

when I

started the healing process, I decided I was going to confront the people I could because I was really pissed.

I started to get really in touch with that.

And although my therapist is like, I don't recommend it, you know, I'm like, oh, well, I'm going to go to it anyway.

But I started to confront my brother.

Out of all the people I confronted, he didn't let me finish and he said, Lisa, I'm sorry for what I did to you.

Do you forgive him?

I do.

I forgive him.

And forgiveness is a really difficult word.

And how do you define it and all of that, right?

But it doesn't erase emotions right away.

Sometimes people prematurely forgive, sometimes they're not open to it.

My relationship with him now is not,

it, we don't have a relationship right now.

He's really struggled his whole life, struggled to be regulated, we'll say.

I wish there was something I could do or to be helpful in that, but I'm also not going to take verbal or otherwise abuse.

How old were you and how long did that last?

So I feel like it happened about the time of Larry.

Maybe when Larry was still around or right after he left.

And it stopped when my stepdad came in my life.

Is this Ray?

Yeah.

Unfortunately, though, the neighborhood kids, like the boys that were involved, I do remember one friend's brother one time was kind of at it.

or, you know, part of the group and then he never came back around.

You know, like he's like, no, I don't want part of this.

But some of, some of the other boys did continue.

So just saying, kids have choices too, right?

And he didn't, he didn't want to be a part of it.

But these other boys, like

down the street, they, I don't know what was happening to them too, but they just took on a life of their own.

Like I'd be riding my bike down the street and they come and pull me off my bike and drag me into their room.

And one time I'm sobbing on this guy's lap and his mom hears, knocks on the door, opens it is everything okay and i'm sitting there like six seven eight i don't know how old i was and she said is everything okay to her sons and they're like yeah it's fine and she closed the door and walked away

so these are other like six seven eight year old boys or they're a lot older they

They were not six, seven.

They were older.

I'm not sure if they were four years older or six years older, but they were definitely stronger than me.

And I'm sure if you're riding your bike and they're pulling you off your, I mean, someone's got to see that at some point, right?

You would think so.

So nobody says anything, nobody, it just keeps continuing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I don't know what the neighborhood saw or didn't see, but we were just kind of wild kids in the neighborhood.

You know, we all smoked, drank, stole what we could from the store,

weed.

But I was a regular smoker at eight.

And who introduced you, just like the other kids at school?

Like, I don't even remember.

It's like my mom was a smoker, she smoked when she was pregnant with me.

I just was born smoking,

um, and everyone smoked then, too, right?

Yeah, um, and you could get cigarettes from vending machines, but my mom always had a carton and we'd just like take cigarettes, and so I don't even remember my first cigarette.

So, Ray comes into your life.

Who is Ray?

So Raymond McKnight, one morning I was going to go to school.

My mom was actually going to take me.

But this guy knocks on the door and I go and open it and he's just like, hey, you know, big old smile.

And he was carrying fuller brush stuff.

Do you know what that is?

Cleaning supplies, I guess, and mops and whatever.

Selling fuller brush stuff door to door.

And

so my mom invited him in, got him some coffee, and they started talking.

And then she took me to school.

And when I got back home that day, he was still there.

But luckily, he was a good guy because he could have totally been a bad guy.

You know, my mom's like, hey, anybody, it's fine.

And so they

stayed together.

And Raymond, he was just,

again, a good guy.

And he started to notice some of the dynamic in the family.

And he was probably the first one that ever told my brother, boys don't hit girls.

Wow.

Yeah.

Like, that's not okay.

And he started to parent us.

Do you feel like all of you guys felt safer, better with Raymond around?

Okay.

Yeah.

But then

he leaves, your mother leaves.

Well, so he was a merchant marine.

He was a cook on oil tinkers mostly.

So he would be gone a lot.

But I guess when he wasn't on a ship, sometimes he'd do sales like Fuller Brush and stuff.

But I was the youngest and he made up a nickname for me.

But he would always call me baby or sugar, you know, like from North Carolina, you know.

Exactly.

But then he's like,

I want to call you vanilla.

And he's chocolate, you know.

But I remember thinking at the time, like, I don't even like vanilla.

I'd much rather be chocolate.

I like chocolate.

But, um, but he wanted that.

And so he'd always say, hey, vanilla.

And

anyway, he,

I guess I cried a lot at night.

Um,

and I also had a problem where instead of peeing the bed, like I wouldn't pee for a long time.

I was just like,

um, so like in the middle of the night, I'd wake up and I'd have to go.

I was in a lot of pain, but he wasn't really part of that.

But when I was crying, at least a couple times, I remember him coming in and picking me up and carrying me and putting me next to my mom.

And then he went to the couch.

Now, my mother never did that on her own.

She just let me cry.

But he,

you know, because he is a good guy, figured, oh, she needs to be with her mom.

But it was that act that was was nurturing, not him putting me with my mom.

Yeah.

But

having Ray in your life, did it make you realize?

Because at that point, you said right afterwards, you didn't really understand that you were traumatized.

Did that maybe put things into perspective or you were still at the age where it wasn't, you weren't processing it?

Yeah, I mean, I don't even think trauma even became a word for many, many years later, at least in regards to childhood.

Although one day I did see a child abuse commercial.

Oh, I was looking at it.

I was like, does that,

am I, you know, am I included?

Do I count?

Like, just kind of a weird first introduction to it.

So, see, advertising works.

Yeah.

That's the first thing that got me thinking about child abuse.

With Ray, I know now, looking back, what he, what we would say in the therapeutic world is he was a protective factor.

Can you tell me more about that?

Yeah, so there's a study called the ACE Study, Adverse Childhood Experiences, which I don't like the way they ask some of the questions.

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But adverse childhood experiences are basically severely traumatizing or stressful events or occurrences that happen in children's lives.

It was actually a California doctor, an obesity doctor, that started it.

At the time, he was interviewing his patients to see if they were ready for surgery and he accidentally asked the wrong question

how much did you weigh at your first experience and the person said 40 pounds and so he was like oh oh I wonder if like he didn't mean to ask that but it's pretty logical now but he started to wonder if child if being molested was correlated to being obese And it is, they've discovered.

But not just that, it's not just 100% correlation, but any adverse childhood experience physical abuse abuse parents divorcing losing a parent parent in in prison feeling neglected or unloved i forget the other ones um i don't like how they asked the molestation question because they asked did someone five years older than you

what what right that's a why that's a big gap it used to be kind of like two years

you can be molested by someone your own age yeah someone just more powerful adults yeah can be molested but of course it's different it's not a child situation But anyway, there's still, it's ongoing across the world study.

What they have found is that the more ACEs you have, the more likelihood in adulthood you'll be obese, have cancer, heart disease, drug, alcohol, addiction, and mental illness.

Again, it's not 100% correlation, but it's a much higher correlation.

And really,

one of the main reasons is when you go into the stress state, fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, your body releases adrenaline, norepinephrine, cortisol, these chemicals that help us in case, you know, a tiger's attacking us or something.

And we need that.

So, because then we numb out, we don't feel it, or we're extra strong, we can lift the car off, our husband.

But you only want to go in it and out.

But when you're under these constant stressors, you're always, your body changes to always being in the stress state.

And that feels normal.

But it's not good for you because then you're always in an inflamed state.

And that's that's like sucks the dopamine or serotonin from our brain, right?

And then we, we're dopamine seekers.

And there's healthy ways of getting dopamine and unhealthy ways, but you know, like drugs, alcohol, all that is quick, quick dopamine hits.

And anyway, but when people have protective factors in their childhood, their outcomes are better.

So it kind of like a balance of healthcare.

Yeah, maybe a little bit.

Yeah, so I really think if I hadn't had Ray,

I mean, maybe, maybe I wouldn't have been able to survive because he gave me a taste of what love feels like, what it actually feels like.

But a protective factor could be a parent, a teacher, a friend, a coach, you know, just somebody.

Like every little good thing that you can say to somebody matters.

It really matters.

Like, like, you're really special or, you know, I can see you're going to do good in life.

Or all of that adds up.

I know there's a guy named Donald.

Don.

He was a family friend of your mom's or just how did he even come into your life?

You were 11.

Yeah, I was 11.

My sister,

she, I guess she graduated high school early, but this is my memory.

She graduated high school and went back to Indiana to visit our grandmother

via train.

And on the way back, she met Don and Jodi.

Being the pet of f ⁇ that they were, they saw a young girl,

you know, I'm guessing this is how it happened, and started talking to her.

Where are you from?

Blah, blah, blah.

Somehow, they figured out that she had been to Glen Eden before.

And they're like, well,

you should come to Glen Eden with us.

You know, and, oh, and you have an 11-year-old sister?

She should go to Glen Eden.

So they come over and meet your mom.

Yeah, but the first time I met them, like my mom said, you're going to go to to glenedon and i didn't want to go to glenedon because i don't want to get naked in front of people and then of course i don't want to see the hairy guy or the doctor or whatever right and then i don't know these people why do you think your mom was basically forcing you to go to gleneden i mean she's a malignant narcissist

is basically vicarious like

She told me she didn't want me to argue with my brother.

We argued too much.

But my brother was beating my ass all the time.

Okay.

My siblings were beating me up.

And I mean, I did my best, right?

But I was the youngest.

And my brother's a tough guy.

So there was always chaos, right?

My mom yelled at us.

We yelled at each other.

It was always like that.

But anyway, she said that I could go with them and then we wouldn't argue.

So your brother's going to stay home.

You and your sister are going to go to Glen Eden with this random couple she met on a train.

Yeah.

Okay.

But really the way it was set up, it seemed like it was just me going, but my sister did go, at least the first couple times, but she had a boyfriend and she was like 16.

So what happened is they show up.

I have to go.

I'm not given the option.

But Jodi, she's like 6'2.

And she was a basketball player.

Wow.

And I love sports.

martial arts and stuff.

But at the time, it was, I just loved softball.

I was a softball player.

And Jodi, of course, looking back now, I see it.

Like, she was like brilliant in her grooming.

But I come out looking at this six foot two, tall, skinny, blonde woman, blue eyes.

And she has one eye that looks the other way.

So I'm trying not to stare at it, but she's super charming.

Whatever.

They, they said, oh, you're an athlete.

Dawn said, oh, you're an athlete, huh?

Like, what sports do you play?

And Jodi's like, I play basketball.

And she said, she was the first woman to slam dunk it in Illinois or something.

I don't know if that's true.

Do women slam dunk?

Anyway, we don't believe her.

Okay, yeah.

But I was like enthralled by her.

He's just like this creepy guy, you know.

But basically, she's just talking, talking, talking, which is a perpetrator technique, which if you, I'll just promote his book.

The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker is a really good book to read to learn about perpetrator techniques so you can better guard yourself against them.

But so she's just talking, talking, talking and saying, you know, well, let's like race out to the car.

I have a basketball, whatever.

So we raced, right?

And she's like, you almost beat me.

Yeah.

I didn't.

And then we go to Glenedon.

And so I am a smoker at the time, but I never smoked in front of adults.

And she's like, here, you can have a cigarette.

I'm like, really?

me smoke in front of you you know and that's how they got me to glen eaten but she just made it all super charming at first so then um we get there and same thing you pull up to the toll booth and the guy's like oh is this your daughter and he's like no but i have this letter from her mom and he's like okay go on your mom went out of her way to write a letter to send okay

Okay, that's

gives them permission to take me.

Wow.

Yeah.

And that's probably how most pedophiles go in.

If there is any rule against a single man or something, they just find like a vulnerable woman, probably.

But all the rules are different.

So everything was a game with Dawn and Jodi.

I said, I don't want to go.

I don't want to get naked.

And Jodi's like, it's fine.

We're together.

And then we get out of the car.

It's like, it's a race.

Who can get naked first?

You know?

So then it was just weird, you know, as usual at the nudist camp, just laying out in the sun and naked people trying to not look at them but you can't help it playing tennis just whatever um yeah that's weird okay yeah that so they just have you all ages playing tennis naked do you feel like when

creepy men are looking like is that something that you can sense at that age too or were you just

what happened one time this guy was in the pool with me and kind of dunking me and i I guess it was flirtatious.

Dawn came down to the pool angry and told me to get out and said that I was acting

or something.

Hmm.

Yeah.

This was later, though.

This was not the first time.

They had already been actively molesting me at that point.

So after this first experience, how did they prey on you and abuse you further?

Like they just kept picking you up for the weekend?

Yeah.

And your mom just let you go go spend the weekends with them.

Yeah.

So basically how it started was um

when we went to the apartment, which my mom said I had to go.

And I just started going to their apartment.

Um same rules as Glen Eden.

Once you step in, your clothes are off.

And so it's Glen

Family Nudice Camps are quite the grooming tool.

Yeah.

So anyway, from that point, you know, I had free rain to alcohol.

They made me alcoholic drinks.

Jodi had me cook with her.

We gave Don drinks and cigarettes.

And then

really how it started was one day Jodi was at work.

I didn't like to be alone with Don, but I was.

And we had just been at the mall and we're in his car.

And

he said, your sister said that you want to have s ⁇ with me.

And I'm horrified and like terrified at that.

And I said,

no, no i don't like you know and i feel like i'm in trouble like like he's like your sister said you know um but i said no i don't want to and he's like oh it's okay you know it's all right and i i said no but i i don't you know like he's probably 40 39 or 40

um and i am 11.

yeah

And anyway, I was super worried that Jodi would hate my guts.

So I said, don't tell Jodi, please.

And finally, he agreed.

Yeah, so I was afraid that Jodi would find out and then hate me because I just, that's what children do.

Yeah.

We're magical thinkers and egocentric, at least till eight, but older too.

Like everything feels like it's our fault.

That's just the way our brains work.

So he said he wouldn't tell Jodi, but we picked her up from work.

She pops in the truck and he says, guess what?

Lisa wants to have s with me.

And I'm just horrified.

and she says oh okay that's fine I just

sunk you know and then

the next thing I remember is just

them trying to talk me into

acts like come in the room and watch that's apparently a big thing

and you can just start by watching and then I had to scoot closer and then eventually participate more and more but it was always

you know, a manipulation, a grooming.

And

Jodi said to me once that if I had a good father, I would want to have s with him.

Okay, so

one of the things that he liked to do was watch a movie called Pretty Baby with me.

I listened to that part of your interview.

And I think the way you were describing it initially, I was so convinced it was like a movie off the dark web

and it's very much a real movie that you can buy online for $3.99 right now.

Right.

Can you tell us about Pretty Baby, the movie?

Right.

So Brooke Shields, the very famous Brooke Shields, was 11 or 12 at the time.

And I'll just say she was not a developed girl at that age.

She looked like a child.

I'll just be explicit.

No pubic hair, no breasts, a child's body.

Okay, but in the movie she is um the daughter of susan sarandon

who is a

at a brothel i guess in new orleans and everyone's just happy and everyone just loves their job right um

but brooke shields is reaching the ripe age of 12 which is where she's going to start working and so they're going to have this auction for her virginity basically and it's a whole group of just creepy men bidding on her.

They bring her out in, like, I don't, I don't remember what you call it, but they're holding her up on a plank or something in the movie,

dressed in white

and looking like a child with makeup on her and like sparklers.

And everyone's like, oh, this is so wonderful, you know?

And Brooke Shields in the movie, I know she was a victim.

Just her character is just happy about all of it, and it's great.

She doesn't show any trauma.

No trauma.

But then the guy that wins takes her up to the room and you see

soft

basically.

You don't see full, but you can tell they're having.

And then she's like screaming and or not screaming, but wincing or whatever.

And then afterwards, she's like a clump on the bed and you think she's traumatized.

Right.

And, but then all the other prostitutes come in and she's like, I'm fine.

And just kind of like she's kidding, you know.

And it's just so great.

And she's totally not affected by it at all.

And then you see her bathing and you see her full naked body.

And they're talking about how they're going to keep selling her as a virgin for a while because they can.

And

then she like, not David Carradine, but one of the guys, one of the Carradines is like, becomes her husband.

And he slaps her and, you know, and.

whatever.

She's playing with dolls.

But the whole point of the movie really is it's showing like it's totally fine, you know to have at that age and make money and it doesn't bother you and so that's one of the things Dom said to me

he said that he was busted for molesting his children but of course it's not molestation it's people that aren't aware of like higher laws and you know

are repressed or yeah um he said he didn't harm his children it the court system harmed his children that's what harmed his children i love the quote when you say all pedophiles are philosophers.

They are.

Yeah, they have a complete explanation why they are living the higher law, why other people are repressed.

They are.

All pedophiles are philosophers.

And he told me too, he said, you know, your mom is crazy.

Like he and Jodi would like interject these things.

And she was.

That's true.

And he knew it.

But they're also.

Right.

But also when you tell a child that, it's going to alienate them more

and cause confusion.

And when you're confused and you're not sure, like

you're not steady, you don't know.

And of course, I really, I know now I couldn't have chosen any differently.

But that's how perpetrators keep people off balance, one of the ways.

I know you have a change.org petition to ban Pretty Baby.

I was trying to figure out how it's not already banned.

Right.

They say because it's

and she was not actively engaged in being

that it's not CSAM, which I think is insane.

Because how is it, how can you justify artistic expression on that?

Right?

That's so strange.

Right, because you see, yeah, and they won't, it wouldn't make a movie like that now.

No.

Or they would get in trouble.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sure some people are would, but not legally.

So he would make you watch this movie.

Yeah, over and over.

Just like here comes the dom.

And at the time, he had a projector.

It started with me sitting next to him here and Jodi there.

And then he would touch us.

And

even on a camping trip we went on, he brought it.

There was actually a couple times, I can only think of one right now, but

where I see now looking back

grooming me to maybe be a prostitute

because, um well of course pretty baby right

um also trying to normalize it and he was always like it would be me doing you a favor is how he framed it to be my my first you know like it like it would be a chore for him and you know we're friends and we're like close so this is like the best way and you know but i was resistant i was always like i don't want to you know and this was just something that he continued to try to do and one time we were um in a city somewhere and they said

so so weird just looking back um we're gonna go to like pick apart or something so you should just wait here in this park i'm like okay whatever um so i'm just sitting in this park up against a tree And then a truckload of men speaking another language

start walking towards me.

Like they park and they start walking towards me and I'm like

you know

and this guy he starts speaking in Spanish hey

showing me his wallet and I'm like I don't speak Spanish and he's like me me

in the truck and I'm like freaked out and I just said no no no and gratefully they left So you think they set that up?

Yeah, I definitely do now.

So, because then I'm sitting there like,

you know, like they left.

I'm upset.

And Don and Jodi finally come back and I get, I get in the truck and I told them what happened.

And Don said, you should have done it.

Wow.

And how long did this go on for?

From 11 to 13.

So we were always naked.

And there was other girls sometimes.

Oh.

Yeah.

The camera was always out.

Yeah, I read that.

Like he was actively taking pictures or it was.

I mean, it seemed like if you're at a family event and people are like, hey, you know, or something, that's what it was like.

But I do remember sometimes Jodi like dressing me up and something.

But again, everything's a game and we're just all happy and having fun together and whatever.

And drinking a little bit here, smoking a little bit there.

They're still molesting me.

But

as time went on, I saw the other girls less and less.

And it was just me and Dawn and Jodi a lot.

One day,

said that,

you know, I could be a model.

And I was like,

I thought very low of myself.

I thought I was ugly and fat.

Not that there's anything wrong with whatever you weigh, but anyway, and I didn't like the idea.

But he's like, no, no, like, I'm going to take you to this photographer's.

But also, some other girls went.

I know that on the way there, you hear a voice.

So you're in the car with Don and Jodi and a bunch of other girls.

What happened?

Like the voice comes out of nowhere.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So again, at this time, I think I'm closer to 13.

And I really didn't know anywhere I was ever going.

Driving, right?

Except for like right where I grew up, I knew that area.

Anyway, I'm just in the back of the pickup truck, just going to those photographers.

Even though I didn't want to, I did.

I heard a voice that said, Lisa, memorize how how to get there.

I just kind of shrugged it off like that was weird, you know.

Then I heard it again, Lisa, memorize how to get there.

And it just felt like really

kind and like, do it, you know, sort of like, really, please do it.

And so I did.

I just, I looked out, opened up the little shell window and I'm like memorizing like it's, this is in Santa Ana, California, 14th Street, 7th Street.

Like I'm memorizing.

And then we pull up and it's like this two-story office building with the doors almost like a hotel.

It's kind of ugly.

And then I didn't really think about it after that.

At the studio, what happens?

The photographer that Don wants you guys to meet,

what was that like?

So we all race up, you know, because it's a game.

And I'm up there and they open the door and this guy is sitting behind this desk and he had a Rubik's cube.

So I said, hey, can I play with your Rubik's Cube?

And he just like coldly met my eyes with his

and didn't say anything.

But just like this

really uncomfortable, you know, like it made me just like look away and I just sat down.

So the pictures were just not naked or anything.

And we got over that.

I would say the next week.

Well, before that happened, I was alone in the apartment of Don and Jody and I heard him talking on the phone with this guy.

And he said, Lisa will do nude pictures.

I said, because it seemed surprising to me for some reason.

I said, no, I won't.

And Don turned and looked at me like, you know,

and shh, you know, because he's on the phone with the photographer.

And he said, you know, sit down.

And he's usually trying to be a Mr.

Nice, fun guy.

And that, that was it.

But then later that week at school, detectives came to my school to interview me.

Don and Jody had gotten busted.

Do you know how?

Now I know that at the time they had what's called Photo Mat.

Yeah.

You used to have to turn in your film to get pictures developed.

And he turned in the pictures of his victims.

Yeah, probably.

Yeah.

He just brought his like role to the Photomat.

Like he thought this is completely normal.

I was

accidentally.

I mean, that's what I heard.

I'm not 100% 100%, but I think I read that in a police report or something.

So the police come to the school, and I know that you had a guidance counselor.

Was she a counselor?

No, I had Mr.

Mason as a guidance counselor.

He was another protective factor.

Okay.

He was super nice to me through seventh and eighth grade, which were very hard for me, very bad.

But

so what?

Miss Brewer was the office lady.

And she did not like you.

She didn't like me because I was always sick.

I did start to ditch, but I started by just being sick.

She was just always like really bitchy to me, really mean.

And so I just kind of gave it back to her.

So I'm in the middle of PE.

I get a yellow or pink slip to go to the office.

And there's her face.

I'm like,

but she was like nice instead of like, you know, and said,

these are the, these are detectives, so and so, and so and so.

And they're, they're here to interview you.

Again, I'm just like,

overwhelmed a bit.

So they ask you questions about Don and Jodi.

And then your mom comes to pick you up from school.

Yeah, yeah.

So by this point, she already knew that the police were talking to you.

Well, like, usually I rode my bike to school, but yeah, that day she was picking me up and they had asked questions and asked me why my mom let me go, you know, and I said, well, I had to go.

She told me I had to go.

And they said, well, we need to, I don't know.

He said, you're going to go to a shelter home, which I didn't really understand, again, at the time that it was because they were suspicious of my mom and going to put me somewhere safe, I guess.

Do you think that your mom knew what Don and Jodi were doing?

I mean, I think so now.

Again, at the time.

I don't know.

But like when we she came in the office and I'm walking out, I guess, to go to the shelter home.

She like grabs me and hugs me.

Why didn't you tell me?

Why didn't you tell me?

And

tell you what, like,

you know, I didn't think about it at the time, but obviously I remembered like all the stuff you did with me too, you know, like, um.

But obviously she was just trying to look good, you know, in front of the police officers.

And like, she never hugged me before.

I mean, if she knew what was happening, do you think,

like, what would she get out of her daughter being abused?

I guess I'm struggling to understand.

Do you have any ideas or?

I always just had the feeling that my mom,

like, whatever attention she could get, maybe.

But also...

I couldn't, I didn't really see that growing up because you can't really face that demon yet.

But I do think that she somehow,

I don't know, like projecting, like parents often project onto their children unresolved issues.

And maybe she hated herself ultimately for whatever possibly happened to her.

Punishing herself vicariously through me or,

you know, early wounds, like emotional wounds that happen in the first few years do create personality disorders.

And she definitely had a a personality disorder, I'm sure, you know,

histrionic, but narcissist.

And just very mean.

But also, you know what?

People have choices to be mean or not.

And I don't know.

Only God can sort all that out.

But she was just always

maybe a power thing.

Maybe she gained some sense of power

by trying to demolish me in a sense.

So they're arrested.

Did you have any feelings in that moment?

Felt guilty.

I felt sad.

I felt confused.

So that was the feeling in the moment.

When did it change?

When did you feel like I shouldn't feel this way?

Did it take years?

Yeah, it took years.

In this shelter home, you get in there and the girls are like, what are you in here for?

Oh, I was beaten.

Oh, I was molested.

And I'm like, what am I in here for?

I don't know.

You know, but we concluded I was molested.

Well, I had found out about the photographer at this point.

And I thought, what?

Does that mean they don't love me?

You know?

What exactly happened to the photographer?

He was taking photos of kids.

Yeah, so.

When I was first put in the shelter home, like the next day and was interviewed by Orange County detectives, one of the detectives, somehow it's just me and him in a room.

And he said, Do you happen to know where this photographer is?

And how I even knew to ask the questions, right?

Or find me or anything else.

I don't know.

But he said, Don and Jody don't know where this photographer is.

And I was like, I remembered, I memorized how to get there.

And before I could say that, he said that he was known for killing kids.

Killing kids?

Yeah.

He literally told me a girl was found in a dumpster and a boy was tied to a chair.

My whole life, I was like, it feels like I'm making it up when I say it, you know.

Years later, the detective that

one of the detectives was very kind to me and let me make it so I could play softball, took me out to dinner with his family.

But I called him years later and I asked him about it.

Did you know?

And he said, yes, I did, but I knew he was a snuff filmmaker, but I didn't want you

i didn't want to burden you anymore but they got him

i don't know oh so that detective in the room told me that and then i said i know how to get there

That's crazy that you heard that voice.

I mean, I.

And you took them there?

And I took him there.

You guys were in the car, drove there.

He said, let's go right away.

And

I said, turn here, turn here.

I tried to look at it last time I was in Santa Ana or on the map remember yeah but I would if I saw it if it was still there but I didn't find because the streets are actually parallel and that anyway but I took him there we literally all three of us two detectives and me go up to the studio door they just let you go to the door they did and they knocked on it and I am thinking at this point what if he sees me or could he kill me someday you know but no nobody answered.

And they didn't try to break down the door.

They didn't do anything.

They just took note, you know, and we left.

I'm so sorry.

So when Don and Jodi were on the phone talking about, oh, you will do the photos, that was him that they were talking to.

Yes.

What was the timeline of that?

And then when they were arrested, like a week.

And they were trying to sell photos?

Or what?

I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know.

Wow.

It's like crazy how they all find each other

and they operate inside of a community and they're like...

Probably some of them meet at nudist camps.

Maybe.

Oh, I'm so sorry, but I was reading his file, Don Gordon, and they were saying that when he was let out briefly on parole, he had made friends with another child molester in the hospital.

That's another place, yeah.

And then went to a nudist camp together afterwards, after they were both released, and competed to see how many children they could molest.

Wow.

I don't know how he was let out.

Did anyone tell you anything?

Because I know that you testified

for another little girl's case who was also abused.

Well, what happened is...

You know, back at the shelter home, I just felt gut punched.

Like, were Don and Jodi going to kill me?

Did they love me?

Or, you know, because I mean, it was all love, love, love, you know, like they love me.

And

I couldn't even picture his face anymore.

It just disappeared from my memory.

And,

you know, and that summer I was in a shelter home a couple times in a foster home and whatever.

But

years later, when I'm a new mom, a young mom, out of the blue, Orange County contacts me and asks me to testify on behalf of Don's newest victim.

Now, from 13 to 23,

I don't know if I was 23 or 24, but that would be about 10 years.

He only got 10 years.

So, hopefully, the laws have changed as far as,

I don't know,

severe, more severe penalties for child molesters.

It turns out he didn't even serve 10 years.

He only served like five,

because probably good behavior, but they're always on good behavior when your chosen victim isn't with you, right?

In the jail.

He doesn't want to fight, men.

They asked me to testify on behalf of his newest victim.

Ended up, he pled and they said I didn't have to, but that was a complete re-triggering.

Well, you testified at 23 or you didn't testify?

She did not testify.

I did end up going to court.

You did just because it was like a psych up for weeks, you know, and my husband got time off of work and I had a babysitter and I hardly let anybody babysit my kids ever.

We sat in the courtroom, and then we went out to dinner and just tried to decompress from it all.

Was he in the courtroom?

Yeah, that was your first time seeing him since.

Since, yeah.

What was that like?

Um, it was scary.

I didn't ever want him to see me again.

That was the big thing, you know.

So, it took them weeks after they asked me to do it

to tell me that he

pled.

So, I thought I was gonna testify.

And that's really, really triggering, really activating.

Wait, why did it take weeks?

They just didn't know?

I think what happens is they build their case.

Oh, well, now they have some power.

We have a victim that's willing to testify on behalf of your newest victim, right?

And then they probably use that as some sort of currency.

And then he's like, I'll plea.

And then they tell the victim that, or whoever, we don't need you to testify after all.

And then they offer nothing.

No mental health, no

nice, like, hey, we really appreciate it.

You know, there was no tone like that, like

no acknowledgement that that could be really triggering.

So

we went to court anyway, just to

have a completion process, I guess.

And

I just...

Kind of hid behind my husband and

he looked over in our direction, but I don't think he saw me.

I don't know if they use my name, even.

Maybe, maybe I knew at the time, but

I don't think he would have been expecting me to show up necessarily that time.

So there's a point where you move and then you run into Jodi.

Yeah, I actually ran into her once in Riverside, and I did ask her, Are you still molesting children?

Well, and I had my children with her.

What a courage.

Oh my gosh.

I get when I'm pissed, I think and clear it now.

But I'm like, you know, by that time, I've been training in martial arts.

Come on, Jodi.

I'm an adult now.

Now what?

You know, that's how I felt.

But she's like, oh, Lisa.

And then whatever.

She just said, oh, Lisa.

Yeah.

Like you're just asking her a normal question.

Yeah, like silly you.

That was a whole bizarre thing.

But so that goes away.

And why is she in Riverside?

She was supposed to be in Santa Ana.

I don't know.

People move, right?

But

then later, we move from Riverside to the High Desert.

And we're living in Apple Valley.

We just, okay, we just moved to Apple Valley.

We moved to Atalanto.

And then, like, the day after we move into Apple Valley, I see her at the grocery store, in the grocery store parking lot.

Did she see you?

Did you say anything this?

No.

So, like, I'm flipped out.

I have my toddler in the back seat and I just park more strategically and I wait.

And I'm going to follow her because like, is she my neighbor?

Did I just move in where she's next to me or something?

You have kids now.

Yeah.

And so.

And I had heard on the radio six months or so before that Don Gordon and some other guy were released into a Santa Ana neighborhood, Hiris Sanders, the neighborhood neighborhood did a neighborhood watch, and whatever.

And I called the neighbor, the radio station, and asked them,

Yeah, is it Don, my Don Gordon?

My Don Gordon.

But they didn't ever respond.

So I'm like, whatever, whatever.

Just let it go, you know, because it would have been about 10 years.

Because he's only getting like 10 years at a time.

This is ridiculous.

Right?

Okay.

I know.

It's exhausting.

And so, anyway, I run into Jodi,

and I, so she comes back out.

Whenever I see her in that scene, I see that famous Sasquatch scene, right?

That's how I see it.

She's not going to miss her.

I mean, she's quite the caricature, right?

But

she lost me.

I don't think she knew I was following her, but I don't know the streets.

I couldn't keep up with her.

But I had heard about Megan's Law.

So I asked my friend to go with me.

And at the time, Megan's Law did not give address, only zip code.

And you had to go to the sheriff's.

Oh, so I went there.

I said, Jodi Jones, Jodi Gordon, what?

Because they got married after they got busted.

For me, you can't testify against your spouse.

That's crazy.

I thought they were married before they got married basically in jail.

Yeah, how do they even get to do that anyway?

That's crazy.

They can do all kinds of things, right?

Yeah.

So that they wouldn't have to testify against each other.

Okay.

So,

anyway, the lady at the Megan's Law Sheriff Station said, no, I don't see her.

Now, I remember because I did go at this point, my mom made me go to Jodi's and Don's when I was 13 court.

And the detectives or whoever said, she doesn't need to go.

We don't want to re-traumatize the victim, right?

But because my mom, this is the opportunity for her to, whatever.

So, but I remember I heard at Jodi's sentencing that she will have to register as a offender.

Yeah.

But they couldn't find her on the offender registry.

And I said, but she's supposed to.

But when I was a child, I was molested by her and Don Gordon.

And she's like, well, let's look up him.

And so at that time, you had to have the exact name too.

So Donald Lee Gordon.

It wouldn't come up, Don Gordon.

And she's like,

kind of looked at me and she's like, where did you just move move from?

Atalanto.

And so what had happened is probably was the Santa Ana, the radio news clip, probably was him.

And then he got kicked out and they put him in Atalanto.

And Atalanto,

there's a lot of kids.

Yeah.

Even so,

I'm just like mind blown.

Like he was put to Atalanto.

And we just moved from there.

And so this lady's like, okay, well,

I'll get his parole officer to contact you so we meet up he

basically

got mad at me that I lived in the high desert and didn't tell them but you're not the one that

right but he's not supposed to be within 25 miles of a victim but they don't even alert you they just expect you to constantly alert well I don't I mean I think it's it's supposed to be different now and maybe it was supposed to be different then but nobody ever told me any anything at all ever

that i should let them know where i live or that they're gonna tell me when he gets out like that's supposed to be part of victims rights now but he was kind of a jerk

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But at the time, I'm like sort of freaked out because I still think about the photographer a bit and Don

and

what would happen.

I don't know.

You know, I see Jodi and I have little kids.

And so I asked the parole officer, can you please just search him?

Just on the off off chance?

Yeah.

Less than 1%.

Okay.

Maybe it's less than 1%.

But that Don knows I'm an Adelanto or was in Adelanto or what I look like now or what my kids look like.

If he has a picture,

you know, and I feel like I must sound crazy when I'm asking him.

But I asked him, he can search him anytime, anytime he wants.

And he said, okay, I will.

But a couple, I don't know, a week, two weeks go by.

I don't hear anything.

So I asked him and he said, no, I didn't search him.

And I always think, man, he should have just lied to me and said, yeah, I didn't find anything, but I don't recommend lying.

But he just like, no, I didn't.

And I'm getting more and more upset.

I'm crying.

I'm like, but you said, and I just wanted the off chance just in case.

I just wanted some relief.

And, you know, he's just a jerk.

And so I said, well, I want to speak to your supervisor.

And then I give the supervisor the story and he says, you know, you really need therapy.

Yeah, I appreciate your shocked reaction.

Yeah, I wanted to say, no,

really?

But also, how condescending, right?

And so, yeah, so then I'm like, super triggered, right?

Whatever.

So all those negative interactions are happening.

And then some angel police officer, because I probably got on the phone and I was calling around, gives me Jody's address.

Out of the blue.

Yeah.

Also, I figured if Santa Ana can kick him out and notify the neighborhood, why can't Atalanto?

So I tried to get it going in Atalanto.

They kept gaslighting me.

They kept brushing me off.

They were condescending.

Never got a neighborhood notification.

I circled the streets in Atalanto looking, but I never saw him or Jodi.

Because I told them, look,

they're together.

Why are they both in the high desert?

Nope, not supposed to be together because of Pearl, whatever.

I'm like, okay, whatever.

Telling you.

So anyway,

they gave me Jodi's address.

So at the time, I was going to school to be a therapist, right?

I went to school over many years, one class at a time.

She was, she lived near the college.

So they weren't, she wasn't living where he was in Atalanto.

But not only did Jodi live by the college, but I would run into, I literally ran into her in the doctor's office.

This time, I didn't go up to her anytime.

And I...

have my kids and you know and so she was um sometimes i had my kids with me or one of them or and she in the doctor's office was with an old person.

She was an in-home health care aide.

And you're not supposed to do that as a registered offender.

But I also ran into her in Walmart.

And so anyway, the Victorville Police Department said, okay, we're going to go and check on her.

And I said, she is supposed to be a registered offender.

And she wasn't just in the kitchen baking cookies.

She was very involved.

And she should have had a second strike with that victim that I was to testify against in my 20s.

and in California at the time, I don't know now, but would have had a third strike not being a registered offender.

Yeah.

But they tell me, No, she didn't realize she was supposed to be a registered offender.

She didn't realize it, yeah.

Or she forgot, or yeah.

I'm like, no,

no,

it's so infuriating that they're just living a normal life after.

So you were going to school to be a therapist.

What was the reason for your your decision?

Is it to help yourself, help someone else?

Yeah, I mean, both.

Like, I did start, you know, when I got really bad postpartum depression and all my trauma

came out.

And I started to go to therapy out of desperation.

I became clean and sober,

you know, because I spent my whole childhood drinking, smoking, methamphetamines and stuff.

And at 18, I got clean, but then I started to crave again when all the traumas started to come out.

And I'm like, so I started doing 12 steps.

And then I went to therapy.

I actually got in a use recovery group, which was very helpful.

And I realized I wanted to be a therapist.

But also, like, I knew in my heart, like, I didn't want to do what the molesters wanted.

It didn't feel right, but I didn't have the words to explain it.

I didn't have the science, you know, like I needed to un-indoctrinate myself from all of that.

And gratefully, it was never a temptation to me to be a molester.

I had a natural instinct to protect, you know, but I didn't know how to explain why they were wrong.

And so I definitely went for that and to find really the best way to heal, the fastest, bestest way to heal.

In the process, though, I'm always kind of like arguing with God because I felt like, go, go be a therapist, Lisa.

I'm like, but no I can't you know like you have the wrong person I used to have such bad anxiety I couldn't even look people in the eye oh that was me I had to have such a hard joy yeah yeah

martial arts helped a lot with that but um

actually it's one of the top trauma treatments really martial arts yeah and um judith herman wrote trauma and recovery and she talks about it and i just listened to gabor mate talk about it too or somebody else but um one reason is like you are now in charge of the violent situation and you're

rewiring your nervous system, basically.

I guess that's the other reason, too.

You're rewiring your nervous system.

But also you gain some confidence, like, well, maybe I could take care of someone.

Some people, maybe, not everyone, but if that person...

But I grew up fighting.

Getting beaten up on and my brother would tell me to beat up this person or there was always like a fight.

And so in my brain, it's like always going to come down to a fight.

I have to remind myself, I won't necessarily, but it's always there.

Like it's going to come down to a fight.

Going back a little bit, I know in your previous interview that you've done before, you were saying how

there was a time where you thought that maybe you would take care of Jodi yourself when you saw her.

Yeah.

So martial arts did help me feel like I was probably too confident.

But, you know, I was young in my 20s.

I had all this rage.

I learned that all this depression and irritability, which nobody named it PTSD at the time, but I was always like,

is it PTSD?

Yeah.

But

I,

you know, anger or anger turned inwards is depression.

And you got to put the anger and the feelings where they belong.

That doesn't mean you confront people or it doesn't mean you beat them up or anything.

You can journal it out.

You can visualize it, right?

anyway when i started to feel depressed i just assumed i guess i'm feeling angry and and so

jodi dawn whoever my parents journal i journaled journal journal i didn't want to nobody ever wants to at first no none of my clients not none of them but a lot of people don't want to journal but it's like it's really helpful if you can't do anything else what happened with jodi is She did have to register as a s Pennagal.

Okay.

Okay.

So then now she's on Megan's Law.

But I still am running into her.

My emotional state was questionable at times.

And I would feel,

you know, the PTSD depression, rage.

And so I thought,

you know, let me just take care of it.

I actually called my husband once, like, circling Jodi's house.

Like, I could just take her out because she's going to reoffend.

I told the Victorville police she's going to, she'll do it on her own without Don.

And they're just like whatever

so i imagined that i could kill her a couple different ways you know and that i'm no good anyway i'm screwed up you know what do i think i'm doing being a therapist i'm not a good mom not a good wife like let me just kill her and then you guys you can move on you know i'll be in prison and you know because

I just lose my mind half the time with the situation.

But I didn't.

You know thou shalt not kill right

um

but i did indulge in some fantasies a few times killing her my dad my mom or torturing him or whatever and i'm not saying that's totally unhealthy like there can be a healthy element to that you know

don't act on it don't follow through necessarily right necessarily you shouldn't kill people okay but um

anyway, the feelings need to go where they belong.

And so I'm glad I didn't act on it, but

she did reoffend.

Yeah, I found out on Megan's Law.

So it was while she was in the high desert.

I forget the exact name of the charge, but with a teen.

So then I tried to call because I'm pissed a lot, right?

And I'm just going to call people.

And they didn't answer, they didn't call back, of course.

But I said, oh, she she reoffended.

Look at that, you know.

But I could check on Megan Saw and then she disappeared from Meginsaw.

How?

Well, first, I'm like, she's from Illinois.

Let me see.

Yeah.

She was in Illinois and her charges were lower.

I call them

and I said, she's high risk.

Just so you know, oh, the lady was nice.

I really appreciate you letting me know.

I'll do it.

But I can, but nothing was ever done.

But then she disappears off Megan Saw again.

And another perpetrator, another case,

Glenn Lowe, that in my teenage years, I also, that was a situation, was on Megan's Law.

Glenn, Don, and Jodi, it gave me a certain sense of some control.

Like, I know where they live.

I'm not going to move next to them.

Right.

But Glenn and Jodi got off Meghanslaw.

A loophole.

They might have to register.

I don't know though.

Why would I know?

Why would anybody tell me anything?

But they won't show up on the public registry.

Then what good is that?

Right?

The police have some idea.

But maybe they're off that, too.

I don't know.

But it was, Glenn was full-on,

total perpetrator, right?

Jodi was.

You hear people say, I've heard people say, that poor guy, he was only urinating in public and got on Megan's Law.

No.

No.

It's really hard to prosecute anybody for any offenses.

So many perpetrators get off scot-free.

I would be shocked if anybody's on Megan's law because they were urinated in public.

No, that's what people, those are stories people tell.

Did you confront your dad about any of this?

I did.

Yeah.

Back in my 20s,

I realized.

Okay, he didn't protect me.

So anyway, I'm just trying to confront anyone I could.

So I told him about John, which he, you know, told me don't make a big deal, right?

But whatever, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened.

And he said, you had quite an extensive sex life.

I'm just like standing there.

And then he said, and children under the age of three don't remember.

And so for me, like we talked about memory, I have some memories and I'm not so sure.

A little, I don't know.

It's in that category of, I don't know, I can't say, but I'll heal it anyway.

I'll do inner child work.

I'll have compassion for that part.

I'll trust my body, right?

But I don't know for sure.

But so when he said that, it's like,

what

is he confessing?

Anyway, I wouldn't put it past him that he did something to me and my siblings when we were little.

I think you mentioned in an interview that you do know someone, or at least someone has told you that they were a victim of your father.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he also, um, my dad was a high school teacher.

Yeah.

He

did come out as gay.

And I'm not saying gay people are.

Yes, of course.

But

some males do prefer male or female.

And so my dad is orientated towards males.

So he

molested my brother.

And

another high school teacher at the same high school got busted for molesting.

And at the time, I know it seems silly thinking back now, but unindoctrinating myself and seeing my parents for who they really are

took a long time.

I called my dad when this Mr.

Jeff My Brain.

Anyway, he was a drama teacher at Ramona, whatever,

got busted.

It was in the newspaper.

I said, dad, Mr.

got busted for molesting a boy.

You know, like outrage.

My dad said,

like, he's mad at the system, right?

He said, every boy, every teenage boy is going to get masturbated sometime.

Like it's, you know, what men do with young men sort of thing.

Like it's totally fine and normal.

My dad would say very bizarre things to me throughout my adulthood.

And I didn't leave my children alone with him ever.

And eventually I did cut off the relationship.

But when my dad was in a relationship with a man, Jot,

Indonesian guy, and he was really nice.

and I was always like why is it with my dad but anyway

my dad would rent a beach house every once a week like every summer and we just had our first child he's just a little infant and we went down there and

stayed with him but that's actually sort of off track so whatever you want to say but but but we did interact okay so anyway though when Jot died um he had diabetes like type one

my dad was heartbroken.

And so my husband and I went into LA and cleaned out his apartment.

Actually read the eulogy for my dad because he couldn't do it.

And it was all gay men and Buddhist monks.

And

but what we found in his apartment was profile material.

Somebody said, don't say Nambla, but Nambla, North American Man Boy Love Association.

Apparently they're still going strong and very

retaliatory.

But there was that material in the apartment and also like a daddy son magazine or I forget what it's called.

But I looked at it and it's all about weird fantasies.

Yeah.

File material.

So do you believe Joe was also part of it?

I mean, I don't know.

I'd like to think not, but he was doing something weird with my dad.

I don't know if he was profile.

You know, they were, I'll say it back to the beach house.

They were very super, super concerned if we were circumcising our son or not.

Yeah.

That's a very strange.

Oh, because it'll reduce pleasure or something.

Like, according to them.

And that would be like the worst thing we could do.

And so we weren't sure what should we do?

What should we not have all these discussions, you know?

But I'm like,

they tried to look to see you know like keeping

i know

so is your dad still alive no okay and i know that you said that you were very triggered when your mom passed did you ever get to confront her or no i did actually

so i know this is hard to hear okay

um but going back to larry Larry,

that memory that I don't remember so well going in with my mom and Larry and then the end.

The end was I had a vibrator.

Larry gave me my mom, whatever.

So when I confronted my mom, I was in the backyard and again, I'm sort of like, I don't care who hears,

whatever.

I was in it and I said, mom, why?

Why did you let Larry give me a vibrator at five?

And she's like, shh, you know, like the neighbors were out.

And I, I just got louder.

But that's really it.

Other than

there was always, my mom was always kicking me out, even as a little girl, and give me my baby book.

Get out.

You're not my daughter anymore.

Like always that sort of thing.

And as an adult, too.

Okay, you're no longer my daughter, blah, blah, blah.

All these letters.

And

it was just like, exhausting.

You know, and I was trying to be a good Christian.

I didn't know what the right thing to do was.

And you honor your mother and father.

What does that mean?

And, but my family needs to come first.

It's always a trigger.

So I did end up cutting off the relationship with her.

Finally.

I mean, obviously I'm very naive, I guess, but like there was no

before both of them passed, there was no,

I mean, you're their daughter.

There was no apology.

There was no.

Never.

The last words my dad said to me was that I was an asshole.

But

on my mom's deathbed, I did go visit her.

And I visited my dad.

Ironically, they couldn't speak.

No.

It's kind of a relief, right?

Yeah.

But also,

I didn't say anything mean.

You know, I didn't.

Wow.

I just, I wish them peace.

But to the idea of me feeling...

I don't don't remember exactly what you said but I've done a lot of healing okay I'm much less triggered by things now but um

at the time you know it was all just a

constant trigger like I that's why I had to cut them off for my own well-being everyone's well-being just for the sake of it um

but

being a therapist do you feel like there are certain situations or patients that trigger you and that you would recommend or refer to a different therapist?

Or has it almost been like a dual healing process?

Well, it is healing for me to always reiterate self-regulation, inner child work.

Like it's always being, you know, like reminding myself.

But I don't really get tricked.

I mean, I can't say not at all.

I definitely can relate to a lot of clients.

I couldn't see a social predator.

It's really never come across.

I've never had that opportunity.

Maybe in mental health, like community mental health.

I may have seen a offender and not known it.

But I would not choose or put myself out there as a offender therapist.

Yeah.

Wow.

And you mainly do marriage and family counseling, right?

No.

I got licensed in California and at the time you were either a social worker or a marriage family therapist.

They didn't have professional counselor at the time.

And I didn't really know about social workers being therapists, whatever.

Really, mostly I do work with individuals.

I do have some couples, and I've worked with families, but mostly I like to work with trauma survivors.

And so the benefit is of me being a trauma therapist.

First off, I used to think I'm an anomaly as a therapist, like having been a trauma survivor, like maybe I shouldn't tell, or I'm going to get in trouble, or people will think that's crazy.

But most everybody is surviving something, right?

and we get into our occupations for a reason and so there are a lot of trauma survivors that are therapists but you want someone that's working on themselves and that has some healing under their their belt right what the benefit is for me as a therapist is i know that i've been down some dark

caverns and i've found my way out

I am more able to hold people's emotions, like encourage them, be there for them, just validate them.

Like people sometimes they just need to be listened to and validated, not offered a solution right away, just and feel for them.

That's like when people get outraged on my behalf or, you know, like have empathy, that's very healing.

You know, you don't want to meet somebody with like, they tell you something horrific and you're like, okay, yeah, tell me more.

It's better.

It's okay to say, what?

You know, like, no way.

Meet people where they're at in their brain.

But I tell people, if you're looking for a therapist, ask them if they're working on themselves.

That's a good one.

I'm going to write that down.

Have you tried to reconnect or look up where Raymond is at since then?

Well, so Raymond left my mom when I was 12 because he couldn't deal with her anymore.

But we reconnected in adulthood.

What?

Yeah, I have pictures of him with my sons.

Yeah.

Did you like look him up?

I I think my sister kept in touch somehow with him.

Wow.

And then I don't remember the initial me getting involved, but he lived in one of the times in Compton.

That was a whole story.

But we went and saw him there.

And then in Long Beach, he lived.

And then he came and stayed with us in Apple Valley for a while.

And my kids see him as the best grandparent for sure.

Is he still around?

No, he did pass away too.

But he was in his 80s.

Yeah.

And so he still called me vanilla and sugar.

And

my kids call him chocolate grandpa.

That's so cute.

Oh my gosh.

You wrote a book.

When did you start writing it?

Well, I felt like from early on I should write a book, but I was like, why do I feel that way?

You know, maybe it just,

maybe am I attention seeking?

right but yeah journaling the journaling turned to the idea of a book like I'll make this a book someday but then I got to the point where I'm like you know I think it was for my own healing but then the feeling kept coming back write a book right so I was trying

but ADHD and or just I'm not a natural writer I don't know I didn't get it I know I have a master's degree but I didn't get a good high school education I failed out a junior high in high school I did not earn my diploma but I'm glad they gave it to me I found a coach editor that has been helping me write.

And I've just been refining it.

I've been working with her like four years.

Wow.

Four to five years.

But I just had a bunch of journaling stuff, you know, and we had to take a lot out of the book.

But you are looking to hopefully release it.

Because I know a lot of people say when they read about other survivors' experiences, it's they feel less alone and maybe they haven't gone through the process of talking to someone about it.

So,

yeah, I did that a lot too.

Oh, you did?

Yeah, I read a lot of memoirs and stuff, and I did feel validated and you know, curious.

And also, in my memoir, it's also a narrative non-fiction where I'm incorporating a therapist's voice.

Oh, that's very cool.

Okay, so it's like

telling her what she needed to know.

That's a big part of healing, getting getting in touch with your inner child.

You know, and rescuing them.

Okay, so as people are reading it, it's like they can also feel and see the steps to healing maybe more clearly.

Is that some of it, yeah.

Like I'm gonna have to write another book too because I was trying to write like two books at once.

But yeah, it's informational, you know, because it's really important for people to understand what consent is and that you can't consent when your brain isn't fully developed.

You could be an Einstein genius child, but you still can't consent because emotional development and all of that is different from IQ.

Wow.

And you're working on banning, hopefully starting to ban nudist resorts for children.

Yeah.

I think that's a fight worth fighting as well.

That's crazy.

But our listeners are going to, I know that they're waiting on

timeframe or just any range?

Possibly January.

Okay.

They're going to send alerts.

They're going to be emailing you.

Okay, yeah.

And I will definitely put it on social media, on my website, and all my other social media.

I'm just not sure which publisher yet.

And I'm doing some final touches.

Oh, my gosh.

Is there anything else you'd like to share with the people listening?

Another thing that really helped me, thinking about the protective factors, people,

whatever good you can inject in a child's life doesn't have to be about abuse and trauma, but like help children dream and believe that they can do what they want to do, whatever that is.

And like there's good things to come.

And I always held on to hope that there was something good to come.

And that even when I,

the depression and everything hit me, believing the therapist, like you'll get through it, and there's good to come.

Always having something positive to focus on, not toxic positivity, allowing people to express and heal and get into that rage and feel it all and do what you need to do, but know that you'll come out of it and keep a visualization of yourself where you want to be, what that feels like, what that looks like.

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