“I Gave Birth To 4 Of My Father’s Children From The Age Of 15 Yo” - The Story Of Aziza Kibibi

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Speaker 3 There were times I plotted killing my father, thinking of committing murder.

Speaker 1 He went to a Diddy party.

Speaker 3 So he says that he'd been invited to a white party. Yes, Puff Daddy.

Speaker 1 So you're 15 when you're you're pregnant for the first time. Did you know that you were about to give birth?

Speaker 3 I did not know I was having labor pains. What it felt like was I was having menstrual cramps, very mild, and then I felt like I needed to use the bathroom.

Speaker 3 My family, we lived in one room in the house that we were renovating at the time, and everyone was in that one room asleep on the mattresses on the floor.

Speaker 3 Got up in the middle of the night to go outside of the room.

Speaker 3 We didn't have any working plumbing or toilets, so we were using the bathroom on Home Depot buckets, went and sat on the bucket thinking that I had to defecate, that I had to go to do a number two,

Speaker 3 and I started pushing.

Speaker 3 not thinking that what I was feeling were actually labor pains. And as I was pushing, trying to go, water splashed from between my legs all across the floor.
And I screamed out for my mom.

Speaker 3 She came running out and she grabbed me. Then she screamed for my dad.
He came running out and he looked between my legs and he said, her head is right there. Aziza, do not push.

Speaker 3 So they carried me back into the room. By that time, the commotion had woken up my siblings and the dogs.
I remember hearing them barking. And my father just kept telling me,

Speaker 3 do not push, do not push. She's coming too fast.

Speaker 3 And I'm there laying on the mattress and i'm doing my best to try to hold her in but my body was not cooperating and i ended up pushing unwillingly and my baby just shot out of me and my father caught her

Speaker 3 so

Speaker 3 He said that I had torn because she came so fast. By that time, I was only 16.
I got pregnant when I was 15, but by the time I had my daughter, I was 16.

Speaker 3 And my body just hadn't matured enough. So I tore.

Speaker 3 My breasts were not form developed enough to breastfeed her. So when the milk started coming in, I was extremely engorged.
I didn't have nipples to feed her. So it was a whole thing.

Speaker 3 But looking at her, looking at this baby that came from me, I fell in love with her. She had these big, beautiful, round saucer eyes.

Speaker 3 And once all of the commotion settled down, my parents and my siblings siblings went back to sleep I just stayed up with her and just looked at her and I fell in love and I cried and

Speaker 3 I thought about what got me to that point and even though it was rooted in a whole lot of trauma and pain

Speaker 1 you know I felt like wow finally now there's somebody to love me When you had your first baby, did everyone in the family know that this was also your father's child?

Speaker 3 None of my extended family knew. So my mom knew, yes.
My siblings knew.

Speaker 3 Even before I got pregnant, my father told my brothers and sisters that he was keeping me and I was not allowed to have a boyfriend and they had to watch me and tell him whenever, if anybody ever tried to talk to me.

Speaker 3 So yes, they knew by this time.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 it was just something that was accepted.

Speaker 1 Did anything change after you had your first child?

Speaker 3 I I would say yes. Well, most definitely yes.
I wouldn't just say it, most definitely, yes. I already felt a sense of purpose, I guess, because my father weaponized my brothers and sisters.

Speaker 3 He told me that, specifically, my sisters, he told me that if I did not tell what he was doing to me, if I didn't fight him, then he would not molest my siblings.

Speaker 3 That didn't last for very long, but for a good four to five years, you know, my father did not touch my sisters. I kind of had a sense of purpose where I accepted that this was the sacrifice.

Speaker 3 Whatever suffering I was going through was a sacrifice that I made in order to keep them safe.

Speaker 3 But then after I had my daughter, that definitely increased because now I was her mom and I was determined not to do to her what my mother did to me. And that was essentially to do nothing.

Speaker 3 The other thing that changed was my relationship with my mom. Now that my daughter was here and my father

Speaker 3 had kind of labeled her royal blue blood, right? He put her up on a pedestal. Then my mom became jealous.
My father believed in hitting his children for discipline. He would not hit my daughter.

Speaker 3 at all he completely got rid of that whole belief system with her but he was still beating my my siblings he was still beating me And I think that created some animosity in my mother.

Speaker 3 So that was something else that changed. My relationship with my mother was already strained, but it had kind of reached this kind of plateau of this is just the life that we're living.

Speaker 3 And I accepted it to a certain degree. But

Speaker 3 it definitely changed even more after I had my daughter because then she started having or started expressing more animosity.

Speaker 1 The abuse starts when you're eight years old. Yes.
Before you're eight, can you walk us through the family setup and what your life was like up until the abuse starts?

Speaker 3 So I could go back to as far as I remember, is what I remember, which actually is pretty young. My parents met when they were teenagers in high school.

Speaker 3 My dad was 18 and my mom was 17 when they had me, then they got married. So as far as my memories are concerned, we lived in the attic of my grandmother's house When my mom got pregnant with my

Speaker 3 first sister, but third child, we moved downstairs to a small apartment that was connected to the house, but it was bigger than living up in the attic. Our life, I remember a very happy childhood.

Speaker 3 Yes, as I said before, my father believed in punishing you know, his children by beating them. So I definitely remember him beating me when I was little if I misbehaved.
I remember

Speaker 3 that if I tried to go downstairs to see my grandmother when we lived on the third on the in the attic, then he would catch me and he would whoop me then.

Speaker 3 I remember tearing up a mango tree that he was growing and he beat me then. So I remember those things.
And I think because they were traumatizing even as a toddler.

Speaker 3 But then as I got older and we moved downstairs,

Speaker 3 I had a happy childhood as far as i could remember i was allowed to play with my cousins i was allowed to go visit my grandparents and my father was very involved in our life he he was determined to give us experiences that I don't think were normal for black children in Patterson, New Jersey.

Speaker 3 So I grew up going blueberry picking and going to visit the Statue of Liberty. And then we were homeschooled.

Speaker 3 So my cousins, they would complain all the time about going to school and hating school, but they just thought it was so cool that we got to stay home.

Speaker 3 So all of those things, we turned out to be like the cool kids in the family and

Speaker 3 really had a lot of fun with it.

Speaker 1 The homeschooling, was it your dad homeschooling you guys? And you're the eldest.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 I think you mentioned like your dad would teach you and then you would teach your siblings.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 That is a lot to take on.

Speaker 3 It was.

Speaker 1 What was that like?

Speaker 3 It was stressful. The first child that my father delivered was his third child, but my first sister, right? There was a brother between her and I.

Speaker 3 And she was born feet first.

Speaker 3 And my father always said that she would be like a problem child because she was born feet first.

Speaker 3 And I still maintain that my arch nemesis

Speaker 3 born into the family as my sister. So I had to teach her how to read.

Speaker 3 And she gave me the most difficult,

Speaker 3 difficult time.

Speaker 3 She challenged everything. She would try to tell on me, get in trouble.
She refused to do her homework.

Speaker 3 So yeah, having that stress, being responsible for having to teach her how to read, write, do math,

Speaker 3 because it came with the threat of my father. If

Speaker 3 my sister was not at a certain level by a certain time, then I would get punished. You know, yes, the stress became, the stress was a lot.
I just accepted. I was the oldest daughter.

Speaker 3 I accepted it as my responsibility and I just did the best that I could.

Speaker 1 Why did your dad decide to do homeschooling? Was it like he didn't think the school curriculum was good or was it a separate reason? Was it to shelter you guys in?

Speaker 3 So what he told us was that the school curriculum wasn't good, especially for African-American people. He felt that this public school education did not suffice for his kids.

Speaker 3 And his experience, he would tell us horror stories of what he went through in school as a child, being bullied and teachers not liking him.

Speaker 3 So, he kind of created this view of school that was just tough and struggle, and then it not being adequate for him.

Speaker 3 And he didn't think it was adequate for us. So that was the reason that he told us.

Speaker 3 I feel like looking back, yes, some of it was a manipulation, was a way to keep us sheltered, but that's in hindsight.

Speaker 3 Doring, he definitely said that essentially the public school that we had access to was not good enough to educate us.

Speaker 1 Closer to when you're eight, you're being homeschooled, you're teaching your siblings everything, you're kind of forced into this role of an adult in the family. How does the abuse start?

Speaker 3 I think it's safe to say it started with the physical abuse because we, as much as I loved my father, I was definitely afraid of him. And he was involved with us.

Speaker 3 We would play, we'd run around the house, play hide and seek. He was a very hands-on dad.

Speaker 3 But when he got angry, he took it out on us. He would beat us with belts and take turns with the belt.
He taught me algebra holding a kung fu slipper in his hand.

Speaker 3 So if I got the answer wrong, he would slap me with the with the kung fu slipper. But of course, at the time as a child, just think, well, this is how your parents discipline you.

Speaker 3 So inclusive of him using corporal punishment, he also grounded us. So if you did something wrong, you couldn't watch TV, you got locked in your room, like all of these things.

Speaker 3 And even then it progressed to starving. So it's a little fast forward.
I was a teen. Well, I wasn't a teenager.
I think I was about 13.

Speaker 3 When my father first bought the house in East Orange, he would take us there to do the renovations. We'd had to clean up slacks, rip down walls, do all of like the hard labor.

Speaker 3 And we would have to, my brother and I would have to complete a certain amount of tasks by the end of the day. If we did not complete the tasks, the punishment was that we didn't get to eat.

Speaker 3 So he started to to employ now these starvation methods and his child rearing and

Speaker 3 you know it just i just feel like it got worse and worse from there so i was already afraid of him so by the time i'm eight years old you don't want mommy to tell daddy if he was acting up because then you'd get a bad beaten or get some kind of severe punishment and usually the punishment just never fit the crime Your mom during all of this, she's more of like a quieter parent, like not as involved?

Speaker 1 Or?

Speaker 3 No, she was definitely involved. She was there because even with the education was to align it with regular school.
It was like my mom was kind of the teacher and my father was the principal.

Speaker 3 My father taught the hard subjects like algebra and any of the sciences and technology, but my mom focused more on the English and basic math.

Speaker 3 And she would check all of our work and give us our assignments. So they worked hand in hand.

Speaker 1 How did the molestation start?

Speaker 3 So one day my mom sent me to talk to my father in their bedroom and he was commending me, which was rare. He told me that I had been being very responsible.
He was proud of me.

Speaker 3 He was, as far as my schoolwork, My mom would grade our work. So I was getting A's according to her gold stars.
And he just told me that he was very proud.

Speaker 3 And then he told me that he had to show me how to be a woman and this is what all fathers did with their daughters and then he took me in the back room which was the closet area that separated our apartment from my grandmother's house and he laid me down and he performed oral on me You're eight, so you don't know what he's doing.

Speaker 1 Did you believe that this is something that normally happens? Because that's what he said, or did you have this?

Speaker 3 I had had an icky feeling, right?

Speaker 3 I had an icky feeling because, from what I understood and what I had been taught by my mom specifically, was that no one was supposed to look at my private area, right?

Speaker 3 No one was supposed to look at my private areas. Mommy to help clean and daddy whenever something was wrong, right?

Speaker 3 Something was wrong because he was the person that kind of diagnosed sicknesses and gave us herbs and things like that.

Speaker 3 So, for this this behavior, I was uncomfortable. As his daughter, I can't protest.
I can't argue against it. So, it more felt like that.
I did believe him.

Speaker 3 I believe that all dads did this with their daughters because he is who I got all of my information from and all of my knowledge from.

Speaker 3 So, when this happened, yeah, I accepted it. However,

Speaker 3 while he was going down on me, I felt very scared. I didn't like the feeling.
He asked me,

Speaker 3 do I like it?

Speaker 3 And I was afraid to tell him that I didn't like it. So what I told him was that, well, I don't want him to do it anymore.
That was my way of cautiously answering him.

Speaker 3 He kept doing it anyway and then eventually stopped. So, so yeah, I mean, I knew I didn't like it.

Speaker 1 How frequent is the abuse initially?

Speaker 3 After that one time, I would, he did not abuse me again for probably about a week. I thought that that would just be the only time in my mind.
I'm like, oh, okay, I guess I know how to be a woman now.

Speaker 3 And what's interesting is that my father, he limited what we watched on television. So we were only allowed to watch educational shows like Reading Rainbow, 3 to 1 Contact, PBS, essentially.

Speaker 3 And he was really into films he was really into movies so he would rent movies or we'd go to the movies a lot and anytime a adult scene or any kind of scene would come on he would my mom would cover our eyes and so then to then have this other activity that technically only adults are supposed to be having here I am now

Speaker 3 a kid participating in this activity, but I did not, against my will, of course, I was not allowed to watch it in a film. So that kind of got confusing.

Speaker 3 He molested me again about a week after the first time.

Speaker 3 And then after that, it was almost every night, almost every night.

Speaker 1 I mean, if it's every night, was your mom, did she notice at this point? Was this when she notices or is it later?

Speaker 3 My father told her. My father told her, but he had been molesting me for a a while before he actually told her.
So he started molesting me at eight. He told her when I was 10 years old.

Speaker 3 But by that time, he was raping me.

Speaker 3 So what he told her was that he was molesting me to help my skin condition.

Speaker 3 And though he was raping me as well, he didn't tell her that part. And she believed it.
She did. She believed it and she accepted it.
And I mean, if anything,

Speaker 3 it made it worse, which is

Speaker 3 something that happens with children who are being molested the stress of it affects their health i had untreated asthma um so even though my father considered himself this holistic herbalist guru i was sick very often i had really bad eczema i had horrible allergies every summer i spent a lot of time in bed but he did he at certain points as the abuse got worse he i would be sick barely breathe breathing he would molest or rape me saying that this was getting rid of the negative energy that was causing me to be sick so when he told my mother that and she believed him

Speaker 3 you know to a certain degree i was like well i guess it makes sense for you to believe him because at different times he was telling me the same thing um as the one suffering and experiencing it no i didn't believe that because it certainly was not working.

Speaker 3 But she accepted it.

Speaker 1 Was there some sort of religious manipulation going on? Because I know he would tell you guys that he's the prophet. Is that around this time?

Speaker 3 Not for us, not for the kids.

Speaker 3 For my mom, I suspect that, and you're bringing up some things that I probably should talk to her about, but I suspect that he was because he has always been a spiritual person.

Speaker 3 He's always always considered himself a spiritual person. And a lot of people in the community saw him as that as well.

Speaker 3 He would go to the local park and just have these talks about black people in America, what their role is and God and God coming and empowering black people.

Speaker 3 And, you know, so he had that whole perspective.

Speaker 1 Was your dad's choice to be a polygamist also connected to spirituality or was it?

Speaker 3 I don't think so. When my father started practicing polygamy, it actually started with him just cheating on my mom I don't know between them he just decided to switch and said it's easier to say well

Speaker 3 I'm practicing polygamy because Africans practice polygamy you know it could have just been an excuse or a manipulation but he actually started by just cheating on my mom Was your mom open to polygamy or no not in the beginning I could feel the tension I mean I was young but I could definitely feel the tension I heard the arguments.

Speaker 3 So, initially, she wasn't, but then she acclimated. She was in love with my father.
I think that that is one of the things that kept her with him for so long. She does come from a Jamaican background.

Speaker 3 My grandmother is Jamaican, and my grandmother's family is very proud. They love to keep up appearances, like that's really important to them.

Speaker 3 A combination with my mom being ashamed about my father cheating on her and then him loving her.

Speaker 3 I think those things mixed together then just kept her with him and made her accept what he was telling her in a lot of ways.

Speaker 4 I have a question. When you were eight, when the first time he molested you, do you think that was his first time molesting a child?

Speaker 3 A child? That's a really good question.

Speaker 3 I'm going to say I think so.

Speaker 3 My mom ran a daycare center in my grandmother's basement,

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 he wasn't always involved with the children because he worked a lot.

Speaker 3 And then eventually, he, when my mom became more successful at it and her services became more in demand, he just ended it completely. He told her, well, she could not.

Speaker 3 babysit children anymore for income

Speaker 3 and i don't aside from my father being physically abusive to other children, I

Speaker 3 never got the feeling or witnessed him doing anything that felt weird or I felt like it was weird. Or even by the time he started molesting me,

Speaker 3 it was such a new idea. It was just like so foreign to me.

Speaker 3 And I could understand even as I got older, there were other things that I experienced just as a child that it was like, oh yeah, well, I kind of remember seeing when this happened with, you know, so-and-so, one of my cousins, or,

Speaker 3 but this was just so out of left field. So I don't think, I don't think he did, but

Speaker 3 with his mind frame, you honestly never know. You know, you honestly never know.
A lot of people often ask me, well, was he molested as a child? He never shared that he was.

Speaker 3 He did tell me about when he lost his virginity. He seemed to be pretty open about that.
And it was with someone else that was a couple of years older than him.

Speaker 3 So I really believe that this was a new, a new thing.

Speaker 1 And he wanted your mom to stop the daycare because it was becoming too successful. So like a control thing.

Speaker 3 Yes, yes. And this happened with quite a few of her ventures.
She also used to do hair. She used to do like hair extensions for women.
And when she started excelling in that, then he'd shut it down.

Speaker 3 She also designed clothes and started making clothes and having fashion shows. Initially, he was fully supportive.

Speaker 3 But then as soon as she became more successful and things started taking off, he would shut it down.

Speaker 3 So every time the next step would happen, my father would shut it down. And yes, it most certainly was a form of control.

Speaker 1 Meanwhile, he was invited to the Grammys.

Speaker 1 Was he always in that line of work? Was he always directing for musicians?

Speaker 3 No, he started as an interior designer and cabinet maker for very wealthy people in New Jersey. And then he started his own company.

Speaker 3 And it was through that company when he started meeting celebrities and producers.

Speaker 3 And one of the producers who had listened to his music was on the Grammy board and invited him and my mom to the Grammys.

Speaker 3 And I think after he got that little taste of being around Michael Jackson and Prince and all of these, you know, major people, he decided to focus more on producing music.

Speaker 3 And then before you know it, people started asking him to direct stuff for them.

Speaker 1 He did one really big music video. How did that happen?

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 that was in the 90s it was killing me softly by the fuge

Speaker 3 and he

Speaker 3 met the fugies

Speaker 3 i think had a party or something our house had been struck by lightning and burned down and through that transition

Speaker 3 he met this guy who saw him building up the house and was impressed and my father did what he normally did he told him about all of his ideas and technology, and really impressed this guy.

Speaker 3 And he said to the guy, told him that he wanted to introduce him to Wyclef Jean, who at the time had a music studio in East Orange.

Speaker 3 So he went, met with him, won him over with all of his ideas. Apparently, they were about to start a new album.
And then our house burned down.

Speaker 3 And he maintained the relationship with them until it got to the point he pitched them enough that they said, We want you to direct all of our music videos for our album.

Speaker 3 And Killing Me Softly was one of them.

Speaker 1 He went to a Diddy party.

Speaker 3 He did. This was before, I guess, Diddy was super successful.
This was late 90s, and my father had already had, you know, mover and shaker within the industry.

Speaker 3 He was getting called to do different people's videos in RB and hip-hop. And one day he comes home and he says that he'd been invited to a white party and it was

Speaker 3 yes puff daddy I think at the time he was called puff daddy right he was invited so it was a whole big to-do my mom made him a new outfit I had to do his hair it was a whole big to do and he came back home and had

Speaker 3 Very interesting stories very interesting nothing as severe as like you know the crimes that diddy's committed but it was he found his people. Let's just say that.

Speaker 1 While he's out doing that, going to Diddy parties, how often are you socializing with anyone outside at this point?

Speaker 3 Not often at all. The only access that I had to people were

Speaker 3 people that my father was dating, so his girlfriends,

Speaker 3 which cycled all the time, and people that he worked with. Like, I spent a lot of time around the Fujis, but it was under his eye.
And the only reason why I was there was because I was the caterer.

Speaker 3 So he had his production company and I did all the cooking. That's why I was then around these people.

Speaker 3 I could not do any of those things outside of my father's, my mom's, or my brother's presence. So I was always being watched.

Speaker 3 So, yes, sometimes I was around people, but I was always watched by someone.

Speaker 1 By the time you're about 10, because you're still so young, do you feel like this this is normal still? Or about when do you realize this is not normal?

Speaker 3 By the time I was 10,

Speaker 3 I felt like

Speaker 3 I wouldn't say not normal because

Speaker 3 my

Speaker 3 life and my family was my normal, right? So, technically, me not going to school wasn't normal, but this is what it was.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 it didn't feel normal because it was hurting me.

Speaker 3 That was my measure for it not being normal. I'm 10 years old.
My father was in his 20s. He's a grown man.
So it hurt. It hurt.
It was stressful. My father would keep me up all times of night.

Speaker 3 And I still had to get up in the morning to

Speaker 3 teach my siblings and make them breakfast and write affirmations. So I was getting like two hours of sleep a day barely.

Speaker 3 So no, that was not normal. Those things were, I could not accept those things as normal because they were hurting me.
By the time I was about 12, and it was after

Speaker 3 my father

Speaker 3 believed that

Speaker 3 we were vegetarian. but my father loved to eat very rich desserts, cheesecakes, chocolate cake, cookies.

Speaker 3 And he loved Junior's cheesecake.

Speaker 3 And he would buy them, but the kids weren't allowed to have them because our palate was not sophisticated enough, according to him. That was his words.

Speaker 3 Our palate was not sophisticated enough to appreciate the flavor of Junior's cheesecake. Something how I remember that verbatim.

Speaker 3 So I decided

Speaker 3 I was going to, in the middle of the night, sneak a taste of his Junior's cheesecake. And when I turned around after scraping the side of the cheesecake, I turned around and he was standing there.

Speaker 3 He caught me.

Speaker 3 I was 11 years old

Speaker 3 and he took me by the arm and he dragged me into our bathroom and he sodomized me

Speaker 3 and he held my mouth and he hit me across the head and he told me,

Speaker 3 Don't ever take his cheesecake again.

Speaker 3 So after that,

Speaker 3 I decided I was going to run away. I decided I was going to run away.
It took some time. I didn't actually make an attempt until I was 12 years old.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 when I packed all of my things,

Speaker 3 felt that they were distracted enough.

Speaker 3 And I decided to, I was very brave. I decided to go out

Speaker 3 next door, which was the space between my parents' room and my grandmother's house,

Speaker 3 go through my grandmother's front door. And the reason why is because

Speaker 3 our front door was in the living room. So I had to put my siblings in the living room to watch TV while I go through another exit.

Speaker 3 Turns out my siblings saw me. And by the time I got to the front door, I turned around and my brother was there.

Speaker 3 And he said to me, Well, Aziza, if you run away, what's going to happen to us?

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I felt so selfish because i hadn't thought about it before i just knew that i needed to leave but then it was just

Speaker 1 yeah if

Speaker 3 daddy was supposed was to find out that aziza was gone he would definitely blame my siblings because they had already been tasked

Speaker 1 with

Speaker 3 having to watch me and making sure I didn't talk to people. So I knew that

Speaker 3 the consequences of me leaving was going to impact them greatly. Plus, by then, because I did start questioning my father what he was doing,

Speaker 3 he had already started telling me that, well, if I did not fight back or I didn't tell anyone, then he wouldn't touch my sister.

Speaker 3 So those kind of manipulations and grooming tactics was already in place.

Speaker 3 But I felt like, how could I not have thought about

Speaker 3 what would happen if I was to leave?

Speaker 3 So I did it. I turned around.
I

Speaker 3 begged my sister specifically, who I knew would tell on me, not to tell, that I tried to run away. And we continued as normal.
We continued as normal.

Speaker 1 That's a lot of responsibility and guilt for when you're 11.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Did you ever feel like it's unfair that only you were carry that?

Speaker 3 I wouldn't say I isolated that specifically as unfair. I felt that everything was unfair.
I felt that the housework that I had to do was unfair.

Speaker 3 I felt that the fact that I got in trouble more than anybody was unfair.

Speaker 3 I would, I loved fairy tales. One thing my father would let us do, he would take us to the library and he had to approve all the books that we read.
I started to find

Speaker 3 different versions of Cinderella, the African version, the Asian version, the Russian version, like all these different versions of Cinderella. I felt like it was me.

Speaker 3 You know, I felt like I was this girl who

Speaker 3 had all of this responsibility and was being bullied. And then plus, also,

Speaker 3 my mom started blaming me for what my father was doing to me.

Speaker 3 She told me that I stole her husband

Speaker 3 because

Speaker 3 even though he had all these other girlfriends, she could not compete with a child because she was not a child and my father liked children. So I am the only one who was capable of taking her husband.

Speaker 3 So our relationship was strained by then.

Speaker 3 I started acting out at different points. I was not bathing, taking care of my hair, wearing dirty clothes.
That was my way of trying to be less appealing to my father. My dad liked pretty girls.

Speaker 3 He definitely had a type. So to try to deter him from abusing me, I was like, well, maybe if I'm ugly, then he won't abuse me.

Speaker 3 That didn't work because then I would get in trouble for my mom for not bathing or for not doing my hair. So there was always this tension and back and forth between them.

Speaker 3 And yeah, I thought it was unfair. I just thought it was unfair.
I remember I asked my mom,

Speaker 3 did she only marry my father because she got pregnant with me? Because I felt like it was because I was born that all of this stuff was happening.

Speaker 1 Did your mom ever show any inkling that she was not. approving of what your dad was doing and not in like the jealousy sense

Speaker 1 but in like this is my child

Speaker 3 she did one time that I witnessed

Speaker 3 She found out that my not only my father was molesting me but one of his girlfriends was as well and it happened to be one that she didn't like very much

Speaker 3 So when she confronted him about it, he beat her with a belt and that was the only time that I saw her stand up for to me stand up for me, so to speak

Speaker 3 but after that she didn't again

Speaker 1 do you think it has more to do with you being molested or this other woman partaking?

Speaker 3 I think it was more about the other woman because what she said to him was,

Speaker 3 how could he let her touch me?

Speaker 3 It was because she didn't like her. So she had already accepted him touching me.
But then at that point, she was like, well, how could he let her touch me?

Speaker 3 I mean, my father was abusive to her, to my mom as well. He was also abusive to this woman so he he was just an abusive person overall even in his romantic relationships

Speaker 3 but this was the only time that i have heard my mom like stand up for me but it didn't go anywhere you said there was another woman that was also abusing you is she also a pedophile or my father but he was a sexual deviant he was a sexual deviant I know this from personal experience.

Speaker 3 This woman specifically had,

Speaker 3 I guess you can say, questionable sexual tastes

Speaker 3 that he encouraged. When the first time he molested me with her,

Speaker 3 She didn't do anything. She just watched.
He called her into the bathroom. I was using the bathroom.
He called her into the bathroom and he raped me. And he asked her, How does it look to her?

Speaker 3 And he bragged about, and I'm 10.

Speaker 3 He bragged about the fact that I could take it all. So his words bragged about the fact that I could take it all.

Speaker 3 And she just sat there like with this smile on her face and was like, oh my gosh, it looks so good.

Speaker 3 And then I do remember her touching my shoulder at some point.

Speaker 3 And then he stopped. And then the next time I had interaction with her was the following weekend.
She would come and stay the night every weekend.

Speaker 3 So then the following weekend, he got me up, brought me into the living room, and she was there as well. And she came up and she kissed me.

Speaker 3 And that was the first time I had an experience with someone of the same sex.

Speaker 3 I preferred her over him

Speaker 3 because he was rough. So, as weird as that sounds, it was like, well, if you had to choose one of two evils, I preferred her because she was gentle.
He was rough. He was heavy.

Speaker 3 You know, he penetrated me. So, but with her, it was soft kisses and gentle touches.
They were both abuse, of course. I had no choice in the matter.

Speaker 3 Yes, the fear was still there because I'm a child with two adults doing things to me that I had no say in.

Speaker 3 But if you was to ask me, well, Aziza, which abuse would you prefer?

Speaker 3 Definitely her. And that's what it was like.
It was like having that confusion and conflict to say, well,

Speaker 3 I am in this situation where I have no power,

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 who do I choose as if I was given a choice? Well, which one do I prefer? Which abuse do I prefer? Then it was definitely her.

Speaker 1 How long was she abusing you for?

Speaker 3 Up until I got pregnant with my oldest, with my daughter.

Speaker 1 While all of this is happening at 13, your dad wants you guys to stop studying?

Speaker 3 Yes. Did align with the fact that we were renovating the house.
So before we moved out of Patterson, out of the apartment next to my grandmother's house,

Speaker 3 he purchased the house and we was just going there as many times during the week that he didn't have work so because he wanted to focus on this he just comes into it was my brother and i was in our bedroom and he just came and said no more schoolwork no more schoolwork y'all don't need to do any schoolwork we're just focusing on building the house Then he came with a threat.

Speaker 3 If he caught us doing schoolwork, then there would be consequences. If I could not teach my sibling, my younger siblings anymore, there would be consequences.

Speaker 3 So the reason that he gave us was because we were working on the house, but I don't believe that that was the real reason.

Speaker 3 By the time we moved into the house, and the reason why we ended up moving into the house before it was finished, it was long from finished,

Speaker 3 is because

Speaker 3 there were

Speaker 3 things happening on my mom's side of the family, which is where we lived.

Speaker 3 And they seemed to be more

Speaker 3 what can i say they were questioning a lot of things

Speaker 3 there was a huge argument between my mom's brother and my father he pulled the gun out on him so there was just more tension and more tension he just packed everyone up all of our stuff and we moved

Speaker 3 into the house in east orange

Speaker 3 There were,

Speaker 3 while some places didn't even have a roof, holes in the floor, there were no walls, no windows.

Speaker 3 And that's where we were and we continued to work from there and then you said there was 10 people total in that room it was about it was about 10 people by that time

Speaker 3 so it was between nine and ten of us and I say between nine and ten because then I had my daughter right so then that ended up making up making it ten so yeah it was about nine of us so it ended up being 11 of us because my dad's girlfriend who he was molesting me with she was living with her mom but then at some point she came and moved into the house as well and when you guys are living in that house all of you guys are sharing one room is he still molesting you yes

Speaker 3 yes now by that time

Speaker 3 it was a

Speaker 3 everybody has to leave the room so he could have sex with whoever me my mom whatever girlfriend or he would just do it different places in the house there were there were other even though they weren't finished but the house was massive.

Speaker 3 It had like five bedrooms, three or four bathrooms, a huge shape. So it was a massive house.
So he would just find places.

Speaker 3 And even before we moved there, there were the times that he would take my brother and I only to go and work.

Speaker 3 And then he would give my brother something to do. And he would take me to the attic and rape me.
And it would be freezing cold. Like, because my father worked on the house, we worked on the house.

Speaker 1 Didn't matter spring summer fall winter after he rapes you I mean everyone just acts like nothing happened

Speaker 3 um

Speaker 3 pretty much I think a lot of people when they think of rape they think of the violent crime of rape right

Speaker 3 but there are different forms and essentially it's

Speaker 3 taking

Speaker 3 a person's right away right to their body.

Speaker 3 You're having sex with a person. I feel like that terminology is so mild compared to what's actually happened, but you're having a sex with a person against their will.

Speaker 3 And whether that looks like molestation or intercourse or some form of forced oral sex,

Speaker 3 it's against the other person's will.

Speaker 3 So, sure, my father me, it took time, it progressed. I was a child.
He had to

Speaker 3 use different things inside of me to stretch me. And there was a whole process.
Was that all ripe? Yes. I didn't have a say.
I didn't have to say.

Speaker 3 I had to do what he told me to do or there was consequences. So now, yes, by the time he actually penetrated me with his penis,

Speaker 3 I didn't have a say still.

Speaker 3 So then when my mom found out,

Speaker 3 She yeah, she continued on. She just continued on.
She didn't witness it. So for her, it was something that was just told to her.

Speaker 3 When it was told to my siblings that my father was keeping me, they already knew what sex was because as part of our education, he had already been molesting me.

Speaker 3 And I do believe this was his way of starting to groom my sisters. He exposed himself to.

Speaker 3 all of his children and he gave us a demonstration of what penis was was and the scrotum and the urethra and where the sperm comes out and the penis going. Like he gave all of that as

Speaker 3 part of our

Speaker 3 education using himself. He also practiced on Saturdays.
And here's the thing. He went in and out of different religious belief systems.

Speaker 3 He chose to, as his form of celebration, on the Sabbath day, we rested, but we did it in the nude. So the entire family walked around the house naked.

Speaker 3 During this time, no, he was not molesting my sisters, but he was getting every opportunity to molest me.

Speaker 3 And I believe that he used that as a way to get everyone more comfortable with the idea of being nude around each other.

Speaker 3 Anytime he delivered his children, everyone had to get naked so we could greet the child in our birthday suit.

Speaker 3 So, you know, he would come up with these philosophies that seemed to make sense, I guess.

Speaker 3 But looking back, I was like, all of this was just preparing everyone for this very sordid lifestyle that he ended up having.

Speaker 1 And your book is phenomenal. And it's so fascinating how you're able to write where I was going through so many emotions.

Speaker 1 And there's this one part where you talk about how your dad is on the toilet and he would

Speaker 1 bring your mother in and go through his philosophies.

Speaker 1 Was that something that you guys had to do frequently?

Speaker 3 Yes,

Speaker 3 way too frequently. Way too frequently.
We thought about, when you think about being triggered by smells,

Speaker 3 my father on the toilet. And

Speaker 3 my brother and I would talk about it. My brother, he was no longer with us.
We were very, him and I were very close.

Speaker 3 We were only born like a year and a half apart. And that's, we would talk, we would despise when daddy would call us into the bathroom for a lecture while he was sitting on the toilet.
It was just the

Speaker 3 it was a horrible thing. And sometimes he would have my mom in there for hours, for hours.
And we only had one bathroom. This was while we still lived in Patterson in the apartment.

Speaker 3 So no one could use the bathroom until he finished.

Speaker 3 So I'm laughing now, but it was,

Speaker 3 he was, he was very outrageous. He was outrageous in a couple of ways, in quite a few ways.

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Speaker 1 When did you know you were pregnant?

Speaker 3 Um, I missed two periods. I missed two periods.
The first one, I didn't really pay much attention to. My periods were

Speaker 3 they weren't irregular, but it was not normal for me to miss a period. And now, I don't know, maybe I was pregnant then, but just too young to carry the pregnancy.
Um,

Speaker 3 but yeah, after the first month, I missed my period, and then when it didn't come the second month, I said something to my mom,

Speaker 3 and that's when she thought she was like, I might be pregnant. And then she went and said said something to my dad what was your mom's reaction was it

Speaker 3 indifferent

Speaker 3 yeah I would say indifferent she didn't seem like she was upset or I think by then the the abuse and her knowing about it had been gone on for so long I don't think

Speaker 3 she would have to expect that I'd get pregnant eventually. And I don't know what conversations her and my dad had about it.

Speaker 1 And what was your dad's reaction?

Speaker 3 My dad was,

Speaker 3 he was a little difficult to read. I felt like initially he didn't really believe that I was pregnant.
So he didn't have much to say.

Speaker 3 I remember standing there and my mom told him that she thinks I'm pregnant. And then he was like, oh, well, we'll see.

Speaker 3 Maybe for him,

Speaker 3 two missed periods wasn't enough. But then,

Speaker 3 morning sickness set in and it said in bad and he completely accepted it. And then

Speaker 3 the next time I saw that he really had a reaction was because his girlfriend,

Speaker 3 she was living with us at the time, brought up the possibility of the baby having deformities because

Speaker 3 we were close relatives. And he had a very strong reaction.
He got really angry. He yelled at her and he was like, What, what the F are you talking about?

Speaker 3 And she got scared. And then she says, she read at some point that if two family members had a child together, then the baby would come out deformed.

Speaker 3 And aside from just walking away angry, that was it.

Speaker 3 Then the rest of my pregnancy, he was

Speaker 3 a lot milder, I guess. He was still ripping me, but by then I was so conditioned to it.
It was just a regular thing.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I would say he was more gentle, but that's how he was with pregnant women. Whenever my mom got pregnant, for the most part, he treated her the best.
He did not hit her.

Speaker 3 He has beaten her when she was pregnant before, and she did lose the pregnancy, but it wasn't a common thing.

Speaker 3 Like we knew that if you were pregnant, it pretty much protected you from him, his abuse, his physical abuse.

Speaker 3 So he was.

Speaker 3 he was very catering he made sure that i had whatever i wanted to eat he you know gave me extra favor i guess you can say um up until yeah until i gave birth When he was so upset about his girlfriend bringing up the potential that your child would have complications, where was that anger coming from?

Speaker 1 Like, what do you think?

Speaker 3 I think it was something that he didn't think about.

Speaker 3 I think my father considered himself the authority on everything.

Speaker 3 So it felt like he didn't think about it. And then for it to be something negative or that he deemed negative, I think that's what angered him.

Speaker 3 Like he really felt like a little surprised by this theory

Speaker 3 because I don't believe he

Speaker 3 really did any research or even thought about it much the fact that I was pregnant or any of the circumstances, or it was just like, you know, I was another one of his women that were pregnant, that was pregnant.

Speaker 3 So when she brought up, I think it was a reality check for him, and that's why he got angry.

Speaker 1 You said that you're protected from your dad when you're pregnant. Did the jealousy from your mom get more intense at that point then?

Speaker 1 Or even from his girlfriends because of, like, what is the dynamic when someone is pregnant between the others?

Speaker 3 So my experience with my mom when I was pregnant, she was just as

Speaker 3 caring, I guess you can say, as my dad. I think that she became

Speaker 3 more

Speaker 3 maternal, right? It's kind of weird, but she became kinder.

Speaker 3 I don't know if it was pity or she more took on the role as her daughter is having a child kind of thing, but I experienced the most maternal behaviors from my mom while I was pregnant with my first daughter.

Speaker 3 Um, our interaction was definitely like, oh, she was my sister wife. So, essentially, it got to the point where it was like, I didn't have a mother, I had this sister wife, and

Speaker 3 that changed when I got pregnant as far as her behavior. So, she was very helpful during prenatal care.
And I mean, I was pretty knowledgeable on it, but made sure that I ate and I took vitamins.

Speaker 3 So she was very maternal actually while I was pregnant.

Speaker 1 How many kids does he have at this point?

Speaker 3 We've counted 21 so far. Like today.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 Yes, 21.

Speaker 3 That includes my children.

Speaker 3 Two of my sisters had one child each by him.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 any of the women that he has had some of them reached out to us as recently as maybe about well it was before covet they reached out

Speaker 3 but there is a very good possibility that there's more but so far we have knowledge of he's had 21 children he was always threatening you that if you didn't comply he would abuse your sisters but then you realize that he is already starting that abuse when did you realize so it was before we officially moved into the house.

Speaker 3 I came out of the house. We were there working.
It happened to be one of the times that one of my younger sisters came with us. It was my arch nemesis, the third child, but my first sister.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 they were by the truck. And I saw him like kiss her on her lips in a very romantic way.

Speaker 3 And he touched her and they both like looked at me and she looked at me as like she got caught like they were caught and my father yelled at me was like what are you doing what are you doing here go back inside and that's how I knew that's how I knew and then after that the next time was

Speaker 3 Since we only lived in one room. So now, you know, this is all during the moving process.
And then we move into the house since we lived in one room.

Speaker 3 Then one of the times my father sent everybody out and kept that sister there.

Speaker 3 So then that's how, that's how we knew.

Speaker 1 Yeah, did you and your sister ever talk about it at that time?

Speaker 3 I would, not at the time. Not at the time.

Speaker 3 And the relationship with that sister, that was strained because she did not understand that any attention my father was giving me me was not attention that I wanted.

Speaker 3 So what she saw as

Speaker 3 me being allowed to stay up late at night, she didn't know that it was because my father was molesting or me at the time. So she became very jealous.

Speaker 3 She didn't understand that my father taking me places with him, she just saw it as Aziza gets to go out and gets to go with daddy all the time, but he was taking me and abusing me in the car.

Speaker 3 So when she learned that he was molesting me,

Speaker 3 I think her immature mind thought, well, I want daddy's attention too. So, she would do things like get undressed and walk around him and sit on his lap.

Speaker 3 And I think that was her way of just trying to get attention from him because her understanding was, well, this is how you get attention from daddy using exercises.

Speaker 3 So, then by the time he started abusing her,

Speaker 3 her relationship with me was more of a

Speaker 3 now is easy, you're not the only special one.

Speaker 3 So there wasn't a conversation, but there were definitely argues. There were definitely arguments.
And then, even as we got older, there were more arguments.

Speaker 3 You know, she started blaming me for what happened to her. She started thinking, oh, well, certain things that happened was because I told my dad to do it to her.

Speaker 3 And these, this is because he was telling her this.

Speaker 3 When my father started molesting more of us, so then he went to the next sister and then the next sister.

Speaker 3 And he molested five of us in total.

Speaker 3 Four girls that were mothered by my mother and one that has a different mother.

Speaker 3 And he would pin us against each other. So he would show favoritism, cause tension, tell each other that I'm only doing this to you because so-and-so told me to.

Speaker 3 And so he made sure that there was always a divide between us so that we would never get together and rise up against him.

Speaker 4 And this all happened when you, all of y'all, were teens.

Speaker 3 Yes. Right.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we were all teenagers.

Speaker 1 Do you have your first child, your daughter? You guys never take her to the hospital, get a birth certificate.

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 1 There's no neighbors.

Speaker 3 So there were neighbors. And my father built privacy walls.

Speaker 3 so they never saw us.

Speaker 3 He also had a best friend. He did befriend an East Orange police officer.

Speaker 1 That you guys stayed with briefly, right?

Speaker 3 Right, after the house burned down. But before that happened, this police officer was impressed by the work my father was doing on the house.

Speaker 3 So that's how they started talking and they became friends. But I always find it interesting that he never questioned the fact that he had all these teenage girls that didn't have boyfriends.

Speaker 3 And then when I got pregnant, my father did limit my interaction. Like I couldn't be around people.

Speaker 3 But if I had to be, because we were working or I had to cook for, then I had to wear really oversized clothes to hide the fact that I was pregnant.

Speaker 3 So this guy, I don't even, I don't think he knew that I was pregnant. But then I have the baby.
And then of course, by the time we have the Mew move in with him, he

Speaker 3 doesn't question anything.

Speaker 3 So, in my mind, he was not an option to tell. He could not be an ally because he was my father's best friend.
So,

Speaker 3 I find out later on through

Speaker 3 my father's other friend, because this guy, this person actually died recently, passed away. He actually did suspect something and said something

Speaker 3 to my father's other friend. So I was like, so all this time you suspected?

Speaker 1 But then all you did was tell some other friend

Speaker 3 like it was gossip.

Speaker 3 Like it was gossip. And I learned also that there was more family, family that lived in East Orange that had seen me, seen me pregnant.

Speaker 3 suspected, had conversations, gossiped, never said or did anything.

Speaker 3 So,

Speaker 3 you know, these things things don't happen with people not knowing anything. A lot of people see things and they suspect they just don't do anything about it.

Speaker 1 Can you tell us about your dad's obsession with the pure blood lag?

Speaker 3 Oof, um,

Speaker 3 as I said before, my father was really into African culture,

Speaker 3 and that extended back to African royalty and connected to European royalty.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 I don't believe he thought about this before I got pregnant.

Speaker 3 But I think because he was such a researcher, I mean, we had books upon books upon books, like everywhere. He was always reading and watching a lot of National Geographic.

Speaker 3 I think that he made the connection between what he saw as far as like Tutankhamun and Nefertiti and Cleopatra and the fact that they inbred to keep the bloodline pure, he used it to justify what he was doing after I got pregnant.

Speaker 3 So after my daughter was born, she did not have health defects that we could see, like his girlfriend said, that solidified it. Then his whole philosophy was, yes, he

Speaker 3 now has to continue to breed me to create the special blue blood children that would repopulate the earth after the human race was destroyed. And that he was ordained by God to do that.

Speaker 3 I don't know if he believed that himself or it was just an excuse to justify. I don't know.
I never had that conversation with him, but that is the philosophy then he continued. And then when

Speaker 3 he went further on in abusing my sisters, and then one sister got pregnant, That was the lecture, constant lecture. Like

Speaker 3 these royal blue blood children are going to repopulate the earth.

Speaker 1 Nobody really believed it, right?

Speaker 3 By that time,

Speaker 3 it was not my priority to believe it. I was desensitized.
I was trying to make sure he did not touch my daughter.

Speaker 3 I was trying to survive throughout the day from getting punched in the face, or, you know, or worse.

Speaker 1 So he was already threatening our lives if we were to say anything so it was really about just making it through the day unscathed because i know that a lot of people have very complicated emotions and relationships with conceiving a child through rape did you ever have those complicated feelings or no

Speaker 3 No, no, I saw my baby. That was it.
I just saw her. I saw love.
I saw a part of me. So no, I didn't.

Speaker 3 And sometimes I feel bad because I get a lot of people reaching out to me saying that, well, how can you look at her and not see the trauma?

Speaker 3 How do you look at any of your children and not see the trauma? And I'm like, because I

Speaker 3 accept them for them as individuals. Yes, you know, thankfully, I, with my first child,

Speaker 3 it was just innate. Like my love for her, it's being her mom just came immediately.

Speaker 3 immediately though with my son my third not my third pregnancy it was actually my fourth pregnancy because I lost a child but my third child

Speaker 3 my father was physically abusive so that whole

Speaker 3 you being pregnant protected you went out the window with that pregnancy my father beat me he threatened me he I mean one time he beat me so bad that I blacked out

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 that that was a very stressful pregnancy.

Speaker 1 Why? Was it just like a time thing that he just decided?

Speaker 3 I think there were a couple of things that were happening. By then, he lost his standing in the music industry, in the video directed industry.

Speaker 3 A lot of people in the industry, he started being blackballed.

Speaker 3 He wasn't getting much work. So he had his own stresses.
But then I did read somewhere that you'll find more tension

Speaker 3 between

Speaker 3 a pregnant woman and the father of her child if who she's carrying is a boy. Because of the extra testosterone, apparently the father picks that up and there's just more tension between them.

Speaker 3 I don't know if that had anything to do with it, but my father's whole attitude while I was pregnant with my son was completely opposite of my other pregnancies.

Speaker 3 So he delivered all my four children that were fathered by him,

Speaker 3 three of them at home and the fourth one actually on a beach in Florida. Oh.
Yeah, in a tent. So I tried to take an opportunity to get away.

Speaker 3 I was always looking for some form of crack, you know, in the structure. And

Speaker 3 my

Speaker 3 son, who was malnourished, woke up with seizures one morning. I didn't know this.
That's what they were. I thought he was like dying, coming back to life.

Speaker 3 My father would not allow me to go outside with him. This was the most I had been isolated.

Speaker 3 And he also limited me feeding him. I had to finish all of my work in the house before I was allowed to feed my son.
Why?

Speaker 3 This was the new thing that my father adopted. My father would sometimes target one person in the family and make everyone else be against them.

Speaker 3 So I was the person at the time.

Speaker 3 So after I had my son it was like my sisters didn't really talk to me because if you were caught talking to me then you'd get in trouble with daddy so at some point my son gets very sick

Speaker 3 he wakes up this one day he starts having seizures my father was not home My brother convinced my mom to let him take me to the hospital, me and the baby to the hospital. We go

Speaker 3 and I was given all of these forms that, you know, this is all new to me.

Speaker 3 But when I noticed that they were asking for my son's father and my father, I decided to take a risk and put my father's name as both of them, hoping that that would be like, you know, hey, I need help.

Speaker 3 So it did. It raised a red flag, but not enough.
My father comes back home, gets into the hospital, curses out the medical unit,

Speaker 3 all the doctors.

Speaker 3 He starts telling them how they're trying to experiment on his son all of this stuff threatens me threatens the life of my siblings at home and eventually social services was called in

Speaker 3 they take my children out of my parents custody but they leave my other siblings there so now all of my children are in the hospital with me At the same time, my father's still threatening me.

Speaker 3 He's talking to the caseworker as well. so there's just like all of this confusion long story short my kids end up in foster care it was a blessing in disguise

Speaker 3 my father

Speaker 3 me again through all of this so the whole time even though now

Speaker 3 It seems like I have access to somebody that might help. Unfortunately, where we were living, it was very racist and very biased.

Speaker 3 So I tried to reach out for help the best way that I could without putting my father on, but my caseworker was not receptive. At the end of the day, my father is even more abusive.
Now he's beaten me.

Speaker 3 I got black eyes all the time. At the same time, I had to adhere to these different programs from social services to get my children back.
Through that, I get pregnant again.

Speaker 3 I'm close to now my due date.

Speaker 3 End up in the hospital because it's mandated by social services that I have to get prenatal care. So, this is the first time I'm ever getting prenatal care.

Speaker 3 However, my father's taken me to all of my visits. He's

Speaker 3 still in control. The abuse is still going on.

Speaker 3 There was one time he sends my sister to go with me, and it turns out I'm in labor. I don't know I'm in labor, of course, because I don't have labor.
My pains are not bad at all.

Speaker 3 My sister saw me talking to the nurse and I was getting ready to ask for help, tell her my situation.

Speaker 3 My father calls and my sister tells my father that I was about to tell the nurse what he'd been doing.

Speaker 3 So he decides to come and get me and says, I'm going to take you away from anybody, from any help that you think that you can possibly get.

Speaker 3 I'm taking you to another state and I'm going to deliver the baby there.

Speaker 3 So that's how we ended up in Florida on a campsite and he delivered my child in a tent. Thank God all of my births were safe.

Speaker 3 However, even though the births were safe, so two of my children do have inborn errors.

Speaker 3 One had PKU and spinal muscular atrophy and the other one has PKU phenylketonoria, which is a metabolic disorder. It's a recessive disorder where both parents have to be the carrier of the gene.
So

Speaker 3 my second daughter had the condition, but of course we didn't know it. This condition is screened.

Speaker 3 When you give birth in a hospital, you're given a PKU test and they check the blood to see if you have this disorder. But of course, since she wasn't screened because my father...

Speaker 3 delivered her, she started showing the signs of untreated PKU.

Speaker 3 We didn't know, of course. She broke out in rashes all over her skin.
She had developmental delays.

Speaker 3 She actually does have some brain damage due to it because she wasn't discovered until she was two years old.

Speaker 3 But my father

Speaker 3 said that the reason why she was breaking out is because my milk was poison and my negative energy. So he always blamed me.
He always blamed me.

Speaker 3 And it wasn't until she went into foster care and was tested at the hospital did they find out. So now that when it gets to the point that my

Speaker 3 last daughter by him,

Speaker 3 she started losing milestones. So he delivered her, brought us back to Jersey, all of the threats.

Speaker 3 And by this time, there had been enough things in the family that he made good on some of his threats in the past.

Speaker 3 So the mental control was still there. I didn't feel it was safe for me to reach out to anybody for help.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 eventually, my daughter, my youngest daughter, started losing milestones. She wasn't sitting up.
She wasn't crawling at the age she should have been.

Speaker 3 And finally, got her tested. All against, you know, my father was just, of course, blaming me again.

Speaker 3 But then it turned out that she had the spinal muscular atrophy and the phenylcetonoria.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 my birds were fine. Yes, my birds were actually, thank God,

Speaker 3 safe and successful, no complications.

Speaker 3 But, you know, my children, two of my children did have issues.

Speaker 1 I know that Coco passed.

Speaker 1 Your other daughter that has PKU, does that affect her life today?

Speaker 3 It does. She has to stay on a special diet for the rest of her life, a low-protein diet.
So she's primarily vegan and she has to drink a special formula.

Speaker 3 So even though she is not eating protein, she still needs some of the nutrients in protein. So, the formula provides her these other nutrients.

Speaker 3 And because of the date, brain damage from when she was younger, she

Speaker 3 does have some other channels. You would never know that she has them, but there are some things that she has to she copes with, specifically emotionally.

Speaker 3 Um,

Speaker 3 but she's she's an amazing young lady,

Speaker 3 she's 28.

Speaker 1 Five pregnancies.

Speaker 1 A miscarriage. And you gave birth to four beautiful children.
Yeah. Coco passed at nine years old.

Speaker 3 She was nine. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Was that very difficult?

Speaker 3 Was it? Oh my gosh. And the anniversary of her death is coming up on October 17th.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 But I mean, she was a blessing in my life. I mean, she was a blessing in all of our lives because she

Speaker 3 really taught us empathy and

Speaker 3 I think an appreciation for life and our abilities

Speaker 3 because she was disabled and she depended on everyone else to help her.

Speaker 3 I did everything I could to

Speaker 3 give her the best quality life as possible. So we drunk her everywhere.

Speaker 3 We did not go to the movies without my baby.

Speaker 3 But so it was. And I wasn't even home.
I wasn't even home. I had decided

Speaker 3 to have a day trip with my sisters. We went to Great Adventure.
She was left home with my mom and her nurse. And I got a call that she wasn't breathing.

Speaker 3 So it was due to complications to her spinal muscular atrophy.

Speaker 3 However, you know, I feel like I don't have closure on that because

Speaker 3 the

Speaker 3 medical

Speaker 3 coroner, medical examiner, medical examiner, yes, refused to do an autopsy. They just labeled her as it was because of her condition.

Speaker 3 But I think the nurse was negligent. I think the nerve because when I came home, her food was wasted all over the place.
And I was on the phone at the time.

Speaker 3 Her and the nurse and my mom were panicking, and the nurse didn't know how to open the oxygen tank. And this was after I spent the day before with her making sure she knew everything.

Speaker 3 So I'm like, I don't know what happened. And the nursing agency took all of the notes.
Like, there was just a lot of questionable things. So I feel like I'm still working on

Speaker 3 having a sense of closure for that because I don't think I think that, well, she wouldn't still be here with us. The doctors,

Speaker 3 I felt like every couple of years, they gave me a new date. They didn't think she was going to live past two years old.

Speaker 3 Then, two-year-old birthday, they told me she wasn't going to live past five. So, it was progressing.
She made it all the way to nine, which I'm thankful for.

Speaker 3 But I think she would have made it a little longer, you know, had

Speaker 3 I stayed home that day. And so I carry a little guilt about that.

Speaker 1 What was her favorite thing to do?

Speaker 3 Watch scary movies.

Speaker 3 If you can believe it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, she loved to watch horror movies. This one movie specifically called The Messenger.
And she would actually be scared. Like you should see it in her face.
She'd be scared.

Speaker 3 But she loved to watch it. That and Justin Bieber.
She loved Justin Bieber.

Speaker 3 Yeah, like joined the club. But

Speaker 3 yeah, that was pretty much. And of course, be here with mom.
I was her favorite person.

Speaker 3 I was her favorite person.

Speaker 1 Was she always like the baby of the family?

Speaker 3 She was, but she acted like she was the oldest.

Speaker 3 She loved to give orders. Yeah.
She definitely loved to give orders. And she just, she expected everyone to be at her beck and call.
I love her. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. She was the sweetest thing.

Speaker 3 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1 What is your relationship like with your children?

Speaker 3 Intense? I didn't say that. It's intense.
It's loving though. There's so much love between us.
When we're all together, it's just so much fun. And

Speaker 3 I have taught my kids to speak open with me. So communication is a huge thing.
We have family meetings.

Speaker 3 I love to go over what people's goals are, what are they going to achieve in the next year, week, what their plans are for certain things.

Speaker 3 So I think all of that really contributes to our relationship.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 because

Speaker 3 I know, because my parents were so silencing, like we didn't have a voice in my house. It was more like shut up and listen.
So

Speaker 3 I have definitely used my parents as what not to do in raising children. So I allow my kids to

Speaker 3 oh my gosh, sometimes even to a fault, challenge me. Like if they disagree with something, they do, they can like ask me a question

Speaker 3 about it sometimes it goes on and on and on and on but

Speaker 3 sometimes i feel like they're just a little kid saying but why but why but why but you know they're grown um or even throughout their teenage years

Speaker 3 but but i think that that has contributed to how open and how close we are as a family and we do we we just have a lot of fun like game nights are the best cooking is the best like it's just so much fun when we all get together watching watching movies you know doing things outside of the house so so they were taken to foster care and then how did you get them back a lot of work

Speaker 3 a lot of work essentially my kids being taken away from me was was the push that i needed to then really get away from my father because i knew i could not bring them back to our life.

Speaker 3 So my children were separated in foster care for about a year and a half.

Speaker 3 After my case was moved from Monmouth County, which is where I had the very racist experience, to Essex County, and I got a caseworker who was compassionate.

Speaker 3 They decided to work towards reunification.

Speaker 3 And part of that was to find family to be my children's foster parents. So

Speaker 3 everything came full circle. My maternal grandmother and my aunts are who was their foster parents so they actually ended up having

Speaker 3 their latter part of their foster care living in the house that I grew up in it was it was so surreal and that's how I reconnected with that family as well I was able to visit them.

Speaker 3 It took some time, but I eventually was able to visit them on the weekends. We rebonded then

Speaker 3 and then they each came home a month apart.

Speaker 3 Through that, you know, the whole process with social services they have to do home visits and check to make sure that i'm taking them to their doctors visits and things like that so then finally

Speaker 3 10 days before they went up for adoption is when I got custody, full custody back for them. I felt like that I finally did it.

Speaker 3 Now it was through all of that process is when I was able to completely liberate myself from my father.

Speaker 3 And that was because through the process of working with social services, I learned that I was being abused. I learned what abuse was.
I learned what pedophilia was, domestic violence.

Speaker 3 Like these were all ideas that I had never considered. It was just my life.

Speaker 3 So now learning about it and learning that what was happening to me was not supposed to happen started to empower me.

Speaker 3 And I began to look for more ways to get away from him. And I finally built up the courage to tell someone who he respected.

Speaker 3 And that person happened to have some kind of connection with law enforcement,

Speaker 3 ended up taking my mom to report domestic violence and got a restraint and order against my father.

Speaker 3 So now that process started. I was able to get my children back.
A couple of years after that, my sisters and I went and reported my father to the police.

Speaker 1 Is it a weird feeling when people reference him as your father? Like, do you prefer if people call him by his name? Or

Speaker 3 doesn't. And it's something that's

Speaker 3 kind of a topic that gets questioned, me specifically, because I do still refer to him as my father.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think it's your choice to

Speaker 1 just want to respect your choice.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I agree, but it's intentional. It is intentional because if I called him, I've heard survivors call their abuser their, you know, a sperm donor, or especially if it's a parent,

Speaker 3 they'll give them these other titles. But for me, especially because of the work that I do, I feel that it's important to recognize what his role was supposed to be.
And he was supposed to protect me.

Speaker 3 He was supposed to take advantage of his role. So, yes, I do refer to him still as my father because, one, that's what he is.

Speaker 3 And two, it highlights the severity of his actions, how heinous that his, the things that he did was, because he was the person that not only contributed, you know, to me being here, but he was given the responsibility of protecting me.

Speaker 3 And he completely exploited it.

Speaker 1 Tell us about the day you leave. Escape.

Speaker 3 Right. Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 3 Yeah, the day that I escaped. So it was triggered.
Now here I am, all of these ideas, all of these things happening in my head.

Speaker 3 I already told this person, this other person who actually was his friend or somebody that he really respected and revered and was the first person he allowed me to speak to outside of his presence or anyone else's presence.

Speaker 3 So of course, that opportunity came. I took it.
I begged this guy. I said, please do not tell him.
If there is a way that you can help us without telling him, please, you know, can you do it?

Speaker 3 This is all all happening with like in the space of a week. My father was around my younger sister and he was about to take her into the room to rape her.
She was pregnant with his child already and

Speaker 3 something just flipped in me.

Speaker 3 Between the information, between I had already started taking steps to get us away.

Speaker 3 All of these things just stirred something in me and I went went off. I just exploded on him.
I called him all kinds of names, called him an asshole.

Speaker 3 And I also looked at my mom and because she was there and I was like, and how could you have let this go on all of this time? You're no better than him.

Speaker 3 And I just went off and then I took my sister into the bedroom and locked the door. And by the next morning, my dad was gone.
And then that's when the restraining order was put in. And

Speaker 3 so he did not respond because he was in shock.

Speaker 3 And I have learned now in my studies that this can happen. You'll have somebody that has been abused for so long that essentially they just break.

Speaker 3 And then because the abuser is so used to them being compliant and submissive, when they see them now get to a point where they are empowered or they're in challenging their authority, they're in shock.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 that's what happened. And my father, he just sat down.

Speaker 3 he just sat down he said nothing he looked at my mom my mom was dumbstruck i don't know what conversation they had after i took my sister and locked the room door but i know that that was the last time i saw him once i saw him in public um in jersey city and then the next time i saw him was when i was testifying against him in court How did your kids find out who their biological father was?

Speaker 3 My oldest daughter was five.

Speaker 3 She was raised calling my father daddy so she knew that was his father her father but she didn't know i was her sister so now when she went into foster care she was getting these mixed messages the social worker the caseworker told her that

Speaker 3 who she was calling daddy was really her grandfather still no information on me then when she got to my grandmother's house, my grandmother reiterated, doubled down on it.

Speaker 3 This was her grandfather, this was not her father. When I got her back, by the time I got her back, she was nine years old.

Speaker 3 She kept asking me. She wanted to know the story.
I didn't feel that she was mature enough to really handle it. So I told her that I would tell her when she was a little older.
She accepted it.

Speaker 3 She still kind of bugged me every now and then. She was like, Oh, mommy, well, I suspect this and I suspect that.
I'm like, I'm neither confirming nor denying. That happened when she was 13.

Speaker 3 And she came and asked me again.

Speaker 3 again she was like well am i old enough now and i told her i told her she said that she knew it so i explained to her that the entire dynamic yes who she now knows as her grandfather is also her father and is also my father and that we were sisters

Speaker 3 and her words out of her mouth literally was i knew it so she had already put pieces together i told her at that time, I still waited to tell my other children. My daughter and I, we spoke about it.

Speaker 3 Clearly, she was angry, but she wasn't physically upset, I guess, because it more felt like a confirmation of what she had already suspected.

Speaker 3 And she had come to terms with certain things by that time.

Speaker 3 But when I told my other children,

Speaker 3 they were upset. And the reason why I told them was because it was after Coco died, created a lot of turmoil between me and my sisters.

Speaker 3 And by that time, so many other things had happened. Like

Speaker 3 my sisters slept with my then at that by that time, he was my ex-husband. So, you know, our relationship was already strained.

Speaker 3 Some of the negative seeds my dad planted had kind of come out, sprouted out. So there was just a lot going on by that time.

Speaker 3 And my kids kids didn't understand why. They didn't understand why there was so much arguing and so much blame and fingers being pointed.
So I felt like it was time to tell them.

Speaker 3 My daughter, Moncho, my second daughter, she got very emotional.

Speaker 3 My son, he didn't really say anything. And he learned about it at the youngest age.
I believe he was only nine at the time. He was either no, he couldn't have been nine because Coco died.

Speaker 3 So he had to be about 11.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 he just

Speaker 3 internalized

Speaker 3 he internalized we've spoken about it over time like i said i have i my door is open for my kids to ask me any questions any information so they know a lot of the details they know the emotional impacts they understand the trauma through the work that we do with my organization of course they are like the number one people people to go to about that.

Speaker 3 They're experts about on that.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 it just required then for us to, we had to intentionally heal

Speaker 3 because the reality of it and how it has affected our lives, it's a lot. It's a lot to deal with.

Speaker 1 How has it impacted their lives in

Speaker 1 just in society? Because I do think there is, there's a lot of stigma and shame that could come, I guess, depending on the types of communities of relationships that involve incest.

Speaker 1 What has been their impact?

Speaker 3 Believe it or not, their friends have been really supportive.

Speaker 3 Yeah, their friends have been really supportive once their friends knew. And their friends, my daughter, my oldest daughter, started telling her friends before I became public about it.

Speaker 3 So she had the support from them.

Speaker 3 My son, I am hearing stuff now. We do do family therapy and he'll come up with some form like some kind of story or experience where

Speaker 3 a girl because I'm public and knows that he's a result of incest told him that she wouldn't date him because of that

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 He has no problem getting girls. So he's like, that's like,

Speaker 3 went right over his head. He was like, oh, well, you're lost.
So they're all very confident in their position. My second daughter, she is

Speaker 3 very much interested in the topic and

Speaker 3 incest as it's practiced in different cultures. And she does talk to me about it.

Speaker 3 So she's more curious in that way. But none of them have experienced, well, except for this one incident from my son with this girl.

Speaker 3 They have not experienced any serious blowback.

Speaker 3 My oldest daughter will catch some comments under my videos

Speaker 3 and she will go in.

Speaker 1 You tell us the comment, we will also go in.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they she will, she will go in on people. So, their confidence levels

Speaker 3 and they're they're very secure within themselves. They're very secure within themselves.
They don't feel any form of shame because of it.

Speaker 3 They're just, they're just proud. Like, they are who they are.
They're talented.

Speaker 3 they're communicative, they are witty as hell, their sense of humors are crazy, but um, yeah, they don't feel any form of shame or or shyness because of it.

Speaker 1 You end up escaping,

Speaker 1 and then a few years later, you guys turn your dad in, right? And then there's a whole trial that you have to testify it.

Speaker 1 What was that like?

Speaker 3 It was nerve-wracking. Yeah, it was

Speaker 3 scary. It was scary because I knew I would have to see him again.

Speaker 3 It was nerve-wracking because the judicial system is not far from perfect. Oh my gosh, it's so far from perfect.
My experience with the detective was scary when we first reported and I had to

Speaker 3 give him my account.

Speaker 3 It was scary.

Speaker 3 Then when we got to the stage that we were

Speaker 3 the prosecutor,

Speaker 3 judges were being assigned to the case. Some of them was like, well,

Speaker 3 they,

Speaker 3 why did they wait so long?

Speaker 3 And incest is legal in New Jersey. So, you know, so we got a lot of that.
And it was like, oh, we got to wait for another judge because we can't have a judge that has bias.

Speaker 3 So that process was strenuous.

Speaker 3 But our product, the prosecutor, she was committed. She was dedicated.
We had to prove a lot. I had to prove that my father was my father.
I had to prove that my father was also my kid's father.

Speaker 3 I had to prove that he threatened my life. And then because incest is legal in New Jersey, specifically after you turn 18, you're considered consent and adult.

Speaker 3 The only way he could be charged with him abusing me after I turned 18 was if it was under violent circumstances.

Speaker 3 So he would have to be now violently ripping me for him to be charged with any form of abuse. So that was just a lot.
At the same time, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about the system.

Speaker 3 I learned a lot about the judicial system. So I'm grateful for that because now I am working to strengthen it to make it easier for other victims and survivors to report.

Speaker 3 But the day that I had to testify in front of him, here I am thinking, oh, I'm this far on my my healing journey. I'm confident.
I have my kids back. I'm working.
I'm getting an education.

Speaker 3 I was putting myself through college. As soon as I saw him, all of that disappeared.
How old are you?

Speaker 3 By then, I had to be 35.

Speaker 3 Yeah, 34, 35. I reverted right back to the little girl that I was afraid of him.

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Speaker 3 But I collected myself, you know, but I became very self-conscious of my body. I don't think that I had fully come to term with the idea that

Speaker 3 what happened to me was not my fault. Me being in his presence, I started looking at myself to make sure I didn't do anything that would, you know, trigger him or, or arouse him in any way.

Speaker 3 But I took audit of myself. I, after I did the, we had a preliminary testifying.
It wasn't in front of a jury. It was only in front of the lawyers and the judge.

Speaker 3 So then the judge can decide which questions are allowed and what shouldn't be allowed. And after I finished, I collected myself.
I was able to like internalize, do a lot of introspection, and

Speaker 3 get myself ready for the actual

Speaker 3 actual testimony. So, and even that, that was strange because of course, the defense attorney has to ask, ask questions.

Speaker 1 What is the cross-examination like?

Speaker 3 It makes you feel so invalidated because they're really trying hard to

Speaker 3 make it look like that you're either lying or you asked for it or why didn't you tell?

Speaker 3 So there were were things that I was testifying that only my father knew about because he was the only person in the room other than myself. And she challenged every one of those things.

Speaker 3 She basically,

Speaker 3 yes, yes, he had a female defense attorney. I mean, you know, that was strategy.
And I heard that he went through two other lawyers, like two other lawyers.

Speaker 3 They started the process once they started hearing what the charges was and started hearing,

Speaker 3 well, started reading the reports that me and my sisters gave to the detective. They decided they couldn't, they couldn't continue, represented him.
But he did find someone that represented him. And

Speaker 3 it was really strange sometimes in court because

Speaker 3 I saw him trying to do the seductive thing that I'd seen him do with other women. Like he'd get really close and whisper it in her ear and like giving her little touches and stuff.

Speaker 3 And I was like, this is so creepy. This is so creepy, like this is his attorney.
But

Speaker 3 she did her job, she did her job. Another part that was difficult was seeing some of the jury members look like they didn't believe me.

Speaker 3 That was tough. There was this one woman specifically, every time I described something, she rolled her eyes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was

Speaker 3 so, I mean, you know, but

Speaker 3 I was determined to have him him be held accountable. So I powered through.
The fear was there, but I did it because it really needed to be done. He needed to be held accountable.

Speaker 3 So during this trial, your mom

Speaker 1 receives no charges, likely because she divorced him and was willing to testify against him?

Speaker 3 I don't think she even divorced him yet by then.

Speaker 3 It was because she was still married to him and she waived her whatever right that is for a spouse to not testify against, for a married person to not testify against their spouse.

Speaker 3 So in exchange for her

Speaker 3 waiving that right,

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 she did. She testified against him.

Speaker 1 Her testifying, was there some sort of closure? Did you feel like she was finally coming around or did you feel like it was advantageous to her situation?

Speaker 3 Yeah, no,

Speaker 3 it was definitely advantageous for her, you know, and I love my mom. I have to love her from afar now.
I cannot be around her. She has not healed enough to for us to interact,

Speaker 3 especially how she feels or how she responds to my children. That started to kind of surface again even after we got away from my dad.

Speaker 3 She was treating my children a lot differently from her other grandchildren.

Speaker 3 I believe her reasons for testifying was, well there was a lot of selfishness involved i think that she was protecting herself but anybody would do that i am pretty much 100 sure of that is because when the day for his sentencing for the crimes he committed against me my mom went on a cruise

Speaker 3 she was not there to support on a cruise yeah she went on a cruise and i was like mommy are you serious

Speaker 3 so i just think there is still a lot of guilt that she has not dealt with, and this is her way by just not dealing with it to avoid it. So, my relationship with her is kind of non-existent.

Speaker 3 I see her every now and then, I still communicate with her cordially,

Speaker 3 but as far as being in a real relationship with her, she's just not at the place. She's not at the place.

Speaker 3 There's a lot of things that I think she has to come to terms with, take responsibility for that she just hasn't yet.

Speaker 1 Do you think she should have been charged?

Speaker 3 That's very hard. That is a very hard question.
I think I have different reasons for why I would say yes, but I also have different reasons for why I would say no.

Speaker 3 My reasons why I would say yes is because

Speaker 3 at the time

Speaker 3 New Jersey law did not hold someone who witnessed abuse and did not report it accountable, right? That has changed. I believe 2019 is when now they changed it.

Speaker 3 That has a negative impact on people reporting. As I said before, I found out later on there was a lot of people that suspected, saw things, and didn't report, but

Speaker 3 they could not have been held accountable legally at the time. So I do think that Yes, she should have been held accountable.

Speaker 3 One, as an example to other people, like if you see something, you suspect something, you should say something.

Speaker 3 I think that it would have contributed to the efficacy of the system in general in protecting children and protecting abused people.

Speaker 3 At the same time, I would not want her to be charged because she was an abused woman. And she was severely abused.
My father severely abused her.

Speaker 3 And I don't think that there are enough things in place

Speaker 3 to manage and support abused women especially women that are abused in that way and have children that have been abused so you know um her life was at risk she feared for her life yes because i know her and i was there and i witnessed and was on the receiving end of her selfishness I could say, well, no, she should have been held accountable.

Speaker 3 But at the same time, as a professional, someone in this field, I think that she should have been shown grace and if anything, been assigned some kind of counseling and support services so that she can make better decisions going forward.

Speaker 1 You started getting molested when you were eight. You finally testify when you're 35.

Speaker 1 How much of an impact do you think being black in America played in that?

Speaker 3 A lot. I mean, one, my father

Speaker 3 used that, right? He used that to

Speaker 3 keep us oppressed. It's something to be oppressed within a system of oppression.

Speaker 3 So he used the fact that we were black and people on the outside, the things that are put in a position to supposedly protect everyone.

Speaker 3 is not going to protect us because we're black so there was the fear of well

Speaker 3 I'm being abused by my father.

Speaker 3 That's a devil that I know.

Speaker 3 But then if I try to get away from him, then there's this whole other devil that I don't know that will abuse me as well. So he definitely used that.

Speaker 3 He educated his family on the social issues that black people face. That created a fear of the outside world.
It definitely did in me. I know it did in my mom.

Speaker 3 We felt like we could not not reach out for help.

Speaker 3 Then there is the gender dynamics and gender biases. My father had friends.
He had a friend that was a police officer, but that was his friend. And if, I mean, definitely for me, well,

Speaker 3 if my father is doing this, and this is how my father treats women, and this is how I was raised, this is how women are supposed to be treated. Every man is

Speaker 3 treating women like this.

Speaker 3 I also heard his conversations in the music industry with all of his celebrity friends and music professionals, how they really dehumanized women and oversexualized and taken advantage of, you know, video girls.

Speaker 3 And so all of those things, all of these social issues that we are facing today definitely has a deep impact on the smaller social systems, which are families.

Speaker 3 And I think abusers definitely take advantage of that.

Speaker 1 And I know before Essex County, you had really bad experiences talking to people to try and get help.

Speaker 1 That was because you were black. Is that something you think has been changing, or is that something that's still?

Speaker 3 We were in Monmouth County. I've only been there to go to the beach, so I don't know what the social systems are like.
personally.

Speaker 3 However, I have had women reach out to me and said it's the same.

Speaker 3 And they've shared their experiences with the systems down there, specifically dealing with domestic violence.

Speaker 3 And like, look, if you are black, if you are a black woman, do not move to Monmouth County. Now, that could be taken as hearsay, but that's their experiences that they've taken with me.

Speaker 3 So I don't know. I don't think it's changed very much.
But I do think some of that could be. lack of education, meaning a lack of education for the social workers and the law enforcement.

Speaker 3 And because racism is

Speaker 3 so ingrained in our society that I think even those people who aren't innately racist, because they are functioning within a racist system, they automatically are going to take advantage of the power that racism gives them.

Speaker 3 So I think a lot of those things still exist, and that could just take some education and some empathy in order for it to change.

Speaker 1 Being a victim of sex crimes in America is already difficult.

Speaker 1 Do you think being a victim who is also a person of color, does that add an extra level of difficulty in getting your voice heard, in authorities taking you seriously?

Speaker 3 Yes, definitely. And I think it, because

Speaker 3 it intersects with

Speaker 3 how being a person of color, how people of color are treated within the medical system and within law enforcement. So because black women specifically our

Speaker 3 levels of we're expected to have a higher tolerance for pain yeah that is

Speaker 3 right so you have a woman who has experienced domestic violence her injuries just aren't taken as seriously just because of that alone so

Speaker 3 Because the abuse intersects with all of these other things and then with law enforcement, if they are already discriminating against people of color because

Speaker 3 we have been labeled as violent, right? Then it's not so much of a

Speaker 3 big deal. So all of those things play a role.
And that's why even when I do my speaking engagements,

Speaker 3 I have to bring up the cultural sensitivities that vary between different ethnicities and different races and different backgrounds.

Speaker 3 Even when you're dealing with a survivor, they may have things within their culture, their religion that will prevent them from addressing certain things or saying certain things or being forthcoming with the information.

Speaker 3 And I think that the people that work within the systems that are supposed to help, support, and protect needs to be educated on all of these little elements and nuances.

Speaker 1 Did you feel like you got support during testifying and during the trial?

Speaker 1 Yes, definitely.

Speaker 3 Okay, go ahead.

Speaker 3 Oh, my gosh. Lisa Secretary, I tell her, listen,

Speaker 3 that prosecutor from Pate County, when she was the assistant prosecutor, she was absolutely amazing. That whole prosecutor's office, they were just, they were so supportive.

Speaker 1 And he was sentenced to 90 years.

Speaker 3 90 years total.

Speaker 1 Have you gone to visit him?

Speaker 3 No,

Speaker 3 but I planned to. I started the process by reaching out to some of his his family, his sister and his brother.
I was told that his brother is the only person on his list.

Speaker 3 Apparently he has to create a list

Speaker 3 to decide who can come and visit him. And I would have to go through his brother to get me on the list.
So that's a working process, but I'm going to do it. And I'm going to do it for two reasons.

Speaker 3 And it's something, because the second reason I really just came to the conclusion of.

Speaker 3 So the first reason is, one, I want to pick his brain.

Speaker 3 I want to get as much information as far as his thinking, go more in depth, like ask him questions if he had been abused so I can get a clear answer, not have to speculate

Speaker 3 as far as his different stages of when he decided to escalate from molestation to rape. How did he come up with these philosophies and these theories? I'd like to know if

Speaker 3 he is going to tell the truth, if he's grown, if he's changed, and possibly get some information that would help to bolster my work and create better programs that takes into account how abusers think and what methods of operation that they use to groom and to victimize people.

Speaker 3 And then the second reason, which is something that

Speaker 3 through my own introspection, I've kind of come up with more recently is that

Speaker 3 I really am curious to see how I would respond to him in that moment.

Speaker 3 Kind of looking back on the time that I saw him after years when I testified against him, and seeing how I did not anticipate how I would respond,

Speaker 3 I would like to

Speaker 3 feel an experience

Speaker 3 based on who I am now, where I have

Speaker 3 grown to my life experiences. How would I respond being in his presence? Will there still be a little bit of fear there?

Speaker 3 Would I trust myself in the moment? Am I going to, you know, go blank on my questions? Or can I really come go see him, do what I need to do, and then move move on

Speaker 3 so that yeah i i definitely plan to go see him i hope i hope he doesn't die in prison yet before i get that opportunity is there any part of you that's scared

Speaker 3 um

Speaker 1 of maybe just not even scared of him but maybe like the scared comes from the idea of being triggered back into

Speaker 3 not that so much i one thing i one thing i do know for a fact is that i don't know everything so i think i would be just more afraid, if you want to call it that, of just the unknown, of something that I didn't anticipate.

Speaker 3 I mean, even now, I don't think I have been in enough social situations to tell you for a fact that everything that I've been through

Speaker 3 would not have an impact on how I respond in that specific social situations.

Speaker 3 I know that there's still a lot of things undiscovered by me just because I've not been under those circumstances to discover it. And I think that this would be one of them.
And I'm curious to see.

Speaker 3 Like I've been ghosted for the first time.

Speaker 3 Oh, you somebody ghosted me very recently and I've only heard of it. Yeah.
But I was like, damn, this shit.

Speaker 3 That's crazy. They would ghost you.

Speaker 3 How could somebody do this to somebody?

Speaker 3 But, you know, so it's kind of like that. It's like, I just know there are certain things.
And I have such a fervor for experiences in life.

Speaker 3 Not that one. Not negative ones,

Speaker 3 but I'm right. Not that one.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I'm really curious on how I would respond. Like, am I as strong as I think I am kind of thing, you know? So that, that, and that's, that's a new, that's a new reason.

Speaker 3 I have decided that I want to see my father in prison since he was sentenced. Because even at his sentencing, he was still denying things, he was still denying it.

Speaker 3 He kept saying, Aziza, you know the truth. And I'm like,

Speaker 3 Yeah, and that's why you're here.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 yeah, yeah. And I'm just like, okay, so I would like an update.

Speaker 1 What are your feelings towards your father?

Speaker 3 Well, one, I'm very disappointed in him. I don't know if that is strong enough, but

Speaker 3 he could have been so much.

Speaker 3 And I don't discount his potential, his creativity. I know I have gotten a lot of my kind of just do-it-perspective from him.

Speaker 3 He was successful in his craft and his business up to a point. I think his ego got the best of him and that kind of messed things up.
But

Speaker 3 he was doing very

Speaker 3 good things. I am saddened that he took his life and made these decisions when he could have made different decisions and possibly helped and inspired a lot of people.

Speaker 3 So I think that's like a complete waste.

Speaker 3 Other than that, I feel like emotionally, I don't feel any attachment to him emotionally. I feel very indifferent.
He's like another human, you know. Um, that's pretty much it.
That's pretty much it.

Speaker 1 I mean, no one would blame you if you had strong feelings of hatred,

Speaker 1 But it seems like you don't have that.

Speaker 3 I don't. I don't.

Speaker 3 I think hate takes up a lot of energy. One.
Now, I can't say that that's my conscious reason for not hating him.

Speaker 3 I did have my rage, but it was such a,

Speaker 3 a lot of it happened during the abuse.

Speaker 3 There were times I plotted killing my father. With a hammer, right? Yeah, once with a hammer, another time with a pillow.
He was very sick.

Speaker 3 And that's just how angry I was. And that's how much I wanted what he was doing to me to stop.
I was literally thinking of committing murder, even beyond that, trying to poison his food. So

Speaker 3 I think that this is the thing with long-term abuse. You go through all of those things at different stages, you know? So I experienced all that.

Speaker 3 So by the time I came to the end of it, so much of it was about my children, creating a life for them, healing myself, trying to enjoy life because I spent so much of it suffering. And

Speaker 3 any anger that I had for him just wasn't that important anymore. And that's pretty much where I've been and how it has been.
It's just not important for me to be angry at him.

Speaker 3 But I did experience the anger at different times. I know it probably plateaued that time that I cursed him out because there was so much stuff just came out, you know, in my head.
And I think if I

Speaker 3 was

Speaker 3 a little more out of my mind at the time, I probably would have physically attacked him. But since then, yeah, no, I don't have any like moments of anger.
Every now and then,

Speaker 3 when I have challenges with my kids, I think maybe I do get a little,

Speaker 3 that would be the only thing because sometimes,

Speaker 3 though I don't want to dwell on the kurashiro buddhas,

Speaker 3 I do, I have to acknowledge, like it's hard not to acknowledge that my daughter would not have PKU had she not been born as a result of this situation, that my daughter who passed away would didn't have SMA because of it and any challenges that

Speaker 3 my kids have, the fact to the fact that they don't have a father, you know, and that they have to

Speaker 3 deal with everything that comes along with this situation. Yeah, that pisses me off sometimes.

Speaker 3 But it's not like a personal direct anger towards him. It's more just about the situation.
And I do know that if I was to dwell on it, I would stay, I would probably be miserable

Speaker 3 because there's nothing I can do to change it at this point. So I just do what I can do to change it or stop it from happening to other people.

Speaker 1 What is your relationship like with your siblings, specifically your sisters who also were abused?

Speaker 3 So right now, I'm only in communication with one.

Speaker 3 They

Speaker 3 do blame me.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they do blame me.

Speaker 3 I orchestrated

Speaker 3 for us to have a group therapy session and I learned within that session that

Speaker 3 they

Speaker 3 felt that had I fought my father harder than they would not have been abused

Speaker 3 so they held me responsible and the other

Speaker 3 was that my father did tell them or had started this narrative that he was abusing them because I told him to

Speaker 3 so they was carrying that

Speaker 3 and that has just that affected our relationship going forward.

Speaker 3 And it got to the point that, you know, we don't really speak. One sister I am still in communication with.
We actually have, you know, we're pretty, we're pretty much in touch.

Speaker 3 We go out, we hang out, we do things, we talk on the phone. So, yeah, but

Speaker 3 yeah, that's what it is. And then I have some of my little, you know, little siblings that I speak to who have different moms because even that

Speaker 3 my relationship or our relationship with that mom also had an impact on our relationship with each other.

Speaker 1 What are your kids' relationships with

Speaker 1 your sister's kids that were

Speaker 1 by your father? Because they're half-siblings, but also cousins. Yes.
Are they close? Do they have a relationship?

Speaker 3 There's six of them, right? So I have four, and two of my sisters each have one. One is completely disabled he doesn't communicate he he has some very rare genetic disorder so

Speaker 3 he communicated with us and we were very close at one point he even lived with us but since the communication between my sister and i his mom deteriorated now i never we never see him so they don't communicate and then my niece she is involved i would say they definitely have more sibling rivalries than like cousins.

Speaker 3 So, so they did every now and then they're arguing, then they're best of friends, and they're arguing, then they're best of friends.

Speaker 3 But, you know, like she volunteers with the organization and everything, so we're cool. I know,

Speaker 1 like, there's a lot more information, but I just need one little snippet of your sister slept with your ex-husband.

Speaker 3 What? Yes, which one? It was two of them.

Speaker 3 It was two of them and um

Speaker 3 i do chalk it up to one we did not know what a healthy relationship was you know then there is the fact that we was raised in a polygamous lifestyle um

Speaker 3 yes my father was us and everything was done against our will but we had been conditioned to being with the same man that's how i rationalize it however there had been enough time past and i felt that we built built up a

Speaker 3 good relationship with each other. I also had the conversation with them like, okay, guys, we can't do this.
We can't do it. My man is my man.
Your man is your man.

Speaker 3 You know, we laid all of that stuff out. Then one day, my younger sister.

Speaker 3 um she was actually the one that was a baby when i first started being molested she comes to me crying saying how i have the perfect life

Speaker 3 now my husband and i um you know we had been together i I think I was pregnant at that time. Yeah, I was pregnant with my youngest son.
She's crying how I have the perfect life and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 And she wants my life and so on and so forth.

Speaker 3 My baby was five months old, and my husband confessed that he had been having an affair with that sister before we even got married. Started before we even got married.

Speaker 3 Then three years later, I found out that my other sister also had an affair with him. And the only, the reason why it came out was because

Speaker 3 the first sister was suspecting the other sister and they started arguing about it.

Speaker 3 And then that's why my husband, my ex-husband, decided to confess. So,

Speaker 3 yeah,

Speaker 3 it was still a lot of drama. I was like, guys, can we just

Speaker 3 there was a lot of healing that needed to be done. I understand that.

Speaker 3 That's

Speaker 3 most of why I forgave them.

Speaker 3 I mean, I'm no, clearly, I'm no longer with him. I've not been with him for a while.
And I definitely felt that my relationship with my sisters was more important to maintain.

Speaker 3 I was not ready to end my relationship with them over a man who was not going to be around anymore. So.

Speaker 1 You mentioned in an article that when you go out with your kids, sometimes people will ask you as a joke, are you guys siblings? Yes.

Speaker 3 And you guys have a good little giggle about it.

Speaker 1 What do you guys answer? What is the response?

Speaker 3 Well, the response is: no, that's these are my kids. Like, it's my mom or my daughter.
My daughter is usually the one that responds. I think she's my oldest.
She usually says, No, that's my mom.

Speaker 3 But we do. We always have to look at each other like, if they only knew.

Speaker 3 If they only knew.

Speaker 4 I just want to say, after this, I don't know how many hours of

Speaker 4 episode, I just want to say you are

Speaker 4 one of the best mother.

Speaker 1 I like when you walk in, it's like a bubble of compassion that you walk in with. I don't even know how to describe it.
I just feel very safe around you.

Speaker 3 Really?

Speaker 3 And I'm usually very anxious.

Speaker 1 No, I don't even know how to put into words your energy. It's your energy is crazy.

Speaker 3 wow yeah I

Speaker 1 oh my gosh and I think I mean I can only imagine that your kids are amazing okay so they're all in their 20s now

Speaker 3 my oldest is 31

Speaker 1 yeah

Speaker 1 what are you guys what are your kids doing what are you focused on

Speaker 3 so I'm focused on Precious Little Ladies Incorporated. Our mission is to end sexual abuse, gender-based violence, and incestuous abuse.

Speaker 3 All of my kids are involved in that. They are all involved in that.

Speaker 3 Some of them, it's like an event basis, but others just on a daily basis. My oldest is the most involved.
She loves to sing and write. I think she's still trying to find what she wants to do in life.

Speaker 3 So, you know, but that's up to her. She's definitely a creative, but she's also an introvert.

Speaker 3 And then Manchelle, my second daughter, she also loves to write. Some, I guess, they all took after their mom that they love to write.
She also helps with the organization.

Speaker 3 And then my son, Aloba, he is a dancer. That's Mr.
ASAP Rocky number two.

Speaker 3 I don't really see it. I don't see.

Speaker 1 I don't see the resemblance.

Speaker 3 That could just be because he came from me. I don't know, but I don't see the resemblance.
I see. But yeah, everybody says, everybody says, and he definitely uses it.
But he dances.

Speaker 3 And I'm learning that he actually has a pretty good sitting singing voice sometimes him and arish my oldest will have these jam sessions and he's harmonizing and stuff but he wants to get into acting modeling that kind of thing right now he just has you know a job to pay the bills and then my youngest who is my son for my ex-husband

Speaker 3 he um and it's funny like his role in all of this he's so kind of back and forth but

Speaker 3 you would never know one that they had different fathers because they're just like, they're just siblings all the way. So there is no, oh, you're a half sibling or anything like that.

Speaker 3 He is very active in his, he's about to go to college, actually.

Speaker 3 But everyone is just very creative. They're just very creative.
And then they support me, which is a blessing. I did not go out in public with my story without speaking to them about it first.

Speaker 3 I do check-ins, you know, with them, make sure that they're okay with this. Right now, we are working on a larger project, more like documentary-ish, and Aloba is a natural at it.

Speaker 3 He definitely loves the camera.

Speaker 3 My site, he definitely loves the camera.

Speaker 3 What else? I mean, there's so much, there's a lot going on.

Speaker 1 You wrote your first book. Well, volume one and volume two.
Right. And it sold out the print copies on Amazon.
Yes.

Speaker 3 Which is crazy. Yeah,

Speaker 3 and it's something that does that every now and then. It's like, and then it's on the Amazon top bestsellers list.

Speaker 1 And but it's available on the Kindle version and on your website, yes, the physical copies.

Speaker 3 Yes, so right. Anytime anybody sold out on Amazon or not, you can just go to my website, azusicavi.com, to get it.

Speaker 3 Um, I also have a podcast that chronicles the journey of me writing my book because that has its own drama like one of my sisters is the one who started designing the book cover everybody agreed some people chose their pseudonames and then suddenly everybody was against it so I talk about things like that through the process um I also go into depth on what testifying against my father was like so there's that it's called self-published so you can find it anywhere Gosh.

Speaker 3 And then Precious Little Ladies is preciouslittleladies.org. So there's a lot of information on prevention.
And then Aziza's law.

Speaker 3 So as I talked about incest being legal in New Jersey, I'm working to change that.

Speaker 1 So what is the opposition of not making it illegal?

Speaker 3 That's a very good question. Because I don't understand.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Some people believe, some legislators believe that it may infringe on certain religious belief systems, but New Jersey is only one of two states. Mo, 48 states.
It's illegal across the board.

Speaker 3 So I'm like,

Speaker 3 what's the question? What's going on in New Jersey? Yeah. Right.
That's what a lot of people ask.

Speaker 3 I have yet to find out, but so far it's been echoing that it could infringe on some religious belief systems.

Speaker 3 But I'm pushing anyway.

Speaker 3 So trying to get as many people to reach out to their legislators and even if you don't live in the state, sign our petition on change.org because all of that, having the public encourage legislators that this needs to be criminalized, then will,

Speaker 3 I hope, would push them to do so.

Speaker 1 And there's so much information in your book that we didn't even cover today. You have your own YouTube channel.
You have TikTok.

Speaker 3 Yes, I do. See, I go where eyes are.

Speaker 3 You know, I knew young people who needed to hear my message and

Speaker 3 feel like they weren't alone. They were on TikTok.
So I went to TikTok.

Speaker 1 How has that been like?

Speaker 3 Do you like it? I do. Oh, I enjoy TikTok.
I enjoy TikTok. It's something because people tend to compare TikTok to Instagram

Speaker 3 because they say Instagram, you have to be like rich and bougie, and then TikTok, you can go on there with your bonnet kind of thing. So, but we'll see.

Speaker 3 That's where I do my cooking live streams with my kids on TikTok. Yeah, it's fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and you're working on a second book?

Speaker 3 Yes, I am. I am working on, I guess you can call it a self-help book.
It's more like a self-reflection, it's called the hump. And I use my life experiences as an anecdote on

Speaker 3 ways people can get over their hump and get as far along as the, on their healing journey as possible. But not just dealing with abuse.

Speaker 3 It could be any of any kind of life challenges, whether it be the loss of a job or the loss of a child or a loved one, just really getting over the hump to then find your happiness and thrive. Wow.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 1 That's beautiful. I would listen to a self-help book from you any day.

Speaker 3 I mean, just and that's the thing people have been asking about Unashamed making an audiobook. I started recording it.

Speaker 1 And your voice is good for an audio boud.

Speaker 3 Yeah, let's be perfect, actually.

Speaker 3 So, yeah, I'm looking to get that done by the beginning of next year.

Speaker 1 Okay, poetry?

Speaker 3 Oh, yes. What's going on there? Yeah.

Speaker 3 So, I am,

Speaker 3 my poetry, man.

Speaker 3 So, when I, well, one, I love words. I just love words.
Like, you can't put a word in front of. I have read the covers of all of these, as all of these books have been talked, as we've been talking.

Speaker 3 But when I get in a really emotional state, like I'm a Virgo, so I have pretty good control over my emotions, but there are some times they get overwhelming.

Speaker 3 And that usually comes out in the form of poetry. I use it as an outlet.
So, anything from like heartbreak, I mean, of course, when Coco passed away, oh my gosh, I was writing nonstop.

Speaker 3 But a lot of challenges that I've had in relationships. Yes, I've already wrote a poem about being ghosted.

Speaker 3 But I am going to publish it as a print book, an audio book, and also an album.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's so interesting.

Speaker 1 I love that idea.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Yes.
Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1 Okay, so lots of exciting things.

Speaker 1 We're going to be waiting. We're going to be asking when they're coming.

Speaker 3 So just watch out.

Speaker 3 I will let you know.

Speaker 3 I'll keep you updated.

Speaker 3 Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

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