Sawbones: Dr. Pope

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All right, tomorrow is about to books.

One, two, one, two, three, four.

One, two, three.

We came across a pharmacy with its windows blasted out.

Pushed on through the broken glass and had ourselves a luck around.

The medicines, the medicines, the escalate macabre for the mouth.

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sawbones, a marital tour of misguided medicine.

I'm your co-host, Justin McElroy.

And I'm Sidney McElroy.

And that's it.

That's the shit.

No, I was going to say, hey, habeas papem.

Hey, that's true, Justin.

Habeas papum to you.

We have a pope.

Did you Google that or do you remember it from Conclave?

How did you know to say it?

I got it.

I saw an email.

Oh, you got an email that said that?

From the diocese.

They said, hey,

they had to tell you first.

Amen.

The diocese had to let Justin know.

The smoke, we saw it.

We're about to break the story on the news, but we wanted to let you know first, Captain,

the new pope has arrived.

Pope Leo 13th.

Is that right, 14th?

14th.

14th.

14th.

Yes.

Much better.

You know, they skip the 13th pope.

There's no 13th of any of the names.

They skip from 12 to 14th.

That's not true, Justin.

That is absolutely not true.

And I just learned that.

I just learned that it's not true.

So I think we're already learning a lot.

You just learned two facts in one, Lester.

That's not true because in today's episode, Pope Leo XIII plays a very, I have, he has a mention.

He's got a cameo in this episode.

So I can tell you for a fact there was a 13th because we were thinking about the new pope.

It's very exciting.

He was born in Chicago.

I love Chicago.

Yeah.

Hey,

I famously love Chicago.

I talk about it a lot.

We would probably live in Chicago if you guys didn't get it so darn cold all the time.

Yeah.

Why does it have to be cold there like it is sometimes?

But otherwise, I love Chicago.

So let me just say, first American Pope, and I am just so glad that

the great stuff over here has been recognized and honored.

We have absolutely been crushing it lately.

So happy

God, in his infinite wisdom, saw fit to elevate us to this incredible honor.

Thank you, God, as always.

I don't think that's what's going on.

We've been crushing it.

Courtesy of the red, white, and blue.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

No, I like that the official declaration is he's the second pope from the Americas.

Let's reduce our importance in this.

Anyway, he was not a Caucasus.

This is not, well, we are going to talk about a Pope.

We're not going to talk about the new Pope, although I am looking forward to him reversing all the rivers in Italy, as I assume he will just like in chicago yeah i love chicago

maybe make them green make them green on st.

Patrick's Day yeah I don't know anyway that got us thinking about popes and medicine now we usually think about what did popes do before they were popes well they did other religious stuff right like that's what you assume you don't have a lot of what you might describe as like non-traditional popes non-traditional students being elevated to pope like a late-in-life switch to the clergy and you're like well you know know what i it's not too late i might squeeze in there you don't hear

there's not a lot of popes with side gigs yeah right but like no they usually not a lot of multi-hyphenate popes no there aren't and i even i was watching interviews with the new pope's brothers who were talking about how as a kid he used to make them play church and he would be priest that so like he always wanted to be pope really yeah and so that's and that's usually true they're usually like priests and missionaries and bishops monsignors they're cardinals and then they become a pope so they don't really have another sort of thing that they did.

But once upon a time, there was a doctor pope.

They call him doctor Pope.

Good morning.

How are you?

I would also like to, as I was researching what is commonly known as the only doctor pope, the only physician pope, there's only been one pope that we accept studied medicine and was a physician prior to his pope life, prior to his papacy.

We're going to talk about him.

I did have several people mention that there was a long time where there was another pope, Paul, who was thought to have been a doctor.

So there was some discrepancy.

Like, is this pope we're going to talk about?

Pope John.

Hey, are there any antipopes in this story?

I just found out about antipopes.

Yeah, I'm going to let

you tell people about antipopes.

Oh, good.

I just learned about it yesterday.

So I'm something of an expert.

Yeah.

So Pope John XXI was the only physician pope.

Pope Paul, who was sometimes referred to as a physician, never studied medicine, but was a big fan of sending

treatments and cures to friends when they got sick.

They'd be like, I'm sick.

And he's like, no, I got just the thing for you.

So he was like a freelance, but not a doctor.

A hobbyist.

We all know a person like that.

You're like, man, I was feeling this.

You know, I had a stomachache or my head hurt or whatever.

And they're like, oh, oh, oh, I have the best thing for you.

Nobody's going to tell you about this.

Let me make it up for you.

I'll make you a bottle of it.

Drink this.

You're going to be fine.

So Pope John XXI was the only actual doctor pope that we've ever had.

So, let's talk about him.

Who was this guy?

What did he do?

And then, how did he become pope?

And, of course, there's going to be some like

you know,

conclave intrigue.

Of course, there is.

If you haven't seen that movie, you really should.

Yeah, it's good.

It's very, very exciting.

Yeah.

So, okay, Pedro

Pascal.

No, Julia

quite a twist.

No, of Lisbon, Lisbon.

Was born sometime between 1210 and 1220.

We obviously don't know a ton about his early days.

We know his parents

and that he was born sometime in that decade.

Clearly, we don't have a lot of details if we're like, he was born sometime in this 10-year span.

Notoriously cagey about his age, like all boats.

The details are murky.

I mean, it's the 1200s.

It's a long time ago.

Details are murky.

He studied at the University of Paris.

That's really where we start to like, you can read about what he did and wrote and said, is when he's studying at the University of Paris.

His life up until then, we don't really know.

I mean, back then, you really had to do something big.

Like, we didn't have the printing press yet.

Yeah.

So it would be a big deal if you were elevated to a point where we wrote about you.

So at the University of Paris, he studied under William of Sherwood.

or William Sherwood, who was a famous, famous English philosopher, scholar,

logician.

This was like Francis Bacon was a contemporary.

We're talking about the time where the idea of science and reason and logic is starting to

spread again.

Like

we're about to enter the Renaissance, right?

And so we're beginning to.

It's a dovetail.

Yeah, yeah.

We're beginning to think about these things again.

And of course, William of Sherwood, obviously, we would all know who he was

because of his very famous mnemonic that helps students remember all of the valid syllogistic forms.

Let's Sidney hear it.

Well, Justin, as we can all quote from,

you could quote it from memory.

But I shan't.

I don't do it as well as you do it.

You've always done it so much better than me.

Barbara Celerant, Dari, Ferric, Prioris, Cesare, Camestris, Festino, Barocco, Secunde, Tertia, Deropti, Disamus, Datisi,

Bocardo Ferrison Habit Quarta in Super Adit Brahmontip Caminus Demaris Fisapo Frescisson gosh it's like we all know it it's like in my bones you know when I when I read that this was the the you know the most famous mnemonic poem that all students of syllogism know

I felt so small yeah I mean I've never studied

you know

logic

you're You're not a student of syllogism, so why should you be expected to, like.

It's just, it was the way it was presented.

Like, you know, the famous mnemonic device to re to anyway.

So my point is that he was studying science.

He was studying logic.

This is, this was where he began to make a name for himself.

He studied with other great thinkers, and he began to be known at that point as Peter of Spain or Petrus Hispanus and his first work

or Peter of Hispania there's a lot of names anyway his first work was published under that name and it was the Sumulae logicalis the tractatus and it was a a textbook that they use at that point for the study of logic mainly derived from like Aristotle thoughts how to what extent do you have to be from Spain to get of Spain like appended to your name like if I was going to be like Justin of West Virginia, how like would I have to be just the biggest Justin in West Virginia or like the first or how do you, how do you claim that?

I mean, he was from Portugal, so he just rolled up and he was like, now I'm of Spain.

Yeah.

I mean, he was studying at the University of Spain.

Is that how Madonna got the British accent when she married Guy Richie?

Exactly.

He just got to be of Spain because he wrote a book while he was there.

And I will say, I read so much about

because of the time, because it was a really really long time ago, and because we don't have all of the greatest written records of everything, there was a lot of debate.

Is Peter of Spain and Petrus Hispanus and Pope John XXI,

is this all the same guy?

Like there, there, there is a big, there is a question there.

Now, we are pretty certain this is all the same guy.

We feel very confident that we are talking about a singular human when we talk about all this.

But there was a long time where there was a thought, like, no, no, no, no, no.

There was a pope who was named, you know, Peter, who was from not from portugal he was from the dominican and that was this guy and then this was a different guy switching is tough for history to keep track of i bet true in the old timey old timey stuff it's like which one was this because it's harder to keep track of the records right so no it's absolutely true and there and we'll even get into like there's some dispute as to whether this was actually john the 20th or 21st so anyway the point is we are pretty we're pretty certain now that peter of spain is the same guy who would later become pope meaning that this guy who studied logic who wrote a textbook about logic, about logic and reason that was used at the time in universities, also then went on to study medicine.

And that was pretty normal again at the time.

You know, if you are a scholar and you're studying sort of one field, you're studying theology, you're studying reason, you're studying science, you may move into medicine.

Yeah, it makes sense.

That's kind of an overlapping of all this.

Exactly.

Well, everything was still pretty intertwined.

We're just beginning the period of the Renaissance.

So the idea that we're going to start separating out, especially like religion and science and, you know, religious practices and medicinal practices, they're still tightly connected at this point.

So him being a member of a religious order and then also studying medicine.

Not even though we didn't have another Dr.

Pope, that wouldn't have been that strange, right?

Makes sense.

So he decided to focus on medicine.

That became his area of interest.

And he gained a great reputation after he studied medicine.

He became a teacher and a scholar of medicine.

He was, There is evidence that he practiced within his community, that there were people who went and saw him and that he provided medical care for people.

So he didn't just think and talk about medicine with students.

He practiced medicine.

And then at one point, he published his first medical text, which was called A Dietetic Treatment of Surgical Patients, at the request of one of his colleagues who said, This is too good.

You know so much about treating surgical patients.

And, you know,

I think you should write a book about it.

And he's like,

you get too busy to help?

He's like, Why would I get too busy?

He's like, I don't know.

Maybe what if you

become pope?

Just like to pull a random one, you know, yeah, that's true.

Have you thought about that?

I'm a local physician.

What are the odds of me a doctor becoming pope?

Uh, I can tell you the odds of me a doctor becoming pope.

What's that, Sid?

Zero.

Zero.

Yes.

Yes.

They wouldn't let me.

Because,

well, that list is long.

Too busy.

Too busy.

I think girl would be first

in the reasons.

Yes.

And not American anymore, though.

No, that wouldn't be a problem.

The cheeseburger ceiling has been shattered.

Thank you.

I don't know, though.

A pope from Chicago is one thing.

A pope from West Virginia, the world isn't ready.

The world will never be ready.

No, I don't think.

No.

And

certainly not a lady pope.

A lady pope.

A lady pope.

We don't let that happen.

So his greatest medical work.

So he published this and he began to be well known as a physician.

But then he wrote the Thesaurus Popperum, which is also the treasury or pharmacopoeia of the poor.

So it's the poor man's medical book, basically.

Cool.

Like,

here is a collection of stuff that the idea is you can put this stuff together probably in your own house.

So here are a bunch of treatments and cures that you could have.

You have this book on your shelf.

Somebody's got a sickness.

You look through.

There's something in here.

You can probably piece together.

You can't afford a trip to the physiquer.

You're going to try to handle it on your own.

You can use stuff that you can find in your own kitchen or barnyard or someone's

body if you're in one room.

Yeah.

So, um, he and the owl nests.

Check the local owl nests.

You never know what, what sort of ungens and treatments you might find.

So he uh, he collected all of these.

And it really, like, if you look through it, I've been reading through it and I'm, I'm reading through it.

Um, it was copied in re recopied in Old English.

I'm having a heck of a time.

There's, I will tell you, there's so many cures for eyes.

There are some articles about him, probably written by ophthalmologists, where he is known as the first or the pope ophthalmologist, not just the pope doctor, but the pope.

Specifically, yeah, like Dibs.

And he did, he did, he wrote an entire other book about eyes, but he also wrote a lot about treatments for the eyes in this book.

There's a lot of stuff he wants you to pour in your eyes.

And it's always tough because like the S's are F's in these

in these books.

And so it's hard to read what anyway.

I know that like cream made of sheep's milk is popular.

There's something with like white ginger and salt pounded together and pouring that in your eyes.

There's a lot of stuff that he is trusting you want to put in your eyes in this book.

But there's, I mean, they're really recipes.

And now some of them are kind of gross.

Sure.

I mean, I mean, very gross.

And then there are others that almost have like a magical edge to them.

Like you do it at certain times times of day, or you know what I mean?

Like they almost, we're still drawing on this kind of time period where everything,

I mean, and that's probably spiritualism is what he's connected to as much as he is the science.

He's drawing on a belief system.

He is, but aren't you like, okay, this is complicated, but like, is

at this time period when we have, when we don't have a full and holistic, like a full complete understanding of all the science that is involved involved with this.

I mean, I think it's easy for us to look back and say that there's this clear, like it's a blend, but like when you don't know it all, you probably are having to take some things on faith, right?

There is guesswork and there is like best guesses and things like that, right?

And I mean, you definitely see that reflected.

Like it's kind of a mixed bag.

He has a lot of science in what he's attempting to do.

Like he's trying to use logic, like this works for this and this works, you know, he's trying to apply that.

But at the same time,

he was still like big into astrology.

So like the planets have a big influence on your body and your health status and that's reflected in there.

But on the flip side, he does move us away from like superstition.

You don't see a lot about charms or demons or the idea of like this is a punishment from God versus this is like possession.

Like you don't see that stuff reflected in there anymore.

So he's moving us away from that.

Like I said, he wrote a whole book about eye diseases, specifically, Libra de Oculo.

And

it didn't have a lot in it that was right.

Well, sure, okay, you know.

But I mean, it was, it was referenced and built upon.

Yeah.

A lot of people read it.

That's something.

Michelangelo copied prescriptions from it later on.

So, like, I mean, it was, you know, praise indeed.

That's a blurb.

Michelangelo says, you know, the reviews are in.

Michelangelo says, I copied some pictures from this.

I love it.

It was a, it was a, it was a stone in the ivory tower of academia.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But then he has stuff in there where he's like, so he was really famous specifically for something that he called his Aquamirabilis Wonderwater.

Aqua Water.

Or Wonder Water.

Yeah.

Is what people would call it.

He was, he was a household name.

Like every, like you would know this, kind of like

Dr.

Spock.

No, wait.

Dr.

Spock or Mr.

Spock?

Dr.

Spock from

the doctor that everybody used to listen to about kids.

Okay, thank you.

Yes, Dr.

Spock.

That kind of colloquial like folk.

You know what I mean?

Like, everybody had this guy's book on their shelf.

Yeah.

And we're talking like people were copying it.

This is a big deal.

So, anyway, everybody knew about Wonder Water.

It was either filings of some gold.

I thought we were going to talk about Star Trek for a second.

No, Dr.

Spock.

Yeah.

Everybody knew about Wonder Water.

It was filings of either silver, gold, or copper in a boy's urine.

Sure.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

So, and there were other, there were gross things in there.

Like I could decipher that you could put pig poop in your nose if you had a nosebleed.

Huh?

Unlike the boy pea.

Unlike the boy pee.

There were gross things.

Well, even, I don't know.

What's grosser?

Boy pea or pig poop in your nose.

You can

drink the ashes of a swallow if you're drunk.

Turpentine suppositories, I think, for fevers.

And then he talks about eating the, and I really tried to Google this and figure out what this is, the lights of a sheep, L-E-G-H-T-E-S.

If anybody knows

what piece of a sheep I'm supposed to eat,

L E-G-H-T-E-S.

I don't know

what part of a sheep that is.

And I kept trying, I kept getting like, did you mean lights?

Did you mean sheep lights?

And then they're showing me like these little like yard decorations that are lit up sheep.

And I'm like, no, I don't want sheep lights.

I'm trying to figure out what I'm supposed to eat.

Please.

Because I'm drunk.

I don't know.

I'm drunk.

I'm hungover.

I need to eat sheeps.

He also describes something that he calls an iliac passion, which is probably an early description of appendicitis.

That's pretty cool.

Anyway, so all of this to say, it was a mixed bag in terms of our modern understanding of disease, but he became a household name for the recipes that he published that anybody could access medical treatment.

So how did this doctor become Pope?

I'm going to tell you, but first we got to go to the billing department.

Let's go.

The medicines, the medicines that escalate my cows for the mouth.

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So how did this doctor?

Well, see, you set it up for me last time.

So I thought that like, okay, this time, like, we would reverse it.

You ready?

Try it again.

Okay.

So, how did this doctor become Poe?

Wow, that was good, said.

Yeah, really.

That sounded really exciting.

So, it's important to understand there was a lot of turmoil in the church of Rome at this time.

And I say at this time as if like that was the only time in history where this idea where we have this really powerful church and then we also have all these monarchies and they're all competing for like who's in charge as if that wasn't probably always causing some degree of tension, you know, I would imagine.

There was a previous pope.

Innocent IV, who had excommunicated the previous emperor of Rome and had created this sort of like split between different factions.

There were the Italians and the French who were really like battling for who is going to run the church, who's going to have like the most influence over the kingdom, over the combined

world powers.

There was a lot of power at that point because of this excommunication in the hands of the French Catholics and specifically Charles Anjou, who eventually would become king of Sicily and was a very important.

You can read all about this guy if you want to, all of his conquests and all of his

various

wars and actions, whatever.

But the point is, he would use his reign to influence the election of the next pope.

This was very common at the time, that you would have all these political leaders.

And to this day, I would say it's fair that there is a political influence in what is happening

in those conclaves and as they're choosing the next pope, there, obviously, the fact that we have an American pope right now, we keep talking about

no one, I don't think anybody knows for certain what that means politically,

but it's hard to think it doesn't mean something.

It means something, right?

Some sort of impact,

so yeah.

So, anyway, um, at that point, we have a lot of influence from this, you know, prominent French Charles over

Charles of French.

He would, he would use his reign to influence the election of the next pope after Gregory X died.

Sorry, he preferred Gregory X.

Greg X.

Call me Greg X.

Pope Greg X.

Call me Papa Greg X.

And Pope Innocent V, who was the next pope to take over, who Charles wanted, was very happy.

They needed a break after Pope Greg X.

They needed a nice

innocent, cool pope.

Innocent V.

So Innocent V takes over, and

he really,

he's okay with sort of taking orders from Charles.

Like, he elevated his powers in many ways, gave him more, expanded his titles.

I don't know.

Everybody is like emperor and king and ruler and whatever of something.

And so he gave him a lot more power.

And he didn't mind to do that.

And Charles was very pleased with this.

But unfortunately, Pope Innocent V only lasted six months.

I mean,

they're mainly kind of older guys.

You got to get some

young popes, y'all.

Got to get some young popes.

So Charles wanted to ensure, after Pope Innocent V died, he wanted to ensure that the next conclave went his way.

So he decided we've got to put pressure on these cardinals to do this fast.

And if they know I'm watching, and if also I make it super uncomfortable, the whole conclave process I want to make so uncomfortable that I'm, I can use that pressure to get another French guy or another guy who will be loyal to me me in this seat.

So he issued a series of decrees for the Lyon Council for this conclave.

And basically, not only would the Cardinals be sequestered, which they still are to this day, right?

We know they put them all in there.

A lot has been said about how they can't have Instagram, which I guess all the, I don't know if all the cardinals are on Instagram, but we put them all in there.

They can't communicate with the outside world until they're done and have picked a pope and then they can come back out.

That's why they picked it so fast this time.

I'd be like, listen.

We can't, we got to get out.

Listen, we got to get out.

I'm missing all my stories, guys.

We've got to get out.

Charles of Anjou did not have Instagram to pressure them with, but what he did have is access to food and wine.

So what he said was, not only are we going to lock you in this building, by the way, it's July.

Okay.

It's hot.

We're in Italy.

It's, it's in, it's hot.

But not only are we going to lock you in there, we're shutting on the doors and windows.

It was said that not a bird would be able to enter this conclave.

So like, and there's no air conditioning, you know, it's 1200s.

So it's super hot and we are going to give you a limited amount of only bread and wine.

That is all you get.

You get bread and wine and you only get so much.

So if you stay in there too long, you will all starve to death.

So I would advise you to pick a freaking pope and be quick about it.

Yes.

So they did all this.

He did all this to pressure them and try to get them to act fast, but it didn't work.

They instead did choose one of the Italian cardinals, which was a big deal because he really was trying to wrestle away all this power from Italy.

So he didn't want an Italian cardinal elevated to pope.

But one became pope, Pope Adrian V.

But the conclave shenanigans did work in some way because

it was so hard on his body.

It took such a toll on him, this process, that Pope Adrian V was only pope for 38 days

before he passed away.

That's tough.

Yes.

Now,

one of the few things he was able to accomplish in his very short papacy was to

revoke all of those rules that had been put in place for the previous conclave.

Like, we won't do that next time.

It'll be better for the next guy.

So then they had to do another conclave.

Okay, well, first of all, it was delayed because everybody had just gone home, right?

Right.

Now you got to get them all back.

And again, there aren't planes or anything.

So you've got to get all the cardinals back.

So it took an extra like 10 days than it was supposed to to pull everybody back.

And all of the town, townsfolk in Viterbo, which is where that was the province where this was taking place, were becoming very restless.

They're like, they're mad.

They're sort of like yelling in the streets and pounding on the doors and they want this thing to happen.

So there's a lot of public pressure on it.

And there's still a lot of political pressure on it.

So everybody's watching this conclave.

The heavy favorite was Cardinal Deacon John Orsini, but he was an Italian again.

And they really change your pace.

And they're they're scared now because they almost got starved last time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so they're like, oh man, we really don't want to make French Charles mad by letting Orsini be Pope.

So in a much shorter conclave than was predicted, the Cardinals decided on a compromise candidate.

Can I guess?

Yes.

Is it Peter of Spain?

It is Peter of Spain, Portuguese Cardinal Pedros Hispanus, Pope John XXI.

Now, on an interesting note, we are only certain of 19 Pope John's prior to this pope, which would make him John the 20th.

Wouldn't it be easy to ascertain the John before him, at least?

Well,

he was originally, there are some writings where he is noted as John the 20th originally.

But then when he died, it said it was marked as John the 21st.

So there's a chance it was a typo is why this happened.

And like an extra line got etched somewhere, right?

So that's possible.

Problem with Roman numerals.

Others think that this is because the reign of John XIV got split in half because he was in prison for a period of time.

And when he came out, some people think that we started calling him John the 15th as if, like, he's all new, like a shiny new pope.

But yeah, forget John XIV.

He went to jail.

John the 15th got out of jail.

Yeah, he's a good guy.

So there's a chance.

That's why, is that the same guy was both John the 14th and 15th.

We just sort of divided it up.

Others think that it's the anti-pope to Gregory V, V, who was also called John XVI.

Would you like to tell us what an anti-pope is, John?

Okay, listen, this is probably wrong, but this is my understanding of it.

It's basically a pope that is elevated in opposition to a different pope or a pope that is

chosen by a conclave, usually supported by a sect within the church or a part of the government.

That's it.

Anti-pope.

And they think that because there was an anti-pope that was John XVII, that this may have thrown off the count.

Yes, sometimes it's unclear historically which is a pope and which is the anti-pope.

Especially in this time period, there's a lot of antipopes running around.

There is also a legend that may have influenced this.

By the way, I read this whole thing.

I don't think,

I have no reason to believe this is true, but I do think it's fun to share this kind of legend.

I mean, you know, so just take this for what it is.

This is a fun story.

There's a legend of a popess.

Oh.

Popess Joanna, who followed her lover into the monastery.

She didn't want him to leave her, so she pretended to be a monk, pretended to be a man, took the name John,

and did so well that she ascended through the ranks and was named Pope.

But that's more of a conspiracy theory.

It's a conspiracy theory because the idea is that then she got pregnant and she had a vision that either she could like have the child conceal this whole thing and continue to be pope and then she'd go to hell or she could

admit and then you know repent and then she would be welcomed into heaven and so she did that and so was no longer pope i don't this none of this is true but anyway this was one of the theories as to how the count how the john count got got thrown off right

so

one of the first things he did was agree that with the last pope that we shouldn't starve the cardinals yeah i'm glad we could reach a consensus on that do you know why also why there was all this

stir about it, around it?

It took them three years to elect Pope Gregory X.

That's how long that conclave last year.

Oh, that's so irritating.

You can see why there would be this, like, can't we make these guys hurry sort of argument?

Now, obviously, you shouldn't starve them, but I can understand why they were thinking, like, there's got, how do we limit this?

Yeah, you know, ridiculous.

We got to put some time limits on it.

Right.

He was not liked by the higher clergy because he was very approachable to everyone.

He was easy to talk to, and he seemed like a regular guy.

And so the other the other cardinals and such didn't like him much.

He was called learned and silly, a wise fool upon the sacred chair, a man without presence or dignity who loved learning and hated monks.

Loved learning, hates monks.

Loved learning and hated monks.

He did many things that argued him to be guilty of folly and levity and does not deserve commendation unless it be for one thing, and that was that he assisted young scholars, especially the poorer sort, with money and preferment.

So his scholarliness, his education, his focus on academia was actually something that they really didn't like about him.

That actually was a major strike against him.

And at the time, part of this is because the study of science and medicine is still kind of magic.

It's not magic, but it's very closely related to magic still.

We haven't moved to that time period where we can clearly separate like that is a medicine and not a potion.

The two things were very intertwined.

So anyway,

he was not particularly loved among the other, you know, people within, within the Vatican.

He liked the Franciscans and the work that they did for the poor.

He wasn't a Franciscan, but he was a big fan of the idea of helping the poor.

He tried to address tithing.

Tithing was a big deal at the time.

The churches had to send a tenth of everything they collected to Rome, like to the church, right?

And he, he had all these people from mainly Scotland and England coming to him saying, like, can we stop this?

Like, can we please?

Like, we're all poor here.

Like, there, people are rich and we're poor and we, you know, stuck together.

It's a fancy place you got here.

It's ridiculous.

I know.

This is ridiculous.

And he did redirect money for a while, but it was to the Crusades.

Oh, great.

He didn't, he didn't have, and his papacy was fairly short.

So he didn't, he didn't necessarily, you know, achieve a whole bunch of stuff.

He tried to unite some churches.

He tried to convert some people.

He didn't really fight Charles of Anjou, but he didn't, he didn't bow to his whims either.

And then he found out that there were some documents from Paris and Oxford that were creating a stir.

They may have some heretical documents.

People were responding to them.

Anyway, he was called upon.

We're going to send you these documents.

We need you to study them and tell us how this relates to the church, to, you know, to Catholicism, right?

So he had had a study chamber built behind the papal palace.

So his own little, and which again, this was unique.

He had his own little place,

his own little study shack.

It was an old temple of Hercules, and now it's a study chamber for the pope.

And on May 14th, 1277, the Pope went into his study chamber with these documents to figure out if they were heretical or not.

And the ceiling crashed down upon him and crushed him.

Wow.

He died six days later.

For a while after he died, people started trying to spread rumors that he was a necromancer and he was about to sell his soul to the devil.

And that's why the roof crashed in.

That's not true.

But his enemies did try to spread, tried to malign his character.

Pre-rock and roll, though.

Pre-rocking the story.

And I promised Pope Leo XIII would get a mention here.

He was buried there.

And then really, we didn't talk much about him for a long time until 1886 when Pope Leo XIII and the Portuguese ambassador erected a new monument to him

because he was the first pope.

From Portugal.

Cool.

Well, there you go.

That's the story of Dr.

Pope.

He was a doctor, and he was the pope.

He was Dr.

Pope.

Thank you so much for listening to our podcast.

It's called Sawbones.

Thanks to the taxpayers for the use of their song Medicines as the intro and outro of our program.

Thanks to everybody who came out and saw us at the Renaissance Fair.

I know we said that previously, but thank you again.

Thank you so much.

It was such a great event.

Yep.

That is going to do it for us.

Until next time, my name is Justin McElroy.

I'm Sidney McRoy.

As always, don't drill a hole in your head.

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