"John Williams"

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Speaker 3 Hey guys, welcome to the cold open.

Speaker 2 Hey, anything you'd like to say?

Speaker 3 No, Will, you can't start a cold open with a yawn. Sorry, dude.
Sean, anything to fire up the cold open with?

Speaker 2 You want a dad joke?

Speaker 3 Yeah, open up the book.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 Sorry, listener, just give us one second. Welcome to our cold open.

Speaker 2 Did you hear about the cheese that's been working out?

Speaker 3 I didn't. What happened?

Speaker 1 The dude is shredded.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Welcome to Smartless. Smart.

Speaker 2 Lettl.

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Speaker 2 Lettless.

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Speaker 3 Hello, my name is Jason. Hi, Jason.

Speaker 1 Sean.

Speaker 3 I'd love to pod with you guys. Are you guys up for podding?

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 3 Get your pod up. Let's get this potty, this podding started.

Speaker 2 Let's get this potty started.

Speaker 2 That's a good one. I never heard that.
Let's get this potty started.

Speaker 3 Anything worth talking about?

Speaker 1 I looked up right before this. I was looking up how to survive a nuclear war.

Speaker 2 Jason had a good one.

Speaker 3 Uh-huh. Yeah.
Mark it down.

Speaker 3 I know.

Speaker 3 Will, anything exciting in your life today?

Speaker 2 This morning? Still just in recovery.

Speaker 1 Do you want to know how to survive a nuclear? Oh, really?

Speaker 2 You're still trying to kick your virus. Yeah.
Sean, what were you saying? You want to win? Do you want to know how to survive a nuclear war or a nuclear bomb? Okay. Run.

Speaker 1 So you've got to cover your eyes and get down, and then you've got to find a basement or something.

Speaker 2 Okay, man. And we'll be right back.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 I read a headline this morning when I got up. Like, you know, North Korea has like, is ready to, you know, they're always saying whatever.

Speaker 3 You know, we're doing a happy feel-good

Speaker 2 podcast here.

Speaker 1 I'd like just to say, really quick, Jason, I missed you.

Speaker 2 Okay, sorry, do you want to make a statement? I do. I would just like to say,

Speaker 2 if I can get in here.

Speaker 1 Wait, Willie's got a really, we got a really fast, good joke for Jason today.

Speaker 2 Well, about the fact that

Speaker 2 dogs can't do MRIs, but cats can.

Speaker 2 Okay, so here we go. Great.
Did you guys get on early?

Speaker 1 We both watched the same TikTok video.

Speaker 3 Oh, no. I don't have the TikTok.

Speaker 2 Anyway, Sean's got a few written down. Go ahead, Sean.
He wrote them. No, I got it.

Speaker 2 By the way, he went back and he wrote them down. Go ahead, Sean.

Speaker 1 I know. You want to hear another one?

Speaker 1 Milk is the fastest liquid on earth. It's past your eyes before we can even see it.

Speaker 2 Not bad. Okay.

Speaker 3 Is there anything else you want to help

Speaker 3 the people driving to finish off their car accident with?

Speaker 1 No, because they're going to get super excited about our guests today. And now, listen, I love when we get a true living legend on this podcast.

Speaker 1 My guest today served our country in the Air Force, became a renowned jazz musician, and then eventually moved to Hollywood to work on some of the biggest films in motion picture history.

Speaker 1 I'm sure you're going to guess who it is right away. He is the single most Academy Award-nominated living person.
And after Walt Disney, he's the second most nominated person of all time.

Speaker 1 Anyone in the world from all walks of life could hum his work guys it's the illustrious incomparable one of my heroes johns williams got it no way yes incredible

Speaker 2 look at this

Speaker 2 good day sir this is so cool unbelievable hi john hello gentlemen how are you today

Speaker 2 pictures of all three of you yeah and you look uh healthy to me like three nfl players on their day off

Speaker 2 that's stretching it so sean how how is it possible you could play Oscar Levance? Well,

Speaker 3 I don't know. It shocked us, too.

Speaker 1 Because I don't look anything like him, I know.

Speaker 2 No, I know.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I worked on all the things an actor should work on.

Speaker 2 Did you voice the walk this time? Research a lot of things.

Speaker 1 I did. I read all his books.

Speaker 1 I went to the archives at the

Speaker 1 Paley Center where they have all the old footage. And I just spent, you know, a couple days there looking at stuff.
and then I downloaded some stuff on YouTube.

Speaker 1 You know, you just go nuts when you try to do something like that.

Speaker 2 Did you have to go to the piano and sort of?

Speaker 1 This is supposed to be about you, John Williams.

Speaker 3 John, did you get a chance to see Sean

Speaker 3 do his play on Broadway? No.

Speaker 2 No, no. Oh, he was just

Speaker 2 incredible. I mean,

Speaker 3 you would have been very impressed with his piano playing ability,

Speaker 3 somebody who would know what to look for. This guy is classically trained, it he did he did the entire um rhapsody in blue um solo on on on stage on a uh that's fantastic on a grand piano

Speaker 2 now sean who who did the first pian performance of the piano concerto of gershwin was it oscar No, it was Gershwin, but Oscar recorded the most famous recording of it. Oh, did he? Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, and that's what Oscar was known for, and he tried to, it's a very soliary, Mozart kind of relationship where they uh a love-hate where where where oscar tried you know revered gershwin and but could never be quite like the books are wonderful yeah his his wit and the whole thing i met him once in the office oh you did yes in the office of louis b mayer oh wow

Speaker 2 accompanying howard keel and a woman's name i can't remember and they were auditioning Howard and the girl for Louis B. Mayer.
And he had people from the music department, including Oscar

Speaker 2 at this audition. And it was in Mayer's office where there was a piano.

Speaker 2 And I just came in, you know, sheepishly through the back door to accompany these people and then leave before the discussion started. Really? I've always adored Oscar Levant.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's that's fantastic. You know, he was a student of Schoenberg.
Did you know that? Wow. You were

Speaker 2 Oscar was. Oh, yeah, it was a very simple.

Speaker 1 Well, Oscar was.

Speaker 2 You said you were? No, no, no, Michael. Who Oscar was.
Yes, I knew that.

Speaker 2 But how can I help you guys? What on earth can can I possibly give you?

Speaker 3 You've already done plenty by agreeing to do this.

Speaker 2 Yeah, John, you just tipped the fact that you said that you were in Louis B. Mayer's office, which is such a mind-blow.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 By the way, I'm Will. It's such a pleasure to meet you.

Speaker 1 For Tracy, he was a big

Speaker 1 studio head, like Mogul.

Speaker 2 Film executive, yeah. What were those days like? What were the people, these old sort of iconic studio heads like, guys like Louis B.
Mayer?

Speaker 2 What was your experience with gentlemen like that back in the day?

Speaker 2 Well, of course, I really didn't have contact or access to them.

Speaker 2 I did have a relationship with Lou Wasserman, actually, but he was of a younger generation than the Warner Brothers.

Speaker 2 Jack Warner, I used to go to the previews of the Warner Brothers films that I did, and Jack Warner always went to those. And I met him three or four times at those previews.

Speaker 2 And he knew I had something to do with music. I never knew my name.
So he referred to me as Beethoven.

Speaker 2 At the end of the preview, he would say, Beethoven, we need a little more music in Real Five, and I'd just say, yes, sir, we'll do that.

Speaker 2 But the other moguls, I'm afraid, were a generation beyond me. But what I would say about them, I think, is they were all ideologues in a way.

Speaker 2 Early motion picture entrepreneurs, probably a little, well, I say ideologues, they were probably a little bit naive in

Speaker 2 their approach to the world. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Were they as showman-y and as gregarious as they're portrayed in the movies, as these guys smoking big cigars and, you know, screaming out orders and stuff like that?

Speaker 2 I think businessmen more than anything, you know, from Eastern Europe, from Brooklyn, from across the country to Hollywood.

Speaker 2 and really creating from the ground up the business that has been so wonderful all through the last century, now of course threatened by all kinds of forces, technology of all kinds, and

Speaker 2 worldwide production of film

Speaker 2 that not eclipses Hollywood, but it puts it in a different kind of a

Speaker 2 frame of lighting and

Speaker 2 creativity.

Speaker 2 John, what would you say?

Speaker 2 That's an interesting point you made. What would you say, in your opinion, is the greatest threat to this wonderful film industry that has been around for so long now.

Speaker 2 What, in your view right now, is its most sort of imminent threat to what we've got?

Speaker 2 Well, probably

Speaker 2 the access and easy availability to all manner of things on film and whatever that is available at home.

Speaker 2 So the great, I mean, just to be flip about it, I mean, the great impediments might be said to be traffic jams and parking lots.

Speaker 2 You know, the thing of going to movies has become more difficult,

Speaker 2 I think, for people, and the alternatives more easy to access.

Speaker 2 But we lose something.

Speaker 2 I think there's a

Speaker 2 the old movie theaters were kinds of sort of temples where people would gather.

Speaker 2 It was a communal connection once a week, you'd go to the movies or twice a week in this special atmosphere that had a spiritual vibe to it, and people were collecting there.

Speaker 2 It was almost like going to church in a way.

Speaker 2 The proscenium, the beautiful theater and so on.

Speaker 2 And there was a magic in all of that, I think, that attracted people.

Speaker 2 And we don't have that anymore, even in the newly constructed theaters.

Speaker 2 have far less, they're utilitarian, of course, but far less imagination in the way the stages are constructed and so on. Right.

Speaker 2 I think in terms of, I don't don't know if this is off the subject, but we think of the music of Bach three or 400 years ago.

Speaker 2 There were no concert halls. If you wanted to hear music, you had to go to church to hear an organ, to hear people sing, and that's where you received your music.

Speaker 2 You wanted to hear a Bach cantata, you heard it in church.

Speaker 2 Not in the concert hall.

Speaker 2 The concert hall is... in a way constructed to ring the

Speaker 2 antiquarian bells, I guess you could say,

Speaker 2 our collective memory, that we're gathered for something very, very special. We listen to Beethoven in this atmosphere.
Right. Or we go and we watch Carrie Grant and Audrey Hepburn in that atmosphere.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's so interesting. I think all of the social changes and

Speaker 2 pragmatic aspects of all of this has changed so much that I think that spiritual aspect of the experience of seeing films is largely gone. A complex series of reasons for that.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I think I think they are.

Speaker 3 From a technological

Speaker 3 perspective, have you found that you've changed, wanted to change, resisted change, had to change the way in which you think about

Speaker 3 your scores in that when people are watching at home, for the most part, they're not in the best sound environment possible. A lot of them are watching in stereo.

Speaker 3 Some have the sort of the surround button pressed on their television, but they're still,

Speaker 3 they're not getting the kind of experience audio-wise that they get in a theater.

Speaker 3 And do you find that that affects the way you think about creating a balance of instruments and where they would live in the channels?

Speaker 2 I think the answer has to be no, because when I'm working,

Speaker 2 I'm thinking of some kind of ideal that I know is ever going to be there.

Speaker 2 It makes me want to say,

Speaker 2 there are other differences. I think the technologies and special effects that can be accomplished make it unnecessary

Speaker 2 to do a 10-minute one take

Speaker 2 complicated dance number by Fred Astaire where the actual performance is something that is breathtaking.

Speaker 2 We don't know that it's not edited, but

Speaker 2 we can feel that

Speaker 2 aspect of physical physical exertion and mastery of one's body.

Speaker 2 Same is true of singing. The same can be said of orchestras, I think, also.

Speaker 2 The difference between so much beautiful work, by the way, of sound design that's done in combination with orchestra is now a wonderful development.

Speaker 2 However, if we have a scene that's four minutes long,

Speaker 2 And the orchestra is going to play that in the studio.

Speaker 2 We may make five takes of that four-minute scene,

Speaker 2 and each one is different.

Speaker 2 One take is alive,

Speaker 2 is a performance that is above and beyond spiritually all the other four.

Speaker 2 And you have to believe that the audience will respond to that. It's like live performances, as you all know, are different every night.

Speaker 2 Some night is full of magic, and the next night

Speaker 2 it's flat. We say the audience isn't good.
Right. Or however we want to say that's right.

Speaker 2 So I think technology has affected the performance aspect of film, making it very easy to sort of mock up something that is beyond most people's ability to do. Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1 Which brings me to a question I have about your process. I read somewhere that you don't read the scripts on purpose, and the first time that you're exposed to the film is the rough cut and the edit.

Speaker 1 And when you're sitting there watching the movie, whether it be Star Wars, jurassic park jaws whatever it is indiana jones do you are you keep going craft i know it's just unbelievable are you crafting a melody in your head as you're watching it and then is that the melody that we actually end up hearing or how does that process work for you or is there temp in there yeah

Speaker 2 uh

Speaker 2 it is it's good if possible not to even read a script or see anything until the thing has been edited when we can form first impressions that will lead us in our work

Speaker 2 more effectively than almost anything else. You read a book, you cast it, you develop

Speaker 2 the atmospheres and so on, and you can be very disappointed if you see a director's impression of what that would be

Speaker 2 or delighted and surprised also.

Speaker 2 It's not always possible.

Speaker 2 We have to discuss certain things with the directors maybe before it's been finished. And your second question about maybe I can call it thematic inspiration, if you like,

Speaker 2 that is not something I just pick up immediately when I see the film. In my case, it's

Speaker 2 going back to the piano, working a theme or two or three,

Speaker 2 manipulating them

Speaker 2 into something that seems inevitable, like it's been there always. Yeah,

Speaker 2 and that's the hardest part of it, I think, of the work. The simplest thing is the hardest thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and is it true that when you did JAWS, E-F, E-F-E-F-E-F,

Speaker 1 that Spielberg thought you were kidding? Is that true?

Speaker 2 Is that true? Well, it is true.

Speaker 2 I wondered what to do about the shark.

Speaker 2 But he came in and I played boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. There was a D in the third note, if you remember.
All right, bum, bum, bum, bump, bump, bump.

Speaker 2 Right. And he looked at me and said, really? You think that could work?

Speaker 2 I thought maybe I had lost my mind.

Speaker 2 And I don't really remember the conversation, but it must have been something like, well, Stephen, I think when the cellos and basses in the orchestra would do it, it could be very ominous.

Speaker 2 And what is good about it is that it can be very slow. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
It can speed up as the shark is approaching or a red herring is approaching. Right, right.

Speaker 2 And the orchestra can join. It can be deafening if it needs to be.

Speaker 3 Yeah, the horns come in there and that's an alert, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 And we will be right back.

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Speaker 1 And now back to the show.

Speaker 2 You know, it's interesting, you say that when

Speaker 2 you sort of pitch that to Stephen, and then maybe he's a little reluctant or he thinks that you're kidding. Do you notice or have you noticed over the years,

Speaker 2 because it's such a collaborative experience working on a film and when you're working with a director, have you noticed that maybe they didn't start with, they didn't have such an appreciation of music in the same way that you do, and that they've learned, or have certain directors learned to become that that you've in fact educated them over the years and that their sense of their sophistication when it comes to approaching music has gotten much

Speaker 2 better

Speaker 2 sorry this is a poorly worded question but after working for years with stephen have you noticed that his ability to appreciate what you're doing has gotten more uh collaborative yeah and sophisticated and yeah it's a tough one because uh there's so much variation in in the training of these directors and the taste that they develop or don't develop and and

Speaker 2 their educations are all at a different level and from different angles and so on.

Speaker 2 If you talk about a bartock violin concerto or something, most of them will not know what that is.

Speaker 2 Most film directors will know, have some familiarity with film music. They will know Bernard Hermann and they will know Michaelas Roja and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2 But they won't know Liggetti or even less esoteric things than that. I don't know if you all remember Martin Ritt,

Speaker 2 a director, who was a theater director in New York, came out here, liked Kazan and

Speaker 2 did some wonderful films, was very suspicious of music in his film.

Speaker 2 He came from Broadway where we didn't have background music. or rarely had it.
And he wanted people to believe what they were seeing and what they were hearing was real.

Speaker 2 And so, what you have put a symphony orchestra behind this dialogue scene, and they say, Well, but a man like Martin Murray says,'I can't believe that. I don't need to have that.

Speaker 2 I've created the scene, my actors have done the job. You don't need to help them.'

Speaker 2 And that's the opposite of Stephen, who can't seem to quite get enough music in his film. So,

Speaker 2 different,

Speaker 2 good for me, by the way. Yeah, right, right, right.

Speaker 2 Good partner for me. Was he um

Speaker 2 go ahead, sorry?

Speaker 2 no,

Speaker 2 there's such variation there, but I think what

Speaker 2 people

Speaker 2 truly recognize is that it's true what Bernard Harmon said. There's no such thing as a silent film.

Speaker 2 We go back when the silence, we had the silence, we had an organ or we had an orchestra in the pit, we had somebody playing a violin, something that would animate. And music seems

Speaker 2 an inseparable part

Speaker 2 of filmmaking. And whether it's contemporary electronic music or classical romantic music,

Speaker 2 we recognize the need of it. Actors will be sometimes very unhappy when you play too much music for them.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Was the tonal shift

Speaker 3 and filmmaking shift that you both went through on Schindler's list, was that a comfortable transition for him into what was a much more pared down approach by design, I'm sure,

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 much more potentially, I don't know, sophisticated is the right word, but it was definitely a departure from what you guys had been doing for so long.

Speaker 3 Was that exciting to you guys or a little scary for him, maybe?

Speaker 2 You mean the

Speaker 2 resources and Schindler was chamber music? It was a smaller

Speaker 3 relentless single instruments at times as opposed to a more full-bodied orchestral.

Speaker 2 Some of the scenes were it's like Perlin alone. Some of the most breathtaking and horrible things was just these violin.

Speaker 2 Whether it was a conscious decision to make it a more intimate chamber music kind of thing

Speaker 2 was something we must have made either unconsciously or through dialogue.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I'm guessing something like da da da da da da da da da da da would work in similar sleep.

Speaker 2 I don't think it would work quite well.

Speaker 2 Right, right. So we stayed with this up Perlin.
A much better idea.

Speaker 3 You know, you mentioned earlier the magic of a live performance and what a shame it is that the audience can't truly enjoy that because they can't fully trust it because of the process of putting together a score.

Speaker 3 But one of the greatest cultural things I find in Los Angeles, of which there aren't many,

Speaker 3 I think everybody admits, is at the Hollywood Bowl, when they run a movie on the big screen

Speaker 3 and they pull all the music out and they have the LA Phil

Speaker 3 do it.

Speaker 3 And oftentimes, you'll conduct that.

Speaker 3 But so, for Tracy, like all the music you hear in, you know, take Jaws, for example. If you pulled all the music out of it and you just watched the movie with all the dialogue and sound effects,

Speaker 3 that's something. But the music is an enormous character in any John Williams film.
And so they just pull all that music out and then they play it live with the entire picture.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, the entire symphony

Speaker 3 or the entire orchestra. Do you like doing that? Do you, I mean, for me, it's it's magic because it is that live performance.

Speaker 3 You're seeing it done pristine, uh, matched to feel like it's a little bit different.

Speaker 1 It's like if you miss one.

Speaker 2 There's energy too, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's just, it's just stunning.

Speaker 2 I, I, I love it. I like doing it.
Yes, it is fun.

Speaker 2 Um, I also like not doing it.

Speaker 2 Mean

Speaker 2 I can play the score for

Speaker 2 for the audience in the theater or at the bowl

Speaker 2 without the film,

Speaker 2 without the distraction of the film.

Speaker 2 And I can describe to the audience

Speaker 2 they're about to hear the kind of virtuosity they're going to hear in action scenes and so on, where the music is extremely difficult to play.

Speaker 2 It's a virtuoso level, which when you watch the film, you can't appreciate it. It's just too much distraction.

Speaker 2 So I can take it very happily both ways, with music, with film or without it, wait, talk about uh things that are difficult to play.

Speaker 1 We might have to cut this, but I try to get the end credits music to ET, and you can't find it, it's not published anywhere. And so, my husband Scotty scoured the internet.
We finally got it.

Speaker 1 This is me playing the end, which is one of my favorite pieces, and it's so hard because you write very difficult music.

Speaker 2 It's crazy, it is difficult, yeah. It's it's insane, and it shows you that.

Speaker 2 really good. Sean, you know.

Speaker 2 It's a little fast.

Speaker 1 I think you wrote it slow.

Speaker 2 I think you wrote it slow.

Speaker 2 It isn't like that.

Speaker 2 But Sean, Sean, take the note. Okay?

Speaker 2 Take the note from John Williams.

Speaker 1 Now tell people the story of the last 15 minutes of E.T. because that's fascinating.
Just a moment ago, you said Stephen really loves a lot of music in his movies. Yes.

Speaker 1 So what happened in the last 15 minutes of E.T.?

Speaker 2 Well, you remember the last 15 minutes started with the bike chase. That's right.
The police chasing the kids, the kids trying to get ET back to a spaceship. And

Speaker 2 they accelerate to

Speaker 2 escape velocity, which I understand is 17,500 miles an hour.

Speaker 2 And we buy that, you know, and the kids fly over the moon. Right.

Speaker 2 I got that detail from NASA, by the way.

Speaker 2 How fast do you have to go on a bike to go over the moon?

Speaker 2 17,500

Speaker 2 That's hysterical.

Speaker 2 And they land and

Speaker 2 the spaceship lands and E.T. and his little friend's

Speaker 2 earthling children say goodbye to E.T. and it's very sentimental.

Speaker 2 And at the end of the sequence, the ship will go up and does a whirling left turn to the flourishes of trumpets at that moment and so on.

Speaker 2 And so in that 10 minutes, there's probably, in every minute of the 10, there are probably 10 sync points, okay?

Speaker 2 Maybe more. Somebody's foot, bicycle going up, something falling, whatever.

Speaker 2 Almost like a cartoon, but

Speaker 2 you don't want to hear it that way, but

Speaker 2 you want to support, at least in the style of this thing,

Speaker 2 this film. And so on the day of recording, I had the orchestra and we...

Speaker 2 rehearsed a piece and made a few takes and I could accomplish the first two minutes which we could have done separately and I had problems in four syncing.

Speaker 2 The orchestra

Speaker 2 wanted to bloom out or blossom out a little bit more than the film would allow me to do.

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 2 some

Speaker 2 concentrated action film that sped up and sped up and arrived here a little quicker than I wanted to get the orchestra to it. And I really couldn't get the sync the way it should be.

Speaker 2 And I finally said to Stephen,

Speaker 2 I can't seem to be able to get this right.

Speaker 2 He said, we'll turn the film off. We know where the sink points are.
The music is constructed for that end.

Speaker 2 And you record the music where all the rubati, you know, the phrasing and so on,

Speaker 2 is done for musical satisfaction, the revival, the breathing of the whole thing.

Speaker 3 And he offered to recut the film?

Speaker 2 And he said, I will just recut the film to the track,

Speaker 2 which is what he did.

Speaker 2 And I really believe that there's a kind of a, this is not a rabbi placing himself,

Speaker 2 there's something operatic about that last 10 minutes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That I think without that give and take breathing of the whole orchestra and the way they wanted to and the way the bows finish here but not here, this kind of

Speaker 2 kinetic, if you like, is more satisfactory, seems to be more satisfactory than a take that is slavishly in sync. Right.
Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I love that that demanded it, that that music demanded that the film be cut to it. I mean, it shows the power of the music.

Speaker 2 Has there ever been a film or a project that

Speaker 2 you've come into and you've thought, yeah, this is going to be great. And then you realize that you were intimidated by it or you thought you just gave an example of

Speaker 2 a difficult situation you were in. But was there ever something that you thought like, I don't know if I, I don't know if I have,

Speaker 2 I don't know if I can do this particular

Speaker 2 thing.

Speaker 3 I can match the power of what's on the

Speaker 3 with the right music.

Speaker 2 Have you ever been intimidated in that way?

Speaker 1 He's like, no, look at me.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Every film. Oh, really? Really? It's intimidating that way.

Speaker 2 I could say it glibly.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 to reduce it a little bit, I would say the Close Encounters was, I had that kind of feeling about it.

Speaker 2 Right absorbing. Somehow,

Speaker 2 something about that grammar.

Speaker 2 I think it was 1977. And and I had done first Star Wars and Close Encounters the same year.

Speaker 2 And it was talk about a head turn thing, you know, and I had really struggled to get out of Star Wars and into Close Encounters.

Speaker 2 Talk about spiritual aspects of, I mean, that whole end of that film took us to a place,

Speaker 2 a high place,

Speaker 2 and the orchestra had to

Speaker 2 it almost has a religious quality to it. Yeah,

Speaker 2 for sure. And

Speaker 2 where Star Wars is all fun and fanfares and action and comedy and all the rest of that. But this was

Speaker 2 a more serious thought

Speaker 2 about our circumstance in the universe, where we are, and where we may be going.

Speaker 3 It deeply affected me as a young boy. Me too.

Speaker 2 It was the first film that I, you know, I was young when it came out, but I saw it, and I've seen it so many times over the years. It's one of the only films that I will rewatch consistently.

Speaker 2 And it did have that say, it's funny you say that.

Speaker 1 That one and the first Teletubbies, right?

Speaker 2 And Teletummies, obviously.

Speaker 2 And also your score for the Gilligans Island pilot.

Speaker 2 People don't know that you wrote that. That's true, actually.
That's a true story, Dave.

Speaker 2 It's really hard.

Speaker 3 John,

Speaker 3 what portion of that

Speaker 3 iconic

Speaker 3 was scripted? And what portion of it was open to your autonomy? You know, it's sort of like,

Speaker 3 how was that described in the script? Where did the script stop and where did you pick up? And do you remember the moment that you came up with those notes?

Speaker 2 I think the script asked for five notes, I believe. And at my first sort of attempts at that, I kept saying to Stephen, it's much easier to do seven.

Speaker 2 But seven,

Speaker 2 five is like a doorbell. It's like a signal.
Whereas seven notes, you just get over that hump, and now you've got when you wish upon a star, if you like.

Speaker 2 I don't know how many notes that is in the phrase, but it becomes a melody rather than a signal.

Speaker 3 So in six and seven were those big, heavy bomb, bombs.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 No, no, four and five. Four and five.
Break the glass.

Speaker 2 One, two, three, four, five.

Speaker 3 And then there was.

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 2 that was a response. That was the response.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, that was such a good thing.
So then

Speaker 2 I took some paper. I still have the papers.
And I think I wrote about, I don't know, 100 or more five-note motifs in any intervolic relationship, up, down, so to speak,

Speaker 2 and no

Speaker 2 consideration of length of the notes. It isn't,

Speaker 2 it doesn't do that.

Speaker 2 I kept playing them for Stephen. He'd come over to my piano and we'd go through these things.
And we both kept circling this one without deciding.

Speaker 3 And finally, one day in frustration we weren't getting anywhere and he said or i said let's just use this one it seems fine yeah fine seems fine but it was but it was scripted that that the the the the strategy of the scientists were to communicate with the ship via five musical notes sound yeah so so that that must have been enormously um intimidating intimidating right because you're you're like it's not score it's actually language that they've written into into this script.

Speaker 3 And I got to come up with what the language is. That's true.

Speaker 2 Wow. That's true.
Well, there's a lot of the conversation that we now know back and forth between this computer, Truffaut and his group,

Speaker 2 and the ship's answers was much more elaborate with color and lights.

Speaker 2 Stephen eventually correctly cut it down a little bit so it was more manageable.

Speaker 2 But it's a wonderful idea. I mean, there are, like Kodai, who's a Hungarian composer with this idea of hand signals

Speaker 2 that's almost like deaf people would hear notes. And Skriabin, a Russian composer who

Speaker 2 was obsessed with the idea of color, and

Speaker 2 red is a certain kind of note or a certain texture and so on. So a lot of work had been done.
And, you know, not really very scientific work at all, but.

Speaker 3 It was so primary. It was like how you would maybe elect to communicate with a child that doesn't yet know language.

Speaker 3 That's what was so powerful and evergreen and universal about it.

Speaker 3 And then when the conversation gets going and they're getting into a conversation, I mean, John, that was just magic how you just made that all blossom and it just became like a celebration and they all, it got all carried away.

Speaker 3 It's just incredible.

Speaker 2 It was all written out. I have, it's all, and then put into a computer to produce it.
But John, it's true.

Speaker 2 Like what Jason says is, and again, I'm sort of going back and doubling down on this, but the idea that, Jay, that you and and sean too that that we as young men we were you know still single digits i was about eight when that seven or eight when i came out but i understood that yeah in a way that was meant to be understood in a way that my parents could under i could understand it emotionally what was what was going on leaving the theater with my mom in the parking lot i said to her i want to be taken you know and i was saying i was and i was i was serious she said we did too we wanted you to and they gave you back yeah right They wouldn't take you.

Speaker 2 You're a return. He told me that just last week.

Speaker 2 One thing I would say at this point is that

Speaker 2 it's probably true that music is older than language. And

Speaker 2 that's deeply embedded in all of our structure.

Speaker 2 And you understood it

Speaker 2 not linguistically, but musically or spiritually in some way. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 3 All right, back to the show.

Speaker 1 John, you know, all of your music, every single time, like we're talking, we see E.T.

Speaker 2 or Schindler's List or Raiders of the Lost Ark or whatever it is. Star Wars, Star Wars, Star Wars 4, 5, 6, Star Wars, 7, 8, 9.

Speaker 1 Evokes emotion, right?

Speaker 1 A very deep emotion. Is there a piece of music that you've written or another composer has written that to this day affects you emotionally every single time, like your music does to me and us?

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 2 that's so difficult.

Speaker 2 Beethoven 9th, Ode to Joy. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I start there, I guess.

Speaker 2 One thing I wanted to add about the five-note signal,

Speaker 2 which is an after-the-fact rationalization. But you have you have what is re do,

Speaker 2 do, soul, okay?

Speaker 2 That's the tonic note. Do again the tonic note down.
And soul.

Speaker 2 Soul in music, which is the fifth degree, is an equivalent in language to a conjunctive but or and.

Speaker 2 So if I say da da da bomb, that's not over with. Right, right.

Speaker 2 If I do da da da bomb, bomb, that's yeah, yeah. That's five, one.
That's

Speaker 3 so you're soliciting a response.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Would be the end, would be a period. What this does is

Speaker 2 maybe.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's really interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 3 You're asking for a response from the ship.

Speaker 2 It's what you remembered as a child somehow that you know it's not a sentence. It's part of a sentence.

Speaker 3 It's an ellipses, yeah.

Speaker 2 But it's not a complete sentence. I think once you realize that,

Speaker 2 there's great power in the fact that it doesn't settle.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 No, that makes a lot of sense. You can almost,

Speaker 3 it's a musical version of a hand being left out

Speaker 3 reaching for someone. Yeah, like, come back to me or grab this.

Speaker 3 Let's unite.

Speaker 2 It absolutely works, and you don't need to think about it.

Speaker 2 It does that for us.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that came across.

Speaker 1 John, I have a question from my husband, Scotty, who is a self-proclaimed expert on just about everything you've ever composed and or recorded.

Speaker 2 It's true.

Speaker 1 It's totally true.

Speaker 1 He says, this is from Scotty, there's been a long-standing rumor over many years that you played piano for the soundtrack recording sessions for the film version of Westside Story.

Speaker 2 Is that true? Yes.

Speaker 1 So that's you on the album playing piano.

Speaker 2 Yes. That's crazy.

Speaker 1 That is crazy. I played that in the pit pit a long time ago, and it's really, really hard.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it is, yeah.

Speaker 1 Like that, especially the prologue. It's just all over the place.

Speaker 2 Especially at a dinner theater, it was tough because you got mashed potatoes thrown at you. Wait, wait, John,

Speaker 2 it is true.

Speaker 2 I think a lot of Lenny's music was awkward, frankly. You played it, so you know

Speaker 2 why and how that is said.

Speaker 2 But it's a lot of part of the...

Speaker 2 animated energy that he left in his music.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, for sure. John, when you first started, first of all, you grew up in,

Speaker 1 tell me where you grew up again, Brooklyn or Queensland?

Speaker 2 Of Queens, Long Island. Queens, Queens, Queens.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 when you studied jazz as a kid, did you always know that, like, when did the love of film composing come in? Like, did you always want to do that?

Speaker 1 Or were you happy being a musician on Broadway and theaters and gigs?

Speaker 2 I never, frankly, planned to develop as a films composer all.

Speaker 2 My father was, one of the things that he did in his professional life as a musician was to play in Hollywood studio orchestras.

Speaker 2 And so, as a teenager, and I was a serious piano student, I really wanted to be a concert pianist.

Speaker 2 He took me to recording sessions there in the studio, and I became fascinated by what people were doing to score the films, how it was orchestrated, written, and so on. Wow.

Speaker 2 And eventually,

Speaker 2 my job was playing piano in those orchestras. You mentioned that I played in West Hedster.
I also played way back

Speaker 2 some like a Tot. Do you remember that?

Speaker 1 Yeah. That was you playing in the movie?

Speaker 2 Yes, I played on that. And The Apartment.
Do you remember The Apartment? Yes, sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Promises, Promises is based on The Apartment.

Speaker 2 And Fred Astaire and Audrey Hepburn in

Speaker 2 Funny Face.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 my introduction to writing for film was through the influence of older colleagues for whom I played the piano. And they said, can you orchestrate?

Speaker 2 And I said, yes, well, here's a piece for next Tuesday. Orchestrate this for me, which I did.

Speaker 2 And then just at that point in my development, television became very, very popular.

Speaker 2 And I did a lot of television, Alcoa Theater and Chrysler Theater, all those things.

Speaker 1 And as Will said, Gilligan's Island.

Speaker 2 It's crazy that you wrote music for that.

Speaker 2 Were you happy to move away from television again, or did you like that project? It must be such a faster process, of course, time-wise, but it was a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 It was such a slow, unplanned process, I must say. Really,

Speaker 2 moving from television to feature films.

Speaker 2 I think at that time in my life...

Speaker 2 It was wonderful because I had so much more time to work on the feature film.

Speaker 2 Television show, if you did Alcoa Theater, for example, it was an hour show, which you would have to write it within a week, 25 minutes of music or so, orchestrate it and conduct it.

Speaker 2 And so that was hard.

Speaker 2 To do a feature film may have 25 or 30 minutes of music, but you have six weeks to do it

Speaker 2 and a higher fee and a better orchestra and so forth. So it was a gradual step up that was evolutionary rather than anything planned.

Speaker 1 And is it true you can play six instruments?

Speaker 1 I read piano, bassoon, clarinet, cello, trombone, and trumpet. Is that right?

Speaker 2 It's incorrect on all counts. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you. I tried to play all of them.

Speaker 2 I spent time with piano, of course.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 One of the things I love so much about listening to classical music is that it

Speaker 3 is the closest thing we have to a time machine because reading that music, playing that music note for note verbatim is exactly how they heard it, save the conductor adjusting time or pacing or whatever, is exactly what they heard 200, 300, 400, 500 years ago.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 that was their, those were their rock concerts.

Speaker 3 And so when you're sitting there, you're listening to one of these orchestras play one of these pieces of music,

Speaker 3 it's as close to the exact experience people in the past had in anything we can do, I think.

Speaker 2 It's a very unifying thing. Yeah.

Speaker 2 One of the things that draws our humanity conceals it. I think what you say about listening presents something very hopeful, I think, about music.
We've mentioned before that it's not language.

Speaker 2 It's something general.

Speaker 2 It may be in the end that Bernstein was right, that it is international. It goes beyond language.

Speaker 2 We were talking about the divisions of the Oxford and fifth, and the fifth being the conjunctive.

Speaker 2 It's something that I think we have.

Speaker 2 place a little hope in,

Speaker 2 that it's something we all may share at an intellectual level that isn't particularly linguistic.

Speaker 2 Is there a piece of music that you that you've written?

Speaker 2 And now I'm going to get into the sort of the regrets.

Speaker 2 Do you have something that you've listened to and you go, I wish I had just done it like this? Like that you've you've driven home from recording,

Speaker 2 you know, you've just scored

Speaker 2 a thing that we all are really familiar with. But when you were driving home, you thought, I wish I had done it a little bit differently.
Do you have any reason?

Speaker 1 Because as actors, we do that all the time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we do it all the time. I wish I had done this scene.
Oh, you know, sometimes you drive home and you get into your driver and you go, oh, that's what the scene was

Speaker 2 up on the screen.

Speaker 2 We all do it. We all do that.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 Wish that could be better or

Speaker 2 a change of note or phrase or whatever timing.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Do you know, John, we didn't even

Speaker 1 touch on your time in the military, the U.S.

Speaker 3 Air Force. Nor have we touched on golf.

Speaker 2 Our golf. Yes.

Speaker 1 But really quick, so many of your themes, especially Raiders and Superman and, you know, the Darth Vader theme, they're all very militaristic.

Speaker 1 They're very march, they feel like they... Is that inspired by your time in the military, or is that just what was required for the film?

Speaker 2 I think probably the latter, what was required

Speaker 2 at the moment.

Speaker 2 Although one of the things that I did have a wonderful opportunity in service to

Speaker 2 orchestrate for military band because

Speaker 2 there were not a lot of publications for that instrumental combination available beyond Sousa and a few other

Speaker 2 earlier lights.

Speaker 3 Were they any good, those bands?

Speaker 2 Oh, yes. Well, presently

Speaker 2 our military bands, Marines and Army in Washington, are superb. Superb.

Speaker 2 The Marine band in Washington has a brass section that is equivalent to the Chicago Symphony. I mean, it's not an exaggeration to say.
Wow, wow. That's absolutely fantastic.

Speaker 2 Our principal trumpet, Tom Tom Hooten, in LA Philharmonic,

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 a former Marine trumpeter. He did, I don't know, two or three years in the Marine band there and then came here and auditioned in one Los Angeles Philharmonic.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 it's been a big tradition in our country, the band-to-band tradition.

Speaker 3 Tell me about this

Speaker 3 wonderful routine you have at

Speaker 2 our,

Speaker 3 where Will and I are also at the same golf course that you play at. And we will see you almost every day about four or five o'clock.

Speaker 3 You'll take the cart down to the bottom of the hill in the first hole.

Speaker 2 That's a huge hole.

Speaker 3 You'll park it, and then you will walk the rest of the hole, play your ball out.

Speaker 3 Do you go onto the second hole, or is that enough? And is it just a sort of a meditative, wonderful routine?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 we're not stalking you, but we have seen you. Oh, it's always such a thrill.

Speaker 3 Everybody always stops and says, hey, look, there he is.

Speaker 2 I've been going up there for, I don't know, close to 50 years. You would never know it by the way I play.

Speaker 2 I never did play well. It's gotten worse over the years.
You work too hard. But I sit all day at the piano

Speaker 2 from early in the morning, learn to keep working.

Speaker 2 To keep this old bag of bones moving, I have to walk. And I'm living very close to the course.

Speaker 2 So I can go up there and walk for an hour. I try to walk for an hour.
So that could be holes one, two, two, three, and four or one, two, six, and seven, depending on the traffic and so on.

Speaker 2 That's good.

Speaker 2 And I get a cart so that I can stay out of the way of people like you guys who can really play.

Speaker 3 Well, and that first hill is kind of a bear. But

Speaker 3 you're always alone.

Speaker 3 which I love because I'm a bit of an alone guy myself.

Speaker 3 Is that on purpose or is that just because you don't want to schedule it on anybody else?

Speaker 2 It's very relaxing. You don't have to entertain anybody or be entertained.
I can mull and meditate, things flashing through my mind.

Speaker 2 But you got to know that we play with Jason plays with people all the time and he never entertains them. So, I mean, that's very

Speaker 2 possible.

Speaker 2 Also,

Speaker 2 any golf course, such a piece of beautiful work, particularly when there's nobody on it.

Speaker 2 You can see the contours of this glorious green. It's a great park.

Speaker 2 It's a beautiful invention.

Speaker 2 Greatest possible luxury in a crowded urban area.

Speaker 2 It's incredible. I've gotten quite, I've been doing it too, Jay.
I think I told you this JB.

Speaker 2 I'll go sometimes on a Sunday afternoon by myself and then just strap my bag on and just walk by myself and play nine holes at sort of three, four o'clock. Fabulous.
It's my favorite.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's my favorite thing to do. Yeah.
It's just so good. Great recreation.

Speaker 3 Next time we see you out there, fair warning,

Speaker 3 I'm going to run up and give you a handshake, a hug, or a tip of the cap or something.

Speaker 2 Great. I love it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 All right.

Speaker 1 John, thank you for being here today.

Speaker 1 You know, what if this is like one of my

Speaker 1 massive inspiration to me as a pianist, as a wannabe composer in my early 20s to everything you've ever done. And, you know,

Speaker 1 I always say I want to retire when I'm 60. And then I start looking at your resume and I get a second wind.

Speaker 2 Because I'm just like, it's just unbelievable.

Speaker 3 All the incredible work we wouldn't have had he stopped at 60.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It should be noted, John, and Sean might not say this because

Speaker 2 he's embarrassed, but there have been, in the 20-plus years that I've been friends with Sean,

Speaker 2 there have been too many times to remember the times that he's referenced, mentioned you, referenced your music, referenced what you've done.

Speaker 2 It's absolutely incredible, and I know it's such a thrill for him that you're here and for us as well.

Speaker 3 I guarantee you he's 10 seconds away from tears.

Speaker 2 Yes, truly.

Speaker 2 You've had a real impact on this young man's life.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you have to. And mine as well.

Speaker 3 You have created my love of classical music because of what

Speaker 2 you've done

Speaker 2 before.

Speaker 3 That was my entry point to it, was just being such an incredible fan of movies and focusing on the music and what that does and then discovering classical music. And I listen to it all day, every day.

Speaker 1 There'll never be another one like you, ever, ever, ever.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Jess, so much for this. I've enjoyed it, all three of you.
Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. Don't even possibly think of 60 as an age to retire.
No, no, I'm just throwing it out there.

Speaker 2 That's a teenager.

Speaker 2 No, thank you, John. You guys have got years and years of productive work from your lips.
Erring everybody. You do.
Absolutely do. Enjoy.
It's there. You have it.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much, guys. Great to bring you up.
Thank you, John. Love you to pieces.

Speaker 2 What a thrill. Thank you.
Bye.

Speaker 2 That's how appropriate was that remark? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so listener, right as we were signing off, he said to his assistant, he said, huh?

Speaker 2 So that was a pod. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So he's now been

Speaker 3 had an experience.

Speaker 2 Legendary, yeah. What a nice experience.
He's just a legend.

Speaker 3 I'm really taken with that interview.

Speaker 2 I could have asked a whole lot.

Speaker 3 I know.

Speaker 1 You know, like, do you know that Steven Spielberg played clarinet on Jaws, but he played it so bad bad that they put the sound into the local marching band because Steven wasn't, it wasn't great.

Speaker 1 So it's actually Steven playing, but and it's some kid faking it in the movie. So funny.
And then Stephen played clarinet in 1941, the movie 1941. Is that the movie? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Anyway, and his son was the lead singer of Toto.

Speaker 2 Like, we didn't even get to that. Who?

Speaker 3 His son. John Williams' son is the lead singer in Toto?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Wait, what? Yeah.
Swear to God. Why didn't you bring that that Joseph?

Speaker 2 I got 80 million questions. I want to ask you guys.
I did, but I didn't want to fucking wait.

Speaker 1 We didn't get into his family.

Speaker 2 So I added it to 80 million questions.

Speaker 1 And I wanted it to make it about him and, you know, but I guess that is about him. That's his son.

Speaker 2 But he's cool. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, you're right.

Speaker 3 He kind of got the Eye of the Tiger.

Speaker 2 I guess he's done.

Speaker 2 That's not Toto. Is it? Eye of the Tiger.
No. Toto's in Africa.

Speaker 3 Well, who did Eye of the Tiger?

Speaker 2 Survivor. Survivor, yeah.
Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Guys, I've got to go, go, but

Speaker 3 I don't think he ever, in Jaws, I don't think he ever scored the moment when Jaws actually took a bite out of anybody, did he?

Speaker 2 Wow, you really have to go. I really do really go.
I love you.

Speaker 3 And we'll see.

Speaker 2 And I should

Speaker 2 be smartless. Nobody wanted to say anything about my restraint.
I had so many bits in there when you talked about the Marines and their horn section. I was going to say, Sean, Sean, you blew a Marine.

Speaker 2 I mean, and I never said that. Listen, please go to Smartlist Extras for all of Will's bits from this week.

Speaker 2 Smart

Speaker 2 into, and you can only find an organ in a church. All that

Speaker 2 none of it. I didn't say any of it.

Speaker 3 Good for you.

Speaker 3 Love to love.

Speaker 2 Love. Goodbye.
Bye, goodbye.

Speaker 2 Smart.

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Speaker 2 It was me at the store with my mouth. Motive? Um, there Reese's.
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