Lucy Dacus - Thumbs

You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishikesh, Hirway.

So I just wanted to say a couple words about how this show works. Song Exploder is part of Radiotopia, which is a group of independent podcasts.

And if you look around these days, independence is becoming more and more rare.

Everything from record labels to movies to newspapers, everything is getting consolidated and controlled by a small number of corporations.

To me, one of the tragedies of this means you get less original, weird, unexpected, and creative stuff out in the world.

And this podcast is all about celebrating the surprising ways that creativity gets manifested. That's really interesting to me, the way that actual people turn their experiences into art.

And if you're listening to this, I hope that means it's interesting to you too. But in order to maintain this show and that philosophy, it takes a lot of hustling to keep things going.

This spiel is part of the hustle, and I hope you'll forgive me for it. But Song Exploder and all the shows at Radiotopia need the support of listeners like you.

It's the annual Radiotopia fundraiser right now and we're looking for 1,500 new donors who believe in unique independent media and the messiness of creativity and more importantly just love listening.

If that's you, please consider making a tax-deductible donation at songexploder.net slash donate. That's songexploder.net slash donate.
Thank you so much for making the show possible.

This episode is presented by the new podcast about the great Felakuti. It's called Felakuti Fear No Man.
It's the true story of one of the great political awakenings in music.

Felakuti was a classically trained Nigerian musician who made songs of protest against government corruption. And in doing so, he created a whole new genre called Afrobeat.

This show is the first project from podcast legend Jad Abimrad, and it features interviews with Felakuti's family, David Byrne, and President Obama.

Check out Felakuti Fear No Man, on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.

Song Exploder is sponsored by Sonos.

If you're looking for ideas for a holiday gift, you kind of can't go wrong with Sonos, because in addition to the whole connected speaker system that you can get with them, they also make fantastic headphones, which I gave to my brother-in-law as a gift one year.

Or you could get someone the Rome 2, which is their little portable speaker. I pack that in my carry-on whenever I'm traveling.

And right now, Sonos is offering up to 30% off during their Black Friday event. Don't miss out.
Shop now through December 1st, 2025 at sonos.com.

Lucy Dacas has a new album coming out on March 28th called Forever is a Feeling. So before it comes out, I thought it could be nice to revisit her Song Exploder episode from 2021.

It's about the beautiful and brutally heartbreaking song Thumbs, which I love. Since recording that episode, Lucy's won three Grammy Awards as part of her band Boy Genius, including Album of the Year.

But back in 2021, I had a really nice afternoon talking to Lucy. She was the first guest to come over and record with me in person after COVID hit.
So I have a lot of fond memories about this one.

And I hope you'll enjoy listening or re-listening to it with me.

Before this episode starts, I want to give a content warning. There's some explicit language, but more crucially, the subject matter could be upsetting to some listeners.

There's an explicit description of a pretty violent act in the song, and there's some not explicit, but implied behavior of a parent mistreating their child.

So please be mindful of that and take care before going ahead.

Lucy Dakis is a singer and songwriter from Richmond, Virginia. She put out her first album in 2016 and in 2018 she formed the band Boy Genius with Julian Baker and Phoebe Bridgers.

In June 2021, she released her third album, Home Video, which includes this song, Thumbs. The first time I heard it, I knew I wanted to ask Lucy about how and why she made it.

So after some COVID testing, we spoke in person here in Los Angeles, and she told me the story of how thumbs took months and months to get right.

I'm Lucy Dakis.

The day that I wrote Thumbs was in 2018, but the event that the song is about happened like five years before.

I was 19 and I had a friend who was crying because she had just been on the phone and she told me that her dad was in town and she hadn't seen him for a really long time.

And I knew that he was a bad dude. And I just told her, like, I'm coming with you.
You absolutely don't have to do this alone

we met him at a diner-ish place

and I just immediately hated him and I was like raised to just not hate you know like love everyone

and I still try to access that love especially when I feel hate coming on but this was the first time that it just really won out I wanted to say to him the things that I wish she would and I didn't but all the silences I tried to fill with,

like, yeah, you know, she's doing amazing. And he like kept trying to take credit and be like, I'm proud of you.
Like, I tried to imply, like, has nothing to do with you.

Like, how could he be proud if he wasn't there? Everything that she is is like from herself.

I am proud of her and I respect her so much for those things because I've like had the privilege of watching her.

Yeah.

Fuck that guy.

I started writing my own songs probably when I was like 15 and just kept them to myself or showed them to like a couple of friends.

But I had a lot of friends in Richmond just peer pressure me into doing shows. They'd be like, we need an opener.
We know you write songs. Just show up.

And so when this happened, I was already playing shows, but I never thought about writing about this. I didn't even journal about it, which is odd for me.

It's hard to say if I was actively ignoring the story, but I wasn't thinking about it. Over time, I have recognized how powerful my dissociative powers are.

My brain will simply not show me what I'm not ready to see.

And I think this was one of those things where just suddenly for some reason, the timer went off like, dang, it took five years, but now the thought is fully baked. And here it is out of the oven.

The day that I wrote thumbs was in Nashville when I was like out there recording some random stuff.

And everyone that I work with wanted to go get Thai food. Jacob Lizard, who is my guitarist, and Colin Pastor, who is our co-producer.
The three of us have made everything that I've ever made.

And in the car, I had this little notebook that I carry around,

and I just started writing from the top.

I always write melody and words at the same time. I feel like melody is sort of like a highlighter where, like, pitch accentuates meaning.

Like, the words are the words, but they're balanced by the emotion that you put into the performance.

So, we meet him at a bar.

You were holding my hand hard.

He ordered rum and coke.

I can't drink either anymore.

He hadn't seen you since the fifth grade. Now you're 19 and you're 5'8.

he said honey you sure look great do you get the checks I send on your birthday

I wrote the whole song on the 15 minute car ride and After I was done I felt like literally ill we like got to the restaurant and I was like you go ahead and they got a table and I just like opened the car door and like kind of leaned on my legs and like felt like I was gonna throw up and just cried a little bit.

I would kill him

if you let me.

I would

kill him

quick and easy.

Your nails are digging

into my knee.

I don't know how

you keep

smiling.

Yeah, Yeah, I haven't had a feeling like that before or since.

I was so nervous the first time I played thumbs. I was on tour with Boy Genius.
That's my band with Phoebe Bridgers and Julian Baker. And we love to show each other songs in progress.

So we were doing like a song share backstage and I started playing it. Phoebe actually was like, you have to play this tonight.
So I played it at the show.

I knew that I needed like practice playing it since writing it made me feel sick. And I knew I needed to play it before I recorded it.

I was really grateful for all the shows that I played this at because I would ask people not to record it. It actually created a bond, the fact that people respected that.

But yeah, there were some nights that I cried or some nights that my throat closed up and I just had to like gulp and start again.

But it's like, yeah, just mutual trust that I actually hadn't felt at shows before.

But it felt so awesome.

So I'd been playing the song for a while and then

asked my friend to my house so I could show it to her because I wanted to ask permission to put it on the album. If she had told me you can't record this, I wouldn't have.

I

broke down playing it for her. I like kind of forgot to play the right chords.
And by the end of it, I was just like this naughty-nosed, ugly crying little sap.

And I mean, she said the thing that has made it possible to put it out, where she was like, this is not a sad song. This is about our friendship.
And it just makes me realize

that

I'm so glad you were the one there.

I clear my throat and say we ought to get home.

He offers us a ride.

I reply, no, that's alright.

And when we leave,

you feel him watching.

So we walk a mile in the wrong direction.

When I first showed Jacob thumbs, he just said sing it and play guitar and I'll do electronic drums and kind of like work out an arrangement.

So we meet him at a bar.

You were holding my hand hard.

And I actually just like hated it, even though it's not that bad.

I would

kill him

if you heard me.

I just knew it couldn't be that big.

I was listening to it and drafting my email as I was listening to it, like this ain't it.

But that's okay. That's most of recording saying this ain't it.
And so, this demo that you hear was never supposed to be heard by anybody, but uh,

such is the nature of this podcast.

Your nails are digging

into my lips.

So then when we went into the studio to record it, I was like, this is the one that's going to be the easiest because I'm just going to play guitar and sing it. And it'll be like the shows.

And the first night that we tried that, we thought we got it, like take two.

I love your eyes.

And he has them.

Or you have his.

Cause he was

first.

And Colin came into the tracking room and just like hugged me and cried like snotty cry, which is not something that he and I have done much.

I record at Tracehorse Studio in Nashville, which is owned by Preston Cochrane and Scotty Prudeau, or they run it, and they were my high school band.

So everyone there is like people I've known since we were all teenagers. And we were saying,

We've known each other for so long, and who would have thought we'd be tracking like this?

Everyone was just saying, like, more emotional stuff than we usually say.

And then the next day, we listened back to it, and it just wasn't good.

Like, the emotion was there, but the recording was bad. And we were like, oh, I guess we should just try again.
So we tried with an acoustic. We tried with me not playing guitar.

We tried a full band version for a second.

And nothing felt right. And so like we finished the whole record, but thumbs wasn't done.

More with Lucy Dakis after this.

Song Exploder is sponsored by Function during this holiday season, and the holidays are great, but they can take a lot out of you.

My schedule has been pretty crazy trying to meet all my deadlines before having to travel. So maybe like me, you're just white-knuckling your way through it, but it's taking a toll on your body.

Well, Functions tests can help you see how stress affects key health markers inside your body.

For me, I need to keep an eye on my cortisol, which keeps you alert, but can also make you too wired to fall asleep. And lack of sleep is where most of my health issues come from.

So this is an important biomarker. And the insights that you get from Function can help you reset and then feel present in this holiday season.
So learn more and join using the Song Exploder link.

Function is the new essential health check, and the first thousand Song Exploder listeners to sign up get $100 credit towards their membership.

Visit functionhealth.com slash song exploder or use the gift code songexploder100 at signup to own your health.

Thanks to 365 by Whole Foods Market for supporting Song Exploder. One of the things I love most about the holiday season is that it's also potluck season.

You get to eat so many delicious things, and often you only have to bring one of them.

So Whole Foods has you covered whether you're making something or you're picking something up from their prepared foods department.

Personally, I think anyone who brings a pie to a party is a hero, and that includes a pie that you bought in the Whole Foods bakery.

So shop for everything you need at Whole Foods Market, your holiday headquarters.

Thanks again to Sonos for sponsoring Song Exploder. With Sonos, you can create a customizable sound system for your whole home.

I started with a set of speakers in my bedroom that I configured as a left and right stereo pair.

And when I wake up in the morning and I want to listen to music before I even get out of bed, I play it through those Sonos speakers.

And then if I want to just keep listening, I can link those speakers to the Aero 100 speaker that I have in my kitchen. They connect simply and wirelessly through the Sonos app.

And then over the years, I started to build up the Sonos system in my house, adding pieces here and there.

And so now I have a soundbar in the living room that's connected to my TV, but I don't have to listen to the TV through it.

I can also stream whatever song I was listening to when I first woke up that morning in my living room as well. The whole house gets filled with music and it sounds amazing.

And right now, Sonos is offering up to 30% off during their Black Friday event. Don't miss out.
Shop now through December 1st, 2025 at sonos.com.

I went back January of 2020 and I said, like, I wish I could just sing this a cappella

and not have it be weird.

And so I just sang it and then added things underneath that. I wanted it to be as close to not existing as possible.
Like, I wanted it to feel like a cappella plus, essentially.

And And so the version that's on the record is only the vocal.

I clear my throat and say we ought to get home.

He offers us a ride.

I reply, I know that's alright.

And a pad

that is like the most boring pad. I was like, I want this pad to have zero personality.

And then a bass synth.

The bass synth moments are just when

I feel it in my gut. That is when the bass needs to be in because it's like I feel bassy in my body.

So we walk a mile in the wrong direction.

And then the wind sound is like when I feel like kind of crazed or erratic.

I don't know how you keep smiling.

I don't know how you keep smiling.

I

don't know how you keep smiling.

It's a little brutal because you just have to interact with the story and you don't really get an out.

There isn't some opening up of the arrangement. It's kind of like front-to-back a story.

And I kind of hear it more as a story than as a song.

But also I lived it, so maybe I'm biased.

I love your eyes.

And he has

them.

Or you have his.

Cause he was

first.

I imagine my thumbs on the irises

pressing in

until they burst.

I remember showing it to my drummer Ricardo, and I remember saying to Ricardo for the first time, like, I think I'm going to call it thumbs.

And he like jumped out of his chair and he was like, That is brutal. That is so much.

And I think everyone in my life was really surprised, like, as was I, because it's really violent. It's unlike me.

What does it say about me that I came up with this image? I don't know. I think I'd like to believe that what you make comes from you, but isn't solely defining you all the time.

You two are connected by a pure coincidence,

Bound to him by blood, but baby, it's all relative.

You've been in his fist ever since you were a kid.

But you don't owe him shit,

even if he said

you did.

The last bit of the song that kind of like sums up what I wish for my friend. I like wrote it down the like you don't owe him shit line and you know I say it twice in the song.

I wrote it down twice and the first time felt like it was for her

and then the second time felt like it was for me.

I am adopted and my birth father is

a little obsessive.

Basically, I also needed to hear that I don't owe him shit, which I didn't know I believed until I said it out loud.

My mom is actually adopted as well. And so the idea of like chosen family has been a part of my life my whole life.
So blood ties have never really made sense to me.

And I think that they are used as a tool for manipulation. Like you owe me this because I

gave birth to you.

So yeah, I think that you don't owe

your family.

I think that it can be beautiful to feel like you want to enrich

the people who have loved you with your own love. Like, that is

at the core, like, a very human and wonderful exchange. But, yeah,

family, blood,

it's not as important

as I think people make it out to be.

You don't owe him shit, even if he said you

did.

I think up until this point, I've been protecting myself from the task of having to play things that feel bad.

And I've watched friends write super vulnerable and painful music, and then they have to play it every night. Like, I've been afraid to do that.
And I think I have resisted going into certain depths.

But this record, I just did it anyways. And I'm already starting to see, like, oh yeah, that fear was legitimate.

And I have to remind myself that, like, if it's a night where I can't handle it, I don't have to play it. And I want to believe that anybody that really cares about me would understand that.

And I hope that it is. therapeutic and I hope that it can provide a sense of solace.
And I'm sorry that it does. I wish less people could relate to this song, Honestly.

And now, here's Thumbs by Lucy Dakis in its entirety.

You hung up the phone, and I asked you what was wrong.

Your dad has come to town,

he'd like to meet.

I said you don't have to see him

But for whatever reason you can't tell him no

So we meet him at a bar

You were holding my hand hard

He ordered rum and coke

I can't drink either anymore

He hadn't seen you since the fifth grade. Now you're 19 and you're 5'8.

He said, Honey, you sure look great.

Do you get the checks I send on your birthday?

I would

kill him

if you let me.

I would

kill him

quick and easy

Your nails are digging

into my knee

I don't know how you keep smiling

I love your eyes

And he has

them

or you have his

Cause he was

first.

I imagine my thumbs on the irises

pressing in

until they burst.

I clear my throat and say we ought to get home.

He offers us a ride.

I reply, no, that's alright.

And when we leave,

you feel him watching.

So we walk a mile in the wrong direction.

I would

kill him

if you let me.

I would

kill him

quick and easy.

Your nails are digging

into my knee.

I don't know how

you keep

smiling.

I don't know how you keep

smiling.

I don't know how you keep smiling

I wanna take

your face between my hands

and say

You two are connected by a pure coincidence

Bound to him by blood, but baby, it's all relative

You've been in his fist ever since you were a kid.

But you don't owe him shit,

even if he said you did.

You don't owe him shit,

even if he said you

did.

To learn more, visit songexploder.net, where you'll find links to buy or stream thumbs.

This episode was made by me, with editing help from Craig Ely and Casey Deal, artwork by Carlos Lerma, music clearance by Kathleen Smith, and production assistance from Chloe Parker.

Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm.

You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at Rishi Hirway, and you can follow the show at Song Exploder. You can also get a Song Exploder t-shirt at songexploder.net/slash shirt.

I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway. Thanks for listening.

Radio Tokyo

from PRX.

This episode was made possible in part by Sonos. This is a great time to start a Sonos system, or maybe expand the one that you've already got.

Check out the whole lineup of Sonos speakers, soundbars, and more at sonos.com and discover how easy it is to bring every room to life with incredible sound.