Key Change: Sophie Thatcher on Elliott Smith

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I love talking to musicians about how they made their songs for Song Exploder, but I also just love talking about music in general with people people who are passionate about it, just as fans.

And I'm really fascinated by how much power there is in music to change your life.

Just a chance encounter with a song that really hits you, it can really transform the way you think.

Not just about music, but the way you see the world or see yourself.

It's happened to me multiple times.

And so I wanted to start a new conversation series where I could explore how that's happened for other people.

In addition to regular Song Exploder episodes, I'm excited to introduce a new monthly series on the podcast called Key Change, where I talk with fascinating people about the music that's transformative.

For this first episode, my guest is Sophie Thatcher, an actor and musician whose credits include starring in the TV show Yellow Jackets, the film Heretic, and the new movie Companion.

I met Sophie through Companion because I composed the score to the film.

And one of the pieces that I wrote is called Iris's Theme, based on the character that Sophie plays in the movie.

And after I wrote that piece, I found out that Sophie is a musician and singer herself, so I asked her to record the vocals for the track.

It sounds like this.

So I got to know Sophie a little bit through that, and we started trading music with each other, some of our own music and music that we're just fans of.

And I asked her if there was a piece of music that she felt had changed her, that had transformed her in some fundamental way.

And she said the song Waltz Number One by Elliot Smith.

And if you haven't heard that song before, there's a link to it in the show notes.

Elliot Smith's music has meant a lot to me too, so I was really happy to have this conversation with Sophie.

I'm Sophie Thatcher.

I'm an actor and a musician.

Sophie, when I asked you this question about what music had changed your life, I feel like you knew right away that the answer was going to be Elliot Smith.

So how did you first encounter his music?

It was through my twin sister.

She was doing an improv class and she had improvised a character that was really sad.

And she asked our older brother, like the saddest musician he could think of.

And he showed us Elliot Smith.

Do you remember what he played you?

Yeah.

But Ballad of Big Nothing was the first song I heard.

And it was just this moment.

We were like trapped in our basement, played it over and over again.

And I didn't even really know what I was feeling.

I just knew that the song went exactly where I wanted it to go.

And I'd never felt that about a song before.

And then I heard waltz number one.

And that was the song that kind of changed me.

And I had my first like really visceral reaction to a song that I could remember.

I think I was 12 at that time.

Where did you grow up?

Well, I grew up in Hyde Park, Chicago.

And then we left because my brother was getting bullied.

So we went to Lake Forest, which is a very suburban movie, a lot of John Hughes movies are set around there.

Very Republican, very preppy.

So I definitely grew up feeling a little outcast.

Having a twin, I feel like immediately outcasts you.

Yeah.

So you have a twin sister and an older brother?

An older brother and an older sister.

Everything was kind of from my brother.

I just thought he was the coolest guy.

So I would always steal his iPod and listen to his music.

And any recommendation that he gave to me, I took really seriously.

When do you think you started becoming like a serious music fan?

I can't even pinpoint it because I just have these very blurry memories of forcing my dad to drive around the block over and over again to listen to songs.

And it was always a specific point in the song that I knew I would feel something.

And if I didn't feel it, I would make him go back and replay it, which I still do, of course.

Yeah.

And I would just make him, yeah, drive around for like a good hour.

Why in the car?

Why couldn't you listen at home?

Something about driving around, which is funny.

I don't drive, but I still make my boyfriend do that.

And it's kind of great being passenger princess, controlling the music, not having to focus on driving and just listening and looking out the window.

And the first time I heard waltz number one was looking out the window.

And I find my best ideas come when I'm in a car looking out the window or when I'm in a plane looking out the plane window.

I love passenger princess.

I've never heard that, but I'm definitely going to be calling myself that from now on because I, my wife gets car sick.

So she's always the one who drives.

Oh, really?

Always the passenger controlling the music.

So thank you for passing me.

Yeah, I know there's a power to it.

Yeah.

Were your parents super into music?

Yeah, my mother played organ in the church choir.

And my dad was really obsessed with Radiohead, Smashing Pumpkins, a lot of just 90s stuff.

I think my first band that I was obsessed with was Radiohead, but it wasn't the same kind of personal connection that I had with Elliot.

And Elliot almost felt like I hadn't found it on my own, but I sought out his albums on my own where all of Radiohead was like, he was schooling it to me.

He was explaining it to me.

Yeah.

Man's planning it.

Dad's planning.

Dad's planning.

Did you do that with all of you, with you and all of your siblings?

Did your dad kind of have that relationship very quickly?

Well, me and Ellie grew up very musical.

Ellie's your twin.

Ellie's my twin.

Did you and your sister generally have the same taste in music?

It's interesting because it's really changed.

She's far more electronic, down-tempo, a lot less organic instruments.

And I find myself still obsessed with Elliot.

We still both are like,

I have an ES tattoo, Elliot Smith, Ellie Sophie, both.

And both are just as important.

Not saying that Elliot Smith is as important as my twin, but it did for a while feel like that, where he was like my my best friend in my head.

I just remember asking Ellie to replay Ballad of Big Nothing, looking at the lyric video, not understanding at all what the lyrics meant.

And then later diving into it, I ended up like going to Barnes ⁇ Noble

and I stole the Kierkegaard either or book and tried reading it, still not understanding it.

I was like 14, really trying to challenge myself just so I could get closer to his, his headspace.

But that was the first song that I had heard.

Waltz number one was a song that I'd found by myself.

And I think because I found it by myself, it felt closer to me.

And I think it really started my taste.

My older sister likes to call my taste broken carousel music, which is my music sounds like that.

And everything that I show her is just like a little bit broken.

Yeah.

And because it's a waltz and just because it has this haunting sound to it, he talks about, you know, the repetition of life.

And I didn't understand that at the moment, but it was one of the first times I was listening to a song and it felt like I had flashes of a movie and flashes of my life to come.

I remember looking out the window and that's when I'm able to visualize something really strongly when I'm looking at a window.

And I have that distraction.

And that's when I find myself most creative.

And me and Ellie were making a lot of movies at at the time, just like homemade movies.

And I was just thinking of the most devastating plots listening to Waltz Number One.

And yeah, I didn't realize this song is taking a lot of shapes for me as I grow older and actually am in relationships.

And it's, the lyrics are real now.

And I was listening to it when you asked me.

Like what song has had the most impact on you is of course going to be Elliot, but it was so hard choosing a song.

But I think Waltz No.

One is what changed my taste in music, changed the way it was the first like time I was able to visualize things listening to a song without understanding the lyrics.

Yeah.

Yeah, I covered it when I was really young and it kind of, there's something about the repetition of the waltz and that, I think it's that kick bass drum that would play in my nightmares,

which is strange, but I would have these ongoing nightmares of a carousel and it would go on and on and on, which is the broken carousel type music.

And it was never-ending.

And it was just the repetition of that carousel and that bass drum would play and it left me feeling doomed.

And I've never felt a song that like, you know, hit me in the pit of my stomach like that before.

You say you found it on your own.

Do you remember when you first heard it?

Like the very first time?

Yeah, I remember, this is corny.

I remember it.

But I was driving to a play practice and my mom was driving and I just was the kid that always had my headphones in and i heard the song on your brother's ipod i had my own ipod at the time but i had all of his songs saved and i found it loved the album cover but i think while's number one because it was the first song i learned on piano and anytime i go to piano i'll do doon do

it just kind of lives in me

do you feel like you had the taste for that music before and just like hadn't heard it?

Or do you think hearing that for the first time made your taste become what what it is?

I was always drawn to, I found comfort and sadness really early on without understanding what sadness was.

I think that just reiterated my taste and fully shaped it and fully was the confirmation that this is what I find comfort in.

Because before that, I mean, I grew up with like an okay computer poster.

The men in my life were teaching that to me, Radiohead.

And Elliot was just more personal and helped me through high school in a way where I was like really self-destructive.

And I would just every night have my phone by my side.

I would always listen to his live videos because it felt like he was right by my side.

And it felt like it was kind of having just like a best friend by my side and like I wasn't alone, specifically in high school, because high school is really hard.

Why do you think that sad music would be helpful when you're feeling self-destructive, you know, as opposed to something that's like so the opposite that it would pull you out of that.

It's a good question.

And I think my relationship with it has changed as I've gotten older where it's harder to listen to Elliot.

And I was on a plane last night.

I played waltz number one for the first time in a while.

And it depends on where I'm at emotionally.

It's harder to listen to him, but there were phases where listening to him just centered me.

Even if it was really sad, it was the most normal kind of feeling.

It was just what I was used to.

And it was the most grounding, if anything, because it just felt like he was my best friend.

And I think to hear somebody else singing in a place from a place that matches the mood that you're in.

Totally.

It just makes you feel like I'm not the only person to have ever felt this way.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

I think that was also the biggest thing where it just felt like he had my back and nobody else did,

which is what everybody feels about Elliot.

And it's so interesting growing up and then coming to LA, where in Chicago, it's like, yes, people loved him, but specifically coming here to LA, I moved to my last Silver Lake apartment because it was right next to the figure eight sign, which is corny.

All these things I'm saying are corny, I realize.

And I realize that I'm not alone and feeling this way.

And there's something interesting about like being in LA and realizing that.

everybody else feels the same exact way.

I know.

It felt so bad to finally realize

how basic it was for him to be an influence on me.

Isn't it awful?

I, which is why I don't like concerts sometimes.

Yeah, yeah.

Because I just want it to be this like singular personal experience.

That's why Elliot is so good because it does feel like that singular personal experience.

Yeah.

I think that was a really hard moment in

the Elliot Smith fandom where I was like, oh, he's special only to.

I mean, he's, I know people like him, but he's special to me in a very particular way.

And then it's like, oh, no, no.

He's special to everyone in that exact same particular way.

He did really, when I think of my childhood, I think of Elliot Smith.

And he,

it's harder to listen to now because it feels a little bit more self-destructive.

But I feel like he's helped me become a better actor.

How so?

He centers me, like I said.

Listening to him

makes me get in touch with my emotions faster.

It's that I feel like music is always the easiest way to get to an emotional place or an emotional memory.

It's the fastest way for me out of any art form.

So, when you're on set, will you have headphones?

Always.

You'll listen to me.

And I'll just go to my trailer and I always make playlists, depending on which character I'm playing or what scene.

But I mean, like with Elliot, it's just like a switch.

Listening to Waltz Number One, The Plane yesterday, I just started sobbing.

More with Sophie Thatcher after this.

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This episode is brought to you by the new film Splitsville.

It's a comedy about relationships and the messiness that comes with them, and it stars Dakota Johnson and Adria Arhona.

It premiered at Cannes, where it got rave reviews, and it's distributed by Neon.

And for me, that's huge because I trust Neon the way that I trust my favorite record labels.

I will definitely check out anything that they put their name on.

So I'm looking forward to seeing this.

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You said that you covered Waltz Number One.

Yeah.

What was that like?

Oh, God, it was not.

It wasn't great.

I think I was 18.

I was staying in in the NYU dorms, but I wasn't going there.

I was taking Meissner classes, but it was my first time by myself.

And there was this room with a piano, and I would lock myself in at my computer and played it and just drowned it with reverb.

So you can't really hear it.

And that was my phase at the time, just drowning everything in reverb so that you couldn't tell when I was.

messing up in the piano.

But I did that.

And I remember like, it was kind of hard.

I was like swallowing the lyrics because it was hard for me to say them because I had such a weird connection with them.

And that was one of my first breakups and me being dramatic.

I sent the cover.

It was like I was going to send the cover to my ex to be dramatic when I was 18.

You must have such a different relationship with Elliot Smith than I can imagine, really, because when I first fell in love with his music, he was still alive.

Yeah.

If you were 11 when you first heard him, that would have been eight years after he passed away, a long time after he passed away.

Oh, yeah.

Long time after my brother had told me about a little bit about his life, but I

was just always researching him.

So how did your tastes change after you heard Waltz Number One?

Did it change like the kind of stuff that you sought out?

Yeah, I think I was seeking out songs with nostalgia.

When I listened to Waltz Number One, it felt like I'd heard the song before.

And then after that, that was always kind of that feeling that I was grasping onto.

And all my favorite songs are that way.

Where I know some people, it's like, oh, it's going to take a couple of times to listen to the song to like it.

I know immediately.

Where it's just that sense of I've heard this before and it feels comfortable and it feels like something you've experienced before.

Yeah.

But after listening to that, that was the strongest sense of nostalgia that I'd ever had.

I just wanted to get that feeling again because it's so strong.

What were some other things that you found that gave you that same kind of feeling?

Sparkle Horse was another that I got into around the same time.

It's a Wonderful Life, which is also a waltz.

That was a song that I got into immediately after that, which I think falls into the broken carousel pipe music.

And it shaped my taste completely.

It's a Wonderful Life and Waltz Number One.

If you listen to them back to back, you can see similarities.

Definitely.

There's just this haunting.

quality to both of them.

I sometimes look at stuff, especially like when I was 18, I feel like the stuff that I got really into

at one point I looked at it and I was like, oh yeah, I'm kind of looking for the same feeling in movies, in music, in art, like everything that I was looking for.

Like, were there movies that you watched that gave you the same kind of feeling?

Yeah.

One of my first favorite movies was Pan's Labyrinth.

I watched it way too early on.

I'm hugely obsessed with movie soundtracks.

And that theme song to Pan's Labyrinth had the same haunting lullaby-like quality.

Feels like something your mother would sing to you as a baby.

And that, I think it was around the same time that I was listening to the Pan's Labyrinth soundtrack that I was listening to waltz number one.

It was all just like tied together into this feeling like I'd heard it before, like Rosemary's Baby, which we were talking about with working on Companion.

And the Rosemary's Baby theme is also kind of a waltz.

I didn't know any of this stuff about you when I wrote the music, but the Iris theme is also a waltz.

It's also kind of

broken carousel its own way.

I mean, of course.

Yeah.

That's that's amazing.

Yeah.

But it comes from, and when I heard the song, I was, I wanted to cry.

Like when I heard the song you'd made, it just felt so me.

And it's all kind of coming together now.

Yeah.

There you go.

But so waltz number one was the first entry in the Sophie's broken carousel playlist of your life.

And then I grew up with a lot of neutral monk hotel

and all of that is pretty broken carousel.

Anything off of Elephant Six, the record label, is very broken carousel.

There's something a little off about it.

Yeah.

But a beautiful offness to it.

Would you want to then share your intense love of Elliot Smith with your family?

Since it sort of started with your brother and your twin sister.

I share it with everyone.

It was like I was putting people at gunpoint at some extent.

I was like, you have to listen to this.

And they're like, no, I don't want to right there.

Ellie feels the same way.

I know Ellie doesn't listen to him as much because

there are ties to feeling self-destructive listening to him

but I mean my mom loves him yeah very big Elliott fans in our family I don't talk to my dad anymore but my dad was a fan as well my sister actually my older sister took a while to get into him because it felt very much like my thing but now I mean I think it's kind of impossible not to like him yeah do you still share music with your siblings Oh, me and Ellie constantly showing music.

Me and Ellie have been working on some music together.

But she's not on the record you just put out, right?

The things she put out last year?

Oh, no, she played this like MIDI organ, but it's really, we kind of have different music tastes now, but I would love to make music with her because we grew up, I mean, it was just us at the computer on YouTube for hours looking up every recommended video.

When you did the cover of Waltz Number One, had you already started writing music of your own?

Yeah, it was pretty bad.

It was just layers of my vocals.

And Elliot is the reason why I layer all my vocals.

And I feel so bare and it feels so wrong when I don't have layered vocals.

It irks me.

And I thank him for that.

When I first started making music, it was kind of like unlistenable to an extent.

And then I was just writing waltzes.

I was writing so many.

All of my earliest songs, they're all waltzes on piano because of...

Waltz number one.

I feel like when there's an artist who you love so much and like they inspire you so much, it's really hard for the first music you make not to just sound like

that.

Yeah.

And you hear that in, I mean, you hear that in Elliot.

You hear that in so many different artists.

Yeah.

Because that's your first entryway.

And it's so hard to just like

be original or authentic.

This is maybe a weird question, but do you feel like you can trace the influence of Elliot Smith's music on you in your acting?

Yeah.

I don't know how.

I mean, he's a part of it.

It does feel like, again, it's like he was my childhood.

I think he's allowed me to be more vulnerable and okay with being vulnerable.

And I find strength in vulnerability.

And his music is so incredibly vulnerable and raw.

And I feel like if I didn't have that, and if I was listening to different music, I wouldn't even be able to access those emotions.

You can see Sophie Thatcher in the new movie Companion, which I composed the score for.

The score album is out now, which features vocals by Sophie on a few of the tracks.

There are links to all of that in the show notes.

Go to songexploder.net slash keychange for more.

I'll be back with a Song Exploder episode next week, and stay tuned for more KeyChange episodes in the future.

This episode was produced by me and Mary Dolan, with production assistance from Tiger Biscuit.

Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts.

You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm.

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I'm Rishikesh Hirwe.

Thanks for listening.

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