Jessie Reyez - Goliath

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This episode contains explicit language.

Jessie Reyes is a singer and songwriter originally from Toronto. She's won two of Canada's Juno Awards, and she's been nominated for a Grammy.

In addition to writing her own music, Jessie's been a songwriter on tracks by Calvin Harris, Dua Lipa, Sam Smith, Eminem, and many others.

You're probably aware that there are songwriters and producers whose names you'll find over and over again in the credits for big hits. Jesse is one of them.

But for this episode, I talked to her about her own song, Goliath. And the day that she wrote that song, she happened to be in the studio with a bunch of other songwriters and producers.

So I also talked to Jordan and Stefan Johnson from the production team Monsters and Strangers, and Jeff Gittelman, a Get Hate Giddy.

Between the three of them, their credits also include songs by Selena Gomez, Maroon 5, Alicia Keys, Mac Miller, and again, tons more.

When a group like this gets together to write music, they don't always know if they're going to be making a song that's going to get recorded and released by an artist somewhere down the line, or if that song is going to get recorded at all.

But in the case of Goliath, what came out was a song that was very personal to Jesse Reyes.

Where were you on the first day that you started working on this song? We were at the studio at the Monsters and Strangers spot.

It's a house that's been converted into a studio, which is great because the more I've done it and the more I've been lucky enough to be a full-time musician, the more I've found that I have a special love for when it's like a home setup.

It just feels much more intimate. And so they have a house that's been converted.

We have a house in Sherman Oaks, California, where the garage is a studio, the master bedroom is a studio, the guest bedroom is a studio, and it's kind of like our home base for work.

My name is Jordan Johnson, Monsters and Strangers. And I'm Stephan Johnson, Monsters and Strangers.
And who else was in the studio with the two of you and Jesse that day?

We don't write with Jesse with co-writers very often. Like she, you know, is a full-fledged, she can do lyric melody, do the whole thing.

But Jeff Giddy and also for Goliath, Lunch Money Lewis actually happened to be there. So it was me and the boys.
We were having a conversation with Jesse

about some stuff that was going on in her life. And then the producer we were working with, Jeff Giddy, he pulled up a bunch of music beds.
Hello, my name is Jeff Gittelman, aka Giddy.

The more experience I get and the older I get in this industry, the more I just really like to be prepared. And so with this song in particular, I had an idea that I prepped.

I came up with the idea on the Wurlitzer.

And so I just heard like a one, two, three, four major chord progression.

And then I laid down the guitar.

What's your main instrument? Do you have one? Well, yeah, I came up as a guitar player. My first job in the business was touring with Lauren Hill playing guitar in 2005.

Was this lead guitar melody part in there from the very beginning? Yeah, I just want to do something that's melodic and iconic.

Do you think you could explain why that's so important?

So I asked one of my OGs, Craig Kalman, one time, what makes a hit record, you know?

And he said, well, listen, rule number one is before the vocals come in the music's got to sound like a hit so I was like oh shit as a producer I actually have a power without the lyrics and the melody which are so important but I have the power outside of that to make somebody feel something and so yeah I wanted to have a melody but I didn't want to make it too high to where it gets in the way of the vocal

The older I get, the more I want to do with less. So it's literally one take of each instrument and onto take.

And off the bat, when I hear it back, it sounds exactly how I want it to sound versus spending the same amount of time doing the take and then having to spend 30 minutes like messing with plugins.

And so besides the bass and the two guitars, an important element that I thought belonged was a Hammond B3 organ.

Instead of just playing one sound, I'm constantly changing my foot pedal on the volume. I'm constantly changing the drawbars.
And so you're not listening for it.

It's subconscious, but it's evolving pretty much throughout the whole thing.

Who's playing that trumpet? That is my friend Miles Julian. And so, yeah, that that was in the original little loop that I played for Monsters and Jesse that day.

So

we were in the room playing the music

and I was in there with my eyes closed.

It was my niece's birthday, and I hadn't been able to speak to her in a long time. Despite trying, I hadn't been able to speak to her.
But just a difficult time with my family, some of my family.

Me and my brother and my sister-in-law have been going through it. And by default, I haven't been able to see the kids as much as I'd like to.
Their kids? Yeah,

who are my favorite people. And then I got my call returned and I got her on the phone and I left the studio and I went outside and I

was trying to keep it together and she's younger and I started getting emotional and I was really trying to control it because you know when adults understand those kind of tears but kids don't they're kind of perplexed so I was it was just it was combustible it was like really, it was a lot and I was trying to keep it together.

We talked for a bit. And then we said goodbye.
And then it was waterworks.

And then I got my bearings and then I went back inside. And when I got back in the room, I shut my eyes.

But I also leaned back because if there was tears coming, I don't want to cry in a room full of people either. So I was leaning back.

The tears are going sideways because I was just thinking about how much I love her.

Let me play the voice memo that you sent me.

Cause my eyeball man on the Bible,

and I would walk through any fire,

walk through, walk through, bed, walk, walk in bed for the fire.

When I say I love you,

it means I pull every star from the sky down.

For you, I would press at the title. The use and the missing time

when I say I love

you

it's interesting to listen to that voice memo because well one the music is slower but also you're going through this thing but the guys in the background are just they're just chatting

I was in the same room, but I was in another world. Yeah, I remember her getting emotional that day during the process.
You could see it was like a definitely a pure feeling that she was channeling.

She just went into her, we call it her little trance state, where she'll literally stay silent for 30 minutes to an hour or two hours, and then she'll pop her head up.

She'll be like, all right, I got something. It's funny because it sounds so easy, but it's also a technique that I've worked on for over a decade.

Her writing process is so crazy and she doesn't write anything down and it's like almost so instant. She doesn't write anything down?

Oh, yeah. She doesn't write a thing down.
She got that from Babyface. When Babyface said, if it's good enough, you'll remember.
And this was a long time ago because I've been working for years.

I've never seen her write stuff down. And she instantly gets the melody and the lyrics.
And the chorus to Goliath came up. When I say I love you,

I mean, I would pull every star from the sky down, or square up with any Goliath,

or moonwalk in the red fire. When I said I love you,

I ain't trying to do this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm around you.
I was about to give up till I found you.

What was right about this music to connect this experience that you've been going through to that feeling? Some chords just elicit that sort of reaction.

They feel warm. They feel nostalgic.
They feel like a hug. Yeah, it just feels like love.
So it was like the perfect canvas. Every lyric couldn't be more true.
I just love her.

My conversation with Jesse Reyes and the story of Making Goliath continues after this.

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When I first heard the hook, I was like, yo, this is like one of the sickest love songs. Like this could be timeless classic.
And then that's when she kind of.

explained that like she wasn't writing it as a love song, a romantic love song.

And then once the chorus was done, I again got my bearings again, kind of got my footing, and then looked at it a little bit more pragmatically and strategically and

almost reminded myself that not everybody understands that sort of love unless you have kids in your life,

unless you have a relationship like that with kids where it's like pure love, you don't really understand that until you do. Yeah.
But if you don't, it's something foreign.

So I thought, what's more universal? Well, it seems like romantic love is much more universal than that kind of love. So then the verses are deliberately more romantic.

Love me broke and the water's pouring.

You turn me into apple pie. No letting go, babies, you I'm holding, holding on to till the end of time.

That lyric

broke and the water's pouring.

You turn me into apple pie.

So that lyric, it was originally in

this song that I wrote years ago called French Boys. And it ended up going in the pitch folder because it just didn't feel right for me at the time.
What does that mean? The pitch folder?

Just songs that I love, but don't like sweaters I've made that don't fit me, but I know they're elite.

So they go in the pitch folder for when artists are looking that I know I could pitch this song for that artist or pitch this song for that movie, you know?

So it went into that pitch folder and then we ended up pitching it to lisa from blackpink

they loved it but they asked for some revisions but it's so cool when moments happen like this where a lyric can come to live and still see the light of day just somewhere else it was nice that i was able to save it deleted every contact from my phone baby if i'm honest i ain't trying to talk to no one but you cuddled in your arms or from my home baby if i'm honest i dropped every single hole for you.

I recorded it without drums, so it's very leaned back. In terms of the rhythm and feel of your delivery? Yeah.
I was hella leaning back because there was no drums. And then the drums got added after.

The person playing drums on this record is Drew McKinnon. And when the drums got added after, I talked to to the guys and I was like, fuck, I feel like I should re-record it.

Jesse tried multiple times to re-sing over the drums. But they looked at me and they were like, Jess, it sounds elite because it sounds like very floaty.
It sounds right still.

Don't second guess it, it sounds right. And I was like, okay.

Deleted every contact from my phone. Baby, if I'm honest, I ain't trying to talk to no one.
But you cuddled in your arms or from my home. Baby, if I'm honest, I dapped every single hole for you.

But I felt like some of the pocket was a little off. So then we manually adjusted, I don't know, maybe three or four words in the second verse just to sit forward a bit more.

Jesse ran me through the ringer a little bit. What we ended up doing is nudging some of the original vocals around instead of using the new ones.
It was just nice to be able to go in meticulous.

And I love...

I just got to sing that praises so much because in the moments where I do feel like going into the minutia and editing editing and like to someone else to someone that doesn't care about it it's gonna feel tedious

but to someone who cares just as much and someone who trusts you as much as you trust them they're gonna be like cool come in I'll make two hours today I'll make an hour of my time I got sessions but come in and we'll do those little minor changes to move a word a millisecond to the right

and a millisecond to the left. And then the left is too much.
So now split the millisecond difference and now do that. And now let's change the BPM again and now let's AMB them.

And it's very, very tedious, meticulous, but tedious shit, arguably. But when you give a fuck,

it matters.

And again, not everybody's like that. Not every producer or production team is going to be like, yeah, sure, come in.
We got sessions today, but we'll go in the other room and we'll make this happen.

And they did. Yeah.
Anything for Jesse?

Watching her write songs is like watching a basketball player do 360 double-handed dunks. And just, it's just, it's an incredible thing to witness.

It's really, I feel privileged to be able to witness her process and, and also very grateful that she lets us into the process to be able to mold things, specifically in the pre-chorus.

The pre for me was originally the post. Find those keepers, losers, weepers, let the streets cry.

Find us, keepers, losers, weepers, not you all mine.

I recorded everything and then I think I went to do something. And then when I came back, Steph was at the board and he was like, hey, he's like, we just did a little change.

Like, tell me how you feel. And it just feels so much better.
And he was 100% right. They were right.

The beautiful thing about Monsters and Strangers is that they really

understand,

you know, what's the most iconic part of the record? What's the part that's the hook? What's the key? Just formatting and putting a record together and getting the best out of artists.

Find those keepers losers, waiters,

I'm a student of this game and I remember years ago I saw an interview that Pharrell did and he was talking about how in songs there's just nothing new. There's nothing new under the sun.

Everything's been written about. But the beauty and the artistry is in finding those classic quintessential human emotions or moments and describing them in a different way.

Also, he was like, it's really slick if you can pull on someone's nostalgia because there's moments that you just, you know, your inner child just holds close.

He's like, it's slick if you could, if you could do that because it's going to resonate more with somebody if you're able to pull that way. I think that's so cool.

So I was able to do that in that pre. By saying, find just by saying the words.
Finderskeepers, yeah, post to nostalgia already.

When she first laid down the chorus, I think we were just in the room all kind of being like, New shit, new shit. We'll just do that sometimes in the room, just get her hyped up.

And Lunch Money Lewis was like, Oh, it's that brand new Jesse, Jesse, Jesse. And he literally did it like that.
And we were like, That should be the intro of the record.

And he picked up the mic and he literally did that.

That's so good. That moment to me, it just started feeling like a record.
I don't know, it just felt like magic. That's one of my favorite parts about the record, too, just that little piece.

how did you feel about the song by the time you'd finished all the work for it i knew the song was great the day we made it i'm not i'm grateful but i knew it was great yeah how often do you feel that way A lot of my quality product comes from my quantity.

I'm lucky that I'm able to do that because not all my songs are great.

Some of my songs suck, but that's how I'm able to get them because i my output is so fucking high that i can make 10 and 10 might be shit but 11 is going to be lit and you're not going to get to number 11 unless you do you're not going to get to the good songs yeah until you get to the shitty ones

the funny thing about this one i actually prepped this idea for a whole other artist really i sent it to the artist that i was prepping it for and they i don't think they ever replied to my text message and so i'm just like oh okay i guess they don't love it and so i put it back into my vault And then when, you know, when we're working with Jesse, I was like, ah, you know what?

Let me, let me go into this little chapter right here. And then that's when I pressed play.
And right off the bat, Jesse heard it, knew what it was, and nailed it.

Has your niece been able to hear the song? Have you had a chance to talk to her since that call? No.

I'm sorry. That's okay.
That's okay. It is what it is.
Nothing's perfect. I don't know if she's been able to hear it.
Hopefully she has.

I just love her.

And now, here's Goliath by Jesse Reyes in its entirety.

When I say I love you,

I mean I would pull every star from the sky down, or square up with any collar.

Or moonwalk you through the fire. When I say I love you,

I mean I ain't tryna do this life without ya. It's a bad day until I'm around ya.
I was proud to give up till I found ya. You love me like a Sunday morning,

but you kiss me like a Friday night.

Many blessings, the cup run is over.

Slow loving is a holy night.

Love you broke and the water's pouring.

You turn me into apple pie. No letting go, babies who I'm holding.

Holding on to the end of time.

Fighters, keepers, losers, wipers. Let the streets cry.

Fight those keepers, losers, wipers. Now you are mine.

When I say I love you,

I mean I would pull every star from the sky.

Or square pop with any guide.

or moonwalk you through any fire. When I say I love you,

I mean, I ain't tryna do this life without you.

It's a bad day until I'm around you.

I was protected.

When I say I love you,

when I say I love ya,

deleted every contact from my phone.

Baby, if I'm honest, I ain't tryna talk to to no one But you cuddled in your arms or from a home Baby, if I'm honest, I dropped every single hole For you I'm a little local, but you look on me matched And Gemini's ain't really known for getting attached But I've been looking at our pics and my phone Think you got me hooked on you like a hits on Fighters, keepers, losers, weepers

keepers, losers, weepers Now you are mine

When I say I love you,

I mean, I would pull every star from the sky down,

or square up with any guy,

or moonwalk you through the fire. When I say I love you,

I mean, I ain't tryna talk this life without you. It's a bad day until I'm around you.

I always protect your fault till I find you. When I say I love you,

when I say I love you,

visit songexploder.net to learn more. You'll find links to buy and stream Goliath, and you can watch the music video.

This episode was produced by me, Craig Ely, Mary Dolan, and Kathleen Smith, with production assistance from Tiger Biscuit.

The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo.

Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm.

I write a newsletter where I talk about the making of some of these episodes and about music and film and generally about the creative process.

And you can find a link to that newsletter on the Song Exploder website. You can also get a Song Exploder shirt at songexploder.net/slash shirt.
I'm Rishikesh Hiraway. Thanks for listening.

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