Episode 307

Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences.

Listener discretion is advised.

Stop it!

It was stop it!

And a name or a word, stop it!

And then I heard the

and then the

and that went on for like maybe 10-15 seconds.

It was weird.

It definitely caught my attention.

And after that, it was silent.

All right, Bozos, I'm back.

That's my new word.

I'm adopting it.

This is episode 307.

Jesus Christ, how many episodes do we need?

Of Sword and Scale.

A show that reveals that the worst monsters are real.

Let's jazzer size.

It was just starting to get warm again in Cedar Creek, Indiana.

With the April weather bringing sunny days, spring was in full effect.

Near Cedar Creek, Andy Hicks and his wife, Margaret, were out hunting for scrap metal.

They liked to look for scrap metal to sell to local recyclers for a few extra bucks.

That day, Andy and his wife were going to a spot they'd been to before that only locals knew about.

A narrow dirt path led to a hidden dump site concealed by dense vegetation.

Andy and his wife stopped the car, got out, and waded through the tall grass to the dump site.

The site was down a slight embankment, obscured from the view of the road.

Just like any other time, they started sifting through the rubbish looking for the glint of metal.

But this time, they would find so much more.

Okay.

I found her jawbone first.

Picked it up, was looking at at it,

realized what it was.

I hung it in a little tree right there next to where we found it.

Okay, and then when we went and called the police, they transferred us to the DNR.

And DNR is asking me, well, what makes you so sure it's a human jawbone?

And I said, well, buddy, I've seen every kind of animal bone there is, and this is shaped just like mine.

It's got all the damn teeth.

A chill.

ran down Andy's back when he found a human jawbone amongst the scattered trash.

He was partially in disbelief, but decided to hang it on the branch of a tree to mark the location where he found it, so it could be spotted later.

He called the police, but they didn't seem to believe him.

I mean, there's a lot of gullible people out there listening to true crime podcasts, so a lot of false reports come in all the time.

The dispatcher transferred Andy to the DNR, or Department of Natural Resources.

They were basically game wardens, wilderness cops, not criminal investigators.

We was going to go take a picture of it.

And then

we sat down here, and my wife was poking around, and we found this plastic bag.

She poked it with a stick, and it tore open on the front.

And there was her skull in her hair.

They wanted to take a picture of the jawbone and send it to the police so that they would believe them.

That it wasn't just an animal bone.

But they stumbled upon something unmistakably human.

The skull was in a croatered grocery bag.

A brown plastic grocery bag.

Andy, his wife, and the police were now convinced they had found human remains.

To see where it was laying, I mean, the way it was, you know, it looked like somebody had just put a bag over her head and

wrapped her up and covered her with trash.

The remains were only bones, a little hair, and tattered clothing, all but gone.

It was obvious to Andy that these bones had been placed there.

Somebody placed her there about six feet from the road and covered her up with a bunch of trash.

The remains were only six feet from the road and close to two houses.

But the area was heavily wooded, and the site was down an embankment.

There was no way the remains could have been spotted unless you were right on top of them.

The state of the remains suggested that the bones had been there for quite a while, but they weren't buried.

They were just kind of covered in trash.

Authorities would later wonder if the remains were simply washed from one location to another by the waters of a nearby creek.

But Andy knew better.

It was deliberately done because that water, I mean, you know,

that water's been that high,

but it's been 10 years

since that water has been that high.

I mean,

there's no way that water gets that high that would have put her there.

Andy was shocked by both what he found and the amount of time it took police to arrive.

Even with the report of a human skull, it took authorities over three hours to get there.

When the cops got there, they just, you know, their DFR cops and everybody.

When they got there, they just looked over the bank.

I showed them where it was at.

They said, yeah, that sure looks like it.

Then they called the coroner, and the coroner came down here and took everything out.

The remains were wrapped in black plastic sheeting, except for the head, which was in a grocery bag.

The bones showed signs of animal disturbance and were incomplete.

Small bones, like fingers, were likely carried off by animals.

With the remains verified as human, the Indiana State Police took over the investigation.

Troopers reviewed missing persons' cases and found similarities between the remains and a woman who went missing in Fairfield, Ohio, nearly two two years earlier, 21-year-old Caitlin Markham.

Caitlin had a distinctive crooked canine tooth and a molar with a crown.

The coroner would estimate the time of death as the second or third week of August 2011, but could not determine the cause of death because of decomposition.

They did find three cuts on the left wristbone, indicating a possible attempt at dismemberment.

The discovery of Caitlin's remains, 36 miles from her last known location, across state lines, turned her missing persons case into a homicide investigation.

One year and eight months earlier, Caitlin and her fiancé John Carter were preparing for the next stage of their lives.

Caitlin was on the verge of graduating from the Art Institute of Cincinnati with a degree in graphic design, and they were planning to move away from Fairfield to Colorado.

But on August 12th, 2011, in the midst of exams, Caitlin just needed to relax a bit.

She and John went to the Sacred Heart Festival, an annual festival held by the Catholic Church nearby.

For a moment, they were carefree, unaware of the tragedy that lay ahead.

I remember that we went to the festival, and I remember that we sat and ate, and I vaguely remember going and sitting at the hill.

Festivals were special places for Caitlin and John.

When they started dating in high school, going to the local fairs and festivals was a regular date night.

On this night, John wanted to buy raffle tickets for a chance to win $10,000.

That was like one of the first places we really started hanging out was at the fair.

This is around the time that we started hanging out.

And, you know, so we just, we always went there.

Caitlin and John enjoyed the sights and sounds of the festival.

They listened to some music and ate some some horribly bad for you fried food.

I like me a nice roasted corn on the cob.

How about you?

Not a big elephant ear guy, but I do enjoy one on occasion.

But a storm was brewing on the horizon, and they walked back to Caitlin's house well before the end of the festival at midnight.

The following night, August 13th, Caitlin was hard at work on her final.

John invited a friend over, Bradley von Bargen, to discuss putting a trailer hitch on his car for their upcoming move to Colorado.

I mean, like, I used to be a mechanic.

I get people hitting me up with car questions all the time, and it was actually about putting a hitch to his car.

And, you know, so like I ended up calling him, like, wait, what are you trying to do?

What are you towing?

And he's like, well, I'm trying to get like a U-Haul to attach to my car because here's the big news.

We're thinking about moving to Colorado.

Bradley had known Caitlin for years, but only knew John through her.

They had all been friends hanging out occasionally, but work and life had caused Bradley to lose touch.

So when John invited him over to catch up, Bradley went right after work.

We ended up talking more about them going to Colorado than anything.

John made the comment about like, you know, pushing his comfort zone.

He even said, like, well, how are you guys going to plan it?

Do you have any place in mind?

He's like, and his response was, we were joking and laughingly.

He said,

it's like, I really like to just wing it.

And I said this, I was like, dude, that's funny because that's how I would probably handle this situation.

No planning, just go for it.

And he's like, but Caitlin, on the other hand, likes to have everything planned out.

This is where it's going.

This is where we'll be.

The three talked for over an hour about life and about moving to Colorado.

But Bradley noticed Caitlin was being a little distant.

She wasn't her bubbly usual self, you know?

John explained that she was working on a school project, but it still seemed odd to Bradley.

After a while, he announced that he was leaving.

And I'm like, I even have to say bye to Caitlin.

It's almost like she didn't even say bye to me.

Like, I had to almost initiate any interaction with her.

Bradley walked outside and got into his car, but couldn't shake Caitlin's odd behavior.

What was going on?

That was just weird.

That just wasn't like her.

It's out of the norm.

John stayed for another hour before getting bored and leaving for a party.

He said goodnight to Caitlin and turned to leave.

On the way out, he offered to take a bag of her old financial documents and destroy them.

She'd been keeping it next to the door to remind herself.

She thanked him him and he left.

She knew that I was going to go to Jake's because I had talked to Joey a little bit beforehand, I think, at some point.

And then I had called Joey again and said, hey, what are you doing?

He's like, I'm at Jake's.

I was like, okay, I'll meet you over there.

John left Caitlin's townhome and drove to his friend's house, which was not far away.

There he met several of his friends around a backyard fire.

They dumped the bag of documents in the fire and texted Caitlin that the job was done.

But after being at the party for a while, John wasn't really enjoying himself.

And someone was like, Why aren't you talking so as much as you usually do?

I was like, I don't know, I guess I'm hungry.

So I tried to get food and then I stayed for a little longer after I ate.

And I was like, I'm just going to go home.

John went to his parents' house where he lived, grabbed a bite to eat, and went to his room to watch a couple of episodes of his favorite TV show, White Collar.

Never heard of that one.

Sounds stupid.

He texted Caitlin good morning at 4 a.m.

before he went to sleep.

The next day, he woke up around noon and let his dog out and started getting ready for a shift at Papa John's.

He didn't even notice that Caitlin hadn't responded to his 4 a.m.

text until he got to work.

Then he texted her again, but still didn't get a response.

After like the second message, I started feeling like, oh no, and then on top of the eccedrin, it's like making me shake and I'm like, oh god, you know and it just really freaked me out John was immediately worried he asked his shift supervisor to let him check on her John delivered a couple of pizzas on the way and when he got to her apartment he saw something that made his stomach sink

her car

in the parking lot if she's not responding she's at work okay and if she's at work then her car's not there I walked in and, you know, I just assumed she'd be upstairs.

So I walked in and I ran upstairs.

And then, as soon as I realized she wasn't there, I was like, maybe she's somewhere else in the house.

So I'm just screaming to find out if she's somewhere else.

He checked every room.

Caitlin was nowhere to be found.

Her dog, Murphy, was locked in her bedroom, which was odd because Caitlin always put him in the downstairs bathroom when she left.

Careful 911, where's your emergency?

Hi, my name is John Carter.

I am calling.

I know that you're not supposed to report a missing person before 24 hours,

but

my fiancé is missing.

I can't find her anywhere.

I'm just, I'm really nervous.

Her car is still there.

Is there an hour?

That's like a house.

Yeah, 5214 Dorshire Drive.

Like, have been trying to get a hold of her, and I decided to go by her house to see if she was okay.

And her car was still there.

She would be at work right now with her car, which is why I'm like really freaking out.

Where was she

at midnight last night when you you like?

She was at her house.

She was going to bed.

I mean, I've been with her for six years.

She's not deceiving, you know, she doesn't.

Okay, and you guys didn't have an argument or anything?

Not at all.

The only thing that's not there is her cell phone, which is positive, but she's not answering it.

So.

And the Sacred Heart Festival is going on right up the street, and there's a lot of questionable people there, and it's just kind of...

I'm sorry.

John Carter called 911, his voice shaky and worried.

Caitlin was missing, but everything else, her purse, wallet, her car keys, laptop, even her dog, was still there.

It was like she had just disappeared without a trace, leaving her life hanging.

That 911 call kicked off an investigation, but it didn't lead to any answers.

Days turned into weeks, and weeks dragged on into months.

Eventually, the case went cold.

By the time Andy Hicks and his wife found a skull on an Indiana dump site, Caitlin had been missing for almost two years.

And even then,

the real story was still buried.

It wasn't until 12 years later that investigators finally figured out what happened to Caitlin Markham.

12 long years before they caught up with the guy they suspected had been hiding in plain sight all along.

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Almost two years after she disappeared without a trace, Caitlin Markham's skeletonized remains were found 36 miles away across state lines in Indiana.

Her bones were found under some trash in an illegal dump site in a rural part of the state.

The local authorities didn't seem to take it all too seriously until the remains were identified as Caitlin's.

Then, the Indiana State Police, or ISP,

I know, a lot of these places in Indiana have acronyms that are actually something else for everyone else, like ISP,

DNR,

but in this case, ISP means Indiana State Police, not internet service provider.

The ISP took over and cooperated with the Fairfield PD.

While the case had seemingly stalled, the Fairfield PD had never stopped investigating.

Regardless, they hadn't really gotten anywhere.

So the ISP started at the very beginning and got to know who Caitlin really was.

21 years before she went missing, Caitlin's parents, David and Sherry, were desperately trying to have a baby.

Caitlin, not biological?

Correct.

A doctor.

Adopted or a private adoption.

It was actually

Sherry's cousin.

Okay.

So was this something prearranged beforehand?

No, she got pregnant.

Okay.

And was going to give the child up for adoption.

Okay.

She hid it from her parents, and so it really happened pretty fast.

Right.

We've been trying to have kids with no luck.

Okay.

And then when we found out that she was pregnant, she was not going to terminate the baby.

So

I guess her mom suggested it.

Caitlin's biological grandmother suggested it.

Worked out pretty good.

Worked out pretty good.

Yeah.

So.

Caitlin's biological mother was Sherry's cousin.

But she was very young, too young to raise a baby.

So Sherry and David adopted Caitlin and finally had a child of their own.

The Markhams loved their new baby girl and fostered all her interests.

But the happiness the family shared would soon spoil.

What happened between you and Sherry.

What would you blame

the failure of the marriage on?

Can I be blunt?

Sure.

She's a lazy piece of shit.

Really?

Yeah,

she stopped doing everything.

I mean, just

stayed in bed and shopped QVC.

Really?

Yeah, didn't do shit.

So I was doing everything.

I was doing everything for the kids.

And actually, Caitlin was the one that prompted me to move out.

She one day, when she was 16, she said, why do you put up with this shit, Dad?

I said, because of you and the girls.

She goes, well, I'm going with you.

So she moved out with me.

And about three months later, Allie moved in with me.

Allie lived with me

for the most part.

Okay.

At 16, she saw her parents' marriage fall apart.

She blamed her mother and grew closer to her father.

During these formative years, her unique personality started to show.

She became an outspoken, audacious teen with her own opinions and her own style.

That's when she met John Carter.

Back then, they were two peas in a pod.

They were both very gothic.

They were very hippie.

They were very

grungy.

And they were very loud and outspoken.

And that's what drew them together.

When I met him, I'm like, of course they're perfect for each other.

They

were best friends.

Like some of her age, she chose to express herself by bucking social norms.

She wore dark eyeliner like goth kids and layered mismatched clothing like grunge kids.

She dyed her hair all sorts of colors.

When she met John, they just clicked.

They had that similar, you know, alternative bohemian thing going on.

And they'd been together ever since.

They dated all through high school, and after graduation, Caitlin pursued a degree in art and enrolled in the Art Institute of Ohio.

Getting a degree and pursuing a career in art was her main focus, but somehow she juggled all that with two part-time jobs.

She got one job at the campus bookstore where she earned the trust of her manager.

She was excellent.

I mean,

she was just one of the best steam workers I've ever had.

She would do anything for you.

She could run that store by herself.

And that's why I loved having her there because I could trust her.

that she would take care of any issues that would come up and she could open the store or close the store.

But I had total trust in her she got another job at david's bridal where she made an impression on all of her co-workers people ask me all the time like was caitlin weird you know before

caitlin was a weird individual as that's her personality she was bubbly she liked colored hair she wore a yellow velvet suit jacket with red pants i mean the girl she loved her personality Well, as I got to know her, I really wanted to be her friend because she was at that time, like one of the coolest people I think I'd ever met.

And she was just like effortlessly cool.

And she was like kind of artistic and she was funny.

And like,

I wanted to be her friend.

Caitlin made friends with everyone, everywhere she went.

At David's bridal, even the older women were impressed with her talent and ambition.

And she appreciated their experienced guidance.

She was really focused on getting her art career.

She wasn't sure if she wanted to be a full-time artist versus teaching art or what exactly she was going to focus on in art.

So we talked about that a lot because she was excited about art, art, art.

Art was her focus.

Art was her whole life.

She worked two part-time jobs while going to school.

It was hard, but she did it and got an associate's degree.

By this time, her father had a new girlfriend and was rarely at the condo.

that they shared.

Caitlin was starting to get a feeling for what it was like to be on her own.

Her talent and drive landed her a prestigious internship at Art Beyond Boundaries, an art gallery in Cincinnati.

And on her 21st birthday, John proposed.

And she said yes.

They started planning the rest of their lives together.

After graduation, they would move to Colorado for a change of pace and a chance to spread their wings and grow.

But just weeks before graduation and two days before her 22nd birthday, she vanished.

Her last known communication with John was at 11.36 p.m.

Shortly after midnight, her phone went dark.

It was as if she had just walked away from her life.

But that was so unlikely with everything she had to look forward to.

Just didn't make sense.

Through the investigation, a suspect came to light.

Megan Gordon, a friend and somewhat mentor of Caitlin's, shared some advice with her.

They were in school together, but Megan was older and had more life experience, so Caitlin often confided in her.

And

I

advised her to stay far away from this kid.

I told her, you know, just you need to cut him off completely, cut him off completely.

I was definitely concerned for her because his interest in her was inappropriate and it was definitely, she felt uncomfortable.

I remember her telling me she didn't know what to do.

She felt uncomfortable, but she didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

Caitlin tried to tell him she wasn't interested, but...

Not wanting to hurt his feelings, she tried to let him down gently.

Unfortunately, this was the kind of guy that didn't take the hint.

The kid's name was Christopher Ball.

He immediately rose to the top of the suspect list because, well, he was a registered sex offender.

Because he couldn't provide an exact alibi, they searched his electronics and gave him a CVSA.

I know that one was close too, but that one stands for Computer Voice Stress Analysis Test.

A CVSA measures subtle changes in a person's voice to detect deception.

It's a my detector test.

Chris Ball had little to no contact with Caitlin since high school, other than a few Facebook interactions, and he passed the test.

Then another suspect emerged, a man who used to live near Caitlin as recently as a month and a half before her disappearance and was arrested for an unrelated sexual battery.

His proximity and criminal record made him suspicious, but His phone records and work schedule didn't place him anywhere near her that night.

Of course, the Fairfield PD also looked into Bradley Vaughan Bargen because he was one of the last people to see her, but his alibi checked out.

It looked into John Carter too, as he was actually the last one to see her by his own admission.

His alibi was pretty tight, but there were some brief periods of time that no one could corroborate.

Not to mention he had suspicious scratches on his neck.

that he blamed on his electric razor.

So they gave him a CVSA test also, you know, for shits and giggles.

We have something that's called a tendency.

You have a tendency to block on particular questions.

Okay.

The scariest ones, I'm sure.

Well, this one is, is today, Monday.

You said yes,

but you had a tendency to block on it.

For me, the reason that you would have a tendency to block on that question is because you're nervous.

It's as simple as that.

We get into question number four when it gets to the pertinent questions about knowing the whereabouts.

you have a tendency to block on this one too.

Okay.

Now, if we go to chart number two, which chart two is the only one we use.

Okay.

Okay.

I'll show you.

Is your name John?

Yes.

Just color the door brown.

You said no.

It actually gave me a truthful reading.

Okay.

The way these tests work is they'll ask you a series of questions.

And some of the the questions are control questions.

They're obviously true, and others are purposely false.

This sets a baseline for what truth and lies look like per individual.

John was all over the place.

He was showing signs of deception on obviously true questions like, is today Monday?

And he was reading true on obvious lies like, is the door brown?

I get to the pertinent question again.

Do you have any information pertaining to the whereabouts?

No,

but I have a tendency here.

Okay.

Did you cause a disappearance of Caitlin Markham?

You put no,

and it showed a truthful response here.

But when we get to number seven, are we in the city of Fairfield?

You say yes.

You blocked hard on this.

I want you to know that

these charts have determined that there was deception in your answers.

Okay.

John was at a loss.

He assured them that he would do anything they wanted if it would lead to Caitlin, but he couldn't explain his failure on the test.

He maintained he was telling the truth.

When you said disappearance,

it really

freaks me out.

I just...

I'm just really scared.

I'm genuinely scared.

And what are you scared of right now?

Not getting Caitlin back.

Okay.

And I don't.

I don't know why it's inconclusive.

I'm more than willing to do anything else to prove that I'm not involved in her disappearance.

Okay.

The police were at a loss also.

They knew the statistics.

Something like 34% of murdered women are killed by an intimate partner.

It ain't rocket science.

John was very cooperative, though, and they had no evidence directly tying him to,

well,

anything.

They actually didn't have any physical evidence at all.

While they were suspicious of John, they couldn't prove he did anything.

But they also couldn't rule him out, so they just kept investigating.

One real lead came months later in 2012 when allegations of sexual harassment were made against David Clemens, Caitlin's boss at the campus bookstore.

One of his young female employees claimed he made inappropriate comments to her, calling her high-heel shoes, fuck me boots.

Can't say stuff like that at work, obviously.

You'll get me-tooed immediately.

Anyway, the claims went beyond that.

She also claimed that he pulled her onto his lap and hugged her and asked her to bring alcohol to work.

And when she refused, he became angry, according to her.

Well, I know, you know, that you're on a menstruation league right now.

Yes.

Okay.

And I understand, I know, and I know why that you're on a menstruated league with that.

What do you think about that?

It's completely false.

Okay.

What's the ML here?

I mean, why do you think she would say something to that?

You know, I thought about it over and over.

The only thing I can think of is when I reprimanded her the last day she worked.

David acted innocent, but they weren't there to talk about the sexual allegations against him.

They were there to talk about Caitlin.

Among her things, detectives found a handwritten letter from Caitlin to someone named Dave.

This was a letter

that was found at Caitlin's house.

The letter reads in part,

Dear Dave, I don't really know how to tell you this, but I'm selling myself for candy.

I think I realized it when you smacked my butt at the Elton John concert, and I saw you sit on your My Little Pony collection.

I'm sure you're middle class enough to understand that I get turned on by garbage men.

I'm returning your Hannah Montana underwear to you, but I'll keep the results of that blood sample as a memory.

You make me sick.

Caitlin Markham.

Maybe I'm not the investigator I think I am, but I have no idea what any of that means.

I have no idea where that came from.

Well, we're just

curious.

Um,

It's obviously addressed to Dave, whoever Dave is.

We're trying to figure that out ourselves.

I mean, that's obviously.

That's definitely not me.

That's completely baffling to me, to be honest with you.

It reads like mad lips.

As odd as the letter was, it wasn't enough to connect David to Caitlin's disappearance.

They asked Dave to take a CVSA test, in other words, a lie detector test, and he hesitantly agreed, only to later change his mind.

His alibi checked out, though.

He was at dinner with his wife and his in-laws, so he was crossed off the list.

During that time, Caitlin's family and community searched high and low.

Authorities used dogs, drones, helicopters, and volunteers to scour the surrounding rivers, creeks, wooded areas, and even sewers to find Caitlin.

But there was no sign of her.

The investigation would go on on for one year and eight months with no substantial developments until her remains were found at the dumpsite.

When the ISP, or Indiana State Police, took over the investigation, they almost immediately bungled the case.

It took hours for them to arrive at the dump site, first of all.

They did little to no forensics, instead opting to come back a couple days later, and they didn't really do a very good job.

Days later, mourners visiting the site found more of Caitlin's remains.

They discovered her complete hip bone.

The dump site itself held no real clues and there was certainly no DNA evidence on the sun-bleached bones.

One potential clue was the dump site's location.

John Carter's father owned property in Indiana.

It was 50 acres of woods with a pond, a cave, and a waterfall.

From Fairfield, there were only two routes to this property.

Caitlin's remains were found almost exactly midway on one of those routes.

Suddenly, the ISP's only focus became John Carter.

I think that

you

apparently had been questioned early on by the police.

And

at one point in time, it's my understanding that There was a reason to believe that you were being dishonest about something.

I'm not being evasive.

I'm just saying something.

I mean, I know that I've taken multiple lie detector tests, and I know that I've been accused of being dishonest.

And I know that

somebody thinks that I have some sort of something that I'm hiding, but I promise you that I am not.

I am not hiding anything.

This interview took place in August 2013, four months after Caitlin's remains were found.

At this point, John had been interviewed by the police at least four times, and he had taken two CVSA tests and an FBI-administered old-school polygraph test.

He failed them all.

I'm going to be completely upfront with you.

They're bullshit.

And the reason why I believe that they're bullshit is because they kept telling me that I was being dishonest, and I sat there and told them the truth.

This is the truth, and that thing does not tell you what the truth is.

John did not want to take another lie detector test, but the ISP still had some questions.

In his original interview, John said he sent Caitlin a good morning text at 4 a.m.

before he went to bed.

But when they checked the phone history, there was no record of this text.

But I distinctly remember, at the very least, typing this message, and I'm pretty positive that I push send.

I don't know how that

what that is all about but

this wasn't the only unusual thing about John's text messages.

He also selectively deleted some text between him and Caitlin, explaining that he'd done so by mistake.

They didn't press much harder because they wanted to focus on John's family property.

I don't know how she got there.

I don't I don't speculate how she got there because I don't

I try not to think about that shit.

I try not to put those images in my head.

I have no idea

what

she went through and I don't want to imagine what she went through.

Are you familiar with the area where they found her?

My dad has property

in Laurel, which you can take.

Because I know that it's on 129 or off 129 or something.

121.

121.

Yeah, and my dad would go that way occasionally, but usually, you know, because he lives in Ross, he takes a totally different way.

He said he rarely went to his father's property, and when he did, he used landmarks to navigate.

He was familiar with the route, but claimed he wasn't familiar enough to pick out the spot where Caitlin's remains were found.

Because he refused to take another lie detector test, they couldn't really be sure if he was telling the truth.

He was free to go, but John made a final plea before he left.

Look into the festival, festival because to me, the fact that it was so coincidental that this festival is going on during this time,

there's all these people walking around doing something.

It just to me seems very suspicious.

Detectives would work quietly on this case for the next six months before coming back to John.

This time, he agreed to a polygraph.

You didn't do well on that test.

I never did.

before i do that i never do

it's just it's so frustrating because i'm sitting here telling the truth and somebody's telling me that i'm a liar this is hell

because

polygraph didn't clear me so i'm i'm gonna have to keep coming back here and i'm gonna have to keep talking to him

all the while not going to jail because there's not going to be anything to send me there Once again, John failed the lie detector test, but he was right.

They did not have any evidence to arrest him, so the case seemingly stalled.

Then in 2015, David Markham, fed up with the lack of progress, publicly asked the Butler County Sheriff's Office to take over.

Sheriff Jones will take this over.

It's a step in the right direction.

There has been...

very little movement.

We need more help.

We need somebody

who's going to take this more serious.

Ten months after John's fourth failed lie detector test, and over four years after Caitlin went missing, the BCSO became the third agency to take on the case.

But would fresh eyes make a difference in this four-year-old cold case?

Detectives hoped so, and they came out swinging for John.

The first call he made after searching her apartment was to her father, and the first words out of his mouth were, Caitlin's missing.

They found it odd that that was his immediate assumption.

Of course I'm concerned.

Her dog shit all over her floor.

She would never let that happen.

She would never not answer my phone call.

All of these things are insanely out of the ordinary for her.

But it seems like my experience.

It seems like you almost know.

Something catastrophic has happened here.

Have you ever had a feeling?

I have all kinds of feelings.

Exactly.

They pushed John hard, confident that they would get him to crack.

They were the third agency to work on this case, and they had something to prove to the community and the Markhams.

I know you guys are having a lot of trouble understanding, you know, why I was worried.

Help us explain this, Joe.

Explain to me why your DNA is on the inside of a Kroger's bag that was wrapped around her skeletal remains.

I have no idea.

And why your DNA was on a black piece of plastic that her skeletal remains.

I have no idea.

That's not made-up stuff.

I didn't fucking do that, though, but I'm leaving.

I'm getting a lawyer.

Thank you.

John stormed out, but he came back and explained it away.

Of course he did.

Evidence in a bag and on a piece of plastic.

Whoever did this could have easily have grabbed a bag that I had used, or a bag that I had held, or have done anything.

Or I could be being set up, but I did not do this.

There are accounts of where I was that night, according to my mother, according to my stepfather, and according to my stepsister.

They were so confident that he would confess if they had strong enough evidence.

So, they made it up.

There were no DNA results.

It was all just a ploy because they just knew he would break at some point.

When John didn't confess, they started back at square one.

Over the next six years, they made a list of 20 suspects and cleared them all.

Then they started to pour over previous interviews by other investigators and found something that they had overlooked.

Two kids came forward in 2013,

right after Caitlin's remains were found, with an interesting story.

Me and Darren were sneaking out of his house at 2 o'clock because we heard of a party.

Darren and Kyle were outside for five minutes when they thought they were busted.

Two cars pulled up.

We thought they were police, so we hid.

Both teens dove for cover in a nearby bush.

I had my head peeked around the left side of it, expecting a fair Fairfield PD to come around, and the lights turned off to where we saw the vehicle pull into the driveway.

Garage door goes up, car pulls in, the other car pulls on the street right next to the driveway, garage door goes down.

They thought they were about to be busted.

Instead, they were left wondering what was even happening.

Darren's dad's going to wake up mad, blah, blah, blah.

But no, it's two suspicious cars with their lights off looking like they're sneaking into their own house.

Five to ten minutes later, the cars pulled up, still with their headlights off, and left the way they came.

This was interesting because Darren lived across the street from John Carter and saw his red Ford focus that night.

He also saw the driver of the blue car.

You know, long hair to his shoulders, pulled away, and then just like an unmanicured, you know, very messy hair.

and then just unmanicured facial hair.

Okay.

That description rang a bell for investigators.

One of John's inner circle back in 2011 was a man named John Palmerton, who fit the description.

It had been 11 years since Caitlin disappeared, but John Palmerton still had long, unkempt hair and unmanicured facial hair.

You work at Rick's that weekend?

Do you recall?

Yeah, yeah, like

I couldn't tell you Friday.

I can't remember.

Not sure about Friday.

But Saturday night, I did close.

What time did you actually leave Rick's that night?

You remember?

Couldn't tell you an exact time.

I know me and John Lumpkin, the person I was closing with, basically, since we had nothing to do, we got done close and went home, showered up, met back up, and went back up to Rick's to hang out with the bartenders and drinks.

Okay.

You say you was up here with John?

John Lumpkin

and L-U-M-P-K-I-N.

After Jonathan gave his alibi to detectives, they told him about the two cars witnessed that night at John Carter's house.

At that point in time, you were driving a blue car.

You owned a blue.

Dark blue

vehicle.

Does that sound familiar to you?

What?

That incident happened?

Yeah.

No.

Never happened?

I was at the bar.

I can tell you where I was at.

Sorry if those...

Details they gave you match me, but it has nothing to do with me.

And that's all I can tell you on that.

he stared blankly at detectives but denied the man in the blue car was him and when they asked him to take a polygraph test he refused he said they weren't accurate detectives let him walk and set out to disprove his alibi they went to find john lumpkin the man he said he took home that night like i told you before sir We also have the other person, Mr.

Ruffledge.

And

all I know is this:

if we work together,

that's who would have took me home.

Okay.

I mean, it's very highly unlikely.

Okay.

With that person,

very unlikely.

John Lumpkin didn't waste any time.

He flat out denied ever being with Jonathan Palmerton that night.

Just like that, Palmerton's alibi fell apart.

Lying to police?

That's a serious offense on its own.

But the real question wasn't why he lied.

It was who he was covering for.

Detectives started to think he was an accomplice, someone who helped get rid of Caitlin's body and hide it.

If Jonathan had lied for 12 years, what else was he keeping a secret?

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After years of investigation with no developments, Caitlin's father, David, pleaded with the sheriff's office to take over the investigation.

When they did, another six years passed, but they never stopped working.

The case finally took a turn when they uncovered a previously missed statement from teenagers.

With confirmed witness accounts, the police re-interviewed John Carter's close friend, Jonathan Palmerton.

He provided an alibi, but detectives disproved it.

Finally, after 12 years, they made the first arrest in the case.

They arrested Jonathan for perjury and brought him in to uncover what else he might be hiding.

Caitlin

went missing.

She was murdered.

That's the reality of it.

And there's a small group of people that could be responsible for it.

He's worked on this case, interviewed all these people.

He tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and interview people.

They just said, go talk to this guy.

Go talk to this person.

He goes to talk to him.

It's just on that night in question.

He goes to talk to him.

I don't remember anything doing that.

I wouldn't have done that with him.

He can't find anybody to back you up.

And we're not talking about some like penny anti-crime.

We're talking about homicide.

We're talking about murder.

It wasn't just John Lumpkin who said it never happened.

Other people at the bar that night said they never saw him.

Jonathan tried to explain, but the detective stopped him.

In a firm voice, he leaned in closer and told him that if he were covering for John Carter to just come clean and he wouldn't face any charges.

Yeah, but if I had anything, why would I lie to save his ass?

Because I don't give a shit about

him getting away with something or something compared to me losing my fucking family.

Well, then what happened that night?

I don't know.

That's the thing.

I wasn't there.

I didn't have to dispose of a body.

If I had, I would have taken that immunity plea in a fucking second.

I can guarantee you that.

What Jonathan didn't know was a lot.

But also, that search warrants were being served at that very moment.

They slapped down something that they found at John's house, something they thought offered a glimpse into the mind of a murderer.

It was a poem.

Definitely

conflicting, kind of like some kind of personality disorder kind of thing, like

someone

pushing and pulling with a darker side of themselves, so to speak.

The poem reads like someone arguing with themselves.

Deep down, I love her.

You want to kill her.

But I love her.

She must die.

I can't kill her.

Yes, you can.

No.

Yes.

How do you talk me into all these things?

I'm just that good.

But you're bad.

I know.

How do I kill you?

You can't.

You're right.

About what?

Nothing.

Just then, the detective slammed a photo down on the table.

Is that her fucking teeth?

Yeah.

Jonathan had a visceral reaction.

He looked everywhere, but in the direction of that picture.

Deep down, I love her.

You want to kill her, but I love her.

I mean, it's not...

It's not...

It's not song lyrics, John.

I mean, this is the way she ended up.

His demeanor changed.

He wasn't smugly answering questions anymore.

Detectives thought he was about to crack, so they laid it on thicker.

I will tell you this.

On June the 20th,

correction, July 20th, 2011, John Carter's mother, Karen,

Caitlin, went to the GE credit union.

Okay?

Yeah.

Went to go in to get a credit card because Karen knew that

they were going to Colorado.

She She was going to make sure,

being Karen, that Caitlin and John didn't end up out there flat ass broke.

She goes, and Karen said this, well, if I co-sign for this credit card, you got to take my son with you.

Okay?

Karen laughed.

The lady of GE Credit Union laughed.

Guess who didn't laugh?

Kayla.

Kaitlyn, no expression.

Let's go to Friday night at the festival.

Michelle Feist, Feist, she goes, they were arguing over him spending money, being John Carter, on money they didn't have.

Okay?

Jeff Rutlich, and I quote, it looked like they were going to break up.

One day later, she's murdered.

One day later, she's dead.

That very night, Brad Van Bargen,

he's sitting with them.

She's always friendly to Van Bargen.

They didn't talk.

Caitlin, he said there was something wrong with Caitlin that night.

She was going places.

She had things she wanted to go do.

Not

sit around and smoke weed all damn day and wait for her boyfriend to fucking get down to the little overing pizzas.

So if you've been manipulated, if you've been asked to do something, now's the time.

As far as I knew, I thought everything was fine between them.

That's why I never suspected he would fucking have done this.

He had an obvious physical reaction to seeing the photos of Caitlin's remains.

But all they did when they pressured him was to convince him that John Carter did it.

He still maintained that he was not involved.

All I can tell you is that that's where it was, and I'm sorry that apparently that they don't fucking remember me

as far as that goes.

He finally offered to take a polygraph, but detectives didn't need him to.

Because with his story in pieces, all roads led back to John Carter.

It took over a month after John Palmerton's arrest for the sheriff's office to finalize all their evidence before arresting John Carter.

They hoped to confront him with their circumstantial evidence, but...

David, you've been indicted.

For what?

Murder.

Okay, but what evidence?

There's nothing.

You're thinking of there's evidence that's got to be fingerprints.

No, I mean...

I mean, there's things called circumstantial evidence.

Okay.

The whole story about the unknown suspect or the individual who was at the

festival following you and Caleb to her house.

No one's believing that.

Okay.

They didn't believe it when you first came out with it.

Okay, but that was just like a thought.

I mean, like, you asked me my theories and I gave you my thought, but I don't know.

You told me

that question.

That's the question you gave to the 911 operator day one.

Okay.

Okay.

So that means that

I thought maybe that could be a possibility, but I'm not saying that's my story.

I don't know what the fuck happened.

I have no idea what happened.

Maybe my stories are different sometimes here at the end.

Sometimes?

John.

Your story has evolved constantly over the past almost 12 years.

Because it's been 12 fucking years.

Yeah, but your story

is never the same story twice.

That's the best part about all this.

It's never the same story twice.

What are you talking about?

Okay, that's not, that's the unknown suspect following me thing, okay, fine.

What I have been telling you and what I've been trying to say is I have no clue what happened to her.

What I, what I did,

I said, okay, then, then we're done.

I'm fine.

I'm going to need to get my lawyer.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes, because you'll be able to.

Can I please have a phone call?

Yes, when you get to the jail.

John shut down the interview in six minutes.

When word of his arrest spread through the community, Caitlin's friends and family felt like they always knew.

This is where I'm not sure.

Just in the last week or so, I wasn't sure if she really wanted to do the trip.

I know she didn't want to do it with John.

He was no help.

She didn't want to babysit him.

She had made those comments to other people.

Almost sort of like your marriage.

Yeah,

pretty much.

He didn't do a thing.

I mean, he's a pizza delivery guy.

He wants to stay up till three or four in the morning and sleep till two in the afternoon and deliver pieces for four hours.

So that's his ambition, getting high.

And she was done with that.

Caitlin was getting ready to graduate college.

She was cleaning up.

She was turning into a young woman and really mature and making

some really mature decisions for herself.

I very specifically remember a time when she talked to me about her concern about being engaged to John, that she

seemed to me to be very uncomfortable,

that it was going too fast, and

he wanted more sexually from her, and she wasn't comfortable with it.

And she at one point in time communicated that she was not physically attracted to him anymore because he had gained so much weight and was not taking care of himself.

She was physically disgusted by him.

Like she told me she was grossed out because he would smell.

It was a sharp discomfort that she did not want to be with him sexually.

And we were talking again about her move to Colorado, and I said something to the effect of, like, well, what about your wedding plans?

Are you going to get married in Colorado?

Is that what you guys are planning?

And she kind of waffled and got a little cagey, and she said, I'm not sure if we're going to get married.

I don't know if that's still going to happen.

Caitlin was having serious second thoughts about her future, especially with John.

And she shared her feelings with her friends.

They all saw the writing on the wall.

I think she was fed up with him.

I think she was tired.

You know, she's breaking it off with him.

She's going to call Roger by herself.

But I always felt and knew she was going to leave him.

I saw her positioning herself to leave him.

And I don't know how he did it, but I think that he sensed the relationship was ending.

And I think that he

not to editorialize, but I think he was a little coward bitch baby.

And rather than like be abandoned, I think he thought, why can't I just do this?

And no one's going to suspect me.

And all of us suspected him right away.

All of us knew that he did it.

John Carter was arrested and charged with unclassified murder and murder during the commission of an assault.

Here's the theory the prosecution put against his two murder charges.

Caitlin had been coming to a tough decision in the weeks, maybe months, leading up to her murder.

She was about to graduate and start her career, a career career that she'd worked on so hard.

John, on the other hand, was a layabout, sleeping all day only to wake up and deliver a few pizzas every night.

Typical Redditor loser.

He didn't have a degree, he didn't have a career, he lived with his parents.

He just didn't have any money or plans or prospects.

Didn't seem to care to either.

So many people like that around these days.

Entitled baby losers, expecting someone else to pay for their life.

Anyway, that night at the festival, Caitlin was pissed he was wasting money on raffle tickets, like poor dumb people do.

They got into a heated argument about something John said didn't happen.

At that moment, she made her decision.

That was it.

She was done.

She wasn't going to let John dictate her life anymore.

She wasn't going to put up with his shit.

She didn't want to move to Colorado with him.

The next night, she was so preoccupied with this pending breakup that she couldn't even enjoy hanging out with Von Bargen.

That's why she was kind of rude to him when he came over.

After he left, she likely told John she wanted to break up.

That's when little bitch boy John likely snapped and killed her, getting the scratches on his neck near his rainbow tattoo in the process.

They never came from an electric razor.

They certainly didn't come from working down at the mill.

Caitlin's neighbor neighbor remembered being startled awake that night.

It was most certainly, stop it!

It was stop it!

And a name or a word, stop it!

And then I heard the,

that was it.

And then the,

and that went on for like maybe 10, 15 seconds.

It was weird.

It definitely caught my attention, and after that, it was silent.

Whether he meant to or not, it doesn't matter.

He decided to cover it up.

He spent the next few minutes faking the text conversation with Caitlin while trying to come up with a plan in his big dumb head.

When he went to the party to establish his alibi, people noticed how distant he was.

You're not as good of an actor as you think you are.

It's a lot harder than it looks.

He absentmindedly stirred the fire out back while he was most likely burning some sort of evidence.

He left the party at around the same time Jonathan Palmerton got off work at Rick's tavern.

When the two teens saw those cars, it was John and Jonathan.

John was gathering the black landscaping plastic to wrap Caitlin's body in, and he was pressing play on the next part of his alibi.

The episodes of White Collar on his computer.

This white collar show looks like utter trash, by the way.

It's on USA.

Who watches shows on USA?

Probably the same people who buy lottery tickets come to think of it.

But detectives found evidence of him looking up the episode synopsis the next day.

Almost like he had to memorize it.

His computer activity was the only thing that put him at home, and it seemed to be fabricated.

Phone records showed that not only did Caitlin's phone go dark shortly after midnight, but so did John's.

For hours.

This is the timeframe he should have been home, but detectives think he was wrapping her body, putting a bag over her head, and transporting her to that dump site on the way to his dad's property.

After that was done, he went home, cleaned up, and deleted any incriminating text messages, but he forgot to send that good morning text.

The next day, John may have expected Caitlin's no-call, no show at work to have raised alarms.

But when it didn't, he had to be the one to report her missing to avoid more suspicion.

This was the crucial misstep in his plan.

His immediate assumption that she was missing seemed extreme, and his theory about the festival goers being responsible seemed like an obvious misdirect to police,

who've seen this kind of thing before, at least once, you know.

It was something a guilty person would say.

So while it seemed like the police were doing nothing, they were actually slowly building a case against John Carter.

Additional circumstantial evidence added up over time.

John spoke at a vigil for Caitlin, saying some peculiar things.

There was a candlelight vigil after she went missing that was held around her birthday.

Megan and I, after the fact, being like, that was a weird thing for him to say.

Like, she would have wanted this.

She would have wanted to, like, be here for her birthday.

She would have wanted to, like, celebrate her birthday with all these people who, like, clearly give a shit.

Is this right after she went missing?

He's all over the news talking about it, talking about her in the past tense, which was weird.

Uh, and we all noticed that.

A suspect referring to a missing person in the past tense is always a bad sign.

It implies he knows she's gone.

Maybe that's why he never helped with any of the searches.

Then again,

he was lazy.

The very first search, and this left a very bad taste in my mouth, very first search I went out on, he was there.

He was very monotone,

very non-committal to the search.

And he came out to give us a pep talk.

He was out there searching.

And he said, I'm sorry I can't participate, but I have a bad knee.

And I thought to myself, if that was somebody I love, there's no way a knee would stop me from being out there.

I'd be out there with a machete chopping down every branch.

I'd be out there

with something digging out underneath every bush.

But he would just very monotone,

one note, sorry, I can't help you.

I have a bad knee.

But he never missed an opportunity to play the grieving fiancé.

Victimhood is a very useful commodity these days.

Just like he'd be fine, and then it's like the cameras were on him, or he had to speak publicly, all of a sudden he'd be bawling his eyes out.

When the whole time you've been hanging out with him or you've been around him and he's been acting like everything was completely fine.

When he wasn't playing the grieving fiancé, he was making his way through all the other women in the extended circle of friends, hitting on each one of them.

I just found it strange that John had gone through several females like in a short amount of time after his girlfriend or fiancé, high school sweetheart had been missing.

He went through me, then heather and then even caitlin's best friend amber

and he had mentioned to all three of us that he's always had a crush on us while he was with caitlin and that just struck the chord with me but the results of the search warrants really sealed the deal at john's mom's house the authorities found black landscaping plastic in the garden shed out back an item bought in bulk and most likely kept for years but But more damaging than that, they found a lot of odd poems and writings from John.

The most damning, perhaps, was a single line scrawled in black Sharpie on his closet door.

I slit your wrists with the key to your heart.

To further cement their theory that the soft-spoken, effeminate John Carter had a violent side, They included a recorded argument between him and his ex.

Get a load of this.

Stop talking to me, please.

I have got to take my medicine.

Yeah, and it's a good thing you've calmed down now that you've pushed my buttons.

No, I haven't.

I have 5,000 things to do too, sweetheart.

Welcome to my life.

Yeah, you pushed a shitload of my buttons.

Thank you.

Not my problem.

Not my problem.

You went to sleep early.

Then your pain isn't my problem anymore.

Wow.

Wow.

Wow.

You need to stop while you're ahead.

You need to stop while you're ahead.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, go ahead.

No, because I don't think about you.

Because I don't give a shit about lighters, Sarah.

I want you to stop acting like a fucking asshole every fucking day.

I got everything taken care of.

You're so proud of me.

I got the Marina out, and I told you I'm not.

You know.

And yes, you stop.

No, I'm not.

Yes, you are.

The perjury charges against Jonathan Palmerton would later be dropped to make him available as a state's witness.

Maybe it was Jonathan as a witness or the mountain of circumstantial evidence, but John would never make it to trial.

Instead, he would accept a plea deal like the pussy he was.

In exchange for pleading guilty, he would only be charged with involuntary manslaughter.

In June of 2024, two months shy of 13 years since Caitlin's disappearance, John Carter pled guilty, admitting he accidentally caused her death during an assault.

A little bit of relief, but boy,

I was shaking.

I was so

I was literally shaking.

Sitting there, I was so mad.

I wasn't shocked that there was a plea.

I was shocked at how little it carries.

God forbid he doesn't get anything but three years, you know.

That's going to really feel like a letdown if he doesn't get time.

Then I'm not going to feel like there's justice.

He was sentenced to a maximum of three years in prison.

You see, the statute of limitations had run out on the other charges like abuse of a corpse and disposal of the body, or he would have had a longer sentence.

That statute is something David Markham hopes to work with lawmakers to change.

It was all over, but how do you have closure?

with just a three-year sentence.

That is why there's no closure.

I still do not know

the whole story.

And not that I would have believed him because he's lied for 13 years, but he's offered no explanation, hasn't even tried.

To me, that just shows his character.

I do respect and understand the prosecutor's office.

It would have been a tough case, just a lot of circumstantial evidence.

Everybody wants to see some hardcore pictures or hardcore evidence to, you know, beyond reasonable doubt.

So I think this is going to be rough on John, and I'm not concerned with that.

In the days following, Caitlin's loved ones gathered one last time.

Not for a search, not for a plea for justice, but to finally say goodbye.

As they stood together, a prayer was read.

A prayer for peace for a soul taken too soon.

And Lord, give us the perseverance.

to continue honoring Caitlin tomorrow and for as long as we live.

And then something unexpected happened.

A butterfly fluttered past the crowd, landing gently on David's shoulder.

She liked butterflies, and I don't know, they just, there's been days that I've had bad days in the early on times and the butterfly would come and fly around me and I don't know, like, oh, my baby.

21-year-old Caitlin Markham was on the edge of something new.

It was the beginning of the rest of her life.

We've heard it so many times, these young people taken by violence.

She spent her whole life pushing towards a future that she could shape for herself.

But sometimes moving forward means leaving things behind.

And some people can't stand being left behind.

John Carter, the man who had been at the center of the case from the start, the man who cried on television, The man who begged for help, the man who swore he had nothing to do with her disappearance and her death, was guilty.

Guilty of a crime of desperation, of fear, of losing the one person who defined his whole life.

We may never know exactly what happened to Caitlin Markham that night, but we have a pretty good imagination.

And we've seen this kind of character

before.

Also, we know that Caitlin Markham wanted a future, and John made sure she never got one.

When the obligation of their relationship and John's expectation started to weigh Caitlin down, she tried to break herself free, but it came at a cost.

The cost was

everything,

including herself.

John Carter was never free, not after that night.

His sentence may have been three years, but the real punishment?

That started long before his arrest.

The toughest prisons aren't made of bars, they're made of choices that you can't take back,

relationships you can't escape,

and the guilt that follows you wherever you go.

That's gonna do it for yet another sword and scale.

Thank you so much for joining us and for being a plus member.

There's been a little bit of,

I don't know, talk about my apology a few episodes ago.

A lot of people online, especially on Facebook, love the drama, and they just can't wait to find out how I got canceled in order to solicit such an apology.

Well,

you're just a bunch of fucking idiots, you know that?

You're a bunch of bozos.

Because the apology was sincere.

It was coming from me, and it was because I felt bad about my pattern of thinking that I recognized was devolving into something ugly.

You see, people are individuals and you should treat them that way all the time.

You don't put them into groups and label them and, you know,

expect certain behaviors from them like some of the racists in our comment section.

Those people are cunts.

Think it through, asshole.

What if you're that little boy, fresh into the world with lots of expectations and hopes?

Maybe not such a great environment, maybe not such a great set of parents.

Do you really want to instill that hatred, that racism

into that little boy?

You really want to make him into what you think he is?

No.

It's stupid.

It's ignorant.

That goes for any group, whether it's blacks or immigrants or whatever.

Thinking that way is a spiral into hate, into division, into

just a pure shitty garbage world.

And we're already living in a pretty garbage world, so I don't want to add to it.

Treat individuals as individuals every day.

That's it.

That's all I meant.

So

debate that if you want, but leave me the fuck out of it.

I said all I needed to say.

And

that's that.

Have a good one, and we'll see you here next week.

Stay safe.

It's time to head back to school and forward to your future with Carrington College.

For over 55 years, we've helped train the next generation of healthcare professionals.

Apply now to get hands-on training from teachers with real-world experience.

And as few as nine months, you you could start making a difference in healthcare.

Classes start soon in Pleasant Hill, San Leandro, and San Jose.

Visit Carrington.edu to see what's next for you.

Visit carrington.edu slash SCI for information on program outcomes.

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