Episode 282

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Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences.

Listener discretion is advised.

She said, I'm going to the deep end of hell.

And she said,

it's all over now and it's done.

There's a new show coming, so stick around after the music and you'll find out more.

This is season two, episode 282 of Sword and Scale.

A show that reveals that the worst monsters

are real.

Well, I lied.

Not about the show that's coming up.

It is coming up.

But about telling you about the show that's coming up.

Because I'm not going to tell you anything.

I'm going to keep it a secret this time.

You're not going to find out a damn thing until it comes out March 3rd.

In a family where chaos reigns, reigns, it's easy to lose sight of the cracks forming beneath the surface.

Born into a world of addiction, mental illness, and unspeakable secrets, one can grow so accustomed to the madness that it becomes invisible.

Each day brings a new crisis, a new fire to put out.

And amidst the smoke and shadows, it's impossible to notice the creeping darkness closing in.

The familiar feels like survival, until it's not.

Like the proverbial frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat goes unnoticed.

There's too much to manage, calming the parent's paranoid delusions, steering a sibling away from another destructive path, trying to hold it all together.

The storms are so familiar that they barely register anymore.

And while tending to each fresh disaster, something far more dangerous is below.

It's a slow, insidious bubbling.

And before there's any time to escape, the water has reached a dangerous boil.

So, when I started this podcast, I didn't realize I was actually starting a small business.

Yikes.

There's nothing small about a small business.

You're working all of the time.

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In 2007, 21-year-old Lauren Kukla found herself shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional well-being.

Though she had small children of her own, their needs aren't what I'm talking about here.

Lauren was not only caring for her immediate household, but also managing the endless conflicts between her late schizophrenic mother and her four older siblings, none of whom could seem to get their lives together for some reason.

Conveniently, they all lived in the same area near Macomb, Michigan, and Lauren was stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years.

Though her siblings' houses were chaotic, messy, and filled with conflict, Lauren's house was different.

Though she was young, she and her family lived a white picket picket fence kind of life compared to her two older sisters and two older brothers.

Her sister Elizabeth or Lizzie was on drugs and had already lost custody of her children.

And her sister, 30-year-old Jennifer, or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings, was walking that same tightrope.

How Lauren turned out to be a normal, functioning member of society after growing up in a household like this is really a mystery.

On Saturday, February 3rd, 2007, all while trying to juggle her career and her young children's needs, Lauren got a call from Jenny.

As usual, her oldest sister was having a meltdown and needed help.

She had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Kukla, or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister, and Lisa Fabry, the neighbor growing up, as a loss of F-A-B-B-R-I

had led her to to believe that they were going to have her kids taken away.

They were going to call the CPS.

As far as I know at that time, that was a truthful statement.

Lizzie denied it when I went to

her place of employment later.

At that time, I could see her saying something like that because she said it to me before.

plenty of times in the past couple years.

She said she hates Jenny.

She wishes she would just clean up her act and blah, blah, blah,

whatever.

Because Lizzie got her kids taken away.

And she thought that she was fighting for them, but she wasn't fighting for them because she was always doing crack and shit like that.

So she wasn't really working at it.

But she wanted anybody to blame that she could.

So now she wants, I could see her wanting some kind of revenge or wanting Jenny to feel the same pain as her.

Lizzie wasn't threatening to report Jenny to CPS because she was genuinely concerned about her nieces.

She just hated her sister and wanted to see Jenny lose her kids too.

Nice, right?

You could hear that she was afraid that her kids may be taken away.

She wanted to make sure that they were, you know.

Do you believe she sounded intoxicated at the time?

No.

I didn't hear.

I mean, Jenny was an alcoholic as is, so I couldn't tell the difference either way.

You know what I mean?

She wasn't a stupid drunk kid by that time.

Okay.

So when she called, I know that she she

you could tell that that she just wanted to make sure that the girls were, I mean, that the house was taken care of because she did not want to lose her kids.

She was concerned.

The whole family knew Jenny was an alcoholic, but her habits had gotten worse over the prior months.

Finances were tight, and she was spending any extra money she had on beer and all of her free time drinking it.

The kids, three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being cared for properly, and the trailer they lived in was an absolute disaster, as you can imagine.

To top it all off, they didn't even have running water.

How long were the pipes frozen for?

She had said something to me on Thursday about it.

So just a few days.

Yeah.

Frozen or just shut up?

Frozen.

Everything worked.

The heat worked and everything.

It said the furnace broke the day before and Al came and fixed it that day.

Al.

was Jenny's boyfriend.

He lived nearby and the two were still friends.

They were waiting.

Did your sister maintain that trailer on her own with water?

Yes, for the most part, yeah.

She kept the heat on and kept the water on.

I think there was one time in the spring that she had her gas turned off and she called me.

It was after, it was fall because my mom had already passed away.

She called me and she said, she said, you got to call grandma.

And now I'm the go-between, between grandma because I took it upon myself to make sure everything was taken care of with my mom and taken care of with grandma.

Everybody kind of looked at me as the one who would help them if they needed something from grandma.

So she asked me, I need money for rent, I need money to fix the car, I need money to get my license back, I need money to, you know, all this stuff.

And all I could think was, Jenny, you got to get clean.

You're drinking, you know, or not.

I can help you.

And grandma goes, I wish I didn't give her a lecture.

I said, you have to give her a lecture every time.

Otherwise, she doesn't know how you feel, grandma.

I said, no, this is your fault, you know.

And

I just,

she did have it shut off a couple times, but not to the extent where the girls didn't have anywhere else to go or, you know, couldn't take care of themselves and stuff and they always had food in the fridge and stuff like that so

unfortunately food in the fridge is not the only criteria cps looks for when deciding whether a home is safe for children it looked like jenny might actually get a visit from a social worker and it wouldn't be the first time cps had taken her kids before but she knew that if it happened again she might not be able to get them back lauren didn't want to be at her family's beck and call.

She knew Jenny's situation was largely because of her own unwillingness to get help for her alcoholism and whatever else was going on in her drama-filled life.

Her chief concern were her two nieces, Jenny's eight-year-old daughter, Alexa,

and five-year-old daughter, Ashley.

So, Lauren, the family crisis manager that she was, gathered some friends, a guy named Russell and a woman named Jessica.

She offered them 10 bucks for their time and drove them over to her sister's house to help her clean it up.

So

then I went to Al's house to pick her up and she

went to Al Vanderboss, which was the mayor

where she was at.

He lives in a trailer park as well.

Like they're all within two block radius.

So I drove over there after I asked Russell and Jessica.

They wanted to make 10 bucks.

I asked Stacey too, but she said she didn't want to go in the house because she knew it was too dirty.

She wanted to get upset.

Okay, so you picked up Jenny and the two kids?

Yeah.

No, I picked up Jennifer.

I think the kids stayed there with Al.

And I had Russell or Jessica in the car with me.

Okay, so you picked up Jennifer at Al, what's the last name?

Vander

Vander Boss, I think.

Vanderbos in the statement, I think.

Vanderboss, I'm not sure.

Vanderboss?

Yeah.

And is that she boyfriend?

Just ex-boyfriend, still friends, kind of thing

of Jenny right?

Yeah

okay uh kids kids are lost there?

Yeah

uh she got in the car she was acting fine.

She just said you know let's go right now.

We'll get this done.

I said okay Jenny, you know we have a couple hours or whatever.

We'll get it done.

She was upset.

I remember her saying something.

She was upset because she thinks Lisa and Lizzie were going to call.

Where did she get that?

She said that when she was over at Elizabeth's house earlier that day, she was on the phone with Lisa

and

Lisa had told her something that triggered a memory

of how

it's possible that she may have been hypnotized

into being a bad person and that like

Jennifer was she said that she

Lisa said something that triggered a memory of some kind into her realizing that she may have been hypnotized during her teenage years.

Jenny was probably grasping at straws, trying to find reasons why her life turned out as terribly as it did, and why she couldn't seem to be a good parent like her little sister, Lauren.

Gee, I wonder why.

Being, you know, hypnotized is an answer that takes the blame off of Jenny herself.

It's one of the things that alcoholics do.

Just trust me on that.

Though she wasn't actually hypnotized, Jenny hadn't had an easy life.

Sure, her situation was a result of her own decisions, but decisions are often influenced by past experiences.

And Jenny's life had been rather traumatic.

Jenny always had problems.

She believed that she was worthless.

She believed, I mean, she was raped and everything else.

Her mom didn't take care of her.

You know, her, like, our mom was

on meds a lot.

And she probably thought you know for some reason I'm not being taken care of because you know my mom brought this horrible man into her life you know what I mean like she just she just kept getting different kinds of thoughts about that

so

um

when uh back to you told me the other day your your natural father was convicted of uh rape of jennifer

um at what

at what age like how old i think it was over a long period of time i think from like 12 to 15.

12 to 15.

She was molested from

Joseph, her father's brother, Robert.

He was

mentally impaired.

And she told me that he molested her as well growing up, younger ages.

That the neighbor at the residence that I live in now, one of the old neighbors that lived there, like their nephew or something, molested her as well.

She was raped,

just I mean, walking down the street kind of thing, she told me before it.

My My other sister, I remember, she was raped.

She got pulled into a van

and raped.

I mean, they had a pretty rough summer.

Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to pull something of a life together.

She had full custody of her two young daughters, had a place for them to live, and worked as a manager for McDonald's.

She wasn't addicted to hard drugs like her sister Lizzie, but alcoholism can be more difficult to beat because it's normalized in society.

I mean, try going out.

Just going out on the weekend.

Try to do something.

And not be around alcohol.

It's impossible.

Plus, you know, no one gives you a side eye if they see you sipping on a can of beer.

How would they know it's your twelfth drink?

On the other hand, if you have a needle hanging out of your arm like a lot of the residents of Portland, someone might actually call the cops on you.

Probably not a Democrat though.

Anyways, Lauren, Jenny, and their posse of helpers arrived at the trailer and got to work.

So

you guys wanted to get Bibles the whole time the kids weren't here?

No, the whole time the kids were at Al's house.

And Jenny told me, go pick up some more beer from Al's and bring it back before you go to the store.

And we went to Al's house and I grabbed the beers and we had

seven or eight.

Okay, and how many of you guys were having some before that?

I didn't have any.

She was

they didn't have any.

She Al had said that she had some before.

Okay.

And I don't really know.

And she had some at her house too, and she drank a couple while we were cleaning for the first like hour and a half or whatnot.

We went to maternal bottles that she had.

I mean, she had some in her shed, she had in her sink, she had them all over the house.

So we were trying to clear the clutter, make some money for garbage bags, light bulbs, water, because her pipes were frozen.

So we could, you know, heat it up or wash whatever.

And

so we went to the store, we came back, and we just continued to clean and we just

yeah all of them

like I said we had forgotten to bring her that beer so she was really happy when we got back because she had her beer again she's like I'm gonna sit make sure you get something we brought her some more beer and

at that time we just finished up cleaning Jessica was

getting lazy playing with the dogs or whatever and then me and Russell were in the girls bedroom finishing out vacuuming and stuff and then I went and did the bathroom myself and did the, me and Russell did the back bedroom.

And Jenny was doing the kitchen and the dishes and stuff, trying to get everything out of the kitchen.

At this point, Jenny was becoming more paranoid with each beer.

After the others left, Jenny confided in her sister that she feared they too would call CPS on her since they had seen the state of the house firsthand.

Jessica might know because I know Jenny was afraid that Jessica was going to call the CPS because of something that she said, which I don't know what she said.

I have no idea.

She's like, she's like, you know, they're going to call.

They probably think I'm, you know, a horrible mom and all this stuff.

And I don't know.

Jessica was afraid Jessica was going to call CPSS.

Yeah, she was afraid Russell and Jessica were going to call too.

I said, why would they do that when they were here helping us, you know?

And

she was afraid that they were going to do something too.

So I'm like,

did either Russell or Jessica

do it all?

Never.

What a mess.

We better call CPS.

No, in fact, in the car when we were going to ale's house and I told her that she was afraid.

She told me not to tell you guys, but i was like you're not going to call the cps right and jessica's like no you know i'm taken away from my mom too you know she's like you know i got taken away from my mom too and you know i would never do that to you and you know i want to help these kids she was on the way to ale's to pick up the girls she was telling me this stuff and jenny had told me right before we left like they were getting in the car and she was like just make sure they don't call and i think she was really fearful that they would call so you guys left to go get the girls yeah and brought the girls back we were we left to go get the girls and i I helped them start getting ready.

And all of a sudden, Jenny showed up.

Yeah.

How'd she get there?

She ran.

She's two streets away.

And she thought, that's kind of weird to me because she thought we left a cell phone there, which I asked that, asked her if that cell phone twice was hers because I knew she lost hers.

But I know she had a boost mobile and this was a Motorola.

In fact, the phone is in my car right now.

But I said, you know, I don't know.

where that phone came from.

And she's like, I was like, I moved it.

I put it on the end table like three times, Jenny.

I even asked you if it was yours.

And she's like, oh okay yeah but why would she went over there

it's possible

I didn't turn it on or anything it doesn't turn on but I'm sure it works but um it just seems it strikes me as odd that she would run all the way over there even though we were taking the kids back there you know what I'm saying

so just to summarize all that Lauren and the others left Jenny at the trailer while they went to pick up Jenny's two daughters Alexa and Ashley Jenny must have been suspicious that they were conspiring against her to help CPS take away the kids and literally ran several blocks to the house the girls were staying at under the guise of returning a cell phone.

So I think that she was even fearful at that time that I would try to take the kids.

And

which I don't understand, but whatever.

So we, Jenny got in the back.

I have a the third roll seating station wagon.

She got in the back with Blexa.

And the first thing she said when she opened the back and I was already in the car and Ashley was in, I have a like a booster seat seat for her.

This was big enough for my daughter and big enough for her.

And

she's like, Lauren, why would you ask Lexa if she does, if she even liked me?

I'm like, I didn't say that.

And I was like, Lexa, did you ask her that?

Like, I was being calm with Lexa, like how you talk to kids, you know.

And she's like, she's just quiet, you know, she didn't say anything.

And then she's like, Jenny goes, are you lying, Lexa?

And, you know, not angry, not angry.

She was more concerned for, you know, why she would lie to her.

And

I said, Jenny, I didn't say that.

And I said, I talked to him earlier this week when they were at my house.

And I said that, you know, mama tries her boss, you know.

And that was the end of the conversation.

And we drove home, and the kids were just in the middle of the day.

What about did Lexa actually ask her about her?

No, I wasn't, I mean, I got into the conversation.

There was never an answer to the question because you asked her.

She never answered that question.

Jenny asked her, and Lexa never answered.

She never answered the question, but I know she was quiet.

And Lexa had a tendency to do stuff like that, just kind of tattle or like say, you know, mix up the words or something, and the Jenny would get not upset, but she would get like,

why do you have to, because you have to lie to me kind of thing, you know?

And

so we drove home, everything was fine, and we were, you know, I had the radio on, whatever, but she opened a door and she went in, and then the girls, you know, they went in right ahead of me.

I don't know how we got mixed up, but anyway, and I was like, no, stop, because they weren't taking off their shoes and stuff.

I was showing her door to take off their shoes and put their coats and stuff, you know.

And I said, they're like, wow, and they're looking around.

They're all excited because the house was so much cleaner cleaner than it was before, like literally 300 times better.

Right.

And I mean, even.

They probably weren't used to having a place to hang their coats and

they weren't used to.

And they yearned so, I don't want to cry, but they yearned so bad to have that kind of home, that home.

When they were at my house and stuff, they knew, they knew the difference.

They were playing with my kids on

Thursday night.

They loved it.

I was teaching her how to wash from top to bottom in the bath kind of thing.

You have to rinse it all out.

Left.

I was in there,

brushing my teeth and stuff.

I was like, you got to get ready for bed.

I was just just thinking in my head, how does she not know this stuff at, you know, almost nine years old and she doesn't know how to take care of her own body yet.

Right.

Well, I mean, yeah, I know it was a frozen pipes, but other than that, I mean.

Other than the frozen pipes, the group had successfully gotten the trailer up to par.

Lauren thought she'd fixed the problem.

Surely Jenny had no reason to be concerned anymore.

Lauren went home that night to take care of her own household and planned to check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day, right after her shift at the local family restaurant.

She expected to see Jenny lounging around, enjoying the day with her girls in their newly cleaned trailer.

Lauren certainly hadn't pictured herself dialing 911.

So, when I started this podcast, I didn't realize I was actually starting a small business.

Yikes.

There's nothing small about a small business.

You're working all of the time.

Thankfully, though, I have a partner with all the tools that I need to be successful.

You may have heard of them.

Their name is Shopify.

Shopify's point-of-sale system is a unified command center for your retail business.

It brings together in-store and online operations across up to a thousand locations.

Imagine being able to guarantee that shopping is always convenient.

Endless aisle, ship to customer, buy online, pick up in-store.

All these things are made simpler to customers so they can shop how they want.

And staff have all the tools to close the sale every time.

And let's face it, acquiring new customers is expensive.

With Shopify POS, you can keep shoppers coming back with personalized experiences and first-party data that give marketing teams a competitive edge.

In fact, it's proven.

Based on a report from EY, businesses on Shopify POS see real results, like 22% better total cost of ownership and benefits equivalent to an 8.9% uplift in sales on average relative to the market set surveyed.

So if you have a retail or online business, then I'll tell you what, Shopify is a fantastic partner to have on your side.

Get all the big stuff for your small business right with Shopify.

Sign up for your $1 a month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash sword and scale.

All one word.

Just go to shopify.com slash swordandscale and sign up.

You'll thank me later.

You will.

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21-year-old Lauren Kukla had just cleaned up another family crisis.

One of her sisters, Lizzie, had already lost custody of her children, and her oldest sister, Jennifer, was about to meet the same fate.

That was until Lauren rallied a group together to help Jennifer tidy up her house in preparation for a CPS visit.

The next day, Sunday, February 4th, Lauren planned to drive over and check in on her sister, but she was wholly unprepared for what she'd find.

Did you work?

What time was 11 or 10?

I worked from 10.

I was there at 9.50 to all the way to 5 o'clock, 5.15.

After work, Lauren picked picked up her kids and drove over to Jenny's trailer to check in.

When she got there, the front door was hanging open.

This immediately struck Lauren as odd.

After all, it was winter

in Michigan.

I pulled up, I walked up, you know, I called the name because the door was open, like I said.

So you called her name?

I called her name, and I was on the phone with my friend Jason at the time, telling him all about how, you know, how my sister was being annoying, you know, I snipe or whatever, you know, and how she's pissing me off, so I'm going over there right now to see if she can find her phone in my car or whatever and um he's like i'm like okay hold on one second because the door's open and all the lights are off he's like okay and then i call her name and then he was i was like okay anyway i'll you know i'll call you later i hung out with him and then jay comes to the door dressed like a hobo and like in a skirt jeans and sweaters and whatever.

I don't know, I don't even know exactly what her sh tops were, but I know jeans and the khaki skirt were on the bottom.

And just thinking that was really weird.

And

that's not what my mom used to dress sometimes when she was being stupid.

What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid is that her mother used to layer odd unmatching pieces of clothing during bad mental health episodes.

Increasingly Jenny was starting to act more and more like her mother.

She would ramble on about nonsensical things.

have bouts of extreme paranoia and just, you know, act erratic.

Now Lauren could see a visual representation of the transformation that had been taking place for years as Jenny's mental health quietly declined.

She had a khaki shirt layered over a pair of jeans.

Her hair was disheveled, and like Lauren said, she looked like a homeless person.

Anyway, so I go out to the door.

I left the kids in the car.

You know, I'm playing and I'm just stopping at the door saying, you know, let's go out to eat or whatever.

I did pretty good at work.

I was going to say, let's find your phone and do whatever we got to do today.

I noticed first thing that the dogs didn't run up to me or run outside, or where the hell were the dogs?

I know that I know the door was open, but usually they're within visual.

You know, I don't know where they are.

So I didn't hear any barking, and I go, Where are the girls?

Because usually they at least have a TV at or something or the radio on.

She said,

I was in the door, literally in the doorway.

And so you stood in the door, you didn't actually go in.

Yeah, I stood in the doorway.

Yeah, and then she said, If I have a cigarette, and that's when I took my first step into the door, you know, into the actual house.

You give her a cigarette.

You asked for a cigarette, and then I noticed it was too quiet.

I said, Where are the kids?

And she said, She's standing back towards the kitchen table where we were sitting the night before, there in the corner.

And she said, I killed them.

And I said, No.

She said, I'm going to the deep end.

All I said was no.

Pretty much, I mean, I don't remember if I said anything else, but I just said no, and not like no, like, no, you know, like, it was more like no, you know.

Yeah, and and she said, I'm going to to the deep ends hell

and she said

it's all over now and it's done and that was she wasn't looking at me she was looking at the ground and it was Clay's face again and

and it was monotone voice too and

it is done like that like it is done

and she goes I'm going and she looked up and she goes you have to call the police anymore And I said, okay.

I said, but show me how you tried to kill yourself.

And as soon as she showed me the wrist, I had already backed up enough to where I was out almost out the door, at the doorway again.

And she showed it to me, and I was on the porch by that.

Like, I took another stuff back, and I was on the porch or the decorative work.

And I was starting to go, okay, Jen, you stay here, keep calm.

And that's when I mean, I was like, you know,

yeah.

Before her police interview, investigators hoped that allowing Lauren to listen to her own 911 call over again

would jog her memory and help them piece together what was going through Jenny's mind.

Well, like, I mean, if you could listen to it right now, I was really calm in the beginning because I had still outside of the car when I called.

And

Jenny was like, Are you calling?

And I said, I wanted to say no because I didn't know.

I was fearful for my kids in the car and for myself, but I was walking around to get the address and the copy.

Were you like in the driveway or down the streets to get the car?

I walked around the back of the car because I'm thinking, I'm looking in the car after, because she showed me a wrist.

I'm looking in the car for anything that I could grab out.

You know what I'm saying?

If she comes after me, I don't know.

And then I walk up, I don't know.

Was she ringing her hands?

No, no, no, no, no, no.

I think she may have been smoking a cigarette because I gave her one.

But

I gave her the lighter to use, and she gave it back to me.

But

I'm walking around the back of the car, standing behind the station wagon, thinking that's the safest place if I have to run because I know my car is locked.

And I have the keys in my pocket.

So I'm standing back there and I'm saying, yes, Jennifer, I'm calling, you know, whatever.

I started on a dispatch.

I told them, you know, I don't know what's going on.

I know, and then they're like, ma'am, you have to, you know, you have to tell us.

And I'm thinking, you know, what is there to tell?

I couldn't even fathom.

What am I supposed to say?

You know, and I remember telling them that,

yeah, she harmed herself.

And she said that she killed her kids.

When police arrived at the scene and entered the trailer, they found Jenny pacing around, ready to be taken.

to the, quote, depths of hell.

Their eyes were quickly drawn to the first bloody scene.

Three dead dogs piled up inside a crate.

Jenny hadn't stopped there.

She even stabbed the pet mouse inside its cage.

As officers made their way to the back bedroom, they could see that tragically, Jenny was telling the truth about her kids.

Eight-year-old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to her five-year-old sister, Ashley.

Their throats had been cut.

Jennifer, you know Mark, right?

You've been talking to him.

Like I said, I'm Daniel.

We both work here for the sheriff's office, okay?

We want to talk to you about what's going on, okay?

But before we do that,

can you look at me while we're talking?

Pull your hair at your face so I can see it.

There you go.

Look at me.

There you go.

Before we do that, hey, maintain eye contact with me, okay?

Before we do that, we have to read you your rights, okay?

You know what those are.

You've heard about them, you see them on TV.

Alright, I'm going to read them to you, okay?

Exactly as they are on the list here.

Alright, and then we're done.

I'd like you to sign them, okay, and then we can talk.

But we can't talk until we do that, alright?

Are you cold?

I don't want to talk about it.

Are you just nervous?

I don't want to talk about it.

I don't want to think about it.

Okay, let me just read you your rights here, okay?

Now, you have the right to remain silent.

First of all, Jennifer, okay, take a deep breath, okay?

Get a hold of yourself.

Alright,

Get a hold of yourself.

Alright.

Now you're upset.

And you got every right to be.

Okay?

We got to go through this, alright?

Okay.

You understand all those?

Yes.

Okay.

And then the last question is.

Let me see, second.

I don't want to talk about it.

Oh, babe.

Let me finish this, sir.

I have read these statements of my rights.

I understand what my rights are.

I'm willing to make a statement and answer questions.

I do not want a lawyer at this time.

I understand and know what what I'm doing.

No promises or threats have been made to me.

No pressure or coercion of any kind been used against me.

Okay, do you understand that?

Okay.

Knowing all that, you want to talk to us right now?

I don't want to talk about it.

I don't want to think about it.

Okay.

Okay.

Jennifer Card, you want to talk to an attorney?

I don't even want to think about it.

We just want to get a couple things straight to make sure we got

everything right, okay, so we don't want to get anything wrong.

Okay.

If you want to talk to an attorney, that's one thing, but if you just a little nervous about it, maybe we can work that out.

You were very cooperative during the

forensic exam, which we really appreciate.

Nurses were very pleased with that.

Are you cold?

No, I just don't want to talk about it.

You want a blanket?

No.

Get you a blanket or, you know, make

a little fraction.

Erase my brain.

If you erase my members, then I love you for that one.

Okay.

Sit tight here for a minute.

In case you couldn't understand her, at the end she said, erase my brain.

Erase my memory.

And I'd love you for that one.

We can only imagine what's in there.

Do you understand what we're trying to do here?

You know, like I said, if you want to turn your or something like that, I can understand it.

But just try to sell them down.

I'm just talking to you.

I'm not anyway.

We just want to make sure we got things right.

We want to make sure we got them understood.

We don't want to make any mistakes.

That's why we want to talk to you.

I don't want to coerce you.

I don't want to talk you into talking if you want to talk to an attorney, but if you're just a little nervous, we can wait.

We can get you some water.

You know, just have you relax a little bit.

Okay.

Get your blanket.

It is cold in there.

I'm even cold in there.

It's clear that these guys were getting nervous that Jenny may decide not to talk.

So they started to employ a little bit of

good cop, bad cop.

Just before the one detective was able to follow through on his promise of some water and a blanket, the other came bursting back into the room.

What do you think about that?

Want to sit and think about it with a little bit of water and a blanket?

Maybe some water.

Okay, well, we'll get you some water.

All right, you don't want to talk to us?

Is that right?

You not want to talk to us?

I don't want to really talk about it.

You can ask I can see if I can answer it.

I can't prompt.

Okay, stand up then.

Don't please back.

I took it back.

They took her back to her cell and planned to try again the next day.

Let me just reiterate.

Yesterday you said you didn't want to talk to us because you just weren't up to us.

Today you want to talk to us.

Jennifer, today you do want to talk to us without a lawyer present?

It doesn't matter.

Okay.

When you say it doesn't matter, that means you want to talk to us?

Okay.

Game with broken pairs.

Yeah, it doesn't want to come off.

Try this one.

Jennifer, you take any kind of medication normally?

No?

At all?

Nothing?

No?

Okay.

Nothing for any type of

psychiatric or nothing for any type of physical?

No.

Once Jennifer really starts to open up to detectives in this interview, It's clear that she absolutely needed to be on psychiatric medicine.

It's not often that we gain access to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe mental illness, but Jennifer's case is unique.

We'll get back to that later.

Well, what do you want to?

No.

I don't know.

Well, we know why we're here, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

We know what happened.

You know what happened, right?

The big question is why.

And that's why I want to.

I don't know.

I really don't fucking know.

It's like the night before, the two nights before that or whatever i just stayed up all night long i kept having every time i close my eyes i keep having these like bad dreams of like

dead people or whatever and blah blah blah and i'm like well what the hell this is just weird so i didn't even think about that does this happen to you frequently that you dream about dead people or no never i watched freaking story movies none of that just scares me first time you've ever had this type of thing okay yeah yeah

i mean hell my kid

we used to watch the sci-fi shit all the time but anyway

so I was like up all night for that.

No big deal.

Woke up the next day.

No big deal.

No crowns with nothing.

What day would that have been?

I don't remember.

I don't even know what day it is right now.

Today's Monday.

When did I get here?

Yesterday was Sunday.

Okay, so this would have been Saturday morning.

Everything was fine.

And then all of a sudden, my sister was there.

My sister Lauren.

She's the one who calls you guys.

Right.

She was at my house.

And all of a sudden, it was like I just...

Kept freaking hearing this like voice in my head telling me all this shit.

She's like, Jenny, stop talking to them.

Stop listening to the voice or whatever the hell you're doing, stop doing it.

And then she's like, How did she know you were listening to the voice?

I was telling her what it was fucking saying.

It was Saturday morning.

No, if I got here Sunday,

it would have been Saturday afternoon.

Now, keep in mind, the average person would probably freak out upon hearing their sibling talking to themselves as if they're having a conversation.

But for Lauren, this was nothing new.

She was no stranger to brushing off the nonsensical ramblings.

She even said to Jenny, stop talking to those voices or whatever it is that you're doing.

In Lauren's sane mind, addressing her older sister's mental illness was at the bottom of the list of priorities.

When Jenny's pipes froze and the trailer descended into chaos, Lauren's first concern was the safety of her nieces.

Basically, she thought, okay, Jenny isn't a danger to herself or them.

She's made it this far in life.

Let's just deal with the issues that we can fix right now.

Which, you know, makes a lot of sense.

And what did you guys do?

Were you guys picking things up around the house?

Yeah, they were helping me clean up my house and shit.

Okay.

I've been drinking way too much, and my house was a sad.

What were you guys cleaning up for?

She said, I was afraid to see it was going to get caught.

I was going to lose my kids.

The house was that bad.

I mean, it had to be cleaned up.

So they came over to help me clean it up and freaking I was going to...

My sister paid them $10 a piece to help me that day and I was gonna pay her back the money so I was broke did um

were you drinking when they were there

I had a couple of beers when they were there and how often do you drink you said you've been drinking a lot lately and how much like every day maybe like a 12 pack a day but I was cutting I was trying no

between a six to a twelve pack a day okay well usually buy a natural iced beer or whatever but

shoot they were helping they came over and they were helped me die that and I just started freaking out and then after they left is when freaking I started to hear actually.

Do you hear voices when you drink?

No.

I don't think I've ever had that happen to me ever in my entire life.

It was just like somebody's freaking right in my fucking head.

And it wasn't even like hearing voices.

I could hear it, and it was like I was reading it at the same time, if that makes any sense.

It wasn't weird shit.

Go to this part of the house, go to that part of the house, go to this part of the house, go to that part of the house.

It was like all nice and sweet at first, and then freaking it started getting freaking weird, and then it just freaking got evil.

It freaking Steven telling me, and then I freaking started listening to it, I guess.

Because then I freaking started taking the it started saying something about freaking people being outside ready to come in and kill us and all this weird shit.

And that freaking I'd have to do this or that.

If I don't want my kids to die, do this or that.

And then, freaking after, like, freaking probably about half an hour, hour of that, freaking I finally freaking told me to get my kids all ready and take them down the street to their friend's house so that they wouldn't die that night.

And then, halfway there, it said, take them back home because they are already killed at that house.

Did you

actually take them down the street?

Yeah, I did.

All of what Jenny is recounting to police had happened after her sister, Lauren left that night.

I'm still confused.

I'm still just like figuring this out.

It was like, what the hell, man?

What did I do?

Freaking, I actually freaking did that.

Oh, it gets weirder.

This gets really weirder.

Freaking that, all that happens, and then, okay, if I can get back in the house, I'm like, well, what the hell?

You know, this is just for me.

Why'd you turn back?

Kids voice told me to, whatever voice told me to, and freaking not to go down there because they were already dead.

Blah, blah, blah.

They told me to go back to the house.

And I said, well, shake it in the morning because then you'll find out they're not dead.

But don't go over there now.

And then blah, blah, blah.

And back and forth and back and forth.

And kept saying stuff about how people would come over in there and kill me.

And I'd never know it when they finally broke in the house.

So you return to the house with the girls because the voice tells you.

Yeah, and it went back and forth.

And then it got nicer again.

And it was like, well, you have to do this and you have to do that.

You know, this for your girls to make them nice, ma'am.

You got to take care of your kids and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And then it started getting evil again.

Were you going to put the girls to bed?

Yes, I did.

Were they sleeping on the floor?

So we were going to all sleep together on the bed because it was like, well, whatever, whatever.

And then this voice is telling me all this weird shit.

So we were, because we haven't done this in years.

I I used to sleep by the couch.

But then we were going to freaking sleep on the bed.

So freaking, we made up the bed on the floor in the girls' room, and freaking we were going to lay down.

I actually lay down in the middle of them.

Lexa was on this side of me, and I had my arm around her, and I was rubbing her head, and Ashley was on this side, and I was the same thing with her.

And we were going to sleep like that.

We're all like, oh, I love you, girl, have good dreams, blah blah blah, and blah, blah, blah.

And it was all good like that.

And then freaking, I got up, and the voice started talking to me again.

And freaking telling me this.

Girls asleep at that point when you got up?

Yeah.

Okay.

And freaking, I actually went afarm and I hit the bushel knife up to my neck, and I didn't do that.

And then freaking the voice telling me to do this and that, and it's telling me to go kill my kids before the people break into my house to kill them.

It hurt him even worse than what they were going, what would have happened or whatever, just kill them so that it doesn't happen.

And I wasn't gonna do that, I just sit there going and listening with a freaking knife in my hand, going, oh my God, oh my God, oh my god, if anybody walks in here, fuck motherfucker.

So the voices in Jennifer's head were apparently telling her that if she didn't kill her kids, people would break into her house, take them away from her, and they'd suffer a fate far worse than death.

Whatever that is.

At this point, she had long stopped drinking beers, hoping sobriety would make all of this go away, but it wasn't working.

At first, Jennifer refused to give in to the voices and follow through with the murders.

Instead, she put the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to her own throat and considered killing herself.

After deciding against that, she went and sat in the front room, still clutching the knife, and waited for people to arrive.

If the voices were right and someone did break in, she'd be ready to defend her family.

Some time passed and obviously nothing happened.

The voices were gone, too.

So

thinking the whole ordeal was over, she went back and laid in bed with her girls, eventually falling asleep until morning.

Yeah, go back to what you at 7.30, you woke them up, put their coat and shoes on.

Yeah, then we were going to go leave and freaking go somewhere they were like, no, freaking, we can't leave or whatever.

Where are we gonna go, do you think?

Across the street to the payphone to call my dad for some reason.

Okay.

To try to have him come pick us up, because I was like freaking so scared.

And then we I don't even know if we even went outside, I don't remember, before we turned back in and freaking didn't.

And then it was like nothing was happening.

And then all of a sudden I just freaking grabbed the knife and did it.

Alright, when that happened, where did you get the knife from?

I think it was in the kitchen.

And how did the girls get back in the bedroom?

Did you tell them to go back?

Yeah.

And they went back in the bedroom.

And they were scared.

I know.

And

who went first?

Alexa?

Your younger one?

And what is the one?

The bigger one.

The bigger one.

I'm sorry.

She's actually, I follow Ashley.

I thought, freaking, I could have swear.

I thought, I was like telling Alexa, I love you.

You know, you'll never be here.

Blah, blah, blah.

I won't let that happen to you.

And then she's like, can't Ashley?

And I was like, okay.

And then I walked out of the freaking bedroom.

And I can't even believe Lexa said that.

I don't believe Lexa actually said that.

Yeah, I don't believe that.

I must have heard that in my fucking head.

There's no...

Did Ashley run from the room?

Yeah, she was hiding under the kitchen table.

This was clearly difficult for Jennifer.

Talking about what she did to her own two little girls.

You can hear in the audio that she seems to show some remorse, but her train of thought keeps getting redirected away from the worst parts of that morning.

Did you bring Ashley back in the bedroom next to Alexa?

Yeah.

Is that where she died?

Is that where it happened?

I

think, yeah, I don't think Ashley died until the bedroom.

Because it was in the kitchen.

Did you carry her back to the bedroom?

Yes.

But she was.

I thought she was dead in the kitchen, but I don't think she was.

I don't think she died until she got back to the bedroom.

Did you actually stab her in the kitchen?

Yes.

And how did you stab her?

Where was she at?

Was she on the floor on the ground on her back?

Was she standing up?

I don't remember.

Did you stab her?

Maybe I didn't do it in the kitchen then.

I don't know.

Okay.

But did you you took her back to the bedroom at some point?

Was she fighting you?

No, I don't know.

I don't think so

She's probably was

I would have been fucked

you laid her next to uh

To Alexa?

Was Alexa already dead at this point?

Yeah, and and when you laid Ashley was she dead when you laid her next to Alexa or did you lay her down then?

I laid her down.

I think I made sure she was dead.

I don't know.

When you say you made sure she was dead, what did you do?

See if there was pulse.

Can you show me how, can you put the cup down for a second?

Show me what hand you held the knife in and show me how you actually, what motion you did.

I don't know, I just like dead.

I think, I don't know.

So you're holding your hand up like this and coming down with a knife.

Do you hold the knife like this?

Or like

this?

In the footage, the detective shows two different stabbing motions.

The first one he demonstrates is an overhead downward motion, while the other is an underhanded swiping upwards.

Were the voices still talking to you when you were doing this?

They were doing this all day long.

I wouldn't freaking leave my house after I did it.

I actually thought I saved them.

And then I started looking around the house and freaking

everything the voices told me the night before.

And the voices were actually even telling me, I think, that freaking, they were going to drive me crazy.

So I killed my kids by the morning time.

And I was like, no,

at one point, I think.

All right.

So I don't remember everything.

So

it was sometime shortly after 7:30 yesterday morning when the girls died, right?

Yep.

Okay, and then how long after that did the dogs die?

You were caught?

Not long.

I was walking around the house and I kept thinking about freaking weird shit about I was going to go burn in hell now and demons were going to come pick me up from the front of my house in a freaking red car with fingers and toenails.

It's freaking

seat covers and shit.

I don't know.

It was fuck freaky.

And all of a sudden I was like, The dogs are still alive.

Freaking out.

I'm going to be tortured to death when they drop me down into hell.

I got to kill the animals.

Kill the animals.

How'd you do that?

There's more water for you, too.

Um, I stuck the knife in it and just went down and made sure they were dead.

Were they on the ground?

Were you holding them?

They were on a green blanket.

But Angel, the big mouth, actually got away and ran into the kitchen.

I had to chase her down and bring her back.

And I told them it was for their own good.

And you put her on a blanket, but

threw them in the cage.

Okay, and then what are the little ones called?

The puppies, they were um um

Jasmine and um

what was the other one?

Sam

and they were uh

the offspring of Angel that was their mom.

What kind of dogs are they?

I don't know.

She's she was full Pomeranian, and I don't know what dad was, she just got pregnant.

Okay,

and then

what about that mouse and the uh the pet mouse?

I had to kill the mouse, too.

How did you uh get in?

I think I like broke it's neck or something.

Did you try to stab it?

Probably.

Jennifer had killed every living being in her small trailer.

Her two defenseless girls, three tiny Pomeranians, two of them puppies, and even the pet mouse.

And it wasn't just the dog she had to chase down to finish the job.

Despite their youngest age, her two daughters knew exactly what was going to happen, and they tried to get away.

There's nothing I can say to prepare you for this next part.

It is absolutely heartbreaking.

Just to go back just so I can clarify, Alexa was killed in her bedroom.

Was she killed right where we found her

on the floor on that little makeshift bed that you guys were sleeping on?

Okay.

And then when while Alexa was being killed, Ashley ran out of the room

and she ran into the kitchen under the table and she's hiding under the table and I pulled her out and did you did you stab her under the table at all did you try to like

say come out come out or or or how did you get her out from under the table just grabbed her arm and pulled her out I think you grabbed her arm and pulled her out because there's a little bit of blood under the table

so we're wondering did she get stabbed over there at all

She got stabbed in the bedroom first and Alexa pushed me out, pushed her out of the way and then I did to Alexa.

So Ashley was already

bleeding.

Okay.

So Ashley was bleeding.

That's why there's a bit of blood on the table.

Okay.

So then once you get Ashley from underneath the table you carry her back to the bedroom.

Mm-hmm.

And you lay did she fight

more?

Did you

lay her down

right next to Alexa and that's where she died?

Yes.

Okay, And

did she try to get back up and run again?

Yes, okay,

all right.

Throughout this part of the interview, Jennifer, with a blanket over her shoulders, is using it to cover her face.

She's hunched over in her chair, rocking back

and forth.

Did she say anything to you?

Jennifer,

I know this is hard.

Do you recall her standing?

No, I don't.

Okay.

Was she crying?

Yeah.

What was she saying?

No, no, no, mama.

Don't do it.

Mama.

She was scared as fuck.

Okay.

Alright.

Okay.

And how many times do you think he stabbed her?

I have no idea.

I don't want to know.

Okay.

Do you remember how many times you stabbed Ashley?

I don't know.

I'm sorry, Alexa?

No, I don't want to know that either.

Okay.

Do you remember when Ashley was stabbed the first time she went out of the room?

Where was she stabbed?

In the neck.

In the neck?

Was it a deep wound?

Or was it just

kind of nick her?

I don't know.

Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay everyone in the trailer that morning.

She ended her daughters' lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area, effectively severing their windpipes, as well as important arteries.

Besides the neck wounds, though, there were no defensive injuries.

These poor little girls couldn't even begin to fight off their mother.

All they could do was run and try to find a hiding spot, but even then, Jennifer chased them

down.

Have you used narcotics in the past, like long in your history?

Did you use any kind of drugs?

Nothing long-term abuse of anything.

Well, what did you use?

I've smoked pot a few times.

I've done acid a few times.

Did acid?

How long ago did you do acid?

When I was a teenager.

Okay.

But recently, have you been using any kind of street drugs?

Nothing whatsoever.

Any kind of prescription drugs?

No.

Okay.

And have you ever seen anybody about any kind of problems in your head?

Ever talked to anybody about it?

Go see a doctor or?

I had a couple strengths when I was a kid.

That's because I was getting molested and stuff.

My mom always stopped taking me and shit.

Okay.

Did your mom have some problems?

My mom, no god.

My mom's a paranoid schizophrenic, manic depressant.

Through interviewing both Jennifer and her sister Lauren, detectives were beginning.

to put the pieces together.

Jennifer had been on a slow path to mental ruin.

She had self-awareness, and she knew she was displaying many of the same odd behaviors her mother had shown as her mental health declined.

This wasn't her first rodeo.

Jennifer knew how these things eroded.

She felt herself losing grip on reality, and she had been desperately trying

to hide it.

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21-year-old Lauren Kukla loved her family.

Her biggest concern was making sure all of the children were safe, well-fed, and loved.

To make this kind of life a reality for her two nieces, eight-year-old Alexa and five-year-old Ashley, this often meant cleaning up her sister's messes.

Her oldest sister Jennifer was a functioning alcoholic with constant money problems.

And so those are the issues Lauren often helped to address.

These surface issues paled in comparison to the turmoil happening in Jennifer's mind.

The Kukla family was no stranger to mental illness, which somewhat blinded Lauren to her sister's worsening mental state.

At the same time Jennifer was trying to hide her mental illness, she often became nervous after saying what she perceived to be the wrong thing, which was basically anything that might indicate she was losing her mind.

Lauren was so concerned with these surface-level issues that Jennifer's feeble attempts to hide what was actually going on worked.

Things got quietly worse until February 4th, 2007, when Jennifer murdered her two little girls.

Apparently Jennifer's paranoia and hallucinations reached a peak that weekend.

She told psychiatrists that voices were telling her that if she didn't kill her children, they'd be kidnapped, sexually abused, tortured, murdered, and then eaten.

In her distorted mind, Jennifer thought slitting their throats and ending it all quickly was an act of compassion.

It was, from her perspective, the only way she could save them.

Have you heard from the voices since

this happened?

Well,

the morning after it happened, I stayed in the house, and I was like, I couldn't leave.

It was like I was sitting there waiting for somebody to come pick me up to take me straight to hell.

And it was like no big deal.

It was like it was normal.

So were were you there all day then?

No sir all day.

Did you leave at any point?

No.

So go to my car to get to your butts I go right back in out.

That was it.

Was your door left open all day?

Yes.

I was afraid to shut it.

Why?

I don't know.

It was like freaking if I shut it then the freaking demons would come faster or some crap.

Did you get cold?

Mm-hmm.

Where were you at during the day?

Mostly sitting on the couch, I think.

Did you go back in the bedroom at all?

A couple times, but I couldn't stay back there.

What'd you do?

Stay back there?

Which bedroom?

Did you go to your bedroom or the girls?

Girls.

Oh, and I went back in

the bathroom and I had to change my clothes and freaking

get all cleaned up for some fucked up reason.

How did you get cleaned up?

Was that your water wasn't running?

Like

the water, like out of the

toilet, you know, the tank?

Yeah, it was fucked.

I don't know.

Okay, when you say you got changed, what were you wearing that night in that morning?

Um

I don't remember.

Maybe there's my sister.

So after killing her children and all of the pets, Jennifer stayed in the house with their dead bodies all day.

She paced around until the voices apparently told her to clean it up.

With no running water though, she decided to take the lid off the toilet tank and use the water in there to rinse off before replacing her bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry.

When Lauren came upon the carnage and saw her sister dressed like a quote hobo, she suddenly realized what had been happening this whole time.

At that moment, Lauren didn't see her sister, she saw her mother.

Jennifer had become the splitting image of her mother so her actions didn't that day that day and that evening didn't surprise you because you had

your mom had acted similar to that i mean it was it was surprising but it was more interesting because when my mom would do i mean she wouldn't do stuff exactly like that she never told me she would just tell me about it happening right i mean

Because my mom used to say, I remember her telling me, Jenny telling me one time that she, my mom pulled over the car right over on Romeo Plank near Speedway.

And and she said I'm gonna drown us in our in my pit you know and she pulled she pulled her pants down and she was gonna drown herself in the pit there my mom was multiple suicide attempts you know what I'm saying not in front of me but Jenny said you guys are lucky you never had it as bad as we did she I guess she chased Lizzie around the backyard with a butcher knife one time and like all this stuff I don't know I don't remember too young I guess like all right shut it out I have no idea but

She would tell me stuff about make

Keith Richards and when we lost our house, how Keith Richards was going to buy it and she was going to get married to him.

She told me about this guy who was like a healer and like, you know, like she worked.

He was a little bit more.

He lost the house on

it.

When my grandma was sick of paying for it.

When did your

dad go to prison?

I was seven, 13 years ago.

He's still in prison for that?

No, yeah, three years.

That was your natural father?

Oh, I'm sorry.

I thought she said the other day that he was still in prison.

I wish.

When's the last thing you made in contact with him?

Called me that night.

Sunday night.

After he heard us.

He lives right.

Me and my husband are separated, like I said.

He lives three condos away from my husband's mom, my mother and mom.

Looking back at all the strange things Jennifer had said and done made so much more sense when compared to her mother's decline, but...

Hindsight is 2020.

Let's rewind back to when Jennifer became paranoid that the two people who helped clean up her trailer were going to call CPS and turn her in.

She said, I mean, all she was, she talked, I guess, briefly to this Jessica girl about how she she liked Dean Coombs books and stuff like that.

Different kinds of like hordes and suspense and stuff like that.

And she said that

later isn't right, she said that she, you know.

She didn't she wishes she didn't say that because she probably those girls probably think or that guy that girl probably thinks that that she's not for liking those kinds of books.

I mean, that's, I don't know if I mean anything, but she just said, she's like, tell them that, you know, I just like to read those kinds of books, you know, they interest me, blah, blah, blah.

And then she said

to me that she's starting not to remember, but starting to understand why she was drinking, why she would have had a drinking problem.

Yeah, she said she understands why she has a drinking problem.

For us, the people on the outside, it's not at all surprising that Jennifer suffered from addiction.

But in Jennifer's mind, this all stemmed from her hypnosis as a teenager.

That it's in some way hello-high, in some way connected to

the hypnotism.

Who does she think hypnotism?

She didn't disclose that information to me.

She said that she told Al

that

she knew biker crews like vigilantes or something.

know, she didn't say vigilantes, but that's the only name of a biker crew I've ever heard in my life.

So, like stuff like that, that she was affiliating with them.

She said that Jim Real, which I know was a boss at Dijinko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's, where she worked at a golf course for a couple years

and stuff like that.

She said that he,

she wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if she, if she would go there and if she was actually doing the work that, you know, that they, she told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.

She's thinking that she was very wanted to thinking she was doing that kind of work when really she was doing something else.

She says that that was like a lapse in her brain.

She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life.

She asked me if I remembered her.

This was all Saturday night?

She said,

I think, Lauren, that I used to kill people.

And I said,

I really, I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing it as an issue.

Like she was saying it almost not in a joking manner, but

not to where it's like, Warren, I think I used to kill people.

You need to, you know, help me or something.

You know, she's like, I think you used to kill people.

I'm like, Jenny, you know, where are you getting this from?

She's like, I don't know.

I just, I, she's like, I don't understand.

I don't remember.

I don't remember.

And then she said, she said, like, I don't remember that, like three times, you know, in a row.

And then she said, I think I ate them.

And I said, Jenny, you know, and I remember growing up, like, she used to have like, I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do like candle things in her room.

And like, she'd walk around the candle.

Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, weird shit like that.

Like, seance almost type of thing.

Like, yeah, like a seance or like a demonic something or other.

But I mean, she, at that time, I know that she had had some experiences with drugs.

I don't know what, because I was nine years younger, but I know, I mean, my mom busted a pot in the house.

She found plants that she threw them against the wall, because they were all in the basement.

The kids, me and my older, my Lizzie shared a room upstairs for a while and then when my dad started raping the kids like right before

Jenny turned like 10 or something 12 I don't know he made the bedrooms downstairs for them so it was almost like their whole like

I mean they were they weren't finished there was tile on the floor but it was like

they were drywall and stuff like that they had separate rooms and Lizzie was in this room Joey was in the middle and then Jenny was at the far end and she used to come and sneak boys in and stuff like that.

And they do, I mean, man message.

So when that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiancé now, I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever I didn't know.

And I wouldn't tell my mom because they would tell me to shut up and they'd tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was, there was stuff under the, I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing.

There was stuff under the stairs.

There was fixed fighters.

There was ghosts, whatever, you know what I'm saying?

And I literally, I really believe that they,

even if they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you know what I mean, to where they thought that this was real, you know, or at least maybe she lived with that.

She used to cut, like, she, I remember one time she cut slayer into her arm, and I was like, is that a band?

Because she was into heavy metal.

And she's like, no.

And she's like, I didn't even do this.

You know, and

I can remember her, not that time, but I can remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms and stuff like that.

And my mom would send her to the counselor, but because my mom was

emotionally disturbed as well, and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever, she would take them out because, in her mind,

counselors and stuff like that were bad.

You know, police were good, always, police were good.

But counselors were bad, teachers were bad,

they didn't know what they were teaching you, they didn't know what they, you know, all this stuff.

And she would say that they're gathering information on us.

They want, they want us, they want us, they want us.

She would say, like, we're like Christ's bloodline, she knew Christ's descendants, we're, you know, all this stuff.

And that's what I had to go up around.

I mean, I got past it.

I'm working.

I mean, I worked through it.

I understand that she had an illness, but I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom, the way that she was.

You were used to that kind of thing.

I was used to it, and I never thought that she would harm anybody because my mom never threatened.

It didn't alarm you because you've been exposed to it.

Right, and it was right.

It didn't at all.

And I've been working through that, but at the same time,

when I talked to her, I was like, How would you know that she was going to hurt anybody?

And she's like,

She said that anything that Jenny could have said, I mean, it would grow right off my back at the state that I am at right now.

So it did, you know what I'm saying?

And then she started saying, you know,

it's hard for me to get past my past with my mom.

Hard for me to even say that I can't believe what she was telling me about, you know, Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my mom, and I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth.

Sure.

That's my mom, you know.

So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think, what if mom, I don't, I don't want to say that I'm, I don't want to feel like you, or you guys think that I'm crazy, but what if, you know, maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom telling her this stuff, but like maybe something my mom said was true.

Maybe, you know, we are, she was special, or Jenny is special.

That's why she tried to protect her before, you know, and that's why my mom had to be put on meds was because she knew something, and then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever.

I don't know, you know what I'm saying?

And

I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something.

I don't know.

I can probably

that it's in some way hella high, in some way connected to

the

hypnotism.

Who does she think hypnotized?

She didn't disclose that information to me.

She said that she told Al

that

she knew biker crews, like Vigilantes, or you know, she didn't say vigilantes, but that's the only name of biker crew I've ever heard in my life.

So like stuff like that, that she was affiliating with them.

She said that Jim Real, which I know was a boss at Dijinko and was also the owner or part owner of TJ's where she worked at a golf course for a couple years

and stuff like that.

She said that he

wasn't sure if she ever really worked there,

if she would go there and if she was actually doing the work that, you know, that they, she told me she was like a bartender and a cook and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.

She's thinking that she was very watching thinking she was doing that kind of work when really she was doing something else.

She says that that was like a lapse in her brain.

She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life.

She asked me if I remembered her.

This was all Saturday night?

She said,

I think, Lauren, that I used to kill people.

And I said,

I really, I literally wrote it off as her just being either drunk or me not recognizing it as an issue.

Like, she was saying it almost not in a joking manner, but

not to where it's like, Lauren, I think I used to kill people.

You need to, you know, help me or something.

You know, and she was like, I think you used to kill people.

I'm like, Jenny, you know, where are you getting this from?

She's like, I don't know.

I just, she's like, I don't understand.

I don't remember.

I don't remember.

And then she said, she said, like, I don't remember that, like three times, you know, in a row.

And then she said, I think I ate them.

And I said, Jenny, you know, and I remember growing up, like, she used to have like, I know it sounds stupid, but she used to do like candle things in her room.

And like, she'd walk around with the candle.

Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like weird shit like that.

Like seance almost type of thing.

Like a seance.

Yeah, like a seance or

like a demonic.

something or other.

But I mean, she, at that time, I know that she had had some experiences with drugs.

I don't know what, because I was nine years younger, but I know, I mean, my mom busted a pot in the house.

She found plants and she threw them against the wall.

They were all in the basement.

The kids, me and my old, my Lizzie, shared a room upstairs for a while.

And then when my dad started raping the kids, like right before

Jenny turned like 10 or something, 12, I don't know, he made the bedrooms downstairs for them.

So it was almost like their whole, like,

I mean,

they weren't finished.

There was tile on the floor, but it was like

they were drywall and stuff like that they had separate rooms and Lizzie was in this room Joey was in the middle and then Jenny was at the far end and she used to come and sneak boys in and stuff like that and they do I mean Matt Message the one that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiancé now and like I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever I didn't know and I wouldn't tell my mom because they would tell me to shut up and they'd tell me not to come downstairs all the time because there was stuff under I think they were trying to keep me away from whatever they were doing there's stuff under the stairs.

There was fixed fighters.

There was ghosts, whatever.

You know what I'm saying?

And I literally, I really believe that they,

even if they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you know what I mean, to where they thought that this was real.

Or at least maybe she lived with that.

She used to cut, like, I remember one time she cut slayer into her arm.

And I was like, is that, you know, I would ban because she was into heavy metal.

And she's like, no.

And she's like, I didn't even do this.

You know, and I...

I can remember her,

not that time, but I can remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms and stuff like that.

And my mom would send her to the counselor.

But because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well, and she had her own bipolar schizophrenia or whatever, she would take them out because in her mind, counselors and stuff like that were bad.

You know, police were good always.

Police were good.

But counselors were bad.

Teachers were bad.

They didn't know what they were teaching you.

They didn't know what they, you know, all this stuff.

And she would say that they're gathering information on us.

They want us.

They want us.

They want us.

She would say, like, we're like Christ's bloodline.

She knew Christ's descendants.

We're, you know, all this stuff.

And that's what I had to go up around.

I mean, I got past it.

I'm working.

I mean, I worked through it.

I understand that she had an illness, but

I know it sounds really bad on my part, but growing up with my mom, the way that she was.

You were used to that kind of thing.

I was used to it, and I never thought that she would hurt anybody because my mom never threatened.

She didn't alarm you because you'd been exposed to her.

Right,

right.

It didn't at all.

And I mean, I've been working through that, but at the same time,

my father's like, how would you know that she was going to hurt anybody?

And she's like, She said that anything that Jenny could have said, I mean, we roll right off my back at the state that I am it right now.

So, it did, you know what I'm saying?

And then she started saying, you know,

it's hard for me to get past my past with my mom.

Hard for me to even say that I can't believe what she was telling me about, you know, Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my mom.

And I was conditioned my entire life to believe that she was telling me the truth.

Sure.

That's my mom, you know.

So when Jenny tells me this stuff,

I think, what if mom, I don't, I don't want to say that I'm, I don't want to feel like you, or you guys think that I'm crazy, but what if, you know, maybe this is, you know, my mom, not my mom telling her this stuff, but like, maybe something my mom said was true.

Maybe, you know, we are, she was special or Jenny is special.

That's why she tried to protect her before, you know, and that's why my mom had to be put on meds was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny would know the same thing or be able to do the same thing or whatever.

I don't know.

You know what I'm saying?

And

I thought it was some kind of religious belief that they both shared or something.

I don't know.

Their mother's unchecked mental illness had set the stage.

Jennifer's life was a perfect storm, and she knew it.

What else do you need to know?

Anything else you can think of to buzz a soul incident?

I never should have had kids.

She looked at my mom and said, Well, she's cycle, make sure I don't do it to nobody else.

Don't have kids.

And there it is.

Hearing these final words is

haunting.

Her admission.

I should have never

had

kids.

It's not just a regret.

It's the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle of trauma and mental illness.

She saw and experienced the fallout of her own mother's struggle, lived through it, and yet found herself walking down a similar path, trapped by the very symptoms she once feared.

Jennifer was raised by someone incapable of loving, protecting, and caring for her in the way every child deserves.

This was a parent who not only failed to protect, but often directly exposed them to traumatic experiences.

After living through that trauma, this same parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services.

Perhaps Jennifer was set up to fail from the very start.

In September of 2007, about seven months after the tragic murders, 30-year-old Jennifer Kukla went to trial for two counts of first-degree murder.

Three separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore not criminally responsible.

They felt she should be found guilty by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility.

The jury, though, didn't buy it.

They cited the feeble attempt at suicide, the inconsistencies in Jennifer's police interview compared to her psych interviews, and even witnessed testimony from from her employer who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her kids during a conversation about being late for work because of them.

To top it off, even if Jennifer had been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law, if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not a defense.

The jury rendered a guilty verdict while also acknowledging the obvious mental illness.

She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the promise that she would receive at least some mental health care.

The police officers who responded to the gruesome scene will never get the image out of their heads.

Jennifer asked for her brain to be erased, and I'm sure those officers wish for the very same thing.

They remember seeing the two little girls laying side by side in their small bedroom, surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork, and even photos of them smiling with their mom.

One deputy said this.

You can only imagine their lifestyle.

You could see that they didn't have much,

but what they did have, they seemed to appreciate.

They seemed like they were happy, cute girls.

You have to try hard not to think about it rationally.

It was an irrational act.

You never

let it go.

All right, I'll tell you one little thing.

The show that's coming up is called This Doesn't Happen to People Like Me.

I know it's a very long title.

Anyway, go find it on Apple and Spotify and subscribe.

Do it now.

I will say one more thing because I know how you people operate.

Yes, the show will be available on Plus commercial free, of course.

And it's going to be on every tier as well.

So no more mix-ups.

But you do help us out tremendously still by subscribing on Apple

and Spotify.

It's time to head back to school and forward to your future with Carrington College.

For over 55 years, we've helped train the next generation of healthcare professionals.

Apply now to get hands-on training from teachers with real-world experience.

In as few as nine months, you could start making a difference in healthcare.

Classes start soon in Pleasant Hill, San Leandro, and San Jose.

Visit Carrington.edu to see what's next for you.

Visit Carrington.edu/slash SCI for information on program outcomes.

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