Episode 326

Speaker 1 Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

Speaker 2 Investigator realize I need to step up and be a better mom.

Speaker 2 I mean, I hate to be the bear of bad news, but you're not going to get the opportunity for a long, long time. Not only is the state going to have custody of your children, you're going to jail today.

Speaker 2 If I have my way, you're going as an accomplice to murder.

Speaker 1 Some nights start with laughter and with sirens. No one sees it coming until it's too late.
Some nights are simply born under a bad sign.

Speaker 1 You likely won't even feel it at first. The music's loud, the drinks are flowing, and it all feels harmless enough.
But violence rarely announces itself.

Speaker 1 It rarely sends an RSVP with a self-addressed stamped envelope. Often it builds quietly, bubbling beneath the surface until It does what all bubbles do, and it bursts without warning.

Speaker 1 And when it does, the people who pay the price are rarely the ones looking for trouble. They're the ones standing too close when the world suddenly tilts towards chaos.

Speaker 2 There's not even

Speaker 2 turning shoulder.

Speaker 2 Okay, calm down.

Speaker 1 How many times have you been stabbed?

Speaker 2 I think five. Multiple times.

Speaker 2 Okay. I watched it happen.
The guy had been, he stabbed him in the shoulder.

Speaker 2 He has eight wounds in the neck.

Speaker 2 He has another wound in the shoulder.

Speaker 1 On April 23rd, 2023, at about 3 a.m., deputies from the Hawking County Sheriff's Office were dispatched to a remote cabin tucked deep in the woods of Sugar Grove, a lovely village in the wonderful state of Ohio, which we love so much on this program, namely because of all the wonderful and colorful people that live there and all of the wonderful content they bring us.

Speaker 1 When deputies finally arrived to their destination, they found a group of young adults gathered near the front porch of the cabin.

Speaker 1 They were visibly shaken and clustered around a young man sprawled on the ground. The young man was covered in blood.
He had been stabbed several times, and time

Speaker 1 was running out.

Speaker 2 Come on, baby. Charlie, you're so sorry.

Speaker 2 Is he breathing? Yes, he is. I have a

Speaker 2 shoe up. Anthony Bleno's back.
Yes.

Speaker 2 Aggressively.

Speaker 1 Deputies learned that the young man's name was Charlie. While waiting for paramedics to arrive, his friends hovered close, supplying makeshift bandages and holding pressure on his stab wounds.

Speaker 1 They urged Charlie to hang on and keep fighting.

Speaker 2 You got it. You're so tough.
Come on, Charlie.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you got it.

Speaker 1 Slide him over.

Speaker 2 Come on, Charlie. Keep breathing, brother.
So good. Come on, bro.
Come on.

Speaker 2 Your push is so fucking strong, man. Think about how strong you're going to be.
You are the strongest person I ever know. If anybody can make this and fight this, it's you.

Speaker 2 There we go. Squad's here.
The squad's here, Charlie.

Speaker 2 Yeah, come on.

Speaker 2 Charlie, I'm so proud. I'm so proud.
You're doing so good.

Speaker 2 Keep pushing for us, alright? Model stab wounds to the neck.

Speaker 2 Abdomen.

Speaker 2 How big was the neck? You guys,

Speaker 2 I'm not quite sure how big he is. About five stab wounds, Mike.

Speaker 1 After several agonizing minutes, paramedics arrived on scene and Charlie was gurneyed into an ambulance.

Speaker 2 One on his back makes six. Six stab winds.
You got

Speaker 2 two to the right jaw slash ear, one to the neck, one to the top part of his like a strap,

Speaker 2 one to the bicep, and one on the back.

Speaker 1 Charlie was in critical condition, and he was soon airlifted to the nearest trauma center where doctors and surgeons would attempt to save his life.

Speaker 1 Back at the cabin, deputies began the grim task of piecing together what had gone so violently wrong.

Speaker 2 Who all witnessed the stabbing? I saw everything. You saw everything?

Speaker 1 So, who else see it?

Speaker 2 You two, just you two? Okay,

Speaker 2 I got some detectives coming.

Speaker 1 Roughly 15 to 20 potential witnesses remained at the scene, all of them in their early 20s. Deputies corralled the group around a nearby fire pit and waited for detectives to arrive.

Speaker 1 When the inside of the cabin was searched, deputies found all the markings of a fun, college-like party. Decorations hung from the ceiling, beer bottles littered every surface.

Speaker 1 The kitchen sink overflowed with dishes, and a table in the living room showed signs of a recently played drinking game. Back outside, the first detectives pulled up and questioning began.

Speaker 2 So, first of all, what time did you get here? Um, I got here yesterday. Okay, so it's now almost six o'clock on Sunday morning.
I got here on Friday. Friday, okay.
I helped decorate and set up. Okay,

Speaker 2 so when you say decorate and set up, what was this? Uh, his 21st to 23rd birthday, Dalton. Okay, so this is Dalton's 23rd birthday.

Speaker 1 The two-story wood cabin had been rented for the weekend by 23-year-old Dalton Flagg as part of his birthday celebration.

Speaker 2 All right, so this is your birthday party? Yes, sir. Okay.
So walk me through. How long have you guys been here?

Speaker 2 We've been here the whole weekend.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 2 we got here Friday, like 4 p.m., I think it was.

Speaker 1 Dalton arrived at the cabin that Friday evening with his girlfriend and roommate.

Speaker 1 The three of them started setting up, decorating the space in anticipation of what they hoped would be a carefree weekend of partying with friends.

Speaker 1 Naturally, Dalton had sent out the invites, including one to 22-year-old Charles Starner, known to most as Charlie or Chuck.

Speaker 1 Charlie was a manager at a small pizzeria where he employed several of his friends. He was engaged and the father of a nine-month-old son.

Speaker 1 That night, Charlie showed up to a party with his fiancé and two close friends.

Speaker 2 So you get here tonight around 7 p.m. Yep.
Okay. You wrote down with Charlie, Caleb, and Rachel.
Yep.

Speaker 2 What happens when you guys get here? Everything is fine and dandy? Yeah, everything was fine. That kid wasn't even here when I first got here.

Speaker 2 He didn't show up for the kid that stabbed Charlie, wasn't here for hours when I was here, and everything was fine. Okay.

Speaker 1 The atmosphere at the cabin was everything you'd expect from a typical college-aged party. People were drinking heavily, some smoking weed, and a few others were openly using cocaine.

Speaker 1 The hot tub was in use, drinking games were underway, and everyone seemed to be having a great time.

Speaker 1 Until suddenly, they weren't.

Speaker 2 You said it was pretty chill. And then, how did we get to this? Honestly, I don't know.
Where were you at? I was inside and I just heard people screaming.

Speaker 2 So I ran out to look because obviously I'm nosy.

Speaker 2 But me and Ryan, like, heard them yelling, so we ran out to check it out. And they were just fighting, which...
Who's they?

Speaker 2 It was just a bunch of the guys. So there's more than two people fighting? It wasn't really fighting.
Everyone was just yelling at each other. And then

Speaker 2 we went inside because we didn't really think anything of it then we heard a bunch of screaming and i came out and that's when i saw like the guy i don't even know who he was so the guy you're talking about the person who was hurt or the person that was hurt i see him so you saw him bleeding where was he bleeding from um i think his neck i don't know i just seen blood like dripping down him and that freaked me out and i took off running into the woods because i was scared

Speaker 1 one of the first challenges detectives faced was that not everyone at the party had witnessed the stabbing.

Speaker 1 To make matters worse, many of the attendees were strangers to one another, having met for the first time that night.

Speaker 1 When questioned, several had trouble recalling names, making the investigation difficult to untangle.

Speaker 2 Do you know who did this? Or were you told someone?

Speaker 2 No, I know his name. Okay.
Isaac Pence. Isaac Pence.
I don't know how to spell it. Isaac Pence.
How do you know he's the one?

Speaker 2 Everyone said it. He was the one that drove the car, pulled the car out of here.
I don't know what kind of car. Did you see him leave? I've seen him peel out with the car.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Who was anybody with him?

Speaker 2 I think his fiancé.

Speaker 1 Despite the challenges, detectives managed to determine who had been stabbed. And perhaps, more importantly, who had done the stabbing.
Over and over, the partygoers pointed to one person,

Speaker 1 a young man named Isaac Pence.

Speaker 2 So you guys are hanging out. When does Isaac arrive?

Speaker 2 I couldn't tell you like an exact time.

Speaker 2 If I had to guess, I'd say

Speaker 2 11.

Speaker 2 Who's he arrived with? Sabra.

Speaker 2 And is that his

Speaker 2 fiancé, I think? I think their main age, maybe. I'm not positive on that part.
Okay, I know their dating age for sure.

Speaker 1 20-year-old Isaac Pence arrived at the cabin with his fiancée, Sabra Flagg, who was the sister of the birthday host, Dalton Flagg.

Speaker 1 Sabra was the only reason Isaac had been invited in the first place. And it didn't take long for detectives to learn that Isaac and Dalton had a rocky history.

Speaker 2 How long have her and Isaac been together? Like four to five years.

Speaker 2 So do you know Isaac? Yeah. Who is he? What do you mean? Like

Speaker 2 good person, I've a good person.

Speaker 2 When he's not drinking, yes. When he was drinking, no.
Isaac was drinking? Yes. Anytime he drinks he is very violent

Speaker 2 has isaac and oh never had bad bad blood before yes over what um because he just he doesn't treat saber well at all um yeah but they never got along um and i told like i like saber wanted to come and dawn's like

Speaker 2 Isaac would only allow her to come if he came with her and Dawn was like not okay with it but he said as long as he's not drinking but as soon as he came in the house he was redrinking has Isaac been in trouble before?

Speaker 2 For what?

Speaker 2 Drinking, for one. I know he's on probation for some.
He's not supposed to be drinking, and he is.

Speaker 1 By nearly all accounts, Isaac Pence had a reputation for being a violent drunk. He had only just recently been released from jail for assaulting Sabra and Dalton's mother.

Speaker 1 Dalton knew Isaac was in trouble.

Speaker 1 He didn't want him at the party. Especially not in a secluded cabin in the woods.
But to keep peace with his sister, Dalton gave in and allowed Isaac to attend.

Speaker 1 That would turn out to be a grave mistake.

Speaker 1 Who was

Speaker 2 Isaac with? Who did he sleep with? He, my sister, Sabrafly.

Speaker 2 She

Speaker 2 stays with Isaac and his parents.

Speaker 2 So she lives with Isaac and his parents? Yeah, and Isaac's had issues in the past.

Speaker 2 He's put his hands on my sister and he's just literally went to jail three months ago for putting his hands on my mom.

Speaker 2 How old's Isaac? Um,

Speaker 2 20, 21.

Speaker 1 By this point, detectives had started to piece together the key relationships and some of the night's events. But this information hadn't come quickly.

Speaker 1 Hours had passed, and partygoers were now sobering up.

Speaker 1 Many were growing restless and increasingly impatient with the process.

Speaker 2 I want to fucking go home. I've been sitting here for four fucking hours.

Speaker 2 I'm freezing my fucking

Speaker 2 cold sack off. Can I fucking hold on? We're not home.
We're not. I get it.
I'm fucking cold as fuck.

Speaker 1 Do you understand? Bro, why are you choking me?

Speaker 2 Why are you choking me? He's trying to get your Twitter.

Speaker 1 That guy was taken to jail for disrupting the scene of an emergency, and the interviews continued.

Speaker 1 As detectives continued to ask questions, they eventually learned how the party was turned into a scene of chaos and violence.

Speaker 2 Pushing other people, me and my girl were there. I was like, hey, bro, like, just leave.
Like, you're fine. You're good.
Like, just you're good. Just leave.

Speaker 2 Like, and then when he asked him to leave, he got super mad. They started raising their voices at each other.
And for some reason, he pushed a rising really hard, like, into a table. Okay.

Speaker 2 And then that was when things like really escalated. Because now Dalton was super mad because his girlfriend got pushed and they were just like screaming at each other.
He didn't want to leave.

Speaker 2 He came charging, pushed me on the ground

Speaker 2 and charged at Dalton. And then that's when Dalton came back at him and everyone pulled him off.
And then he started coming at everyone else in the house, and then that's when it went outside.

Speaker 1 Several witnesses explained that the violence started when Dalton asked Isaac to leave. In response, Isaac shoved Dalton's girlfriend, a risen, sending her crashing to the ground.

Speaker 1 The moment people saw Isaac put his hands on a woman, the atmosphere snapped. Voices exploded in anger, and the confrontation spilled outside onto the driveway of the cabin.

Speaker 2 He's going to get in trouble.

Speaker 1 A crowd quickly formed. A large group surrounded Isaac, telling him to leave.
At the same time, a smaller group held Dalton back, trying to stop him from launching into a fistfight with Isaac.

Speaker 1 Sorry to interrupt the flow of the story here, but I have a question to ask.

Speaker 1 What the hell's going on with the names at this party? Cray, Sabra, Horizon, Tekka, and Cinnamon. Just to name a few.

Speaker 1 What the hell?

Speaker 1 What kind of dope-smoking, bead-wearing, crystal-charging, music festival attending, double-wide living, minimum-wage-earning, Antifa-supporting, wannabe, hippie parents name these dumbass children?

Speaker 1 Way to set up your kin for success with a name like Cinnamon, by the way. Sure, that'll keep her off the poll.

Speaker 1 Next up on stage, Cinnamon!

Speaker 1 Anyway, Dalton was being held back by his friends who were telling him not to fight Isaac, while several others were shouting at Isaac, telling him to get into his car and pedal his little ass out of there.

Speaker 2 What did you see or observe from that time forward? A whole bunch of pushing, okay, shoving, yelling, pushing, yelling, shoving. Okay, and then what happened?

Speaker 2 He was essentially carried to his car by like three or four people trying to get him to like, there wasn't no him wanting to leave. Like, he was definitely

Speaker 2 it was more like a forceful, like, he had these, yeah, like, there was multiple guys grabbing him and trying to shove him in his own car, trying to get him to just be gone. Okay.

Speaker 2 And where is this Sabre? Yeah, Sabre got in the car with him. Into the passenger seat? Okay.

Speaker 1 Several guys dragged Isaac to the driver's side of his car. At about the same time, Isaac's fiancé, Sabra, hopped in the passenger seat of the same car.

Speaker 2 So at this point, they're in the car, and there's a couple people like banging on the windows.

Speaker 2 He

Speaker 2 gets mad and opens.

Speaker 2 And he opened the door and Charlie was one of the people that were trying to get him in the car and get him to leave.

Speaker 2 And he just happened to be the guy in front of the driver's door and just grabbed him for whatever reason and started stabbing him. Like it was like six times to

Speaker 2 I saw Charlie fall to the ground.

Speaker 2 Does he immediately get back in the car and leave?

Speaker 2 What's the next course of action? He just gets in his car, slams the door and spins his tires and drives up the driveway

Speaker 2 that kind of stuff that's crazy

Speaker 2 i walk inside and then i think like 10 minutes after they come out and he said he just stabbed him he just stabbed him what is going on what are you looking for she's like charlie just got stabbed

Speaker 1 when isaac was forced into his car he reached into the center console pulled out a small work knife, grabbed the nearest person, and just started stabbing.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's what I always do when I'm frustrated. His unlucky victim was Charlie Starner.
With no warning, Charlie was struck multiple times, including potentially fatal stabs to his back and neck.

Speaker 1 He collapsed to the ground, bleeding heavily, while Isaac slammed his car door shut and sped off with Sabra.

Speaker 1 You know, like the hummus.

Speaker 2 I was standing up on the porch and I watched him get stabbed right there next to my truck.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 Jimmy, the guy who's covered in blood,

Speaker 2 he carried him over here to the other side of my truck where that big pool of blood is.

Speaker 2 And I opened up the back of my truck and started rummaging through and grabbing my med kits.

Speaker 1 Among the guests at the party was a young woman named Amanda Chapman, who had a background in EMS.

Speaker 1 When Charlie went down, Amanda rushed to her truck, grabbed a medical kit, and began doing everything she could to help.

Speaker 2 Tonight was just not right, and that was terrifying. I don't understand completely.
Well, the two that were out here, can you identify both of them?

Speaker 2 So, Charlie's the one that I was the one who

Speaker 2 was in the car that stabbed him.

Speaker 2 I guess his girl took off with him. Okay.

Speaker 2 Everybody that's here right now, I really don't think anything was malicious. But the dude who fled, like, he was out to kill.

Speaker 1 Multiple people at the party called 911.

Speaker 1 As they waited, they hovered helplessly around Charlie, watching Amanda and a few others render what little aid they could.

Speaker 1 As Charlie was bleeding out on the ground, everyone hoped that help would get there in time.

Speaker 2 Did Charlie say anything?

Speaker 2 I heard no words come out of that man's mouth, and that's what I think that's what fucked me up the most. Was Charlie conscious or unconscious? For a while, he was conscious.

Speaker 2 I couldn't be outside for the rest of it. I couldn't see it.
I had to call his mom, let her know what's going on. When Charlie was conscious, he didn't say nothing at all.
He didn't say nothing.

Speaker 2 He didn't say nothing. He didn't say what happened.
No, he couldn't. He couldn't.
He couldn't. He was completely no.

Speaker 1 While first responders were en route and throughout the rest of the morning, Dalton's girlfriend exchanged text messages with Sabra, who was presumably still sitting in the passenger seat next to Isaac.

Speaker 2 Did you have any contact with the suspect or Sabre after they left here?

Speaker 2 She texted me and I texted her back. Okay.
What did the text message say?

Speaker 2 She started at 2.56.

Speaker 2 I'm going to need my shoes and my purse back. Hello.
I need you to answer right now. Hello.
I said, we have your shit. You'll get it tomorrow.
She said, I have to have it. What the hell was that? Huh?

Speaker 2 His fringe jumped him. I said, you're not getting it till tomorrow.
I said, you show up with you and Isaac. It's all going to be bad.

Speaker 1 What stood out most about this text exchange is what wasn't said. At no point did Sabra ask how Charlie was doing.

Speaker 1 Her only concern was retrieving her purse and a few other meaningless belongings she'd left behind at the cabin.

Speaker 2 She said, I'm going to need my glasses, shoes, and purse, or y'all going to prison. She said, the key to my goddamn work, and if I don't get it back, I'll call the fucking cops.

Speaker 2 And then she texts me at 4:32. I need my shit.
What's going on?

Speaker 1 Once paramedics arrived, Charlie was quickly rushed to a trauma center and prepared for emergency surgery.

Speaker 1 Back at the cabin, detectives got to work interviewing witnesses, searching the scene, and trying to understand exactly what had gone down.

Speaker 1 While doing this, they got some interesting news.

Speaker 2 Hey! Yeah.

Speaker 2 Allegedly, the suspect's on his way back here. Awesome.
So they went to the hotel room where Saber's mom is staying. She told him to get their shit and get out.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't know if she doesn't know if he's coming back to finish what he started or what. Oh, nice.

Speaker 1 The detectives learned that Isaac Pence was still furious and he was headed back to the cabin. Apparently, stabbing someone several times hadn't been enough for him.
He wanted more blood.

Speaker 1 He wanted to finish

Speaker 1 what he had started.

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Speaker 1 In the early morning hours of April 23rd, 2023, 22-year-old Charlie Starner was clinging to his life after being stabbed multiple times at a party at a secluded rental cabin in the woods of Sugar Grove, Ohio.

Speaker 1 Have I mentioned how nice Ohio is at this time of year? Ohio really is the heart of it all. When the heart isn't being stabbed, that is.

Speaker 1 As detectives scrambled to make sense of this chaos, Witness after witness identified the attacker as 20-year-old Isaac Pence.

Speaker 1 They also warned police that Isaac wasn't done. Apparently, he planned to return to the cabin to finish what he started.

Speaker 1 To prevent another wave of violence, officers were posted at the end of the cabin's driveway, where they braced for Isaac's return.

Speaker 1 But he never showed. By morning, police shifted gears and went looking for him.

Speaker 1 They found Isaac fast asleep at the home that he shared with his mother, stepfather, two younger siblings, and his fiancé, the infamous Sabra Flagg.

Speaker 1 Officers took both Isaac and Sabra into custody and began questioning Isaac's mom.

Speaker 2 Do you normally keep their children on a regular basis?

Speaker 2 Okay. Any history of drug use and abuse? No.

Speaker 2 How about alcohol? Yes. Between both of them, or one of them?

Speaker 2 Her, not so much, but you know, Isaac drinks just about every weekend. Would you say your son has anger issues? Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I mean, sometimes he does get really mad when he's drinking.

Speaker 1 When detectives arrived at Isaac's home, they were met with a few surprises. First, they discovered that Isaac and Sabra had two young children, a one-year-old and a four-month-old.

Speaker 1 Yet neither of them seemed to be carrying themselves like parents. Are you surprised, or are you starting to recognize patterns yet?

Speaker 1 The day-to-day care care of the children fell mostly to Isaac's mother, who also informed investigators that her son struggled with alcoholism and a history of violent behavior.

Speaker 1 Nuh duh.

Speaker 2 How long have they lived here with whom?

Speaker 2 Isaac's been here his whole life.

Speaker 2 Sabra has been here on and off for the last

Speaker 1 two years, three years.

Speaker 2 Is that about how long they've been together?

Speaker 2 They've been together four years, four years. Okay.

Speaker 1 Once they gathered enough background information on Isaac and Sabra, detectives turned their focus to the night of the stabbing. They asked Isaac's parents what they knew about the party at the cabin.

Speaker 2 Do you know where Isaac and Sabra were at last night? I have no clue. Okay.

Speaker 2 Do you know what time they arrived back at the home? They showed up at about five o'clock because they woke me up beating on the door.

Speaker 2 Okay, so they were beating on the door, arrived back here at about 5 a.m. Did they say anything to you when they came in? Not really.
Did you notice anything out of the norm?

Speaker 2 It just seemed like they were like irritated, like mad.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 Another thing that took detectives by surprise was the state of the home. You see, it was completely filthy.
There was trash thrown about everywhere, and the stench of urine and dog shit was just

Speaker 1 overwhelming. Then again, this was Ohio.

Speaker 2 How long has your house been like this?

Speaker 2 So,

Speaker 2 as far as you know, a hole here, there, in the wall, and this and that trash in the yard or what? I'm talking trash in the house. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we've had a hell time trying to keep everything cleaned up since, you know, we don't have any health at all. And, like, I'm recuperating from a heart attack.

Speaker 2 We just had a heart attack, and I was the one that had a tester,

Speaker 2 and it's ammonia level in your house is ridiculous.

Speaker 1 Concerned by the smell, detectives tested for ammonia levels inside the home. The results were off the charts, which is an extreme health risk, especially for children.

Speaker 1 When asked about it, Isaac's parents pointed the finger squarely at Isaac and Sabra.

Speaker 2 But the whole dog thing that they've had in that bedroom,

Speaker 2 the whole time that they've had that dog here, they don't take it out to use the bathroom or nothing else, just use the bathroom everywhere.

Speaker 1 After removing Isaac and Sabra from their disgusting home, officers transported both of them to the sheriff's office. Once there, Sabra was the first to be interviewed.

Speaker 2 My brother's the one who's threw the party for his birthday, right? Yes, for his birthday. And what's your brother's name? Dalton Black.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And I already talked it with him and I was like, you know, because my brother and Isaac have had some issues in the past, but they were trying to get over it because my brother wanted to be more involved in my life.

Speaker 2 He wanted to be more involved in his nephew's life. And I was like, Well, he's part of my life.
You know, I love him. I want to work things out with him.
He's the father of both of my kids.

Speaker 2 So he was like, Yeah, that's fine. You guys can come.
You know, just no drama. I was like, Yeah, he's fine.
He's probably not even drinking.

Speaker 2 And if he does, he's only going to drink a little bit because we have to go home. I have to open.

Speaker 1 Saber began her interview by explaining how she and Isaac ended up at her brother Dalton's birthday party at the cabin.

Speaker 1 She admitted Dalton didn't want Isaac there, but she had convinced him that there would be no drama. That promise, of course, was broken.

Speaker 1 Sabra went on to describe how the night changed from fun and happy times to horrible, bloody violence.

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, I hear this bit like, you know, arguing. I was like, oh my gosh, please, it's not with Isaac.
I go out and I hear like a bunch of different stories.

Speaker 2 Isaac and a few other people are saying that he accidentally pushed Orizon, which is my brother's girlfriend. Then my brother's sitting here saying he intentionally pushed her.

Speaker 2 I don't think he intentionally pushed her. He's not that type of person.
He's not violent, especially with girls. So I know he's not that type of person.

Speaker 2 And they're sitting here arguing. I'm trying to talk to Isaac to calm him down because I'm like one of the only people that can calm him down.

Speaker 2 I'm like, okay, let's just, you know, if anything, let's just go in your car, sit for like a couple hours, and then we can go home. And

Speaker 2 then they followed us outside.

Speaker 2 They all started like getting like trying to fight isaac all at the same time um i don't know exactly who it was because there were so many people but i know that there was like three or four people trying to fight isaac at the same time sabra's version of events clashed with just about every other witness according to her isaac wasn't the aggressor he was the victim

Speaker 1 Backed into a corner and forced to defend himself against a group of guys just looking for a fight out of nowhere. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 And it was like 10 guys,

Speaker 2 all of my brother's friends. And this guy, I think his name is Clay, he pushed Isaac.
And Isaac went flying back into a car.

Speaker 2 And Isaac, I don't know if he like pushed him or back or what he did, but I tried to intervene. And I was like, he's just trying to protect himself.
Like, there's like 10 guys jumping in.

Speaker 2 And I was like, I was like, it's not his fault. and somehow I fall and they're like trampling all over me I have a big bruise on my knee and then I still hear them fighting over here

Speaker 2 and Isaac he got in the car and he goes Sabra come on come on come on

Speaker 2 then I got in the car and he drove off because I think people were coming back at him and he was like okay I'm done and so we just drove off There was one glaring omission in Sabra's story.

Speaker 1 Did you catch it? I'll give you a hint. It has to do with pointy things going stabby, stabby.

Speaker 1 Weird how she missed the most interesting part of the story, huh? Naturally, detectives pressed her about this.

Speaker 2 I didn't even know someone got stabbed until way after we left. And Isaac was like, I think I stabbed that dude.
I think I stabbed him. I was like, what the heck do you mean?

Speaker 2 He was like, I think I stabbed him. I was like, oh my God.
Isaac was like, you literally ran away. Like, that's not what you should do.

Speaker 1 Sabra claimed she hadn't seen anyone get stabbed and that she only heard about it afterwards. She wasn't too curious about it either.
In fact, she doesn't seem to be too curious about anything really.

Speaker 1 When asked where she and Isaac went after fleeing the cabin, she said they made a quick stop at a friend's house, someone named Justin, before heading home.

Speaker 2 So when you were in Justin's house, what did you guys do there?

Speaker 2 So we just stopped there to look at Isaac's car and then I went in and peed or used the bathroom and then I I came out, and I was looking at Isaac's car with him and Justin.

Speaker 2 They smoked a cigarette, and then we left, and then we went straight home.

Speaker 1 This brief stop at Justin's would eventually become an important part of this case, but more on that later. After questioning Sabra, detectives moved on to Isaac.

Speaker 2 Who do you live there with? My mom, my stepdad. Okay.

Speaker 2 I got a little brother, a little sister. Okay.
And then Sabra and my two kids. And who's Sabra? My fiancé.
Okay, all right. And how old are your children? One is one and one is four months.

Speaker 2 How far did you make it through school?

Speaker 2 About,

Speaker 2 I think, 11th grade. 11th grade? Okay.
Did you get your GED or anything? No, I went straight into concrete as soon as I turned 18. Okay.

Speaker 2 And I

Speaker 2 wanted to go and get a different career.

Speaker 2 But every time I go and I start a different job, it's like, oh, well, just pull it off, pull it off, pull it off. Okay.
So I'm wanting to at some point. Okay.

Speaker 1 Detectives got more background info from Isaac, this overachiever.

Speaker 1 His criminal background wasn't extensive, but it was certainly concerning.

Speaker 2 Have you been in trouble or anything at all? Yeah. Okay.
Well, for what?

Speaker 2 I got an assault charge on her mom. An assault charge on her mom? Yeah.
How long ago was that?

Speaker 2 Uh,

Speaker 2 probably six months. Yeah, I cannot win with this family.

Speaker 1 I cannot win with this family, he said after admitting to an assault charge on his girlfriend's mom. You know, his kid's grandma.

Speaker 1 He says this matter-of-factly and completely unironically.

Speaker 1 I swear, you'll never convince a retard they're not a genius.

Speaker 1 Going forward, you'll start to see a pattern here with Isaac if you're smart enough to see patterns. Nothing is ever his fault.

Speaker 2 So, sounds like you guys guys came up here for a birthday party, is that correct? Yeah.

Speaker 2 So whose birthday it was now?

Speaker 2 It was her brother's birthday.

Speaker 2 Me and her brother never got along. Okay.

Speaker 2 I was sitting there the whole time. I was like, I know this is a bad idea.
I want to make her happy. So I was like, you know, I will try to put my pride aside.

Speaker 2 Let's go ahead and go.

Speaker 2 We were there. Everything was good.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 everything was completely fine. And

Speaker 2 we're having a good time.

Speaker 1 Isaac claimed that he didn't want to go to Dalton's birthday party, but out of the goodness of his heart, he decided that being there would make Sabra happy. What a selfless stand-up guy he is.

Speaker 2 We were all standing right here in the hallway, and someone ended up pushing me. So I pushed him back.
Well, Dalton thought that I pushed his girlfriend of Isa,

Speaker 2 and so he got all pissed off. That's when everyone tried to jump me.

Speaker 2 Well, I kind of know what I'm doing a little bit.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I started throwing them to the side.

Speaker 2 I went outside, and that's when they started trying to come at me. It was all of them at once.

Speaker 2 And so I was just tossing them to the side, and they all just kept coming. So I went to my car, I shut the door.
I was telling Sabre, I was like, hey, if you want to go, then we're going.

Speaker 2 Well, they came and they got them past her car and they took her sunglasses, or not her actual glasses, and her purse out, trying to keep her to stay there.

Speaker 2 And I was like, well, with everything going on, like, I'm going to leave.

Speaker 1 Much like Sabra, Isaac's version of events clashed with every other witness.

Speaker 1 That's because absolutely no murder in the history of mankind has ever started with a completely innocent dude getting pushed and mobbed at a festive gathering for absolutely no reason.

Speaker 1 But don't let common sense smack you across the face.

Speaker 2 Once they started sitting there trying to bust the glass to get to me, that's when I pulled out a knife. I was like, hey,

Speaker 2 you need to back up.

Speaker 2 And they didn't want to listen. No one wanted to listen.

Speaker 2 So you were in your car. So what did you do? Did you open the car to go back up? No, they ended up opening my car door.
They did? Yeah.

Speaker 2 It was... Two to three guys were sitting there, and they were just yanking on it.
I was trying to hold it as good as I could. They didn't want to listen.
So I was like, listen.

Speaker 2 And just poking out a little bit. Okay.

Speaker 2 Not, like, I didn't try to do it to physically hurt anybody really bad, but I did it just to like poke, like, hey, I have a knife. Come down.

Speaker 2 They wouldn't stop. They just kept going.
So I tried to stab the one guy in the arm just so they would get up.

Speaker 2 So he was right there beside you? Yeah, he opened my corridor and he's coming trying to grab me. He's coming to try to grab you.
Yeah. That's why I stabbed his arm.

Speaker 2 Well, as soon as I stabbed him in the arm, they left.

Speaker 2 The other two guys took off completely. Okay?

Speaker 2 And that's when Saber got in the car and I took off.

Speaker 1 Isaac also claimed that he only stabbed Charlie in the arm. But the detectives obviously knew better.
After all, they weren't retarded like Isaac.

Speaker 1 They, of course, knew Charlie had been stabbed multiple times all over his body. This was a careless lie on Isaac's part, and one that would make him look

Speaker 1 way more guilty.

Speaker 2 So you stabbed the guy in the arm one time?

Speaker 2 I think it was twice.

Speaker 1 Twice?

Speaker 2 Are you sure it wasn't more than that? Because there's more stab wounds than that.

Speaker 2 I didn't think there was

Speaker 2 because I tried to just get him to go away.

Speaker 2 I was not trying to hurt him. Didn't want anything bad, bad to happen.

Speaker 2 I just wanted him to go away. Okay.

Speaker 2 Except because there's 15 guys that are trying to jump in.

Speaker 1 Stabbing someone as a preventative measure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 After giving this bullshit version of the stabbing, Isaac went on to tell two more lies that would later come back to haunt him.

Speaker 1 So, did you go? Where'd you go after that? I went straight home.

Speaker 2 Okay. Your knife.

Speaker 2 You don't know exactly where you put it? They're looking for it in your car right now.

Speaker 2 They have no clue where it is. It's either in my car or it's in on that property.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Not only did Isaac's story contradict at least 10 other witness statements, but it didn't even align with Sabra's story.

Speaker 1 These two idiots couldn't even get their story straight. He told detectives that after the stabbing, he went straight home, conveniently leaving out the stop at Justin's house.

Speaker 1 Naturally, detectives were curious about why he would lie about that.

Speaker 1 They planned to reach out to Justin and question him about Isaac's early morning visit to his house. But before they got the chance, Justin called them.

Speaker 2 I told him he needed to leave and turn himself in because he can't just make something like that go away.

Speaker 2 And he threw the knife over there.

Speaker 1 Justin told detectives that Isaac tossed a knife into a bush near Justin's driveway. Police then recovered the weapon, which was still spattered with Charlie's blood.

Speaker 1 In a follow-up interview, Justin also revealed something else. Isaac had talked about returning to the cabin to do even more damage.

Speaker 2 He did say stuff like that at your house?

Speaker 2 Kind of. It was more of like he just wanted to go back and beat up the other people that were trying to jump him.
Okay, all right.

Speaker 1 As the investigation deepened, more of Isaac's lies unraveled. Detectives learned that after ditching the knife, he and Sabra made yet another stop, this time to visit Sabra's mother.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 they did end up coming to your place? Yeah, they were there

Speaker 2 15, 20, and I don't even think 20 minutes. He's just talking about how he was going home to get what he needed, and he was going out out there and finished it all off, finished the rest of it off.

Speaker 1 By now, detectives had gathered multiple witness statements that pretty much proved both Isaac and Sabra had lied about what led up to the stabbing, the stabbing itself, and what they did afterwards.

Speaker 1 But the most damning evidence was still to come.

Speaker 2 There is a camera on cabin six. Is that correct? Yes, sir.
Would it have been recording at all or doing any kind of recording last night? It records

Speaker 2 video, but not audio. You're not allowed to record audio.

Speaker 2 I need that video preserved, and I need to get that video here at our office as soon as I can get it.

Speaker 1 Detectives contacted the owner of the rental cabin, who turned over surveillance footage from a motion-activated camera mounted on the front porch.

Speaker 1 Though it didn't capture the stabbing, it revealed the moments leading up to it. The footage showed what several witnesses had already described.

Speaker 1 Near the front porch of the cabin, Dalton's friends physically held Dalton away from Isaac to keep him from fighting. At the same time, a group surrounded Isaac, gesturing for him to leave.

Speaker 1 There's no audio, but the body language is clear. They weren't looking for a fight.
Then Isaac threw a wild punch at the crowd. It missed.
Someone shoved him back against a parked car.

Speaker 1 A few partygoers then grabbed Isaac and carried him towards his car, right out of the camera's view. See how that series of events actually makes sense? Or are you also from Ohio?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm talking to you.

Speaker 1 This footage was pretty important as it showed the partygoers were not trying to hurt Isaac. They just wanted him to leave before things got worse.

Speaker 1 But this wasn't the only video that detectives recovered.

Speaker 2 I flew off the porch so fast and I ended up on the hood of my truck because I thought Isaac was going to hit my car.

Speaker 2 and I captured the entire stabbing.

Speaker 1 Remember Amanda Chapman? She's the young woman who rushed to Charlie's side after the stabbing. She had the presence of mind to pull out her phone and hit record when the fight started.

Speaker 1 What you're about to hear comes from Amanda's cell phone. These are the final seconds just before the stabbing.

Speaker 2 Hit my car! Watch it! it!

Speaker 2 Get in!

Speaker 2 He's in your car!

Speaker 1 Ugh, savages.

Speaker 1 Amanda's footage begins with Isaac halfway sitting in the driver's seat, his door cracked open, and his one foot on the ground outside of his car.

Speaker 1 Several people are trying to close the door, but Isaac resists, pushing back against them. People are shouting, get the hell out of here and get in your car.

Speaker 1 No one is threatening Isaac. No one is swinging.
They just want him gone. Charlie Starner is among the voices.
The video shows him bracing against the door, trying to keep Isaac in the car.

Speaker 1 Then, without warning, Isaac grabs a knife from the center console.

Speaker 1 He stands, slips partway out of the car, and opens the blade. What follows is horrifying.

Speaker 1 In the audio, you can hear the metallic click of the knife being opened right before Isaac swings again and again, plunging the blade into Charlie's back, neck, and anywhere that Isaac can reach.

Speaker 1 Fair warning, this next bit of audio is not an easy listen.

Speaker 1 The video cuts off, but witnesses filled in the rest. After the stabbing, Charlie collapsed.
His friends dragged him away while Isaac slammed the car door shut and sped off with Zabra.

Speaker 1 Or whatever the fuck her name is. Later, more surveillance footage surfaced, this time from Justin's house.
On it, Isaac can be seen tossing the knife into a bush before disappearing into the night.

Speaker 1 Isaac had already lied to detectives during his first interview, but now, armed armed with this overwhelming evidence, they questioned him a second time and they had some devastating news.

Speaker 2 What you did last night is fucked up. You killed somebody.

Speaker 2 He's dead. And then he died.
Yeah, he died at 8.31 this morning. The world lost a father.
He leaves behind a nine and a half month old son named Jed,

Speaker 2 okay?

Speaker 2 A mother and father lost their son. A girlfriend lost her boyfriend that she held compression on for several minutes waiting for a medic to get there to try and save his life.

Speaker 2 He died at Grant this morning and you're facing murder charges.

Speaker 1 Roughly five and a half hours after the stabbing, Charlie Starner died at Grant Medical Center in Columbus, Ohio.

Speaker 1 Despite the doctor's best efforts and emergency surgery, Charlie's heart gave out.

Speaker 1 With his death, The case shifted and got a whole lot more serious.

Speaker 1 Both Isaac Pence and Sabra Flagg were now facing murder charges in a lifetime behind bars.

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Speaker 1 On April 23rd, 2023, 20-year-old Isaac Pence and his fiancée Sabra Flagg were taken into police custody after a night of violence at a cabin party that left 22-year-old Charlie Starner dead.

Speaker 1 Isaac and Sabra lied repeatedly during their first interviews with detectives, hoping to cover their tracks.

Speaker 1 But when detectives brought them back for a second round, this time armed with overwhelming evidence, their lies began to unravel.

Speaker 1 They started with Sabra and quickly broke the tragic news that Charlie was dead.

Speaker 2 So, mother to mother, you love your children, right? Yes, girls. Okay, and you want to see your kids again someday, right?

Speaker 2 Because today, somebody's actions made it so a mother lost her son, a father lost his son,

Speaker 2 somebody lost their boyfriend, okay?

Speaker 2 Several friends lost another friend who bled bled out at the hands of someone that you care about

Speaker 2 and you know something.

Speaker 2 I really I don't

Speaker 2 you were there. Yeah, but I didn't

Speaker 2 I didn't know he got stabbed. I didn't I didn't know that until after he we left.

Speaker 2 I swear

Speaker 2 if you're trying to protect this man,

Speaker 2 you're gonna go down as an accomplice for murder. I'm not, I promise.

Speaker 2 You know something.

Speaker 2 And your allegiance to this man is gonna get you nowhere. Because let me tell you, he's going to prison.
I didn't.

Speaker 2 I swear on everything. I did not know he got stabbed until after we left.
I'm not trying to protect him. So, what did he say after he stabbed him? Because you guys drove away together.

Speaker 2 He had to have said something. He didn't.
He really didn't. He said,

Speaker 2 I don't even think he said anything. He just got in the car.
I got in the car. I didn't know.
And I didn't know until 10 or so minutes later that he said,

Speaker 2 I think I stopped someone or I stabbed someone, something along the lines of that. I didn't know.
Because if I would have known it, I wouldn't have left. I promise.

Speaker 1 Detectives confronted Sabra with the harsh reality of her situation.

Speaker 1 But she continued to resist coming clean. She maintained her efforts to downplay Isaac's behavior and minimize what he had done.

Speaker 2 He died. He's dead.
He's gone. I know.
I'm not bragging.

Speaker 2 I would have done that.

Speaker 2 Your honesty today is

Speaker 2 the paramount of what we need now, okay? I spoke with your mother on the phone.

Speaker 2 So did I. I'm not joking.
Your mom wants you to be honest. I'm not.

Speaker 2 I don't know. You know he's violent against women, correct? You've been violent before against women, correct? He was violent against your own mama.
Talking about Isaac.

Speaker 2 So yes, he did push my mom.

Speaker 2 He did what? He pushed my mom. Pushed your mom? Because he went to court for it.

Speaker 2 You told me earlier that he would never do that to a woman, correct? I totally forgot about my mom. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 It's your mom. How can you forget about your mom? You're trying to protect him.
I'm not.

Speaker 2 I'm going to tell you that I talked to his parents and they said that he's an explosive, angry, violent drunk. He is.
And

Speaker 2 he is.

Speaker 2 He's never been

Speaker 2 aggressive to me.

Speaker 2 He just... He gets aggressive and he'll like he punches back when she'll he he does stupid things when he's drunk.
I'm always the first to admit that.

Speaker 1 This was another lie.

Speaker 1 Out of all the detective interviews, Sabra was the last one. The very last person to admit that Isaac had a habit of becoming violent when he drank.

Speaker 2 I'm going to tell you right now that my specialty is domestic violence, sexual assault, and crimes against children. And the living conditions that your children are in are a crime.

Speaker 2 A deplorable, sickening crime. I'm 35 years old and I could barely breathe in that house.
I went to where you sleep.

Speaker 2 Like, do you think that this is normal? That this is an okay situation? Is this what you want your babies growing up in? Definitely not. We were trying to save up for an apartment or a house.

Speaker 2 We were just trying to find somewhere to go of our own because we don't.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't. They blame the mess on Isaac and you.

Speaker 2 There's dog feces everywhere.

Speaker 2 The ammonia in that house is horrible.

Speaker 2 We've made a referral to have your children emergency removed.

Speaker 2 I'm going to tell you that.

Speaker 2 The living conditions, the trash, the bugs, the cobwebs, the lack of running water, that's, it's not normal. Your babies are going to get sick.

Speaker 2 And if you care anything about your babies, take to heart.

Speaker 2 What Lieutenant McKnight is telling you. I'm going to tell you, you know how I know you're full of shit?

Speaker 2 You went to your mom's, you went to Justin's all before you went back to the house. I talked to your mom.
I did go to my mom's. I totally forgot.
I am so sorry.

Speaker 2 Are you forgetting because you were drunk? Are you forgetting because you were high? No. She's forgetting because she doesn't want to tell us the truth.

Speaker 1 Sabra was smacked with more and more evidence that exposed her bullshit. And it just kept coming.

Speaker 2 You told your mom you were going to come back to the house, as a matter of fact.

Speaker 2 You said you were going to stop by Isaac's house and you guys were coming back to the cabin because you were going to get your shit.

Speaker 2 I don't, you texted, you texted Horizon. I saw the messages.
You said, I need my purse, I need my shoes, I need my glasses. If I don't get those things back, somebody, I'm calling the cops.

Speaker 2 Those were your priorities, not, hey, my man stabbed somebody. How's that kid's condition? Not once today have you asked about how he was.
I didn't.

Speaker 2 You have no care for his son. I didn't.

Speaker 2 I swear. I only asked one time.

Speaker 2 Oh, did you know that he has a 10-month-old 10-month-old son? I didn't. Named Jet.
I honestly had no clue.

Speaker 2 So now you left another baby without a parent, just like your kids are going to be left without their parents, because you guys are going to go sit in prison for the next 25 years to life for murder.

Speaker 1 When faced with a lengthy prison sentence, the only thing these idiots understand, it seemed like the detectives had finally broken through to Sabra.

Speaker 1 And she agreed to tell the full truth. At least that's what she claimed.

Speaker 2 It's time to

Speaker 2 All we're asking for you to do is the truth. The only thing you have is your word.
And you're not telling us the whole truth right now. Okay, I'll start.
I promise.

Speaker 2 What did you see about the stabbing?

Speaker 2 I didn't see, and I'm being completely truthful on everything.

Speaker 2 I didn't see anyone get stabbed. I didn't see anyone fall to the floor.
I didn't see anything.

Speaker 1 When someone says they're being completely truthful, that's a sure sign they're not.

Speaker 1 Sabra continued to insist that she hadn't witnessed the stabbing, and the cell phone footage somewhat supports her claim.

Speaker 1 Though the video is dark and grainy, it seems to show Sabra distracted, focused on something else, and not looking in Isaac's direction when he attacked Charlie.

Speaker 1 It's possible she didn't realize a stabbing had taken place until after they fled the scene. That said,

Speaker 1 there is a moment just before the stabbing where Sabra reaches into the center console, and it looks as though she may be handing something to Isaac.

Speaker 1 This raised the question,

Speaker 1 did Sabra provide the murder weapon? Unfortunately, the view of the center console is obstructed, so we're not likely to get an answer to that question.

Speaker 1 In truth, Once Sabra agreed to be completely honest, her story didn't change very much. The biggest shift was in how she talked about Isaac.

Speaker 1 Faced with a looming threat of prison time, she suddenly seemed far more willing to throw him under the bus.

Speaker 2 Me and Bri go downstairs because we were wanting to go in the hot tub. And I was like, well, I don't know if Isaac will freak out or not because he was, he's very, you know, he doesn't like

Speaker 2 if I'm like in a bathing suit around a bunch of guys, he's very jealous. So controlling.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Then

Speaker 2 all of a sudden I hear people arguing constantly and I'm like, what the heck is going on? So we all run back into

Speaker 2 the house, and it's like it's a big huddle of people. I'm trying to figure out who who was arguing, and then I realized it was Isaac.

Speaker 2 I didn't know who he was arguing with.

Speaker 2 They were like trying to push him out, and I was like, okay, let's just go. Like, let's just go.

Speaker 2 And he was sitting, he's like, no, just shut the fuck up. I'm sitting here arguing with people.
He was sort of cussing other people out. I'm just like, come on, let's go.
And I was crying.

Speaker 2 I was like, just please, let's go.

Speaker 1 And he was like, no, fuck this fuck that fuck everyone unlike her first telling sabra now admitted that isaac had been the aggressor at the party surprise surprise this version of events was far closer to the truth did he tell you where he stabbed him no he said that he thought he stabbed him in the arm that's what he said

Speaker 2 and i was like okay like did you stab him anywhere else I don't think so. Do you know that this gentleman was stabbed six times? I did not know that.

Speaker 2 He was was stabbed in the jaw right here, in the side of his neck, around his back, twice in his chest, and another one in between his head and his neck. Oh my god.

Speaker 2 He shouldn't have stabbed anybody. It should have been a calm, cool, collected night.
This was one night that me and him didn't have any kids.

Speaker 2 I mean, I know that you guys hardly ever have your kids because Ginger told me she's raising your kids. You guys go and do however you want, whenever you want.
She's stuck with these kids.

Speaker 2 She's raised all of her own. I know.
You know, you guys are going out and drinking and living your lives up like you don't have kids. And this made me realize I need to step up and be a better mom.

Speaker 2 I mean, I hate to be the bear bad news, but you're not going to get the opportunity for a long, long time.

Speaker 2 Not only is the state going to have custody of your children, you're going to jail today. Am I really? Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 For not telling us full truth. I didn't.
If I have my way, you're going as an accomplice to murder.

Speaker 1 With our updated story on record, this dumb pitch was handcuffed and taken to jail. Next to face off with detectives was her fiancé, Isaac Pence.

Speaker 2 You were at a house party, kind of walked me through the events of the evening. Well, throughout tonight, it was all completely fine.

Speaker 2 Until everyone got way too drunk, I was standing in the hallway, and someone got in my face. So I pushed them out of the way.

Speaker 2 And then that's when about 15 of them all wanted to come outside and try and jump me. And who got in your face? I'm not even sure who it was.
Okay. Who did you push out of the way?

Speaker 2 I pushed that person out of the way and they fell into a rice and they tried to say that I pushed her arrest.

Speaker 2 Because as soon as she got touched, everyone just flipped. Because oh, you just pushed her

Speaker 2 and started running at me.

Speaker 1 At this point, Isaac was completely unaware of the mountain of evidence that detectives had gathered against him. And he didn't know that Charlie Starner had died.

Speaker 1 So naturally, Isaac stuck to his lies.

Speaker 2 After I get in my car, they all started trying to rip my door open.

Speaker 2 And once they got the door open, I just grabbed a knife real quick. I was like, go, get away.
And they weren't listening. So I went and said, I tried to put him in the arm.

Speaker 2 Okay. You stab him once in the arm, and what happens after that? He kept coming, so I stabbed him again.

Speaker 2 So you stab him a second time, and what happens?

Speaker 2 I'm pretty sure that he left. I kind of blacked out after I got him the second time because I sat him on some shit.

Speaker 2 And then I just kind of blacked out. I think I just said him twice and then left.

Speaker 1 Conveniently, Isaac slipped into the tired excuse of blacking out.

Speaker 1 Funny how sharp his memory had stayed right up until the point where he stabbed someone to death.

Speaker 2 Take off from there, and where do you go? Oh,

Speaker 2 you think.

Speaker 1 Try that again.

Speaker 2 No. Okay, so we went to Justin's house for a second.
Okay. And then from Justin's house, went to her mom's house.

Speaker 2 Then we went home.

Speaker 2 So, I'm going to tell you the only thing you have left in this world is your integrity. You know what integrity is?

Speaker 1 Do you know what integrity is?

Speaker 1 I love that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, your honesty.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to tell you that I have found about 40 loopholes already in your story. The last thing I want is your bullshit.
Okay?

Speaker 2 What you did last night is fucked up. You killed somebody.

Speaker 2 He's dead. And I died.
Yeah, he died at 8.31 this morning. The world lost a father.
He leaves behind a nine and a half month old son named Jet.

Speaker 2 Okay?

Speaker 2 A mother and father lost their son. A girlfriend lost her boyfriend that she held compression on for several minutes waiting for a medic to get there to try and save his life.

Speaker 2 He died at Grant this morning and you're facing murder charges. charges.

Speaker 2 He did because you didn't stab him twice. You stabbed him multiple times.

Speaker 2 Way more than twice.

Speaker 2 I've talked to your mom. I know you were a very violent, explosive person.
I know you drink almost every weekend.

Speaker 2 You left her in the care and custody of your two children, Draco and Whalen, who are 13 months and four months old. I've been inside your bedroom.
I've been inside your car.

Speaker 2 I've had a very deep conversation with your girlfriend, your girlfriend's mother, and everyone that was at that cabin. You get one shot at this with me, and that's it.
You want to start over?

Speaker 2 Let's go.

Speaker 1 Detectives hit Isaac with the same reality check they'd given to Sabra.

Speaker 1 Afterwards, he appeared slightly more willing to tell the truth, but much like Sabra, he couldn't stop trying to minimize his actions.

Speaker 2 How much did you drink last night? Um,

Speaker 2 I think I drank a 12-pack of Miller. I took a couple shots of Hennessy and a bottle of uh green,

Speaker 2 it's like green sour apple snops.

Speaker 2 You drank a lot of alcohol, knowing that you have an explosive personality when you're drunk.

Speaker 2 And if I tell you that I have literally witness statements, written witness statements, of you two-handed pushing a rising. That's what they're trying to say.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And you're telling me that that's not true? I don't think that I pushed her. Is it possible that you could have pushed her and you blacked out? Given amount, the copious amounts of alcohol you drank?

Speaker 2 I could have, but I really, I do not believe that I did. Do you think it's okay to put your hands on a female? No.
Ever? No. I have six sisters.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Do you think it'd be okay for your sons to do the same? No. Would you like it if they'll unshove Sabra?

Speaker 1 Now, I remind you, this is the same guy that had just recently gotten out of jail for assaulting his baby mom's mother, his children's grandmother.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 take that with a grain of something. Isaac claimed that he didn't or couldn't recall shoving Dalton's girlfriend to the ground, which was the act that ignited the whole night's chaos.

Speaker 1 Unfortunately for him, multiple witnesses, including Dalton's girlfriend, said that he did.

Speaker 1 After Isaac shoved Arizon, Dalton understandably exploded with anger. And from there, the knight spiraled out of control.

Speaker 2 Dalton comes to you and says, What?

Speaker 2 He was just freaking out. I knew he was going to beat my ass and everything.
And then once he did that, everyone else jumped in. And

Speaker 2 there was about five, ten people.

Speaker 2 And we went outside.

Speaker 2 And they were all trying to hit me.

Speaker 2 What if I tell you that I have surveillance video of them just saying it's time to leave? it's time to leave?

Speaker 2 No, because when we went, because that's where I've got all this, that's where they're hitting me.

Speaker 2 Well, a scuffle ensues, but they're trying to push you out of the cabin. And Sabra's telling you it's time to go.
Oh, I don't remember it. Okay.

Speaker 1 Once again, Isaac's selective memory failed him, but the evidence was clear. Nobody at the party wanted more violence.
Witness after witness confirmed that everyone simply wanted Isaac to leave.

Speaker 2 In the house, I was trying to stop him from fighting and screaming at each other, and we were just trying to get him to leave, Isaac. Like, everybody was just telling that kid to leave.

Speaker 1 Surveillance footage from the cabin backed up the witness statements, showing several people dragged Isaac toward his car, trying to get him away from the situation.

Speaker 2 And when you get in your car, what happens? That's right, when you drag the knife.

Speaker 2 He's pulling on the door, I think.

Speaker 2 I will tell you that I have a footprint that tells me they were trying to close the door.

Speaker 2 Does this sound familiar now?

Speaker 2 You're trying to get back out of the car, you have one foot out,

Speaker 2 and/or you're trying to push open the door, and somebody takes a foot and closes the door. I have a footprint to corroborate that, and a dent in the side of your equinox

Speaker 2 that says they were trying to get you back in the car. Okay, do you remember any of that? No.

Speaker 2 At what point do you reach for the night?

Speaker 2 I'm not completely sure.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And you, what happens when you grab this knife?

Speaker 2 I just start stabbing him.

Speaker 2 How many times do you think you stabbed him? I don't know.

Speaker 2 Okay. Did you say anything as you were stabbing him? I couldn't tell you.

Speaker 2 Did you say anything after you stabbed him? I think I just left.

Speaker 1 Not only did the physical evidence contradict Isaac's claims that he was being attacked, but Amanda Chapman's cell phone video clearly showed the exact opposite.

Speaker 1 People were pushing on Isaac's car door, trying to shut it. They weren't trying to pull him out.

Speaker 1 Isaac was the only one looking for a fight, shoving back and trying to force his way out of the car.

Speaker 1 Tragically, he succeeded with a knife in his hand.

Speaker 2 Because what was your next move when you left that cabin?

Speaker 2 Went to my buddy's house.

Speaker 2 And what did you say when you got there?

Speaker 2 I don't know. What if I tell you that I have you on surveillance at his house and I have all the camera footage? And you literally look at Justin and say, I just fucking stabbed this guy.

Speaker 2 Is that right, Bo?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay,

Speaker 2 what do you do with the weapon when you're there?

Speaker 2 Because certainly it wasn't in the car or at the scene like you told the detectives.

Speaker 2 You knew exactly where the murder weapon was the whole time.

Speaker 2 But you told us the knife is definitely in the car. It's definitely at the scene.
And the whole time you sat here knowing that we were on a wild goose hunt.

Speaker 2 You just didn't think we'd find the knife, did you?

Speaker 2 No knife, no crime.

Speaker 2 Is that what you were hoping for?

Speaker 1 The fact that Isaac hid the murder weapon became a key piece of the case. It showed a clear consciousness of guilt.

Speaker 1 Isaac could claim memory loss all he wanted, but his actions and the lies he told afterwards spoke volumes.

Speaker 2 I either threw it in the bush or I threw it. Why would he throw it?

Speaker 2 I don't know, Isaac. Okay, and where's Sabra?

Speaker 2 She's just sitting in the car.

Speaker 2 I think she's just watching TikToks on her phone.

Speaker 2 Watching TikToks on her phone, knowing her boyfriend just stabs somebody.

Speaker 2 It's pretty normal behavior, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, hey, you went home and took a nap. Like, it was just another day in the park for you, right?

Speaker 2 I wouldn't be able to sleep if I stabbed somebody.

Speaker 2 I was too drunk and then really remember it when I get home. But not too drunk to drive.
Not too drunk to dispose of the murder weapon. Not too drunk to try and cover up your tracks.

Speaker 1 Surveillance footage outside Justin's home captured Isaac ditching the knife in some nearby bushes. Interestingly, Sabra was inside using the restroom when he did this.

Speaker 1 Meaning, once again, it's very possible Sabra didn't know Isaac had hidden the weapon. This was another lucky break for her.
As for Isaac, he wasn't ready for the night to end.

Speaker 1 After disposing of the knife, he planned to return to the cabin, this time armed with a gun.

Speaker 2 And then, I remember going home, me and my sibling got into it. What did you guys get into it about?

Speaker 2 I think I was trying to get into the gun safe. Why were you trying to get in the gun safe?

Speaker 2 I think to go back there.

Speaker 2 And do what?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 Finish the deal? No.

Speaker 2 Why else would you go?

Speaker 2 I think it was just to scare them because they wouldn't jump me. So you went home and you're rattling the gun safe trying to get into it?

Speaker 2 I took a hammer to it. You took a hammer to the gun safe?

Speaker 2 Okay. And what happens? My sister tried to grab me and was telling me, hey, stop, stop, stop.

Speaker 2 And we ended up getting in a fight over it. Did you punch him in the face?

Speaker 2 You blacked his left eye. You know about that?

Speaker 2 You know that he just had a heart attack. And he's raising your kids.

Speaker 2 Again, stabbing somebody wasn't enough today. You went home and assaulted an old man.
On top of all the things you could have done.

Speaker 1 Finally, after stabbing Charlie, hiding the evidence, and assaulting his stepfather, this drunk and dangerous ass clown passed out in his own bed.

Speaker 1 He woke later that morning to the sound of police knocking at his door.

Speaker 2 So, here's the problem with this whole thing: is that not one time today have you or Salva asked how that kid is, right?

Speaker 2 I was thinking about it,

Speaker 2 I just didn't want to ask.

Speaker 2 Why not?

Speaker 2 I didn't want to hear it.

Speaker 2 Did you have any inclination?

Speaker 2 I have a feeling.

Speaker 2 Did you know his name was Charlie?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Charlie was just some innocent guy at that party. You never met Charlie before that, did you?

Speaker 2 You grabbed Charlie by the neck, and you didn't stab Charlie two times. You stabbed Charlie six times.

Speaker 2 The side of his neck, right here on his face, twice in his side, once in his back, and somewhere in between his head and his neck. And you left.

Speaker 2 You left Charlie to lay there and bleed out on the ground. Charlie didn't die right away, but Charlie

Speaker 2 coded out in a trauma bay. He made it in an airplane to a hospital in Columbus, made it through the surgery, and then he could put his heart gape out.

Speaker 2 And you know what? His kid isn't the only one left without a dad. Because Draco and Whalen aren't going to have their dad either.
They're not going to have their mom either. She went to jail today.

Speaker 2 What she had done?

Speaker 2 Complicity to murder.

Speaker 2 Because she knew and she didn't do anything about it.

Speaker 1 Isaac and Sabra were charged and booked into jail.

Speaker 1 Initially, both faced murder charges, but eventually, Sabra's charges were downgraded.

Speaker 5 According to court documents, Isaac Pence has been arrested and charged with murder. His girlfriend, Sabra Flagg, is accused of leaving the scene with him and lying to detectives about what happened.

Speaker 5 She's charged with obstructing justice. Pence and Flagg were in court this morning and both pled not guilty.
The judge is keeping them both on a $1 million bond each.

Speaker 1 Sabra later accepted a plea deal. She served just six months in prison for obstructing justice, and as far as anyone knows, she's now a free woman.

Speaker 1 As for Isaac, he took his case to trial, and he lost.

Speaker 1 He was convicted of murder and a long list of related charges. His sentence was 18 years to life.

Speaker 1 In my humble and ultimately meaningless opinion, that's far too lenient. Isaac could be a relatively young man if he walks out of prison one day, this time as a felon and a convicted murderer.

Speaker 1 What happens next time he picks up a drink? Whose life will he destroy then?

Speaker 1 And what judge will completely skirt responsibility for letting him out?

Speaker 1 As frustrating as Isaac's sentence is, there is another detail that makes this case even harder to stomach. Isaac and Charlie didn't even know each other.
They were complete strangers.

Speaker 1 Charlie died because he happened to be standing in the wrong place at the wrong time at the hands of a violent man that he had never met.

Speaker 1 That's how easy it is, folks.

Speaker 1 That's how quickly it can all end.

Speaker 2 And how did Charlie get involved in this whole

Speaker 2 that's he was literally just standing right there as far as I know? He was standing right there by the porch. And

Speaker 2 so Charlie and him had no beef prior to this?

Speaker 2 No, I don't even think they talked.

Speaker 2 Okay. So he just kind of was the unlucky

Speaker 2 victim in all of this.

Speaker 1 Charlie Starner was just 22 years old. He was a young father, a soon-to-be husband, and by every account, a good man who loved his family and friends fiercely.

Speaker 1 His future was full of promise, but all all of a sudden, it was stolen in an instant when he tried to do what good people so often do. He stepped in, hoping to calm a situation before it got worse.

Speaker 1 Charlie wasn't reckless. He wasn't looking for a fight.
He was trying to protect and he was trying to help.

Speaker 1 And that one moment of courage cost him everything.

Speaker 1 The unfortunate truth is that sometimes the safest choice and the smartest way to protect yourself is to step back when danger bears its teeth.

Speaker 1 But this case isn't a warning against being brave or helpful, or being a good Samaritan. It's simply a brutal reminder that evil doesn't need a reason to destroy what's good.

Speaker 1 And you never know what someone else is capable of. or how quickly a night of drinking and partying can spiral into something deadly.

Speaker 1 Sometimes all it takes is being in the wrong place,

Speaker 1 facing the wrong person at the wrong time.

Speaker 1 You know that time when you're done recording an episode of Sword and Scale, it's fresh off the presses, you're ready to put it out?

Speaker 1 But you just know, you just know deep down inside that some fat monstrosity with a septum ring and clown hair is going to accuse you of being a misogynist simply because you called a dumb bitch dumb.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 1 you see here,

Speaker 1 maybe I am a misogynist. Maybe I am.

Speaker 1 Maybe if being a feminist means you side with someone just because they have a pair of tits like you do, despite not having a brain, or, I don't know, morals, means, we gotta stick together, girls.

Speaker 1 Just remember this little lesson we've hammered into your brain over and over and over again:

Speaker 1 beware of the company you keep.

Speaker 1 If you side with idiots with loose morals, then maybe that's exactly who you are, too.

Speaker 1 But who am I, other than just a dumb male? Kind of like the other idiot in this story, which I don't side with at all because I'm not a malist or whatever they're called.

Speaker 1 Because having a brain is more important than having a dick. See how that works?

Speaker 2 Nah,

Speaker 1 you from Ohio too?

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