EP.248 - LOYLE CARNER

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin.

Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening.

I took my microphone and found some human folk.

Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke.

My name is Ad Buxton, I'm a man.

I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan.

Hey,

how are you doing, podcats?

It's Adam Buxton here with my best dog friend Rosie,

the hot dog.

Happy to say she's trotting along beside me and doing some panting.

Would she rather be in the kitchen on the sofa?

Yes.

But even she can't deny that it's nice to be out on a pleasant, slightly blustery

and cloudy evening at the very beginning of June 2025.

How are you doing anyway, podcasts?

I hope you're well wherever you are.

Thanks to everyone who came out to the Hay Festival last week.

It was lovely to meet some of you.

I'll waffle a little bit more at the end about that and some forthcoming events.

But right now, let me tell you a bit about podcast number 248, which features a rambling conversation with with British Guyanese rapper Loyal Carner.

Loyal facts.

Benjamin Gerard Coyle Lana, his stage name is a spoonerism of his surname, was born in 1994 to a British mother and a Guyanese father, who Ben did not have much contact with growing up.

Instead, he and his brother were raised by his mother and stepdad in Croydon, South London.

After studying drama in his teens, the death of Ben's stepfather in 2014 played a large part in his decision to commit full-time to music.

He played his first official gig in 2012, aged just 18, at the Button Factory in Dublin, where he supported rap royalty in the form of MF Doom.

Five years later, in 2017, Ben released his first album, Yesterday's Gone, which garnered both Mercury Prize and Brit Award nominations.

This year sees the release of album number four, entitled, Hopefully, out on the 20th of June.

But earlier this year, Loyal went back to acting with his first major role in a BBC TV drama, Mint, directed by Charlotte Regan, whose much-praised debut feature, Scrapper,

was released in 2023.

Mint is described as a darkly comic and unconventional drama about a crime family's inner life.

I think the first time I was aware of Loyal Karner properly was in 2019 when we showed one of his videos at Bug,

the one for Otterlenghi directed by Oscar Hudson.

One of my favourite kinds of video, the sort of thing Michelle Gondre used to do so well.

Very simple

visual tricks.

all set on a train journey on which Loyal has fallen asleep and begins to dream.

I'll put a link in the description.

Brilliant video, but also a lovely track and I just thought, yes, please.

My conversation with Ben was recorded just a few weeks ago, as I speak, in mid-May.

We met in a North London recording studio where Ben and his band were rehearsing for the Glastonbury Festival, have you heard of that one?

Where he will headline the other stage on the Friday night.

And as well as some festival chat, we spoke about mums and dads and navigating the uncertainties of parenthood.

Ben is the father of two young children.

We also talked a bit about kids' music, a part of the conversation which took an unexpected turn into a fairly graphic description of a bear attack.

Just so you're aware, that was my fault.

Not the attack, the conversational turn.

We also spoke about the value of hope and to what extent it can also be dangerous.

Some big philosophical topics in this convo.

A name dropped Nietzsche and then Descartes when we talked about unwelcome thoughts, especially in the context of managing ADHD, which Ben has done throughout his life.

I had a great time talking to Ben about all this stuff.

He's one of the more emotionally engaged men I've ever met, I think.

And though his voice, as you will hear, is always beautifully calm and steady, there were several moments during our conversation when his eyes filled with tears as he talked about moments that were meaningful to him, being with his mum at Glastonbury and watching the British musician and sometime collaborator Sampha playing the piano in the studio, for example.

It was,

if I say so myself, a beautiful ramble, which began with me trying to figure out what I should actually call him.

Back at the end for a brief waffle slice, but right now with Ben slash loyal Connor, here we go.

Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat.

We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that.

Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat.

Push on your conversation, hope to find your talking hat.

Now, do people in this setting call you Ben or Loyal?

It's up to you.

You call me Ben or Loyal, whatever you feel.

It's honestly up to you, which is such a horrible answer, isn't it?

Yeah, Ben, go for it.

Okay.

But do you

think of yourself as loyal in your head?

In this setting, probably a little bit more than usual.

Yeah.

But as I've got older, I think I kind of think of myself more as Ben, you know?

Okay.

Now I keep thinking of you as loyal.

I want to call you Ben.

But it's confusing.

But it is confusing because that's my relationship with you.

Yeah,

you're loyal.

Then loyal it is.

Do you, and forgive me if this is a massively hack question,

but do your fans call themselves loyalists?

wow i don't know if i have enough listeners to have like a group yet but maybe it would be nice i know there's like a loyalty card you can get i was gonna ask yeah that's like i've seen that online but loyalists it would be nice i guess the thing about loyalists though is there's some political baggage that goes with yeah yeah i think so so maybe best to stay to stay clear yeah exactly so you are officially on the kind of promo circuit for this record is that right Actually, yeah, yeah.

But it's still quite small, you know.

I'm trying to only speak with people, you know, if I really want to do it, you know, which is a bit of a blessing of this process compared to others.

So

now I feel really lucky to sit down with you.

Well, thank you so much for doing it.

Do you enjoy promo, though?

Like, is it easy for you or does it make you?

I think I'm anxious sometimes, you know, because I speak without thinking sometimes, you know, and

that's like in this in the climate of now it's kind of dangerous sometimes, you know.

So it's more just that, like, I don't want to you work so hard to like articulate how you feel in quite a nuanced and refined way, you know, and that's the piece of art you've made.

And then sometimes I worry that like you can butcher that by over-explaining it or not kind of summing it up as efficiently or eloquently.

So, but I enjoy it.

It helps me understand personally and selfishly.

It helps me understand where I'm at with the piece of work I've made, you know?

So I do find it useful and at that sounds quite beautiful.

Have you ever had media training?

No, I wish.

I need it.

I need it as well.

Yeah.

I'm promoting a book at the moment.

And

every other interview, I come out and I've just got a knot in my stomach and I'm just like, ah, I am an inadequate agent for my art.

But that's what's so difficult, isn't it?

It's because it's not.

I've never been able, like, I'm not the one to promote it.

You know, like back in the ages of Motown or whatever, obviously the artists were never getting much money or respect, but like there was like a whole world that were helping

put it to people, you know, to explain what it is and how to engage with it.

And I think when you're the person who makes it, it's really hard because you have no perspective.

You know, I'm looking at it like right in front of my nose.

And I think you really need to be able to zoom out to see what it is or what it could mean to other people in order to be able to kind of

present it, you know, like to kind of make it seem like it's something of note, of interest.

Understanding what you mean to other people is the big, massive quest, isn't it?

Like, either you don't care and you cut yourself off completely from that.

You don't ever think about it.

You just plow your own furrow and whatever.

Or you go the other way, which so many people in the modern media age, like the digital age and the internet age, do.

You can spend your whole life checking out what people think.

You just know what people, but you don't know what they really think as well.

You just know what they're comfortable to say, you know, on a keyboard.

But yeah, it's harder and harder to not engage with that and i think it's making it's affecting art you know and in like a in some ways you know like the the presentation of it there's so many blessings that come along with the how immediate it can be to share and comment and you know like not comment i guess doesn't really help because you would never go to a gallery and see the mona lisa or whatever and then see like all the comments underneath of like this many people have viewed it or she's got a double chin or you know like you would never see it you know like yeah yeah yeah i think it kind of gets you know it definitely gets in the way but i think more than that what i find you know from peers of mine and people I really look up to that I've had a chance to speak with is it's really hard not for it to get in the way and stop you from sharing stuff.

You know, that like I find it like I make videos, I direct my own videos, and if one doesn't get as many views, it makes me kind of go, or likes or positive feedback or whatever, you kind of go, oh, I probably won't release another one of those for a bit because that kind of hurt me, you know, when really you're not doing it for that.

You know, you're, you know, there's, I feel like there's a lot of people out there who would release a lot more, share a lot more if they weren't thinking about like the open engagement of it.

Because engagement is fine, but like

it being so public, you know.

Yeah, that's the thing.

It's nice when you know that the people listening or engaging are well disposed to you, so they're going to receive everything you give them in the best possible spirit.

But when you travel beyond that into the wider world where people are a little more indifferent, then they're not so well disposed.

They might misinterpret where you're coming from or just view it in the most unkind light.

It can be, which can be fine.

You know, I think like in the real world, that's fine.

You know, when we play festivals and you see kind of the first few rows of people who are intentionally there to see you.

Yeah.

And then you see the next few rows of people who are kind of like friends have brought them.

And then behind that is people who are just waiting for the next person or because they can't be bothered to move or they're drunk or whatever.

And sometimes, to me, that's kind of the most honest representation of how you're really doing.

You know, because these are just people that are coming to experience what you have with no explanation, you know, which I think, in a way, you kind of should engage with some art like that.

You know, like, I don't like to watch trailers before I watch a film because I don't want to know what it's about, you know, I want to experience it.

But I think because of online,

it's like I want you to engage, like people to engage with it however they want to, but I don't want to know how they engage with it, I think is the issue online, you know?

Like, if you hate it, that's fine, but you don't have to like let me know immediately with loads of emojis, you know?

That's the thing, isn't it?

Like, in the live environment, then that's fair enough, isn't it?

And that's going to encourage you to really pull out the stops to win the crowd over as well.

So that must be quite fun.

For us, when we play festivals, especially in Europe or, you know, further afield, sometimes we're on in the middle of the day and there's just no guarantee that anyone will show up.

And at times, those shows have been the best because you start to understand actually what songs are good and what songs are not good.

Because it's easy for people to sing along if they know, even if it's not a good song.

Because if I see someone that I kind of half know, and their big single is out or whatever, and it comes on, part empathy, because I know how it feels, but also just because I want to be seen to know it, I'll be singing along just to to be like, oh, I know this one, even if I don't really like it.

But I think if you play songs in front of people and they know nothing about you, you'll then know quite quickly what songs or whatever you make, you know, if you put it in front of an audience who doesn't understand you,

you'll know what things work universally in a meaningful way, you know?

So you're playing Glastonbury this year.

Yeah.

And you've got a good old slot there, if you don't mind me talking about your slot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We're headlining the other stage on Friday night.

Nice.

I think it's the best night to play because it means that you can kind of enjoy the festival without pressure.

You know, like I'll be bringing my kids and my partner and stuff.

And

yeah, to be able to kind of go and treat it as a show and to enjoy the ceremony of it, but then not have it hanging over me all weekend.

Because it's such a big deal.

So you're on at what time?

9.30 or something?

Something like that, 9.30, 10 in that ballpark.

And how long do you play for?

About...

75 minutes, which to me is too long.

I really feel like an hour is like

the perfect thing for anything.

A movie, maybe 90 minutes, and a set 60 minutes, because I'd really want to leave people.

Maybe it's just when I go to see a show, but I get to the point after about an hour and a bit where I'm like, I've loved this and I would really love it to end now.

And when it doesn't, I start to resent it.

And I don't want ever to do that to people.

But I've had a lot of complaints when I started of my set being too short.

Because not everyone thinks like me about it.

I just think you're absolutely right.

It's just so much better to leave people wanting more and to have a little nice, concise moment.

I guess I understand when there's a financial

dimension to it and people feel like, oh, well, I paid for these tickets and I want my money's worth.

But on the other hand, you want to have a good time and you don't want that feeling is so sad of just feeling like, I'm a little bit bored now.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's someone that you love.

I think also, you know, me and my friend were talking about this the other day about art in general and and the best art to me or the stuff I love, There seems to be this current thread of like this continuous thread of like things being a bit incomplete that I get to finish it off in my head, you know.

And I think in a way to watch a set where you don't see everything and you don't hear absolutely everything, so there's still a little bit of mystique and magic to it.

You know, like I love watching festival sets because, you know, in a way, sometimes they play their best bits or they play their new bits or whatever.

And you're kind of left going, I really want to see them again.

And you might never get a chance to, but just that like feeling of that childlike feeling of hope and wonder.

Do you remember your favourite festival set or one of the festival sets you ever saw that really stuck with you?

Yeah, actually.

And it's kind of taboo now, I guess.

But I'm not taboo.

Bill Cosby.

Nah, nah, nah.

But

I saw Kanye West with my mum.

Right.

And I was meant to see Kanye West, old Kanye West, which is also a phrase that I don't like to say, but it's true.

I was such a big fan of his, you know, when College Dropout came out, and I was very young.

And I think someone had been shot or stabbed or something at Brixton Academy.

And my friend had tickets.

And I said to my mum, like, oh, I would love to go see Kanye West.

It was like, my would have been my first gig.

And it was, you know, just as he was kind of becoming a person, you know, like a person of note in the world that I existed in.

And my mum was like, there's no way you're going.

There's no way.

So it's too dangerous.

I was like, but I'll be with my friend and his dad and his mum's going and another friend's going.

How old were you?

I think like between like 12 and 14 in that, like, you're maybe a bit younger, maybe a bit older, but young for sure, you know?

I guess for my mum's generation of parents, like the view of rap was a little bit like, unless you grew up on it, there was like negative connotations with it, whatever.

And she was like, you can't go.

And I never let her forget it, basically, you know.

I mean, it worked out

for me because it made me end up doing it as a job.

But years later, he played Glastonbury, and I had lost all the people I'd come with.

And my mum was there with some of her friends, and she had lost them.

And we both kind of bumped into each other just before we started playing.

And I said to my mum, like, you know, Kanye West is playing, and would you want to stay with me?

Because obviously,

you let me down years ago, and she was like, Of course, I'd love to.

So,

more not so much for the show, because the show was very egocentric, even at that stage of his career, but to be there with my mum was almost worth missing it as a kid, you know, to watch it with her and for her to like kind of, in a way, was like cool for her to watch it and understand why I wanted to see it so bad when I was a kid and

just how much I love it, you know, makes me want to cry actually.

I don't know why, but like

the articulation of those emotions and how he feels at that time on that album meant so much to me and she saw me feeling that and understood it you know so

it's a big deal it is yeah I just had a lot of love for it yeah now you were very kind and agreed to meet my daughter yeah who's called Hope who's a big fan of yours and she was very excited when I said there was a possibility I was going to be talking to you so she traveled to London to just say hi.

That's crazy.

And we got a photo, but I also asked her if there were any things that she wanted me to ask you.

Oh, wow.

So I've got some questions that she came up with.

That's awesome.

Question one, how do you feel about the blending of your personal life and your music?

Yeah, I don't know how to feel about that sometimes.

I think I never thought about it when I started out making music because I was very

unaware that anyone would ever really hear it you know I was doing it to make myself feel better or understand how I felt and I think especially now I have kids it's like that's been like a whole new thing on this process of like finding a way to articulate you know like how I feel like the love I have for them but but not

sacrifice any of their privacy or you know their life and and not to commodify them you know into ever feeling like they're partly in use of a product or to sell a thing, you know?

Which

yeah, it's easier said than done.

I think on my second album I got some like mean reviews, which everyone gets at some point.

And but I remember them being like quite targeted to like the subject matter of my album, but then that being my family and having to kind of reconsider because for someone to cut down your work is fine, you know?

But to cut down your work that's actually just a reflection of you know, a real representation of your family or the people you love is a bit harder to navigate.

And so, as I've made music, I've become more coded, I think, and more protective of those that I hold close to me.

And also with the understanding now that a few people might actually hear it when I release it, you know, which is not something I was thinking about at the start.

Have you ever had awkward moments off the back of that kind of thing?

Um

not really, you know, I think uh

like some of my early music about my dad was like kind of angry, you know, but we

like I think actually was kind of good, you know, it kind of helped it i was able to kind of like say some stuff to him that maybe i wouldn't have said what i couldn't say to him you know but he understood and heard it and was like kind of you know embarrassed or his friends will hear it and then it kind of made us have to talk about it so maybe good actually to my mind like as a parent you have to face up to it i think and you can go into being a parent as i did being like i'm going to be the best one there ever is and then about like a week in you go oh actually gonna be terrible like everyone else and I think, like, being able to turn over your heavy stones and look at it and speak with your kids or whatever, and go, because also things that are big memories for you, and usually not big memories for them.

And the things that you don't remember, tiny things that you like flip away, like, oh, they will never remember that, or not, even you don't even like comprehend it.

They're the things that really stick with them.

And if, you know, my son ever says to me, Dad, you know, when you do X, Y, and Z, or you did this, or that really hurt my feelings, or it made me sad, or all you can do in that moment is acknowledge it because it's true.

You know, know, it's not like him saying it hurt him or you saying your parents did well.

I don't know what you said, but like, I think the only thing a parent can do is go, yeah, sorry.

Yeah, of course you're right.

You know?

But I've had that.

The first time that happened to me, when my kids got old enough, they were in their teens and they were starting to articulate things that they'd been upset by when they were little.

Wow.

And in my mind, it's like, what?

You totally misunderstood that.

It was fine.

That was nothing.

I remember that.

And it was absolutely nothing.

You're making too big a deal out of it that was my initial response of course yeah to defend and because yeah that's also your perspective though too and it probably did like if you were to zoom out as an adult it's like oh that is and if any other adults were it they'd be like yeah that's fine other parents would be like no worry nothing to worry about but kids just don't like especially when you're a kid and you live with your parents and you're young your parents are like

they're your whole existence and they're your whole like reference point if you're lucky to live with both of them or at least to live with one of the outside world and how they navigate the outside world is how you will

start to navigate it until you learn that probably it's not the best way, or whatever, you know.

So, I think even if you obviously can caveat it with, like, this is maybe not real, real past your experience, but you have to acknowledge it, you know.

But it's I'm saying it like I do it, and already I find it hard because whenever he says, like, if me and my partner are arguing or whatever, he's like, guys, arguing, and I'm like, we're not arguing, we're just talking about this thing, and we disagree, and we're both frustrated, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he doesn't get that, he just gets it, like, the voices that are raised.

No one's listening to him about turning the TV on, and he doesn't like that, you know?

Yes, exactly.

Me and my wife had a rout a while back, and one of the kids said something, like, you guys are always arguing.

And I said, that is just simply not true.

And I've got the argument log, and I can show you dates.

And we don't argue.

I mean, you know, we go through phases.

where we might be touchy with each other, but we're not one of those couples.

We're not like my parents used to be.

They were at hammer and tongs the whole time.

And

plus, I think we've got a lot better.

But it is always, you know, again, it's a reminder.

It's like, well, from their perspective, every single confrontation, every single uncomfortable meal is a big deal.

True.

And it's a sadness, you know.

But to repair it is the thing.

I don't know if you ever, you read that book by Pepper Perry, The Howard.

Oh, yeah, I know.

Your kids will be glad you read it.

The opening chapter, which I think is clever as the opening chapter, because

like many people maybe don't like

ever finish books, but I always start them with a good intent.

And she's put like, to my mind, like the most important chapter at the very beginning.

And it's about kind of that, like this idea of rupture and repair.

And that rupture is inevitable.

You know, like if you're living with people, no matter who the relationship is with, parents or children, friends, you know, like romantically.

And the rupture is...

If it's inescapable, the best thing to do is accept it.

But the next thing, the thing that's most essential, especially for kids, is to repair it, you know, is to go not to leave it, not to be like you fall out of your kid or you fall out in front of your kid and then to never address it.

And the next day at the dinner table, you act like everything's fine.

But to kind of go, last night sucked, right?

Like me and mum are really shouting and was kind of, you were really sad.

And then you went to bed and we didn't really talk.

And I could see you, you know, like completely unpack it.

Yeah.

So that there's no secret there.

And also to show that it actually affected you too.

Because if my son sees me kind of go, the last night sucked, then for for him to feel like last night sucked is not like

he's not worried he's going to be in trouble if he says like that really made me sad you know because we can be like that made us sad too we don't want to fall out you know yeah yeah I'm presuming your parents did not do the

repair

my mum my mum I feel like my mum did

like

but then in a way sometimes my mum was like um like was like conscious because it was just me and her for a long time like wouldn't like didn't want to even get to the rupture you know like if it would start to happen it would just like kind of of be like, it's fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's fine, don't worry, you know.

But me and my dad, like, we've had to, like, but the thing what's so crazy about it is that me and my dad must have repaired, like, probably the biggest rupture

that I had experienced, like, you know, probably in my life with him

and like at the hands of him, you know, and like we was kind of in a way when able to like begin to repair it almost like fucking 25 years later, you know.

So it's what I remember when me and my dad were hashing it out, and it was like, almost felt like yesterday, you know, to get a hug and like, just, I'm sorry, that's my fault.

Like, as small as that, you know, and I was like, whoa, like

the scene in Ratatouille when the guy like eats the Ratatouille and it takes him back to his childhood.

You know, I was like straight there and felt like the kid that didn't get a hug then, or the kid me, got that hug now and then, you know, like inner child and outer child.

Yeah, it's heavy.

It's brutal.

That is heavy, man.

Yeah, man.

But also.

That's wonderful that you got that, though.

Most people just dream about that moment.

Yeah, yeah, I think, but I think also because people sometimes are scared to ask about or bring it up, you know what I mean?

To actually be like, Wiki, let me down.

But also, yeah, like how awesome that my dad is able to do that too.

Yeah.

Because it's easier to just go, no,

like

instead, what most people do, I guess, is, I know I've done it.

I mean, you could sort of say I've written two books about it.

Actually, I hope I don't blame my parents for everything.

And I hope I do

remind myself that and other people that, you know, I loved them both so much.

And

I was so lucky to have them, and they did me so many favors in so many ways, and

you know, got me this amazingly privileged life that I'm very grateful for.

But the temptation is always there to kind of make sense of your own life by identifying all the ways that your parents screwed you up

and all the hang-ups you inherited from them, and that they put on you.

But I was watching this John Waters video, you know, the director, American director.

He said, you can blame your parents until you're 30, but after 40s, that's it.

You've got to stop winning there.

Everyone's delta hand.

Everyone has ups and downs.

You can't order your kids.

You can't order up your parents.

You just popped here.

You're cast with whatever's in you.

You've got to make the best of it.

So have a good old wine for the first half of your life.

That's true, because that's in the winding at the first half,

you're getting feedback and kind of learning what bits are valid and which bits are probably a bit of you, right?

And by at least 30, you should be kind of knowing, okay, I keep complaining about this one thing, but it keeps coming up.

And, you know, my parents only did it once, so surely there's a bit of me in there, too, you know.

Right.

Yeah.

What do you think the values are that you got from your mum?

That's a big old question.

I mean, have you got a sense of what the main things are that you want to pass on to your own children?

Yeah, just, you know, like let them do what they enjoy doing, you know, and help them find that.

Trust them.

Like, what are the big rules?

With my children, the thing I met, like, I didn't have many.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I felt like,

you know, you feel so inadequate.

You're like, God, there's so many things that I've done wrong and that I continue to do wrong.

It feels weird to act like you know anything with your children sometimes.

But the things I have tried to pass on that I know are true are: don't lie,

take pleasure in trying to do things well.

Like that is a fun thing to actually care about how well something is done.

Yeah, wow.

And generally, to sort of try and fight the urge to be negative about things as far as possible.

Those are the main things.

Also, don't lick the back of a metal ice tray you've just taken out of a freezer.

Please, never again.

Because I did that and I peeled off the top of my tongue.

I don't know, I repeat.

I mean, definitely, I mean, like the first one, my mum taught me, but it's just to be kind, right?

Like, as much as possible and always go there.

if you don't know which way to go like lead with that you know um especially if people are being unkind um and to like to listen in that way but i think yeah just to help them like learn how to love themselves and put themselves first you know and to and to do what they enjoy you know like to to really like

not feel any pressure of course there's financial pressure uh housing all the stuff that comes as you get older but like especially in those formative years to like lead with like things that make them feel good you you know, and to help them discover those and nourish those.

And to show, I mean, like, my promise to them is just to, is just to show up, you know?

Like, if they're doing, if they're interested in something, if they like something, I just to love that, you know, whatever it is, even if I don't agree at the start,

to try and understand it enough before I dismiss it, or to try and say it's not helpful or it's not healthy or whatever, you know, to really like

to like walk in their shoes for a bit, you know?

But I think that that's it, just to love what they love and who they love and, you know, that good stuff.

Do your kids listen to your music?

Yeah, I mean on this album actually it's been nice because they're to me quite a good meter stick of like what is immediate music?

Like what is music for the real sense of it, you know, like to uplift or to carry or to hold or to you know to sit with someone in sadness.

Like not like I'm trying to make simplify my music in a way so that it

It's really hard to sum up how I feel about them in words.

And my music has become more melodic and become more abstract because my love for them is that, you know, it's not literal because it can't be the love of kids, you know, like the love of my children is confusing, and like

everything, I have no words for it.

And so, I think my latest album, they love

because of that, you know, because I think that they can feel their presence on it.

You know, there's like chaos and then complete calm and then destruction and then hope, then anguish, you know, like all the things that you feel like getting changed for swimming or whatever, you know.

So,

yeah, I think on this album, but they don't kind of comprehend it's me so much, or they don't comprehend that, like, it's different to what other parents do, you know, like I think they think that all parents get in the car and listen to the same song with tiny differences to check the EQ of the drama, you know, like with their dad's shouting or whatever.

So,

um, yeah, and long may that continue.

I'm kind of hesitant, you know, the shows, I guess, is the only place where they kind of see that there's something like weird going on with me.

What kind of stuff do they like listening to in the car if it's not your music?

Red hot chili peppers.

Oh, yeah.

Color fornication.

It's my son's favorite album.

They love Sampha.

They love.

Well, I'm playing a lot of Elliott Smith to my son right now.

And he's starting to really enjoy that.

Like guitar, they just love guitar.

Yeah.

And drums.

Those two things are like, my daughter loves drums, and my son loves guitar.

That's a lot of roughage in their musical diet.

When I was a kid, we just listened to my my parents' music, which was Glenn Miller

and

Wagner, if my dad was driving.

And then Frank Sinatra and things like that.

And then The Muppet Show.

We got The Muppet Show cassette, and that was a big deal.

Do they listen to the kids' music?

Yeah, of course, like Bluey.

Bluey's like the number one because that's my favourite kids' show and theirs.

And then Baby Jake.

Did anything know Baby Jake?

I don't know Baby Jake.

That's a big tune in the car.

How does it go again?

Don't worry.

Nice try.

Oggy, oggy, oggy, doot, doot, dee.

Ba ba bar beep beep.

You'll see.

Yeah, it's like a

beautiful show, actually.

It's about a little boy who has a little brother, and I'm pretty sure that they actually recorded, like, they've kind of made sense of the baby's like ramblings and they've kind of made this whole world out of like what's seemingly disconnected, which is quite beautiful.

Did you ever listen to Baby Shark?

Of course.

Thanks to the nursery, actually, and I never forgive them for that because we didn't give it to them, but they came back one day just being like,

Baby Shark.

And how can you say no to those eyes?

I didn't even know about Baby Shark because my kids were by that time too old for it, I think.

Yeah.

And so it totally passed me by.

And I only found out about it when I was listening to a podcast of survival stories.

And there was some guy who'd been mauled by a bear and his whole face had been ripped off.

I'm laughing because it was so horrific.

It's not funny to be mauled and have your face ripped off by a bear.

I suppose the hopeful part is that he survived this guy.

Yeah, yeah.

And his face has kind of been more or less sewn back together, and you know, he's able to talk about it and have a sense of humor about it.

But while he was sitting there under a tree, looking around after this bear had attacked him, and the bear went away and then came back like the revenant, basically.

It was like the revenant, which is the scariest.

Yeah.

And

this guy was looking around through the blood that was pouring down his face.

And at one point, he describes seeing his nose

a little way over and you know, bits of his ear and stuff like that.

And thinking, oh, that's my nose.

And he knew he had to kind of not pass out and stay awake.

Yeah.

And so he started listening to Baby Shark on his way.

No way.

Yeah.

Baby Shark saved his life.

Sort of, yeah.

Fuck.

Because his daughter was into Baby Shark, so it was there on his phone.

So he listened to Baby Shark over and over to keep him conscious.

And then he managed to get

down the mountain.

He was hiking out in maybe Canada.

No way.

And

he was able to get back to his car, drive to a house,

go out and ring the bell of the house, and like a kid answered the door and just screamed.

Like, what?

Because

it was in a bad way.

It's actually such a beautiful story because the main part of it is like, obviously, the connection between him and his daughter, you know, that it's like immediate like repetition of like because I have those in the car with my with my son like finite little sections of songs where I've looked to him and he's been like eyes closed or belting something out and they're so they're like little capsules that whenever I listen to the song I'm that I'm like there, you know, like he's right by my side.

Maybe that's what's happening for him.

Because there's no other way that you could, you know?

Yeah.

There's no other way that you're handling that than by being like so lifted by that, you know?

Well, the musical connection

is a very powerful, magical thing, isn't it?

True, yeah, true, true.

I feel very lucky because you know, like

I try and play loads of instruments, but I'm not very good, and so like to be around musicians, like real ones, ones that are like at a high level for me is like I feel very privileged because I'm around it a lot.

But like a few times, I was the first time I was in a studio with Samfa and he started playing on the piano and singing at the same time.

That was like,

yeah, you know, again, makes me want to cry.

That I was just like,

I felt so lucky to watch it happen, you know, it was like watching like a volcano erupt or, you know, like things that you just shouldn't ever get to see, or like a whale coming out of the ocean, you know, like just those things where you're seeing something doing what it's meant to do, and it's really rare, you know.

But yeah, that, and it's happened a few times, happened with a guy called Nick Hakeem on this album.

You know, he was like kind of reluctant to sing and you know, he's so it's so beautiful, his voice, he doesn't want to use it much.

And we're kind of these goofy guys from London that are like trying to like coax this amazing thing out of him, you know, and then he just stood up, I'd written it and sung it and then on a song called Don't Fix It and then he got up and like just started singing in the corner, like hunched over the mic, we couldn't see his face, but just like, yeah, again.

Yeah, I think for me, I think singing is a big one for me when I, because I can't really do it, like when I watch people, in all things, but when I watch someone do the thing that they are meant to do, you know, not necessarily that they want to do, but like the thing that they're like unquestionable, like they're just like so incredible at it, I just can't help but like want to cry, you know, and be and feel so lucky to be on that patch of land with them, you know?

I do know, yeah.

Watching people do things really well is very emotional, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I do remember my dad saying that, watching Torville and Dean, you know, the ice skaters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right.

And I remember when it was all about Torville and Dean and they were doing Bolero and

this early 80s, I guess.

And

I remember my dad just getting quite emotional in a way that I did not expect him to.

Wow.

It was not all about ice skating.

He was just like, wow, look at them.

They're in the zone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And seeing someone love something, you know, like, or even if they don't and they're challenged by it, but you know, like watching someone who's been able to achieve a thing that they, you know, they set out to do that's not easy.

You know, like, I feel like it when I watch football all the time, like, just the poetry and motion of someone who's like, because what you're seeing, you're getting a glimpse into like the best bit, you know, like that piece of magic, and that's like a

combination of like

however many hundreds of thousands of hours of getting it wrong, falling, hurting, injury, etc., you know, like ice skating, slipping, cutting your fingers, whatever.

All just for that little finite moment where you like achieve, you know, like that whatever, flow state or, you know, where someone's just enjoying something.

And it's so intoxicating to watch that, you know, to watch someone enjoy themselves that's what that like like I was saying before that's what I really want for my kids is just to like watch them enjoy something so much so you know that like it means that they do it really well you know do you enjoy yourself on stage or are you concentrating on just not fucking up

depends yeah no I think I do I've actually been on set recently like making a TV show oh yeah what are you doing can you talk about working with this um working with this director called Charlie Reagan who did a film called Scrapper.

And I'm a big fan of hers.

And

now we're friends.

And I feel like that to me has been, it reminded me of what I first, you know, and even on it, maybe this album is probably the closest I've got to it in a while, but like, you know, when you first start doing something and you're doing it for the first time.

And when I was young, when I started making music, playing those first shows, I felt so alive, but I didn't know that like...

That's like a special thing.

I was like, wow, this is, well, I can't believe I'm doing this thing and I'm going to just be alive always, you know, to be like 30 and to step on set and and be petrified, but also so fulfilled and challenged and like respected, you know, and pushed like to feel so alive, but also have a little bit of perspective to go, like, fucking hell, this is like, I might never feel like this again on this, you know, so like you're live, you're living it right now, you're living that thing that people dream about living, you know,

and to be able to feel it and then not acknowledge the feeling without getting in your own way was like a mad thing.

So that to me was like the closest memory I have at the moment of like doing something and going like,

yeah,

I love this.

You know, I love it.

Yeah.

You seem like you live life on a real intense emotional pitch.

Oh, yeah.

Today you've caught me on a crazy day because I'm really there.

I really am.

That's good.

I feel, I mean, I feel that coming through and it's, it's really nice.

You know, I relate to that.

I feel like that myself sometimes.

Sometimes it annoys me that I do get emotional.

I feel like it would be nice just to cruise through on a little bit.

Like I wish there was a bit more

flattening out sometimes you know and sometimes my friends who take medication for depression and the way they the way they describe the flattening out of their life which sometimes is bad but now I understand in the modern pharmacological world they've got better at fine-tuning those medicines so that you do everything just feels a bit less all over the place and a bit more manageable.

You've never taken antidepressants?

No, no, no.

I used to take.

It scares me a lot

because I'm on the like, you know, I really feel the high and I really feel the low, you know?

And I kind of love that.

Like, the feeling of being like, because it makes me feel alive.

I feel more worried when I feel numb because I've felt like that before, you know.

And so, like, the times when I feel

when it's when I'm really at the edge of like

the tears, and I don't know if they're happy or sad, but I'm just feeling them anyways.

It's like, this is my best days, you know?

Albeit a little bit embarrassing.

But I did used to take ADHD medication, like Equisim, Concerto, Ritalin, like those kind of things when I was a kid, which is like, I guess, effectively speed, you know?

Is it?

Yeah, basically.

You would think you want the opposite.

True, but what is fascinating, actually, like a lot of things that are supposed to stimulate, like, you know, my brain, I have ADHD, neurodiverse, the neurodiversity.

But you know, there's like synapses in your brain.

You're like going from, you're basically going from thought to thought, right?

But like, the gap is just a little bit too big in my brain.

Or like,

instead of having like one, like a single-minded thought, I go, I'm gonna do this, and my brain goes, Cool, you're telling yourself to do this, we've received it, we're gonna go do this.

Before it gets a chance to like land, it splits into four, eight, twelve, sixteen.

So, I go upstairs being like, I'm gonna go get my socks, and then I see my notebook, and then I start writing in it.

And then I'd look down and see my shoes, and go, Oh, yeah, I should put those away.

And then an hour will pass, and before I know, I'll be outside like cleaning the car or talking about this when really I was trying to answer your question.

Basically, it zeroes you in so you can be singular, you know, and in a way that's useful if you're working in a job that's that's

in the society that we live in, in the metropolis, but it's not really like for how we were, to my mind, like how we were intended to be, you know.

But yeah, so I used to take them, would like have no appetite all day,

wouldn't eat, would do all my work, but was just like not fun.

I mean, I'm not funny at the best of times, but like I really was not funny at all, not creative.

And I'd come back at about seven o'clock.

Like I'd get home at four or five and then by about seven they'd wear off and I'd be starving.

I'd have all these jokes I want to tell.

You know, like I just would come back.

And I guess what I learnt through that was like ADHD was not so much like a thing to get rid of.

Because when I got rid of it, I was like getting rid of like

of me.

You know, it wasn't like it was like a separate piece, you know.

Like people talk about, you know,

you know, any neurodiversity, autism, ADHD, OCD, all these things, right?

But actually, they are you, right?

And so, yes, you get some benefit from losing the bad bits in them, but you also lose all of the positive.

But yeah,

I took those, then I just just like firmly not taking them anymore.

And so, do you have strategies?

Do you need to have strategies for managing it?

Sure, for sure.

But I think the main ones is like therapy, like cognitive behavioural therapy.

I do CBT, which I find quite profound.

And I have done for like 10 years now.

I've been seeing the same lady, which is fucking crazy since my dad died.

And

that I think, you know, of like almost like treating it like the gym for my brain.

You know what I mean?

Like going and the repetition of it and the consistency and the willingness to push through things that are really scary and hard.

You know, I've got better at it, I think, since I had kids, but that's like my number one.

And then the other ones are harder to get as a parent by like eating well and sleep.

And

the therapy for me, though, is like that's the thing that, like, and just like learning, like, basically, like, the acceptance of myself, you know, like talking to myself like I'm not a dickhead, basically, you know, and actually like I'm a person who's trying hard, you know?

That I'd say is the main one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is there a strategy you got from cognitive behavioral therapy that was a real game changer that you just thought whoa hang on this is a hallelujah yeah yeah I mean like all the time but I mean just like the self-talk you know like understanding to kind of be a little bit less like

I'm trying to find a way of articulating it simply because it feels so convoluted

to kind of be in acceptance of your thoughts, you know, to be able to like to understand that you're almost like if your thoughts are clouds, then you are the sky, you know, you are not your thoughts, you know what I mean?

And that you have to allow them to pass like clouds do in the sky, you know, like there's no point zeroing in on one and going, I'm defined by that, because the sky is not defined by a cloud, you know, the sky is

the sky.

So, um, yeah, to me, like, I think that was a big thing, and learning that, like, when I'm feeling anxious, when I'm feeling guilty, ashamed, or even if these feelings don't have merit and they're kind of being conjured up through false fear or anxiety or whatever, to accept them and to accept that I feel like that and not go, this is going to ruin my day.

I can't be feeling anxious right now because I'm supposed to be on stage at Glassenvi or I'm supposed to be talking with you or whatever.

And as I talk about it, I feel it coming into my belly.

I always feel like a real guilt in the pit of my stomach.

And like to accept that and go, anyways.

Even with this happening right now, it's not a threat to my current happiness or to my relationships or to myself.

It's just a part of my day.

That is such a valuable insight, isn't it?

Because, you know, when you first read Descartes saying, I think, therefore, I am, and that's part of a sense you have as a human being that

you are your thoughts, that human beings are defined by the way they think and the fact that they think and that they can articulate their thoughts.

And so, the idea that

you can actually separate yourself from that, and that it is useful to separate yourself sometimes.

That you can choose, you know, that you can go, like, like, this one is important to me, I like that one, I'm gonna run with that.

And the ones you don't like to go, like, to not put so much pressure on to be like, I don't like that, can't ever think that again, but to go, oh, there goes one I don't like, you know, and to let that one go, and that's fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What a nice thing to be able to do that, to kind of go, like, to pick and choose.

I want to ask you about Hope because that's the name of the album.

Yeah, yeah, hopefully, yeah.

Hopefully.

And it happens to be the name of my daughter as well.

Yes, of course.

Well, yeah.

I didn't even twig Theodore.

There is such a, I really, after the fact, really wish I not wish, I'm glad I'm happy with my daughter's name, but I did think, oh, hope hope is such a beautiful name right um it was it came about in a really small way that when we were in the studio we were making music and music making is really awkward sometimes or all the time because there's loads of people with all this energy and a want to make something

but they're not making anything you know they're just like kind of thinking about making something or talking about making it and everyone always kind of says to me in my sessions because i'm like whatever you know like trying to lead it to my taste but like what does it feel like you know like what do you want it to sound like whatever

i just find that like the worst question ever because I don't know.

If I knew, I'd have made it already, you know, or I'd be like trying to explain it.

But it became really apparent as we started talking that everyone just kept being like, oh, we'd play something causing the guitar, some break on the drums or whatever.

And someone would be like, oh, it sounds so hopeful, you know?

And it was like a thing of,

if today was bad, tomorrow can be better, you know, not like a

happiness or a sadness, but like that kind of intersection between the two.

And I think that's what kids give to you, you know, like the heaviness of my day or my life or the adult experience matched with like this complete, like

innocent feeling everything,

highs and lows, but always like this.

Like if I watch my daughter all the time, she gets like, she'll be trying to like do something for a whole day and she'll just fail over and over and over and over and over.

How old is she now?

She's one and a bit, like 14 months.

She was trying to climb on a little chair and she small, smack, like full, smack her head.

I pick her up, take her to the other room, and then like she would just get straight off my lap and walk back to the chair and climb and do it again over and over.

And it's like that belief that like I can't do it now, but I can I will do it.

Or like it's bad now, but I it will be better, you know?

And that is something that like

for me I needed, which is why I made it, because I loved feeling like that.

And it had been a long time since I'd felt like that, you know?

So it was like to print it onto wax and be like,

even if I never feel like it again, you know, for my kids to go like, wow, when dad was like 30, there was like a small pocket where he was just like only hopeful, you know?

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I mean, that was one of my dad's favorite virtues.

I guess that's why I called my daughter hope.

Even though he himself could be very pessimistic and downbeat, I think he was also tortured by

the idea that it might be a sort of form of self-delusion.

You know, you have,

you've got some of those downbeat philosophers like Nietzsche or whatever who will tell you that actually it's just a form of denial and delusion and it's better to come to terms with how crappy the world is.

I just think it's like you know how finite the time we have and you know what we do with it that like because a lot of people you know say it to me always that it's like delusional to be hopeful, right?

And I think for sure probably but like it works out a lot better if I approach the same when I approach a situation I go probably gonna fuck this up.

I always always fuck it up.

Yes.

But if I approach it going like I don't know I feel like I could kind of smash this sometimes i fuck it up and go no way i really thought i was gonna smash it or

more often than not you do better because you're kind of going into it going like i kind of there's something there i've got a bit of you know that's how guys win champions league final or whatever because there's there's no way especially with sport that it's not down to luck but that little extra feeling of belief you know like in harry potter when um i don't know if you've seen harry potter but there's this thing called liquid luck they have which i always was so interested in as a kid it's like a little vial with luck in it oh yeah you drink it and you get luck right?

And so he says to his friend, like, I've given it to you.

And then instantly his friend, Ron Weasley, is like, I'm going to be going to play like a Quidditch match.

And he goes out to play this match and like he's like, unbelievable, plays the best game of his life.

And then at the end, Harry Potter's like, oh, I didn't actually give it to you.

And it's true, though, because as soon as you think something is on your side, you're on your side, you know?

And I think that's the thing that people miss.

It's like the hope is not so much the universe aligning or whatever, but it's just those little bits where you would give up.

You kind of go, no, I'll just, I'll have two more tries, you know, or I'll stay here for 10 more minutes and maybe a fish will come or whatever, you know, exactly.

And the fact is that you can kind of make your own luck.

You are

the

author of your luckiness.

And that's the thing I could never get my head around as a kid.

And my dad would say things like that to me.

And I'd be like, what are you on about?

You can't make luck.

Luck is something that happens to you.

That's the definition of luck.

But you can, because you can put yourself in the right headspace you can make yourself available to people of fortune you know you're never going to be lucky just sat in a flat all day you know like

you know yeah that's the point of the kind of positive philosophy as opposed to closing yourself down from everything.

I always think of John Lennon saying that, you know, he went to the Indica Gallery to see an exhibition by Yoko Ono and she had a piece with a stepladder and a magnifying glass and you would go to the top of the stepladder and she had written something on the ceiling in tiny letters, and you would stand on the top of the stepladder and look with a magnifying glass at what she'd written, and she'd just written yes.

And John Lennon said, if she'd written no, he would have left the gallery, and that would have been it.

He wouldn't have got it together.

But he just at that moment, I mean, it's so, it's sort of trite, I guess, isn't it?

But at the same time, that always spoke to me.

And I just thought, yeah, I mean, you're either someone who's going to go up and go,

it says yes, how lame.

Yeah, yeah, or you're going to go, yes, here we go.

Come on, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think you're right.

And I think what do you lose by approaching it like that?

You know, like all of my, like, the people I know that are negative or like pessimistic or whatever and say that's the way to be.

It's not working out.

Do you know what I mean?

It's not like, it's not like I go, fuck, your life is so much better because you think everything's shit.

Do you know what I mean?

And I think in honesty, like, in a sad way, a lot of them, like, don't know how and actually are envious of hope.

You know, I know I have been in times when i haven't had it you know and like i think it's true of a lot of people people who kind of agree like align to a form of like pessimism in a way you're kind of like

it's it's a lot easier isn't it you know to be like ah this sucks you know i mean they're often the ones that want things to work out most of all exactly exactly and maybe too afraid because you know in a way it's like you're scared of wanting something and not getting it yeah but the thing that's scarier to me is like not wanting anything, you know, or not believing you could get anything because then you're not going to get anything ever.

That's the scarier thing to me is not, to not, to not want any, you know, to like expect nothing to work out.

Because even like sometimes the best part of it, like, isn't the moment where it happens, but it's like in bed the night before, and you're kind of picturing it happening and living in it.

Or, you know, like just the little dreams that you have of things that you want to happen that might never happen.

Maybe it'll work out.

And even if it never does,

just the fun of that 30 minutes, you know, before I fall asleep is kind of enough, you know?

That's true.

I still remember fondly the fantasies I had that Tom Hanks and I would become best friends on the podcast.

Yeah, right.

It wasn't to be.

No, we're no.

But that was still a happy time.

Yeah, but you know what I mean?

And almost sometimes it's better, you know?

Because you could have become friends, really good friends with him, and then he could have, like, you know, asked you for a kidney or something crazy.

I would have given it to you

just for, you know, castaway.

Yeah.

Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Captain Phillips.

Captain Phillips.

I haven't seen that for a while.

I'm the captain now.

Fuck.

Apparently, they never met those two guys until that scene.

They kept them separate.

So when he says I'm the captain, it's the first time he's being like, This is my fucking movie.

Right.

Tom Hanks.

Brilliant.

Is that your favorite Tom Hanks film?

I don't know.

It's the one I remember the most, I think, because it was like visceral.

And also the guy, the guy cast as the pirate, I thought he was brilliant.

You know, this one, I thought he was fucking amazing.

And it didn't feel like they were.

It felt like a film where, you know, usually the bad guy is usually someone, you know, I don't really believe in minority because, like, it depends where you are in the world, who's the minority, right?

But, like, from a Western gays, like an ethnic minority, like

there's always so much stereotype and there's no nuance to why they're going through what they're going through.

And I love that, like, at least you kind of are like, because I was basically watching it going, I hope they do get away.

You know, like, I hope they get it all and get out.

I hope no one dies.

But I hope that he, like, sails off into the sunset with like this little submarine and makes loads of cash.

The Somali guys.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I kind of wanted it to work out for everyone, you know i watched it a long time ago though so maybe i'm remembering it badly so if you're listening and i'm coming across like a fucking

then i'm sorry you love terrorists yeah yeah

there you go that's the bite i know it was coming no but uh i know exactly what you mean at first you were sort of yeah you were really willing them to like i think you just understand yeah in a way like because they're they have nothing and you never get to see the people who have nothing have nothing you just see the them being bad bad people people are bad because, well, they're not even bad, like people do good or bad things depending on where they're at.

You know, if you've got absolutely fuckle and you see a big ship going past every day that has everything, surely you're going to go get some of it.

Plus, Tom Hanks is the captain.

Tom Hanks is the captain, and he's like a lovely guy who's kind of got like a bit of a smackable face.

You're thinking, you know what?

I'll just, I'll just, whatever.

I'll take your stuff.

I spoke to a guy called Michael Scott Moore on this podcast, and he wrote a book

about being captured by Somali pirates.

And he was the person who introduced me, I think, to the concept of

not trusting hope because

he was their prisoner for several years.

Wow.

And he reached a point where he thought, actually, it's going to do me more harm to carry on being hopeful.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just for the sake of self-preservation to get through his days, it was beginning to torture him to be hopeful.

And he needed to make peace with the idea that he might never be freed.

Isn't in a way is that not like kind of

I don't know maybe think about Nelsa Mandela obviously you know like in a cell and like being so stripped from everything and still maintaining this like love of self or hope you know hope of release and but I wonder if even in that even by obviously not being hopeful that you'll be released but there is like a hope in a separate way maybe I'm clutching a little bit but like clutch away of like trusting yourself that like actually to go

this will make me feel better do you know what i mean that like if if i'm a bit more realistic about this i'm gonna feel better about this than if i feel hopeful which is kind of hope because you're kind of hoping that this will make you feel better yeah do you know what i mean in a way like yeah there's still this kind of thing where you're you might not like the hope as a as a like a literal theme is maybe gone but the hope of like God, I feel bad now.

And if I do this for a couple of weeks, maybe this whole ship thing will actually be a breeze.

Well, that's a very positive view of humanity, isn't it?

Just the fact that the fundamental urge to make the best of a situation or to survive

is in itself a form of a hopeful act.

I think so.

Because he could have killed himself.

You know what I mean?

Well, maybe, I don't, you know what I mean?

Like, to be, to do something to make your time on the planet more palatable to me is hopeful because you're going, it's worth being here.

You know, it wasn't like this is so bad that I, you know, I'm a, I don't know.

Sure, like, I'm clocked in.

But that's.

Let's talk about this after we've been captured by terrorists for

three years or whatever.

True, true, true.

And see how that works out.

But

anyway, I think it's.

When I saw the title of your album, I thought, yes, yes, please.

Yes.

That's what I want.

Awesome.

I don't want a big slice of nihilism.

Thank you very much.

Wait.

This is a Squarespace advert.

Do you want to build a website?

Yes, I will tell you how.

Visit squarespace.com slash Buxton.

Now start a free trial today, and in minutes, you will say, My website dreams are finally coming true.

Just tell Squarespace what you want to do.

They'll suggest some templates that might be right for you.

Drag in pictures and text tabs and videos.

And next thing you know, your website will be done.

Visit squarespace.com slash Buxton today.

Start your free trial and have yourself a play.

And when you have decided that you're ready to pay, type in the offer code, Buxton.

Why?

Because you'll save 10% if it's your first purchase of a website or domain.

Oh, 10%!

That's my favorite percent.

Thank you, Squarespace.

Continue.

Hey, welcome back, Podcats.

That was Loyal Carner, although now, I I think of him more as Ben.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.

And his album is great, the new album, I loved it.

It's got some definite

indie

rock vibes.

Reminded me a bit of King Kruell

sometimes.

That same slightly woozy

hot afternoon dreamlike atmosphere

which I think Loyal Khana does so well.

I might even go so far as to say it's better than my single, Pizza Time, which came out last week, of course.

Thank you very much, by the way, if you have been listening to Pizza Time.

Every stream takes me one step closer to playing on Graham Norton.

Anyway, thanks if you listened to it.

And also, if you

pre-ordered my album, Buckle Up,

out on the 12th of September.

I sent out a newsletter last week about it.

And

if you aren't signed up for the newsletter and would like to be, I mean, I say the newsletter as if it comes out regularly.

Well, there's been two this year, which is unusual.

I don't send out too many of those things.

But I guess this is an unusual year for me.

I've got more

stuff plopping out than I would normally.

Anyway, if you'd like to receive any further newsletters about upcoming shows and that sort of thing,

then go to my website, adam-buxton.co.uk.

There's a link in the description.

And if you scroll down on the home page, you'll find somewhere where you can sign up for the newsletter, if you wish.

Ah, look, it's Technobird

hovering above the field.

I talked about Technobird on the podcast I did recently with Russell Howard, which I think is out now.

Five brilliant things,

one of which was the Skylark.

That was fun.

And I think the Harry Hill podcast is also out.

A lot of buckles, maybe too much.

Next weekend, as well, I'm going to be on Virgin Radio, filling in for lovely Tom Allen, the comedian.

Friend of the podcast.

That was a nice episode I did with Tom back in the lockdown.

Anyway, he's taking a break for a couple of weeks.

So I'm covering one of his shows on Sunday the 8th of June between 10 and 1 on Virgin Radio.

And I think Joe Cornish is going to come along and be my guest for an hour or two.

I imagine there'll be some book talk

and other nonsense.

Hope you can join me for that.

Thank you very much indeed if you came out to the Hay Festival last week.

Over in Wales

I was on stage with Samira Ahmed

and we had a good talk about the book while the wind raged outside.

It was very stormy that day

and I couldn't figure out if the audience could actually hear anything.

The lighting rig was swinging around in front of the stage.

It was fairly apocalyptic, but fun!

And afterwards I signed books for an hour.

Thanks for coming.

Loyal Karner though, there's lots of links for Loyal in the description of today's podcast.

You've got more info on the album, plus tour dates.

There's the video for his recent single, About Time.

There's that Ottolengi video.

It's a Peach.

There's the Baby Jake song, Doo-Doo-Dee.

There's Baby Shark, of course, in case, like me, you somehow managed to miss that phenomenon.

Look at Technobird swooping down there over the field.

It's got something yummy.

There's also a link to that clip of John Waters:

Adults Need to Stop Blaming Their Parents.

It's only a short clip.

And as well as a link to the baby shark video, there's a link to the podcast I mentioned, which is on BBC Sounds: Real Survival Stories: Grizzly Bear Attack.

It's pretty epic, but it is

grizzly in every conceivable sense of the word so be warned all right that's it for this week got to get back to signing books thank you to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his invaluable production support thank you so much Seamus thanks to Helen Green for her beautiful artwork thanks to everyone at ACAST for all their help liaising with my sponsors but thanks particularly to you for listening to the single, for buying the book, for coming to the shows.

I don't know, Maybe not all of you did those things.

That's okay.

Because you listened right to the end.

And I'm very grateful.

Which is why I think it's time we had a creepy hug.

Come here.

Hey.

Great to see you.

All right.

Go carefully out there.

And until next time,

please bear in mind for what it's worth.

I love you.

Bye.

Like and subscribe.

Like and subscribe.

Like and subscribe.

Please like and subscribe.

Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

I say a pat with me bums up.

Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

I take a pat whey bums up.

Like and subscribe.

Like and subscribe.

Like and subscribe.

Please like and subscribe.

Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

Nice like a pat for the buttons up.

Give me like a smile and a thumbs up.

Nice like a pat for me buttons up.

Dislike and subscribe.

Dislike and subscribe.

Dislike and subscribe.

Dislike and subscribe.

Give me the smile and a thumbs up.