EP.244 - LOUIS THEROUX & RICHARD DAWSON LIVE

Hey,

how are you doing, podcasts?

It's Adam Buxton here.

What the hell's going on?

There's no intro jingles, buckles.

Have you lost your mind?

Well, it's just that this week, for podcast number 244, I've got another live episode for you, and I'll be singing the intro jingle on stage in front of thousands of people in a minute or two.

But before then, how are you doing?

Hope you're very well.

I'm doing fine.

Finished recording the studio parts of my audiobook this week.

Saw Joe on Thursday.

He came in and we had

a slightly hysterical encounter with him going through bits of my book and me just laughing mainly.

Although there were a couple of poignant moments there as well.

That's going to be one of the bonus features.

on the audiobook version of I Love You Bai, my book, which comes out

next month.

You can pre-order it in the description.

I'm sorry that I keep banging on about it, but I hope you'll understand.

I can't quite believe that it's finished, and

I'm keen for you to check it out.

Anyway, that's all nearly done.

My best dog friend, Rosie, is not with me today.

She's gone for a walk with one of the boys.

She's doing very well, looking even more beautiful this week.

Now her coat is beginning to grow out.

She's looking very silky and youthful.

It is a lovely evening out here in the Norfolk countryside towards the end of April.

The sun is going down.

It's quite cool.

Got the North Face coat on.

Anyway, look, let me tell you about this live episode.

This one features a conversation between myself and my old friend and friend of the podcast, Louis Theroux.

There's also a wonderful musical performance and a duet, uh-oh, with British musician and another former podcast guest, Richard Dawson.

This was recorded in June of last year, 2024, as part of my live podcast tour.

And as I said before, I won't be putting out every live episode that we did last year for various reasons.

Some of them ended up being too visual.

to work as audio only.

A couple of them had sound problems.

Some of them we couldn't clear the music.

We only just cleared Richard Dawson a couple of days ago.

But I think that you're going to enjoy these bits from the show that we recorded with Louis and Richard at the Eventim Apollo in Hammersmith, West London.

Over 3,500 people were there that night.

That's the biggest live show I've ever done.

Sold-out show.

Even though the audience that night didn't know who the guests were going to be.

As with all the live podcast shows I did last year, we had a big screen on stage and I was showing bits and pieces of video stuff throughout from my laptop.

At the beginning of the shows, I would do some very funny and topical material about artificial intelligence, which of course has continued to evolve at a dizzying pace in the intervening months.

You know, the multimodal models like GPT-5 and Gemini 2 have achieved human-like reasoning.

AI agents have gained autonomy in complex tasks.

Open weight models like Lama 3 have closed the gap with closed source AI and robotics saw breakthroughs in real-world generalization via embodied AI.

But I did use AI to get that information.

So it's possible that it's just learned how to exaggerate and make itself look cooler than it really is.

But last June, I was mainly using AI to generate amusingly wonky images of my guests and their best-known work as part of their introductions.

And if you click on related links in the description of today's podcast, you'll find a few of those images on my website, along with photos from the day and the play as well, the transcript of the play that Louis and I performed on stage seconds after it was generated live by ChatGPT.

And it was genuinely live, and the audience could see the text appearing

as it was generated and they could see it as we scrolled down and read along.

So anyway, it might be interesting for you to look at the actual text and see the stage directions that the audience were laughing at as we performed

if you'd like.

I will be back

for a very short bit of waffle just after halfway through the podcast to introduce the final section of my conversation with Louis.

But right now, let's time travel back to the 9th of June, 2024.

A simpler time.

8 p.m.

to be specific.

And I've just arrived on stage.

Here we go.

It's very nice to see you.

Thank you so much for coming along to the Hammersmith.

In my mind, it's still the Hammersmith Odeon.

It's still 1973.

Zavid has just shuffled off the stage.

Having broken up the spiders without the spiders realizing they were about to be broken up.

And

it's a different time.

No, it's not.

It's 2024, and you are watching a live podcast because you've run out of options.

But I'm going to do my best to make you not regret that decision.

So I'm going to sing the intro theme, and this is a polka arrangement that I've done specially for you.

And if you do know the words, I would appreciate you joining in.

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin.

Now you have plugged that podcast out and started listening.

I took my microphone and found some human folk.

Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke.

My name is Adam Buxton.

I'm a man.

I want you to enjoy this.

That's the plan.

hey good job

right now this is exciting you don't know who my guest is going to be tonight so

this might scramble a few heads

because this is someone that perhaps you're not expecting My guest tonight is a face that will be familiar to you all.

It's someone whose insights into human nature are always fascinating and, I dare say, increasingly relevant in divided times.

Please welcome the leader of the Reform Party, Nigel Farage.

That's not respectful to Nigel.

I'm sorry, Nigel.

But I don't know if they're going to be sufficiently respectful.

So you might have to fuck off.

And instead, I would like you guys to welcome my backup guest,

who is Louis Roux!

One, two, one, two.

Hey,

I would have quite liked to have seen Nigel Farage.

I would have been curious to see what he came out with.

But we'll try and be every bit as witty and full of bonhomie

as Nigel.

How you doing, Lou?

Yeah, pretty good.

Sunday night.

Nice to be here.

My first time here on stage.

I've been here as a paying guest many times.

So let's see how it works the other way around.

Yes.

How do you feel about the old AI situation?

You know, I feel like I should be really worried about it, and I think...

I think I'm just too stupid to know how to worry sufficiently.

But also, like, machines have always been better than humans.

Do you know what I mean?

I don't mean like morally,

you know, but you know,

they've always been faster and strong.

I mean, let's say since the Industrial Revolution, not to get all historical about it, I went to Oxford.

I don't like to make a big thing out of it.

But, you know, their photos, they're like, well, there's not going to be any painting anymore because we've got photos now.

We don't need you.

And they find a workaround.

Like, we'll do smudgy paintings.

We'll call it impressionism.

And actually,

my thing is that as long as you feel like,

I work in non-fiction, so maybe I would say this, but there's something very special about connecting to something that you know is made by a real person.

People pay more money.

It's like when you're a kid, you're like, but that plate's shit.

And you turn it over and it says hand-painted.

And then like, oh, that's why you pay more for it.

Yeah, it's shit, but someone actually went to the trouble of doing a human in a little cottage somewhere.

Exactly.

And that's why it costs £50.

And so

the idea of humans, it's like, if you,

it's about policing the boundaries between fiction and non-fiction, is the way I look at it.

If you told me, the analogy I was thinking about, it's like, if you told me for the last 20 years my wife had been a robot and I never realized it, I would feel cheated.

Do you know what I mean?

I wouldn't think like, oh, well, it's all the same thing.

I wouldn't be surprised, personally.

Speaking about your wife, I hope.

Yeah.

Not mine.

No, my wife.

My wife.

So it's that feeling of like, you know,

it matters to you whether something's made by someone human or whether it isn't.

And that will always be the case.

Like, like it or not, we will we have special feelings towards our fellow apes.

And the imperfections are part of what make us human.

And I'm sure they will be able to ape and imitate our imperfections as well.

You know, you get that thing, and when I use music software on Logic, you get virtual studio instruments that you can use, and they are getting better and better, and they're mainly made up of samples a lot of the time.

But you can add things like with the VST pianos, there's a button you can use to turn up the creak of the seat of the person playing the piano to make it even more authentic.

And with the guitars as well, you can have the sound of the fingers slipping over the strings.

You know what I mean?

All those little human touches are brilliantly mimicked by the AI.

But I just am skeptical about the extent to which it will be able to, you know, replicate genuine mistakes and kinks and oddities and hang-ups and all the things that are so wonderful about humans.

Maybe.

I mean, personally, I think it will do those really well as well.

Yeah, probably.

But I don't want to be Debbie Downer.

But I do think that, like, I mean, not to get too meta, but like a live performance like this one, there's something about the connection of all the good people here and the fact that we know that we are real.

I think I know that I'm real.

Pretty much.

I'm not absolutely sure sometimes.

But yeah, exactly.

I mean, have you used ChatGPT, for example?

For the first time,

two days ago, a friend of mine was saying, you know, it's great for generating a bio.

You know, in the creative industries, sometimes they say, you're going to do an event, and can you send your lady's bio?

And you're like, oh, God, there's half an hour wasted writing.

About yourself in the third person, which is always a weird experience.

Like, Louis Theroux went to Oxford University and studied history.

And then here I am, sort of writing it up, saying this Dwayen of filmmaking with his three VATAs, you think, really?

You have to use the word Dwayen.

You have to throw a few words in like that.

You know, you've got to try to gee yourself a little bit.

But now, apparently, if you put that into ChatGPT, if you generate a bio for Louis Through, it does a pretty good job.

Well, I thought it would be nice to see, to challenge ChatGPT to generate a short theatre production for us to perform in front of the audience.

Do you think that's a good idea?

I mean, not really, but let's do it.

Because it's always quite shit, and for the first bit, you're like, okay, this is funny.

And then after 10 seconds, you're like, oh, it is not very good yet.

But that's why we're going to do it.

We are going now to come out of the keynote presentation and we are going to switch to the old chat GPT.

This is real.

This is real.

And

I'm going to type in

two minutes, like let's keep it short,

theater script.

Oh no, live typing is difficult.

About

a famous

documentary, filmmaker, and podcaster, Louis Theroux, 54,

being interviewed

by his old school friend, Adam,

55

who is also a podcaster, but is

threatened

by his old friend's success.

I like it.

Built-in conflict.

The encounter.

Oh, my God.

Can you...

I've never done this.

I know you're not.

I don't give it that much information.

The encounter becomes awkward,

surprising.

Oh, I really should have just pasted this beforehand.

And shocking.

Here we go.

All right.

So

we've got to read this out, Lou.

Can you read that?

Yes, I can.

All right, here we go.

Who's first?

So.

Setting, a small, cozy podcast studio.

Two microphones set up on a table.

Louis and Adam sit across from each other.

Adam, smiling, but with a hint of tension.

Oh, my god.

Welcome back to another episode of Pod Talk.

Today we have a very special guest.

It's my old school friend and now famous documentary filmmaker and podcaster Louie.

Great to have you here Louis.

Thanks Adam.

It's been a while.

This is quite nostalgic.

Yeah.

Who would have thought back in the day, huh?

You with your award-winning documentaries and me, well,

still

here.

You've built quite a following with your podcast, Adam.

It's impressive.

Yeah, but not as impressive as a BAFTA, right?

Well, how's it getting that?

Just from Lewis.

It's quite amazing.

How does it get that?

Scroll up.

It's not a competition.

We're both doing what we love.

Is that what you tell yourself?

What do you mean?

You remember in school how you always had to outshine everyone?

The star of the debate club, the top grades, and now this, always in the spotlight.

Adam, I had no idea you felt this way.

I thought we were just following our paths.

Your path just happened to be lined with red carpets.

Adam, it wasn't easy.

There were struggles, sacrifices you don't see.

Oh, poor Louis, sacrifices.

Like what?

Choosing between caviar and champagne?

No, like losing friends because they couldn't see past my success.

Realizing he's gone too far, then softer.

Louis, I.

I'm sorry.

It's just hard seeing you up there and feeling like I'm stuck.

We all have our own battles.

Your podcast is

real,

raw.

It reaches people.

That's powerful.

Do you really mean that?

Every word.

Thanks, Louis.

Maybe I needed to hear that.

We're still those kids from school.

Let's not let this come between us.

Agreed.

So tell me about your latest project.

Gladly.

It's about reconnecting with old friends.

Well,

you're off to a great start.

All right, Louis, let's dive in.

Where do we start?

I thought that was shit.

And I didn't like any of it.

I thought that was better than expected.

It was grotesquely unrealistic

and not accurate.

Yeah, that was quite good, wasn't it?

Like, it got the BAFTA just from Louie.

Is that what it was?

Well, I guess Louie and Documentary Maker.

Maybe there's not.

I'm quite, I mean, not, I mean, that actually was way better than I thought it would be.

Yeah.

We're fucked, aren't we?

We are fucked.

Now I'm going to show you some AI generated images of some of the guests you've had on your Louis Theroux interviews programs.

And you have to tell me who you think they are.

Okay.

How about

this one?

That's actually a pretty good Chelsea Manning.

That's not bad, is it?

Yeah, that's Chelsea Manning.

But the Louis Theroux is

not so good.

No, it's very sort of.

The Louis Theroux gone a bit Edward Snowden, oddly enough.

Well there you go.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's being asked to generate Chelsea Manning and it's searching around the whistleblower files

and it's thinking, oh, I'll pop a bit of Edward Snowden in there just for good measure.

Anyway, I only watched that interview that you did with Chelsea Manning fairly recently and I really enjoyed it.

There's the real Chelsea Manning.

It was very moving and intense, that one.

I didn't know much about Chelsea Manning, so fill us in if people aren't familiar.

Well, Chelsea Manning, probably the most famous military whistleblower and responsible for the biggest data leak in U.S.

military history, whose work is an intelligence operative and leaked vast numbers of files to Wikileaks, then under the stewardship of Julian Assange.

revealing the extent of, I mean, they were so vast it's hard to summarize, but among other things, complicity of the Iraqi regime in torture higher numbers of civilian casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan than had previously revealed those were the war logs and then international diplomatic cables that showed real politik behind the scenes and for me uh you know in this circle of trust it was one that I really

thought very hard about before doing mainly because I thought well actually Chelsea Manning's been out of the spotlight for a good ten years and she was in prison for seven years she'd been in prison for seven years and then it had come out,

had a kind of short-lived political career which didn't really take flight.

Yeah, I mean she's a very damaged person in many ways.

I suppose unsurprisingly considering what she's been through and you know she obviously divides opinions.

Yes.

And

she's brittle.

She talks about the fact that her therapist suggested she might have undiagnosed PTSD.

Yes.

And she gets upset.

A few times.

One, when you talk about Julian Assange, you ask her about that and she gets upset by the idea that she is, quote, a side character in her own story.

She wants you to focus on her.

That's right.

And in fact, there was a short clip that went on Instagram that became the most viral clip that I'd ever shared on Instagram.

I don't know if that sounds like me kind of bragging.

Sorry about that.

But there we are.

And I think it got like, because normally you put something on Instagram and it gets like, I don't know, 50,000 or 100,000 if you're lucky.

But this one, and it was like a minute and a half, two-minute clip, and it got, it was up to 2 million, 4 million, 10 million.

I think it's around 20 million at the moment when I last checked, which was about 20 minutes ago.

No.

And it was her saying, we're sitting down.

I go, thanks for doing this.

And she goes, doing what?

And I go, this interview.

She says, oh.

It was in the schedule.

I've got the clip.

Oh, have you got it?

Oh, you got it.

I didn't even know.

Sorry.

Yeah, it's a very awkward beginning to a series of awkward beginnings.

Now I don't have to do the offensive impersonation.

impersonation.

Thank you for doing this.

Doing what?

This interview.

Oh, yeah.

It was on the calendar.

It's on the calendar because you agreed to do it.

Yeah.

I've got a high tolerance for awkwardness, but yours is off the charts.

Explain.

Well, you seem to be more comfortable sitting in silence.

You're even better at it than I am.

I've done it for a long, long, long time, way longer than you can imagine, Louie.

What do you mean?

Like, I'm older than you.

I've had way more practice than you.

I was in solitary confinement, and that's all that was.

Me sitting there in silence.

I can just sit in silence for hours and hours and hours.

That was sort of as you were setting up the interview, wasn't it?

Was people setting up cameras and things as that is happening.

Was that right at the beginning do you know what can i tell you a secret yeah

so what it was was that's actually two bits okay through the magic of editing the first thing i'll say thank you for doing this that was like when we sat down the first part of the interview and i'm pretty sure that the second half of it is taken from the very end of the interview i might be wrong but my recollection is that at the end of the interview i said something like wow you've got a high tolerance for awkwardness but you know i've got a high tolerance but yours is off the charts and it was at the point where I just sort of noticed enough about her to be comfortable kind of calling out her eccentricities.

Right.

So it's a tissue of lies, isn't it?

It's an absolute farago of editorial, unethical decisions.

But I think it speaks to a higher truth.

It speaks to it.

Presumably, there were moments of genuine awkwardness and tension.

And then I made a couple of jokes that I thought were pretty funny where I was like, if you don't tell me the secrets, I'll have to get my bucket out.

Like it was a waterboarding gag.

And then after it was in the edit, I was like, why do we put those were good gags, man?

And apparently, while I was saying that, Chelsea's manager was off, like,

having a tantrum because I was being so offensive.

Sometimes I don't always call it right.

I thought it was kind of funny, like, we'd got to a point where we can joke about being tortured in solitary.

Because it's, isn't it funny in the end?

It's always hard to know when that moment is.

Yeah.

I was fascinated, though, by, I mean, I'm well aware of your coolness under pressure.

That's part of your brand, not to be rattled in these situations.

But I thought I would love some tips genuinely.

I can't remember if we've spoken about this just as friends before or not.

But increasingly, I find myself really in trouble when I get into awkward situations.

I don't know if it's getting older or just generally getting more fearful or I don't know what.

I did an interview the other day remotely for the podcast, for an episode that hasn't been out yet.

It was on Zoom.

They were in another country and we were, and this was someone a few years, you know, a couple of decades older than myself, quite well established, revered figure.

And I don't think they probably knew who I was.

They probably had been told that it was a good thing to do by their PR people.

And we spent about half an hour trying to get the mic to work.

If you listen to the Werner Herzog episode, I had a similar problem with Werner, and he got quite annoyed

as well when we first tried to do it.

I knew it would be like this.

It's grotesque.

Did he actually use the word grotesque?

He said, this is grotesque.

I told him it would be like this.

But he's got form for hyperbole.

In one of his films, he goes, Los Angeles home to such atrocities as yoga.

Exactly.

But with him,

we managed it.

We had to call it off the first time because we couldn't get beyond these technical problems.

With Werner Herzog, we ended up hiring a studio.

It was all fine in the end.

We did it again.

And he was golden, you know, he was really nice and fun and friendly.

And he never really got personally fucked off with me.

He was just frustrated with the situation.

With this other person a few weeks back, they got fucked off with me

and they were just like annoyed they were like why is it important why does the why do we have to use this mic I'd sent them a mic right

and they were trying to plug it in they were like why can't I just do it the way I would normally do an interview I was like because the podcats care about great great sound

And I don't know if that's true or not, but I certainly do.

When I'm listening to a podcast, I just want it to sound really good.

And the thing I hate most is downloading a podcast with someone i'm interested in and it turns out that it's down the phone you know and it's just really annoying it's like a barrier between me and that person and uh

it was so bad we spent half an hour fiddling around with this mic with me sort of going it's down in the bottom left hand corner the mic icon there's a little arrow you just click on that and so eventually we gave up and I said okay well let's just see what we can do with just the the mic on your laptop and we started recording but by that time, it was very tense.

And this person was angry, and it was not in any way a kind of relaxed chatting environment that A Buckles favors.

And, you know, I wanted it to be a fun chat.

I really thought this person and I were going to get on pretty well as well.

And I said, okay, look, I can see you're sort of frustrated and tense there, and I'm sorry about that.

Maybe we can reset.

And so I started trying to make small talk and said, you know, how's things today in where you are there?

You know, what's the the weather like?

And they just got so angry with that.

Really?

Yeah, and you know, this person all but rolling their eyes at me.

I need some tips.

So, what would you do?

How do you stare at Chelsea Manning there and not get rattled when she's not?

What you're describing is a kind of perfect storm of nightmarishness.

I would be in exactly the same boat as you.

Like with Chelsea, like it's all in the spirit of kind of inquiry, and she's being standoffish, but a little bit, but not really.

She's just being self-contained.

And did it warm up?

No, no,

no, not warm up, no.

I mean, we got through it, and they were very good.

Like, when they were monologuing, you wouldn't know there was anything wrong.

It was just when it came back to buckles, it was wobbly voice time again.

So, the other thing is, like, ideally, you can cut round it.

I know it's UK guilty secret of documentary making.

The bits that make me look like a real dick, or insensitive, or incompetent, or unprofessional, I like to cut those bits out.

And you know, that's the great thing about things not being live.

You know, when I did

an episode of a series called Forbidden America and the episode called Extreme and Online, and there was a character called Beardson Beardley, and he was a kind of a ghastly troll of the internet, far-right.

I would say probably racist, definitely racist.

And long story short, I'd interviewed him briefly and then went back to interview him again.

But in the interim, I'd found a video of him in in which he appeared to be doing a Nazi salute.

And I thought, well, I'll bring that up.

Now, full disclosure, I actually, I'm quite conflict-averse.

Like, I don't really enjoy triggering or upsetting interviewees, even when they may be neo-Nazis.

I'm not looking for a fight.

Nevertheless, I'm enough of a program maker to realize that when it happens, sometimes it creates a spicy moment of conflict, but it doesn't feel good going into a situation where you think, okay, I'm going to mention this and it's probably going to jump the tracks and the person's going to get upset.

But, you know, this is the business we have chosen.

So I tried to bring it up in a way, I said, let's get this out of the way.

And I showed him the picture of him apparently doing a Nazi salute.

Oh, and I should say, when I turned up for the interview, he was wearing a Louis Theroux t-shirt

as a kind of joke.

So anyway, surprise, surprise, he said,

you know, something along the line, you piece of fucking shit.

What are you coming here calling me a Nazi?

Get out of my house.

Get the fuck out of my house.

Which was confusing for a moment because I wasn't in his house.

I was in his garden.

You know, when someone says like a trivial thing in a big channel, like, get out of my fucking house.

I'm like, dude, I'm not in your house.

I'm in your garden.

Like, I know you're throwing me out, but what part of the property are you throwing me out of?

You know, I'm being thrown out of the property of a man who's wearing a t-shirt of me.

And also, I've only been, I'm only 15 minutes into the conversation at this point like I knew it might get awkward but I didn't think having driven like three hours to a part a remote part of Kentucky that he would be 15 minutes in be like fuck off get the fuck out of here sit kind of dick and spin so I slightly weakly was like really like oh hang on can't we do a bit more and what the hell you know seriously at first I was like what I was

breathing hard my heart was beating I was like what what just happened I think I just really fucked up I think I was

kind of made a royal hash of that encounter by getting myself thrown out.

And then later, then my sound guy was like, no, well, that was the best thing that could have happened, wasn't it?

And I was like, yeah, well, maybe.

It was, you know, definitely make a lively interview scene.

And then in the edit, we just cut out all the bits where I said, oh, please can I carry on the interview?

So it looked sort of like I'd done it kind of deliberately and I kind of looked a little bit like tough and I looked vaguely Jeremy Kyle.

I'm sorry I mentioned the Nazi scene.

Maybe I wasn't a Nazi scene.

Can we start again?

Yeah, and it looked like, you know, I'm the kind of guy who goes into reviews.

I don't give a shit.

I insult the people, they threw me out, and I'm fine with it.

So that was the version that the world saw.

Editing, there you go.

But tonight, podcasts, you're seeing everything, Watts and all, not edited.

And right now, you are going to enjoy some music with my musical guest tonight, who is, let me tell you,

a marvelous man.

I go into Jules Holland mode,

and ever I introduce a musical guest,

Eloysius J.

Oldman, all the way from Chicago playing on the bum flute with.

No,

it is

a man, a male man, hailing from Newcastle.

This man has been releasing albums of folk-inflected deconstructionist Eastern sci-fi metal jazz for over ten great years.

This is one guy that AI would struggle to approximate.

Richard Dawson!

Hello, how are you doing?

I'm here to sing a song.

How are you doing, Richard?

How have you been?

Yeah, I'm all right.

I'm very well, in fact.

And

for about two years, I wasn't able to give that answer.

So, for about six months, I've been able to say I'm well when people ask, and it's a new novel treat.

Oh, good.

I'm glad to hear it.

Okay.

The song is inspired by going to watch my nephew Matthew play football when he was 12.

And

he was playing for Wall's End Boys Club and they were playing Seton Carew, who are a notorious bunch of bad bastards.

And their coach was effing

and

seeing.

at these 12-year-old boys.

And I just thought, that's fantastic.

I must write a song about this.

So, this is that song.

Ballowing instructions

from the touchline.

That's my dad.

Purple in the face.

Getting really mad.

My name, my daughter.

An empty stadium yells, my daughter.

Come on, come on.

The cross goes selling wildly over

the hands

of everyone.

Stop funnying around.

Keep it nice and simple.

You're not lying or messy.

Just cast the bloody ball.

Man on, man.

An empty stadium.

Yes,

man.

Come on, come on.

The cross goes sailing widely over

the hands

of everyone.

Perhaps we were expecting this to be

a walk in the park.

But these bastards from King's Priory are kicking lumps out of us.

Man on, man on

an empty stadium, yeah.

Come on, come on.

The cross goes sailing wildly over

the heads.

The left box slips,

taking

every kick.

It trickles over the mud straight to me.

In desperation, he scrambles and slides.

I leap the flailing ladder dinkets over the stroll strode

off

the goalie.

The nat

is Katie Pay.

The ball

takes a bubble.

I slice wide off the mark.

Everything goes quiet.

Staring into

the red dark of of my palms.

They launch a long ball into

our books.

Suddenly we find ourselves with a cross

to defy.

I am on

the near post.

Sun of our world gets

in the news

my feet

at the final whistle

I am inconsolable

by none by none

I reckon that is really disappointed

with me

Come on, come on

He tries his his best to not

show

how he really feels

in the car.

He says, Dust yourself down, move on to next week's game.

Shall we pick up a Chinese, or would you rather

fish

and

chips.

Richard Dawson!

I only discovered Richard's music a few years back, and it was the first gig that I saw in Norwich Art Centre after the end of all the lockdowns.

And it reminded me how much I value and love live music, and to see someone as extraordinary as Richard just lifted my spirits in a very valuable way.

So I love you, Richard Dawson.

And if you're not familiar with Richard's stuff, I really recommend exploring it.

It is very varied and unpredictable, and it's a wonderful journey.

But right now, Richard has kindly agreed, and I really felt kind of embarrassed even asking him to do it, but he has kindly agreed to

play a kind of semi-extemporaneous version in a Richard Dawson style of the halfway through the podcast jingle.

So

you go where you want to go with this, Richard, and I'll come in when you start giving me a rhythm.

We're halfway through the podcast.

I think it's going really great.

Conversation's flowing like it would between a geezer and his name.

Alright, mate.

There's so much chemistry.

It's like a science lab of talking.

There's fun chat and there's deep chat.

It's like Chris Evans is meeting Stephen.

Richard Dawson!

Thank you, Richard.

Hey, welcome back, podcats.

There we are, you see.

I think that was a successful duet, don't you, with one of my musical heroes.

What do you mean I was singing flat?

I know, that was deliberate.

Anyway, if you enjoyed Richard's music and fancy exploring further, click the link in the description of today's podcast.

That'll take you to my website where you'll find some pictures that I took on the day.

There's a couple of Richard's music videos, one for two halves, that's the track he just played from his brilliant album 2020, released in 2019.

And that's probably quite a good place to start, maybe, if you're new to Richard.

There's also the video for his track Polytunnel from this year's album, End of the Middle.

And there's a video recorded by my producer Seamus, who was there at the Hammersmith event him Apollo on the day

and

recorded us rehearsing our halfway through the podcast jingle.

Anyway, that's all there waiting for you on my website.

Accessible via the link in the description of today's podcast.

But right now, let's return to the second half of the live show,

in which Louis and I compared notes on domestic strife with the help of my argument with wife Log.

But we began the second half, after I'd checked in the interval that he didn't mind talking about it, with me asking Louie about his alopecia areata, the common autoimmune condition that causes sudden non-scarring hair loss, typically in patches most commonly on the scalp or beard, that Louis has been dealing with for a couple of years now.

Lou posted an update in March of this year on his Instagram page saying that he was considering going for the full head shave in the next 12 months

and

getting the Stanley Tucci glasses and all that.

Under the post I saw that British artist Tracy Emin, who spoke to Louis on his podcast about her recovery from bladder cancer, posted, you are you, with or without your hair.

Your alopecia is not what you are known for, as I am not known for being bladderless.

Accept what you don't have and rejoice in what you do.

Very nice message, which I will also take some heart from, considering the continuing desertion of my own cowardly hair.

Although only from my head.

Why couldn't the hair on my back fall out?

What about that?

No,

it just has to be the head hair.

The rest of my monkey hair is doing fine.

Sorry, that's more info than you need.

I apologise.

Back at the end for a bit more waffle, but right now, back to Louis on stage at the Aventim Apollo Hammersmith in June 2024.

The alopecia is, it's weird, like it's, there's one part of me, you know, when I first, certainly, when I first noticed that not only had my beard fallen out, because that's what happened first, the beard fell out by little patches here and there, and I thought, thought well that's not ideal but especially when it was wonky and then when it got to a stage where it was kind of it was like a wonky van dyke as they called them in the day and then it became a hit like a hitler moustache like the only parts of beard that was left was was like a little you know a hitler moustache which is obviously not ideal that's ironic after all the time you've spent with the far right trying i know it felt like nature had played a cruel trick on me but then that fell out and i thought well you know maybe that's fine like i just don't have a beard then the eyebrows mostly went and then i had a tiny little tuft of eyebrow, and I thought, well, I'm just going to shave that off.

And then I posted a picture of myself on Instagram, and people thought I was having a full Britney Spears meltdown, I think.

But it was just, I thought it looked neater.

Anyway, I got them micro-bladed back on.

I'm giving a full report on that.

And that's what I asked for.

What's micro-blading?

It's like a temporary tattoo where they do little lines so it looks like you've got eyebrows.

But then one day my son said to me, like, Dad, you've got weird patches at the back.

And that was, I had a sinking feeling.

I was like, oh, shoot.

Like, I thought it was going to stop at the beard and the eyebrows.

And then I realized I was getting little patches all over.

So, but you know, you get over it and you're like, okay, well, there's definitely worse things in the world than that.

And my kids call me like, freaky, baldy ratty man.

And especially if they're crying.

And the nine-year-old, if he's upset, he says, you baldy ratty man.

So I'm totally like inoculated against any kind of trolling or abuse.

I'm being called baldy ratty man on a more or less daily daily basis.

Also, that is a good rapping name.

It would be good.

Like that's probably my new identity.

And honestly, like there's a part of it that's a bit like being on an adventure.

Every day there's a little change, like there might be a new patch or there's signs of little signs of regrowth, you know?

So

it sounds like I'm being maybe a little bit glimp about it, but I genuinely look at my hair and I always found I had too much hair.

Like it was a problem for me.

Like go to the barber side.

It It was sort of untameable.

It just sat there like a big wedge of untameable, you know, hursuit-ness.

And now it's like, there's not nearly as much.

It feels manageable.

And so I'm kind of in a strange way grateful about it.

I'd like to keep, I wouldn't, I just don't want to look like.

It would be a shame if it, like, if it fully went, like, if the patches got bigger than what was left, and I guess I'd just have to shave it off.

Yeah.

That is a definitely good option.

Would you change the style of glasses, though, if you went full Tucci?

I think I'd probably get something good question.

I think I'd get slightly thicker rims because you want to make more of a statement.

Exactly.

There needs to be more for the eye to rest on.

That's right.

I think you look great whatever your hair is doing with you or to you.

And do they know?

I mean, yeah, thank you very much.

I might post an update on Instagram.

Like, I haven't done much.

I've been off Insta, like, just through, you know, lack of interest.

But I

don't know.

I did a few pictures of myself with all the patches on display,

and then I was like, oh no, that looks a bit, that's a bit, that's quite strong stuff.

It looks like a medical textbook.

You know, people don't go to Insta to look at illustrations of common diseases, I don't think.

You know what I mean?

Well, maybe they do.

I don't know.

Maybe I'll, I think maybe that would be the front photo.

I have a front photo like that, and then you'd scroll past and be like, oh, that looks disgusting.

Would you ever go wig?

You know what?

Funnily enough, my wife said, what about a wig?

And I'm like, if you think I'm the kind of guy who wears a wig, we don't know each other.

But a lot more people wear wigs than you might imagine.

For all sorts of reasons.

Putting them out there.

Who are they?

Do you mean secretly?

No, I mean that I always grew up imagining that...

Well, my mum used to wear wigs the whole time.

I know it's more common for women to wear wigs.

Really?

But they still, you know, it still is a common thing.

Isn't that a a hair piece?

She wore a whole, like, proper old wig.

Really?

Yeah, she had a few of them.

And I think as well.

Terry Wogan wore a wig.

Paul Daniels wore a wig.

There was a time when a lot of people wore wigs.

I think nowadays, sorry if I've shocked anyone.

I feel like I'm giving away the secrets of pro-wrestling.

The wrestling is real.

I don't think I would wear a wig as a gimmick or a joke, but if you're wearing a wig in the spirit of like, and this is my hair, I'm a journalist.

You know, people rely on me to try and tell the truth about things, and I'll be like, but I uncovered a story and be like, his hair isn't even telling the truth.

I can't trust anything he says.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, fair enough.

Because the thing about alopecia, am I right, is that it can totally reverse itself.

So I'm told, I went to a specialist, alopecia, there's so much information about alopecia.

And they said within two years, I think 60 or 70% of cases are reversed.

Oh, really?

And the regrowth is often white.

So I'm hoping I get this sort of Dave Vanian from the damned look.

You know, I could be one of those people who has like a white streak.

Yes, like Catelyn Moran.

Yeah, that goes.

But a real one.

Yeah, hose is real.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's pretty cool.

This is interesting info you're getting from the live podcast.

This is heavy stuff.

Jeez.

But you said you were coming to a podcast and you're getting a podcast, folks.

Exactly.

This is what, you know, some of this stuff, if this was an episode, some of this stuff might even get edited out.

Now, I am transitioning conversation-wise to talking about how you are to live with

and what kind of arguing techniques you use when you're at home.

Oh, gee.

And maybe how you would have dealt with some of the arguments that I want to share with you from my log.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm a mature guy and I like to keep things harmonious where possible, obviously within a long-term relationship.

I've been married to my wife 25 years now.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

That's great.

Or thereabouts.

And,

you know, there's bound to be some rows from time to time, but I do think that we've managed to talk through some of the underlying causes of those rows with quite an admirable degree of maturity.

There's always something big bubbling away that's unresolved, you know, under the trivial disagreements, right?

Of course.

And I think we have tackled a lot of those quite well.

But I do think that another important factor has been my decision to keep a log of the arguments.

Because it just cuts down, you know, it just reduces the risk of covering the same ground.

Yes.

In valuable argument time.

When things get heated, you know, there's always a moment where you think, we've covered this one.

Yes.

And I'm pretty sure I won that time, and I wish I could just refer you to that.

Yeah.

What do you like when things get tense in the house?

Okay, so can I give you a little background?

Yes, please.

So my wife and I, we've been together about 20 years and we've got three boys and I'd like to think I've made some compromises like part of marriage, a long relationship is adapting.

We started a company together.

Yes, it's doing very well.

You won a BAFTA this year for what it is.

My wife won a BAFTA a few weeks ago and full disclosure, like before we started the company, I was very nervous about working with her.

You know, it was almost as though I wouldn't have that escape, and that the fault lines in the relationship,

instead of having those moments to have time out in this other space,

we would be fully, we would be fully in each other's pockets, and it would almost short-circuit.

You know, there'd be no sort of lying fallow, you know, at work and then coming home refreshed.

Yeah, man.

When you told me you were starting the company with Nancy, I just thought, well, that's the end of that.

Yeah.

Okay, so it turns out, like, so

one of the big sources of conflict in the relationship, and I can say this because it's in my book, Gotta Get Thoru This, available on Amazon.

Five stars from me.

They took the review down.

Apparently, you can't do that.

Is I talk about the way in which work would come between us because I was traveling a lot.

So work was the enemy, is my point.

Work was like the third person in the relationship.

Work was my mistress, if I want to put it slightly fruitily.

It was a mistress I would make love to

passionately and in a dedicated and creative fashion, experimenting a lot of different positions.

So you can see why it would get in the way of a marriage.

But it turns out, like, when you work together, my work suddenly is no longer an enemy.

It's actually a friend and a friend to the point where it's like, It's been introduced into the relationship to the point where it's like, when are are you going to make love with your mistress again?

Because we've got deadlines to meet.

Yes.

And I'm saying, like, I'm a bit tired.

Right?

Are you following the metaphor?

Yeah, yeah, it's very tough.

And I'm tired, and it's Sunday night, and I don't want to do that right now.

And she's like, well, you said you'd write this treatment.

I've actually jumped out of the metaphor.

You said you'd write this treatment, and we've got a meeting with Sky tomorrow.

And what are we supposed to show them?

Chat GPT.

And I'm like, are you serious?

Like, in the old days, for me to do anything at the weekend was a total nut.

Like, you're not working, are you?

No, I'm looking at my fantasy football on my phone.

Are you sure?

Let me see that.

Whereas now, it's like, hey, look alive.

So, the good part is I've short-circuited, in a sense, one source of conflict, but it means that I'm at work all day, every day.

Nightmare.

I don't have that with my wife.

She strongly disapproves and is uninterested in everything I do professionally.

Start a company with her.

So yeah, things are satisfyingly separate, which means that we tend to disagree about other things.

I'll share with you a few entries from the log and you can tell me where you think we're at.

Subject of argument, me picking Banshees of Inner Sharon as our Christmas Day family movie.

Yeah.

Christmas 2023.

I was all excited about it because they were getting the team back together from In Bruges, which I love.

Yes, it's an interesting film.

Yeah, but...

Not that festive.

No.

My brother and sister were around and I assured the children it would be fun to watch.

Mainpoints wife, it was depressing, pointless crap designed to win awards.

That was the verdict at the end.

And I really thought that, you know, whether you like the movie or not, I thought that we could sit around and discuss it.

No, there was no discussion.

That's harsh.

I think that's a little harsh.

It's a little harsh.

Well, I countered with it was a powerful allegory about cis men yearning for immortality because they can't give birth

like i you know it was a good take i thought legacies that whole it's a penis word legacy isn't it there you go and mental illness and the troubles in northern ireland

i saw i didn't see the bit about cis millenn but

and donkey nutrition

And playing a guitar with no fingers, right?

Does he actually play the guitar without his fingers?

I think he tries to.

Spoiler alert.

Additional points, wife.

It was a big, depressing wank.

And everyone hates one of those.

And we shall have watched Top Gun Maverick again.

Winner, that was my wife on that one.

Yeah.

Probably.

How about this one?

Being moody.

Okay.

Main points buckles.

I don't understand why you're so moody.

Mainpoints wife, you're the one that's moody.

Right.

It's like a toxic cloud.

I don't think you realize how moody you are.

Does this ring any bells at all?

This is a regular one.

We have this one.

No, I haven't had.

I used to get that when I came back with jet lag, and my wife would say, you don't seem very happy to be here.

And I was like trying to keep my eyes open, saying, No, no, I'm just a bit tired.

But we haven't had that one lately.

I'm beginning to wonder why.

I don't like that one.

We have it quite late.

So the vague, the nebulous.

What's wrong with you?

You know, it's also a great way of starting an argument.

Yeah.

You were moody first.

I'm moody because you're moody.

I'm normally fun, like on my podcast.

In fact, right now you're gaslighting me.

There you go.

I love as a man, as a man, being able to fling gaslighting in a woman's face, it feels very.

Because you just know it's such a trigger.

You know what I mean?

You're gaslighting me.

Yeah.

Because you can accuse people of gaslighting more or less all the time.

Yeah.

Winner Buckles, I won that one.

Yeah, you can't miss.

If you can draw the gaslighting card first, you're basically home free.

This one, I don't know if you can relate to this one, subjective argument.

Me throwing away the random crap that's been in the big bowl in the the hall for years, including old charges, membership cards, lanyards, packs of pills, cables, remotes, mini toiletries, shoelaces, receipts, interdental brushes, the red ones, hair clips, knackered headphones, phone numbers on scraps of paper, keyrings and keys.

Old blue tack that's accumulated what looks like pubic hair.

Yeah, I mean I could go on and on.

Main points wife, there might have been stuff in there I needed.

Main points buckles, you haven't needed it for the last 10 years.

Additional points, wife, you should have checked with me first, which is true.

That is true.

And I knew that was true.

Is it though?

Wow, then I made the point, but then

it wouldn't have got thrown away.

And the winner in that case was my wife.

Yeah, because she was right.

I should have checked with her first, but it did get thrown away.

So, in a way,

it was actually

a buckles that won that one.

How about this one?

Whose family is more dysfunctional?

Yeah, that's a high-risk argument.

That can go to a dark place quite fast.

And the old, you're just like your mum.

Because that's a double whammy.

Like, you're a dick and your mum's a dick too.

Right.

What's wrong with my mum?

I love my mum.

Main points, wife.

Yours is.

Main points, buckles.

I think yours is.

Winner buckles.

Subject of argument.

Wife updating me on which friends and family members have cancer just before scheduled marital relations.

Wow.

I'm interested to see where this goes.

Well, main points buckles, it's not exactly sexy.

Main points, wife, it's the only time we get to discuss important things.

I'm impressed that you have scheduled any marital relations.

That's the sign of a healthy relationship.

Well, Buckles won that one.

Yeah, you've got to schedule the relations, but then to start covering like admin and

illness, death, bad news bulletins, that is not in any way sexy or cool.

Yeah,

I would happily tolerate that.

If that was the price of admission, I would be like,

How's the cancer?

Yeah, anyone else got cancer?

Do you know what I mean?

Do you want to talk about cancer

upstairs in the bedroom?

Won't take very long.

And finally, subject of argument: wife leaving dirty plates and coffee mugs by the sink to clean later.

This is a tough one because she works very, very hard.

We both work from home.

So it seems so petty to pull her up on something like that.

I just, I don't like it.

So what I do, rather than being grumpy about it, I frame it as like a helpful hack.

That's a good, yeah, I like that.

And I say, I always think it's better to clean as you go.

Yeah, that's the trouble with a helpful hack

in your mind comes out and sounds passive aggressive.

Something between the thought and the action, it becomes passive aggressive, doesn't it?

Yes, and that's why she replies, I always think it's better to fuck while you are.

Yeah.

So I don't know.

Not sure who wins that one.

Anyway, so that's the argument situation.

Well played.

End of thing.

I wish I could relate.

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Wait, continue.

Hey, welcome back, podcasts.

That was Louis Theroux, of course, joining me on stage.

I'm so grateful to Louis for coming along and being my guest.

I think both of us are quite nervous to be in front of such a large audience in that legendary venue.

But it was a great night.

I think everyone had fun.

Louis's podcast on Spotify

continues to go from strength to strength.

But I'm encouraged to see that he has a new documentary out.

I think he should do more of that.

He's good at that.

Don't worry about the podcasting.

Just have a break.

10 years or something

and you carry on with that documentary making because it's good stuff.

The one on tomorrow night is called The Settlers.

14 years after his first visit, Louis Theroux meets some of the growing community of religious nationalist Israelis who have settled in the occupied West Bank.

Louis also meets Palestinians whose lives have been impacted by the settlers.

There you go.

That'll be nice and light.

Anyway, thank you so much, Louis, once again for being my guest.

I really appreciate it, and I look forward to the next time.

A couple of brief podcast recommendations before I say goodbye today.

I was very pleased to see that the Horn section podcast is back.

Alex Horn and his brilliant band pissing about.

That podcast got me through some dark times in the lockdown.

It's high-quality silliness and musical fun.

I've also been listening to another podcast that I've liked for a while and I mentioned before years ago though, Ezra Klein's podcast.

He is an American liberal political commentator and journalist and his podcast, The Ezra Klein Show, is excellent.

I mean he's

what is he 40 or something but

I mean he's very smart articulate guy.

And he has lots of interesting people on his podcast, usually talking politics in a fairly involved way.

But on the latest episode, it's a slightly different type of conversation.

He talks to a conservative American author and a fellow New York Times columnist called Ross Douthett, D-O-U-T-H-A-T.

He wrote a book called Believe Why Everyone Should Be Religious.

And he himself is a Roman Catholic.

Ezra Klein is Jewish but more of an atheist but he does talk about the fact that his mind is open to the mystery of the universe and it's a good conversation.

It reminds me of the kind of conversations that sometimes me and my friends would have at school albeit at a far stupider level.

But Ross and Ezra start off talking about Christianity within the Trump administration and to what extent Trump and people in his cabinet are governed by their religious faith.

But then the conversation goes to more unexpected areas and they talk about various forms of mysticism and the supernatural and

the possibility that the supernatural world could be accessed by the use of psychedelics and mind-expanding drugs and the fact that that would be dangerous because a lot of people accessing those realms wouldn't have the proper training to deal with what they find there.

That's just one of the sections.

And you know, Ezra Klein, as a skeptic, is pushing back on some of this.

And Ross Douthat, and well, you have to listen to the conversation.

I'm not going to do either of them justice by describing it, but it was really fascinating.

And it reminded me as well of my mum, who was religious,

and told me when I was quite young

about the dangers of Ouija boards

and I remember being surprised that she would

warn me about those things because even though she was religious in her later life like when we were kids I didn't get the sense that religion was that important to her but I guess that was the way she was brought up

and

She was warning me off the old Ouija board, saying that that was a possible portal to the dark side that I didn't want to mess with.

And I was very struck by that because I thought, really, do you believe in all that then, mum?

Anyway, this conversation with Ezra Klein and Ross Dalfort reminded me of that and made me think,

actually, maybe I should have taken Mum a little bit more seriously.

I write about that in my book.

Sorry to mention the book again.

But I write about it in quite a stupid, irreverent way.

You won't be surprised to hear.

And listening to the Ezra Klein podcast today made me think perhaps I should have been a little more reverent.

See what you think.

Okay, I'm going to head back now.

Thank you very much indeed.

Once again, to Louis and Richard,

and everybody as well who was involved with the podcast tour, particularly the tour crew, Ben Saunders, Richard Walsh, Annalisa Lembo, and everyone at Crosstown Promotions.

Thanks to Becca Bryers Bryers for her wrangling of the live recording.

Thanks very much indeed, even more than usual to Seamus Murphy Mitchell.

He was there on the day in London last year and it was great to have him there.

I was very nervous and Seamus was really a crucial part of helping it all go smoothly and enabling me to enjoy it.

So thank you so much, Seamus.

Thanks to Helen Green, she does the artwork for the podcast.

Thanks to everyone at ACAST.

And thanks to you for coming back.

Oh, it's quite cold cold now.

Come here.

Allow me to warm you up in a completely non-creepy way.

Hey, how are you doing?

Good to see you.

All right.

Till next time, please go carefully.

It's still nutty out there.

And for what it's worth, I love you.

Bye.

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