EP.232 - PATRIC GAGNE ON BEING A SOCIOPATH & UPLIFTING MOVIE PICKS FROM PODCAST FRIENDS

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin.

Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening.

I took my microphone and found some human folk.

Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke.

My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man.

I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan.

Hey, how are you doing, podcasts?

It's Adam Buxton here.

Oh, come on.

Group hug.

People are freaking out right now, but here's what they don't get, Caddy K.

He is an orange wrecking ball.

Why is that important?

Here's why.

He's just made the greatest political comeback since Grover, Cleveland.

And that has resonation, okay?

Here's what I predict, Caddy K.

Okay, he's going to hire an all-British cabinet.

He loves the British, Caddy K.

He plays golf there in Scotch land, and he likes wimpy and drizzle, and he's gonna hire Philip Schofield as his chief of staff, Caddy K, and Noel Edmonds as his defense secretary.

I'm running out of steam with my scaramucci impression.

Just trying to cheer you up a little bit, that's all, if you need cheering up.

Okay, look, come on.

Let me tell you about podcast number 232, which features a conversation with American writer, former therapist, and advocate for people suffering from sociopathic, psychopathic, and antisocial personality disorders, Patrick Gagne.

In her memoir, Sociopath, published earlier this year, 2024, Patrick writes, Your friends would probably describe me as nice, but guess what?

I can't stand your friends.

I'm a liar.

I'm a thief.

I'm highly manipulative.

I don't care what other people think.

I'm capable of almost anything.

That's a line that is typical of the book's frequently frothy, novelistic style.

And Patrick describes some hair-raising acts of antisocial and even violent behaviour in the course of telling her story.

But the book is also an account of the frequently painful process of trying to better understand her diagnosis of sociopathy and its implications for her and people like her.

In an interview from earlier this year in Psychology Today, Patrick said, in pop culture, the term sociopathy has been misappropriated to represent every manner of evil.

Any Google search related to sociopathy is likely to reveal little more than a list of serial killers alongside a decades-old behavioral checklist.

These represent the most extreme versions of the sociopathic personality, and yet they've been co-opted to encapsulate the entirety of the disorder.

This needs to change.

Patrick also points out in that interview that there's a lot of confusion regarding the use of the word sociopath.

She says that there is a belief that the term was replaced by antisocial personality disorder.

It's critical to note, she says, that you cannot diagnose sociopathy using the DSM criteria for antisocial personality disorder.

The two have different diagnostic requirements and should not be used synonymously.

This gap also means that the systems in place for dealing with most psychological conditions, from diagnosis to treatment to health insurance, aren't available for sociopaths.

This isn't good for us or for society.

My conversation with Patrick, who incidentally was born in 1976 and raised in San Francisco, California, was recorded face-to-face in London back in April of this year.

And we talked about what the difference is between a sociopath and a psychopath.

We also talked about the New York Times article that Patrick wrote back in 2020 entitled, He Married a Sociopath, Me.

Sorry, I'm really using the word sociopath a lot.

There's not that much I can do about it.

Anyway, in that article, Patrick wrote about her condition in the context of her marriage in a way that many people were surprised to find was quite relatable.

We talked, well, I was surprised anyway, we talked about to what extent TV reality game shows and prank shows positively encourage sociopathic traits, with passing reference to Ashton Kutcher and Jason Goldberg's early 2000s MTV prank show Punked.

I also asked Patrick towards the end of our conversation about a few of the more sceptical responses that some people have had to her and the book.

And I also just checked a few of my less desirable traits with her to see whether she thought I had anything to worry about.

The fact that I was a little trepidatious before meeting Patrick perhaps speaks to the kind of prejudice that she's hoping to address with this book.

Anyway, I really enjoyed meeting her and talking to her, and

I think she had a good time too, but I don't know, see what you think.

Hello, podcast.

Sorry for the sudden change of scene.

I'm I'm in London now

because I finished recording the intro

and then I had to get the train to London.

I ran out of time before recording the outro

but I wanted to flag that in the outro there will be a handful of movie recommendations from some friends of the podcast including Richard Iwudde,

Alex Horne, Tash and Jamie Dimitriou,

and Kim Deal.

So stick around for that.

But right now, with Patrick Gagne, here we go.

Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat.

We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that.

Come on, let's do the fat and have a ramble chat.

Post on your conversation, hope to find your talking hat.

So I wanted to start really by asking you why you wrote the book in the first place.

I guess it came out of the New York Times piece, is that right, in 2020?

Not exactly.

I had written most of the book before that.

And I remember saying to my husband, here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to try to write this piece for the New York Times.

And if it's accepted, and if it's understood, then I'll release the book.

Because at the time, I was

very reluctant in releasing a memoir.

I like to joke around that I did everything I could to not write a memoir.

I tried sociopath self-help.

I tried a sociopath for dummies type index, but ultimately it was the personal stories that people kept resonating most with.

And I thought, all right, I'll write this memoir and then I'll write this modern love article.

Modern love being a strand in the New York Times, where people write about their relationships.

Correct.

And if the Times accepts it, and if the greater public accepts it,

it was sort of my litmus test for whether I wanted to release the book.

But the book for the most part was done before I wrote the article.

And the response to the article was good.

I mean, it was fulsome.

People were excited about it.

A lot of commentary about it.

Did you follow that commentary?

Were you aware of what people were saying, how they were responding?

Not really.

And that's

this is where my husband tends to get into trouble because he does follow it a little too closely.

But I

was overwhelmed by the emails that I received directly from people all over the world saying that they felt seen, that they could identify with some of the things that I had discussed on that Modern Love article.

And for the most part, I discussed very little.

There was, you know, hints of my personality type here and there, but I was really encouraged by all of the people who, for the first time, said that they

had a name for the way that they were feeling and they felt less alone.

So that was my experience after the Modern Love article.

I was really encouraged by how many people who identified with my personality type were feeling seen for the first time.

So in the article, you lay out briefly what your history is.

I mean, would you do that for me now?

Would you sort of explain to me how you became aware that you were, would you call yourself neurodivergent?

Completely.

So I understood very early on that I was different.

I had a sister, a younger sister, so I knew what complex emotional development looked like, and I understood that I didn't have it.

I also understood at an early age that talking about that, telling people that I didn't feel empathy, telling people that I didn't care about certain things that I was quote unquote supposed to care about was the quickest way to get into trouble.

So I learned very early how to hide.

And it was a coping mechanism that,

because I was never treated, developed into a lifestyle.

I started experiencing compulsions toward destructive acts.

I didn't understand why.

I just knew as a kid,

if I knocked over this picture onto the glass, some part of me would get a release.

There was a type of pressure that I remember experiencing.

Looking back, what I've sort of pieced together

is that it was most likely my brain's way of trying to sort of jolt itself into feeling.

But what's important to note, and this is a question that I get asked a lot, is the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath.

So, a psychopath

believes to suffer from biological abnormalities that make it impossible for them to move through complex emotional development.

So, while they are born with the same emotions most people are born with, or all people are born with - joy,

anger, happiness, happiness, sadness, they're unable to learn the so-called social emotions.

So these are emotions that are taught to us as kids, shame, guilt, love, empathy.

Psychopaths are unable to learn those emotions.

That is different from a sociopath who is capable of learning those emotions.

They just learn them differently.

And that was very much my experience.

I didn't connect to things inherently the way that a lot of my peers and my sister did.

But as I got older, I realized, oh, I can love.

I just

come through a different door than others seem to.

And

once I got my diagnosis and I really started researching the personality type, I was amazed at how little resources were available to people with my personality type.

And we're talking about 5% of the population is the sort of, you know,

going understanding of how many people suffer from psychopathy.

And yet there's nothing in any bookstore.

There are no resource books or support groups or treatment plans.

I was sort of left on my own to figure it out, and I did the best that I could with what I had, which was a lot.

When did you receive your diagnosis then?

In my 20s.

My father insisted that I start seeing a therapist and I did semi-reluctantly, but also not so, because

as I got older, my destructive behaviors started to escalate.

And although I had done a decent job of managing them,

I really wanted to understand what was going on with me.

Yeah.

What are the main traits of a sociopath?

I would say that the main trait of a sociopath is shallow emotion.

So we have a difficult time internalizing the social emotions.

We have a difficult time connecting with others, empathizing.

Shame and guilt are not something with which I have a struggle, but we can learn them.

And I think that sociopaths are often judged for their behavior, which is very fair.

However, not all sociopaths act the same way.

And that was something I sort of picked up on when I was looking into the research.

Everything about the research was behavioral-based.

And I remember thinking, who's to say all sociopaths act like that?

I remember also finding there to be a lot of gender bias.

One of the hallmark traits of the sociopath is social dominance.

So someone who is sociopathic is going to come in and they're going to be loud and physically aggressive.

Alphas.

But that's really male.

As a woman, I don't assert my dominance that way.

I do that through charm and sex.

I'm not going to come in throwing punches and knocking people off chairs.

And I feel that those nuances are missed in the diagnostics and just the understanding of the disorder in general.

Right.

I suppose sociopath is one of those terms that people like to toss around and have done so increasingly in the last 20 years or so, a bit like narcissist.

You know, it's one of those things.

Suddenly everyone is an expert in psychology.

And so, oh yeah, that guy, he's a total narcissist.

Or, I think they're on the spectrum for sociopathy there a little bit.

Everyone's on the spectrum.

I mean, now it's frowned upon a little bit more because people are more aware of autism and complex conditions like that, and they're trying to be more empathetic, broadly speaking, in society.

So, people might take a beep before saying that someone is on the spectrum these days.

But, yeah, sociopath is still very much tossed around, isn't it?

And I guess people are thinking about,

which you note in your book, popular culture, shows like Dexter, although Dexter's more of a psychopath, right?

I would imagine, although he has the discipline to

understand what he's doing is wrong, and he's taking the steps to take a pro-social

approach to them.

He only chops up baddies.

Correct, which I think would speak to someone probably on the sociopathic spectrum more than on the psychopathic spectrum.

Okay.

But I, but he's a fictional character, and that's a guess.

Yeah.

And also the character,

his character is able to bond.

He has a close relationship with his sister.

He has a close relationship with some of his friends.

The discipline that that character demonstrates, I don't know.

I've always been on the fence with Dexter.

Yeah, did you enjoy that show though?

I did.

I really did.

Yeah, I had a complex and conflicted relationship with Dexter.

I did think it was sort of entertaining, but a lot of the time I just wanted Dexter to fuck off.

I know.

He was just quite an annoying person.

And actually, I was going to say, like,

on the sociopathic spectrum, presumably there are dangerous people, right?

Yeah, and that's the point I really want to make clear: is that the reputation of sociopathy, to a large extent, is well earned.

There are people who are believed to have been sociopaths that committed heinous crimes, but

so have there been narcissists and so have there been schizophrenics.

And, you know, to boil down a personality type to only the most extreme versions, I think, is problematic in much the same way it would be if you were only choosing to acknowledge stage four cancer.

If the only cancers you are willing to acknowledge are stage four,

you're going to miss stages one, two, and three when they're still treatable.

It all but guarantees more stages that are fatal and extreme.

Who would do that?

Nobody would.

And yet, that's exactly what happens with sociopathy.

These extreme examples only make up a very small percentage of the overall personality type, and yet they've been misappropriated to define the totality of it.

And it's basically blocking people on the moderate side from getting the treatment and the resources that they so desperately need.

But presumably, one problem with the milder side of the spectrum is that there's a fine line between a sociopath and just a dick.

It's true.

And so I suppose one suspicion that people could have of someone like you, for example, is that you're using sociopathy as a cloak of kind of

neurodivergent interest to cover up antisocial acts to celebrate sort of various flaws in your own personality.

Well, the only part about that I disagree with is that

I'm not trying to excuse or condone destructive behavior.

I have always been very clear that destructive behavior should always be addressed first.

If anyone comes to see a therapist, any personality type who is engaging in destructive behavior, be it self-harm or harm to others, that behavior should stop completely.

What I'm trying to get people to understand is the destructive behaviors in which I engaged were driven by a compulsion,

an almost an urge to act out.

And that's very different from someone who is

being intentionally malicious, getting off on harming others, getting off on

causing distress to others.

I don't ever remember feeling that way.

I remember feeling,

I have this opportunity to do this.

I don't really want to, but I know if I don't, this pressure is just going to increase.

So I just want to get get it over with.

And what was the nature of the pressure?

You call it stuck pressure in the book.

Stuck stress.

Stuck stress.

And so can you explain to me what that is and what that feels like?

It felt very claustrophobic.

I remember as a kid just feeling like I was trapped.

And what I have come to sort of piece together was that I was feeling apathy.

I was feeling nothing, which I have grown to be very comfortable with.

But as a child, the feeling of nothingness was a big indicator that there's something very different about you.

And if you don't find a way to either fix it or mask it,

you are going to be othered.

And it was that inner turmoil of, I have to feel something, I have to feel something.

And if I waited to,

if I pushed down on the compulsions, they would only get more extreme.

So I started engaging in smaller but more disciplined acts of deviance as a way to sort of offset the the larger,

you know, more spontaneous ones that tended to occur when I didn't act out as soon as I started the pressure begin its rise.

And so what were some of those?

What were some of the smaller acts?

When I was a kid, they could be anything from,

I remember stealing backpacks a lot at school.

Sometimes I took them home, but most of the times I didn't.

I would just toss them over.

some bushes.

That was you.

I was wondering when you were going to piece that together.

That was a fucking backpack.

No, it's probably still in the bushes where I threw it

but again I didn't want these things and I wasn't trying to half the time I didn't even know who the backpacks belonged to it was just this feeling of do it do it do it do it do it right and so then in your teens those acts got more dramatic more illegal is that right

Yeah.

And they were, what sort of things were you up to in those days?

The first thing I remember doing was following people.

And I remember thinking, I'm not following these people to scare them or to harm them.

I just, it was something that I knew I wasn't supposed to be doing.

And it wasn't harmful to others, but it really helped relieve some of the pressure.

Because you have control over that person when they don't know that you're following them.

Is that it?

No, I don't think it has anything to do with the other person at all.

It's this is something I'm not supposed to be doing.

And

I also think it had to do with I was alone.

I felt the least amount of pressure when I was alone.

Again, what I've sort of been able to piece together is when I was alone, there was no expectation of emotion from me.

There was nobody asking me, how do you feel?

Or you look weird or why is your face like that?

I was just able to not feel.

It was glorious.

And following people around allowed me to be with people, but also not have anything to do with them at the same time.

I think that's why as a kid, I loved doing it.

I loved watching people in their quote-unquote normal environments and sort of picturing myself in those environments one day.

That was my

dream as, oh, one day I'm going to be like them.

I'm going to be normal like them.

So on a day-to-day basis, would you be sort of doing impressions of the way you felt quote normal people behaved?

Yeah, and it's very taxing because I didn't, especially when I was a kid, I didn't have a lot to choose from.

I really

relied on my sister and her emotional cues.

She's not a sociopath.

She's the opposite.

She has vast emotional depths.

So I could only fake it by acting like her for so long because, as I said, I'm not a very good actress.

So my, you know,

I would

tip the hand eventually and they would figure out, oh, wait, you're not

anything like your sister.

She's younger than you.

Mm-hmm.

She is.

But every now and again, maybe sometimes when you get stressed, you forget to do it or if you're in physical pain.

No, I would just, it's exhausting.

I've explained, I've likened it to speaking a foreign language.

So I can speak a foreign language conversationally, okay.

But I've noticed that when I have to do it all day, by the end of the day, I'm exhausted.

And that's how I felt a lot when I was younger, sort of masking and mirroring.

It's a lot of work.

It's like the engine of a computer overheating, running all day.

And when I got to be alone, it was, oh, I don't have to have any of that.

I mean, what you're describing is a little bit like most people feel.

It really is.

And that's what I'm trying to get people to understand.

It was funny when

I

started writing this book.

I had friends say, I mean, you're a sociopath, but you're not a sociopath like that.

And it's, and that's the whole point.

Yes, the like that element is the extreme example.

Sociopathy, on the other hand, there's a lot of people that are

more moderate and very relatable.

I mean, everyone has that sort of front-facing persona that they always put on.

Sociopaths are not excluded from that.

We all wear it.

However, sociopaths seem to be the only personality type that

who are villainized for it.

So when I'm masking, it's because I'm trying to manipulate you, I'm trying to charm you or pull one over on you.

It's really not what I'm doing at all.

It's a coping mechanism.

Because if I drop the mask and I present myself as my true self, I'm not going to be as pleasant.

I'm going to be quieter.

I'm going to be watching you, not because I'm trying to cause you harm, but just because I'm different.

And I've learned that acting like a neurotypical person makes neurotypical people feel more comfortable.

It's not malicious.

It's common sense to me.

Yeah.

I mean, lying is a big part of the puzzle, isn't it?

And the New York Times piece focuses on

a lie that you felt your husband was perpetrating or a lack of honesty,

which was about the fact that you felt he had a crush on someone at work and he wasn't coming clean about it.

Despite the fact that negotiations over honesty had been central to your relationship to the point where you had a kind of knick-knack, a little sculpture.

What was it?

Statue of Liberty.

Statue of Liberty.

And that would be, you would leave it out for him

as an indication that you had done something sociopathic.

Right.

And it wasn't even like

that you had to sit down and discuss it and be honest.

It was just like an indication to him that you wanted to be honest about where you were at.

If he wanted to know, I would tell him.

Right, okay, yeah.

Regardless of how sociopathic it was.

Like if you did something very bad.

No, it was just anything.

It would be.

That was our deal.

He wanted to know any time I did something destructive, whether it was extremely destructive or very minor, he wanted to know.

Yeah, yeah.

And you stuck to that policy of honesty in your relationship, did you?

I did.

Yeah.

So then you got annoyed when you felt he wasn't being honest with you.

I mean, that's something, obviously, that anyone could relate to.

I thought so, too.

Those kinds of negotiations in a relationship.

And how did the rest of that conversation go then?

Did he ever admit that, oh, okay, yeah, I do have a crush, but I don't think it's useful to admit to it.

Yeah, and I think it really opened up

a healthy conversation because my husband is Italian Catholic and he was raised

to feel guilt about a lot of things.

And I think that

I think that when he started developing feelings for this woman, he felt badly about them as if he had a choice or a say in the way he was feeling.

And that's what I was trying to get at.

It's really natural for you to have feelings for someone else.

I don't believe as human beings, we're naturally monogamous.

I believe it's a choice that we make.

And I think that the best way to nurture that choice is to be honest.

If my husband sees someone in a bar that he finds attractive, I want him to tell me about it.

I want us to have that conversation.

So when I could tell that he was having feelings for this woman, I wanted him to tell me about it.

And he wouldn't.

And I think it's because he was lying to himself first and foremost.

And that's eventually what he sort of came to understand as well.

It's okay for you to have feelings for someone else.

It's okay for you to find someone else attractive.

And

to your point, I think that's really, really relatable.

for all types of personalities and all types of relationships.

Yeah, it is, but

the reason you're not completely transparent about those moments in a relationship is that you never know how it's going to go.

Correct.

And you don't want to blow it up, either because you can't face it,

but usually it's just because, well, I don't want to create this block in the relationship, this point of conflict, which will be exaggerated beyond what it actually means.

You know what I mean?

It's like crushes come and go and obsessions come and go in that way.

Right.

So,

why not have that be a part of your relationship?

I think that

it's problematic because so many people believe that when they get married or when they commit to one person, that that's it.

And they're never going to find anyone else attractive and they're never going to find anyone else interesting.

And if they do, that means something's wrong.

And what I was trying to explain to my husband is,

I think that

by

choosing to deny reality doesn't make that reality any less true.

It just makes you less safe within that reality.

So let's just acknowledge what's going on.

And in his case, he didn't have to worry about how it was going to be received because I was telling him, I know, and it's okay.

Let's just talk about it.

It was his refusal to talk about it and his refusal to admit these feelings.

And that was hard for me because, to your point, I was

asked to do the exact opposite, to work hard to have

increased self-awareness, increased understanding of my urges, increased understanding of my emotions or lack thereof.

And it felt very hypocritical to me that he wasn't willing to do the same or wasn't able to do the same at the time.

And are you honest with him?

Do you sort of get crushes in the same way?

And are you honest with him when that happens?

I don't get crushes in the same way, but I'm very honest if I find someone attractive.

And I try to lead by example.

So I'll say, I saw somebody cute today.

You want to hear about it?

And then

he'll decide whether he wants to hear about it or not.

He always says yes, but yeah.

Yeah, I mean,

I do relate to this a little bit.

I've had the conversation, I get frustrated with my wife because she claims, well, she's a bit inconsistent.

Every now and again, she'll say, oh, he's quite attractive.

And it'll be some absolute monster.

It'll be like a, it'll be a sort of more grotesque, hairier, more troll-like version of me.

And she goes, oh, he's attractive.

And I just think, are you saying that to make me feel better about being a bit of a hairy troll?

Or do you genuinely find hairy trolls attractive in that sport?

I hope you hope you say that.

I hope you ask.

Do you say that?

Yeah, I do, yeah.

But she won't admit it.

And every now and again, I'll say, I'll see a very good-looking guy.

I'm like, look at that guy.

I bet you wish you had a slice of that fellow.

And she's like,

no.

I'm like, don't, why are you, don't lie.

What's wrong with the guy?

Look at, there's nothing wrong with that bloke.

But she insists that she only finds trolls attractive.

So I don't know.

Maybe, maybe it's true, but I just can't believe it.

I don't know.

I think what men think women find attractive is not the same as what women, and sometimes it is.

But I've had similar conversations where that stereotypical, you know, quote-unquote hot guy, I'm just like, uh,

and it'll be someone else.

And he's like, really?

So I I don't know.

I think it,

it, I think that men have a very skewed perception of what some women find attractive, maybe not all.

Yeah, fair enough.

You talk very interestingly about your relationship with music in the book.

Your dad, is he still with us, your dad?

Is he still in the music industry?

Here and there.

He'll consult occasionally, but mostly he's retired.

A talent manager, is that right?

He did a lot of things.

He started in radio and did record promotions, and then he, the end of his career was spent in music management.

Okay.

And that's something you did a little bit as well.

Did you work for him?

Right.

And then were you ever independent?

Did you sort of set up on your own?

No.

No.

Nepotism, all the way.

Okay.

How long were you in the music industry?

Gosh, like 15 years, maybe.

But again, it's hard to...

I was just working for my dad.

You know, I don't want to get it twisted.

I didn't carve some, you know, niche for myself or stand on my own two feet, but it was sort of peering over his shoulder at first.

And then I did work full-time for him

sort of after college, towards the end of college.

You also worked on punked for a while?

No, no, no.

One of the artists at my father's

company met, yes, they were tapped to be

victims.

Actually, I think it happened more than one time.

Okay, right.

And so then you went along and watched the punking.

Yeah.

I wish I could have worked for punked.

That sounds like it would have been a great job for me.

They must have a few sociopaths working on that.

They do, I'm sure.

Well, I've always felt with any kind of pranking, it takes a certain amount of,

well,

there's got to be some careful management of shame and guilt.

And

yes, I was speaking to someone recently about the show Traitors

and how I started watching it.

And I was really blown away by how quickly all of these people dropped immediately into their, you know, quote-unquote sociopathic selves.

But yeah, like punct and traders, I mean, this is, it requires, I would say, a surplus of sociopathic fluidity.

Yeah, people like Sasha Baron Cohen.

Oh, yes.

Come on.

The greatest prankers of the world are also possibly the most massive wankers.

I'm not saying that Sasha Baron Cohen is, but.

But he certainly is able to step in and out of pro-social and antisocial

activity.

That's why those films are extraordinary, is because you're watching people doing things that most of us would never be able to do because there are too many things preventing us from doing so.

And if people are being honest, there's a bit of wish fulfillment in there.

Sure, yeah.

I wish I could be doing that.

Well, why can't you?

You know?

Because I'd get punched in the knob.

Have you ever talked to anyone who works on those kinds of shows?

I have.

They have one of the best jobs in the world.

The producers on those shows, the ones that are on the field with them.

I have a friend who used to do that for a living, and listening to her stories, it sounds like

it's what I always wanted as a kid: to be right in the middle of this

absolute chaos, but you're not expected to participate.

In fact, you're prevented from engaging at all.

So you're just

sitting there watching it all go down.

Yeah.

Do they screen for more extreme personality types?

Are they sort of trying to be responsible and going, well, look, we can't have a real, someone with real problems, like an extreme sociopath with dangerous tendencies.

They might make great TV.

We know they will, but we can't have that.

I mean, do you want to know how they really screen?

They ask for a list of medications and they screen that way.

So if they have your medications, they know what you're struggling with mentally.

I remember hearing that and thinking,

that's genius.

Because you can't ask someone if they struggle, or you can, but you're not going to ask someone if you struggle what mental disorders you have.

But if you get a list of their medications, the medications will tell you what they're struggling with.

Oh, that's dark.

I mean, I think that's changing a lot.

I'm sure all shows.

And this is

outdated.

This is from a while ago.

Right, right.

Because people have taken their own lives on some of those after being on some of those shows.

So the pastoral care care is a lot better now.

But still, even so, I mean, they can all kid themselves as much as they like that there are no consequences.

But going on, even Traitors, which was pretty good natured, people were invested in it in the right spirit, they understood.

But you can see watching the show, the emotions are real.

Yeah.

And afterwards, after you come out of a show like that, when you are made aware of the way that people are responding to it online or wherever, and the depth of genuine anger and passion that there is from people watching the show, that's got to do something to you as a person.

Did you ever used to get into, or do you still get into confrontations when things are unjust?

Like I know,

well, for example,

getting into rows with public officials or whatever who are being petty or anything like that?

No, no.

If I'm going to do something about it, I'm going to, I'm going to,

it's going to be subtle and

you're not going to know about it.

That's chilling.

I forgot to say when we were talking about music, I really liked the way that you customized the lyrics of some of your favorite songs to express how you actually felt about certain things.

Do you remember your customization of How Soon Is Now by the Smiths?

Of course, of course.

I am the queen and the heir of a numbness that is criminally vulgar.

I am the queen and heir of nothing in particular.

You shut your mouth.

How can you say?

I go about things the wrong way.

I am human with no need to be loved, not like everybody else does.

That's a good customization of Morrissey there.

And yeah, because I was interested in how you engage with popular culture, modern culture, films, TV shows, et cetera, that are all constructed around narratives of generally conventional sets of emotions and impulses.

And how do they appear to you and and how do you get your head around them how do you engage with them that's different from us other

people

music was always my companion i remember feeling less alone because music was something that everybody seemed to like myself included and yes i had to adjust the lyrics from time to time in order to make them fit but

again it was it was sort of like

As my young self, I was standing outside of like department store glass and on the other side was this colorful world of emotion and all these people connecting.

And I think I say this in the book.

Yeah, it's in this scene.

I know exactly where it is.

I wrote,

it's so hard to explain because I don't relate to other people the way you do, the way most people do.

I don't care about things normal people care about.

I don't like interacting with people because they don't connect to me and I can't connect to them.

But just because I can't connect doesn't mean I don't wish I could.

And that was really

how I felt.

You know,

watching movies and television, it gave me, again, this proximity to normal that I couldn't get elsewhere.

And so I might not have been able to connect to everything.

I liked the company.

I liked.

sitting in it.

It was

it was, I think, nice in the same way that someone who's neurotypical would find it nice.

Yet you got company.

They might not be like you, but

you got company.

And yet that seems to me at odds with not caring, which seems a central part of your psychological makeup as well.

It's a sort of blanket statement, like, I don't care.

I don't tend to care about things that neurotypical people care about.

So

there's a lot of fixation on what other people think.

There's a lot of fixation on people pleasing, on what I ought to do, or or what I should do.

To your point, what irks you, what offends you, nothing.

I don't care.

But

I do care.

It's just I care differently.

And film and television and music gave me the permission to care in the way that came naturally to me without any repercussions, positive or negative.

I wanted to ask you about...

When you were writing the book,

was there a conversation about how you were going what style you were going to use for example when you're recounting presumably true moments and incidents and conversations you are recounting them in detail oh sure and you're talking about presumably you're sitting there and you're embellishing real recollections and you're sort of semi-imagining them So I remember, some things I remember with absolute clarity.

Other things I remembered the way that

I felt in that moment.

If I can, sometimes they were

verbatim quotes, and sometimes they were.

I know that this person didn't say exactly this way, but this is what they meant when they said it.

So I would write it that way.

And everyone with whom I've spoken that's in the book has been really pleased with the way they're presented.

Okay, I was going to ask, yeah, because presumably you've got pseudonyms for most people in there.

Presumably, there are a few composite characters.

Yes.

Yeah.

But I'm sure.

Very few.

I can only think of

two.

Yeah.

But presumably, there are some people who could identify themselves.

Oh, for sure.

I mean, you laugh when you're reading the section in the audiobook in a way that sounds very candid and genuine.

When you're talking about your husband's boss and you're going for dinner, and your husband's boss has made it clear to your husband that he doesn't like it when women use bad language.

And so it may as well have been a dare.

So you go to dinner and inevitably you drop some F-bombs.

But does your husband just not know that guy anymore, so it's not an issue?

Or is that awkward, that kind of thing?

I never liked that guy.

He was an untrustworthy person.

And

my husband did not feel the same way, but hindsight is 20-20, and

he was very okay with me relaying that story.

Okay, right.

People are obviously fascinated by what's real and what's not.

And actually,

you know, I'm interested in the sort of novelistic approach to the memoir form because it does blur the lines and it does make it confusing for a reader.

They are wondering, like, is this real?

How much of this can I take as gospel?

And then when you are also talking about serious subjects, it raises the stakes and people then get antsy about it.

And then they, you know, because at a certain point I sort of it occurred to me like well what's to say that this person Patrick hasn't just invented this entire personality this entire persona five years ago your backgrounds in acting and comedy in some to some degree you sort of think here's the thing you know I have these atypical personality traits I could create this character who is a sociopath.

I could write about her life from a first-person point of view.

It would make a good story.

I've had some interesting experiences.

And, you know, I suddenly had this thought.

I was like, well, I should check that that isn't the case.

So I was sort of looking online for hits for Patrick Gagne 2015 or whatever, just to see if you had a life online beforehand.

And then in the process of doing that, came across a series of posts on Reddit where they're talking about the novel.

You know, there's inevitably going to be some kind of discussions about what's real, what's not.

Are we being taken for a ride here?

Is this person's credentials all legit?

Are they just sort of exploiting this condition to get a book out of it?

And if it's okay with you, I wanted to put some of the specific comments

that I found there to you.

So, I mean, I think we've dealt with some of these over the course of the last hour or so.

Someone here says, this is the Kraken.

Says, I could understand someone trying to declaim the term sociopath, but this article, I think they're talking about the New York Times article, also felt like an unethical way to publicly accuse her husband of dishonesty and, at the very least, emotional infidelity.

When that's coupled with the fact that she doesn't post her credentials or have much info about mental health in general on her website that is supposedly dedicated to mental health advocacy, I get funky vibes.

That's fair.

To the first point, my husband actually edited that New York Times piece before it went out.

I don't show anyone anything before my husband sees it out of respect to him, but also because

I don't have the best barometer for what's okay.

And he does.

So

everything goes through him.

And I've never been someone who was

a sharer.

When I got my PhD, I did that for myself.

I wasn't,

I wish I could say that I was an altruistic person, but really it was selfishly motivated.

So although, yes, I work in advocacy, all of my work has just been my own thing.

I haven't tried to be public.

I haven't wanted to be overly vocal about it until now.

And that website was just sort of a placeholder.

I didn't think about it in terms of credentials or believability.

I didn't consider that at all.

When you say your PhD was selfishly motivated, that's because you wanted to understand what was going on before you get right

now.

Over the course of

my doctorate, I realized, oh, I'm going to have to learn about these other personality types too.

But it was a gift that I'm incredibly grateful to have received, if not reluctantly, because understanding other personality types really helped me understand the world and my place in it and neurodivergent places in it.

Here is a comment from

someone about the dissertation saying her dissertation is legit according to the school's registrar, but it's not available online, as most dissertations are, the entire point being that they're meant to contribute to public knowledge, and most schools require students to have them made available.

The average grad student leaves a track record.

So they're just sort of worried about why isn't it more visible, easily found.

I understand.

It wasn't a requirement.

All I was required to do was log a copy with the school library, which I did, and then I was done.

And

I think a lot of people want to contribute in a way,

especially if you're pursuing like a researcher track.

That wasn't what I was doing.

I was just trying to get my degree and get out of there.

I think we've sort of covered this, but someone called Mamba Spice says, How has she gone through her entire life doing all this crazy illegal shit and zero consequences?

Because I'm white and I'm blonde and I've got enough money that I can slide beneath the radar.

There is no question, you know, sociopathy is sociopathy, but how that experience is lived

differs greatly dependent on race, gender, and socioeconomic stratas.

And I understand that.

And

I would not be here today if I hadn't had the resources to pursue a degree, pursue a graduate degree, and spend years in therapy.

And I had also the luxury of time where I could sit in libraries for hours on end researching this stuff.

That's a great answer to that, but I wonder if we could preface that now by just sort of running quickly through some of the more extraordinary things that you did.

Is that okay?

Of course.

There's a whole motif in the book about a woman that was trying to blackmail you at one point.

Is that all true?

Oh, yeah.

Really?

I mean, you'll be hard-pressed to find anything.

I mean, there are going to be some things that might be composite, so details have been changed, but the stories are true.

Hmm.

I mean, you certainly were driven to the point of getting so upset and angry with her that you thought about hurting her.

That was, that was tough.

That was a real,

especially because at that, this was at a time in my life where I was really teetering on what's the point?

You know,

I get the same result whether I give in to my darkest impulses or not.

At the time, my then boyfriend and I were struggling.

I didn't really like my job very much.

And I remember thinking, I could do this and I could get away with it.

So why don't I just do it?

It was a real, it was a real struggle, especially because this person was so vile.

And

I felt at the time that I had all the justification in the world

to do something to her, even though I really didn't need the justification.

and to explain for people who haven't read the book she was trying to blackmail you because her son was managed by your dad at a certain point and she was unhappy with how that had gone

why didn't she try and blackmail him directly she reckoned that she had pictures of him getting up to all sorts i think that she thought i was an easier target right okay when boy was she wrong she should have gone for him yeah

and then after you resisted the impulse to do anything violent, did that feel good or was that just frustrating?

No, it was frustrating.

So I remember keeping her on the line for a while, like just like a fish on a line.

I would tug at it just because I didn't, I could have paid her off and made her go away.

I could have just ignored her, but I didn't.

I would answer the phone calls.

I would, I would toy with her.

And I kept that going for longer than I should have because I got a jolt just from

messing with her.

But did it upset you?

Did it frighten you that this person was not?

It delighted me in the sense that, ah, okay, now I don't need to look for anything.

I don't need to look for my jolts of emotion because I have free meat on which I can feed for as long as you'll keep giving it to me.

It was an excuse

to give in to all sorts of bad behavior.

And sorry if you've sort of said all this before, but

I still find myself confused by the idea that you are bothered by certain parts of your behavior.

Isn't that the same as guilt?

Isn't that just guilt in another form?

No, because I don't feel guilty about my behavior.

I didn't like that I was unable to make the urges dissipate

without being reliant on destructive behavior.

Because overall, it wasn't an effective strategy.

I was able to get away with it for a while, but I wouldn't have been able to get away with it forever.

And ultimately, I wanted to

get married.

I wanted to enjoy the perks of society.

And I knew that the two lifestyles could not coexist.

I had to be a normie.

Well, I wanted to be able to exist among the normies.

Okay.

And I knew that

breaking into houses and stealing cars, that wasn't the best long-term strategy.

Have you ever come across someone socially and thought, oh mate, you are so sociopathic and you don't know it?

Yeah, and I think it's

what it boils down to is just

sort of like the lights are on, but no one's home type thing.

So they're saying all the right things.

They're doing all the right things.

They're very, very charming.

But you'll ask them,

you'll get them talking about maybe their significant other, you know, really like, oh, I'm so in love with her.

You'll get them talking, talking, talking.

And then you'll say,

what's your favorite movie?

And they won't know, or what's your favorite song?

And they won't know, or just anything beyond an extension of themselves or an extension of what they're quote-unquote supposed to say.

They can't back it up with any actual knowledge of the person.

That's usually a pretty good giveaway.

Unfortunately, it's also a giveaway of a narcissist.

So, fuck.

Sorry.

Tick and tick.

I thought I would share with you some of my borderline sociopathic traits and see what you thought.

Please.

Always happy to be in good company.

All right, good.

I did a bit of stealing when I was younger, but a lot of people do, don't they?

A lot of people do.

Go through some shoplifting phases.

Yes.

Well, I had one incident of

stealing some chewing gum when I was really very little.

I saw it on the floor of a shop, took it home, and

knew that I shouldn't, but justified it to myself because it was on the floor.

I thought, oh, well, they don't want it anymore.

It's fine, I can have it.

And then my dad found, he's like, what are you doing with this?

This was not paid for.

And then he burned it.

It was such a weird thing to do with chewing gum.

It really is.

I was not expecting that.

I just remember seeing it dribble down the fake coal

and thought, that's not the way to deal with stolen chewing gum.

How about someone like Donald Trump?

And I know this is a cliche thing to say, but would you look at someone like him and go, yep, he's on some kind of spectrum, or at least he is operating without certain governing emotions that most of us have to reckon with?

Again, you know, I'm going to...

Go back to what you said before.

You were talking about how your own, like the things that you did, what it was that was sociopathic, the stealing.

I would look at the motivation for that behavior.

And that's really what this all boils down to, because everybody has those bouts of thievery when they're kids or they're up to something and even into adulthood or adolescence.

What is motivating that behavior?

My guess is you weren't stealing those things because you felt apathy and you were trying to force a pop of feeling.

Same with someone like Donald Trump.

You're looking at this.

antisocial behavior.

I look at the motivation behind the behavior.

And what I see is a lot of emotion.

I don't see a void.

I see a surplus.

So I would rule him out of the sociopathic camp for that reason, that I see him as being a very emotional person.

Right, okay.

And his emotions are, depending on whether you like him or not, for someone like me, I don't admire the guy.

And if there's emotion there, it is directed at improving his lot in the world and accessing power.

And that leans more toward narcissism than sociopathy.

Right.

And also, narcissism is also associated with grandiosity to a large extent.

So if you look at everything has to be the best, everything has to be perfect, and that also speaks to him and his lifestyle.

I'm still thinking about what my wife's favorite film is.

I don't know if I know.

Well, you might be in trouble.

Shit.

You can probably tell me your favorite genre.

Yes, I would say it's generally romantic comedies with Jennifer Anniston.

Although I've said that publicly before and she goes, fuck off, it's not.

But I think she does like those.

Oh, I'll tell you what her favorite film is.

See, here it is.

I think it's Alpha Papa with Alan Partridge.

Have you ever seen that?

It's pretty good.

Okay.

But it's not as good as she thinks it is.

And I refuse to watch it for the sake of time.

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Continue.

If you believe that God makes miracles, you have to wonder if Satan has a few up his sleeve.

Fuck off, Dexter.

Hey, welcome back, podcasts.

That was Patrick Gagne there.

I'm very grateful to her for making the time to talk to me.

There's a few links in the description of today's podcast if you'd like to do some further Patrick-related reading.

So, as you can hear, I'm in London, as I said at the end of my intro.

I just timed everything wrong.

I thought I had enough time to record the intro and the outro before I left for London, but I didn't.

So

that's why I'm here now.

In East London I'm staying tonight recording with another podcast guest tomorrow and I have a couple of meetings

but I thought rather than just record this in my room on my own I'd come out and you could enjoy the sounds of groovy East London.

I'm just off Brick Lane right now.

I'm looking over towards Rough Trade Records.

Anyway, as I said at the end of the intro, I wanted to share a few recommendations for movies that you might find uplifting if you could use a break.

Or, you know, you just fancy a

bit of an uplift.

I think you've earned it.

So rather than just trotting out my usual ones, which I might end up doing anyway at some point, I ended up texting a few former podcast guests to ask them for some recommendations.

I got some nice responses.

A few well-known titles, some a bit more obscure, several I hadn't actually seen.

So I thought I would share a few of them with you over the next few weeks.

Today I'm going to do a few people's recommendations and maybe it might be too much,

but

what you can do is just watch a few trailers that you think sound interesting.

I'll put links in the description.

And then you can make your choice.

I'm trying to give you as many options as possible, even though sometimes it's better to have fewer options.

Shut up, buckles, just give the recommendations all right calm down so first of all i texted friend of the podcast tash dimitriou she said i'll have a think top of my head home alone too because there's that guy in it that i love donald trump bit of humor from tash there i've never seen home alone too maybe she genuinely likes that movie but she also picked working girl which i like too actually directed by mike nichols 1989 tess an ambitious young secretary played by Melanie Griffith

aspires to become successful financially its very 80s and aspirational big hair big shoulder pads when her boss gets injured her boss played by Sigourney Weaver during a skiing accident she takes advantage of the opportunity to make headway in her career with the help of Harrison Ford Everyone's on good form in that movie.

Melanie Griffith's brilliant in it.

I agree with that choice, Tash.

I like that movie too.

Bridesmaids, of course, quite a few people said bridesmaids.

I mean, I've said before many times on this podcast, that never fails to cheer me up.

The plane scene, especially, directed by Paul Fieg, 2011.

I don't really need to tell you what it's about.

It's about some bridesmaids.

It's Maya Rudolph is in there, Rosebyne, Melissa McCarthy, Chris O'Dowd is fantastic.

I mean, they're all brilliant in that.

Kristen Wig, though, oh my goodness, amazing.

And a movie I haven't seen, which Tash recommends for uplift, Now and Then, directed by Leslie Linker Glatter,

1986.

Four childhood friends gather to prepare for the birth of Chrissy's baby.

It's Chrissy's baby.

They wonder how the girls they were at 12 years could possibly have become the women they are now.

It stars Rosie O'Donnell, Christina Ritchie, Demi Moore, Melanie Griffith, Gabby Hoffman, and Thora Birch.

It looks a bit like,

you know, it's a sort of rites of passage teen friendship movie.

Not totally unlike Stand By Me, but maybe a bit more

cuddly.

But I haven't seen it.

It looks fun.

So those are Tash's recommendations.

Now, here is a voice message from friend of the podcast, Richard Iawadi.

Hi, Adam.

The one that came immediately to mind was

Stop Making Sense.

But I suppose you have to, well, I don't know that you have to already be a Talking Heads fan, but if you don't like their music, it's probably not that uplifting.

But I'd say by the end of that film, when everyone's standing up and you've gone through the various David Byrne drivings, it's pretty good.

Monterey Pop Festival, I'd also say it's consistently uplifting.

Now, for whatever reason, I I also find the American movie documentary that Chris Smith made incredibly uplifting, although it's got melancholy in it.

Okay, I hope you will.

Bye.

There you go, Richard Iowade.

Wow, I love Stop Making Sense.

Regular podcats may have heard me getting teary about it back in the day when Jonathan Demi died.

But I do love that film directed by Jonathan Demi Talking Heads concert film, thought to be one of the best concert films ever made

and it is absolutely uplifting American Utopia is brilliant as well the film of David Byrne's concert directed by Spike Lee I think which came out three years ago or something that's very good Garth Jennings

another friend of the podcast recommends that one Even if you're not like the biggest Talking Heads and David Byrne fan, I would recommend that one.

If you like music,

check it out.

American Movie as well, that's a great shout.

I haven't seen that for years, not since it came out.

That was released in 1999.

And Chris Smith, the director of that film,

he was on the podcast

talking about Jim and Andy, the documentary he made about Jim Carey.

playing Andy Kaufman.

And he's also directed a load of other excellent documentaries.

He directed a great documentary about Wham that's on Netflix that I really recommend.

That came out last year, in fact.

And that will really put a smile on your face, I think.

And American movie, yeah, I'd forgotten.

That's a beautiful film.

Chris Smith and Sarah Price, they spent two years documenting the making of Mark Borschard's short film, Coven, or Coven, as he calls it.

He's an American independent movie maker, and it's a film all about ambition and friendship and perseverance and overcoming creative and financial challenges.

And it's so lovely, and inspiring, and funny, and ridiculous.

Thank you very much, Richard, for those.

Now, here's a recommendation from brilliant comedian and taskmaster creator Alex Horne.

Hello, Adam.

I would really recommend a movie called Next Gold Wins.

I found it really uplifting when I watched it on an aeroplane recently.

I think it was written by Taikawatiti

and Ian

who did the in-betweenness.

I've since been told that the documentary is much better.

It's about a football team in the Pacific Islands.

who don't normally do very well

but you've guessed it.

In this movie they do quite well.

In this movie they do quite well.

And it makes you feel good.

Next goal wins.

Thank you very much.

Alex musical recommendation.

Beautiful.

Next goal wins.

That is the dramatized version of a documentary that was released in 2014.

So the one that Alex was talking about was directed by Taika Waititi,

who I'm sure many of you will know directed Hunt for the Wilder People.

That is another film that will definitely provide some uplift, I would say.

I haven't seen Next Goal Wins, either Taika Waititi's version of it or the documentary version, which coincidentally was also recommended by...

Well, actually, someone who hasn't been on the podcast yet, but he's definitely a listener and a friend of the podcast, and I hope he will get on here at some point.

It's great comedian,

great guy, star of Stathlets Flats, brother of Tash Dimitriu.

It's Jamie Dimitriou.

The documentary Next Goal Wins by Mike Brett and Steve Jamieson is my instinctive response when anyone asks for an uplifting film.

It's about the American Samoan football team who received the highest battering in the history of national football, 31-0 against Australia.

To this day, it's the only film that I've ever reached the credits of, and then just immediately clicked the button that takes you back to the beginning of the film to watch it again.

And then, after the second time, I did the same thing again.

So, I suppose the only thing that wasn't uplifting about it was me worrying that there was something wrong with me, that I was willing to watch this documentary for about four and a half hours on the trot.

There we go.

So, that is high praise from Jamie.

I've got to watch that film.

Next goal wins.

Finally, in this inaugural roundup of uplifting movie recommendations on the podcast, it's a text one

and this is from someone that I have recorded a podcast with but it's we're still waiting on a few clearance issues to be resolved.

But it is musician Kim Deal of Pixies and the Breeders.

Her album Nobody Loves You More comes out towards the end of this month, November 2024.

And I asked Kim for some some recommendations for uplifting movies and she texted back and said

uplifting um

when I'm depressed I like jump scares I like screaming no

while my fingers are stretched out in front of my face I did this during the whole pandemic with my sister on FaceTime and it worked wonders It really elevated my mood.

I'll be doing this again a lot.

Here are some for you to try with your family and friends.

So she's gone for horror movies.

That's how Kim Deal

is uplifted.

And her picks are The Omen, directed by Richard Donner, 1976.

That's a classic.

But to be clear, it is a horror film.

It's about the son of Satan.

And it's,

you know, not what everyone would consider uplifting.

She also recommends Smile 2, directed by Charlie Saroff.

That came out this year.

I haven't seen that one.

And I've heard people saying it's even better than Smile 1, which I also haven't seen.

About to embark on a new world tour, global pop sensation Sky Riley begins to experience increasingly terrifying and inexplicable events.

Overwhelmed by the escalating horrors and pressures of fame, she must face her dark past to regain control of her life before it spirals out of control.

That's Smile 2.

So that's where I'm going to leave the movie recommendations this week.

That's probably way too many.

We'll streamline the idea if we continue with it.

I've got a few more, like loads of people came back to me.

So I will share some of those with you over the coming weeks in the outros.

But that's it for this week from here in glamorous East London.

Thank you very much indeed once again to Patrick Gagne.

Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support, conversation editing and general greatness.

Thanks to Helen Green.

She does the beautiful illustration for this podcast.

Thanks to all at ACAST who continue to work hard, keeping the show on the road with my sponsors.

But thanks most of all, to you for listening, for coming back.

You listened right to the end again.

Thanks.

You're the best.

You are the best one of the listeners.

The others...

They, you know, they say they like the podcast, but do they really?

I was talking to a friend of mine this week, and he was

saying that he'd seen some guy say, oh yeah, I used to like Adam Buxton's podcast, but then I listened to the Robbie Williams episode and I didn't like the way he treated Robbie on that one.

I thought we had some good bants, me and Robbie.

But maybe it was uncomfortable.

You never know what's going to turn people off.

But you guys, you've stuck with me through thick and thin, and I appreciate it.

Now, I'm going to risk looking a little bit crazy surrounded by the groovers here outside Rough Trade.

Give you a hug.

Good to see you.

Until next time we're together.

I'm obviously not going to shout at the top of my voice out here because

I'm too weedy.

So take care.

And for what it's worth, I love you.

Bye.

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