EP.212 - KIRSTY YOUNG

I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin.

Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening.

I took my microphone and found some human folk.

Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke.

My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man.

I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan.

Hey,

how are you doing, podcasts?

Adam Buxton here, reporting to you from a Norfolk farm track

towards the beginning of November 2023.

Well, it's bonfire night, to be precise, as I record this.

A chilly Sunday evening.

The sun is going down.

Great sunset.

Absolutely terrific.

I'm giving it,

well, I mean, it's not less than eight stars.

Rosie is here with me.

She is sniffing away at a rabbit hole just now.

Oh, dog legs.

Imagine the flavours wafting out of that joint.

But she's well.

A bit cranky, but hey, she's 13, listeners.

So,

you know, fair enough, I think.

All right, let me tell you a bit about podcast number 212, which features a rambling conversation with Scottish journalist and broadcaster Kirstie Young.

Kirstie Facts, Kirstie Jackson Young, was born in 1968 in East Kilbride, Scotland.

In her early 20s, a stint as a continuity announcer in 1989 led to presenting work on Scottish television.

In the early 90s, she had her own chat show, Kirsty.

In 1996, Kirstie joined the news team of Channel 5 and when the channel launched the following year, she was made the lead anchor of their main news programme.

She became one of the channel's most talked about assets, thanks in part to her habit of beginning programmes leaning against, or if you prefer, perching against the front of her news desk, rather than sitting behind it.

Back then in the world of news, no one had seen anything like it.

Over the years, Kirstie also became known to viewers as a presenter of the BBC show Crime Crime Watch and as a frequent guest host of the topical panel show, Have I Got News for You?

It was 2006 when Kirstie landed the job that has played a large part in defining her career thus far, when she took over from Sue Lawley as the presenter of Radio 4's interview programme Desert Island Discs.

As I speak, the longest-running radio show format of all time.

Kirstie ended up presenting the show for 22 years, making her the second longest serving host behind Desert Island Disc's creator Roy Plumley.

He did 43 years before his death in 1985.

When Michael Parkinson took over, he only lasted two years.

In 2018, Lauren Laverne took over as the show's host when Kirstie was forced to take a step back from her career for a few years in order to get her health back on track.

She had been suffering from chronic pain caused by fibromyalgia.

In 2022, Kirstie, back to good health and presenting again, delivered an emotional closing monologue at the end of the BBC's TV coverage of Queen Elizabeth's funeral that was considered by many to be the highlight of the big British castle's coverage of the historic event.

More recently, Kirstie has been recording radio/slash podcast interviews once more for her new show Young Again, in which she takes guests back to meet their younger selves.

Not literally, that's currently not possible.

She's using talking and the imagination.

And she asks her guests if you knew then what you know now, what would you tell yourself?

You can hear Young Again via the BBC Sounds app, where you will find episodes with guests so far including actor Daniel Kaluya, writer Naomi Klein, super chef Jamie Oliver and comic legend Steve Coogan.

My conversation with Kirstie was recorded face-to-face in mid-October of this year 2023 and I was delighted to find that Kirstie is a regular listener to the podcast, a fact that helped calm my nerves in the face of a broadcasting behemoth who, despite being almost exactly the same age that I am, has more gravitas in her earlobes than I have in my whole body and gravitas shed.

It's true, I found myself surprisingly nervous upon meeting Kirsty.

Even though she was delightful and we had a really good talk, which included rambles on the danger of falling in love with the sound of your own voice.

Listeners, I would never do that.

We talked about why social media isn't all bad, even though it is.

We talked about whether you should trust the BBC.

Kirstie shed some behind-the-scenes moments from Desert Island discs.

We talked about our respective encounters with Tom Hanks, when and if it's okay for for broadcasters to get emotional, why the death of the queen nearly tipped Kirstie over the edge live on air.

This is getting a bit tabloid-y here.

And by the way, no, I didn't do my queen voice for that last bit.

We also talked about what got Kirstie through that bout of ill health.

And finally, as two former guests of the TV show Room 101, we talked about a few of the things that we put in there.

For Adam and Joe fans, there's also some unexpected Song Wars nostalgia.

But we began by chatting about how annoying it can be when podcasts have poor sound quality.

We did this while I was positioning microphones, arranging headphone cables, and generally making a lot of annoying sounds.

Back at the end for a bit more waffle, but right now, with Kirsty Young, here we go.

concentrate on that.

Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat.

Post on your conversation, hope to find your talking hat.

Can I just ask you to angle that up towards you?

How's that?

Is that better?

I always think your sound quality is very good.

I'm glad you say that.

Occasionally, people will get in touch and go, oh,

very disappointed in some of the compression on the last episode.

No, I think it's very good.

And I'm.

Yeah, because that really annoys me.

About some podcasts, I think that could be really good if only their sound quality was better.

You know, it's not in any way playing to the strengths of what the the whole thing is, which is the intimacy of it.

Yes.

I think you get that pretty good.

Good, I'm glad.

Well, these are right now, we're using little drum mics, I think, but I like them because they're so compact.

I like the sort of Susie Sue look of them, and they have these fluffy

windshield

mic covers.

That's right.

It's sort of Susie Sue or John Cooper Clark stuff.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hair.

I heard you saying that you used to do about two and a half days prep or something for Desert Island discs.

That's probably me showing off, wasn't it?

I think it depended who it was, really.

Because some people, if

you're doing a big movie star, then it would be, you know, kind of probably five or six weeks of just making sure you watched their big films that week and took notes and maybe read a biography or, you know, Dustin Hoffman, for example.

Because I felt like when I was interviewing him, it was a very big deal for me.

Yeah, because you were a fan.

Massive fan.

So that probably mounted up to all in hours, two and a half days.

I mean, most people, it it was about a day and a half, but they kind of, I don't know how you feel, they live in your head.

People live in your head.

That's how, when I was doing Desert Islandists, that's what it was like.

It was like having,

yeah, having a little lodger in my head.

And even if you sort of only sit down for maybe a day and a half, you're thinking about them as soon as you finish the last one.

That's what I was like.

I mean, that was probably insecurity on my part.

I probably could have done a lot less.

because obviously you don't use most of it.

Yes, you're right about people living in your head in the run-up to

a conversation.

Yeah, definitely, because I'll try and immerse myself as much as possible.

Yes, I can hear that.

And

read as many books as I can, if possible, audio books a lot of the time.

And did you find that are you quite good at retaining information anyway?

I am good.

And then it goes.

It goes.

So I retain it for as long as I need it.

and then it just leaves the building.

Yeah, you need to free up space on the hard drive.

I do.

It was certainly my hard drive.

So, yes, so for example, recently, something like the coronation or Her Late Majesty's funeral or things like that, you know,

it all goes in.

And then, you know, three weeks later, if you were to say, just tell me a bit about King Edward's Crown, I'd be like, What's that then?

So, you know, it leaves.

I mean, it's probably there somewhere.

All the song lyrics I've ever heard are still there.

None of the Russian I learned is there.

You know, I don't know why my brain does that, but I, yeah, got to get rid of it.

Give you some more

more songs.

Sorry, am I bobbling about?

No, not at all.

I just wanted, I'm just going to unplug it for a second.

Do you want us to go over that?

Yeah, listeners, I am.

Sure.

I'm reconfiguring Kirstie's headphones.

Impressive.

I'm giving her some more slack.

I like a lot of slack.

Yeah, you're the first person to say that you're up for wearing headphones while I've been speaking to them.

I don't actually offer it as an option a lot of the time.

Okay.

But yeah, I like the headphones.

Because then you can imagine what the final thing is going to sound like.

Yes.

And also you can get closer to the mic, I think, and be a bit more intimate.

Yes, but you have to guard against it.

I don't know if you get this when you listen to people, when people start to slightly fall in love with their own voice.

You can hear that sometimes, and that's icky, I think.

You know, when people are just beginning to be a little more intimate than they were.

Oh, don't do that.

You know, it's pretentious, isn't it?

It's wrong.

So, somewhere in between, there's a kind of fine line, I think.

It's like people whispering

on adverts.

I don't like whispering.

Any kind of broadcast whispering.

So, you know, the ASMR brigade.

Yeah.

They like all that stuff.

They do.

I know a lot of people.

I sort of wish I had that because I think it sounds quite.

Whisperiness.

No, the ASMR.

Quite erotic, doesn't it?

It sounds a bit erotic.

Sure.

That's part of it, isn't it?

It's a kind of erotic charge.

It's an erotic thrill you get from certain sounds and textures of sound.

No, I don't like whispering.

I know exactly what you mean about...

people who sound like they are falling in love with their own voices.

Yes.

And what about the kind of NPR school of journalistic delivery?

Do you ever find yourself becoming irritated with the kind of uh vocal fry or the forced intimacy that you sometimes have?

Do you know I probably haven't listened to enough NPR?

I used to find we used to spend a lot of time in LA because my husband was doing a lot of work over there, so I would spend like big chunks of time in the summer and Eastern things, and I could never really listen to their radio because it all just sounded like they were joking and there were too many ads.

So I never really properly listened to NPR.

That's not something, you know, This American Life and all of that, I've never really gotten into, which is, you know, there's time yet.

It is good stuff.

So, what would you listen to?

What would you recommend?

Well, if you search for a best of This American Life, like there are some amazing episodes

that tell stories brilliantly and they're unexpected and they're uplifting and they're well produced and researched.

And you know, it's kind of BBC level of

really nice production.

Okay, I'm going to do that.

Yeah, they're good.

And

I mean, personally, I like anything that John Ronson does.

So when John Ronson appears on This American Life, it's always quite good.

Did you listen to John's series,

Everything Fell Apart?

No, it's on my list.

It's so good.

Right.

And another one with a strange voice is David Sedaris.

David Sedaris.

I love that voice.

I mean, I think I've listened to every single one of his audiobooks and everything he's ever recorded for Radio 4.

I think he's sensational and sensationally funny and absolutely does that I don't give a shit thing, which I think is a very brilliant and brave thing to listen to and people really rarely do that now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But he also is aware of some of the criticism that there is of him floating around the internet for example.

I don't think he googles himself,

but I know that he reads the mail that he gets and the criticism that he gets.

Yeah, he talks about it sometimes.

Do you Google yourself?

Oh, god, no way.

And you used to be on social media, but yeah,

I have Googled myself in the past, but I learned fairly quickly that was counterproductive.

Yes.

And now it terrifies me.

Like, if I have to check something that I've done or look for a photo from something that I did or whatever, and I go on Google, it's so frightening.

I sort of do it really quickly, like only half looking out of one eye.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Do you get that?

Yes, I don't do it.

And I mean, I probably have done it if I've had to do it for work.

I've never been on social media, so I've never been on Twitter.

No.

And I went on Instagram because my kids said to me during lockdown, you should, mum.

And I set, you know, you can set a timer.

I set my timer at 30 minutes.

And then by about day nine, I hit 30 minutes on my timer.

And I thought, well, that's not right.

You know, you could be reading a book or actually talking to your children rather than looking at people you don't know.

So I'm not on it.

So wait, in nine days, you only watch 30 minutes of.

No, no, no, like it's a daily limit.

Like you can set a daily limit on Instagram.

I guess it's one of those things they say when they're up in front of a select committee or a sort of judicial hearing.

They say, well, of course we have those limit setters.

So I set my limit setter.

And I found, and it was during Lopson.

You're the only person in the world who has ever used the limit setter.

I do think I am.

Probably.

Probably.

Yeah.

And so I thought, no, that's not right.

And also, I was just like literally posting pictures of my tomatoes to my seven friends.

Look what I've grown.

I thought, it's not posting, it's boasting.

Time to stop that.

Yeah, it's not good.

It's not good, is it?

It's not a good thing.

I agree with you, but I mean, do you think that's our generation?

You and I are a similar age.

I'm definitely generational.

But I think there are lots of people our age.

I certainly think there are loads of women my age on Instagram and kind of who've really fallen in love with it.

And that's fine.

If it's for them, that's absolutely fine.

It's just not for me.

I don't, it makes me.

That's what you have to say about social media.

Lots of people get a lot of great things out of it.

Well, I said it.

And, you know, go for your life.

And I'm sure that's what you believe, Kirsty.

No, I think it's quite obnoxious of you.

You go for your life.

Hey, if you want to totally ruin your mental health, then that can be very positive for some people.

For some people, that's what they need, Adam.

And if they need it, they should do it.

No, I know.

That's right.

Okay, I should stop saying things like that.

But that's the worst thing.

Because, of course, of course,

do you know one of the reasons I say that is a lot of people use it for their business?

Yeah, yeah.

So if you're somewhere in Herefordshire and you don't have an advertising budget and you are throwing pots, you can get on Instagram and maybe you'll, you know, maybe you'll get traded.

So I completely understand why people do it.

I suppose.

So that's why I had that sort of caveat.

Of course, and it is true.

Of course, there are good things about it.

But the problem with it so often tends to be that you just tip over into misusing it, using it too much.

Yeah.

And also the idea of people kind of just, you know, stepping on a yacht and saying, hashtag blast.

Just, whoa, whoa,

you know, that's not fair.

We shouldn't be looking at that.

We shouldn't be encouraging them.

No, but I mean, people who do that, they get cancelled fairly quickly, don't they?

Good, I hope so.

Do you genuinely...

You have children, right?

We have four.

Yes.

And how old are your kids now?

So the youngest is 17 and the oldest is 30.

And I should make it clear, when I met my husband, he already had two.

Yeah.

I was going to say that he'd given birth to, but you know what I mean.

Sure.

But they are very much a four, and he was looking after them full-time when I met him.

So, you know, I gave birth to two of them, but we have four children.

Yeah.

How's the 17-year-old with social media?

Well, that's really interesting, isn't it?

I think probably like most parents, I don't want to keep talking about lockdown, but I think the thing was at the point which she was really starting to make friends in school and sort of bed down in school, suddenly there, as it was of course, for everyone, was taken away.

So it was a way for her to very much keep in touch and feel like she had friends around during lockdown, and I didn't really police it very much at all, actually, during lockdown, because I felt like it was a good way for her to be in contact.

So, I guess to roll back from that is more difficult.

It's not actually that you can block everything out and be this kind of puritanical old cow, it is to let it in because it's there and they're going to encounter it and explain it.

And so, that's sort of what I've tried to do with our youngest and social media: and also she has she has had, I mean, she's 17 now, so she can do it herself, but when she was younger, it was her big brother and big sisters who were her friends on there, and they would say to me, I think somebody's chatting to her who I'm not, I'm not sure, she even knows them.

And so that was a really useful thing that she was the last one.

I think if she'd been my first one to come along and I didn't have those, because they don't want you following them on social media, that's just, you know, that's not in any sense acceptable.

But I could have the big sisters and the big brother do it and sort of police it.

So that's worked out, okay.

She's got her head screwed on.

I think it's fine.

You know, I have all sorts of rules at home where I say, remember, your mum's so awful that we're not allowed phones at the table.

And I don't even need to say that anymore, but I would say that when she was 12.

So we have rituals in our house where we're not having phones around.

Yeah.

That's what I try to do.

It's totally imperfect, probably not ideal.

Well, it's better than nothing, isn't it?

Yeah.

And I think it's a great idea to be able, obviously it's not practical to be with them whenever they're engaging with media of various kinds.

But yeah, good idea to at least have moments where they're thinking critically about it.

Hopefully if you bring your kids up with a sense that that they should have not a cynical but a sceptical eye about things, that they should wonder about things, and you do that whether it's the films that you encourage them to watch with you or the books you recommend them or whatever.

So they're not going to suddenly not apply that when it comes to social media.

And I think it is imperfect, and I think I'm sort of

working it out as I go, and I'm probably not getting it right.

But I try to be light-handed rather than heavy-handed.

I think, though, that they

are times when you don't apply those things, though.

I think you forget.

I think you watch things online and you think this is the truth, this is reality.

I'm not sort of going down a kind of post-truth conversational rabbit hole.

I understand.

But you do feel like, well, yeah, this person is telling me this, and so why wouldn't I believe them?

But the context is skewed, the way that it's framed is weird.

Well, I talk to my daughters about that, especially our youngest now, not my 22-year-old, I don't need to, but I say, you know, look at your sources for things.

And there's a reason that people trust the BBC News site, and it's because it's verified by three sources and it's because they're the biggest news organization in the world and it's because you know I've had all those sort of I'm sure nauseatingly boring conversations.

Now they're interesting conversations.

Have you ever had a conversation with someone who is strongly anti-BBC, who feels that the BBC is awash with bias?

Was it a productive conversation?

No, because, well,

I was going to say the worst one, I think my most intense experience of that was probably, would that be about five years ago, when a young person who I was sitting next to at dinner, I think they must have been about 19, just sort of said as though it was a fact.

Well, I mean, everything on the BBC is lies.

You can't trust a thing that they say.

And I was sort of almost physically winded by that.

Not because, I mean, the BBC is definitely an imperfect organisation.

Sure.

And they have problems, of course they do.

But it was shocking to me that a young woman would...

would have that view and I had to ask like my kids about it.

I said, where's that coming from?

And I was completely behind the curve on that.

So yes, I have.

And I get it.

You know, the BBC's doing its best, isn't it?

In very difficult circumstances.

I happen to think it does a pretty good job and I happen to believe in the integrity of the people, especially who work in the news arm.

I think they do extraordinary things and thank God for them.

And I would sort of defend the licence fee to my dying breath.

But, you know, it's imperfect, obviously.

Yeah.

I think a lot of their problems come from tying themselves up in knots trying to do the right thing.

I think so.

I think that's very difficult.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's very difficult.

And coming off, people sort of assume that there must be some sort of agenda at the core of the corporation.

And so they think, oh, all this posturing about balance and

all this stuff is just bullshit.

And actually, they're just serving a government agenda.

Or, you know, people assume that at the moment, as we speak,

it is the 18th of October 2023,

last week.

I mean, you know, the coverage of the Israel situation is ongoing, and they are

tying themselves up in knots about all sorts of things.

Daily, it seems that they're recalibrating their position on whether they're allowed to call Hamas a terrorist organization or not.

Yeah.

And I think one of the big problems, of course, comes from, you know, people think, well, you know,

it's easy for people to label the BBC, especially when it comes to their news coverage, you know, this is an arm of the state, because it's publicly funded.

But of course, public funding is different from government funding.

And I think much like many other things, you know, the NHS I suppose would be the other great example.

You know, the idea that the BBC is constantly co-opted as a political football and it's a way of signalling, you know, it's a kind of dog whistle way of saying, we'll call them in here and we'll tear them off a strip.

And, you know, that's really important the BBC doesn't become that.

And it's not necessarily the BBC that is talking about the use of the word terrorism.

They're answering criticism from the outside.

And I guess as long as, especially when it comes to something something in the Middle East, if you're getting roughly the same amount of complaints from both sides, which they are, then

you kind of know you're doing an okay job.

And I think this whole, you know, reporting that it is a prescribed terror organisation with reference to Hamas, then that is a...

you know, that is a legitimate stance if you want to continue to have access and to report what is happening in those places.

Because what you don't want to do is get thrown out of places because you're not allowed to report anymore.

You want to have access.

You know, the whole point of the BBC in news terms is to show people the evidence as fairly as they possibly can.

You know, and you look at somebody like Jeremy Bowen, I mean,

I don't think there's a single person that I've ever heard speak about or write about the Middle East that explains it as concisely and in

terms that I can understand and as fairly as he does.

If you want those people to have access, you have to be very mindful

with your language.

I think it's understandable they're doing that.

I think it's a very, very difficult job to get right.

Yeah, absolutely.

Did you ever.

I'm whispering now, and you hate whispering.

No, you're not whispering.

Because of that sentence.

That's your natural delivery, isn't it?

Yeah, it's quite quiet, but I should punch it up.

It's husky.

Yes, I'm a bit husky.

Do you get self-conscious when people talk about your voice?

Because it's a subject that comes up quite a lot.

Well, I'll tell you what, I've never in, I don't know how long I've been staying in hotels for, but quite a long time.

I used to travel a lot for work.

If I order room service, and this has never not happened to me, they say,

then I'll be with you in about 30 minutes, sir.

That's never not happened to me.

So my voice is, you know, I don't know.

Does it sound slightly not one thing or the other?

I don't know.

It's the voice I've got.

So no, and if people want to talk about my voice, that's nice as long as they're not saying horrible things, in which case I'll pretend I can't hear it.

No, it's good, it's fine.

Thank you.

Good, that's fine.

I'll stick with it.

It's so good.

It's the only one I've got.

Actually, there was a lady who said to me, When I first came down to London, it was my first sort of network job, and I was talking to her about this newsroom.

It was at Five News Channel 5, and we were all very excited.

You know, we were like little news puppies, and we were all very excited.

So, I was probably boringly evangelical.

And I've been talking to this woman, she was a film producer, for about 20 minutes.

Half an hour, we were having a good, interesting conversation.

She was telling me about her work, I was telling her about mine, she was a bit older than me, and then we finished our conversation, and she said, Are you going to do it in that voice?

I think she meant accent.

I think she meant accent, yes.

But that's probably the rudest anyone's ever been.

I was like,

that's quite a mad thing to say.

Yeah, yeah, I am.

Yes, I am am going to do it in this place.

I'm going to do it like this.

It's a new way of doing the news.

Have you seen the news?

Welcome to the news.

It's all kicking off out there.

I'm cursed the young boy.

I'd watch it.

And I know you have also talked about this a lot, but the thing that people often remember about your channel five days was leaning against the desk.

Does anyone remember it?

I think it would be because it was a big deal.

People like my dad, I think that would have been a big deal for people like my dad because it just seemed emblematic of horrifying the breakdown breakdown of society.

Yeah, I was like, this is too informal.

The news should be formal.

You can't lean against the desk.

And what was the I was perching?

I was perching.

Yeah, I was perching on the desk.

I know, I mean, what was all that about?

Because in the Kirstie Young biopic, that's going to be a big scene.

As you guys talking about,

you sort of suddenly, one day, you're just leaning against a desk in a meeting and you go, hang on a second.

I think this might be an incredible new way of delivering the news.

No, it's never going to work.

It's too informal, Kirsty.

Get out!

If I ever see you leaning against a desk, you're out of here.

The next day you're like, you know what?

Fuck you.

I'm going to lean against...

She's leaning against the...

Tell her not to lean against the desk.

Or is it like...

It wasn't my idea.

Although, actually, Alastair Campbell, when he came in with Tony Blair, our first guest on our first programme.

in 1997 was obviously we launched sort of during an election campaign which is great because it's fizzy and there's a lot going on and it was when there there was the whole new Labour push.

And

so my first guest and interviewee was Tony Blair, and Alistair Campbell came in with them.

And there was a whole kind of,

oh, well,

he's not.

Where are the chairs?

So yeah, you know, that was a thing that people were.

And of course, Tony, being Tony, was fine.

I'm talking about it like I know him, but he was fine with it.

Who was your.

Well, this is a.

I wanted to ask you about some of your most memorable encounters,

both as a news journalist and as an interviewer on Desert Island Discs.

Let's ask about the most uncomfortable ones first, and then you can.

Okay.

Well, those would be during Desert Island Discs years.

They would be.

And also, did you know, would you know immediately that it was going to be uncomfortable when the person came into the studio?

Well, things can change, as you will know.

You know, you can.

John McEnroe, when he came in, had been held for an hour and a half at immigration and was not,

he wasn't happy with the world.

And he sat as we were sort of sitting, getting ready to line up, and just sat on his phone, didn't look at me, just looked down.

And I would sort of try to engage him.

He's like, yeah, oh, that's fine, whatever.

And I was thinking, oh, this is good.

So I thought, I'm going to make it the interview because it's John McEnroe, and I really love John McEnroe and he's here.

We got him into the studio.

So I thought, that's what I'm going to do.

And the red light went on.

And sunshine came into his face and his eyes.

And he was Mr.

Nice.

Now, I don't know which one's the real one,

but I got both of them.

And that was very, very confusing because I I thought this is going to be an absolute shit show.

And is he going to sit on his phone through the whole interview?

I don't know.

He was in such a bad mood.

I mean, he was boiling.

He was boiling with anger and misery when he came in.

So I thought that was going to be awful, but it wasn't.

He was great.

He totally delivered.

He was fascinating.

And obviously, he's had an incredible life, and he's a very smart guy, and he has a very intense experience.

He was great.

So that one changed really quickly, and I didn't see the weather coming in.

And did he switch off again when you were off air?

Or was he switching?

He wasn't as bad.

Right.

But, you know,

there weren't niceties.

No,

he'd done his bit, and then he's going to be, but that's okay.

I mean,

I do think part of the

one of the most interesting bits about an interview is where that person is on that day.

You know, that also depends hugely on what you get out of them.

Barry Manilow kept his huge puffer jacket on, we were inside, his huge puffer jacket on, and his dark glasses on through the whole thing and sort of was looking off.

Even if he had been looking at me in the eye, it wouldn't have been else know, because his glasses were really very dark and that wasn't you know it was chilly it wasn't a great exchange and I don't think I definitely didn't get the best out of it yeah yeah did you ever used to beat yourself up after interviews did you feel like would you get depressed about it for a couple of days or whatever or just move on no I would move on I mean I didn't get depressed about it I would I could be down in the dumps if I thought that something hadn't gone as well as it could have done for sure.

Yeah, that happens.

But you can't, it is essentially

quite disposable, isn't it?

It's not, you're not writing the history books, you know, you're interviewing somebody and I think you've got to be realistic about the confines of that.

And you can only, you know, my approach is obviously because it's not something like,

you know, the Today programme or whatever, you're not trying to nail people to the wall, you know, you're trying to bring out the best in them.

And Desert Island was essentially sort of celebration of somebody if they were there pretty much.

The new podcast that I'm doing now is even more conversational and I'm more with its sort of shoes off.

So I think that's not the space I'm in of thinking I didn't get that question.

You know, sometimes I would brace myself if I was asking a very personal question, in fact, always I would brace myself when I'm being very, asking a very personal question, because I'm always ready for people to say, well, fuck off, it's none of your business.

Because it's, why is it?

Why is it my business, actually?

You know, so it's got, it's a very consensual thing, isn't it?

An interview.

I suppose you can tell yourself that if they've agreed to do the interview,

then they should sort of expect to be asked anything.

Yeah, and I never agree questions with people before.

I mean, I know lots of, especially, well, you can see it, television shows do, and that those are entertainment vehicles, and people are there to promote the thing.

But yeah,

I think you've got to be able to ask somebody anything you want, and they, of course, have the right to say, well, that's none of your business, so I'm not comfortable talking about that.

And I certainly come from the position that you have to respect that.

And without mentioning any names, unless you want to, were there times when you had to interview people you actively disliked and you felt that it wasn't appropriate to express that dislike?

Yes.

Right.

Yeah, and I'm not going to name names, but yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously, we've all got our personal prejudices, haven't we?

Or we think kind of like, really?

In the olden days of Desert Island discs, well, they had one of the Mitford sisters on once, didn't they?

Yeah, they did.

That was Sue Lawley who did that.

Right.

Yeah.

And she pushed, I mean, she pushed back on her marriage to Oswald Mosley.

Yeah, and also her Holocaust number denials.

That was the very, you know, the most extraordinary bit where, yeah, yeah, she was saying, well, I don't think it was as many as that, was it?

And Sue, being the extremely adept journalist she was, just left a beat

and said, Let's hear your next piece of music.

You know, because this is not the place to drill down into your rabid anti-Semitism,

which appeared to be on display.

So, yeah.

And also, the thing about Desert Island This is it's a beautiful kind of record of our times.

You know, I think it would be entirely unlikely that somebody of her ilk would be invited on these days.

You know, things change.

Yes, exactly.

Things change.

I wonder if that was a controversial booking at the time, I think.

I think it was, I think it was.

Things change and also I mean the conversation about platforming or deplatforming is obviously ongoing and the jury's out as far as um

whether it was a good idea, for example, to get Nick Griffin on question time back in uh when was it, like two thousand six or something?

You see, I think those things

are good.

I think fresh air is really good.

I I'm I'm really not somebody who thinks, well, you know, you can't give these people legitimacy by giving them apartment.

No, let's hear their stupid ideas, let them be questioned, let rigour surround them, and then they fall apart.

You know, I come down much further along the kind of

spectrum of free speech and well, I call it kind of fresh air.

I think you've got to let the light in on things.

I think, you know, you close it down and then they somehow become more fascinating.

I think actually, when you see how flimsy some people's ideas are and what they're built on, you know, they kind of crumble in front of your eyes.

So I'm very much of the opinion that mostly,

yeah, really, mostly, it's very good to expose people to the rigour of good journalism and open questioning.

A platform can also be a gallows.

Thank you for that.

Yes.

Do they say that?

That's an expression I've heard.

Okay.

2009, he was on Question Time.

British National Party leader, was he then?

I think so.

And if you watch the sort of extraordinary

Mr.

Dimbleby in charge of dismantling him, you know, that's something we can all enjoy, I think.

Yeah, yeah.

For the new series for Young Again,

that's all face-to-face, or is it Zoom sometimes?

I've actually just done one by Zoom, which was with Naomi Klein.

I'd never, ever done that before, and I would never have imagined that I'd be in a position where I'd say, yeah, let's give that a go.

But I think people are now so

conversant in that way of talking, and it's okay.

I mean, she lives very remotely on an island in British Columbia.

You know, she doesn't travel very much.

She's an environmental campaigner, as well as a feminist campaigner, keeps her carbon footprint down, all those.

So I thought it was fine, but I don't think there's any substitute for sitting opposite somebody.

And also, you get the little visual clues, you know, you can say, oh, that's the sort of shoes they wear.

And when somebody's there opposite you, there are so many visual clues.

I mean, Daniel Kaluya I did recently, and you know, that guy is sharp.

You know, he's in a room and he's like got edges, you know, he's like immaculately groomed, and you wouldn't so much get a sense of that.

He really smells good.

He smells really good.

And that might be creepy creepy for me to say that.

It's creepy for both of us to say it.

But you know, he's a presence and you get that in a room when you're with somebody.

You get that.

And that's all part of the exchange, or it should be if you are making a good job of it.

Yeah, I think it's much harder to be conversational on Zoom.

You ask your question, you have to pause because of the time lag.

You don't want to kind of talk over each other in that way that's nice to do sometimes.

Absolutely.

Yeah, and also you can sort of like you and I just now you know you could raise your eyebrows or catch my if you wanted to interject and I would leave space for you.

All that human interaction yeah definitely suffers.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Well I was talking to Tom Hanks and

I was badly traumatized by my encounter with Tom Hanks.

Why?

Well I'm joking, I'm joking, but I've been teased about it because I suppose it was a high profile episode.

One of the more well-known people that I've ever talked to.

So I think an unusual amount of people heard it and half of them liked it and they were like, whoa, Tom Hanks, respect and then half of them like no that didn't work because it was a zoom thing he wasn't really making eye contact and not not even trying to like if I'm on zoom sometimes I will make an effort to look at the green light where the camera is yeah even though it feels artificial because you want to look at the image of the person on the zoom display yeah but if you do that then you're not looking at the camera so every now and again I'll look up to the green light and make eye contact with the person to sort of go look at me,

I'm talking to you.

But I appreciate that's quite a weird and unnatural thing to do, so most people don't do it.

But he certainly didn't try to do it, and I think he felt like

it was another junket for him probably that day.

Well, I thought it was really interesting, and I really, I mean, I knew, I imagined, obviously, when I was listening to it, that you couldn't talk to him about his movies because of the strike.

So you were talking to him about his book, right?

So you mostly were talking about his movie.

I mean, I could have asked him about his movies.

I I just thought, like, I'm going to impress him by not asking about them.

Yeah, I know,

but do you know what?

It was a really interesting interview because I'd never heard him talk about those things before.

And I did him on Desert Island Discs, and he was one of my absolute favourites.

And I don't sort of uniformly love all his movies.

I mean, I really obviously like the Tom Hankery of him.

You know, he seems like an incredibly fabulous guy in something like Captain Phillips, one of my favourite films, and I think he's done extraordinary work.

But what was the Forrest Gump?

Didn't didn't like it I'm one of maybe three people in the world who didn't like Forsgump so I wasn't like I'm one of the other two are you yeah yeah okay well there we go so when I was interviewing him yeah he was one of my absolute favourites because I thought the really fascinating thing about him and it obviously it was face-to-face

and I think it must be why he is an incredible actor he was totally in the moment he came in and he said okay you got me and it was like when he was there he was there and nothing else was happening.

He was totally committed to the process of of that interview.

And so, and he absolutely was one of my complete favourites.

To my surprise, I wouldn't really have anticipated that.

So, I'm sorry he was on Time for you.

Because if he'd been in the room, you would have really enjoyed it.

I think it would have gone differently.

It would have gone differently.

Listen, this is not to suggest that he was anything but

charming and polite and accommodating, which he definitely was.

But I just felt like, you know, I'd heard conversations like the one you had with him, where he, as you say, is so present and engaged

and it's very disarming.

So did you really want him to like you?

Was that

that?

No, it's not like I wanted him to like me.

I just thought we would get on.

You did.

I did think like, we've got a lot in common, Tom.

We like a lot of the same things.

Plus, I think you're great in Castaway.

And I'm looking at all your Oscars up here, Adam, as we speak.

Sure, we've won a lot of Oscars.

We both hang out with Steven Spielberg.

We've got a lot to talk about.

I genuinely did think that we had stuff in common about World War II, which I know he's fascinated by and has also been a big part of his filmography.

Because my dad fought in World War II.

My dad watched Band of Brothers, I remember, and said, wow, that's very much like I remember it.

And my dad did not fight in Bastogne, but he passed through.

a few days after the battle that was in that Band of Brothers episode.

And he said, that's what it looked like, and the tree trunks split by shells hitting.

And he said, The whole atmosphere that they conjure up in that series is very much what I remember, and things like that.

So I thought that we would bond on things like that.

But then I asked him about World War II, and he didn't really seem to give that much of a shit about it.

I mean, he did.

He was like, yeah, I've read a couple of books.

I think the falling down, I remember with Victoria Wood, who was one of my absolute comedy heroes.

I mean, I'd seen her do stand-up just and watched most of everything she'd ever done.

And, you know, when you get your sort of rota of who you're interviewing, you know, the people who are booking don't necessarily know that people, and they're like, yeah, Victoria Wood's on week for it.

And I did really feel like, I think we could be friends

with Victoria, because we've definitely got the same sense of humour.

And

that's a bad thing to do.

It's bad to try to make friends with the person when you're interviewing.

Has it ever happened, though?

Have you become friendly with someone that you had met through an interview?

I'm pretty scrupulous about not,

you know, I think the power balance is

unequal there.

So I'm always careful about crossing that line of, oh, we should go for lunch.

But Zaha Hadid, the incredible architect, we actually were going to go for lunch each and she passed away between the recording of her Desert Island discs and I think

Wow, she really didn't want to go for lunch.

She really didn't want to go for lunch.

I sort of think I probably could have been her friend.

I don't know what it is.

It's strange that I would say that, because, you know, I know virtually nothing about architecture.

But there was just, there was something, I don't know what it was.

And she was the one who said to me, can I take you for lunch?

And so, yeah.

But not, have I become probably friendlier.

And there are people who you interview who you know, and that's quite difficult.

I did recently, Jamie Oliver.

Oh, yes, yes, I really enjoyed that.

Thank you.

Well, he's a friend of my husband's.

You know, they work in, my husband works in, well, he he calls it catering, old school, hospitality.

That's good, because it didn't really come across as Tupally.

Good, because

he's my husband's friend.

He's not my, I mean, you know, I haven't been to his house, but I've seen him plenty over the years, and I know what goes on in his life, because my husband's his friend.

I started off by asking you there about some of your more uncomfortable encounters.

What were some of the ones over the years, whether it's Desert Island Discs or wherever,

that have been most uplifting that you came away from just thinking, wow, that was amazing.

Loads of them all the time, yeah.

Thick and fast, there were loads of them.

I mean, let me think.

Um,

I mean, we were talking about Tom Hanks, that was what, I mean, he,

you know, he started, he got emotional, he started crying, and he was talking about his 11-year-old self, I think it was, in his bedroom, listening to film, a film score, and he was right, but the music took him right back.

That's the amazing thing about the brilliance that is Desert Islandists, of course, is the music sort of

is it hot wires people to their experience.

You sit there and listen to it with them.

Yeah.

Well,

I did.

Yeah, I don't think they did when it first began.

And I don't know if it was Michael Parkinson who introduced that, because he's a great lover of music.

And also in the beginning, when Desert Islands started, it was scripted.

Right.

I've seen the original scripts, which are in the BBC archive, and you know, it was meant to be, I think, six shows or eight shows originally.

And it was Roy Plumley, who was a producer and occasional presenter.

It was his format famously.

And in front of his two-bar fire in his sort of basement flat, he said, I've had an idea.

And when you look at the scripts, it are brilliant because it was sort of showgirls and charming people, because it was during the war, it was launched for the troops during the war.

And it was so, tell me about this wonderful show that you're doing.

And she said, well, it's wonderful, Roy, you know, and it was all sort of written there, the kind of exchange between them.

Right, the scripted exchange.

That's what it was when it first began.

Yeah, so I don't think they played the music then.

It was really like a little, I wouldn't say play for today, that would be overstating it because they were trying to approximate a conversation.

And then, as the years went on and it became commissioned, then they stopped using the scripts.

And do you ever get emotional when you're doing the show?

Have you ever...

Yes, I did once.

We had to stop a recording.

I was recording with

a concentration camp survivor called Ben Helfcott, who was very elderly.

I spoke to him when he was in his late 80s.

And both his mother and his sister had been shot.

And

yeah, we had to stop the recording and not for him, for me.

That's the only time, the only time I was totally

I wouldn't say I was totally overwhelmed, but I was definitely definitely overwhelmed by sitting opposite somebody and them telling me.

And he was somebody who, I mean, he then went on to have just the most extraordinary life in London.

He loved Britain.

He took part in the first Olympic Games after the war.

When he was rescued from the concentration camp, he weighed like, I mean something extraordinary, like four and a half stones.

He won, I think it was a silver medal in weightlifting in the first Olympic Games after the war.

And his,

it makes me emotional thinking, but he was a very extraordinary man.

And his luxury was a set of weights, because he still, when I interviewed him, he was in his late 80s, but he still did his weights every day.

And he went on to have a family, and I've met members of his family who were lovely.

I met them subsequently.

Yeah, so we had to stop for that, because that was very extraordinary to sit opposite somebody and to sort of to touch history, to touch such a disturbing part of history and to have somebody really

tell it like it was, that was extraordinary.

How was he when he saw you getting upset?

Did he just sort of let you get on with it?

It was fine.

He was very he just sat there and he he um he didn't roll his eyes.

He didn't roll his eyes he didn't say, Come on.

No, he just sat there and he he had explained he had spent the years since talking to school children and going to schools and I'm sure he'd had all sorts of reactions.

And I think it was probably uh

I think it was probably quite uh inappropriate and unprofessional of that to happen.

And it's not the only time that's ever happened.

But I just

obviously one of the things that people have admired you for in recent years was your coverage of the Queen's funeral and an emotional

sign-off there.

And I was thinking,

did you feel that that was one of the situations in which it might have been a bit more appropriate to show some emotion?

I thought it was, and I thought that I definitely didn't want to cry on screen, I didn't want to do that, but I think it was...

It was such a unique set of circumstances.

I've never gone back and watched it.

I don't think that would be a good idea.

I think it existed in the minutes that it happened, and it existed at the end of what was a very extraordinary national moment.

And I was trying to be

trying to do the thing, which was my job to do, which was to end the coverage, but also be authentic to the moment.

That's a very hackneyed word these days, I know, know, but that's what I was trying to do.

I was trying to, that was what it felt like for me.

It felt kind of important and sad and it felt like a national moment and I was fortunate enough to be trusted with my little bit of that and I felt that I had to be totally straightforward and authentic about it.

It was emotional, even for people who weren't really invested in the royal family.

Just the fact that it was a full stop and as you say,

the end of something, a reminder of mortality in one way or another.

Yeah, I thought the most moving bit actually was when the crown jewels were taken off her coffin at St.

George's Chapel and then it was just a very old lady being buried by her family.

That's what it was.

That was it and I thought that was very moving and you know kind of connects us all, doesn't it?

It's not, you know, as I say, I understand.

I think it was about her.

I don't think it was about the royal family.

I think it was about this woman who had seen

everything she'd seen and been through it and was of very much of her generation and very much of her class, but sort of represented an awful lot in terms of the continuity.

It felt like a significant thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you could never say about her, Madge, that she was phoning it in.

She was definitely like...

She was not phoning it in.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, she was a short.

I only met her once, but she was not phoning it in.

No, I don't think so.

I think she was totally.

She, though, was someone who struggled with the extent to which it was appropriate to be emotional in certain situations or to show emotion publicly.

Obviously, after Diana died, and she got a lot of stick for being too cold.

But now sometimes it feels like the pendulum has swung too far the other way and public displays of emotion are sort of expected now to a degree that certainly my dad would have found maddening and annoying.

Is that what your folks are like?

Are they keeping a lid on things?

Well,

my mum is extremely sort of warm and loving but not

I mean you know she said to me last year that whole kind of I love you and she said why are people doing that?

Why are they doing that?

And you know what?

I get why she would think that.

You know me and my kids do it but I get that.

That's not her generation.

My parents are in their 80s and my dad actually is becoming much more emotionally available and open as he gets older and that was not

I mean I always knew my dad loved me and I felt very cared for by him but he was not a demonstrative person.

You know, Scottish people, it's not in the culture, you know, it's not the culture, it's a very, there's a good word for it, you know, that is that sort of thrawn culture of you keep things back and it's thrawn.

Thrawn.

Aye, he's thrawn.

He's very thrawn.

Game of Thrawn.

Well, we're all playing a game of thrawns up there.

Yeah, so it's not quite that demonstrative.

I mean, I find it very odd when I came to live in London in my mid to late 20s that people were kissing me.

I don't know you.

Don't kiss me.

You know, and even now I will sort of put out my hand to shake somebody's hand.

Yeah.

You know, that's.

You're not going for the hug.

No, not if I don't know somebody.

I mean, if I know people, I'll hug them.

But if I don't know somebody, I'm not hugging them.

No.

That would be perverted.

Have you ever had, like in France or somewhere, someone just move in for the kiss on the lips?

Man or woman?

Or when people hear me then for a kiss on the lips.

I don't need to go to France for that.

Yeah, I've had...

Yeah, yeah, I've had people move in for a kiss on the lips.

I mean, distasteful.

But just to be clear, I do hug and kiss my friends.

I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But no, if I don't know somebody, I find that weird and not right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I still don't know what's going on as far as greetings go.

I'm still.

Oh, no, I think, especially as a man, as a male, you know, it's really got to be the handshake, hasn't it?

Unless you really know somebody.

It's all hugs, mate.

Is it?

Yeah, hugs across the board.

Well, you do a hug at the end of your podcast, which I always rather enjoy.

Okay, good.

I'm sure some people find it a little bit bit creepy.

No it's funny.

How do you do it?

I just have the dictaphone in my hand.

But are you like hugging yours because you make a hug sound?

Yeah I just hug myself.

It's funny.

Before I scream I love you bye

at the top of my lungs.

But now not so much for Rosie because she doesn't like it.

Is that right?

She's all right with the end.

She doesn't like it at the beginning when I go hey how are you doing podcasts and she just freezes.

and looks at me and she's getting more reluctant about going out on walks.

Do you have pets?

I heard that.

We have, well, we have two dogs and then we have another dog.

Okay.

What a new dog.

We're sitting

with no permanent end date in sight, our daughter and son's dog.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah, which is a delightful dog.

But I will tell you this, three dogs is too many dogs.

Too many dogs.

Two dogs is fine.

Ay and I love dogs.

But three dogs is a lot of dogs.

Yeah.

Are they big?

One of them is medium big and the other two are small.

Okay.

They're delightful.

Are they well trained?

Or are they crapping in the house?

No, they're not crapping in the house.

Rosie craps in the house.

Okay, I mean, sometimes one of them might crap in the house, but I don't like to judge them.

They're only dogs.

No, that's true, isn't it?

I don't like judging Rosie.

I don't like getting angry with Rosie.

No, I can't really get angry with my dogs.

But you know...

I do think Rosie's intelligent, and I want to treat Rosie with respect and not patronise her.

She's a clever dog.

Yeah.

And she, I know, is making a point when she takes a giant shit in the spare room.

Oh, you need to listen.

I know, but I do listen, and she just doesn't say anything.

She just stares at me with her dog eyes.

She refuses to speak.

You've done something wrong.

I know we have.

I worry about it.

Do you worry about

what you've done or not done with your children?

I worry about everything.

As a parent.

I worry about everything.

Are you a worrier?

I'm a worrier.

Are you?

Good one.

Yeah.

I'm a worrier too, but I'm a performative worrier.

You're someone who I wouldn't think of as a warrior.

What kind of things do you worry about?

Of course, everything.

Right.

Yes, I worry about everything.

I worry about, did that child get on that train on time?

Actually, when I roasted that chicken, it was better luck.

What did I do differently that wasn't going to be that?

Are the dogs all right?

Do the dogs need their injections?

Are my mum and dad all right?

Is my sister all right?

How's my brother?

Is the fridge full?

Oh god, I forgot to go to the dry cleaner.

I worry if there won't be open.

Yeah, anything.

Anything.

These are practical worries, though.

I think you're...

So you're worrying about...

Oh, no, I worry about death, obviously, on a daily basis.

So, yeah, you do the existential.

It's on my list.

It's on my list.

Death's on my list.

But I've started.

I now do things to combat that.

So I do

meditation.

I listen to daily, I listen to the

extraordinarily insightful meanderings of Eckhart Tolle.

A little bit of that every day.

That helps.

Yeah, I mean, the sort of swingeing proximity of death is a lot of fun.

Where do you start with Eckhart?

Well, he talks about this actually in one of his kind of lectures, conversation things.

I bought one of his books about 15 years ago, opened it, read two pages and thought, well, that's a lot of old crap.

And then 10 years later, I opened up and thought, not so much.

So I think it's got to meet you at the time you're ready for it.

So I listened to, there are over 150 of his conversations and lectures available wherever you get your podcast.

So I listen to it on there, and sometimes I listen for half an hour, sometimes I listen for an hour, sometimes I listen for 10 minutes.

And, And, you know, the guy talks a lot of sense.

I think.

Did your awareness of the, what did you call it, the swinging proximity of death?

Yeah, that's what my brand's going to be called.

Did that intensify after your bout of ill health or during?

No.

No, it didn't.

It didn't because what I had was never going to kill me.

It was only going to make me bloody miserable.

Right.

Yeah, so

or not had, have.

So, no, it didn't.

No, that's probably something that's been a kind of the last ten years, I would say.

That was just an age thing, probably, from my mid-40s onwards.

It does tend to happen.

But how are you now, health-wise?

So when you talk about something you have, are you talking about fibromyalgia?

Yeah, so I've got rheumatoid arthritis and fibromyalgia.

So those are, they don't come together.

I just happen to have them at the same time.

Bonus ball.

Bonus ball.

I've got the bonus ball.

I'm doing okay.

Yes.

I mean, there are things that I'm sort of mildly self-conscious talking about my health for two reasons.

One is people suffer with obviously things that they manage that are so much more serious and you know, potentially, or maybe not even potentially, are going to take them down and out.

And those two things are just chronic long-term conditions.

But then I think it was my husband who said to me, Well, it's good to talk about it because lots of people have got it.

And if people don't talk about it, and people don't know about it, and especially fibromyalgia has until sort of very recently been a kind of discounted condition

by a lot of people.

Because people didn't understand it, the research wasn't there.

And actually, I was very, very fortunate in the end to, after going down loads of blind alleys, to meet somebody who really did understand it.

And

it's a sort of pain disorder.

It's

how your body processes pain, and your pain centre in a proportion of people can get thrown out.

And that's what happens.

So everything becomes your sensitivity to pain becomes extremely heightened, and you experience chronic pain.

It's very hurty.

So, yeah, so they weren't able to basically monitor parts of the brain, and there aren't blood tests for it, so it's only really through brain monitoring that they have come to understand what's

what they call a neuropathic pain disorder.

And because monitoring of the brain has become so much more sophisticated, and the research can be done, they now understand that, yeah, it's a thing.

It's not just a silly lady making it up because she's unhappy with it.

It's actually a thing, it's a quantifiable thing, and it's a treatable thing.

How did it manifest in you?

How did it come on?

It came on, I think, because of rheumatoid arthritis which started and then I've got what's called secondary fibromyalgia so my fibromyalgia came along as part of that.

So to untangle them was quite complicated so actually I've only got rheumatoid arthritis in my hands and wrists.

I don't have it in my hips or my feet or anything.

But there are a different set of criteria for fibromyalgia so when I was really thoroughly tested and people started to take it seriously, medics did, they could see that I was falling into a different category.

So it's quite it was a slightly complicated thing to have diagnosed.

How are you managing it day to day then, just with painkillers?

No, at the time I was, yeah, at the time I was just taking off the shelf sort of painkillers and hot water bottles and just sort of, you know, hot baths and all those none of it really worked.

But but I I had a a very brilliant medic who put me on the a path of of taking medicine to because sleep is at the root of it.

So the my rheumatoid arthritis had disrupted my sleep.

And one of the things is disrupted sleep can set off this uh neural pain path.

'Cause the the sleep centre in your brain and the pain part processing part of your brain sit next to each other in your head, and they don't know why one can throw the other one off.

They just so far know that that can happen.

So my sleep had been thrown off by my rheumatoid arthritis, because it's painful, it wakes you up, and so that was why I got the fibromyalgia.

So, um, yeah, so it's all calmed down now, and it's really, you know, it's under control.

Good, I'm glad.

But it is treatable.

It's not, you don't, it's always there latently.

So, you know, I can notice that if I'm not doing all those little things that anybody listening who has got the same sort of conditions will know, you kind of have to do things to keep your health good.

And if I don't do things like make sure I've got good sleep, make sure that I have lower stress levels, that I walk every day, that I do yoga regularly.

And I took a whole load of quite complicated medicines as well, but I'm glad to say I'm off those.

Now I'm still on some medication for my rheumatoid arthritis, which

I'm very happy to be on because it's good.

It works.

How long was the period when it was at its worst then?

About a couple of years, yes, probably a couple of years.

I mean,

well, you had to to quit your job.

Well, you feel like you're going mentally.

Yeah, well, I was going to say, like, what does that do to you mentally?

Because...

Well, quitting my job didn't make me feel like it, but the pain, you know, if you have a long-term chronic pain condition or two,

it starts to corrode your personality.

Because you can't really be happy.

No, you can't.

You can't.

And you start to lose your sense of humour.

Your bandwidth for life in general becomes much, much tighter, you know, so you can't really cope with

things that normally would wash over you are fine.

And what were the things that brought you comfort in that period?

What were the things that did bring you some happiness?

Do you remember, if anything?

Yeah, I mean chocolate's good, isn't it?

So you were still able to get some pleasure out of those things.

Yeah, you get pleasure out of your family, but you feel like a loser, I think.

I felt like a loser, you know, because you can't do the things.

You can't, if it's a long drive to take your child somewhere you can't do that long drive or if it's standing out in the cold to watch a hockey match or you know that's not that makes you feel very bad you know you feel

you you that's part of the kind of grinding down your sense of self

yeah

man were you also exploring kind of alternative therapies and did you I did yoga I still that was my introduction to yoga which is now one of the greatest joys of my life I mean I'm I'm really shit at it but I love it

yeah so that was a whole but also it's not alternative it's not it's not a kind of woo-woo thing it's absolutely proven that it lowers your cortisol levels and your stress responses, and that it actually, you know, it is entirely measurable that things like yoga and meditation help.

You've just got to get the right practitioners, you've got to do this.

I researched that and did that, and that was a whole new world that opened up to me.

So, you know, I feel,

in a sense, it was all just a kind of very significant life experience for me.

I feel kind of without, I don't want to sound Pollyannish, but definitely

I grew as a person because of it.

I definitely did.

I definitely did.

I became far more sort of calm and empathetic and thoughtful about things that had never occurred to me before.

Good, because you sounded like a nightmare before.

I was an absolute terrible person.

Last thing, silly thing.

You were on room 101.

I was on room 101.

Oh, what did you put in there?

Well, you tell me what you put in there.

I can't remember.

Well, I think I put in a Britney Spears video.

Did I have her dressed as a schoolgirl?

Yeah, maybe, maybe, yeah.

Certainly something Britney Spears related.

Very loud voices, people who talk very loudly.

I think I put them in there.

Oh, yeah.

Cowboy boots, unless you're a cowboy.

For men or women?

No, just for men.

Yeah, women can do that.

Women can do what they like.

Yeah, just for men.

Just for men.

Prescriptively, for men.

What else?

Have you got it there?

Yeah.

I've forgotten.

Baby on board stickers.

Yeah, don't do that.

What's wrong with baby on board stickers?

It's like saying, I'm fertile.

It's like hanging your genitals out the window of the car and saying, I'm fertile.

I always thought that the weird thing about those was like I know you were considering ramming your car into the back of mine but please don't because there's a baby on board.

Well and also it's like yeah but are other people not important too?

Are babies more important than other people?

No.

I mean grannies are important.

I don't know you know I just sort of think it's kind of twee and nonsense.

Yeah fine.

And Brazilian waxes.

Yeah you do it.

I tell you what, we'll go together.

We'll go together.

All the ladies can go with all their male partners and we'll do it together.

I don't know.

I mean hot wax slapped on your genitals and ripped off the speed.

How are you feeling about that?

No, I wouldn't have it, but I'm a hairy man.

I've always been just a monkey boy.

For me, hairiness is fine.

I like hairy people.

So I don't really understand any kind of pubic management.

Phrase of the day.

I've never really.

The swinging proximity of death has just taken second place to pubic management.

Yeah, I've always thought, wow, that's next level.

Why would you do that?

Exactly.

So that I think it was, you know, it was my very much, I was going to say, latent, it's not latent, my rabid feminism coming at, yeah, it's like, don't be asking the ladies to do that.

Yeah.

The ladies might want to do it for themselves, though, sister.

Yeah, well, that I would call that internalised misogyny.

That's a whole other episode.

Luckily, and on Twitter, otherwise you'd be dealing with that for a few days.

Do you know, Adam, people should do what they want to do.

Yeah.

I just happen to think it's barbaric.

I'm sure for a lot of people, dripping hot wax and sculpting your pubic hair or removing it all together can be very positive.

It's a growth experience, ironically.

Yeah, but yeah, do what you want, but just remember it is barbaric.

Yes.

What were yours?

Mine were,

I had wackaging.

Do you know what wackaging is?

I don't even know what what that is.

It's funny messages on packaging.

Oh, okay, like oat milk.

Yeah,

they do it on Oatly, and they do it.

I think the people that blazed a trail for wackaging were the innocent smoothie people.

Yeah.

They had fun stuff on the package.

No.

No, don't do that.

Don't do that.

Keep it formal in the public space, please.

Yeah, don't be patronizing me.

Yeah.

I can get my bants from my friends.

Thank you.

Not the pack of milk milk or the orange juice.

I'm fine.

I like that one.

Wackaging.

Wackaging.

And you know, like when you go on the train and on the virgin trains and they have the funny messages that play when you use the toilet.

Get lost.

I don't like it.

And my last thing for Room 101 was actors in the real world.

Like when you go to the London dungeon and there's people dressed up as old

Mackenzie and ghouls or whatever and they're interacting with.

Adam, they're just turning a buck.

I know they are.

I have a cousin who does it or who earned some money.

I know it's a valuable lifeline for aspiring actors, but I don't like it.

No,

I get where you're coming from, but you know, cut the actors some slack.

Yeah, okay, I will.

Can I ask you a question?

Yeah.

Did you write the Quantum of Solace song?

Well, we both wrote one, me and Joe, because that was back in Six Music Days, and the challenge would be to write a song each on a theme.

So Joe wrote one called The Sontum of Qualis.

Right.

And his was more popular than mine,

although I got some respect from Richard Curtis, who heard my song, and he liked the line, I want a quantum of solace, but no more than a quantum.

I know they do pick bags of solace, but I don't want a quantum.

There you go, thank you.

I only want a teeny, tiny bit of it before I kill you.

I actually,

oh my god, I laughed so hard when I heard that.

I have sung that song to a Bond director and made him laugh.

Oh, wow.

Sam Mendez find that proper funny.

Hey.

That's two directors I've impressed with my Bond song.

It's so funny.

Thank you.

So funny.

Oh, well, maybe I should get that on my gravestone.

Because if I don't get that, I don't know what else they would put on there.

They'd probably end up putting some YouTube comment that I read out once on 8 out of 10 Cats Does Countdown that I didn't even write.

Yeah, put the Quantum of Solace somewhere.

This is a Squarespace advert.

Do you want to build a website?

Yes, I will tell you how.

Visit squarespace.com/slash Buxton.

Now start a free trial today, and in minutes, you will say, My website dreams are finally coming true.

Just tell Squarespace what you want to do.

They'll suggest some templates that might be right for you.

Drag in pictures and text, add some videos.

And next thing you know, your website will be done.

Visit squarespace.com/slash Buxton today.

Start your free trial and have yourself a play.

And when you have decided that you're ready to pay, type in the offer code Buxton.

Why?

Because you'll save 10% if it's your first purchase of a website or domain.

Oh, 10%!

That's my favorite percent.

Thank you, Squarespace.

Great.

Continue.

I'm James Bond, I'm a spy, and I'm working for the Brits.

I've got cars and guns and gadgets, I've got ladies with big brains.

I've got licenses to kill, I've got licenses to fish.

I've got sexy suits and air miles, but here's my biggest wish.

I'd like a quantum of solace, but no more than a quantum.

I know they do big bags of solace, but I don't want them.

I only want a teeny tiny slice of solace before I shoot you.

Bottom, location, chase, bottom, location, chase.

Shooting dead man is in the busy foreign street.

Bottom, location, chase, bottom, location, chase.

Running all around, and now I really hurt my feet.

So, Mr.

Than.

Yes, hello, um, you want to stop me?

I do want to stop you, yes, but only if it's exciting.

I met a lovely lady, but found out she was a rotter.

So we exchanged some saucy quips.

I snogged her, then I shot her.

But I felt quite bad because I'm such a modern, complex guy.

Sometimes this job gets to you, and maybe that is why.

I'd like a quantum of solace, but no more than a quantum.

I know they do think bags of solace, but I don't want them.

I only want a teeny tiny slice of solace before I shoot you.

Want them

solace?

I'm saying the name of the film of the music.

Want them all solace.

I didn't again

I think we will meet again, Mr.

Bond.

Okay.

Bye.

Hey, welcome back, podcasts.

That was, well, that was my Quantum of Solace song from 2008.

15 years ago when that film came out.

And as I said to Kirsty,

I think Cornballs beat me that week on Song Wars with his Santum of Qualis song.

Hello, fact-checking Santa here.

In fact, upon checking the Adam and Joe Wikipedia page, I see that Adam's Quantum of Solace song actually beat Joe's Santum of Qualis song in the Song Wars listener vote, 64 to 36.

And this is another example of Adam trying to garner sympathy with a self-pitying narrative of defeat.

Oh dear, that's bad.

But on the other hand, he beat Joe, so that's good.

Santum of Qualis, a viral hit when he initially uploaded it to YouTube.

And then I think he took it down for a long while because he was suddenly a part of the

Hollywood inner circle with his directing work.

And I think he was a little anxious that he might

get beaten up by Daniel Craig or something.

I think it's back up on YouTube, so I'll post a link if I can find it.

In the description of today's podcast, my version of Quantum of Solace that you just heard was a slight remix, some of you may have noticed.

I dug it out from my computer archives and opened up the GarageBand file so I could

render it out in best possible quality, but some of the files were missing, the loops, loops, etc., and the instruments.

So, I took the opportunity just to spruce it up a little bit.

An exclusive remix for you.

No, that's okay, you're welcome.

I wouldn't miss an opportunity to indulge in a bit of Song Wars nostalgia, would I?

Kirstie's fault.

But, of course, it was Kirstie that you heard before that, and I'm very grateful indeed to her for coming along and waffling with me.

It was really nice to meet her.

Don't forget to explore her new podcast/slash radio series, Young Again.

I'll put a link in today's description, but if you have the BBC Sounds app,

you can listen to it there.

And I'm not sponsored by the BBC Sounds app,

but I do recommend using it.

It's a great source of all sorts of interesting stuff.

John Ronson, you can find on there with everything fell apart and

lots of good bits and pieces.

Rosie!

Hey, I wanted to say, hey,

hey, I wanted to say thank you so much.

If you were able to donate to Lorna Tucker's Kickstarter for her film about homelessness, someone's daughter, someone's son, they reached their target.

They were raising money to help them get a distribution deal

so that as many people as possible can see the film and they did it.

So if you were one of the people that contributed, thank you so much

the fields are very waterlogged still i'll give you some squelchy foley

I'm walking with my legs wide apart so you can get some stereo spread on the squelchy foley there.

What do you think of that dog legs?

One of the saddest things I've ever seen.

Squelchy Foley.

It's Axel Foley's Norfolk cousin.

Thank you so much to Seamus Murphy Mitchell.

Thanks, Seamus,

for all his production support and conversation editing on this episode.

Much appreciated.

Thanks to Helen Green, she does the artwork for the podcast.

Thank you to everyone at ACAST,

but thanks most of all

to you.

I suppose if you're listening to the end, then you're probably

a well, you're a quartermaster, old school, deep-level podcat.

Oh, look, there's the first of the fireworks over in the distance there.

Come on, Rosie, we better get back.

But I wanted to say,

just to tease,

that I hope next year,

2024,

we might be doing some live podcast shows around the country.

And the idea is to

find some nice venues and get in touch with some friends of the podcast, previous guests that I've particularly enjoyed talking to over the years, and do some live things.

Anyway, I'll keep you posted.

It's early days yet.

And when plans do materialize, if they do, which I hope they will,

I will at some point send out a newsletter.

A newsletter, Buckles?

What the hell are you talking about?

Well, I do have a newsletter that I sometimes send out if I have to tell people about things.

And you can sign up for it by going onto my website, adam-buxton.co.uk.

I'll put a link in the description.

Somewhere on that front page, I think you have the option to sign up for the newsletter.

And you can always unsubscribe from it quite easily.

As far as I'm aware, I am not collecting your data and passing it on to creeps.

So, yeah, that's there.

But, I mean, you will know, if you're a long-term listener to the podcast, you will know that I'm not that great at things outside of the actual podcast.

Some would say I'm not even great at things within the actual podcast,

organization-wise, but I'm even worse when it comes to

extra bits and pieces.

I mean, every week I do put the episode on my blog, and often there is a picture of me with the guest when we're recording.

Actually, there's not one this week, I forgot to ask Kirstie for a photograph after we were recording.

But yeah, usually there's a

photo of me and the guest, and

you know, the links that are in the description, etc.

And

there's also on various other pages of my website collections of biographical bits and pieces and links to some of my old youtube videos

uh speaking of the youtube page though

about a year ago i teamed up with a company who

were going to upload episodes and clips of the podcast on a regular basis to my page.

And I think the idea was well just to make the podcast available on another platform I guess we were also thinking that we might make some revenue from it

anyway that didn't happen

I think these days if you're looking to make any revenue for anything off YouTube podcast wise then you definitely do have to film it

and that's not something I'm going to start doing anytime soon

so

I think what I'm going to do now is

kind of put the YouTube page more or less back to the way it was

before all those clips and things started getting posted.

It's interesting news, though, isn't it?

Thought I'd share that with you.

Anyway, listen, sorry.

I was saying how much I appreciate you listening right to the end of the podcast, and I think that,

especially after talking to Kirsty about the whole process,

we ought to have a hug.

Come here,

Good to see you.

All right, go carefully out there.

And until next time,

we share the same aural space.

Bear in mind that I love you.

Bye.

Like and subscribe.

Like and subscribe.

Like and subscribe,

please like and subscribe.

Give me like a smile and a thumbs up,

I take a pat for me bums up,

give me like a smile and a thumbs up,

I take a pat for me bums up.

Like and subscribe,

like and subscribe,

like and subscribe, please like and subscribe.

Give me like a smile and a thumbs up,

I take a pat for me bums up,

give me like a smile and a thumbs up, I take a button for me buttons.

Like and subscribe.

I can't find five.

Take a like button on five.

I can't find five.

Nine seconds button for the buttons up.