AMANDA KNOX talks Trial, Amélie, Redemption

The the night of the of the crime, you were with your boyfriend and you watched the film Amelie.

Amelie, yeah.

Yeah, was it so was that the last movie you watched for like four years?

Yeah, that was that was the movie I was watching when this crime occurred.

No, I love that movie.

Don't you think she's acting annoying a little bit?

No, I love that movie.

She acts like Amelia Bedelia a little bit, you think?

Sure.

It was the night that your life I would hate it even more if your life got ruined the night I watched Amelie.

Amelie is the reason why I was safely in someone else's home instead of at home getting and murdered myself.

Oh, my favorite fairy show.

Oh, my God,

family show.

Almighty me.

Hey guys, welcome to the Adam Friedland Show.

It's your boy, Adam Friedland.

Guys,

on a sincere note, I want to thank everyone for the feedback we got on the last episode.

It was really nice and it seems like it reached a lot of people and it feels good.

It's unexpected.

We didn't think that that would happen and it's pretty cool for all of us here at the office.

And so thanks a lot again for everyone.

It's embarrassing.

I cried just don't

girls saw that as always I want to thank our members here on youtube.com for supporting the show through the Freedland Family Foundation and if you're not a member if and you want to get our episodes early and have your name in the credits you can sign up here on youtube.com There's two different ways you could click the join button at the top of your screen or you could click the link in the description of this video below.

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As you may want, you may have noticed, I'm looking pretty fresh today.

I'd like to announce officially we will be releasing Adam Friedland's show merch in the next week.

This is taking way too long to get off the ground, and I can assure you it has nothing to do with my civil rights moment.

I'm not, it's really embarrassing.

Should we not actually sell merch?

Is this weird?

It might be kind of a weird thing.

It's kind of in bad taste, guys.

this is coincidental.

This is a coincidental merch launch.

Fuck.

That's weird.

Yeah, we might.

We really shouldn't do it.

I saved the Jews last week, and now I'm throwing them back in it.

Now I'm throwing them back in the fucking con- Oh my god.

As you may, we're launching merch.

And it's unrelated to that.

Unrelated to anything that's been happening recently in the show.

We're launching merch.

It's been a fucking comedy of errors to get the site up.

The side will be launching by the end of the week um we're selling these hats they're pretty sick i get i took

god it feels

just i'm literally just

oh my god i was queen nestor last week and now i'm fucking adolf eichmann so guys what are we selling we're selling these hats pretty fresh pretty sick

We got these shirts.

This is based on a Jay Leno shirt from the Tonight Show from the early 90s.

Here of mine.

Zach, what else we got?

We got this one.

This is more of a punk rock style with the new Adam Friedland Show logo.

And one more.

Ooh, a military green, folks.

So,

folks, by the end of the week, whoever the fuck, we thought that the web designer guys stole money from, it's been a long story, guys.

And it's unrelated to anything that's happened recently.

We will be launching our merch store.

And for those that are members and patrons, there will be a discount code for all of our merch.

My guest this week is Amanda Knox, the activist and author who was wrongly accused of murdering her roommate Meredith Kircher in 2007 while the two lived together during a study abroad program in Italy.

Amanda suffered through a long legal battle including a four-year stint in an Italian prison that ended with her exoneration on the charges of murder.

The story is now the subject of a new Hulu original series, The Twisted Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox, which Knox co-produced with Monica Lewinsky.

Monica Lewinsky cosign.

Monica, we need you on the show next.

Please, Monica, if you're, please, Monica.

I would look, please.

Anyway, so here's my conversation with Amanda Knox.

I usually don't like people.

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Thanks again.

Our next guest is a published author, podcaster, executive producer whose life story has recently been turned into a television series on Hulu.

Please welcome Amanda Knox, everyone.

Woo-hoo!

Woo!

Woo-hoo!

What a beautiful show!

Thank you for having me.

I know I've been like talking about this iPad thing.

I don't know if it...

Did it turn off on you?

It's just, I don't know if this is going to be the new style of the show.

Is this your subtle way of beginning the conversation?

No,

it's me talking about myself, which is a great way to interview.

But do you always use your middle finger to touch the pad?

You picked up on that?

No, I was flipping you off.

Yeah.

Welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

You were strongly advised against me.

I was so strongly advised against you.

No,

just a friend of mine who was like, I'm afraid that he's going to laugh at you, not with you.

Why would I laugh at you?

I don't know.

I'm not sure.

You have apparently a reputation.

So Whitney Cummings said, don't do the jokes?

No, it was not Whitney.

It was not Whitney.

You were officially an enemy of the show.

No, it was not.

Don't wrongly accuse me of enemies of the show.

DJ Academics, you're a number one.

Whitney Cummings, you're a close second.

Oh, my God.

Donald Trump,

you've moved down to three.

Yes, it was Donald.

Donald Trump said, don't do the show.

Do you have his number?

No, I do not.

Monica Lewinsky said, don't do the show.

No, but I do have her number.

I watched your podcast you did with Monica.

Yeah, what'd you think?

I just love Monica.

She's so funny.

I love you.

I don't love.

Sorry, your husband's here.

I don't love, you know, I like both of you.

You guys have a good dynamic.

Yeah, but she's so sweet and she's so smart and she works her ass off and she's been through hell.

What's not to love?

You guys have like a commonality there?

Because you guys have been like, your stories have been, you've been, you know, blasted out in the public eye and kind of, you know.

Yeah, and like fought tooth and nail to like have a say over who we are in the public imagination.

And she really was the one who forged the path forward.

I mean, I'm following in her footsteps.

Obviously, your story became incredibly,

global news.

Where were you when it was going on by?

I had an alibi.

Yeah, yeah, good.

I did too, but it didn't do anything.

I have an alibi for where I was.

I think, do you think that, and I know we're jumping around a million directions, but do you think that the phenomenon of true crime, which your story's kind of been retconned into?

Because I think it post-like.

Well, it is a true crime in the sense that a true crime occurred.

My roommate was raped and murdered and all of that.

Yeah.

But yeah.

What I mean is like as a as kind of a cottage industry in society, like post-serial it's become like it's exploded, right?

Yeah, well, and I think even, I mean, serial was possible because of documentaries like Making a Murderer and

Thin Blue Line and

even the documentary that Netflix did on my case.

Yeah.

So

sometimes my girlfriend, like

am I correct in thinking like it's a majority female audience?

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Typically it's a majority female audience.

And that's interesting.

Like why is it that guys like watching things explode and girls like watching assaulting

crimes?

I don't know.

Like

maybe it's more, maybe true crime is dealing more with the process of the aftermath of the destruction, whereas like men are more interested in the destruction itself.

Sometimes I think that it's like sometimes they want to see a lady whose life is worse than theirs.

Maybe.

Sometimes like I'm in like in the morning my girlfriend's reading Apple News, and her algorithm is just, I call it girlfriend news.

I'll like wake up and she'll be like, a baby killed, like, committed suicide.

And I'm like, why is this in the news?

And I was like, I don't want to know that.

It is true.

So, okay, so now we're getting into

why is the media what it is?

And because we know that

the strongest feeling that drives engagement is outrage.

So when you see something like a baby commits suicide, you automatically just automatically.

It's sad.

It's too sad.

And my phone does this to me too.

Like, I can't figure out, I'm an old lady with this stuff, too.

Like, yeah, and I don't want it.

I don't want this information out there.

Like, I don't need that.

I need kiddie videos.

That's what I need.

And thankfully, it also serves me at that.

But the outrage machine that drives engagement, which is what our entire media industry is built upon, is built upon that.

But I don't think, I think it's not quite fair to say that it's just that your girlfriend wants to see someone whose life is worth it.

I'm joking.

Yeah, I think it's more coming from an empathetic place.

Yeah.

No, I think it's probably that women's lives are under threat probably more than men's lives are, right?

We do feel the precariousness of our lives more, I think.

Women are violence, you know, under threat of violence more than men are, so I think that probably it kind of plays into that.

Is that true?

I mean, men are under threat of violence as well.

They're just under threat of violence from each other.

I appreciate it.

I appreciate that.

Well, it's true.

Especially when you're a white, straight guy like me.

Yeah.

The most

everyone just wants to touch your face.

We've touched on a lot of things that I want to expand upon later on, but for those individuals that we have a lot of four-year-olds that watch this show, so they might not be familiar with the year 2007.

Right.

For me, I was in university.

It was a glory.

I was, you know, Animal Collective.

Are we the same age?

How old are we?

I'm 87.

We are the the same age.

Okay, I see.

Class of 2005.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm July.

When are you?

April.

April.

Do you really?

You can tell.

Do you respect me as an older guy?

We'll see.

At the end of this conversation.

Are you jealous?

Yeah.

No.

So, yeah, we are the same age.

2007, we all remember Animal Collective Meriwether Post Pavilion.

We got, you know.

Sure, the Gannon Pixie Dream Girl thing was big in those days.

Club article.

Yeah, I remember that.

You grew up in Seattle.

You went to UW,

right?

I actually

know a lot of people that grew up in that environment, like Pacific Northwest.

It's like a very specific, like, like Patagonia vest kind of

situation.

Yes, it is that kind of situation.

We all go outside a lot, even though the weather isn't always accommodating.

Pretty progressive.

Yeah.

I was the kind of kid who could just like do my own thing and be a creative weirdo and it wasn't a big deal.

So clearly your case, you know, you went to college and then you became an international spectacle.

Yeah.

From,

you know, from just under the most traumatic, worst circumstances.

Yeah.

How aware?

I guess prior to your arrest, you must have understood that it became tabloid news, you know,

I think in three countries, right?

Primarily, like Italy,

the United Kingdom, and the United States.

Yeah, so yes.

So really early on, it was already clear that there was a lot of media buzz around

the case.

However, like I wasn't aware of what media they were.

I was in and out of the police station.

So

it's not like I was like...

sitting at home, which my home was now a crime scene, so I didn't have a home.

I was hanging out with my boyfriend of a week who was now like taking me under his wing and letting me stay at his place while I had nowhere else to go.

That really moves the relationship forward, I guess.

Yeah, yeah.

You were accused of crime, yeah.

Well, we hadn't been accused yet, right?

So, right?

So, like, in the first few days, we just were responding to this crazy, horrific thing that seemed to come out of completely nowhere.

Like, it was, we were having this beautiful study abroad experience, our whole lives ahead of us.

Everything was going great until suddenly I come home and there's a crime scene.

And I call the cops because I don't know what to do.

And they come and the whole thing explodes.

And it's happening so quickly.

Like I was arrested within five days and in those five days I was being questioned for over 10 hours a day.

So like I didn't really, there was no way for me to keep pace with how fast everything was developing in spite of the fact that we didn't actually have, there wasn't a lot known

about what happened to my roommate at the time.

Like very little was known.

It was just all

a lot of pressure descending upon this small town and on these local law enforcement who were charged with discovering who had committed this really heinous and is seemingly inexplicable crime.

And to contextualize, I'm a bad interviewer.

You were on study abroad.

Yes.

And your roommate was murdered and you were

questioned for five days and then later incarcerated.

Yeah, okay, so

I was terrible at my job.

okay yeah so why don't you share your story

yeah we'll edit it in no no um so for those who are not familiar um when i was 20 years old back in 2007 i went to go study abroad i lived in a house with three other young women one of whom one day was discovered raped and murdered in her bedroom and this was very shortly i was only in perusia for like five weeks so i was like just getting my bearings and i still was not fluent in the language, and I'm the youngest person in the house, and I'm the one who comes home and stumbles across this crime scene.

I call the police, and the police come, and they start investigating this case, but

from the very early stages,

and this is known now because the prosecutor has written his own book about it and everything,

when they

came and discovered the crime scene, they immediately thought that what was apparently visible, that there was a break-in, that whoever broke in raped and stabbed to death my roommate, that that was actually staged.

It was faked.

There was actually something more conspiratorial going on.

And so they believed that someone who had access to the house, who lived in the house, was involved.

And that suspicion fell very quickly onto me.

And so they pursued a case against me even when

the DNA evidence and all the evidence in the case came back showing that it was this known burglar known for being aggressive towards women who had a history of breaking and entering all of his DNA was at the crime scene they had already yeah footprints bloody hand prints his DNA in my roommate's body like all of that definitively proving his and you know his guilt in this case but by the time that they identified that evidence they had already arrested me.

And so instead of admitting that they were wrong, they pursued a case where they suggested that I had orchestrated a murder orgy.

And

that

story just blew up over the world.

I mean, it's like perfect fodder for tabloid news.

What's interesting also is that 2007 was like kind of an inflection point, I think, of like

media.

Totally.

So you were kind of at the tail end of

tabloid establishment, like the sun and the daily mail, and

it's subsequently changed.

It's kind of like you got Facebook what the year before that, right?

Yeah, so the iPhone came out that year.

I started texting freshman year.

There you go.

Like, yeah, we did not have smartphones back in those days.

I was on a Nokia flip phone.

Remember,

or like even just, you know, in Perusia, I didn't have internet.

I had to go to an internet cafe.

Yeah.

Like, oh, you know, talk about aging myself.

Like, internet cafes were in.

Remember that, Joji?

Yeah.

In our day, back in our day, yeah.

Yeah, back in our day, you had to go to a cafe to email your mom.

And

so, yeah, so it was a different time, and you're right, like it was the beginning, it was when I think traditional establishment media was experiencing, was really realizing that there was a crisis, there was an economic crisis, their economic model was not going to survive the internet, and so they were desperate to try to like retain readers and so that and they and to do so with less of a budget and so cheaply quickly efficiently to try to out-compete the internet

and and as a result they just made shit up and and perpetuated misinformation um because they were in their death throes and and also it was three different countries correct so like the narrative you know in the uk like that their their tabloid rags was like the foxy noxy like they love rhymes over there in their

I've learned this since then, yes.

Foxy Noxy is just that's breakfast, lunch, and dinner for those guys.

They're like, this is perfect, print it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then in the United States, it was like this,

like American girls, you know, scared abroad, you know.

Right.

Some of it was, although like.

It was also just the salacious sex angle, too.

Yes.

Yeah.

There was this like weird angle here in the U.S.,

specifically with like The Daily Beast, I recall, was really terrible.

But like, there was a writer who wrote for The Daily Beast who just wrote these just non-stop articles about student killer, Amanda Knock, student killer, man and ox.

Yeah, yeah, it was women.

Yeah, it was women writers.

She was hating on you.

Yeah, she was.

My point prove it.

Oh, no.

I want to see other women destroyed.

Well, and but that also was this like narrative that the prosecution was putting forth that like all women hate other women, hence, of course, Amanda.

So I agree with the prosecution.

Apparently, yeah, yeah.

And then also also in Italy, there was like this kind of, it's a Catholic country.

It was a religious prosecutor.

And then they were kind of labeled.

Yeah, there was definitely

a Madonna, yeah, Madonna horror dichotomy that was going on where both my roommate and I were completely misrepresented.

So in Italy itself, they had stereotypes about what are American girls like, what are British girls like?

And they thought, well, British girls are uptight and judgmental, and American girls are loose and

slutty.

And, well, whatever, you know, they're human beings, and they have all these different facets.

But the way that it got presented in court was Meredith is this like uptight, judgmental person.

Amanda is this slutty, sort of in-your-face person.

Obviously,

their confrontation would result in a sex murder.

And

for me at the time, like what was so frustrating about it was this was obviously a fantasy that was built on stereotypes and and

misogynistic pornographic fantasy yeah

but

so many people bought into it and i'm actually curious like

back in the day do you remember do you did you ever follow beautiful i mean

no i mean that was like an aspect of my well i was gonna say my father was like that was another news story where he was like she's beautiful adam and she's a she's across the world and she's scared and i was like oh my dad's in love with this this uh my dad was should we hit him up yeah no he gets so embarrassed dude really yeah I'm like dad I'm with your crush right now for well you know what we should send him a selfie no come on let's not embarrass I'm I'm sorry to embarrass you dude she thinks you're cute

I know listen I don't want to lead you astray your husband's here too you have nothing to worry about with this guy it must be so it's actually so funny that that was how the British and American girls were labeled because I don't know if you've been on vacation but you sound like you're afraid that you're about to be murdered the night of the no I'm not by the British these people are come on they're they're pathetic people okay they've never

I've no

I'm sorry I'm causing an international event right now you are the night the night of the crime you were with your boyfriend five days first of all just did it accelerate the relationship Did you guys drop I Love You faster?

Well, no, I think it's more the opposite.

Like, in fact, something that is an undercurrent of the show that we've developed here is this story of love lost, right?

Like, here, both Raffaella and I were both at the very beginning stages of this

young love.

Yeah, no,

handsome, but like sweet.

Like, he was shy.

Like, he was very unlike a lot of the Italian guys that I met.

He was shy, he was sweet.

Princea.

Well, yeah, he was very cavalaresco.

He was very

chivalrous.

Chivalrous.

Yeah.

He sucks, this guy.

You don't have nothing to worry about.

In front of your huh?

No, that guy looks so...

I mean,

but anyway, yeah, so, but then we're like put into this horrible nightmare of situation where he's only known me for a week.

Yeah.

And suddenly, because he's my alibi, he's being accused of involvement in this horrible crime.

And he then spends four years in prison and eight years on trial and is is convicted at a certain point and reconvicted at a certain point.

Did you guys try it LDR?

LDR.

Long distance relationship?

No, I feel like I was more focused on proving my innocence.

I'm being a fucking

idiot.

Maybe I am being mean.

Your advice against doing the show is correct.

No, no, no, but I hear your point.

Like, oh, okay, you're in.

It could be romantic.

It could be like the world is against us.

Well, you know what?

And this is something I talk about in my book, is like the world was vilifying me for my sexuality and the very fact that I was like a desirable object became like a point of like deep shame and

fear for me because not only was I being you know

vilified in the press like I

I was getting sexually harassed.

Well, I was sexually harassed in prison by prison guards.

I was, you know, being accused of being this like sex monster in court.

And so just like being, just just like the fact that I'm attractive to other people became a object like a reason for me to like hate myself and to feel like I was being I was just being destroyed because of other people's like sexual fixations on me and so the idea of being anyone's object of interest became suddenly very toxic to me.

Obviously you're a private person and suddenly you're not a private person anymore.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's like adjusting to that is

a a very difficult thing, I would imagine.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, to have every intimate detail of my life brutally scrutinized was a huge thing when I was 20 years old.

Yeah.

The night of the crime, you were with your boyfriend and you watched the film Amelie.

Amelie, yeah.

Yeah.

So was that the last movie you watched for like four years?

I mean, there were some movies that we were able to watch in prison, but yeah,

that was the movie I was watching when Ms.

Ramford no I love that movie no if it was you she's kind of annoying in that she's it's just in French

don't you think she's acting annoying a little bit I mean it depends on what you think is annoying my thought was like I wish

if that was the last movie you watched for four years I'd be like oh I wish it was a better movie no I love that movie she's she acts like Amelia Bedelia a little bit you think sure yeah but there's something charming about Amelia Bedelia yeah what do you mean she's she's she's making a mess she's supposed to be the She's supposed to be the nanny?

She's knocking into things.

She has magical thinking.

She's, you know, she's experiencing the world in that manic pixie dream world kind of way, which I can a little bit relate to.

No way.

She's not Natalie Poorman and Garden Say.

That's a lady that's making my house into a mess.

I would fire Amelia Bedelia.

And no,

no, that's just like...

It's the same kind of vibe.

My stupid mind, that was my thought.

What movie would you watch before you went to prison for four years?

Hmm.

Hmm.

Good question.

I guess Donnie Darko.

Okay.

It's a smart movie.

Yeah, sure.

Is that going to give you the strength to get through?

Yeah, it's like it's pretty trippy and stuff.

Okay.

I've thought about it, you know.

Just it would give you nightmares in the days.

It would be distracting.

That gave me nightmares.

It's a movie.

It's make-believe.

I'm not afraid of it.

I've never been afraid of a movie.

Oh, okay.

I get scared.

Have you ever been offered like a...

Were you ever offered a career in entertainment after you got out of prison?

Ish.

Like someone wanted me to star on a porn.

And I imagine you had court fees and stuff like that.

And like, how did your family paid for your defense, right?

Yes, they went into debt paying for my defense.

Right now, I mean, you seem like you've...

You've processed it, you're speaking about a traumatic experience in public.

But it has to also be something you've spoken about a million times and it has to also be like as a human being probably annoying right it so here's what's annoying here's what's annoying and I've had annoying experiences with this where it feels like I've had conversations with people where it felt like they didn't actually care what I had to say.

They just had their own preconceived idea of what my story was and

they wanted to be the one who got to ask me, did you murder your roommate?

And they didn't really care what my answer was.

They just wanted to be the person who got to ask me that.

And

so any kind of conversation that is just limited to

what did you do that night?

And like just in basically putting me on trial again, like I find that to be

tiresome and unoriginal and not very useful because I think the actual facts speak for themselves and I shouldn't have to defend myself in that way anymore.

But when I have a conversation, like this is the first time I'm having this conversation with you and I don't actually know you that well so I'm kind of discovering

defending yourself I'm not judging you

but it's curious to me like what you find curious about it and what you might know about it

because there are a million different ways that I've had to process this experience from all the different angles and it seems like one thing that you're deeply interested in is this question of like I mean you're a media maker so it makes sense that you're very curious about like how media has evolved and what has been learned.

Yeah, but right, you're a media mogul, you're an icon, and so you want to know like how do you go about, you know, being a media icon and mogul ethically and responsibly.

I don't know, I know I don't, come on, I'm

seeing a few people.

I'm just trying my best.

I don't know how I found myself in this position in life, but you know.

Well, that's an interesting question.

Why do you have the influence to like have somebody like to share information?

Is that it?

It's a stupid world, yeah, yeah.

Well, okay, so like, how did you I poop my pants on a podcast?

Is that what happened?

I was with two way more talented guys on a podcast where I was like a nebish.

Okay.

So we like rebuilt the Dick Cabot show set and

and now, you know, now the newspaper thinks that this is a real thing.

But in reality, I'm a fraud.

I don't even know how to read.

Okay, well, but that's interesting.

I read Harry Potter all of them, though.

All right, high five.

Have you read those?

Are you kidding me?

I read them in prison, too.

Yeah, no, that's sort of how I learned how to speak Italian in prison.

You read Harry Potter in Italian.

I read Italian.

Yeah, because I love it.

Hermione.

Yeah, Hermione Grange.

No, I

love her.

I wish Harry got hurt.

I mean,

no, they didn't have that dynamic.

They never had that dynamic.

So good at school.

Yeah, sure.

And he's weird and traumatized and, you know, like needs that Ginny energy.

She's a strong woman.

I know.

I mean, it's cool.

I mean, it's, and it's kind of sick that he's like, now he's Real Brothers with Ron.

Yes.

Thank you.

But, like, honestly,

we were at the age where Harry was our age.

Yeah.

The book came out.

Yeah, I was sick with that.

He was like,

when he was like, how did

he want to take down Cho Chang?

I don't know why I said that.

Take down down Cho Chang.

You want to clap Cho Chang.

I'm sorry I'm talking this way.

I'm a fucking idiot.

When Harry was trying to clap Cho Chang in school, what a race.

Those books in retrospect are so racist.

Have you seen

Cho Chang?

Come on.

Have you ever seen someone asked J.K.

Rowling on Twitter,

is there any Jewish

wizards?

And she goes,

Anthony Goldstein, Ravenclole.

Anthony Goldstein, Ravenclole.

Yeah, I mean, obviously we all know the goblins or the Jews, but it's kind of, as we found out in society, it's probably more accurate than...

No, let's get back on track.

But it was sick, he was R-H.

He was sick, it was R-H, and I got to appreciate it.

And Drake is R-H, too.

Yeah, so.

Well, no, I was going to say I've got to appreciate more of Harry Potter's story in prison because there's a certain point where the whole world turns against him and calls him a liar and throws him under the bus.

And I was like, Harry and I have so much in common.

So Andy had to leave.

He had to go away.

Even though Hogwarts was the most special place in the world.

It was the place he loved the most.

But I guess Dumbledore believed him the whole time, you know?

Oh, of course.

Yeah,

Dumbledore would not have gone down with the ship if he didn't think that Harry could take the reins.

Yeah.

And it turns out Snape was the great guy.

I know.

I'm so in love with that turn of events.

Snape forever.

Snape forever?

Do you ever think that Snape sounds like he just had milk to

most La Poto?

Like he had milk to just most of the time.

I wasn't judging.

Five Poles for a Grove.

I was just hearing him.

I could go on forever about this Harry Potter crap.

And don't get me started on the Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them series.

Which I haven't really actually watched.

I actually watched it on a plane recently.

It's kind of fire.

Okay.

It goes into Double Door when he was gay.

Oh, I love that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, great.

But whatever.

Let's not touch this point.

Also, there's like a Hufflepuff main character.

Yeah, well.

Are you Huff?

I'm Huff.

Me too.

What?

It took me a while to admit I'm lazy and stupid.

I used to say, oh, no, I'm dead.

I'm hardworking.

What are you talking about?

Loyal.

I actually am loyal.

I've been cheated on multiple times and

not realized it because of my loyalty.

Here's another stupid one, like the omeli thing.

But like, I mean, Italian food is really good.

Like, did you get...

Was the food?

Are you asking, so many people ask me about Italian prison food?

It's still prison food, my friend.

So, no, I did not get to eat Italian cuisine.

I'm not saying like Michelin sorrel, but you know, like a cacho pepe is three ingredients.

What did they give you?

Gruel?

So, I mean, we did get pasta noodles, but often they were just like plain in olive oil or plain with broth.

That's not bad.

I mean, sure, it's

you know what?

It's better than the U.S.

where you get like rotten bologna.

So, you know what?

I'll take it.

But, yeah, we were fed twice a day

and it was a very strict, like

the most basic meat, the most basic, you know, boiled vegetable, and then pasta either with oil or broth.

Did you establish like relationships with other women in there?

Have you maintained relationships with anyone that you were with?

Yeah, yeah, actually.

So

again, you spent four years of my life there.

Who's your bestie?

My bestie from prison?

Yeah.

Well, there was one other American woman who was my cellmate for quite a while, and we depict her in the show.

She's an older woman who really kind of took me under her wing because I was a deer in headlights.

Like, I was not prepared for the prison environment.

I did not understand

that there is like a world of like poverty and deprivation, that I was just like completely like, I was one of the only people in prison who had all of my teeth.

I was one of the few people who could read and write.

I had to explain to my cellmates at one point that the earth is a sphere.

Like the level of just like not knowing

was shocking to me.

And so it really

gave me a bigger perspective about like what this world is all about and

the conditions that

people like you and me find ourselves in that put us in a position to fail.

So I learned to have a lot of sympathy for these women who were guilty of the crimes that they committed, but really had never been set up to make good decisions in the first place.

How many times have you been asked the question about orange is the new black?

Not that many times.

I tried watching that when I came home and it was too difficult for me to watch.

Yeah, me too.

Blah, blah, blah, you know?

Oh, no.

No, no, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I don't know.

Like, it's just, I've also, like, visited a prison once since I got back, and actually, this is.

I wouldn't imagine you'd want to watch that show.

Yeah, well I mean I'm curious to see how prison is depicted now that it's a very real thing for me.

But the one time I did go back to prison like after all this to visit was a Washington state prison and I was going there to support this program called Yoga Behind Bars

and I went to go see the program in person and of course I have to go through the whole process of like getting patted down and going through the metal detector and I was given this little like badge and they were like don't lose the badge or you can't leave the prison and I was like fuck off and then like of course we're doing yoga so I take the badge off and I leave it in the yoga room and I try to get out of the prison and they're like you can't leave and I was like having a panic attack and and cried the whole way home.

I want to talk about

the prosecutor in the case.

Sure.

I understand that you've

he was a can you first please like explain kind of what his

attitude was during the investigation and during the prosecution and what like, because I think it's an interesting thing to share for the story.

Yeah, okay.

So, in the series, we depict

not just my personal evolution as a human being who's gone through this process, but also my prosecutors.

So, in Italy, one thing to know is that prosecutors lead investigations.

They're in charge of the investigation.

They're not like separate from detectives like they are here in the U.S.

And so, from the very beginning, he was the one who was crafting the narrative about what he believed to be true.

And he he was the one who previously had investigated this really famous serial killer case in Italy called the Monster of Florence case that went unsolved.

Sounds scary.

Yeah, it's basically like a Jack the Ripper of Italy as something that he, and it was a very like sexually charged, you know, like mutilated bodies, really, really horrible stuff.

So he had that history behind him.

He also investigated.

He was a biased gentleman, he was like religious?

Yes, he's a very spiritual man, very Catholic,

and

just very traditional in nature.

He judged politically traditional.

He judged you for

being a

young woman.

Yeah, absolutely.

I think that, again, the way that he positioned both Meredith and me is that here's this like good, you know.

like not necessarily pious but like pure virginal British girl who's obviously judgmental because she's British who is like, you know, scolding the, you know, flippant and slutty American girl and the American girl in response murders her by raping her and stabbing her to death.

That's that was the narrative that he

imagined.

And, you know, and he was, he was really explicit about it.

Like he was standing up there in court saying Amanda was taunting and torturing Meredith while you know murdering her and saying, this is what you get, you little goody-two shoes.

Like, it was all just this thing that he imagined.

He also imagined that I was in this secret love triangle with the actual murderer, because, of course, he had to somehow account for this guy's DNA being all over the crime scene.

Into the media narrative.

I think that's what I thought about the case.

Like, that there was this crazy love triangle.

Maybe I wasn't, like, I wasn't, you know, I was like smoking weed in college.

I wasn't like.

Oh, that was another thing.

I was smoking weed, therefore, I'm a drug addict.

Yeah, and watched Amelie, which is not that good okay anyway but why do guys hate Amelie

sometimes you watch a French movie and they're like they say something and you read it as in a subtitle which is like

you know

they have their own language love is the most powerful drug and like you're like it sounds beautiful in their beautiful language

but if someone said that in English I'd be like shut the fuck up well and to your point though that like they're even just ways of saying things becomes ways of thinking things and I think that was also true in Italian culture, which also has a very like romantic bent, like French.

Anyway, Europeans just say the dumbest crap.

There's nice.

Says the American.

They do.

They say things like, do you know Bob Dylan?

And I'm just like, what are you, eight years old?

What are we ate?

Of course, he's my favorite.

Do you know Sergeant Pipper?

It's like, fucking.

They're too naive.

It's too much healthcare.

My understanding just from seeing headlines was that it was like a Fleetwood Mac situation.

What does that mean?

Like

two couples and then they're like swapping girlfriends.

Yeah.

I thought that that's that's what that's what I was like I was like yeah they were like there was like everyone was having sex this is the swinging 60s and then suddenly

what I kind of superficially saw like but I wasn't paying close attention to it because I was like focusing on crossovers, dunks, tackles,

strong men, gorgeous bodies.

Sure.

Of course.

And yeah, and I think that's also one of the sort of points the show makes is like there's this superficial narrative that people take in bits and pieces here and there and they get this like general vibe, but it doesn't like when you actually dig into what really happened,

there's so much evidence that reveals a very clear,

you know, what happened and like this like feeling this vibe that people have is like we'll never know what happened, but we know that it was something sexy is just false.

Yeah, we were talking on the phone yesterday, and this is something that I've been thinking about since researching for this, but we were talking about like, what would your case,

how would it be processed in 2025?

And like the sense I get is that there would be a massive GoFundMe, right?

You would have like fans, stands, if you will.

Then there would be a backlash saying like, if Amanda wasn't beautiful, would anyone care?

The third stage would probably be some sort of pizzagate, like,

conspiratorial.

That was that as well at the time.

So, what was that at the time?

Well, that at the time is this, like, idea that I was in this, like, secret threesome with the actual murderer, and that they were, like, so the idea was that

I was openly in a relationship with Raffaele, but secretly also in a relationship with this other, like, you know, local burglar.

Yeah.

And that

they were competing for my attention.

Yeah.

And then, and so raped my roommate for me to like out-compete each other and then hold her down while I stabbed her to death.

Like that was, that was the story.

And then the idea that like I was covering it up and that Hillary Clinton was like behind the scenes trying to get me acquitted.

Like there was, it was insane, the level.

Hillary Clinton didn't try to help?

I mean, I think one time she was in, like, she went to go visit Italy on a diplomatic thing, and somebody, like, asked, are you following the Amanda Knox case?

And she was like, we at the State Department are aware of the case.

And everyone took that to mean that she's going to, you know, take, you know, the FBI is going to show up and they're going to break me out of prison.

And no one was doing that.

Thanks for nothing, Hillary.

Oh, well.

Thanks for nothing, Hillary.

It was due process, I suppose.

I know.

So you were acquitted after four years and then there was a second trial.

Is that correct?

Yes.

So when this entire ordeal finally, when did it feel wrapped up?

Depends on what you mean by wrapped up.

So I was on trial for murder for eight years, and then eventually that was, the Supreme Court in Italy definitively exonerated me.

But

they also convicted me of a lesser crime, which was slander.

So they said that when I was interrogated

and I was coerced into signing statements, that I did so knowingly and maliciously, lying to the police, and therefore

I'm a criminal and I deserved three years in prison.

And that is a charge that I'm still fighting to this day, 18 years later.

When was the first time you returned to the United States?

That was after four years in prison.

What was it like for you?

What

were the initial lingering

feelings you had and what stayed?

And what did you have to work through?

So this was actually a really important part that we wanted to depict in the show because in a typical like true crime biopic, it's just like a courtroom drama.

But Monica and I, so again, Monica Lewinsky, who worked on this project with me, really wanted to, yeah, she's amazing.

She, it was really important to us to show this like long tail, like this like this, the trauma itself that happened here has a tremendously long tail, and you're like forever altered by this traumatic experience.

So yeah, in those early days, and we depict this in the show, it's like even the mere ability to open a door just like took on all of this like symbolic weight.

And I was just, I marveled at like the banal,

the fact that I could open a refrigerator and choose what I wanted to eat.

The fact that I could go from one door to, I could go from one room to another without an escort.

But at the same time, I'm living under a tremendous amount of a new kind of pressure, which is that media pressure that I was a little bit insulated by from the, in the prison like I only ever encountered the media in the courtroom and now suddenly my house was surrounded yeah there were helicopters outside my house

so like it if and this like went on for years

I imagine there were stalkers I mean I imagine there were people that were like obsessed with you yeah you know I couldn't get a regular job I couldn't um I couldn't make friends I lived in hiding for another four years while I was still undergoing trial and And

it was really hard.

How did you heal from that experience?

How did you, I mean, you seem like a well-adjusted individual, I guess.

Thank you very much.

You're welcome.

Yeah,

by freaking

knowing my value and having that reasserted for me by the people I love.

Like, you know, when I first met, I would not be here if it weren't for my husband Chris, who I met.

I met

a very good Yeah, no, like he didn't, when we first met each other, it was right after I had been definitively exonerated.

So I wasn't facing prison time anymore.

I wasn't just like fighting to stay technically, you know, physically free.

And I suddenly was able to experience the world with a new sense of openness.

And he was one of the first.

people I made friends with afterwards.

I actually interviewed him for his debut novel that came out called War of the Encyclopedists.

And And so I wrote it.

Check it out.

Check it out.

Check it out.

Check it out.

It's a great book.

I like to say I wasn't sleeping with the man until after I read it.

My girlfriend's never listened to a single podcast or watched a single thing I've ever done.

And it's probably better that way.

Really?

You think that she would not want to?

If she watched this, I mean, she'd probably be like, what are you...

What are you bringing up Amelie so much for?

That's why you hate it.

Admit it's not that good.

I love that movie.

I will fight you.

How would you even like that movie?

It was the night that your life, I would hate it even more if your life got ruined the night I watched Amelie.

Amelie is the reason why I was safely in someone else's home instead of at home getting raped and murdered myself.

Amelie saved me.

So, yeah, Amelie is a good guy or a good lady.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She's annoying, but she's a good lady.

We can admit it.

Do you often think about what your life would be like

had this never happened?

I do.

And sometimes I worry that I would have been a

less valuable person.

Like, I do think that I carry with me,

like, before all this happened, I was annoying.

I was like an annoying Amelie person who nothing bad had ever happened to.

I was annoying.

We were 20, though.

I was 20, and I had like zero perspective about the world.

Everything was like a fucking Disney princess fantasy.

You weren't annoying.

You were figuring it out.

I was figuring it out, but so was Amelie, man.

There had to be a moment where, because obviously you were under such scrutiny when you got got back, where you wanted it to probably disappear from the public eye.

When was the moment where you wanted to return to the public eye?

Like,

how did you become confident or empowered enough to do that?

What factored into that decision?

12 questions.

Yeah.

14.

You want some more?

Yeah, sure.

Go for it.

What happens at the end of Omelie?

I forget the ending.

Maybe it's actually a good movie.

It's sweet.

She finds another quirky guy.

So there's a Manic Pixie dream guy.

Quirky guy means that he has a shady past, let's be honest.

He did some things in college.

He does take pictures of people and collect them.

Yeah, it's true.

Is she okay?

They seem very happy together.

No, okay, sorry.

This is not super relevant.

No, no, no.

It's not relevant at all.

What was your previous question?

The previous question was like, obviously, you wanted to disappear from the public eye, probably.

Sure.

And then what empowered you to re-enter public life?

So one of the issues was that, yes, I wanted to hide from public life because I wanted to just go back to being an anonymous college student and the world wouldn't let me.

Like I kept being followed around.

I kept like I couldn't go to class without people taking pictures of me and posting them.

So like becoming an anonymous person was not an option for me.

And I really struggled with that because I felt like there wasn't a good option for me.

I couldn't be a private person, but also as a public person, I was a pariah.

So what role do I have?

And I felt completely trapped.

And for a long time, like, I didn't know what to do.

I just got a minimum wage job, and I was like in a bookstore underground, literally underground, and I had no idea what I could do.

And again, it wasn't until I was writing, you know, I was writing for a local newspaper at the time under a pseudonym.

The Stranger?

No, not The Stranger.

The Stranger wrote really bad shit about me.

But, you know what?

Was it a girl?

No, it was not.

Okay, never mind.

My son.

Sorry.

However,

the chief editor apologized to me recently for that.

Have you been back to Italy?

Well, that is something that the show shows is when I go back to Italy and confront my prosecutor.

But, you know, and you did ask me about that before, like, what's the deal with the prosecutor?

And one of the things that helped me sort of figure out this time, this time of my life where I'm still feeling really trapped was I was also struggling with the why of it all.

Like, why did this man look at me, a young woman with no precedent, no motive,

nothing, you know, connecting me to this crime?

Why did he look at me and think, there's my rapist and murderer like why and I just it just bothered me that this person who had harmed me probably believed that he was doing the right thing so how could that be possible and that's why I reached out to him was to ask him did he apologize did you get well they're not going to spoil the show for you have to watch the show I mean it's like

it's eight episodes before I saw Titanic I knew that it was going to crash okay well you know I'm going to ask you to restore it no I mean like

well I guess how can I ask in a way that's not a spoiler alert?

Okay, yes.

The way you can ask, it's not a spoiler alert.

Did it give you closure, right?

Did it make you feel

better or whole again?

Yeah.

And in a really, really surprising way.

That was professional.

That was a good thing.

Yeah, you're a good spin.

Yeah, no, sorry.

I totally missed you.

That was a nice one.

Yeah, yeah.

Very profesh.

No, that's.

So go ahead.

Yeah, no, it was like when I figured out that my well-being didn't depend on him giving me what I needed, which was acknowledgement and

like a mea culpa, like as soon as I realized that like my

well-being didn't depend on his choices anymore, it depended on my own, then I realized that like, okay, what can I do?

What can I choose to do in this moment that will, that speaks to who I am and what I really believe?

And what that was, was giving him the thing that he didn't give me, which was the benefit of the doubt.

And I

said a lot of things, which included defending myself, but which also included acknowledging his humanity and

his belief that he was doing the right thing at the time.

And so no one wants to believe that they're like evil.

That they're the bad guy.

And he made me the bad guy, but I didn't turn him into that.

Did you want to knuckle sandwich him ever?

No, I'm not a knuckle sandwich person.

You want to knuckle sandwich him?

No.

Really?

No, I think

instead what you find when you actually sit down and listen to somebody without judgment is that

they become fragile.

And

I can't hold this fragile person.

He is a person

who is struggling himself with his legacy and with his decisions.

And I have sympathy for that.

So no, I...

I guess, yeah, it's pretty inspiring what you're saying right now, because you have to recognize he's someone that kind of ruined your life, but you recognize him as a human being, I suppose.

Yeah.

It's not like that difficult a thing, but everyone says, like, oh my God, how did you do that?

And it's like, well, it's the truth.

Like, the thing that concerns me is not the easy story where it's like, he's a fucking bad guy who did a fucking bad thing.

That's the easy story.

The more true story.

It's also not how life works also.

No, it's not how life works.

And if you really want to be an effective person in the world, and if you really care about the truth, you have to acknowledge that everyone thinks they're the hero of their own fucking story.

And like

he believed he was the hero.

And now he's being confronted with

the fact that I'm not the monster that

he thought I was.

And now he has to reckon with that.

And I have great sympathy for him.

Well, first of all, you just did a spoiler alert entirely.

Ah!

But no, but in reality that's probably accomplished your goal.

Like of what you were seeking to do is just make him grapple with the fact that you are forgiving

like three-dimensional human being.

Yeah.

As our Lord and Savior, Mr.

JC.

Sure, yeah, well and to your point, like he's a spiritual person and I think that he had a spiritual experience.

Yeah.

You were being Christian.

I guess so.

You out-Christianed him.

I guess so.

I Jesus jiu-jitsued him.

Dude.

No, I mean, I find that incredibly inspiring, what you just said.

It's genuinely.

But that's how I really feel.

I mean, like, again, like, and I think that's why this story is super relevant today, where we find ourselves factioned by alternative realities and misinformation, and there's this like,

like, this great resistance to the idea that we could ever find common ground.

And it's like, I think people are really cynical about finding common ground and I want to push back on that notion and say actually

like one we should stop just trying to find fault and with each other and stop trying to like find reasons to hate each other like I'm so I'm so tired of people like finding reasons to be mad about something that is like so inconsequential like I've had something happen to me that I genuinely had every reason to like hate the entire fucking world because of it.

And like I chose not to because that's not the best way to live your life.

And like I

have a lot of, like, I

want to push back on this notion that like, to be righteous, you have to be angry.

You don't.

What is the sensation of seeing your life dramatized?

How do you process that?

And how involved were you in the development of that narrative?

Yeah.

Well, because this is not the first time that I have been turned into a dramatization, right?

This is just the first time that I've ever had a hand in it.

I've, you know, there have been lifetime films, and there was the Matt Damon film and Steelwater.

Yes, I watched it on a plane.

Yeah, what'd you think?

I didn't connect that, actually.

That was.

Oh, yeah, they were advertising it as this is the Amanda Knox story, but slightly different.

And of course, the Amanda Knox character is at least indirectly responsible for her roommate's death.

So it's just like

perpetuating this

sex narrative of, oh, they were in a sex triangle thing.

It was just, it was irresponsible.

And

so, anyway, so like this, this came about because Monica reached out to me.

She's already done, you know, impeachments.

She executive produced that.

And she wanted to, I guess, you know, be the, help me be the next person who gets to tell my story in this way.

And this time around, it was really interesting because I've always had this like negative connotation with the idea of there being a doppelganger version of me out there.

It's always been a negative doppelganger.

Grace Van Patton, give it a Grace Van Patten

is incredible.

She is so

talented.

So talented, and she dimensionalizes all of these aspects of me so that it's not just this cartoon character.

And you formed a relationship with her when she was developing the character?

Yeah, sure.

I mean, I was involved from the whole process from casting to breaking the story to, I co-wrote the final episode with the curator and showrunner KJ Steinberg, who I have to give all the credit to because

she didn't have to involve me so much in the creative process like she could have just taken it and been like okay sure good job you're an executive producer but I'm gonna do my thing like she really involved me the entire way forward and I'm really grateful that she she mentored me really through this process so yeah I was there on set I was watching all of the different cuts of all the different episodes

and of course I've been promoting the hell out of it because I believe in it it's a good show is is were there are there any moments where it's just seeing like you're revisiting a trauma there?

Like

you're watching it.

Oh, yeah, over and over and over again.

Yeah, it's got to be difficult for you to process.

It was difficult.

I think

because I'm finally executive producing a project, I felt a great responsibility to get it right.

The good thing was, though, is that

I was in a warehouse full of hundreds of people who I deeply felt also were

very concerned about getting it right.

Yeah.

And that made me feel so safe and supported.

And

so, like, for instance, the interrogation scene is it's in episode two.

Have you seen it yet?

Have you watched it?

I watched the pilot episode.

You watched the pilot episode.

So, okay, so watch the second episode tonight

tonight.

Yeah, yeah.

But the one that is available right now is the second episode.

And then next week, there's another episode that comes out.

But yeah, so you can see this interrogation scene, which was filmed over the course of two days, 10 hours a day from every different angle, and the psychological journey that

Grace as me goes on, the psychological journey of her interrogators, it's such a nuanced thing and it's not like the way that they depict it in law and order TV shows.

It's not like it's way more complicated.

Again, all of these stories are way more complicated and nuanced.

And so for me, I was watching this, which was the worst experience of all, being interrogated, was far worse than like being convicted, like all of it.

That was the one moment where I was made to feel utterly insane and like I did not know what was true or not.

And I was so scared

and so alone and trying to communicate in a foreign language.

It was very, very scary.

And getting that scene right was...

I knew it was a challenge because I was the only one in this entire warehouse who knew what it was like.

And yet they had done all this incredible research.

they had talked to all of these people and came together and made it and I wept with relief at the end because we had gotten it right that's beautiful so it's really good and I'm I look you'll have to text me how you how you react to it I will yeah I mean give me the play by

I'll live text yeah I love it

this reminds me of a certain

certain amélie

yeah there you go there are amélie like there's an homage to Amélie in this show did you notice that already from the pilot it's just in French okay No.

What do you have against French?

I don't know why.

No, I'm just kidding.

I love French.

I was just in Marseille.

Yeah, right.

That's right.

It's kind of.

I think I understand you now.

You hate love things.

Like you, everything you love, you like.

The only thing I hate is myself.

Which means you love yourself the most.

Someone just felt hurt.

Someone just felt hurt.

How long have I known you?

I took you to a Drake concert when you were 17.

It made me incredible.

I was 17.

No.

I mean,

I think,

what's one message you want someone to take away from the show?

I guess in conclusion, let's say.

Yeah, sure.

So I think that...

I think that the experience that I went through while it is very extreme is actually a more universal story than people give it credit for.

And the universal story being that life is going to come at you, and even if you do everything right, something bad is going to happen to you and at that point you have a choice.

If you can survive that bad thing that happens to you do you let do you let it have a say over who you become or do you have a say over who you become?

Do you take ownership and how do you do that?

And I think that

I've learned to do that in my life and it's come through a lot of struggle and a lot of obstacles, but like it is absolutely possible and I believe in that.

And so I just want, I would like people to come away from this series feeling very hopeful.

I think that's a perfect place to leave it, guys.

I mean, I think that's, I find that,

I really appreciate you coming on.

I find that incredibly inspirational.

Check out the show.

Yeah, thank you.

Check out the show.

And check out the podcast.

Yep, Hard Knox.

The show is called The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox on Hulu.

Hard Knox.

Check out Amanda at Comedy Clubs All Over America.

You're going to be going on tour.

How much time do you have?

How much material do you have?

I did an hour.

You did an hour?

Yeah, I I did an hour.

Just bit, bit, bit, bit?

Boop, boop, boop, boop.

Or what?

You did some alt comedy style stuff?

I mean, sure, like, I mix it up with some stuff that makes you laugh, it makes you cry.

Do you do you call your dad and like play a prank on it, like a prank call?

No, but one of my favorite things is when my dad is in the audience and I start telling sex jokes.

Really?

Yeah, it's hard.

How does he react?

Boo!

No, he's so sweet.

He's very supportive.

Anyway, thank you so much for coming.

Yeah, thanks so much.

And thank you guys for

coming.

Thank you, Pandora.

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