An NBA Roundtable With Eddie Johnson and Justin Termine

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Speaker 1 We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network. I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night.
We did Before Sunrise, a 90s classic.

Speaker 1 You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 We have our friends at FanDuel who every Friday, 30 on 30 is happening. We have a 30-on-30 profit boost token on Fridays.

Speaker 1 where you can boost any 30-plus point score or 30 on 30 special bet on this Friday's slate slate on FanDuel. You know what? You know why this is good for this week? Because we have the all-star snubs.

Speaker 1 We have people playing who didn't make the all-star team who then try to take it out on whoever their next game is. Like Philadelphia play Endeavor.
Tyrese Maxey, ideal candidate.

Speaker 1 Toronto versus Chicago, Zach Levine, he didn't make it. He's probably mad about it.

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You know what else you can look for?

Speaker 1 We did that trade value

Speaker 1 podcast with Brasillo on Tuesday, where we hashed out the final list. I got his help.
I finally settled on a top 85. And then we ran it on the ringer.com today, and I wrote an intro for it.

Speaker 1 The fingers actually kind of worked. It's like

Speaker 1 1,200 words, but that's like 20,000 words for me. I mean, I can barely type.
But anyway, I wrote an intro. I had fun.

Speaker 1 And then we laid out the whole list. It's got stats.
It's got the money, all that stuff. So

Speaker 1 very excited about that. You can go read me on the ringer.com.
Yeah, you can read me.

Speaker 1 Remember those days? Coming up,

Speaker 1 Justin Termini and Eddie Johnson.

Speaker 1 who I call into their show all the time on Sirius. And they owed me one.
So they are coming on. We're going to talk basketball and it's next.
First, our friends from ProJam.

Speaker 1 All right, we're taping this late Thursday afternoon. I go on their show all the time.
All the time. And they owed me.
So they're coming on. Eddie Johnson, just the term.

Speaker 1 You can hear them on Sirius NBA every afternoon. And we're really here to talk about Eddie's finals pick, which was Minnesota versus Philadelphia before the season.
I looked it up.

Speaker 1 That finals pick is three games under 500, Eddie.

Speaker 1 Like, if it can't get over 500, do you just retire at the end of the year? Like, what's your plan?

Speaker 1 Well, my plan is I think Philadelphia is learning how to win without

Speaker 1 the best center in the NBA.

Speaker 1 I think they're learning to win without the best center in the NBA.

Speaker 1 One of the best small forwards in the NBA, he's been injured, Paul George. And if they're learning to win without them two, and those two come back and they're in the play-in,

Speaker 1 I think we might see a repeat of Miami of a couple of years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Justin, any comments on that one?

Speaker 2 Well, Bill,

Speaker 2 this is what i deal with every single day and i say a lot of stupid things and i still uh look like i'm i'm rather intelligent because of uh things like this from eddie i mean how many things did he get wrong there paul george one of the best small forwards in the nba yeah like seven years ago uh joel envy the best center of the nba yeah maybe if you took out what uh carl anthony towns joker uh if you took out wen binyama if you took out anthony davis maybe he's got a point and miami of a couple of years ago great point eddie i i think cleveland and boston and new york are shaking in their boots.

Speaker 1 That's amazing when Embiid was basically the MVP two years ago and he got injured. And so you're basically judging Embiid based on an injury and saying that those guys are better than him.

Speaker 1 I'll give you Jokic. I mean, those are the two top players, but anybody else you're putting above Embiid, you're basically using the excuse that he's injured and saying he's not good anymore.

Speaker 1 So you can go kick rocks. Are you in the matrix where Joel Embiid plays basketball games?

Speaker 1 Because we're living here on planet Earth when he's in street clothes every game. Well, I've seen guys.
Well, I think they're doing the right thing with him right now, Bill. I think to sit him out.

Speaker 1 Let him get 100% healthy. I think he's been trying to come back and he hasn't been 100% healthy.
I don't think he started the season 100% healthy and he's paid a price.

Speaker 1 And I think what they're doing right now is the right thing. Sit him out.
And guess what? If he can't play the rest of the year, I wouldn't play him. And I've said that on our show.

Speaker 1 And then that's when you have to suffer the consequences of having to wait another year. But for me, I think he needs to get 100%.

Speaker 1 Like some guys can get 90. He can't.
He's got to be 100. And I think that's what they're doing with him right now.

Speaker 2 Bill, when's the last time? I would say this to you. When's the last time, Bill, that a guy that was seven feet tall was having issues with his feet, was having issues with his knees?

Speaker 2 All of a sudden, he ended up improving, right? And they're getting better.

Speaker 1 In his 30s.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 I can't think of one. And something Eddie and I agree on is

Speaker 2 I think MB loves to play, right? And there's some stars that maybe don't love to play.

Speaker 2 We've had that debate with Jimmy Butler, who's like, I don't take the regular season seriously till after the all-star game. He's always missing games.
Like Eddie and I agree.

Speaker 2 He probably doesn't like playing the game that much. Enbi'd, I think, likes playing, but does Enbi'd like putting in the work that is required to play to stay in shape in the offseason?

Speaker 2 And I think that's on him.

Speaker 2 So you can't criticize him for being hurt all the time and having a bad body, but you can get on his case for not putting the work in in the offseason in order to condition himself appropriately.

Speaker 1 I agree with Justin, which won't be the last time in this podcast. Sorry, Eddie.
Um,

Speaker 1 but I was double-teamed a lot in high school and college, so it doesn't matter. And at times in the NBA, so I can handle it.
I'm fine. I guarantee you, I won't throw the ball away like some guys.

Speaker 2 Unlike Devin Booker, you're not going to complain about being double-teamed. Nice start to the pod here.

Speaker 1 I mean, not all-star Devin Booker.

Speaker 1 Embedded, a lot of wear and tear, bad injury history of big men over seven feet who hit their 30s and have been in the automobile shop a lot, shall we say.

Speaker 1 So I think if I'm Philly, I'm just terrified. One of the things I put up a trade value list today where I ranked the best trade assets in the league.

Speaker 1 And we did, I had 85 this year, and I had MB'd number 54 on the list. And a couple of people reached out to me in NBA circles and were like, you could have put him 254th.

Speaker 1 Nobody is trading for him in that contract.

Speaker 1 I'm not positive. I feel like it's gotten to that point.
But Justin, do you feel like,

Speaker 1 he even tradable at this point, or is it just like we have no idea what to expect with this dude anymore?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was talking about this the other day with Ryan McDonough, the former GM of the Sun, and he called it the worst contract in the sport.

Speaker 2 So, you know, he's thinking along the lines of you that nobody would deal for the guy. And I was like talking about it on the show with Sam Mitchell, he was filling in for Eddie here today.

Speaker 2 And we brought up like Jared Allen. I mean, you're in position to win a championship right now in Cleveland.
You think Cleveland's doing anything with Joel Lembeat if it was like for Jared Allen?

Speaker 2 No, they're going going to stay with jared allen even though he's nowhere as talented as uh as joel embiet so uh yeah i mean i think they're in a spot where who wants to be paying this guy 60 plus million dollars in 2029 when he's already got bad knees four years prior to that yeah i'm i'm on that line eddie but you you probably would bet on the talent Well, I would look at it more like this.

Speaker 1 And I said it. I said if he's injured, sit out and don't play.
But if you all are telling me that a team worked out Joel Embiid past his injury, and you all know that each team has its own ego.

Speaker 1 They always have, they think their trainers can get a guy right.

Speaker 1 So both of you all are telling me that if Joel MB went to a potential trade team and worked out for them and looked good in his workout, that they wouldn't trade for him. Are you all crazy?

Speaker 2 For $60 million plus dollars?

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 didn't the Lakers turn down Bill Watts? I think it's teams out there

Speaker 1 right now, it's teams out there right now. If they worked him out and they saw that he was healthy, they trade for him in a heartbeat.
So

Speaker 1 now I went from, I agreed with everything you said, Justin. I also agree with Eddie.
There's always a sucker out there who's going to talk themselves into it. We see it over and over again.

Speaker 1 I never would have thought the Clippers were going to give Kawhi an extension after he just kept missing the playoffs. And they're like, here, take this.
Like, we see it over.

Speaker 1 I never thought Zion would be able to get any sort of a multi-year anything, and he did. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 you're right. Or the Sons can make a trade under the second apron.

Speaker 1 People didn't think that. Some things can happen.
And you're right.

Speaker 2 There is always a sucker, and Phoenix probably would be the sucker, the way that they're going out.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's a fair comment. So there you go.

Speaker 1 Phoenix is the sucker at the poker table that all the other poker players are trying to keep at the table.

Speaker 1 No, no, stay two more hours. I'll go a step further.

Speaker 1 If the Boston Celtics worked him out and thought he was healthy, they trade for him. In a heartbeat.

Speaker 1 Do we not have a luxury tax anymore? I think the Celtics going the other way. Hey, maybe they'll give up Jalen.
They're not going to give up Tatum, but they trade for him. I hope that.

Speaker 1 If they worked him out and saw he was healthy, they'd trade for him. In a heartbeat.

Speaker 1 Without a doubt, they would. Yes, they would.
If I had to make my, they'd be crazy enough to trade for him list.

Speaker 1 I think Golden State would do it just because I think Golden State right now, it's not Hail Mary time for Golden State, but they're like, it's third and 13, third and 15.

Speaker 1 And I think they just need to do anything. Phoenix is definitely, if Phoenix could turn Beal and Embiid, they would do that.
No, we wouldn't do that. We wouldn't do that.
We wouldn't do that.

Speaker 1 We wouldn't. What are you talking about? We wouldn't do that trade.

Speaker 1 You wouldn't trade Beal for Embiid?

Speaker 2 That one I actually agree with.

Speaker 1 No, we wouldn't do it.

Speaker 1 For Bradley Beale? We wouldn't do it.

Speaker 1 Did something happen with Bradley Beal professionally that I'm missing? We wouldn't do it. I'm just kidding, man.
I'm just kidding. All right.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 Speaking of of the Phoenix Suns, the All-Star rosters came out today, and I had surprisingly very few quibbles. I will get to my one quibble.

Speaker 1 But I did notice that the great Devin Booker, who we're on a lot of texts with Eddie, where we have to hear about the virtues of Devin Booker and how great he is, did not make the all-star team.

Speaker 1 Your defense, Eddie.

Speaker 1 No, he didn't.

Speaker 1 I think he should have, look, put it this way. I think Norman Powell should have made it from the Clippers.
Even on my pregame show for the Suns the other day, I didn't pick Debbie.

Speaker 1 And it wasn't that he wasn't worthy. It was a number of players that were out there that should have made it.
Kyrie,

Speaker 1 obviously Norman Powell.

Speaker 1 You had guards out there that were worthy of being picked.

Speaker 1 And I felt record, as Justin knows, I always lean toward record.

Speaker 1 And I thought Kyrie should have been the one picked. I do.
I think based on what he's done without Luca, I think that's that's all-star level.

Speaker 1 Even though James Harden is playing an unselfish brand of basketball and he's changed his game a lot, he's shooting, what, low 40s from the field.

Speaker 1 I just don't see how he made it over Norman Powell and over Devin Booker. Like, I thought one of those two with Kyrie

Speaker 1 to me,

Speaker 1 you know, and obviously I had Jalen Williams in that group because I thought people wouldn't pick him. uh should have made it.

Speaker 1 So, you know, look, I'm not surprised that Devin didn't make it. He got off to a slow start this year.
And the record is right there in the middle of the pack of the West.

Speaker 1 And so you're vulnerable when you're in that situation. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I actually, Bill, agree with Eddie on Norm Powell. I thought he should have made it.
And, you know, listen, Eddie says a lot of crazy things that are absolutely ridiculous.

Speaker 2 Something I said at the beginning of the season that I owe an apology is to the Clippers because I killed them, as did a lot of other people.

Speaker 1 It's worked out perfectly.

Speaker 2 And Norm Powell, like at the beginning of the season, said, you know, that it's addition by subtraction. Well, he's taken advantage of it.
I think he should be an all-star.

Speaker 2 And then on the Devin Booker front, like, you know, Eddie, I think, broke it down fairly right there.

Speaker 2 He probably didn't deserve to be there, but it is kind of a major knock on his legacy because this is a guy I feel like is talented enough where he should be there every single year.

Speaker 2 There's really no excuse for him not to make all-star teams. And now it's two of the last three years where he hasn't made it.

Speaker 2 And you look at a guy like Eddie and myself and you fight about Jason Tatum. Say what you want.
Not only does he make the all-star team every single year, he also makes first team all-NBA every year.

Speaker 2 Then you have Devin Booker, who should be maybe in the same category as him or slightly behind, and he's missing out on stuff like this. I mean, that's a bad look, I think, for Devin Booker's resume.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 so I go both ways. First of all, I don't like the word snub with the all-star game when we have a lot of good players.
Right.

Speaker 1 If you go back 20 years, which I wrote about in the trade value intro today, like we, we didn't have a crap load of talent in like 2007. So if you got snubbed from the all-star game, you can feel it.

Speaker 1 Now we have so many good players. Like I, the most surprising one was Kyrie, more surprising than Booker.

Speaker 1 I didn't like the thought of having two sons all-stars when they're a 500 team, but I think Kyrie, what he's done without Luca and the fact that he's just day to day, night to night, showing up, carrying them, I thought he should have made it.

Speaker 1 That was the biggest snub to me. I don't understand why we had all these centers.

Speaker 1 I have no idea why Shangun, if you're going to have four centers, how does Shangun make it over Sabonis? But then, Eddie, the other side of it is I do like when they reward the guys on winning team.

Speaker 1 And it's like, yeah, I get it. Houston should have an all-star.
Yeah, and I've always said that. I've always said that.
So Shangoon makes it over Sabonis. I get it.

Speaker 1 But I don't understand the Kyrie part. And I would have Kyrie over Hardin.

Speaker 2 Let me just say this about Kyrie real quick, Eddie, is like, don't forget who's voting for this stuff as well.

Speaker 2 How many times did Kyrie give coaches throughout the course of his career a hard time, bail on teams,

Speaker 2 get coaches fired? So I wouldn't be shocked if, you know, some coaches look at that and they go, oh, well, Steve Nash gets fired because of the attitude issue.

Speaker 2 He gives Brad Stevens a really difficult time, you know, Ty Lou, just the different coaches that he's had run-ins with. I think that kind of factors into some of this stuff as well.
Well,

Speaker 1 I think a lot of stuff goes into it. I do.
I think teams competing with one another, all of that. I think it does.
When you just give the coaches the vote,

Speaker 1 you know, attitude can come into play.

Speaker 1 So I'm not shocked by any of that.

Speaker 1 For me, I think personally, you know, Devin is going to, I should focus him in the second half of the season. So definitely a disappointment for him.
I know he's not happy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's.

Speaker 1 And so being not happy, he would like to think that he's going to just ramp himself up even more. Yeah, there's long memories with the voting.
I think that's a really good point about Kyrie.

Speaker 1 I've actually like Kyrie was one of my least favorite basketball players. I've really appreciated the way he's turned his career around the last couple of years.
I Got to hand it to him.

Speaker 1 I thought he acted like a pro last year. I thought he showed up, and that's all we ever wanted from him.
You know what?

Speaker 1 Really, what it is, is now we're seeing what his teammates have been saying, but we didn't believe it.

Speaker 1 But he also wasn't showing. When you're not playing basketball, when you're, I know, you're acting erratically and giving weird press conferences.
But his teammates still loved him.

Speaker 1 Like, you didn't hear his teammates get on him. Like, so, so, I think think what we're seeing now is what the full beauty of Kyrie, right? Without the stuff that was going on

Speaker 1 because his teammates in the locker room, man, you talk to, you listen or you watch. I mean, dude, paying guys fines.
Like, I mean, it's just stuff like that that he does that a lot of stars don't do.

Speaker 1 I 80% agree, but even Kyrie last year was like, yeah, I acted like a jerk. There's some things I would take back.
Like he admitted it.

Speaker 1 i totally agree he did i got on him i mean i got on him totally during the covet situation and all of that but what i'm saying is the things that i've heard about him is he's a great teammate like and and so now we're able to see it and not worry about the other stuff yeah right i wouldn't say it was all Yeah, I wouldn't say that was all on the media.

Speaker 2 I mean, Jalen Brown gets along with him now. He didn't do that when he was in Boston.

Speaker 2 I thought one of the worst things that I saw from a teammate, and I think the worst thing on his resume, is at game seven of the Eastern Conference finals when he's hurt and he's not sitting there supporting his teammates when he was claiming that he was a leader.

Speaker 2 That wasn't a good teammate. So, yeah, people are speaking of him highly now.
I don't think it's been that way all the time because Jalen Brown didn't get along with him in Boston.

Speaker 2 Marcus Smart had his run-ins with him in Boston, as did other teams.

Speaker 1 Everybody has run-ins. Come on, but I just think that was more team-oriented attitude from Kyrie than his teammates.

Speaker 1 And that's why Jalen, and that's why Jalen Brown is friends with him again because he understands that now. It wasn't personal with the players.
It was more directed at the team, I believe.

Speaker 1 What you just said about Kyrie and the teammates made me think of Westbrook and how Westbrook's teammates always loved him. Lakers accepted.

Speaker 1 I don't know, you know, although I do think a lot of the Lakers had him, but obviously it didn't work out well at all. But the teammates always swore by Westbrook, even when there was stuff about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, him stat padding, him trying to grab all the free throw rebounds, all that stuff. And all his teammates loved him.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's good to see those two guys uh did you play like with anybody like that

Speaker 1 where it's just like a beloved teammate guy yeah i mean oh what you mean that say it again now like a star that you played with who was like just everybody was all in and loved them charles charles was unbelievable uh you say what you want about charles and i know scotty has something out there about charles in regards to playing with him and all of that But Scotty just can't, he can't, he can't admit and say that Charles wasn't a great dude, man.

Speaker 1 He's one of the best teammates I've ever had. And they had him for a short period of time, but I've had some great teammates.
I mean, Nate McMillan, Gary Payton was a great teammate.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, without a doubt. That was my guy, man.
Like, you know, it's just, you know, he was brash. You know, he would say, but I love that about him.
But no, he was a great teammate.

Speaker 1 And so there's a lot of guys out there that were, but they never got the, you know, the respect or the admiration because of things that maybe was outside the game with them. And,

Speaker 1 but Charles, man, that dude, man, I'm telling you, he's one of the best teammates I've ever had. So, the worst teammate you've ever had is Justin.

Speaker 2 No, that's fine.

Speaker 1 I didn't have any bad teammates, worse teammates, but I'll tell you this. And he's not here anymore.
And so

Speaker 1 let me crap on the guy.

Speaker 1 I've crapped on him when he was alive, and I even crapped onto his face because he was just a surly guy.

Speaker 1 But Quentin Daly, like Quentin Daly was an unbelievable basketball player, he scored 15 points in eight minutes. Yeah, but he was just always in a bad mood.
He's just moody, and it just bothered me.

Speaker 1 And he and I, we butted heads all the time in Seattle, man, when he was there. But he might have been the most surliest teammate I've ever been around.

Speaker 1 But you wanted him in the game because he could score quickly. And that was fascinating about him.

Speaker 2 On an unrelated note, by the way, Bill, he just surpassed Larry Bird as my favorite player in NBA history.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 For the East snubs, if you want to call them snubs, they took four guards,

Speaker 1 three forwards, really no center. And the one that jumped out to me was Maxie, but I also wouldn't have put him ahead of Garland, Dame, Hero, or Cade.
So I was actually fine with the entire East team.

Speaker 1 The 12 guys they landed on, I thought were the 12 all-stars. Do you have a counter?

Speaker 2 What about your guy, Jalen Brown? Now, I know it's hard to find another front court guy, but I mean,

Speaker 2 here's why I think Jalen Brown's worthy is I actually do think like the year before, you got to take that stuff into account, like reward winning from the, and I do that, you know, people don't agree with it.

Speaker 2 I think it factors into the MVP race. How many times can you vote James Hard in the MVP when he falls flat in the postseason every year? Then he comes back, he dominates the regular season.

Speaker 2 But so I see like rewarding Jalen Brown for what he did last year. I don't think Jalen Brown's played in an all-star level this year.
Do you?

Speaker 1 I 100% do not.

Speaker 1 And I got to say, I was a little surprised he made it, but I also understand why they made it because of the whatever the winning attitude was with how the selections happened this year.

Speaker 1 I think they wanted two salts. I think if you weren't watching game to game and just looking at the stats and, you know, the fact that he's been durable, I think.

Speaker 1 I think people like us that have watched a lot of the games like, man, he hasn't played that well for a month.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Eddie and I have done like the stats on this and it's something I don't have them in front of me but if you go through like basketball reference and look at all the numbers amongst the eight rotation guys meaning the five starters plus horford plus hauser plus peyton pritchard he's like dead last in a lot of the field goal percentages yeah uh he's dead last in like the three-point percentages he's dead last in all the advanced analytics it's been a tough year you just hope that it flips once yeah postseason but but here's the thing uh does it carry forward yes it does dude was mvp of the conference finals and mvp of the finals.

Speaker 2 That's why I'm agreeing with you.

Speaker 1 He agreed. Yeah, he should be.

Speaker 1 I'm not hating. He's not in the all-star team.
I mean, that's all. We've had some great players, didn't have great years,

Speaker 1 but he won a title last year. He's got those two accolades.
It's going to be hard to keep him off an all-star team now.

Speaker 1 And well, the bigger thing is there was no guy that, oh my God, like, I think if Jalen Johnson had been healthy the whole year and was healthy now, I think he would have to go to the house for his money.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would agree with you there. I think he would have given him a run for his money.
I'm happy Garland made it. I think Cleveland deserved three on that.
And I truly do.

Speaker 1 I think it was even between he and,

Speaker 1 you know, and Donovan Mitchell in my estimation. I'm happy for Mobley because he could have been the odd man out.

Speaker 1 I felt like he Mobley had to make it. Yeah.
Like, but to me, Mobley and Jaron Jackson were non-starters. They had to be in the team.
Yeah. The two-way stuff they're doing on really good teams.

Speaker 2 And I feel good for Hero because that's been a mess down there. And

Speaker 2 he's on the trade market every year. Like, talk about like Miami and the way they treat their stars.

Speaker 2 And all these guys are pointing, like, Paul Pierce is pointing to like the way they treat Jimmy Butler. How about the way they've treated Tyler Hero?

Speaker 2 Every single year, he's on the trade market, and they're just like putting him out. We'll trade you for Dane, we'll trade you for Donovan Mitchell, we'll trade you for Kevin Durant.

Speaker 2 Uh, and I never viewed him as an all-star, and for him to make it, I think that's huge. So, I feel good for him.

Speaker 1 It helps Miami, too. It really helps Miami that Tyler Hero made it because it kind of justifies that why they changed their offense and kind of went away from Jimmy as much as they used to.

Speaker 1 Especially at crunch time, which I think was the thing with Jimmy. Like, if you watch Miami,

Speaker 1 basically everything last three minutes was revolving around Hero. And I don't know if Jimmy was a giant fan of it, but.

Speaker 2 And think about what that says about Bam. I don't even think anybody's looking at Bam and saying that he's a snob.
He just hasn't been good this year at all.

Speaker 1 I don't know what that's the big, I mean, that goes to the, you guys have talked about this a bunch, but the post-Olympics, what happened to some of these guys? Why did it take so much out of them?

Speaker 1 Bam's the weirdest one one because his offense just went sideways. We're going to take a break, and then I want to talk about the Butler trades and the Fox trades and what we think is going to happen.

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Speaker 1 So we talked about Jimmy Butler before, and it seems like Golden State. We're taping this.
It's six o'clock Pacific time right now, Thursday.

Speaker 1 Seems like Golden State is going to be the team if there's a move, unless there's some surprise out of nowhere team. And I was looking at impossible trades, and

Speaker 1 I think Wiggins has to be in it because there's got to be some sort of fat salary, and it's either Wiggins or Draymond. I just don't think they're going to trade Draymond.

Speaker 1 I just think that's Steph, that's Steph's guy. That's just like, he's over here.
You can't touch him. But it would have to be Wiggins.
I think it has to be Schroeder because he's an expiring.

Speaker 1 And then there's a Kaminga piece to it where Kaminga, if Golden State doesn't want to pay him,

Speaker 1 and it could potentially be Wiggins, Kaminga, and Schroeder, and maybe like whatever else little small thing needs to come in. So there's two separate questions here.

Speaker 1 Is that a lot to give up for a guy who's been unhappy for a year?

Speaker 1 And then also, if you're Miami, you might actually be pretty good down the stretch if you turn a guy who's not really playing at all into Wiggins, who's looked really good the last couple of weeks and most of the season, Kaminga coming off the bench and then Schroeder at point guard.

Speaker 1 It's a lot. I just think it's a lot.
I think Jonathan Kaminga could be the next butler. Who knows? I think he's just that good.
I just think he's raw still.

Speaker 1 I think he sometimes gets out of character of what he is at this present moment.

Speaker 1 But would you pay him? Because you're going to have to pay him next summer. So, what's he worth? Yes, I think he's that good, man.
I do.

Speaker 1 I think from the look, think about it, from how he's had to evolve as a player, like with Steph and Clay. You know, not, you're not taking shots early in the shot clock.

Speaker 1 You're not trying to dribble it up on the break and be creative. You couldn't do all of that.
You can get a little bit of it done now because Clay's not there.

Speaker 1 But just based on what I've seen from him this year, I just don't think they want to give him up. And if they do, I think it's going to pay a price because Butler's what?

Speaker 1 I mean, what, three years, maybe four at the most left? And you got a young player in Kaminga. I think Miami, if they could do that deal, they jump all over that.

Speaker 2 But what's the point of keeping Kaminga if you're not going to play him or if you're going to yank him around like Steve Kerr's done? Like if he doesn't play him.

Speaker 1 Or if you're not going to pay him.

Speaker 2 Yeah, or if you're not going to pay him. And then like the flip side with Wiggins, though, is I wouldn't want Andrew Wiggins if I got to pay him $30 million this year.
I got to pay him 30 next year.

Speaker 2 I got to pay him 30 after that, if he picks up the option.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm not crazy about Andrew Wiggins because to me, he just like, you know, it's the same reputation he had, you know, when he came into the league.

Speaker 2 He just floats in and out of games outside of the 2022 title run. I mean, Steph doesn't have a number two.

Speaker 2 And that's the other thing is I like, I don't agree with what's going on, Bill, in Phoenix, but at least like, I don't think it's going to work. At least they picked a direction.

Speaker 2 Like at least they know what they want to do.

Speaker 2 Golden State's like, all right, well, we want to be in with Kaminga for the future, but we want to be, you know, we want to compete right now with staff, like either go all in or just blow the thing up and start the rebuild.

Speaker 2 I don't agree with like trying to.

Speaker 1 There's no blow up, though. They don't, Curry is the only real trade asset they have.

Speaker 1 You know, I don't know what else, what the other move is. They almost got marketing.
They almost got Paul George. And they're probably like thanking their lucky stars.

Speaker 1 Neither of those trades happened because they would have given up everything. They're being fooled right now, I believe.
That's what it is.

Speaker 1 I think they beat Oklahoma City and then all of a sudden they think, oh, man, all we need to do is just add something. So they have a conundrum conundrum right now.

Speaker 1 And the only reason they're going to keep winning games like that is because of the coaching of Steve Kerr, because of the greatness of Steph Curry. That's why.

Speaker 1 So they'll beat good teams and you'll start to think, oh, okay, maybe, maybe we add somebody. I think it's a mistake.
I do. I've said that.
I think it's a mistake.

Speaker 1 I know Kirby will never give in to being traded, but I just think it's a mistake. I think their run is over with this group.
And,

Speaker 1 you know, but again, I just think that they're gonna win some games man they're gonna beat some teams and you're gonna say uh maybe they can do it again because they did it a couple of years ago so it's not like if they don't reach back to something and say we've done it before and i think that's part of their problem yeah but the problem is in 2022 when they did it the league was completely different i just don't think the league was nearly as good there was some injury luck with some teams that went sideways and they kind of snuck in.

Speaker 1 They rode Curry, who I think was at a slightly different point in his career too, in 22 versus now.

Speaker 1 I think that 22 team would not be able to do that in 25 with how deep the league is and how good it is. I agree.

Speaker 1 I'm torn on it because, Justin, you remember in the early 90s with the Celts when we had the big three and the question was always, how long do we keep these guys? Well, we can't trade.

Speaker 1 We got to keep these guys together. They won titles for us.
And the Celts were able to rebuild on the fly a little bit with. Reggie Lewis, who was a godsend, Brian Shaw, Dee Brown.

Speaker 1 They had Ed Pinckney. And they had this cool young old thing, and it was pretty good.
Like, they weren't going to win the title, but they were in the mix.

Speaker 1 Like, they, you know, they had two really good seasons, and then Bird and Michael's Health just couldn't hold up. I don't even think the Warriors are close to that level, you know?

Speaker 1 So, if I'm them, it's either a question of

Speaker 1 do we owe this to Curry because we're never trading him?

Speaker 1 So, if you feel, if you feel that way, then you got to do the Butler deal and give up whatever and try to hope that you catch lightning in a bottle with him or you got to think about trading curry and i just don't think they're going to do it i got a question for you i got a question for you bill yeah so say if golden state had two players in front of them to trade for derrick white or devin booker who you think they want

Speaker 1 well devin booker he's

Speaker 1 but why you why did i saw something where you had derrick white being a better trade chip no i had devin booker in the top 20 he was not you saw the wrong thing see this is what you get fooled by social media Well, I just want to say that.

Speaker 1 Explain to me. Okay.
All right. I had Devin Booker in the top 20.
Of course.

Speaker 2 Now, back to your other point before Eddie gave you some bad information.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 classic fake news from Eddie.

Speaker 1 Hold up. Put the camera back on Justin Termini.

Speaker 1 How dare you say that? The only reason I brought it up is because somebody told me that's what was said.

Speaker 2 That's not what I said.

Speaker 1 I told you we're Devin Booker. No, I didn't.

Speaker 2 I said he was behind derek light i might as well have just said bill's a massive said he was behind yeah

Speaker 1 behind

Speaker 1 that muscle mose i had him number 16. i did have him behind jalen williams and cade cunningham

Speaker 1 i did have him behind evan mobley and jaron jackson i think that's fair jalen william really do you well jalen williams on a rookie contract like would you rather pay jalen williams nine million a year that's the whole point of a trade asset so it's not about talent no it's about talent it's about time of their career it's about the salary.

Speaker 1 It's all those things. It's basically, you're telling me Phoenix wouldn't rather have Jalen Williams on a rookie contract than Devin Booker for 50 million a year.

Speaker 1 There's no way.

Speaker 2 Well, it's the same exact thing between you and Eddie. Sirius thinks you're more talented, obviously, but you would cost them more money.
So they settle for Eddie because he's making a lot less money.

Speaker 1 Does that explain it? Well, what makes you think that you would be the host and he would be the analyst?

Speaker 1 Because I'm a lot cheaper. We're both cheap.

Speaker 1 Hey, hey, Bill, you see the ego on this crazed animal? Like, he putting you in the analyst seat. Well, when you're in an analyst to determine, you can have an ego.

Speaker 1 It's the Waterboy show. It's two Water Boys.
Exactly. Wait, on Golden State, really quick.
Let's say Butler goes back there.

Speaker 1 Let's say they get a 50 cents, 40 cents of the dollar. Let's say it's just Wiggins, Looney, and Schroeder and some protected pick.
And that's a trade. Miami's like, please take them, give him away.

Speaker 1 And Butler flips a switch like he's done a couple of times this year to show everybody he still has it. Does that team intrigue you at all? Or is that just

Speaker 2 like I, no, it intrigues me a little bit, but not necessarily just because they're great, just because who in the West is dominant? Like, do you, how much faith do you have in Oklahoma City?

Speaker 2 As good as they are, we've never seen him win more than one playoff series.

Speaker 2 Shane Gildas-Alexander is still like a young guy who, as great as he is, hasn't really given us anything tremendous in the postseason. His check going to be healthy.

Speaker 2 You know, teams with size have beat him up. Dallas has their number.
The Lakers, I think, you know, aren't as talented. They match up well.
So, you know, anything is possible.

Speaker 2 But I think it's just because of the weakness of the Western Conference. I don't know what you guys think.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think the West is wide open. I do.
You got your talent at the top, but I think anything can happen.

Speaker 1 So that's why I think the teams in the West are going to be trying to be aggressive in the following week before the trade deadline to see if they can, you know, get that key player.

Speaker 2 And, Bill, you touched on this with Goldsbury a couple of weeks ago. I don't like, you know, this topic of like the West being better than the East.
That is not the case this year.

Speaker 2 The Eastern Conference is better because the teams at the top are better. Boston, Cleveland, New York are three of the top four teams, I think, in the entire NBA.

Speaker 2 There's one in the Western Conference, OKC. So, Cleveland, New York, Boston have to go through each other.
OKC doesn't have to do that. East is tougher than the West.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I look at it like ceilings, like your regular season ceiling versus your playoff ceiling. So I see a team like Houston, and I'm really impressed by them.

Speaker 1 I like a young team, kind of, kind of a weird collection of assets. They barely have even one all-star, but when you watch them, it makes sense together.
I don't know if there's another gear for them.

Speaker 1 If they're playing the same team six, seven times in two weeks, I think they'd be, they'd get easy.

Speaker 1 But when you think about like Boston, Cleveland, especially the Knicks,

Speaker 1 there's another level I feel like they can go. The question for me with OKC, because I think everybody's going to defend them the same way.
They're just going to trap Shea.

Speaker 1 They're going to send two guys at him.

Speaker 1 They're going to make Jalen Williams and some of these other guys basically have the ball in big moments, a lot like how people are defending the Celtics. The smart teams of the Celtics are

Speaker 1 trapping Jason at the top. They're sending two guys at him.
They really want Jalen Brown to decide the games now because he's not playing that well.

Speaker 1 And I just don't know if Jalen Williams can win four straight playoffs in a row for you. And how is Shay going to figure out how do I be regular season Shea when I'm just seeing this constantly?

Speaker 1 So I think the West is open as much as possible. Well,

Speaker 1 I think Oklahoma City is vulnerable because they're small. Even if they bring Chet and they have Hardenstein, I still say they're small because they're going to play small ball even with those guys.

Speaker 1 They're going to rotate to small guys. And I just never see that really working in the finals.
The Celtics, people looked at them. They weren't small.

Speaker 1 No, we actually came everywhere.

Speaker 1 jalen brown looks like a mini hercules people see these dudes up close they'll see how big they are and so it's a different animal but you brought up houston i'm telling i don't think houston's getting out of the west to the finals but i would bet money that

Speaker 1 boston wouldn't want to see them if they were on the other end of that because the one team i think matches up with them with physicality and a nastiness is Houston. Like, right.

Speaker 2 She saudoka the other day, knows all the weaknesses. I mean, they're attacking Jalen Brown, and he knows what Brown can do.
He knows how to defend Tatum.

Speaker 2 And, you know, so that's another thing in that matchup.

Speaker 1 Well, there's the Clippers game, I think, unfortunately, was a bad game for the Celtics long term because the Clippers coaching in that game was so smart.

Speaker 1 They basically laid out the blueprint or reminded everybody the blueprint of what to do against the Celtics. And Van Gundy was amazing in that.
Both of those guys.

Speaker 1 And now, like, Houston was basically doing a lot of the same stuff that the Clippers did in that game.

Speaker 1 And if you have big swings, you can protect the rim a little bit, and you just keep blitzing Tatum and making everyone else beat you.

Speaker 1 It's, I basically, what it's going to come down to is: can Jalen Brown get back to where he was last year? Because last year, we were arguing about 1A, 1B with Tatum and Brown.

Speaker 1 It's that argument's over. Like, it's 1-2.
And we need, can Jalen get back to 1B? He will.

Speaker 1 I think that I honestly believe, Bill, these guys aren't built to get deep and go repeat, repeat, repeat like it used to be, right?

Speaker 1 It's just something that the guys in the 80s and the 90s had that these guys just don't have. And it's not all their fault.
They make a ton of money, man.

Speaker 1 Even guys in the 80s and 90s, they had to push because they needed more money. Like they weren't even paid highly.
Like, so they had a reason to go for it every year.

Speaker 1 They needed that playoff money. Like these guys don't need the playoff money.

Speaker 1 like and so they have to be pushed and i think what's going to happen with boston is when it gets after april i mean not april march and it's they can see the end of it we're going to see the boston team that we saw last year i i don't i think jalen's going to ramp it up or tatum's going to ramp it up because now they can see the end so i am not down on boston haven't been all year i've made excuses for them because and and think of that i'm making excuses for teams you all love i'm not we're not down on them either i'm just yeah no i agree so with concern as far as the fatigue i don't even want to hear that as an excuse because i was so anti you know all those guys going to the olympics then they had to do abu dhabi so that's not like shocking to me that they're struggling but i hated the fact they went to the olympics that's why i can't stand the olympics and then and i know you love them bill i hate them because i think you know i don't i'm a patriot justin i'm sorry i'm sorry i care about my country yeah i care more about the celtics and my nba teams and denver and yokich doing well, but no, it drives me nuts.

Speaker 2 Like, Philadelphia fans should be irate that Embiid's not playing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but the thing that calms me the most is like what other team can give you what Porzingis is doing right now. So, like, as bad as other things are going, like, I was at that game last night.

Speaker 2 Porzingis, you know, 34 points. I think he had 29 in the first half.
If he's playing anything close to the level he's played at the last couple of weeks and stays healthy, to me, they're still easily.

Speaker 1 I mean, no, I think mean, for him, I'm saying, if he's healthy, they are a major problem. So for him, it's just staying healthy and how they use him.
Well, what if I said this to you?

Speaker 1 The 2025 champion will come from the East.

Speaker 1 I can push back a little bit on that because what I can say is, as what you all used to say about the West, it was top heavy. They had a lot of talent.

Speaker 1 And so by the time they got to the finals, they were tired.

Speaker 1 I can say the same thing with the East right now, and those three teams at the top.

Speaker 1 And just say, for instance, say, say, for example, Philly gets healthy, okay, and they win a first-round series, right? And all of a sudden, it's a problem. We're back in the Matrix.
It's a problem.

Speaker 1 I'm just making a point.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and goes with a win.

Speaker 2 Just say Philadelphia pushes Boston or Cleveland to like six games when typically it would be a sweep in the first round. Then you got to go play

Speaker 1 that the winner series. Just they pushed him.

Speaker 2 Yeah, say, for example, they end up like, you know, playing the Celtics in the first round. Like Boston plays Philadelphia.
They got to go six games when typically that's four or five.

Speaker 2 Then they got to play New York. That goes six or seven.
Then they got to play Cleveland, six or seven. Meanwhile, Oklahoma City's cruising through the West.
They're a little beat up.

Speaker 2 I mean, we've seen.

Speaker 1 By the way, what you just laid out was the reason the Lakers won all those titles in the 80s because they never had to play anybody. The East was just killing each other.

Speaker 1 And the Lakers are like, ah, we got to play the Spurs in the Western finals. No, they had to play some teams.
Stop, stop. Oh, no.
They didn't have to go through the Pistons. Stop there.

Speaker 1 You know, through the Sixers.

Speaker 1 Because they were talented. The Lakers were a talented team.
They were a dominant team. Just like the Blacks.

Speaker 2 And so were the Celtics, but then they had a hard road to get there.

Speaker 1 Just like the Bulls were a dominant team in the East, but it was teams that were good in the East.

Speaker 1 It was teams that were good in the East when the Bulls were running through the East. Okay.
It was

Speaker 1 that were good in the East when LeBron was running through the East. You always don't want to give that.

Speaker 1 Teams were good in the Eastern Conference. Yeah, yeah.
That's your worst point you've made. Yes, it was teams that were good because

Speaker 1 they run way to the finals. Yeah, because he was dominant.

Speaker 2 It was more impressive that the Celtics in the 80s went to four consecutive finals than LeBron in the Eastern Conference going

Speaker 1 in the 2000s. He was dominant.

Speaker 1 He was dominant. He dominated all those teams.
Those 80s Lakers had two rivals, both of whom flamed out immediately. The 86 Rockets, who were the absolute all-time kryptonite team for them.

Speaker 1 And that team implodes with drugs. And then the Mavs, that same era, Froy Tarpley stays healthy and they actually have to go through those two teams.

Speaker 1 As you know, I hate the Lakers. The luck that they had in the 80s was unbelievable with their opponents.

Speaker 1 How do you live in LA and you hate Club?

Speaker 1 I've come to grips with it a while ago. That's amazing.
I mean, you know, there's a lot to hate. That's like living in a 10,000 square foot house, but you hate the girl and she looked like a team.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're really, I mean, come on.

Speaker 1 I would lean toward the East for to produce our champion, but I'm also not tied to it for a bunch of reasons. One, all the stuff you laid out about how competitive it's going to be.

Speaker 1 But two, there's still some West teams. I'm not crossing off Denver at all.
I know they've had a goofy year.

Speaker 1 I'm just not crossing them off yet because of how good yogic is i'm just not no i'm not i mean i essentially you know what like i'm a little higher than i was on him a couple of weeks ago but uh like everybody's making a big deal about jamal murray all of a sudden waking up i mean he's been better than he was at the beginning he's been definitely 100 better we talked about him a month ago on your show and i was terrified that but he yeah but he's also not like a high level number two he's playing okay no but he's playing better he's playing better but he still needs to be better i mean a max contract all right justin terminal you say he's not a high high-level, but when they won the title, was he high-level?

Speaker 1 Absolutely. 27 games.

Speaker 2 So I thought he was better during

Speaker 1 the week and become high-level then.

Speaker 2 But we haven't seen it for a couple of years.

Speaker 1 Well, but we're seeing it now. And I think, again, like I said, I think.

Speaker 2 He's not true.

Speaker 1 He's been better, but he hasn't been great. But he's been pretty good.

Speaker 1 He's got 30-plus games left. So my point is where he is right now and how he's trending, he's getting back to himself.
I hope so. And Bill, I've never gotten off the bandwagon with Denver.

Speaker 1 He knows, Justin knows this.

Speaker 1 I'm not,

Speaker 1 they have too much talent. You all a couple of years ago said they had the best starting five in the basketball, and they still got those same guys.

Speaker 2 No, they don't.

Speaker 1 They still

Speaker 1 have containers. They turn Brown.

Speaker 1 Brown's actually probably better than Ken. Brown is outplaying Katani.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 They took away from the bench when they, like, people go, oh, they got rid of Katie.

Speaker 1 Now you're going back to Christian Brown.

Speaker 2 Christian Brown's better. Well, Christian Brown has to go in the starting lineup and take somebody off their bench.

Speaker 1 Justin, I hear what you say about the bench. I'm not arguing that.
But Christian Brown is a better player than Contavious Caldwell Pope, and he's showing it.

Speaker 1 That's fine.

Speaker 1 So now the bench is

Speaker 1 starting five is just the same five and better right now. The bench has to get better.
I agree. But the starting five that won a title, they're the same guys.
I'm not talking about it.

Speaker 1 The league is better.

Speaker 1 I mean, I just think it's so admirable for the very small market Denver Nuggets to patch together this team when they have so many final. Oh, no, that's actually Denver's a big city.
My bad.

Speaker 1 And they're owned by like a very owned by a guy who's married to the Walmart family, and somehow they can't get like a ninth or tenth man.

Speaker 2 And they're trading three second-round picks just to get rid of the contract they signed Reggie Jackson to. So now they have no assets to get better.

Speaker 2 So even if Jokic was whining like Anthony Davis or LeBron, they couldn't do anything about it because they have nothing to trade.

Speaker 1 No, congratulations. All Jokic needs is to get to the finals and does not have to play against Carl Anthony Towns, who owns his lunch.
Oh, stop it. Yeah, no, that's

Speaker 1 his lunch.

Speaker 1 He can't even score on Carl Cat.

Speaker 1 Can I lock him down twice? Stop. He locked him down.
He got in foul trouble yesterday. He got in foul trouble.
He took him out of the lineup. He had pedestrian numbers.

Speaker 1 Carl Anthony Towns is locked in.

Speaker 1 Can I lock him up? Can I ask you guys about one West team?

Speaker 1 I'm going to whisper this one. Clippers, is there something there?

Speaker 1 It's a playoff team? If Kawhi,

Speaker 1 Kawhi can actually start to look like

Speaker 1 I saw him the other day.

Speaker 1 He did a few things in that game that made me say, hmm. if he's back to that i mean he pushed the ball up the court and i mean he looked fast

Speaker 1 just laterally. Like, that's what I'm looking at.
And they're afraid to play him. And I get it.
They took

Speaker 1 a 28-minute, 28-minute limit. And it's like 28 minutes.
I was glad they did. I was glad they did because, you know, who knows? We might not have beat him the other night.
But, no, he looked good, man.

Speaker 1 That's all I'm going to say.

Speaker 1 But he's done this before.

Speaker 1 Because, Justin, they have Zubots who's turned into.

Speaker 1 Yep. Not an all-star center, but he was maybe in the borderline.

Speaker 1 Cardinal Powell. Yep.
Kawhi, all these role players. And I think they have a top three coaching staff.

Speaker 2 Exactly. You mentioned just about everything.
They can defend with the best teams in the NBA. Ty Lou to me.

Speaker 1 Really smart.

Speaker 2 You want to say, like, Eric Spolser is the best head coach? All right. Well, Ty Lou's right on his heels.
I think he's the second or third best head coach in the sport. So you're right there.

Speaker 2 I mean, a lot of us in the media are going to look like absolute morons if they make a deep run because we crushed them. But yeah, I wouldn't be shocked if they made a run up.

Speaker 1 See, Justin cares about that more more than we're not going to bat a thousand. We're going to get some stuff wrong.

Speaker 1 There was no sign, none, that the Clippers were going to be a possible playoff team slash defense.

Speaker 1 You were worried about Kawhi. It was Kawhi, but also they lost Paul George, who was important for them, and they replaced him with a bunch of dudes.

Speaker 1 And then when you watch them, the team makes sense. Derek Jones is a really good ad for them.
Yeah, he really is.

Speaker 1 And then you think like

Speaker 1 Kawhi comes in, all he's doing is taking Batum's minutes and some Terrence Mann minutes. It's like, this is legit.

Speaker 1 Even if he plays 25 minutes a game, Harden, I still feel like the right teams can take him out because he doesn't have the same burst that he did.

Speaker 1 Like, if he's going against like a Houston or a Memphis, like teams with young, big wings that can throw at him, I think it's hard for him to get his shots.

Speaker 1 But I'll tell you another thing that's, and I've talked about it before, but they have, Eddie, have you done a game at Intuit yet? Oh, yeah. Two.
They have a good three.

Speaker 1 They have a borderline home court advantage now, which is good. They've never had anything before.
They got a slow start. and I think it's just them getting familiar with their own court.

Speaker 1 But since then, they've been pretty good. I think they've only lost, what they lost four games early, and they've only lost four games since.

Speaker 1 No, that is a tremendous advantage. That wall is ridiculous, man.
I mean,

Speaker 2 you did see LeBron airball a free throw, I think, with the wall there.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah, no, I think that team's really interesting to me.

Speaker 1 The Spurs, if they got Fox, which we should talk about,

Speaker 1 just what I just, I want to watch this next two Wemby months because they're 20 and 24 right now, and somehow they're only five games out of the five seats.

Speaker 1 Well, that's the thing. It's probably a lot of picks.
Actually, let's talk about that. We'll take one more break.

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Speaker 1 Darren Fox, I was taping a pod on Tuesday with Rosillo, and then all of a sudden this trade thing came out. And I was like, boy, that's weird.
And it's like he has a specific team. Hmm.

Speaker 1 And then it turns out he wants to go to the Spurs. I haven't talked about this on my pod.
I know you've probably talked about it on your show, Justin.

Speaker 1 I had great career move by De'Aaron Fox trying to go to the Spurs. Like this is like trying to join the hit TV show that's going to be the number one show on TV for the next 10 years.

Speaker 1 Like it's, I get why he wants to do it. It's part they need somebody like him.
The question for me is.

Speaker 1 What is the timetable for the Spurs? Do you even need to do this now? What's the point of it? You have no chance to win a title.

Speaker 1 If he wants to play for you this bad, why not just wait till he's a free agent? Why am I giving up stuff for him now?

Speaker 2 He's trying to get out ahead of it, right? Because everybody's going to want to go there. So it's a smart decision by him if that's what he wants to do.

Speaker 1 Eddie, if Eddie could still play, Eddie would be like, I'm here.

Speaker 1 I'll stand in the corner.

Speaker 2 Every single player in the league should want that.

Speaker 2 All the broadcasters, like, you know, us, we should want to go down there and cover him and just like, you know, be their play-by-play guys because it's going to be fun for like 15 years where you get to watch that every single night.

Speaker 2 So like it's smart by De'Aaron Fox. Now, the question is, is it smart by San Antonio to go out there and get him? I mean, is that like, what is he? 27.

Speaker 2 So by the time Wembinyama is ready, you know, he's, and I think Wembanyama, I guess, is ready right now, but I guess the other pieces, because you need more than just

Speaker 1 Wembanyama.

Speaker 2 But like, is he even the guy that you think fits in perfectly with him? I mean, he shoots in the low 30s in regards to three-point percentage. You know, he's not a particularly high-level defender.

Speaker 2 He hasn't impacted winning in Sacramento. So I don't know if that's like my first choice, De'Aaron Fox.

Speaker 1 You automatically become a better defender with that dude behind you. Oh, of course.
You would be a better defender with him behind you. Right.
I mean, all you gotta do stay in the back.

Speaker 1 I don't know about that. And

Speaker 1 DeAaron Fox is so good at that. But here's where the fit is perfect.
And I brought this up the other day. When Fox with Sabonis was really good.
But the problem is they're both left-handed.

Speaker 1 Now you're coming off that screen

Speaker 1 with now Wimbinyama. Now he's going off to his right, and De'Aaron Fox is to his left.
It's a better pass. It's an easier, fluid pass.
It's all of that. And I think Fox is looking at that as well.

Speaker 1 A lot of times he and Sabonis kind of ran into each other a little bit

Speaker 1 because of that dynamic. But now, like this dude coming off left, and you got to agree, he's one of the best guys in the paint in regards to being a guard.

Speaker 1 And now he's got that size to really initiate stuff to i think that's one of the reasons why he's looking at it and i think he's the perfect blend for him you know and and i think even chris paul at times has a tough time with that in regards to him so you know because chris is a more like a right-handed guy as well so i think the nuances there man is just is going to be really good if he's able to get there plus fox was they were a two seed two years ago he was the best guy on that team so it's not like he teams haven't succeeded with him i guess guess the way I'm looking at it, the risk would be

Speaker 1 if we don't do this now, what if somebody trumps him? What if somebody else trades for him? What if we lose this opportunity? So then who are the other guys out there?

Speaker 1 Because they clearly need somebody like this. They need somebody, give them the car keys, let him run shit.

Speaker 1 And it's like you start looking around the league. Who else is it? Like Garland's not leaving Cleveland.
Garland was the guy to get last summer, and they probably should have tried to overpower them.

Speaker 1 Do you wait wait on Hope Maxi? Hope Philly just goes so far sideways that maybe they would just want a complete rebuild. You go through all the rosters, and he's kind of the

Speaker 1 best fit for what they need. And he probably will never leave because he's from Texas.
So he wants to be in Texas.

Speaker 1 And you want players on your team that want to be in a certain region, especially if it's San Antonio.

Speaker 2 Yeah, why would you leave once you get there? I mean, you're going to be winning. You're going to be playing on national television every week.

Speaker 1 Well, okay. But Penny Hardaway left.
Benny Hardaway and Shaq broke up. Safari Marberry left Kevin Gardner.
Well, that was the worst one.

Speaker 1 I'll never, I'll never get over that.

Speaker 2 That's right at the beginning of their career.

Speaker 1 Fox is now to play in Sacramento, lose a bunch of games, then get hooked up to Wembinyama.

Speaker 2 Not if he chooses to go there, but you were like rattling off names, Bill.

Speaker 2 Like Luca's a free agent in what, two years? All you hear about is Miami. Why is it only Miami that can get these guys to play?

Speaker 1 Oh, he culture. He culture is red hot right now.

Speaker 2 Like, but you know, you hear that name linked to Miami. Why can't Luca be linked to playing with Wen Benyama?

Speaker 1 Because that makes that makes Luca look like a loser, honestly. Like, he's just going to.

Speaker 1 This is the same shit.

Speaker 1 We make Turant already. I know, but LeBron shipped that for eight years.

Speaker 1 You need to stop. No, he went to Wade, it was one of the three best players in the league.

Speaker 1 Labum was the best player on the team until Wade figured it out and stopped trying to do everything the next year, and they won two back-to-back. How dare you even bring that analogy up? Wow.

Speaker 1 Wade was probably the third best player in the league. And the best player on the league

Speaker 1 at least in the finals. In the 2011 playoffs, he was the best player of the team.
Exactly. He wasn't chopped liver.
He'd already had a title.

Speaker 1 And Shaq wasn't chopped liver either. Wade don't sniff a finals victory back then if it wasn't for Shaq and Alonzo Mornin.
So you all.

Speaker 2 I mean, we agree with that. That's fine.
But he was still a top five player.

Speaker 1 So if you're San Antonio and you can trade for Fox, keep Castle, because Castle is just, I'm not even discussing him.

Speaker 1 Not discussing Wemby. And you can potentially keep Vassell.

Speaker 1 And then you add Fox.

Speaker 1 And I don't care.

Speaker 1 Take your pick. What picks do you want? Like,

Speaker 1 I would probably do it as long as it wasn't an insane amount of picks. I don't know what these teams are doing with all their picks.
If they can keep Soheim, they need to keep him.

Speaker 1 If they can keep him, man.

Speaker 2 Atlanta, they have Atlanta's pick, right, in the upcoming draft as well. So that's going to get more value because Jalen Johnson's hurt.

Speaker 1 So that's even more valuable. I really like that Atlanta team, too.
I thought they were like a six-seed kind of range sleeper and then they just can't get healthy.

Speaker 2 They beat the Celtics twice in Boston.

Speaker 1 They beat Cleveland. I think it was multiple times.
Because Trey's having a great year. He was a snub.
Let's just put it where it is. Trey was a snub.

Speaker 1 Trey Young was a snub because the way he's played, he's changed his game. He realized he's not Steph.

Speaker 1 He stopped playing like Steph. And he started playing like a point guard.
And he's had a very good year, man. And so I think he's he's a snub in the east as well

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 is the league more fun

Speaker 1 if there's a fox to san antonio trade this year i think it is we basically sacrificed sacramento as a playoff team and replaced them with san antonio what if they get chris paul

Speaker 1 sacramento yeah if chris paul was in the trade yeah

Speaker 1 you think sacramento could still patch it together they'd have an older team right with the rose and see

Speaker 1 they're dangerous so why'd you try to trade them why'd you trade him him from Phoenix?

Speaker 1 Why'd you sign off on that deal? I wasn't the GM. Telling somebody.

Speaker 1 Why are you blaming me?

Speaker 1 Remember that year when Eddie thought Yusuf Nurkic was good? We had to

Speaker 1 kindly remind him over and over again.

Speaker 1 Look, guys, obviously, you guys, I have to eat crow because you all can get on me based on what's going on. But I will say this.

Speaker 1 You know, do you honestly think that he was able to play the way that he can play? like he's a rebounder that's what he is

Speaker 1 yeah he's one of the best

Speaker 1 he should be on a lottery team he's one of the best he's one of the best rebounders

Speaker 1 and that's what he is i've never looked at him eating any more than that the the biggest problem for nurkic and i hope he improves it because it seems like he probably will get moved is he's just got to make i don't know what it is he's got to find out wherever a a pete new protege is and he just got to spend a whole summer with him eddie he's in his 30s it's it's not happening.

Speaker 1 Give up the guns. But that's a ground.
That's a ground. This is too much Nurkerge talk already.
Does he talk to you, Eddie, or does he only not talk to Budenholz?

Speaker 1 You're still talking to him? He's already packed. He goes to the Suns games and he has all his suitcases in case the trade happens.

Speaker 1 Well, obviously, it's not good when you're not playing and you're not talking to the coach. I can't even run from that.

Speaker 1 It's not good. But I will say this.
He's been very good on the bench over there. It hasn't been a negative.
Well, let's get it.

Speaker 1 20 million years. They said the bench.
Hey,

Speaker 1 other teams are watching. He still takes more free throws than the other teams are watching.
In all fairness, so he's doing it the right way. He's doing it right.

Speaker 2 In all fairness, even though he doesn't play, he still takes more free throws than DeAndre Ayton.

Speaker 1 I saw that stat. What is he at? 1.1? No, he might go back to Portland.

Speaker 2 The thing that ticked me off is Eddie and I talked about that on the show like two days ago. And then Stat News came out with that stat that day after we talked about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the culture.

Speaker 2 They stole it from us.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 He might be back in Portland, guys. You never know.
Eddie, can we go back to Webby for a second? What year did you enter the league? 85?

Speaker 1 81.

Speaker 1 81.

Speaker 2 The Celtics. You smartly drafted Ainge ahead of them.
Thank you, Red Harbor.

Speaker 1 Hey, Bill, you know this. That was the worst, worst draft the Celtics ever had.
Really was. Wasn't great.
They had a chance to draft me. I remember the story.

Speaker 2 They messed up. They drafted Ainge.
She made an all-star team. You never know.

Speaker 1 No, we messed up the other two picks, though.

Speaker 1 Cost you all another title, too. Oh, my God.
Bird would have put Eddie in the Hall of Fame. He'd be like Michael Cooper.

Speaker 1 Without a doubt.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. How did this happen?

Speaker 1 Bill, without a doubt, he would have.

Speaker 1 All right. So you've been in the league since 1981

Speaker 1 in various capacities. Have you ever seen anything remotely approaching Wemby in person? No.

Speaker 1 He's the biggest freak of nature I've ever seen. Now, I used to say that about Mark Eaton.

Speaker 1 I used to say it about Manupo, who obviously not the talent that Wemby is. But when you look at a dude like that, and I even said it one time about,

Speaker 1 you know, Joe Emby. Justin and I was in the summer league standing next to him, and I didn't realize how massive he was.

Speaker 1 But Wimby, no, I've never seen anything like that. I'm serious, man.
Look, when you can dump, he's in the warm-up line dunking flat-footed. Right.

Speaker 1 Like, I've never seen that. So when you're on the plane after a game, are all the Suns players and coaches just talking about him for the next half hour? You know what it was?

Speaker 1 Problem with our plane, they sit way up in the front. We fly one of them big giant monstrosities.

Speaker 1 Everybody near them. Never even see them.
Did they invite you for the poker games? Never even see him. Nope.

Speaker 1 Never see him.

Speaker 1 Isn't that amazing you can fly on a plane

Speaker 1 and you never see the players?

Speaker 1 Jesus. Well, in your day,

Speaker 1 you're sitting in airports. Oh, you're connecting players.
I'm not with the players.

Speaker 1 Yeah, please. Yes.

Speaker 1 with the coaches. It was like everybody.
Yeah, it's not like that. People are coming up to you in the gates.
That was such a fascinating era. Yeah, it was.
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 Just eating like McDonald's with a two-hour connection in Kansas City, trying to go somewhere else.

Speaker 1 Hold on, no, getting on a flight five in the morning, and some guy sitting next to you and he wants to have a conversation. You don't even know who he is.
Right. So, are you a basketball player?

Speaker 1 So, we should should talk about the Suns.

Speaker 1 Because you weren't on Justin's show today, so he didn't get the privilege, pleasure, honor of your reaction to the ESPN story about some of the Sun stuff.

Speaker 1 My take, and I've said this before, is I actually think the Suns, the team they built is a team that really made sense of the 2010s, but the league is just way better now.

Speaker 1 And that star system, which a bunch of teams have where they have the two really good guys, it just doesn't work the way it did.

Speaker 1 Like you, you really need seven to nine guys who can be good at all times built around the two and i don't know how they they're kind of down this road now and i don't know how they fix it i know they freed up some picks but is this even fixable in your opinion you're at every game

Speaker 1 i think it is and i've said this time and time again just watching them all year

Speaker 1 they're the biggest problem it's not the opponent it's them And what I mean by it is, if you look statistically at the numbers when they win,

Speaker 1 if they don't turn it over, and I mean like you're going to turn the ball over, but I mean like 14, 15, you're giving up 18, 20 points off turnovers.

Speaker 1 The games they don't do that, they win.

Speaker 1 The games they rebound, at least stay close on the offensive glass, they win because they normally outshoot the opponent.

Speaker 1 Like we have lost a numerous amount of games this year where we've shot 49, 50%

Speaker 1 and lost. Why? Because the opponent got 18 more field goal attempts.

Speaker 1 And that is the issue with them. It's like, it's so simple.
And we see it. We've seen it over the stretch when they've been winning.

Speaker 1 We see it over the stretch when they don't turn it over and they rebound. They win.

Speaker 1 And they know it, but they just can't. It's just like last night.
Last night. pretty much had the game under control.

Speaker 1 Start turning it over. Like, it's just, it's that part that drives you nuts.
And, and, I, you know, I think it's, that's fixable to me.

Speaker 1 That's fixable. Because say what you want about Bradley Bill and people say he doesn't fit and all that.
Dude, playing his butt off off the bench, man.

Speaker 1 Like, he literally is trying to defend and he's literally scoring the ball at will. Like, and he's, and he's obviously one of our most efficient players.

Speaker 1 So it's that part that drives me nuts calling the game.

Speaker 1 And, you know, obviously I can't go all crazy, but it's just like I'm watching it and I'm like, dude, just take one more dribble to the right and throw it into the post.

Speaker 1 Why are you, you know, it's just simple things that they get in trouble with. And it's just really, it's like, it drives you nuts to watch it at times.
What do you see, Justin?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I think Eddie hit it on the head with the rebounding. They might have the worst center rotation.
We've talked about this on the tax.

Speaker 2 They might have the worst center rotation in the entire NBA. So they can't rebound.
That's an issue.

Speaker 1 Who's rebound now, though, Just.

Speaker 1 They have Nick Ritz.

Speaker 2 Yeah, now you got Nick Ritzen.

Speaker 1 They got Will Chamberlain in 1965.

Speaker 2 Exactly. I mean, he almost gave me a 20-20 game the other day.
So it's improved a little bit. But yeah, rebounding is an issue.
I mean, they're one of the five worst defensive teams in the NBA.

Speaker 2 And I too agree that it's fixable again, because I don't have much confidence in the teams at the top of the Western Conference outside of Oklahoma City.

Speaker 2 I'm the moron that picked them to go to the finals this year. Eddie picked them to win the title like three straight years.
Then he didn't pick them this year.

Speaker 2 I picked him to go to the finals and lose.

Speaker 2 lose so uh i think it's fixable this year but the issue i have is long term you don't win this year like say get jimmy butler and rectify it it's not going to get better next year it's not going to get the better the year after that and you're stuck with what you have so i think like this year they could still make a pretty decent run but after that moving forward they might be the biggest mess in the nba and why did they make that trade for three different picks if they didn't have something lined up like they turned a 2031 pick that's going to be valuable i thought when they made that deal okay well they know they're going to turn it into jimmy butler or some other big piece.

Speaker 2 They've done that. They don't have anything lined up.

Speaker 1 Trade that line that over. No, I know, but if they, if they don't make a move, Billy,

Speaker 1 I had the same reaction. You don't do that because they basically turn the $2 bill into, you know, a dollar and two quarters.

Speaker 1 You don't do that unless you know you're about to do something. So then everybody's like, all right, I can't wait to see what it is.

Speaker 1 A week passed.

Speaker 2 Like, if you just wanted Zach Levine, you could trade like, say, Bradley Beal and attach the 2031 pick.

Speaker 2 Now, he wouldn't go to Chicago, apparently, but the point is, like, that would get it done, perhaps, because that pick's so valuable.

Speaker 1 Well, my guess is they're trying to use one of the picks to dump Nurkic on another team, right?

Speaker 1 So then maybe he's in a three-team or a four-team trade, whatever. But either way, once you dump him, you have more flexibility to do the next move.
And I'm sure there has to be some master plan.

Speaker 1 But yeah,

Speaker 1 me personally, me personally,

Speaker 1 I think that we're a physical player away from really being competitive this year in the playoffs. And that's at the forward position, whoever that guy can be.

Speaker 1 I just don't think it has to be a guy that's a high-level guy. I just think it's a guy that rebounds the ball.
If we get more field goal attempts than the opponent, we'll win. Like,

Speaker 1 I will put anything on that with the scores that we have. If we can rebound.
and don't allow second chance points and get the same amount of field goal attempts, I think we'll win most games.

Speaker 1 And I think

Speaker 1 that's their weakness right now is the rebounding. And if they can shore that up, and I'm pretty sure that's what they're trying to do, then I think it helps.
That's awesome.

Speaker 1 Tough one for me because that was one of my best bets heading into the year was Phoenix over 47.

Speaker 1 Eddie, you've watched Durant now for almost two years, up close, doing every game. Is there anything

Speaker 1 that stood out that you just had no idea until you're watching him night after night? He's just relentless, man.

Speaker 1 Like, when I tell you, he's just relentless. The dude,

Speaker 1 like, you know, it's never an accident to be that good offensively, right? It's not an accident. I'll just give you all a story real quick.

Speaker 1 We had a large event and it was at the practice facility about a month and a half ago. And everybody was dressed up and everything.

Speaker 1 And they had like a little mingle thing going on with the fans and all that. And they had the baskets down.

Speaker 1 The whole entire night, he was shooting.

Speaker 1 I was blown away. Like the whole entire night, he was over that shooting.
You know, people come over and talk to him and all that, but he shot the entire night.

Speaker 1 And I'm saying to myself, dude,

Speaker 1 I mean, why do you have to keep shooting? Like, we know it's like, it's ingrained in him. So it's like something he was doing from like age six.

Speaker 1 That's just part of his life every day. Yeah.
And, you know,

Speaker 1 the impact, I don't know, I've not mentioned it to him yet because I've, you know, been able to talk to him since then. But it's like, that blew me away.

Speaker 1 Like, it's like, that's why this dude is this good offensively. Like, he just, he understands his craft and he knows what he has to do.
But no, the shot making, man, I.

Speaker 1 you know, watching it from afar and all of that, yeah, but no, just to see it every day,

Speaker 1 it's ridiculous, man.

Speaker 1 I keep waiting for signs of slippage with him because he's been in the league for 18 years now, Justin. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, there's moments when he looks a little stiffer than maybe when you go back and you watch like the early OKC stuff and he's just such a crazy freak, seven foot.

Speaker 1 So he's, it's a whiff stiffer, but he has all the same shots. And he's so smart at no, it's almost like what was happening with LeBron near the end when you just kind of know where to go, where to be.

Speaker 2 you can read everything and you know exactly what your best play is um i don't really see a lot of slippage i don't know how much longer this goes yeah i and i the thing i don't understand is like the talent from like an individual perspective i haven't seen a drop off i just don't understand why it doesn't result in in team success ever since he left uh golden state right he goes to brooklyn like you saw him play the celtics in the first round he did get outplayed by tatum in all four of those games that was the second year the first the first year though they had the bad luck

Speaker 1 And that's the big what is.

Speaker 2 Exactly. With his foot on the line and all that type of stuff.
And he was like, they'd probably go on to maybe win a championship because they were facing Phoenix in the finals.

Speaker 2 They would beat Phoenix.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 he goes to Phoenix and they've been unable to get out of the second round. They get swept last year.

Speaker 2 So it's like weird that it hasn't translated into team success, even though they've, you know, he's played with talented players.

Speaker 2 I will add something just like an individual story because Eddie and I crushed him when he went to Golden State. I know you were a little bit easier on him.

Speaker 2 And I'd like go back and forth with him on Twitter. And I've been, you know, critical of aspects of like his career and his decision making, even though he's an amazing talent.

Speaker 2 We interviewed him last year and I've had a lot of stars who I'll be critical of. They won't even look at me.
Like Durant comes up and he jokes around about it.

Speaker 2 We laugh about some of the stuff that I've criticized for him in the past, answers every question, jokes around, gives you a high five, says hello whenever you see him.

Speaker 2 So I just love the way the guy handles himself.

Speaker 1 You know, this is something Eddie said about when we talk about LeBron once,

Speaker 1 when you think like when somebody gets to the league, that they maximize whatever the potential of what they could have been, right?

Speaker 1 I think LeBron's the best example of this, whatever you thought the ceiling was, and he had the most expectations of just about anybody. And then he hit all the expectations.

Speaker 1 I think Durant's like that too.

Speaker 1 And yet he's always going to have this thing about switching teams. And that's going to become part of the legacy.

Speaker 1 But what's what's interesting to me about legacy is just watching Vince Carter, right? He gets this Jersey retired in Toronto and in New Jersey. He's in New Jersey for four and a half years.

Speaker 1 I just don't think anybody gives a shit after a while, right? Even Toronto, where you would think any fan base would be the maddest at a player who left. And even they were like, yeah, we don't care.

Speaker 1 And I just think when Durant, when he retires, everybody's like, oh, what's going to happen? Who's going to retire his number? I think he'll get his number retired at OKC. and Golden State.

Speaker 1 And I think his legacy will be fine.

Speaker 2 At the rate they do it, they'll probably do it in Brooklyn.

Speaker 1 i mean oh they uh brooklyn might if they're going to do vince carter maybe keny's next exactly and the vince carter one really bothers me are they gonna like give jimmy butler a jersey retirement are they gonna you know put a street maybe i'm gonna not ruin anything else like the vince carter thing i couldn't believe paul george is upset because he never got a tribute video i don't know if you saw that he came out i saw that you tried to force a trade out indiana for a year exactly and and like you treat the organization that way you leave them high and dry and you want to be like honored i just don't understand like there's a reward for handling yourself the right way in the city and then you'll get the honor if you leave in a wrong way then you shouldn't get it i think people have a forgiving heart and i think we've had friends in our lives that we probably thought we'd never be friends with them again and years go by and we kind of get a softer heart and we give in to the temptation of maybe you know so you're telling me i'll like you in 20 years in 2020 i mean well hey you do it you got a lot of people that's been divorced and they still get along you know it's just i I just think fans, I think over a period of time, I think they, they just remember the good times and they, and they, and they feel like that.

Speaker 1 It is funny. It is crazy how that works out.
The Toronto thing really blew my mind.

Speaker 2 It's like you can quit on a team and then you can get honored. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't understand that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I get like there were some good times in it too, but it's, I guess there's the statute of limitations for all this stuff. But back to KD, like, I just think all that stuff washes away.

Speaker 1 He won two titles. He's one of the best either 15 or 20 players ever, depending on you know, what your list is.
And that's just going to be the legacy.

Speaker 2 But 100%, because people only count stuff. Like you go back in, you know, the 1960s, all they do is count 1970s.
They just look at basketball reference. They don't look at the context behind anything.

Speaker 2 So yeah, it's going to matter maybe to me and you how he won his championship. In 50 years, they're just going to count it on basketball reference with absolutely no clue.

Speaker 1 But I'll just say this, and I've told him this. I was upset that he went there only because I wanted OKC to beat Golden State.
That's why I was upset.

Speaker 1 And I knew him going to Golden State, he was going to win championships. But Golden State was not beating LeBron if he did not go there.
And I think that's what he can carry.

Speaker 1 And I think Golden State fans know that. So I think, yeah, they're going to retire his jersey.
They're going to treat him like the king there because they knew they were in trouble.

Speaker 1 They knew that they weren't going to beat that Cleveland team the next couple of years.

Speaker 1 I'm going to respectfully disagree. I think Golden State won won 73 games.
Curry was hurt in that 2016 playoffs. In Cleveland, the next two years, Kyrie, LeBron got rocky.
Kyrie left.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Stuff got weird in Cleveland.

Speaker 2 And the other thing is, like, I always look at it: if you replace Durant with that, like, I mean, even go back to another Golden State, great.

Speaker 2 If you put Rick Berry on that Golden State team, they're definitely winning the title if you replace Durant with Berry. And that's what bothers me.
Like, even with the best.

Speaker 1 Rick Berry, like in his 60s or Rick Berry with maybe Rick Berry, even in his 60s, maybe even then, but definitely like during the prime of his career. I'm saying the same thing.
I agree.

Speaker 1 It was an automatic win, but they weren't going to have that automatic win because if he did not go there, maybe, maybe not.

Speaker 2 But it's just hard. Like, if you took Jalen Brown, for example, and put him there, they're definitely winning as well.
And he's not anywhere close to

Speaker 1 the thing. He hit the big shots to seal those.

Speaker 2 There were no big shots. They were winning the series in four or five games.

Speaker 1 No, but he hit the big shots i mean he hit the big shots in that series and and so that's the difference but this is the thing like if you just go back to that clay thompson game the sliding doors of it okayc just beats golden state and then okayc plays cleveland in the finals and it feels like the next nine years of the league is just different i don't know how it plays out like what if okayc beats cleveland And then it's like LeBron doesn't get the title in Cleveland.

Speaker 1 Does he stay in Cleveland till he gets the title? What happens? What happens to Golden State if Durant doesn't go there? Like

Speaker 1 you know, it's probably the biggest what-if of this century. And

Speaker 2 you view Durant completely different. Westbrook doesn't have to deal with any of the BS that he's dealt with his entire career.

Speaker 1 So he's going to leave, but just

Speaker 1 look, if Denver wins, it's going to be Westbrook leading Jokic. So don't worry about it.
No, of course.

Speaker 1 This is finally, we can all agree on Westbrook at the same time, which I don't know if it's ever happened. I love Westbrook and Jokic.
I never gave up on Westbrook. I know you did.

Speaker 1 I got to hand it to you. You never gave up.

Speaker 1 I said he should retire earlier this year and i'm just i just want to say that i'm glad that westbrook found a uh teammate that was smart enough to understand how to utilize him he finds that's the guy it's most weirdly bad for lebron eddie this is like in the yokic versus lebron argument this is not this is an alpha for lebron bill it's easy to say that but here's what i told justin last week is like yokich is the best it was the best combination for westbrook because with lebron lebron handled the ball westbrook handled the ball.

Speaker 1 It wasn't a good mix.

Speaker 1 Down in Houston, Harvard. I could have told everybody that.
Westbrook handled the ball. It was not a good mix.

Speaker 1 You know, even when he went to Washington and he played with Bill, Bill was wanting to handle the ball. In Washington, Westbrook didn't take off until Bill got injured.
And here was my response. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that is the best combination because Jokic plays differently than everyone else.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And so you're right, Eddie.

Speaker 2 And LeBron should have been intelligent enough to understand that, that he needs the ball westbrook needs the ball and that was lebron's mistake because he wanted to play with him well no no no the ball goes into the king's hands

Speaker 1 that's that's the that's the one real nitpick with lebron is everybody else has to fit toward and that's and that's the way it should be that's the way that some of the best sports of all time

Speaker 1 bringing him there yeah lebron made a mistake bringing him there i will say that but the ball goes into lebron's hands

Speaker 1 i don't care who's on the floor with him other than this magic of bird you can make that argument okay bringing the ball up. I'm saying, not in the half court, because then we can argue Jokic.

Speaker 1 But what I'm saying is, ball goes into LeBron's hands. That's just the way it is.
Also, though, the fact that Westbrook seems like he's like 95% as explosive as he was 12 years ago. He's ridiculous.

Speaker 1 He's an all-time freak. It's ridiculous.
Even LeBron like slowed down and got bigger and changed some of what he did. Westbrook seems like he's just like in like.
He's a freak of nature.

Speaker 1 I don't understand.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Even though I said he should retire, I'm happy that he is not because I do love his mental approach.
It's awesome. We need a guy that cares every single night as much as he does.

Speaker 1 But think about this, though. What about Presty? He had three MVPs, okay?

Speaker 1 And all three of those guys

Speaker 1 were three of the best conditioned athletes. Now, Hardin had his ups and downs.
Yeah. But the one thing about Hardin, he played every night.

Speaker 1 And he had to bring the ball up against little dudes. He beat them off the dribble.
So his energy level was high as well.

Speaker 1 But those three guys, KD, Russ, and Hart, on the same team, you can put them up there with the top energy guys in the history of the game. I mean, they have been, they persevere.

Speaker 1 I flew to Oklahoma City at the end of 2010 because I just wanted to go to a game.

Speaker 1 I really liked watching OKC, and I just kind of wanted to see them before they ascended to whatever was going to happen with them. And I went to a practice.

Speaker 1 And at the end of the practice, they were running the wind sprints. And KD and Russ were beating everybody in the wind sprints.

Speaker 1 And they're like busting each other's ass trying to beat it, some random day in December in the middle of the season. And they're flying back and forth trying to beat each other.

Speaker 1 And I really think like that, like all those early years where they're competing against each other and Hardens trying to compete against them probably had some weird, you know, carry-on effect to the fact that we're in the mid-2020s and all those guys are still on important teams, you know,

Speaker 1 doing their thing because now they're all in their mid-30s. It's amazing.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Before we go,

Speaker 1 quick game of do you believe?

Speaker 1 Do you believe in Cleveland as an actual title contender, Justin?

Speaker 2 I do. Eddie likes, we've had this debate because Eddie likes the Knicks more than the Cavs.
I like the Cavs more than the Knicks.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I love what Don, here's what we do agree, though, on Cleveland: we both love that Donovan Mitchell's taken a step back and involved his teammates a little bit more because I thought that was a major issue in Utah.

Speaker 2 I thought it was a major issue the first couple of years in cleveland the fact that his numbers have dropped a little bit uh shouldn't be an indication of his play getting worse it's the same exact thing boston did last year you look at everybody in that rotation took a step back for the best

Speaker 2 team sacrifice that's what donovan mitchell's doing this year i absolutely love it and i take them seriously as a title contender and the other thing that i love is like people wanted to break up mitchell and garland and there was even some thought bill that garland wanted out remember last offseason i don't think it was i don't think it was a thought i think i don't know if he was 100 happy.

Speaker 2 Of course. And then same thing with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen.
Can they play together? They keep them together. And I love continuity.
I know you're big on this as well.

Speaker 2 Like the longer teams stay together, the easier, like that's why Philadelphia, like this year, I didn't believe in them anyway, because it's three guys being thrown together that you knew aren't going to play a ton.

Speaker 2 Like continuity means something. And now they're at the point where they know each other inside and out.
So I take them as a legitimate threat. I have them number two behind Boston and the East.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, they're a threat. They definitely are a threat.
They're the biggest team, one of the biggest teams in the league.

Speaker 1 And I think Jared Allen, if he can stay healthy, I think he's the key. I think he's the key.

Speaker 2 Their wings are a concern, and I guess how they deal with size is a little bit concerned at the guard position, which is why Boston matches up well against them with Holiday and

Speaker 1 Karis Lavert.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and Karis Lavert, I think, off the bench for them, whether he's off the bench starting. He's going to have to be consistent, right? And so I think they got enough.
Yeah, I do.

Speaker 1 I think they have enough to offset because they can bother Boston with their size. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then I think they just maybe have, you know, the same amount of experience as New York. So it's like almost a crapshoot with the two of them.
So I think they do have a chance.

Speaker 1 Right now in FanDuel, they're plus 850. They have the third best odds for the title.
The Celtics are plus 210. OKC is plus 230.
Don't make a Terry Rogier joke.

Speaker 2 No, no, I wasn't going to. I was going to.
I'll make a Terry Rogier joke. Would you bet on Donovan Mitchell or Jalen Brunson?

Speaker 2 If you're Terry Rogier, would you put money on Jalen Brunson or Donovan Mitchell in a series? Because don't forget, Brunson's beat him twice. I'll played him twice.

Speaker 2 Once in when Mitchell was in Utah, once when he was in Cleveland.

Speaker 1 So my fear, I think the Knicks are really good. And you can see them getting better.
And you know, they're going to get a buyout guy and they'll have an eight-man rotation.

Speaker 1 You know, they're all going to play too many minutes and somebody will probably get hurt. But I think the ceiling, I'm really impressed by them, especially offensively.

Speaker 1 I do wonder with the amount of stuff they're putting on Brunson, how sustainable that is for nine months. That would be my biggest fear if I'm a Knicks fan.
It's not a big guy.

Speaker 1 We just haven't seen teams built around small guards be able to survive for nine months. The only guy that really did it was Isaiah.

Speaker 2 Well, don't you, I mean, they killed Becky Hammond for saying the same exact thing, so be careful, Bill.

Speaker 1 I think it's on Brunson, though. I think Brunson has to be honest with himself because I think he plays beat up a lot.
I don't think it's sustainable.

Speaker 1 he plays beat up a lot and i don't think he i don't think he he needs to sit down at times and and i think it's just that mentality of you know he shouldn't have to worry about it but i think no if i sit down something might happen you know so i take my minutes kind of thought that's not happening with him i just think he you know he's all wrapped up man to be a young player he's just always got something on his body yeah and they get great crowds but that's why i like cleveland a little bit more i like the way they've handled the regular season they're winning but you look at their minutes and everybody's like 30 minutes and below.

Speaker 1 Like they're really, they're really kind of pushing toward where the Celtics play their guys a lot.

Speaker 2 The Knicks play their guys.

Speaker 1 The Celtics have their top two guys. Is that that's 36 minutes and up for the top two?

Speaker 1 Do you believe in Zion at this point, Eddie? No.

Speaker 1 I believe in his talent,

Speaker 1 but I don't believe that he is capable

Speaker 1 of keeping himself in shape. And I think that's part of the issue.

Speaker 1 Like, I've seen a lot of basketball players in my life playing the NBA and always wondered, was that guy better off being a football player or a basketball player?

Speaker 1 And I still continue to say it. When I first saw Zion in high school and I saw him on the basketball court, I said, that's a football player that's very good at basketball.

Speaker 1 And I think his mentality is that of a football player, of like a lineman or something. We don't have to do a ton of stuff, you know?

Speaker 1 And for me, I just don't, I don't, basketball seems to not have been his ticket. Like, we all played sports, right? I played baseball.

Speaker 1 I played football a little bit, and I was pretty good at baseball. But I reached a point where I said, okay, Eddie, you're six foot six.
There's not too many six foot six third basemen.

Speaker 1 My arm is hurting from pitching. I need to play basketball, right?

Speaker 1 And I don't know if Zion ever reached that point of having to make the decision. I think automatically he played basketball.

Speaker 1 And to me, man, I just don't think mentally he's in tune with what it takes to stay on the floor

Speaker 1 as a basketball player. But what's funny about you laying that out, though, is that he came into the league as one of the best assets for the number one pick that we probably had this century.

Speaker 2 We interviewed David Griffin and Alvin Gentry the night they got that pick. Like we were there at the draft lottery.
Those guys were as happy as could be.

Speaker 2 And it might end up like it already cost Alvin Gentry his job and it might cost David Griffin his job. So they were ecstatic about it at the time, but now they might lose their job as a result of him.

Speaker 2 Gentry already did.

Speaker 1 The one thing I've, well, I've learned a couple of things, I guess, following sports and trying to come up with things to say and studying stuff.

Speaker 1 If the guy doesn't want it, there's not a lot else you can do.

Speaker 1 And I think you could say that if you're a parent and you have a kid that's good at a certain sport, you can't force the kid to be awesome at the sport.

Speaker 1 At some point, they're going to have to give a shit.

Speaker 1 And he says all the right things sometimes, but it just doesn't seem like he gets it. And now he's headed toward his mid-20s.
Yeah, at some point,

Speaker 1 it's either going to happen or it's not up here, and it just doesn't seem like it's there. I tell this story real quick, and I've said it on a show.

Speaker 1 I once had this lady traveled all the way from Wyoming with her kid, and that's when I had a training academy. Yeah, the kid shows up, kid is six foot six,

Speaker 1 I mean, ripped, 14, 14,

Speaker 1 14 years old. And she says, he's going to be a great basketball player.
He's going to grow. His dad was 6'10 and he's going to grow.
So I worked the kid out.

Speaker 1 He takes 25 jumpers in close, 10 feet around the rim, May 1.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 I moved him out a little bit, five air balls.

Speaker 1 And so I sit him down on the side. And I said, you know, what do you like to do?

Speaker 1 And he started talking about all the things he likes to do. And he started talking about his instruments and he likes to play in the band and all of that.
And not one time did he mention basketball.

Speaker 1 I looked at the mother. I went over, I said, Miss, I'm going to give you your money back.

Speaker 1 And I charged her like a grand. I said, I'm going to give you your money back.
And I am telling you, if you don't want to lose your kid, you need to let him be in the band.

Speaker 1 I am telling you, he does not want to play basketball.

Speaker 1 She started crying. I mean, literally, I knew deep down.
I had to grab this lady. She was like distraught.

Speaker 1 And I told her. And then I went over there, took over to him, and I said, son, what do you like to do?

Speaker 1 Band.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so to me, that's like, it reminds me of Zion. Like, he was made to play basketball.
They want him to play basketball. And I just wonder at times,

Speaker 1 does he really like want to play at a high level? And I've said that about numerous guys. It's not just Zion.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Well, that contrasts that to your Durant story.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Durant probably, ever since he could hit the 10-foot rim with the ball, he's probably been shooting jumpers for three, four, five hours a day. Yeah.
So, yeah, that's the thing. And I...

Speaker 1 I actually think Tatum has this. I think Tatum and Brown has it too.
And maybe it's a good thing that that they, you know, they're a little competitive in a good way with each other.

Speaker 1 But I think they come in every year. Like this year, Jalen got too big, but at least there was intent behind it, right? He's like,

Speaker 1 I need to survive the nine months. Tatum always adds stuff year after year.
I know. I want Jalen to lose a little justice.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that was my issue with like, honestly, with Jamal Murray. It's like, did he get paid? Did he win the championship and then take his foot off the gas? Like, to the credit of

Speaker 2 Jalen Brown, to the credit of Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum, like those guys have busted their rear ends. Like, Jalen Brown, like, again, you said he got maybe too big, but the intention was good.

Speaker 2 Uh, so Jalen Brown, like, wins a championship, he gets paid. Like, the year before, Jalen Brown got paid.
He didn't say, I get paid, and you know, I'm just fine now.

Speaker 2 Like, Jalen Brown got the biggest contract in NBA history and then came back and had the best season of his career, won a final MVP.

Speaker 2 Like, that's credit to guys that do that because I don't think everybody can.

Speaker 1 You could argue that's what maybe forced Jamal to not be in shape because he had not gotten paid yet.

Speaker 1 So, he this is a bigger issue with the league than I think people realize. Guys that have an extension coming and they're afraid to get hurt, so they stop working out all during the summer.

Speaker 1 There's a list of

Speaker 1 it messes them up, Bill. Yeah,

Speaker 1 I think it just happened to Trey Murphy.

Speaker 1 I think he started out the season shitty, and now he looks like Trey Murphy again.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I don't think Devin would ever admit it, but the way that he changed his game this summer was a positive for the Olympic team.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but I think that mentality kind of cut down that killer instinct that he had for a short period of time and thinking that, okay, I'm going to try this on the Suns too.

Speaker 1 I'm going to like, I won't take a shot in the first five minutes and, you know, I'll turn it on when I can. And I think it kind of got him in that situation.

Speaker 1 And lately, he's gotten back to devin, you know, being ultra aggressive. Like a lot of times they tell you, like Larry Brown used to always say.

Speaker 1 you F with the game. It's no F with you.

Speaker 2 So and that's, I agree with Eddie's point. I think that's a really good point that he carried that mindset that he had all summer into the season and it affected his game.

Speaker 2 Can somebody tell me somebody that actually benefited from the Olympics this year? Because I think everybody's going to be.

Speaker 1 Here comes the anti-patriot.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. No.
Boo America. Boo America.

Speaker 1 You play for your country.

Speaker 1 I do think if I could do, if I was the czar of our Olympic

Speaker 1 program, I would go 25 and under for the team.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so would I. I wouldn't.

Speaker 1 I just wouldn't. And we'll get our butt kicked every year.
I don't know if we would.

Speaker 2 You almost got your butt kicked this year with the, you know, the Legends.

Speaker 1 Exactly. And you can almost get it.
Exactly. I want like people like Ahmed Thompson on our 2020 Olympic team.
Like, let's give them the experience, put them on that stage

Speaker 1 and maybe have like one or two people over 25 as like the

Speaker 1 Bill. I would love to see it.
I like cheering for the underdog. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's exactly what it's going to be.

Speaker 2 I cheered for Serbia.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Why do you even acknowledge that? Just

Speaker 1 get a dual passport.

Speaker 1 Guys, thank you for all the time. This is great.

Speaker 1 Now I feel better when I pop on your show out of nowhere when I'm driving around. I just text Jessica.

Speaker 1 You never asked. It wasn't like we turned you down.
No, I know.

Speaker 2 Well, you did last week, and he asked us last week. You said that.

Speaker 1 No, but there was a reason you guys could do it last week. I know.
No, this was fun. I had a great time.
Uh, can listen to you guys every what is it, four to seven?

Speaker 2 Four, yeah, four to seven uh Eastern time, Monday through Friday. Uh, and this, I think this is the longest we ever talked to each other for free.
Typically, we just talk to each other.

Speaker 1 No way I talk to him for free. You trust me, Bill.
So, you're good, you're a good conduit, Bill. Trust me on that.

Speaker 1 All right, safe travels. Great to see you guys.
Thanks for coming up. Farewell.
All right. Okay.
Take care.

Speaker 1 All right. That's it for the pod.
Thanks to JT and Eddie. Thanks to Kyle and Sarudi and Gahau.
As always, don't forget you can watch

Speaker 1 the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can also watch before sunrise on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel the latest rewatchables we did.

Speaker 1 I will see you on Sunday. We're not going live because there's no football game, but cousin Sal and I are going to have a little Super Bowl props extravaganza.
So that's coming on Sunday.

Speaker 1 Maybe we'll do some basketball too. We will see.
Enjoy the weekend.

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