The 2025 NBA Trade Value List With Ryen Russillo

Speaker 1 Coming up, I'm going to bat around a 2025 NBA trade value list with Brian Rosillo. It's fun.
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Speaker 1 Rosillo came on. We started taping this late morning on Tuesday.
I'm trying to figure out my annual trade value list that we're going to run on ringer.com. So I brought in Rossillo as my conciliary.

Speaker 1 As we're taping, taping, Sham Shirania breaks the news that Sacramento is now ready to explore the Aaron Fox trades,

Speaker 1 which, of course, we did not talk about, even though this trade value podcast is almost two hours long.

Speaker 1 I'll let you guess where Fox was in the rankings, but let's just say he was in the top 25.

Speaker 1 For trades, Miami,

Speaker 1 maybe

Speaker 1 I think Butler has to be in it and a bunch of picks and

Speaker 1 God only knows what else, or maybe maybe it's built around tyler hair on picks but miami jumped out to me as a possibility brooklyn if they want to trade some of their uh some of their big stuff and um the only thing that doesn't make sense with them is they're trying to tank this year but it just seems like the kind of foundational guy for them san antonio definitely has the pieces to try to get him throw some picks in they can make the contracts work and then um try to pair him with wemby and then houston which we talk about in this podcast podcast you're about to hear, which I think Houston's going to be afraid to do a major move, but they certainly have the pieces if they want to go get Fox, which I've been talking about for six weeks.

Speaker 1 If they wanted to turn Van Vuiet and a bunch of their picks and maybe, you know, Cam Whitmore to make the contracts work and just try to go all in and get him and add him to the team, it would be risky because they're playing really well right now.

Speaker 1 But those were the ones that jumped out. Other than that,

Speaker 1 I don't really see a fit, but

Speaker 1 I guess we'll see. So, Darren Fox on Trade Block, you are about to listen to the trade value breakdown for 2025.
This is where we're going to sort out the finalist. Rosillo is here.

Speaker 1 It's all next, first our friends from Bro Jip.

Speaker 1 All right, we're taping this late Tuesday morning Pacific time. Ryan Rossillo is here.
It's been a while for us.

Speaker 1 Once we get through football season, we're going to be doing Sunday nights again, talking hoops and a whole bunch of other stuff.

Speaker 1 But I'm bringing you in right now, Rosillo, as the Trade Value List Conciliary, a thing that I have now been doing for 25 years, a quarter of a century.

Speaker 1 The trade values list, which is not a rankings, it's a trade asset list, trying to figure out who the biggest trade asset in the NBA is. But before we do that,

Speaker 1 what side are you on in Jimmy Butler versus Miami? Do we have to pick a side? Yeah, I think we do. Is this one of those things where you just have to go one side or the other? Yeah,

Speaker 1 I like to have an open mind about a lot of things. But I think deep down my core, I know I probably already know which direction I'm going.

Speaker 1 He just wanted the contract that he's not getting. So what, I mean, unless there was a promise.

Speaker 1 I mean, everybody knows Hardin's not my favorite guy, but I kind of sided with Hardin Hardin on the end of the Philly thing because why would he have taken the pay cut?

Speaker 1 Why would he have done everything he had done? Yeah. And then it's like, and I know Philly's going to say nothing was ever agreed upon.
You're totally wrong. All right, that's fine.

Speaker 1 But he did something that didn't really make a ton of sense at the time to allow flexibility. Then he didn't get a deal.

Speaker 1 So on that one, I was like, well, even though I'm not definitive either way, I can understand him being upset with this one. I mean, have you heard anything that you believe?

Speaker 1 That's probably the important second part.

Speaker 1 Have you heard anything that you believe that would let you think that Miami would have been in a hurry to extend somebody like Butler, who's 35 and misses a lot of games?

Speaker 1 And had a contract for this year and a player option for next year. I think that's the unusual part about it is that there was real years on the book left.

Speaker 1 I really feel like I want to pick a side, but I kind of see both sides.

Speaker 1 What's Butler's side? Give me the anti-Miami Heat side. I think Butler's side is his relationship has been bad with the Heat for a couple years, and he took took them to the finals in 2000 and 2023.

Speaker 1 And I think at some point he felt like, you know, I brought you guys here. You guys tried to embarrass me in the press conference last year.

Speaker 1 You won't talk about an extension. You obviously don't care if I'm here two years from now.
So what's the point of this? With that said, I don't think he's handled it well either. You know, I think.

Speaker 1 A lot of us, including me and you, have been in, you know, some pretty hairy professional situations where you ended up not liking people you worked worked with or the employer you had.

Speaker 1 And at some point, you still have to kind of do your job. And I think that's where it's tough to side with him.
On the Miami side,

Speaker 1 Riley just seems like he's tried to antagonize him and alpha dog him in a bunch of different ways, in ways that if you knew anything about Jimmy Butler, it's like you go down this road and there's no going back.

Speaker 1 So I see both sides, but I will say this,

Speaker 1 they've torpedoed his trade value at this point.

Speaker 1 I mean, I think you could just get him now for two expirings and they're like, good, take him because they're so worried he's going to opt into next year.

Speaker 1 The start of the season, I was thinking Houston should do Ahmed Thompson and Van Voit. And let's go all in and try.

Speaker 1 I mean, we'll talk about Ahmed Thompson later, but to think like that.

Speaker 1 That was maybe an argument at the beginning of the season versus where we are now, where it's like, ah, would Detroit give up Tobias Harris and Tim Hardaway for Butler? And that's it? I don't know.

Speaker 1 Tobias is playing pretty well. Like, that's where we're at with this Butler thing, which is insane.

Speaker 1 You might be right about that. And I think there's, there's a bunch of different things there that I like.

Speaker 1 I've never been special enough to compare myself with Jimmy Butler, right?

Speaker 1 Like, I've, and I'm not, I'm not saying this because whatever our dynamic is, but your career, like, I think at times you have been special enough to probably get away with it.

Speaker 1 We don't have to, I'm not comparing ourselves to him in that way. I'm just comparing like what it's like to work for somebody when you're really frustrated with them.

Speaker 1 He's way more frustrated, I think, than either of us have ever been with anyone we worked with. Like he's doing shit, but he's doing stuff that

Speaker 1 he's doing stuff that,

Speaker 1 you know, that's, that's just seems like he's trying to sabotage everything. Well, right.

Speaker 1 When the first quote came out, when this thing first got picked up, it was like, Jimmy hasn't even started yet,

Speaker 1 which I was like, yeah, because we know the deal.

Speaker 1 You know, I think a lot of this stuff is like personal equity, where if like Tim Duncan ever had a problem with anything, I think we'd all immediately take Tim Duncan's side.

Speaker 1 I guess you'd just go, whoa, like Tim Duncan's upset about something.

Speaker 1 And with Butler, even though I think there's a version of the Chicago events where I would understand him, I thought the Wiggins Towns thing at the time was funny because I don't think he was wrong.

Speaker 1 Philadelphia decided to go with the young guys. So, you know, every exit, there's some drama.
But with this, there's another part of this that is just the reality of what's happening.

Speaker 1 This new CBA, when we first talked about it, you're like, man, this kind of looks like a hard cap. This, this looks like there's really limited flexibility.

Speaker 1 I think another motivation behind some of this was that, hey, guess what?

Speaker 1 If you have a four-year extension about to kick in and you want to ask for a trade and you want to ask for a trade to like one team that's already pretty good, we're going to set up something that not only curbs spending, which is the primary motivation behind this, but we're also going to like make it really hard for you guys to decide like, sorry.

Speaker 1 I'm just out of here now and you have to do this. And I think that a lot of star players,

Speaker 1 it's becoming a wake-up call.

Speaker 1 And when you're 35 and you miss a lot of games and your personal history is that it ends up in some sort of bullshit thing that's a distraction for the basketball team like no kidding there's not a great market for them well you'd think like he in the old days i want to go to phoenix all right how are we

Speaker 1 exactly they spent three weeks now it's like yeah you're not going to phoenix guess what we're not taking bradley beal we're not There's no scenario where we take him. Nobody else is taking them.

Speaker 1 And on top of it, Bradley Beal is a no-trade clause.

Speaker 1 So phoenix is out stop saying you want to go there um i think it's at the spite point where they just send him you know this last thing that happened this week now it just seems like they'll they don't even care they just want to get him out of there and and try to move on i think it's gotten that bad so he could i don't know why they'd want their team Yeah, I don't know why they'd want to be in the Jimmy Butler business.

Speaker 1 I think I can't dispute the fact of like whatever the trade market was for him versus now

Speaker 1 it's diminished because you're like, here we go again, and it's all fresh.

Speaker 1 And when it's actually happening, and then you you have to sit in their front office and your ownership and your coaches and go,

Speaker 1 I like the Memphis basketball part of it. But then when you hear the quote being like, don't send him to Memphis, like anywhere but Memphis.
Right.

Speaker 1 So if you're Memphis and you're like, hey, we're pretty good. We're not great, but we're pretty good.
So yeah, he raises our top five ceiling, which I think a lot of teams just do.

Speaker 1 Like, hey, if these are the five guys are rolling out there to close the playoff game, this is better than the five we have right now. It makes sense.

Speaker 1 But if you're like, what if he opts in at 50 million and then he's 36 and we don't give him an extension? So

Speaker 1 even though I there's not, there's only one team. Right.
There's, you have to be desperate to do this.

Speaker 1 And like taking, pushing the Detroits aside and teams that are like, oh, it'd be fun if they got Jimmy Butler. Golden State's the only team that's actually desperate.

Speaker 1 Golden State is at an actual crossroads as a franchise, as an organization for the decade. You know, they're just not good enough.

Speaker 1 And the stat that they're one in 20 heading into the fourth quarter when when they're not winning, to me, that's like, we got to go one way or the other, guys.

Speaker 1 Are we going to try to get better and do some sort of crazy all-in trade? Or are we going to start going the other way and start trading off people and just tanking this season and throwing it away?

Speaker 1 And do we go that way? But right now, they're in some middle ground.

Speaker 1 And that's where, like, you know, if you and I are in the Warriors office with the Lake Ops and the GM and they're like, what do you guys think?

Speaker 1 At some point, I'd be like, look, man, I think when Jimmy gets traded, he's going to be really good. I think he's going to be possessed and you might get an awesome year out of him.

Speaker 1 And this is the only way you could flip your destiny as a franchise. You might be able to get this guy for 12 cents on the dollar.
And in a playoff series, nobody's going to want to see him.

Speaker 1 Do you, two years from now, do you care? Two years from now, you're going nowhere anyway. So that's the one team I think I could see.
And there's trades. They have a bunch of contracts.

Speaker 1 Wiggins would have to be in it, but that's the only one I see.

Speaker 1 I just would be scared to death if I'm Dunlevy and I'm Lakeup and I'm going, okay, so we bring him in. Everything you made

Speaker 1 said made sense. But

Speaker 1 his agent's like, okay, so, you know, what do you think about tacking on those two years for him? It's a no. And so if it's a no.

Speaker 1 The bigger question is that just gone now based on how this year has gone? Like, hey, his agent's Bernie Lee, who's a very nice guy. Hey, Bernie, Jimmy's in every two years contract at this point.

Speaker 1 That's just the way it is. There's nobody in the league that's going to go forward for him based on the behavior.

Speaker 1 That's what he's forfeited. On the bright side, if he's still really good, every two years he'll get an awesome awesome contract.

Speaker 1 I think he's in that James Harden kind of zone now where it's like if he was 32, he doesn't play enough for me. It's a no.

Speaker 1 And you're right about the basketball part of it, whether it's them, whether it's Memphis, because it does raise your standard.

Speaker 1 But if I have to sit there and be honest with the people that are in charge of my employment, right?

Speaker 1 If you're working on the front office side of this, answering to your owner and going, yeah, let's just trust that it's going to work out with his track record.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't feel good about saying yes to that.

Speaker 1 I would just go like, look, it probably, it'd be one thing if he was younger and you go, hey, maybe the West isn't, and it isn't as deep or doesn't feel as deep halfway through the season as we thought it would be this summer.

Speaker 1 OKC still looks like a monster.

Speaker 1 I mean, we can run through every team and I could tell you concerns I have about all the contenders, but it would have to be more of like a guarantee of what's possible.

Speaker 1 And even adding him doesn't, like, what does it actually guarantee about what Golden State can do in the playoffs? The only reason you do it is because you love Curry.

Speaker 1 You feel like you owe it to him to at least be competitive for a couple rounds.

Speaker 1 And this is a way to honor that that's it you're not beating you're not winning four straight playoff rounds with or without jimmy butler i don't think

Speaker 1 let me let me throw something at you here because you mentioned it with the riley thing and they felt like really betrayed by riley being upset when butler was basically like if i was playing we'd beat boston we'd beat the next by the way they weren't beating that boston team last year or last playoffs with butler so it was kind of a crazy thing and then i think about like riley's age he's the same age as my dad i'm like imagine if my dad had to to do a press conference about a player.

Speaker 1 I'm so glad you brought this up. Riley's old.
Like he's acting erratically, which makes sense because he's like 80. 80 year olds are erratic.

Speaker 1 I went to go see Gillis and Bill Burr last night for the fire benefit. And Gillis had this whole routine of like, you know, Biden didn't really get enough credit.
Like, imagine.

Speaker 1 Imagine if you had someone in your family who was 84 who had to like go out there and speak to the world. Right.
Like it actually could have been that much worse.

Speaker 1 Now, look, Riley, at no point do I think like, what's going on with this guy? But he deserves like Riley's done enough in his basketball life to have this stance.

Speaker 1 And then when I think about like how other teams operate and everybody operates in absolute fear, where they have to, when their best player goes off, they have to find some way through PR to craft some way that they're supportive.

Speaker 1 But it's like, so what, so what happened? What if Riley had said nothing? The bottom line is if they didn't give him the contract extension, they'd probably be in the exact same place.

Speaker 1 So like, you can tell me that it was insulting or that that was the thing that I don't, when he didn't get the extension, when he felt like he was owed this, like, why?

Speaker 1 Because you went to the finals two years ago, which was like really fluky. And what, five years? He didn't have a great year last year, which is and he doesn't play.
He doesn't play enough.

Speaker 1 And look, when he was playing this year, you could see,

Speaker 1 you're like, what's going on with him? Like, before this even got like publicly bad. And it's like, so you want the extension, but you're going to mail it in for stretches?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I almost feel like he's coasting until the trade. And when he gets traded to wherever, he's going to unleash holy hoe.

Speaker 1 That's why the Detroit option is so fascinating to me for him, because that's a team that would actually need him. That's a team that just wants to be good, relevant in some way.

Speaker 1 And that's a team that has a really, really good player, you know, and they bring some things to the table. They're pretty well coached.

Speaker 1 He raises their ceiling in a way that I think is intriguing. They're not going to win the title with him.

Speaker 1 And I think that's why whoever is trading for him is not a team that he can win the title with. And I think that's another reality of this.
Like Denver's not trading for him.

Speaker 1 Even if Miami was like, all right, fine, we'll take Porter and we'll take Zeke Najee for four years. You can have Butler.
I don't know if that changes Denver's ceiling.

Speaker 1 Like they're to have enough outside shooting problems, you know?

Speaker 1 If they were playing worse, I might think about it, but I actually really like the way they're playing, even though they lost last night.

Speaker 1 We'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 You're totally ruling out Phoenix.

Speaker 1 I don't think anyone wants Beal.

Speaker 1 And even if they wanted Beal, I don't know if he would agree to go to the trade. But I watched the game last night.
Like, I just don't think Beal's good. He's fine.

Speaker 1 Like, he's, he's a rotation guy, but for 50 million a year, that's the worst contract in the league. What am I going? And he doesn't play every time.

Speaker 1 You know, I think there's a reason like Philip, like Phoenix has

Speaker 1 tried to move away from that big three model with him. And I think there's a reason everybody is like, yeah, no thanks.
Cool. Oh, I get Bradley Beal this year and the next two.
No thanks.

Speaker 1 Like everyone throws Chicago and, you know, oh, could he go to Milwaukee? Why would Milwaukee want Bradley Beal? They're going to have him and Dame at the same time trying to play defense?

Speaker 1 That's crazy.

Speaker 1 I just can't find a team for him either.

Speaker 1 I guess I just wonder why Phoenix would flip the unprotected 2031 for these other pieces without some inclination of what's possible for him before the deadline.

Speaker 1 Unless it was just, hey, we're all in now. Like when you have Durant, you're all in.
So is Beal better than mid-level players? Yes.

Speaker 1 He's really low on what the actual acquisition is. Can I stop you for a second?

Speaker 1 That trade was horrible.

Speaker 1 That was the all-time we took a $2 bill and turned it into three quarters and a dime because it gives us more flexibility.

Speaker 1 That's a team that they're at the blackjack table losing handout to the team. You think they have going.
Give me more. I'm going to double down.
Oh, you're kidding. Can I talk about this trade? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the actual Phoenix trade. You're acting like Phoenix is a rational team that puts thought into the shit they do.
That trade was idiotic. I'm not trading.

Speaker 1 Well, because they have nothing, because they have nothing and they're already all in with this group. I think the argument is that, well, like, what are we doing?

Speaker 1 We're going to hold on to assets in 2031. Like, we have to find any possible way to upgrade this group because once you did the Durant trade,

Speaker 1 this is how you were operating. Yeah, but at that point, you're Tim Daly's character in the Sopranos, the screenwriter who's on the 48-hour gambling binge, just getting killed.

Speaker 1 And he's like, just give me 25 grand more. I'm going to win this back.

Speaker 1 That's Phoenix and Ishbier right now. Just give me, let's split the picks up.
We'll have some flexibility. We'll try to win this back.
It's like, this ship has sailed.

Speaker 1 You're not doing anything and you're not getting Jimmy Butler for what you have.

Speaker 1 And if anyone takes Bradley Beal and allows you to get Jimmy Butler, I can't imagine a team in the league that's dumb enough. Maybe I'll be wrong.
Maybe they'll cut this clip out and be like,

Speaker 1 I don't see why anybody would want Bradley Beal. 50 million this year, 50 million the next two

Speaker 1 in the second apron era. Who wants that? I'd be fine,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 like what he would actually waive his no trade clause for, because this is somebody who actually didn't go to Washington the entire time they lost. Like we kept waiting for that to happen.

Speaker 1 And then I remember hearing, like, he's probably just going to wait until he can get that five-year extension with them as the incumbent team. And he

Speaker 1 is okay with just kind of being there. And then I wonder if Beal goes, you think I'm upset about coming off the bench? You think I'm upset about taking 13 shots a game? Yeah.

Speaker 1 I like it here. I like Phoenix.
My family likes Phoenix. Yeah, you can't.
Yeah. You can't human me here.
I'm good.

Speaker 1 I stayed with the Wizards for years on purpose. You think this bugs me? I just called my accountant.
I just can't believe how much money I'm going to make the rest of the year. I'm fine.

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Speaker 1 Enjoy so many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market Terms Apply. All right, so the trade value rules really quickly.
It's not, this is not a top hundred list.

Speaker 1 This has to do with age of the players, salaries mattering, contract length, happiness, and degrees, right? So it's if you're talking about

Speaker 1 one player that's 35 versus an up-and-coming star that's 23, that's crazy. Ahmon Thompson's a good example.
Yeah, Ahmed Thompson for Kevin Durant.

Speaker 1 If it it was just this year, maybe you'd want Kevin Durant for the playoff run. But big picture as an asset for your team, for age, rookie contract, the whole thing, you'd want Amon Thompson.

Speaker 1 You'd want to be in the business of him for the next 15 years. So that's a good way to think about it.

Speaker 1 It's also a great name, just to interrupt quickly, because after last night, I was like, will he have Amen in his top 10?

Speaker 1 Well, here's the thing.

Speaker 1 So I've been working on this list for two weeks, and there was a version of it a couple of days ago where I had him 20 and i emailed it to a friend of mine and i was like does anything jump out and he's like

Speaker 1 jesus you have thompson that high and i'm like i actually do i like i don't know if you've watched the last four weeks but what's happening here is is really really really crazy the athleticism the defense the rebounding the fact that he's starting to figure out how to create his own shot how to beat guys off the dribble he did to win the game in boston last night like what happened in boston last night wasn't like oh my God, what a great game.

Speaker 1 Like he's been moving this way for five weeks and he's the best ass son on that team and it's not close. I think he's an automatic hangup if you call Houston now.
They don't need it.

Speaker 1 They're like, what? No, we're not trading him. They hang up.

Speaker 1 This is a compliment, but imagine when he's good. Right.
Imagine when they could shoot threes. Right.

Speaker 1 And I don't know if he's, he's going to be like somebody you're really worried about, but there are things that he's doing. Like he was even the last, again, you're right.

Speaker 1 It wasn't just about last night against Boston.

Speaker 1 You're looking at these rebounding numbers, but also, and I like it, even though it doesn't look great, like they're letting him get into kind of a pull-up jumper, and it doesn't look very good, but I like that they're allowing him or they would want him to make those mistakes because you're never going to develop any of that stuff.

Speaker 1 You're never going to become the best version of yourself, the most well-rounded if you're afraid to do that stuff in game.

Speaker 1 Like it's the old Ben Simmons thing where it's like cool videos, bro, but you don't do any of those things that you show us in practice because you just, you've eliminated those from your arsenal because you're just not comfortable and i love to see young players especially somebody who is raw as him and when you did the draft work on him you're like man he's such an insane athlete and this is why people draft guys like this and then they get mad being like oh they just drafted the athlete and you're like yeah but this is this is the version of like the best case scenario of like if this guy ever figures it out with his gifts and the fact that he's like a one percent athlete I want him making some of those mistakes.

Speaker 1 I want him pulling up off the dribble and maybe taking an ugly jumper right now because the only way it's ever going to get better is when he's confident enough to actually apply some of this stuff in games.

Speaker 1 So it was when you sent me the list this morning, it was the first name I was looking for because

Speaker 1 the question is, how high should he be? Right, right. You called him a 1% athlete.
I think he's like a 0.1% athlete.

Speaker 1 I think

Speaker 1 you're the best to ever do it. I don't know how to do it.
I'm just like, I don't like, I just think athletically,

Speaker 1 he's on some rare plane that only a few guys I've seen have been at. Like when we're talking like young Kawhi, young Pippin, Westbrook, Derek Rose, those early years, MJ, obviously.

Speaker 1 It's like a very small list, and he's on it. And you saw some of the stuff he was doing on both ends last night.
Like even Tatum going by him and getting, you know, layups or shots he wants.

Speaker 1 Thompson's always almost there. Like he almost blocks it.
Like you really have to work to get by him. I just love watching him play.

Speaker 1 And I think the thing that is probably so hard to figure out when he, where was he? Overtime elite?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 How do you figure out the competitiveness piece for a kid who's like 17 playing in some goofy league, right? The thing that's great about him is how like relentlessly competitive he is.

Speaker 1 Like, I, I just, I'm such a huge fan. And for whatever reason, Jabari got hurt.
They went a little smaller with him. It unlocked something.
And now, if I were them, I wouldn't trade for anybody.

Speaker 1 You know, they're a two seed. They've had some big wins this week.
I, I, I wouldn't mess with this. Just let's get, let's see how far we can go.

Speaker 1 Let's keep pushing Thompson a little bit. Let's nudge and see really what's there, short term, long term.
And next year, we'll figure it out or this summer, right? I think that's the move. Because

Speaker 1 the wins they had this week, you really have to start thinking, eh, but what if they did, what if they did this? Could they like make the finals?

Speaker 1 We've seen teams like out of nowhere, and we've argued about this in the past. If you have a chance to make the finals, how far do you go?

Speaker 1 In this case, I'd probably wait because I think all their flexibility comes this summer once they can trade those Shangoon and Jalen Green deals.

Speaker 1 And so you want to know heading into the summer what to do.

Speaker 1 The other thing about this trademark, it is just a hit list of guys I'm not a huge fan of.

Speaker 1 It really is. That's for the Brazilo All-Stars.

Speaker 1 So Jimmy's the only one. If I knew he was bought in, I go, okay,

Speaker 1 let's do this. And you can figure out where he fits in because as much as they need Van Vleet,

Speaker 1 you worry a little bit about loading up on a small primary guy throughout the course of the playoffs.

Speaker 1 You know, Brooks is so important to them, especially what he does defensively. And then Jalen is kind of like an every other night guy.
And I thought he had turned out. You're giving him that?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think he's a once-a-week guy. Okay.
At least right now.

Speaker 1 Because as great as we are, like as much fun as a man is and what he could potentially be, I still have a hard time believing you're like running something for him with the ball in his hands to like get you the bucket.

Speaker 1 Wait, I don't know that he's there. Yet they did it yesterday.
Four seconds left.

Speaker 1 They ran the play for him and they were like, just beat Jalen Breena, Jalen Brown off the dribble and just do some crazy athlete thing. And even as he's like what you said earlier.

Speaker 1 It's almost like the baby deer on ice thing sometimes with him in offense, where it's like, he's moving so fast he can't even control it, but he still got the shot off. He broke Jalen's ankles.
Um,

Speaker 1 it's the most fascinating development of the year for me. As like when we're talking about, uh, I'm not surprised Wemby ascended the way he did, I'm not surprised SGA is having the year he is.

Speaker 1 Neither of us are surprised about anything with the Cavs. This is Thompson becoming like a top 20 trade asset.
I did not have that on my bingo card. And I don't think I like the Cavs.

Speaker 1 I didn't think they were going to get off to like a 73-win pace, a third. Yeah, it's starting to fade a little bit finally.

Speaker 1 When you're shooting 50-40-90 for or 50-40-80 for three months,

Speaker 1 I'm not going to go, I won't do all like the honorable mentions, second apron casualties. Can't believe they missed the top 80.
Toughest omissions, but I did send you the list.

Speaker 1 And the toughest omissions for me, I'll just rip them quickly: Reed Shepherd, Jaden McDaniels, Anthony Black, Klingen, Matherin, Dillingham, Beef Stew, who I love at four years, 60, 60, but couldn't put him on.

Speaker 1 Tyree Eason, Sohan,

Speaker 1 Thompson's brother, Peyton Pritchard, Mark Williams, and Nemhart. Is there anybody that jumped out on that list? So you're like, oh, man, they should have made the trade value.

Speaker 1 No, because I think any of these lists, like the first thing I did when I got it was like, don't go, oh, I can't believe you did this. Because whenever you have to do these lists, like, good luck.

Speaker 1 Like, whenever, even though when I did the top 100 that I then threw away, so I wasn't able to submit it for ringer.com, like I had such a hard time with 11 through 30. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because I'd go like, do I really think this guy is like a top 20 player? And then you go like, okay, we'll come up with a 20 names ahead of him. And that's the weird part of the league ranking stuff.

Speaker 1 And granted, this is different because of age and contract and all that kind of stuff, but I just,

Speaker 1 the names start to add up pretty quickly.

Speaker 1 I think maybe Matherin, just because I've loved,

Speaker 1 I've loved what he's been able to do in big spots offensively. And I like how competitive he is.
Oh, dude. He's a real alpha-y.

Speaker 1 Like, there's no way he hasn't had conversations with buddies where one of his buddies is like, yo, this should be your team, not Haliburt. He's like, I know.
Just waiting.

Speaker 1 Just waiting for it to become my team.

Speaker 1 Right. Like, would you rather have Kobe White or Matherin? I mean, on your list, you'd rather have Kobe White.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because I like his contract. And he puts up numbers and stats and he plays hard, but it's a good argument.
All right, I'll bold Matherin. Maybe

Speaker 1 there's some. tari you know like i like tari better than some of the names that you have in the top 85 but

Speaker 1 well wait hold that thought because i have to explain okay this year is a top 85

Speaker 1 it's unusual um there were years in the mid 2000s when it was a top 40 and i was barely getting to 40 like barely like squeezing shoehorning names in to try to get to 40.

Speaker 1 This year, I really probably could have done a top 100. The league is so deep, you don't really realize it until you're making a list like this.
So the top 85,

Speaker 1 the highest group is Group O, quality assets, and just going from 85 to 75. Nicola Vusevich, who on the right night could have 40 points.

Speaker 1 DeJante Murray, Kaminga, Jalen Wells, Herb Jones, Jared McCain, Walker Kessler, Kobe White, Jabari Smith. DeAndre Hunt.
DeAndre Hunter has a good contract, and Cam Johnson, number 75.

Speaker 1 So that's the first group. And your question, Eason was a tough one for me, too, because I really like him and I didn't know if I was overrating him or not.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I can see like, hey, you know,

Speaker 1 what is he? And that's kind of the stuff we're talking about here with Thompson, where I tend to,

Speaker 1 I don't want to say overvalue because I don't think I'm wrong about it, but I'm going to value the guys with the ball in their hands that can get me multiple.

Speaker 1 like possessions like hey cade like cade cunningham for me is somebody where you go hey fix this fix us right now. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And clearly, it's different with Detroit now that they've actually invested in spacing around him. But we'll get to Cade when we get to him.

Speaker 1 But that's always going to be kind of like my default setting of, can you get me a bucket? Or can you stop the other team from getting a bucket? Or really, like, it's that simple. Because that's

Speaker 1 I have some defense guys on this list that I'm like, I really value the defense.

Speaker 1 But I don't think it's a 50-50 split. I don't think it's.
60-40.

Speaker 1 Thanks for doing splits with me.

Speaker 1 You know, I have no percentages in splits. It might be 61-39, the more I think of it.
See, what is wrong with

Speaker 1 giving us flat numbers like that?

Speaker 1 I was expecting like 63.5%.

Speaker 1 So in this quality assets list,

Speaker 1 the hardest one for me, whether to include him or not, was Deshante Murray,

Speaker 1 who's got a fatter contract and whose teams never seem to do well.

Speaker 1 And I don't know whether it's his fault or not, but at some point, if you're going to hit your 30s and this just keeps happening where every team you're on is either disappointing or underachieving and you're one of the main guys, I have to look at you.

Speaker 1 But that's one. And then Camingo is the other one just because he's a free agent next year.
And I think that complicates the asset piece because if you trade for him, you also have to pay him.

Speaker 1 I put Jalen Wells in there because he's playing big minutes for this Memphis team and he's guarding the best guy in the other team every game. And at some point, that's, that's got to matter.

Speaker 1 Like they're winning with him. He always has has the toughest defensive assignment.

Speaker 1 And I think for a team relying on two rookies like that with ED, too, like it's been, it's really unusual to see a team that's good relying on guys who it's their first year in the league and in like significant roles.

Speaker 1 Like, hey, Edie, come in and we're going to run offense through you and protect the rim. Like, it's unusual.
Anyway, I really like Will, so I want to put him on there. All right, next group.

Speaker 1 This group is called Before the Second Apron Shit. I absolutely would have hung up.
But what are you thinking?

Speaker 1 So this is uh six guys number 74 poor zingis aaron gordon damian lillard zach levine drew holiday and pascal siakam all of them big contracts that you would have felt better about two three years ago did is dame too high too low or just right for you

Speaker 1 this feels low um even if he hasn't been my favorite throughout all this and i do wonder too like when we were talking about the heat at the very top like what if if Dame had gone there and it was the same situation with Butler?

Speaker 1 Because Butler's not getting the contract, with Dame be going, I just wonder if Dame at any point is going, this actually worked out better for me, despite the fact that

Speaker 1 Milwaukee, probably more based on health than anything, has been disappointing when you bring in somebody like Dame to pair with Giannis with this.

Speaker 1 The Gordon one is tough, man, because Gordon with Denver is worth so much more to them than as soon as Gordon is away from Jokic,

Speaker 1 he's just not going to be the same kind of player. So his contract, this is year one.
He had an extension. So it's basically five years and 150.

Speaker 1 So it's pricey. It's not crazy.
Right. So he plays really well with Jokic.

Speaker 1 So I think that makes his value higher just because,

Speaker 1 you know, it's just to Jokic is at such a crucial point in his career and is such an important player, not just for this generation, but just historically.

Speaker 1 Like, I just know Aaron Gordon's good with him, so I'm not trading him. You know,

Speaker 1 it would really have to take something for me to give him up.

Speaker 1 So, when you label this second apron thing, which I think you're absolutely right about, like, Prisingis and Drew, and you wonder, like, after this version of the Celtics, if there's a second apron transaction that happens there with Boston, depending on the season.

Speaker 1 You mean in July?

Speaker 1 You mean emphatically, yes?

Speaker 1 You mean next month? Don't you think Gordon's a no because of basketball first and contract second, if at all?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't. I just think he plays too well with Jokic.
And

Speaker 1 as long as you have Jokic, you have a chance to win the title. That contract's not prohibitive.

Speaker 1 The Murray contract's probably a little more problematic, you know, if although he's been really good the last couple of weeks, and I think we're all a little happier with what we're seeing.

Speaker 1 But I would be more worried about that because you can't miss on the $50 million contract. You can overpay a little bit on the guys making 30.

Speaker 1 Levine should be behind him, is my point.

Speaker 1 Levine should be behind behind Gordon. Gordon.
Okay.

Speaker 1 Do you like Levine?

Speaker 1 I do.

Speaker 1 I'm stunned. It's another shocking thing that's happened this season because I've watched him multiple times be the best guy in the court in games against really good teams.
And it wasn't like once.

Speaker 1 We're talking seven, eight, nine times where it's just he's really hard to defend and he's playing, I think, as well offensively as he's ever played. And I just, I value the offense.

Speaker 1 He's a 25 points a game guy that can go toe-to-toe with whoever at the end of a game. You know, it's not nothing.
Like, I would rather have him than Dame

Speaker 1 at this point.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 I can find point guards. I think it's much harder to find these swings that can create a shot.
Like, if Golden State somehow got Zac Lebane, and I don't think it would take a ton,

Speaker 1 he would be so huge for them because they have no other guy who can create a shot other than Steph. And how many times can you run Steph in a semicircle and set him picks and do little hand?

Speaker 1 Like they have nothing else. They have nobody else until Kaminga comes back.
So

Speaker 1 you're not wrong about that. I mean, the drop-off from primary scorer to secondary shot creation guy for Golden State is so significant.

Speaker 1 And that's why, you know, granted, yes, I love Steph, but when he has like bad games, there'll be this group. It's usually like LeBron weirdos.

Speaker 1 You know, like, oh, how come Steph never, like, I don't really love that content of like somebody who's just done it the right way, has won multiple rings, first ballot, everything.

Speaker 1 It's like, can you guys shit on him for a couple of weeks? You're like, you know what? I don't want to, and I'm not going to. Like, he missed some shots.

Speaker 1 But what he is tasked with to solve their problems offensively as the only guy, you know, other than the Schroeder acquisition. And I know, like, you could

Speaker 1 throw it back in my face. Right.
You could throw it right back in my face and be like, I thought you just started this podcast talking about you like bucket getters. And you're absolutely right.

Speaker 1 Like, there's moments with Levine where he looks looks like the most offensively talented player on the court. Um, but there are just too many plays as a seasoned Levine watcher.

Speaker 1 There are too many plays in there that I think everybody misses where you're like, What were you doing here? Who are you helping do this? What, why didn't you get back on defense here?

Speaker 1 And they're constant. And they're

Speaker 1 splat. I would fully admit he's flat.
There's a lot with the 71 trade asset. It seems fair.
I could just do it. I know.

Speaker 1 Like, I thought about doing a version of like something on my podcast where it was going to to be one name, one game, where I just watch one player the entire time, like that Julius Randall heat game where I just go, you know, I'm going to re-watch this and just watch Randall.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 when you really focus in the guy, you're like, how come this guy always has numbers? And how come his teams are never that good? And how come like he's so skilled?

Speaker 1 Like, what else is happening around this? And you go, well, that's not good. And that's not good.
And that's, and I talk about this stuff all the time with certain players.

Speaker 1 And I think Levine's the epitome of that.

Speaker 1 Jalen's had a couple tough ones jalen brown has had a couple tough ones this year in that respect like if you just watch him where i mean not helping on the maxi inbounds he'll end up with the stats but if you watch the game he does he'll have games where he just does 20 things you don't like

Speaker 1 and you could i you could make a youtube clip i just think he's had a really rough season compared to what happened last year where he really i think won a lot of us over as this guy has taken a step up.

Speaker 1 And I feel like this year he's gone back to where he was two years years ago. And there's just really, especially watching them in person two nights in a row, he just

Speaker 1 just is, he's got been really messy this year. And I'm waiting for it to

Speaker 1 not be the case anymore. And I'm just not.
But at least we know at like the highest level, he is, he's delivered. Well, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 So you're hoping in April it doesn't become messy anymore and it's back. But I'm just saying the regular season's been messy.
But there are some scores when I think about their playoff resume.

Speaker 1 I'm like, so you've been doing this for how many years and there's nothing significant? There's not a moment for me to look at and like, look, I'm with you.

Speaker 1 There's there's stuff with Jalen Brown and this year, the shooting.

Speaker 1 But,

Speaker 1 you know, when you're that young, like we've argued about Murray, when players who are like, have had something really good in their past have these, like I even was stubborn about Keldon Johnson.

Speaker 1 I'm like, is he just going to be terrible now? He's just going to be terrible. And I feel like he turned the corner a little bit this season.

Speaker 1 So even though the the Jalen stuff, I would agree with you, has been frustrating. At least we've seen that before.
At least Levine,

Speaker 1 like, what are you throwing at me with Levine? And be like, remember, remember this series?

Speaker 1 He, well,

Speaker 1 well, he doesn't have it. But I do think if you're going to complain about the rules, not you, but just in general, the second apron, how hard it is to do trades.

Speaker 1 Like, the one good thing that's happened with all this is it's forced guys like Levine to be like, I guess I'm stuck here. I'm just going to have to play well.

Speaker 1 And he's had for what

Speaker 1 he is, I think he's achieved

Speaker 1 whatever his talent ceiling is. I think he's achieved that.
I also think now that Lonzo's kind of back, like Lonzo's getting thrown in these trade rumors, he's an expiring contract, 20 million.

Speaker 1 If you watch the Bulls, I'm not positive I would even trade Lonzo. I kind of like the Bulls.
I'm not even sure they should do anything. Wait.

Speaker 1 I don't know if

Speaker 1 I don't feel like any of their, any, they're not going to actually get anything for any of their players. So it's like, well, why am I doing anything?

Speaker 1 I'll just make the play-in and try to upset somebody.

Speaker 1 I don't, it doesn't seem like any of their players are properly valued. It's like, I wouldn't just give away Vucevich.
Oh, thanks. You're giving me two twos for Vucevich.
I'm not doing that.

Speaker 1 I'm not like giving away Levine and taking back a bad contract. I'll trade Levine.
I'll get Bradley Beal back. Why would I do that?

Speaker 1 Like, why would I give away Lonzo? I like watching Lonzo. They owe their pick this year, though.
So they have to get into the well, then go higher and just lose your pick outside the lottery.

Speaker 1 Let's take a break and then

Speaker 1 a really fun next category.

Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Brooks Running. Brooks reminds us that we're all powered by something.
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This episode is brought to you by Prime Video. It's Bill Simmons here.

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Speaker 1 Next category: possible studs on rookie deals

Speaker 1 going from number 68 to 62. Koulabale, Sar, Messi.
Did you expect this from him?

Speaker 1 Eves,

Speaker 1 I didn't expect this. I mean, he looks incredible, and he's so confident, too.
But

Speaker 1 there's no hesitation on him, his aggressiveness.

Speaker 1 I feel bad for the Pelicans front office because when they're in the middle of the year, 12 and 35.

Speaker 1 And I know that it's nine of their players.

Speaker 1 They have done such a good job through the draft, yeah, and they have just you know, their main guys aren't healthy, so it's not a mystery.

Speaker 1 I have him at 66, wear at 65, a stunning turn of events for him, and I was guilty of saying it too.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh man, imagine if Miami had taken Connect or Jared McCain, and then Ware the last few weeks has looked like a you know, the kind of young big at a cheap price that anyone would want.

Speaker 1 Reese Sache, I'm never selling my my stock on him.

Speaker 1 Kayson Wallace at 63, and then Derek Lively at 62. Those are our possible studs

Speaker 1 on rookie deals. And for trade value purposes, having those guys, if those guys can play a rotation role and you're paying 4 million, 3 million, 6 million, that's where you want to be.
Next group.

Speaker 1 Nope. He's worth way more to us than to you.

Speaker 1 Number 61, Devin Vesselle. Now this trade value starts to get fun right around here.

Speaker 1 Number 60, Zubots wasn't prepared for him to be that high in the list, but I don't know how many Clipper games I have to watch where he's the best center in the game. His contract is three for 58.

Speaker 1 Too high, too low, or right range for him. I love Zoo.
Okay.

Speaker 1 I

Speaker 1 think he fights his ass off all the time. There's some good rim protection stuff in there.

Speaker 1 It's all his true. I think it's a big part of why they win.

Speaker 1 I don't know if anybody will do this because I'm not going to do it, but I'd love to know the success rate of pocket passes because I think a few guys like did it a couple years ago. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then everybody decided that when the big rolled and the two stayed with them, they were like, I'm going to do this sick lookaway bounce pass and then it's going to hit somebody's feet or it's never going to work.

Speaker 1 I think the success rate on this pocket pass that every player is obsessed with off of two staying with them is so low.

Speaker 1 But a lot of times, too, they're screwing the big by trying to even throw it to these guys. And zoo, for like the bigs that are out there, I'm like, you sure?

Speaker 1 Like, I know what the play calls for and that you think this is the right move, but can the guy actually catch it? I'm a big zoo fan, man. So I thought this was fine.

Speaker 1 Instead of a pocket pass, I would call it the tibia pass.

Speaker 1 It always ends up somewhere between the guy's feet and his knee, and the guy's seven feet tall. It's like, I'm pretty sure he's not going to be able to take that pass.

Speaker 1 Jalen, I don't even know if this guy throws a lot of these. Like, hey, do you see limbs in the way? of the pass? Yeah.
Well, then don't make it. It's like, nah, dude, two stayed with me.

Speaker 1 Have to throw the pocket pass every time.

Speaker 1 Zoo, number 60, James Harden, number 59. The deliverer of

Speaker 1 the pocket pass. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So two clippers in the top 60.

Speaker 1 Next three, I'm going to put in a row. Number 58, Scotty Barnes.
Number 57, Trey Young. Number 56, Jamal Murray.
Big contracts.

Speaker 1 Contracts you had to do.

Speaker 1 I don't think the team feels awesome about the contracts, but you kind of, it's like those no recourse contracts

Speaker 1 um

Speaker 1 how would you rank those three i have them murray ahead of young and barnes is that the right is that the right order for you it feels like if paolo's eight scotty barnes shouldn't be 59 or 58.

Speaker 1 all right so i'm one of the many reasons i'm glad you're here

Speaker 1 I don't see the Scotty Barnes thing

Speaker 1 like some others, and I might be too down on him, but I do think when you're the best guy in the team and the team doesn't win at some point, some of that's got to be on you because I like, I think this, the Toronto team is actually pretty interesting if you, if you watch them, they have guys all over the place, even like

Speaker 1 Agbaji. It's like a 45% three-point shooter.
He's like their ninth man. Like they have skilled players.
I don't understand why they're not better.

Speaker 1 So anyway, you could talk me into him being 38, or you could have talked me into being here.

Speaker 1 And I aired on, i haven't really seen him be an impact guy in a winning team trey young at least has been an impact guy in a winning team jamal murray won a title tyler hero who's number 55 and i think he's been a more efficient better offensive player than all those other guys

Speaker 1 i just would rather have tyler hero at three for 93 than pay the max for scotty barnes

Speaker 1 well look This is probably the wrong time to be ranking Scotty Barnes because it's getting worse. The efficiency stuff continues to decline over a four-year stretch.
He's back under 30% from three.

Speaker 1 I think you always knew that he was a weird player, but in a good way, because he could do so many different things. But,

Speaker 1 you know, back to like the primary scoring thing, like, I don't think he was ever going to be like a Cade.

Speaker 1 And even though Paolo, like, people would get on him with his efficiency stuff, especially last year. Like, that was the big Paolo, Scotty Barnes argument last year.

Speaker 1 It's like, yeah, but are you watching the shots that Paolo is tasked with taking? Right. All these other guys.
Please factor that in. Right.

Speaker 1 Like, watch and see how difficult some of the shots are for this dude because he's left with the ball to bail him out of every one of these possessions.

Speaker 1 So I think if you did like a four-year thing of Scotty, and you know, again, it's your list, so I don't want to sit here and go through 10 straight guys. I'm happy to low two.
No, I'm happy to move.

Speaker 1 No, this is one of the ones I really wanted to hash out. Like, he's averaging 28 and six, 28, and six this season.
He's shooting 27% from three.

Speaker 1 And I guess my fear for him,

Speaker 1 and this would actually be a good outcome for his career, but there was that Iguadala stretch in Philly when he was miscast as the lead guy who's like, I'm going to be the guy who carries our offense at the end of games and I'm our number one guy.

Speaker 1 And guess what? The team never won. And then once that got repositioned, as like, no, I'm actually an awesome, overqualified number three guy or number four guy.

Speaker 1 And I'm going to guard the best guy on the other team. And I'm going to learn learn how to hit three-point shot.
And I'm just like completely additive. And then he found his destiny.

Speaker 1 I wonder if that's Scotty Barnes. I wonder if he's just missed cast right now.
Is we're going to run our offense through Scotty Barnes.

Speaker 1 I don't think you're going to win games if you're running the offense through him, at least the player he is now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but the thing is, I think his playmaking is actually pretty good, but it's just, we talked about Toronto this summer. It's like, look at who they're paying.

Speaker 1 Look how much they're paying all these guys. There's nights where I like R.J.
Barrett, but it feels like everybody's a slot up too high on a priority list for a basketball team.

Speaker 1 It's like a movie where they couldn't find the guy to put on the poster, and it's a bunch of character actors and role players. And it's like, ah,

Speaker 1 I don't know. I kind of wish we had Nick Cage in this one.

Speaker 1 If you were Lawrence Frank in Toronto called and offered Scotty Barnes for Norm Powell, you're not saying no.

Speaker 1 As a straight-up deal, though, like Scotty's making

Speaker 1 mid-40s, but that's part of the straight-by thing. Norm's making 17 million a year, averaging 24 points a game.
So you have to factor in the salary. Do I want to pay Scotty Barnes 45 or Norm Powell

Speaker 1 17, whatever the numbers are?

Speaker 1 That's where this gets hard. Because if I'm paying Scotty the number I'm paying him, I only have money to pay two and a half guys that much money.
Right. So now I'm all in.

Speaker 1 He's got to be one of my best two guys on a team trying to win the title. And I don't know if he's that guy yet.
Do you think Miami would say no to Scotty Barnes for Tyler Hero?

Speaker 1 I do.

Speaker 1 Really? When you factor in the salaries, yeah. If I'd rather pay Tyler Hero 30 million.

Speaker 1 But you might be right. That's why we're doing this.
My fear is that because the numbers are down the way that they are and

Speaker 1 you know what?

Speaker 1 Even if we didn't like Toronto, which we both didn't like Toronto this summer, and the record bears it out, but you're right.

Speaker 1 Like there are some nights with them where I'll go, oh, like RJ's having a big night.

Speaker 1 He'd be like, oh, this is why they wanted Purdle back, you know, but they've, they've also had a really disjoint, like they haven't had much consistency for long stretches this season of having a bunch of guys be available too.

Speaker 1 Would you, do you think the Celtics would trade Derek White for Scotty Burns?

Speaker 1 If Ainge were there, yeah, because Ainge would just go, give me the potential talent ceiling.

Speaker 1 But you're taking on like 15 million extra a year. Yeah, well, then now we're talking second apron.
Now you're second apron. But that's second apron's a part of this, though.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but that's a different trade.

Speaker 1 See, I don't think there's any way.

Speaker 1 Whenever we're doing this exercise, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 If right now is like the only time in the last couple years that we would say Miami would turn down Scotty Barnes for Tyler Hero is that when we're making that statement, okay.

Speaker 1 I'm going to move him down and I'm going to put him in a new spot.

Speaker 1 And I actually have a better category. You talked me into it, I'll move him up 10 spots.
And I might be wrong. I will fully admit I might be too glass, half empty.

Speaker 1 The numbers are a couple guys in the league. I'm a little too glass, half empty on.

Speaker 1 Look, you want to run the numbers on it.

Speaker 1 It just, I was like, man.

Speaker 1 And maybe it's because I've been so used to the Paolo-Scotty argument and like they're 50 slots apart on this one. And it's not like I want Scotty over Paolo, but I was like, damn, 50 slots.

Speaker 1 Well, Paolo's another one that I wasn't sure the right ranking for him. All right.
So we'll go 59 Hardin, 58, Trey Young, 56, Jamal, or 57, Jamal Murray, 56 Hero, and then 55 Isaiah Hartenstein,

Speaker 1 who is just a winning player on a good contract. And I value what he does.
When he's out there, his team plays better.

Speaker 1 And I just feel like they wouldn't trade him. I think he has an incredible amount of value for them.
And

Speaker 1 that's that. Is Trey too low?

Speaker 1 Which way? Would you put him higher into the 40s or would you put him backwards?

Speaker 1 Because he's got a lot of intrinsic value to the Hawks and to the franchise as like their guy.

Speaker 1 And they built a pretty nice set of assets around him that complement what he does, you know? But I also, I'm not sure what his trade value would be around the league.

Speaker 1 Well, it wasn't very good this summer. It certainly wasn't.

Speaker 1 There was a big piece on the athletic that spoke directly to that.

Speaker 1 And I know that like as two guys that have caught the brunt of shit from Atlanta, I wouldn't even just say it's fans, it's like media members. It was like, Trey was their guy.

Speaker 1 And then you're like, okay, did you see this piece where they basically said, we need to be completely different with you? Yeah.

Speaker 1 That should matter.

Speaker 1 Right. And so

Speaker 1 you've seen it. You've seen it this year.

Speaker 1 You know, whether it's DeAndre being better in his role and Jalen taking on

Speaker 1 such a huge part of the offense, like I think it was a little alarming that it took this many years for them to say, hey, Trey, you know what would be really cool is when you have the ball, throw it up ahead to see if there's an opportunity to attack.

Speaker 1 Like kind of like that half court transition. You got four of them.
You can use them at any time. It's not

Speaker 1 that line, you can give them the ball before you cross that line.

Speaker 1 Like, no shit.

Speaker 1 And so, look, all that stuff was in there. And they were like, they need to reevaluate what this is.
I mean, it's not like he's taking 12 shots a game as opposed to 20.

Speaker 1 He's only down down like a couple shots there. The assist numbers are huge.
There was also another piece. Like, I'm sorry that I'm just reading it.

Speaker 1 And I was sort of just laughing as I read all these quotes. It was like, you know, I don't need to just hang on to the basketball and wait for the assist play.

Speaker 1 I can pass it to someone else who then can move the ball around a little bit. Oh, it's like

Speaker 1 you think so, Dr. Bugadette's quote.
Right. So

Speaker 1 I've, you know, we both sneaky liked this roster for a while, and I like it even more.

Speaker 1 I guess I'll never understand understand the Okangu thing of like why every time I would watch, I'd be like, so Clint's still the better option there and then they made that change.

Speaker 1 Yeah, every three weeks Okangua looks like Bill Russell in like 1963.

Speaker 1 It's got to mean something.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I guess

Speaker 1 I wanted to put him in this list and I didn't, couldn't find a spot for him. But you were kind of doing the top 85.

Speaker 1 Hey, next group. Okay.
This is a one-person group. It's called Sorry I Can't Answer Your Call.
I'm Taking a Long, Sad Walk. Please leave a message after the beep.

Speaker 1 And that is number 54, Joellen Biede. I have no idea what Joellen Bied's trade value.
You could tell me that Philly has to attach picks to trade him.

Speaker 1 You could tell me people would offer picks for him. I have no idea.

Speaker 1 You could tell me anything. I would believe it.

Speaker 1 And you don't know either.

Speaker 1 I don't, but I wasn't mad about it. I didn't go, this is outrageous.
He doesn't play.

Speaker 1 No, and I remember like last year when it was, I think it was, we already talked about it when we did the Denver show, and I mentioned the Zach Lowe part of it.

Speaker 1 I wasn't being critical of Zach, but it was just this accepted thing because of who Mbe did Ben. He'd won the MVP that it was like he was in the top five.

Speaker 1 And I don't think you just automatically lose your spot when you're not healthy. And maybe even if you miss a year.
But with him.

Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't know what you do with him.
I'd love to know what the contract negotiation was, like why they were in such a hurry to extend him.

Speaker 1 And it certainly took him, what, 12 seconds to go done? 12. I think it was four.

Speaker 1 I would, if I want to sign up. I was like, can I docu sign that right now? Can you just send that to me right now? I got a docu sign.
I have it open. Don't send a docu sign.
I'll drive to you.

Speaker 1 I'll bring my own Sharpie.

Speaker 1 I don't know what his value is, man. I just don't know that I'd want to be in business because why is it supposed to get better?

Speaker 1 And for all the shit that he's taken right now for missing games and the Denver history he's brought back up, I'd ask the people that are mad at him for not, did you watch when he was playing?

Speaker 1 And like, you can come at me with the box score and all that stuff. The guy doesn't move.
Just

Speaker 1 go watch the golden state game if you're wondering. And he got his numbers.
He got his numbers. So you'll say, oh, no, what are you guys talking about? No, watch the golden state game.

Speaker 1 Just watch him on defense.

Speaker 1 If he's going to move that badly, my point is I don't even blame him for not playing.

Speaker 1 He was clearly marginalized when he was out there, and now people are mad that he's not playing anymore.

Speaker 1 And I kind of look at that stretch of going, well, if that's how bad it was going to look, then he actually needs to, as frustrating as it is for everybody, he needs to be missing games to not look like that anymore because that's not going to work either.

Speaker 1 It was handled horrendously by the team. It was handled horrendously by Embiid.

Speaker 1 And it's gotten worse the whole season. And

Speaker 1 I know a bunch of Sixer fans. All of them are in that zone of just like, why aren't you just telling us what's going on? Why the secrecy? Why are you hiding things? Why is this so murky at all times?

Speaker 1 It's, you know, it just sucks the life out of they may not know the franchise, the fans, but then say you don't know because they tried to say in the beginning of the season, they tried to make it seem like, ah, he's doing some

Speaker 1 knee management stuff. And he clearly is not going to be able to play three games in a row.

Speaker 1 And if he does, you know, the other thing, when he plays well and they're like strategically picking these games, or it's like, hey, Charlotte tonight, you want to play? Yeah, Charlotte. Great.

Speaker 1 All right. Let me let me give that a whirl.

Speaker 1 But I don't think, does anybody think he's going to be able to play four straight playoff rounds?

Speaker 1 I don't know why. Do you think he can play three? Do you think he played two? What's going to be better about this two months from now? I don't even know how you would project to be like, yeah, no,

Speaker 1 it'll just be fine.

Speaker 1 The Olympics game was clearly a huge priority to him. And I think part of it was you're not going to win a title, like, you know, win a gold.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know, he had some big moments for him. But for somebody who just doesn't ever seem to be right, like, was that,

Speaker 1 was that the best use of your time? Also, we've been basketball fans for a long time. We've seen some things.

Speaker 1 And the direction this has gone, we just have

Speaker 1 a mental history of other guys where we've watched this kind of arc or lack of an arc.

Speaker 1 And it's like, C-Web, no, once the microfracture surgery goes through, it'll be fine. He should be, you know.

Speaker 1 The only one I can remember where the guy was gone and it seemed bleak and then he came back and was really good was Amari Stadamire,

Speaker 1 especially in the 2010 season and that first stretch with the Knicks in 2011, where it seemed like he had hit that point where you just could never rely on him again. And then he did rally back.

Speaker 1 And Bede's carrying, I don't know, 50, 60, 70 extra pounds and more inches and everything.

Speaker 1 And I just think Yao Ming was another one. Yeah, his feet aren't good.
And then all of a sudden he was just out of basketball.

Speaker 1 I think with these tall guys, when it goes in this direction, the history of the league says it keeps going that direction. Samson was another one in the late 80s, got traded to Golden State.

Speaker 1 Oh, this will go great. Oh, new team, new, and his knees are better.
And he was out of the league in three years.

Speaker 1 So the fact that he's just not playing basketball that much is historically a horrible sign.

Speaker 1 Next. Do you think there's a trade? Real quick, though, did you think of any trade that you would go, this could actually be something? Because I don't even know how you would start the conversation.

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 1 I think I mentioned this on a pod a couple weeks ago. It's an all-time bullet dodge by the Knicks because I do think they would have gone all in for him last summer.

Speaker 1 And instead, they went down this Bridges Towns path instead, which turned out to be a way better thing. But

Speaker 1 I think they would have given up the goods for him. I don't know if there's another team, though.
I don't think there's a, you'd have to have a huge salary that goes the other way.

Speaker 1 It would have to be a pretty desperate team. And it would honestly be irresponsible to trade for him with the contract he has when you don't know if he can play or not.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't wouldn't do that if I was an owner. Would you trade Bill for him?

Speaker 1 So Beal, three years left this year and the next two, but I get out of the Embiid business?

Speaker 1 I mean, would Ishbia do that? Of course.

Speaker 1 But that doesn't solve my Philly problem because I'm taking on another bad contract. I'd rather just keep my fingers crossed with Embiid.
Next group, very valuable assets on very good good contracts.

Speaker 1 Number 53, Nas Reed, who's like making $12 million a year. I don't understand

Speaker 1 he's one of the best contracts of the league. Lou Dort, another one who makes nothing.
Norm Powell, Austin Reeves,

Speaker 1 who really should have listened to us when we were telling him to sign with the Spurs. Derek White, Jared Allen.
That's

Speaker 1 for 48. Spurs didn't listen.

Speaker 1 Next group is valuable assets on not as good contracts. Move Scotty Barnes here to 47, thanks to his agent, Ryan Rascillo.

Speaker 1 Shangoon at 46, Markinen at 45, OG and Anobi at 44.

Speaker 1 Um, I just don't love the contracts, but love the player. Markinen is the one that I think has been the weirdest one this season because

Speaker 1 he's just his stats aren't the same. You're paying him as a franchise guy who can, uh,

Speaker 1 you know, wait, last year he was winning games and beating teams,

Speaker 1 having best player in the floor games. Hasn't really been the same this year, but I also wonder if he's just on cruise control because they're tanking.
Any thoughts?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm a little worried because it kind of gets back to that thing of like, oh, if you've shown us some really high-level stuff, then I expect that you're going to get back to it a little bit.

Speaker 1 And he's 28.

Speaker 1 I would say there's some Keontae George possessions where everybody else is watching that I don't love. And then Sexton is talented enough to get his.

Speaker 1 So now do they have like all these other dudes in hell when they bring in Sensiball and they bring like there's just a lot of guys like it's go time.

Speaker 1 And is Lowry

Speaker 1 collateral because it feels like there's less opportunities for him to initiate? Or is that something that people have figured out with him?

Speaker 1 Yeah, who's the point? Who's his buddy? Who's the point guard on this team who's looking out for him and getting him good shots? I'm going to say nobody.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that would be the case.

Speaker 1 I don't like I still think that there is value for him.

Speaker 1 And but it did, I think it's a fair point in that last year it didn't matter what, whatever is con, whatever to the last dollar we can pay this guy is what he deserves and what he would get paid.

Speaker 1 And everybody else would be happy to give him that in a free agent world.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 this season maybe makes you think of him as more expensive. Well, and also it's two guys Golden State went after last year and didn't get him and Paul George.

Speaker 1 And for what they would have had to give up for marketing, maybe

Speaker 1 you're relieved a little bit if you're Golden State. Would have been a ton of draft picks.
You're giving up Wiggins. You're putting Kaminga in there.

Speaker 1 And for what you've seen from marketing this year, not that he's not a good player, but I just don't know what's your destiny if you're Golden State.

Speaker 1 If you're built around Curry and Marketing, I don't know where that takes you. You're not in any different of a spot than like Phoenix is.

Speaker 1 Group H,

Speaker 1 always the toughest guy to figure out. This group's called, you realize he has a no trade clause clause and he's 40, right? It's LeBron James.
I don't, they're not trading him.

Speaker 1 I don't think anyone's trading for him, and it's a useless exercise to talk about him. All right.

Speaker 1 Next group. Let me save you some time.
Fuck no.

Speaker 1 Really fun group here. Number 42.

Speaker 1 Castle. 41, Trey Murphy.
40, Josh Hart. 39, Dyson Daniels.
38, Desmond Bain. 37, Darius Garland.
36, Jalen Suggs. We're getting into some real trade assets now.

Speaker 1 I'm fine to admit that I'm overrating Castle if you think I am. I just really like him.
I'm all in.

Speaker 1 I have a house on Castle Island already. I'm in.

Speaker 1 I'm completely in on that guy. And the question would be, should he be that much higher than the other guys in the draft?

Speaker 1 In my opinion, yes. I think he's going to be a guy who could be a top three guy on a title team.
And I think he's a really nice

Speaker 1 person for the Wemby experience as we travel through it for the next seven, eight years.

Speaker 1 That's a guy who can win titles with them so i might over i'd love no i you know i don't i don't think it's because here's here's an example that i would use like when we went back and looked at like kaminga right you had kaminga 83 and you had toughest omission tar eason

Speaker 1 i would look at like okay I've seen the ups and downs of the Kaminga thing for multiple seasons.

Speaker 1 So the idea that it's just going to turn this corner into something like really steady and that he could be a number two scoring option on an okay team for 30 million an hour.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's now starting to feel like a bit of a reach with Kamingo, where with Tari Eason, even though it's raw or whatever, like he's out there just wreaking havoc on basketball games.

Speaker 1 And because I haven't really gotten to see the full form version of Tari Eason, like he would still be more valuable to me just based on the unknown.

Speaker 1 And then we know this game enough that the unknown always trumps the known.

Speaker 1 And that's why Castle is a hangup, even if it's not like the best vertical, you know, because whenever we see somebody young that's this good, like, what if he can do this? What if he can do this?

Speaker 1 I don't know if he's ever going to be able to shoot it consistently, but I do know this. The guy is, what, two years removed from high school?

Speaker 1 And he goes at like 30-year-old dudes like they stole from him. He looks to fucking kill guys.

Speaker 1 So that mentality and all of that, like having a dude out there that is completely unafraid this early, like there's plenty of young guys who are like, okay, he's just uncomfortable and he needs to kind of get through this.

Speaker 1 There's none of that with him. So even if the full arsenal of like all the offensive polish of even a guy like Vassell,

Speaker 1 I have no problem with him being this high because teams don't trade guys like that.

Speaker 1 I agree.

Speaker 1 I'm really interested to see what happens with them next two months and with San Antonio in general because I actually think their record's lower than maybe it should be.

Speaker 1 We all went under on them or I went under on them. Maybe you went over on them before the season.
No, I'm pretty sure I went over because it was

Speaker 1 a jump. I think, did you go over? No, I went under.
I went under. It was just because I thought the West was too good and I didn't see the path for them to be in the high 30s.

Speaker 1 But they're in a lot of these games and Wemby's terrifying. And if Castle gets better down the stretch,

Speaker 1 who knows? Trey Murphy, I'm putting at 41 because I liked last year for him. I think they fucked him this year with the contract extension.

Speaker 1 Couldn't really work out all summer. Didn't know if he was getting it.
Then he gets it, got hurt.

Speaker 1 But if you've watched him the last couple of weeks, that's just the kind of guy you want on your team.

Speaker 1 I think we would have seen this earlier from him, too. One with health and just more opportunity.

Speaker 1 It's starting to feel undeniable with him. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And now I, I kind of just don't want some of these guys to get in his way because I think there's an awesome version of him that's just waiting to happen here. And I love him.

Speaker 1 So if we ran a team, we'd be calling Griffin every 48 hours. You're like, I don't know.
Maybe get too many guys. What about Murphy? Josh Hart, I was shocked.

Speaker 1 That I had him this high, but the guy plays 42 minutes a game, has crazy stats, and he's indispensable on a top five team, and he's on a good contract. So I had to put him there.

Speaker 1 Daniels, we both love Bane, Garland, Suggs. No arguments on any of those.

Speaker 1 This next group, it's three people. It's called If You Tell Shams, I'll Deny It to the Death, but I am absolutely unequivocally 100% listening.

Speaker 1 Number 35, Zion Williamson, number 34, Lamella Ball, and number 33, Bam out of bio. And I think Bam would be the surprise in that one, but I'm just prepared for anything with Miami.

Speaker 1 I don't know what they do, whether they blow it up. Who knows? Like, is Miami hanging up if you're like, we're here to talk about Bam? I just don't think they are.

Speaker 1 I think everyone on their team is available. I might hang up on you and end the pod right now for having Bam in a group with Zion and Lamello.
I listen, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 I could also put him in the next group. Just put him in another group.
He shouldn't be in that group with those two guys. Okay, I'm going to move him down just to keep you happy.
So it's so just

Speaker 1 ranking number 30. That's fine.
But he's in the next group, which is called Sorry, We're Pot Committed Here. Okay.

Speaker 1 Zion and Lamello.

Speaker 1 I would trade for Zion. I would totally talk myself into he's in the worst possible franchise with the worst trainers and a weird fan base and a bad city for him.
If we just bring him here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was the weird fan base. That's what

Speaker 1 I'm just, I'm saying if you're talking yourself into, oh, if we could just get him, we can mold him.

Speaker 1 He's the kind of guy that gets GMs fired where you're like, no, no, we got to do this because once we get him and then three months later, he pulls a hamstring and he puts on 20 pounds and you're like, oh my God, I'm going to lose my job.

Speaker 1 Why did I do this?

Speaker 1 That's him.

Speaker 1 I agree that I think there's a second team market for him just based on history. This is like Darko and

Speaker 1 Orlando giving up a lottery pick for him. It's like, well, this guy went really good.
Darko. Do you remember this?

Speaker 1 I do, but wow, I didn't know it was that bad. No, it is is because Zion's done more than Darko ever did.

Speaker 1 I was thinking it was more like the Chris Weber Mitch Richmond type of trade where you're like, oh, you're giving us Mitch Richmond, even though he's 33. Fine.

Speaker 1 That's a better one based on production because like the Zion thing was really good last year.

Speaker 1 And it's kind of like a little bit like the Embiid thing in that you go, well, if the market is this bad for this guy that I know I probably shouldn't be in business with, I'm still not going to trade him now.

Speaker 1 And then I think on the other side of it, not that this lasted very long, but the idea that because of the contract, like would they waive him? You go, no, no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Speaker 1 There's a market. There's still a market based on like the second team going.
Like, if it were Pierce and Antoine Walker, you would be calling into EEI being like, we should, we should get Zion.

Speaker 1 Like, that's the kind of structure of a team where you go, they don't really have that much hope. And like, I'm going to be excited.
And it's going to be cool to have Zion in

Speaker 1 Golden State right now. When we're talking about like, Hail Mary, we have to do something crazy moves

Speaker 1 saying fuck it and going after Zion that that qualifies because if you strike oil with it,

Speaker 1 it's an amazing trade. If all the good things from the trade happen, it's the best trade anyone could make this decade.

Speaker 1 And yet, it's probably way more likely all the other stuff would happen.

Speaker 1 It's one of the toughest trade assets in a long time.

Speaker 1 Okay, but in a vacuum, like if you were running a team and let's I wouldn't trade for them.

Speaker 1 Okay, but if somebody said you have to have one, like your owner calls, hey, I just bought the team. It's

Speaker 1 Bezos. Bezos is like, we need to make a statement here early, Bill.
Finally going to give you GM job. We're also going to have like behind the scenes.

Speaker 1 You think hard knocks is all access. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We're going to be waking up with you. Okay.
Right. 24 hours.
Running the team. 24-hour VR.

Speaker 1 Right. So.

Speaker 1 You need to trade for one of the two, Lamello or Zion. I'd trade for Lamello.

Speaker 1 Lamello,

Speaker 1 that's another one where you can, he's a get coaches and GMs fired guy.

Speaker 1 His destiny, I made this joke many times, but his destiny might end up being an awesome basketball reference page and,

Speaker 1 you know, Twitter, TikTok, Snapchat, one-minute clips of this guy was a problem, and that might be it.

Speaker 1 But you watch him on certain nights, and he just seems completely unstoppable and like he can make any shot and you could get seduced by it.

Speaker 1 If it was him versus Zion, at least I know he's probably a better bet to play.

Speaker 1 Yeah, which isn't even a great bet. I thought the all-star voting thing was really interesting.

Speaker 1 And then when I went to look at how it was happening, when you sorted his position for available people to vote on, he's the first option because he was leading everybody in scoring.

Speaker 1 So I was like, I wonder if that would happen.

Speaker 1 I got to give Tim McMahon credit on this one because he was on with Wind Horse and Bontemps and he was like, well, his style of play has been in preparation of the all-star game. So

Speaker 1 he's a perfect fit if he's named a starter. He ended up not being a starter.
He shouldn't have been a starter based on what Mitchell, Garland, Brunson, all these guys have done.

Speaker 1 I think between the two,

Speaker 1 here's the issue. It wasn't just the bam issue.
I think that Zion and Lamello should be behind Group G.

Speaker 1 I think they should just be behind it because if somebody

Speaker 1 would LeBron

Speaker 1 between LeBron and those other guys. All right.
Right. Because, I mean, even though you can't trade Trey Murphy for Zion, if Trey Murphy were offered for Zion,

Speaker 1 the team says, yeah, we'll turn the page on this. So the Pelicans call the Spurs and they say, we'll give you Zion for Castle.
And the Spurs say, no way.

Speaker 1 The smart answer is no way. Okay, I think you're right.
That's a good seat. This is why you're a great trade value conciliary.
That's a good note.

Speaker 1 I'm like, Mad Dog. That's a good job by you, Ryan.
That's just a great job right there.

Speaker 1 SVP and Rosello.

Speaker 1 Put me to sleep.

Speaker 1 It was such a sad day in my career. I was in the car driving home, listening to Mad Dog.

Speaker 1 They said it on the air. Mad Dog shit on Van Pelton.
And I was like, I would leave ESPN right at four. I'd be driving to the gym.
I would listen to a little god leab.

Speaker 1 I'd check out what the dog was doing. And dog was like, SVP and

Speaker 1 Put me to sleep.

Speaker 1 There's no energy on that show. And I was just like, fuck.
I was like, you're going to do another Eagles rejoining Scottsdale. I was pissed.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the good thing is, the good thing is you let slights like that, you just forget about them overnight. Don't think about them again.
Yeah, like it never happened.

Speaker 1 We're going to take one more break and do the top 33.

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Speaker 1 All right, 33 guys left. This is Group E.
Sorry, we're pot committed here.

Speaker 1 Rossella demanded Bam be put in this group and get away from Zion of the Mello. So Bam, thanks you.
He's 33.

Speaker 1 Mikhail Bridges, Kyrie Irving, Jalen Brown, who was in the teens, I think, three months ago, and I think has dropped. And we can talk about that in a second.
Franz Wagner, Kevin Durant,

Speaker 1 and then Sabonis. And there's a couple of the contracts here.
Jalen Brown, four years left, 236.

Speaker 1 Kevin Durant, two years, 106. That's this year, next year.
Sabonis, four for 186. A little pricey but uh

Speaker 1 but that what do you think of that order attabio bridges irving brown wagner durant and then number 27 subonis

Speaker 1 is that the right group for durant

Speaker 1 it is nudge them up i think it is the age and and yeah team performance but you know if if durant were offered to the pacers or haliburton would they just go yep no problem and we'll just have nemhart initiate everything

Speaker 1 i don't think the pacers do it it's too hard to find a guy who's like, I love being Indiana's signature guy. I think it would take a lot for them to trade him.

Speaker 1 Easy Duramp may just not be into it later on. All right, that's fine.

Speaker 1 I love this group because I think this is where it really starts getting hard. This is where all the years, all the tape for you, Bill, is showing up because

Speaker 1 Kyrie,

Speaker 1 this is maybe the highest he's been in a long time. Listen,

Speaker 1 I'm a second chance guy. I'm a third chance guy, and I'm even a fourth chance guy.

Speaker 1 Kyrie,

Speaker 1 not one of my favorites for a long time, and uh, he really won me over the last couple years. He's fine, he's a late bloomer, but uh,

Speaker 1 I don't know. I think this is the right area for him because if he's your second best player, you can make the NBA finals.
We saw that in June,

Speaker 1 yeah, mic'd up,

Speaker 1 just leadership pouring into your ears,

Speaker 1 coherent press conferences

Speaker 1 hasn't done really anything goofy in about a year and a half, two years,

Speaker 1 right? Well, yeah, I think we're coming up on what, two years of him being two anniversary? That should have been, that would have been a good anniversary for E.S. Penn to celebrate.

Speaker 1 It'd be a good 30 for 30.

Speaker 1 You know, the Jalen thing for Durant,

Speaker 1 you think Boston says no?

Speaker 1 I think they'd have to, well, that's why I had Durant 28 and Brown 30, because I think if you're Boston and you have the chance to get out of the last two years of Jalen's contract and replace him with somebody that would keep you as competitive as you are right now, you'd at least have to have meetings about it.

Speaker 1 If you're Phoenix,

Speaker 1 why am I doing that? Like, I'm already like all the way in with this KD Booker thing.

Speaker 1 I can't really deviate from that at this point. It just feels low for Jalen.
And I think because of this year, he's getting dinged too much. Although you put him in the 20s?

Speaker 1 Yeah, but see, but I like the group that he's in because subonis is incredibly like like the stats with him every single time i don't even know that i blame the guy from turkey for voting him for mvp um i know he was wasn't from greece or something like that like he might have just pulled up and gone like look at this plus minus shit like are you kidding like that has to be the mvp 15 rebounds a game yeah the jam thing four four years for 236 and the last two years in the 60s when we're in a second apron league now it's just it's it's really hard to pay your second best player that contract.

Speaker 1 I think that's why he has to be dinked. It's not totally his fault.
Okay, but

Speaker 1 like we were doing it before. And so what was the Jalen deal? Five years what?

Speaker 1 Five years almost, I mean, it was like 280, 285, something like that. Now we're four years left at 236.

Speaker 1 So it's just a crazy number. Because we were talking,

Speaker 1 we were talking OG and Anobi. We didn't really get into it.

Speaker 1 there's part of me that will always think, like, you got to pay OG and Anobi five years to 12,

Speaker 1 fully guaranteed, and give him a player option on the last year. And, you know, statistically, there's some stuff with him.

Speaker 1 You're like, how does, but when you watch him, you appreciate him a little bit more.

Speaker 1 Certainly, when he's been more available, which I think has been a fair knock on him in the past, there, but you're right. Like, it's still 75 million light of what you're paying Jalen.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's 49.2 this year, 53, 57, 61,

Speaker 1 64 in the 28, 29 season.

Speaker 1 That's

Speaker 1 alarming for anybody. Right, but the cap's going to go up and it's 65 million, as crazy as that number is.
It's 65 million for him at 32. He's going to age well.
And at that point,

Speaker 1 it's under 32% of the actual cap hit.

Speaker 1 I hope he ages well. I don't like the fact that he's fucking jacked.
I think he needs to unjack.

Speaker 1 I think he needs to unjack by about seven pounds of muscle after seeing him in person for two days. I was alarmed by how jacked he was.

Speaker 1 He looked like he should be with Jesse Ventura and Schwarzenegger and Carl Weathers in the Predator movie. That's like how jacked he was.
I just don't like that's

Speaker 1 fall forward. Is Kevin Willis' first team all time?

Speaker 1 Looks like he could play right now. Like I love, that's always the Fred Lynn thing when he stops by Nessen once a year.
It's just

Speaker 1 mandatory.

Speaker 1 mandatory that anybody that ages well, he can be 104. You'd be like, that guy probably gets you six innings right now.
Right. You just have to face to be skinny.

Speaker 1 It's just if you're skinny, they say it. And a tan.
Oh, you're, you don't have a pop alley. You're tan.
You can play right now. Uh,

Speaker 1 group D,

Speaker 1 seven guys, budding franchise guys.

Speaker 1 Tyrese Maxey, 26. Halliburton, Gulp, Carl Anthony Towns, number 24.

Speaker 1 Job Morant, Brandon Miller, Brandon Miller, Jalen Johnson, and Chet Holmgren, who would have been higher, but he's had two major injuries already, and he's like 22. And I had to ding him.

Speaker 1 Healthy Chet Holmgren, I think, would be higher. Anyone on that list jump out to you in the wrong way or the right way?

Speaker 1 Towns has been great for them. Completely won the trade.
Still going to be a little bit worried about what the defensive alignment stuff might be.

Speaker 1 But when they're rolling offensively, it's, I mean, it's just an awesome one through five.

Speaker 1 The contract for towns: 49.2, 53.1, 57, 61.

Speaker 1 I mean, he looks a little hairy, but he's been awesome, and there's no way he's not a top 30 trade asset. Where he is exactly, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Nope. I don't think when, you know, as we get to the rest of the list that I've seen here, so there was nothing.
I mean, I always could pick at anything.

Speaker 1 I guess I'm just kind of wondering, like, what is Jaw right now? Well, that was the one.

Speaker 1 Is Ja too high on this list? And should he be backwards? Just because

Speaker 1 Ja doesn't play a lot.

Speaker 1 And it's like these one-off, then he plays two, then he's off one, then he's off three, then he's playing three more. It just seems like he's not available a lot.

Speaker 1 And it makes me nervous that that's my franchise guy.

Speaker 1 Because it's true. When Tatum doesn't play, I'm like, what happened to Tatum? He's not playing? Like, I just assume he's going to play every game.
With Ja, it's like, whoa, Ja played a month in a row?

Speaker 1 Really? He's missed 19 games this year. He played nine games last year.
And we know last year was a mess for. But they've been 19 games that he missed that have been spread out.

Speaker 1 They're sprinkled out like two, three. No, he's definitely a.

Speaker 1 Because Memphis is on whatever priority, like it's easily a top 10 team for me now because I just am like falling in love with Jaron Jackson in a new way.

Speaker 1 Like I always appreciated him, but now like this year, I get like excited to kind of see like, I wonder how they're going to use him. Um, I love Jaron Jackson, so there you go.

Speaker 1 And you're right, like, there's nights where I go, oh, like, shit, Jazz in playing again tonight.

Speaker 1 And so, when you look at his style of play, and I know he's talked about, like, I'm just not going to be doing the same type of stuff that he's in the second year of a five-year deal for $197.2 million, but it makes sense.

Speaker 1 He's in two major incidents. Don't forget to include that part.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 This is a lot like some of these other guys that we talk about, whether it's Trey's value to Atlanta specifically, Lamello's value to Charlotte, New Orleans going, Look, if Zion's not worth anything on the trade market, we might as well just ride this out again and see that if he's healthy, because the best version of him, like, we can be a team that, you know, I don't know if dangerous is the wrong word here, but you understand, like, at least like a

Speaker 1 path of if we have all of our guys, and you know, we can get frustrated, we can get impatient, but so many of these teams just kind of default to patience that Jaws, Jaws, probably a hang-up on almost 90%.

Speaker 1 There's probably a few guys ahead of him that are hang-ups, but I also can see people making an argument that at 23 he's too high because of availability.

Speaker 1 If Memphis called Philly and said,

Speaker 1 we'll trade you Job Moran for Tyrese Maxi straight up right now,

Speaker 1 I don't think Philly does it.

Speaker 1 Which tells me I probably should add Ja behind Tyrese Maxi.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and Maxie, you know, has missed a little time this year, but that was the, those are the two that I put next to each other. The contract's the same.

Speaker 1 Maxie's only on the first year, but it's five years, 204, like I said, versus five years, 197.

Speaker 1 Maxi played 60 games last year, 70 games a year before that. He's played 37 to 44 this year.
His shooting numbers are down, but really that to me is a product of him going

Speaker 1 KM beads out, and I'm just going to force the issue. And he's taking a million shots.
He's taking more bad shots than he normally would.

Speaker 1 So I don't look at his declining shooting this this year as this alarming thing. I think it was just he's been good at shot difficulty.
Yeah. So maybe it's Halliburton 26, Ja 25, Maxie 24, Towns 23.

Speaker 1 I think I think that's the order. Because

Speaker 1 I think Maxie is a little more of a hang-up than Ja is from Memphis, just because of the lack of availability and some of the stuff that's happened. Are you okay with Brandon Miller at 22?

Speaker 1 I mean, I could ding it because of the hand surgery, but based on everything you've read about it, is that it's pretty straightforward.

Speaker 1 And Jalen Johnson, 21, you're good with.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I love Jalen Johnson. Yeah, me too.
Okay. Next group: three guys.
Group C. Only if they made us do it.
Number 19, De'Aaron Fox. Number 18, Steph Curry.
Number 17, Devin Booker.

Speaker 1 You heard me correctly. Steph Curry, number eight, is 18.

Speaker 1 Here's the case.

Speaker 1 I think you and I are probably among the two biggest Steph Curry fans in the media.

Speaker 1 Seth is probably third.

Speaker 1 Three years, 178 million is the number. He's 36.

Speaker 1 And if he's the best player in a pretty average team, in the old days, that meant the team would have been good to maybe really good. Now it means pretty average.
And that's what we've seen.

Speaker 1 I just think he's, I don't think he's at a completely different point in his career.

Speaker 1 But he's at a slightly different point of his career. This version of Steph Curry right now would not have won the 2022 finals.
I think there's been a slight, slate, slight aging with him.

Speaker 1 But I also don't think they would ever trade him unless he went into the office and said, you guys have to trade me. It's time.

Speaker 1 So it's a tough one. No, when he had the opportunity to talk about the trade market, he did the exact opposite.
Did the exact opposite. Bobby Barks brought it up when we had him on not that long ago.

Speaker 1 And it's like, this is what you want. This is what you want in the face of your franchise.

Speaker 1 This is the person that looks at kind of this lifetime professional relationship of like, hey, what's the best way for me to handle this versus the worst way?

Speaker 1 And the worst way would be like Anthony Davis clearly did it because he learned it from watching LeBron. Yeah.

Speaker 1 The passive aggressive trade request. Our roster is not good enough.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 We need a big man. You have like five big men on your roster.
And I just think, I just think it's a ridiculous way to like operate.

Speaker 1 As if the front office is sitting around and be like, hey, do you guys want to be worse or better? Like, I don't know. What about you? Like, what do you want to do today? Ah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 Let's get lunch and then we'll think about it. And then it's like, oh no, the player said he wants us to get better.
All right. Well, that does it.
Yeah, let's get fine.

Speaker 1 We weren't, we weren't going to do it. We actually wanted to be average.

Speaker 1 But now, and usually that means you're forcing the front office if you have leverage, if you have an upcoming contract, you have all these different things.

Speaker 1 You're probably forcing the front office in ownership into doing something they don't think is the best thing to do long term. And, you know, LeBron's never cared about any of the draft picks anyway.

Speaker 1 So I think Davis is just basically saying the same stuff as him. So steady.
Yeah, they're no lying thing.

Speaker 1 There's, there's not, I don't know, you know, nothing's impossible, but I don't know if that day is ever going to come.

Speaker 1 I only think the

Speaker 1 only thing that would make sense to me would be Charlotte

Speaker 1 if he wanted to like finish his career there. But that's just, you're punting on everything.

Speaker 1 And I, I do think some people feel like relationships are really important and that they would rather spend the rest of their career like

Speaker 1 understanding the impact of like I was on the same team that drafted me. We won titles together.
I ended up retiring with some of the people I played with. I think he cares about that.

Speaker 1 So it's stupid to even have him on a list like this. Booker was an interesting one because I have him 17th.
I don't have him in either of the top two groups. You could make a case that he should be.

Speaker 1 But I just haven't liked that. That team seems super disjointed and unhappy for three straight years and he's the best guy on it.
And at some point,

Speaker 1 you know, he's 28.

Speaker 1 Uh, I just couldn't get there, but I'm also willing to be talked into nudging him up if you think we should. I just think he should be up, man.

Speaker 1 I'm a huge Booker fan, and I think it's been a bit like some of the Steph stuff that we've seen. I think there's certain guys from an efficient standpoint.

Speaker 1 We just talked about it with Maxie, where I can handle the efficiency being dinged a little when I feel like you are tasked with having to get your team out of so many bad possessions.

Speaker 1 And when I watch them, I think he's still,

Speaker 1 he's still the guy I trust the most on that team. So if that's the same thing, let's run through it.
Like, you think of Jalen Williams?

Speaker 1 Well, the Jalen Williams contract thing with OKC, I'm going to lose because of the flexibility. Well, let's go through it.

Speaker 1 Group B, we can go through each guy, and you tell me if any of them would trade this guy for Devin Booker. So I'll move Booker up to Group B.
So he's 17. Number 16, Jalen Williams.

Speaker 1 I don't think they, I think they would rather have Williams on the contract he's on, younger. His age is tied to SGA and Chet and some of the draft picks they have.

Speaker 1 I just think they would rather have Jalen Williams and Booker, as weird as that sounds from a basketball standpoint. It's also a team that doesn't really make trades ever.

Speaker 1 So you're good with that?

Speaker 1 Yeah, the contract, I can't win it.

Speaker 1 Todd. I'd rather have Booker, if just for the basketball player, I'd rather have Booker playing next to SGA right now than Jalen Williams.

Speaker 1 I don't even know how anybody would debate that.

Speaker 1 Hurts being on defense a little bit.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 1 Jalen Williams doing,

Speaker 1 you know, between him and Dort, that's part, I think, what makes their defense so special is they're, everybody on that team can switch in all these good ways. And there's high-end defenders.

Speaker 1 Like SGA is probably the worst defender out of their crunch time guys.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's a mad defender.

Speaker 1 They'll either attack, the other team will attack Wallace if it's a size thing, or they'll go at SGA because it's like the best of the options, you know, so you can avoid Dort or Caruso or even Wiggins, who I think is one of my favorite, like, underrated players in the entire league.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, that's why it's so unfun to talk about OKC trades because it was like, I like all these guys that wouldn't trade. Like, oh, we got to improve the Wiggins spot.
Do you?

Speaker 1 I'd rather like see what I have with Wiggins. And all these guys like playing with each other, which you got to value.
Like, it's really hard to make a trade if you have chemistry like they have.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't touch it.

Speaker 1 You know?

Speaker 1 Thompson at 15.

Speaker 1 It's a really fun basketball trade. Thompson for Booker.

Speaker 1 I just, I'd be terrified to trade Thompson at this point. I just couldn't do it.

Speaker 1 Just from what we've seen in the last five weeks, to me, it's an automatic hangup. I just can't do it.
I don't know what's there. Like there's like the ceiling is opening up and there's like

Speaker 1 real Kawhi potential now. There's Pippin potential now.
There's potential for all-time guys when you watch him.

Speaker 1 This is beyond just, oh, man, that guy's really good. Like, there's, we're at another level of it now.
And everyone can see it. You could see it last night with the Celtics game.

Speaker 1 He was the best guy in the game. He's in a game with Brooks.
It's 10-3s. Tatum's in the game.
Jalen Brown's in the game. And Thompson was the most impactful guy in the game.
So

Speaker 1 I would not trade him.

Speaker 1 I would trade him for Booker. You would? I would.
I think this is where.

Speaker 1 I mean, we raved about him at the beginning, so I don't think anybody's going to, but he's 19% from three for his career. Kawhi was 38% his rookie year.
I think he was 38% his second year, too.

Speaker 1 But how many years was Kawhi in college? At least three, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so Thompson's

Speaker 1 Thompson's at the stage right now where basically Kawhi was a rookie in the Spurs.

Speaker 1 I look at Booker as a top 10 bucket-getter, and we've seen it in the playoffs. We've seen it deeper in the playoffs.
He's 28 years old, and he's a motherfucker in the best possible way

Speaker 1 and not in a way that like distracts him from the task at hand of the game, but I don't think he's afraid of anybody.

Speaker 1 I think when his level of like shot creation and scoring in huge moments is there's not 10 players in the league that are better than him at that. You know, I'm going to, I'll move him to 16.

Speaker 1 I'll move Thompson to 17 and I'll move Jalen Williams to 15. My only fear with Thompson is this was, it's like, remember that five weeks when I'm, when Thompson was like,

Speaker 1 looked like the greatest prospect of any swing man in 10 years? And then, and then he shot 9% from three in March. So I'm not, I mean, he might be, I don't want to put too much pressure on him.

Speaker 1 Right, but it's kind of the weight of like, how often would we have ever said no to Booker for a Men Thompson? And it's like,

Speaker 1 every day except for the last 12. Yeah, it's fair.

Speaker 1 14, Cade Cunningham.

Speaker 1 Congrats, by the way.

Speaker 1 I know you've been accepting kudos and plaudits for the last couple months. You never gave up.

Speaker 1 You were, I think, driving the Cade bandwagon. It's been really special this year, and his team's not good.

Speaker 1 You know, they have some fun role players, they have some fun veterans, but the amount of responsibility he has game to game, this is the argument with LaMella Ball.

Speaker 1 The LaMella Ball defenders would say, well, his team's not good. Well, Cade's team's not good either.

Speaker 1 And that team is going toe-to-toe night after night and has a chance to be a pretty fun playing team. I like watching him, and he's been really special.
So he's number 14 for me.

Speaker 1 To carry this offense back to the first part of this, to be able to do this, I still would like to know over under, if I said it at five and a half, number of games Monty Williams has watched of the Pistons.

Speaker 1 This should be taking the over or the under.

Speaker 1 Way under.

Speaker 1 I think he's on an island somewhere.

Speaker 1 You don't think he's watched six Pistons games? Just out of curiosity, you don't think he's checked in twice a month? They should be in ABC sitcom where he has to live with Killian Hayes.

Speaker 1 It's just the two of them in some beach house in Aruba,

Speaker 1 just ordering the staff around. It's like below deck to 2023 Pistons,

Speaker 1 Monty Williams and Killian Hayes.

Speaker 1 Evan Mobley, number 13. Big win for me.
You had your victory lap with Kate Cunningham. Huge victory lap for me with Evan Mobley.
I never gave up. I kind of gave up a little bit.

Speaker 1 And then Jaron Jackson, number 12. Would you, you would say no? Let's see.
This becomes a

Speaker 1 Cavs thing.

Speaker 1 I'd rather have the size than the guard.

Speaker 1 If I have somebody who can anchor a championship defense, I'm just picking that if all things are equal.

Speaker 1 Like we've seen, there's games when Mobley hasn't played where the Cavs look just completely different. you know, and

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I'm really impressed. But Jackson, who you mentioned earlier, that's been the stunner for me.

Speaker 1 You know, and this is a big win for Chris Vernon, who was always like, you guys are always, you know, shooting your wad about Mobley.

Speaker 1 What about Jaron Jackson, who has better numbers every year and has been in more playoff games? Jaron Jackson's been awesome. And there's a...

Speaker 1 There's a fuck you to him this year that I really like. Like I, that he had that Wemby game this year where he's like, fuck this guy.
I don't like this guy. I'm going to go at him.

Speaker 1 Uh, he's had a few of those this year. I know the shooting number wasn't great.
It's the only dude that I've seen be like, to your point, fuck him. Yeah, it's like, fuck him.

Speaker 1 I mean, I haven't seen that since Scoot in that international game.

Speaker 1 Our guy, we're not dead to Scoot.

Speaker 1 Signs of life.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 Come on.

Speaker 1 They'd come over to my house and be like, is he sleeping?

Speaker 1 Anyway, Moby 13, Jaron Jackson 12. I think that's the right order.
I'm glad, I'm glad.

Speaker 1 I was afraid, I was afraid you were going to do Jaron Jackson the 20s because you get on his case with the foul trouble and the rebounding. No, he's he's had an awesome year

Speaker 1 when when you think about what he can do offensively and the different ways that you can use him, um, I've never been as big a fan of him as I am right now.

Speaker 1 I voted him as an all-star starter, and I know that wasn't popular. Did you?

Speaker 1 No way, no, I ended up voting for Durant, but I stared at it. I did Wemby,

Speaker 1 Jokic. Jokic, right.
And I looked at Durant and Jaron Jackson for like a half hour. And I really wanted to vote for Jaron Jackson.

Speaker 1 And I just was like, it's the all-star game. It's KD.

Speaker 1 You know, he's the vet. And I just, it's not his fault that his team is run in the worst possible way.
But I really wanted to do it. I think, I actually wish I had done it.

Speaker 1 I think you made the right call.

Speaker 1 Well, very few media members agreed with me, but there was still like when the votes came out, I was like, am I going to be the only one that did this? And I think there were seven of us.

Speaker 1 I wish you had texted me because you could have talked me into it in like 20 seconds. I was that on the phone.
But, you know, we're all impressionable to a point, too.

Speaker 1 And it just, I caught more and more of him during this. And then you back up and you look at the numbers and then you think about what he does defensively and all these different things.

Speaker 1 And I was like, I think it's close enough. And,

Speaker 1 you know, standings isn't necessarily my tiebreaker. And I think that'll not be a tiebreaker when it comes to the MVP vote if we stay on the same path.

Speaker 1 And, you know,

Speaker 1 I think the Durant, like the default and LeBron and all that kind of stuff, like, hey, it's the all-star game. It's about the stars.
And that's who fans want to see.

Speaker 1 Like, I wouldn't get mad about anybody doing that if it's close, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, if it's close. Yeah.
The LeBron on off-court numbers when we had to do the vote, it was just there's no way you could vote for him. He was like a

Speaker 1 minus eight, something like that.

Speaker 1 I think it's a little well, I did it this morning. It's yeah, it's minus 4.6.
No, it's way

Speaker 1 it's gotten better because they're playing better. Um, when we when we had to do the vote, though, it wasn't great.
So, Jaron Jackson's played 45 of 47 games for the Grizzlies, which is awesome. Um,

Speaker 1 and he's having his best season all the way. He's 23 and six.

Speaker 1 He's easily their most indispensable player, and they're really good. So, kudos to him.
I have Davis 11.

Speaker 1 You saw the last couple games, like he really big boyed Boston. The game last night.
You know, he's, if he's playing the right shitty team, you really do feel like he could be a 40-20 guy.

Speaker 1 He's been really good.

Speaker 1 A week ago, I was wondering if they should trade him to Golden State. Now Golden State's gone one way, and the Lakers feel like they have some momentum.
The Finney Smith thing really helped them.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 it feels like they finally have enough guys to at least guard perimeter guys decently now. And they don't have to play Connect as much.

Speaker 1 So Reeves can be like the one one guy you can kind of hunt, but that's it. Vincent's playing better.
And then LeBron's had a little more energy on defense, just a little, tiny bit. But

Speaker 1 I'm a little more hopeful for them than I was a week ago. A week ago, I was like, this team's done.
They have no chance. Super impressed with them in person when they house the Celtics.

Speaker 1 I know people can point to the Celtics. What was it, five and seven?

Speaker 1 But I just hate like how everybody just throws. Anytime any team loses, you're just like, oh, back to back, up, you know, look at this stretch.

Speaker 1 And I understand it, but the Lakers controlled that game from the jump and it's

Speaker 1 and bullied him too.

Speaker 1 They knocked him around. I thought they were really physical in a way that was

Speaker 1 like inspiring. Not that I went outside and started, you know, fighting people, but I

Speaker 1 was,

Speaker 1 well, I wasn't that upset. I wanted to get home and get something to eat because it was late.

Speaker 1 I think D'Angelo Russell just being removed from all of the possibilities and all the possessions and all the stuff that he does that may not show up. Like, oh, look at the shooting numbers.

Speaker 1 Like, oh, look at this. And he has a better net rating than LeBron, all these different things.

Speaker 1 It's like, yeah, man, but it just, there's just times where you know, like, what the hell is he doing right now? And so their best spacing closing group was their worst defensive perimeter group.

Speaker 1 So they were kind of stuck. And I think removing that removes some of the stuff with them being stuck.

Speaker 1 And I, you know, it's weird with them because I kind of like them, but I also think like the standard is that when they're not a true title contender they get so dismissed and then we're just like oh they stink it's like they don't they don't stink like there's seven guys there that i kind of like but then i have to think about who am i picking them against in the playoffs in the first round and that becomes more challenging they're at least just

Speaker 1 they're at least a bitch in the round one you like they from that's where they've at least taken this season the celtic game whatever there were real the celtics had weird coaching in that game there was a weird energy they'd played the ot game the night before.

Speaker 1 The Warriors game was the one that really impressed me because I thought the Warriors needed the game. They wanted the game.
It was national TV.

Speaker 1 I wasn't sold on the Lakers at all, but they did the same thing they did to Boston on the Thursday. It was like, oh, shit,

Speaker 1 this team's big. Davis is really engaged.
LeBron seems like he

Speaker 1 kind of is starting to like the roster a little bit. And I really think Reeves, who killed the Celtics,

Speaker 1 has turned into a very fun offensive player. And Reddick's not afraid to run shit through him and marginalize LeBron for a couple, you know, half a quarter in crunch time.

Speaker 1 Like if Reeves has the right matchup, they'll go to him. They'll actually use him, which they weren't doing last year.

Speaker 1 The other hope is that, you know, LeBron defensively is going to be a different version of himself in the playoffs. Yeah, I mean, it's terrible right now, and it has been.

Speaker 1 I mean, there's just so many moments you can look at and be like, well, if he has to move, like it'll be times where he'll he'll help to where the help help doesn't need to be there but at least it looks like he's defending somebody and it's like okay but now you just you just messed up the entire rotation of the stuff and i get it like he's 40 years old and that's why there was that weird stretch like 10 games in or something where they were winning games and he was playing out of his mind in his intensity i was like what what is this like are you going to try to keep up this kind of pace like this doesn't make any sense so that actually is a positive and that i wonder

Speaker 1 You know, you gear it up, you have a little bit more of a break during the playoffs if you can see a more engaged version of him, where defensively he's just trying to survive the season, play as many games as he can, you know, help them be kind of a mid-seed team in the West.

Speaker 1 I still think some of their best offensive possessions is when he's initiating it because it would make sense because he's so smart and he's still so good.

Speaker 1 Well, especially transitions, the other thing, his transition stuff is still great. You know, like his ability to read at half court, oh, there's only two guys there.

Speaker 1 I'm just going to go through them and I'm bigger than them and I'm going to get a layup.

Speaker 1 Well, in the past, you get still has all his stuff. Think about it, though.

Speaker 1 How much easier it is to move when you know where you're moving as opposed to having to move in relationship to the other person moving where you have no idea where they're going.

Speaker 1 So when he knows everything that he's doing, it's still incredibly impressive. And so that window of when he played that hard, even though I was like, man,

Speaker 1 this dude is like, it was a bunch of games in a row. I was like, he's really going for it.
I wonder if that's actually something to look at.

Speaker 1 We're like, okay, well, at least that had happened happened at some point this season, even from that time on.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess it's been a little bit better lately, but there was a stretch. We'll see.
The Lakers have been up and down, but they're in a

Speaker 1 nice little spot right now. Davis, so this Untouchables group, Group B, Davis, 11, Jalen Brunson, 10, Donovan Mitchell, 9.

Speaker 1 And Mitchell's had, I just love the year he's had. And they're not playing huge minutes.

Speaker 1 He's really deferred and just seems like he's he's been an awesome teammate this year. And I think he's the biggest reason they're winning.
Last group.

Speaker 1 So this is a big argument coming out of the gate. This last group, completely and utterly untouchable.
And I had Paolo number eight.

Speaker 1 And I struggled with that more than I think any other name in the list, whether he should be in this final group or be in the group that we just went through.

Speaker 1 And I couldn't shake those first couple games where he got hurt this season, how young he is, and how

Speaker 1 I just wouldn't trade him. Like,

Speaker 1 I just wouldn't be able to do it. Like, to me, he's a completely, utterly untouchable, but is he too high?

Speaker 1 I don't think so. Okay, good.
And

Speaker 1 it's that stretch last year.

Speaker 1 I think he's another guy that you have to factor in who was available around him. Orlando, statistically, so bad offensively, and that also speaks to losing Franz for that long on top of losing Paolo.

Speaker 1 So I think there's a lot of people that could try to throw. And he's had some dud of games, you know, some of the shooting numbers since he's come back.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't say he's 100%. I'm going to

Speaker 1 worry about that in March. What I love about him is that I know he can fill it up, but he also wants everybody to be involved.
And it's why I loved him at Duke. It's why I've always argued for him.

Speaker 1 Is that, you know, the difference between

Speaker 1 like Jalen Green can't see the way Paolo sees the game.

Speaker 1 And that's why I'm a Paolo fan.

Speaker 1 Would you have him above or below Anthony Edwards, who I have at number seven? I'd have him behind him. Me too.
Well, Anthony Edwards is our number seven.

Speaker 1 Taking some shit this year. A little bit of a backlash season.
You knew it was coming.

Speaker 1 You knew the backlash season was happening. I wish I was going to be able to get started.

Speaker 1 I was going to bet on it, FanDuel.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but it was going to happen in the Olympics, like leading up to it after his run through the playoffs. He was like, I'm the number one option.
It's like, or.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Or you're going to be watching.

Speaker 1 It's part of the process. How do you handle handle adversity? How do you handle annoying media questions about adversity? How do you handle tough losses? We're fine.
Tatum, number six.

Speaker 1 Giannis, number five.

Speaker 1 Giannis is better. Stop.
Sorry. You're going to think that you're going to, you're going to be so happy right now.
Giannis is better than Tatum. Tatum is the better value.

Speaker 1 Okay, make the case. Tatum plays all the time.

Speaker 1 They're about the same age, right?

Speaker 1 No. Tatum's,

Speaker 1 what did he turn? 20.

Speaker 1 Tatum's 26.

Speaker 1 So Giannis is two years older than him?

Speaker 1 No. Giannis turned 30 in December.
Tatum. Oh, shit.
Giannis is 30. Yeah, Tatum turns 27 in March.

Speaker 1 So when you sent that,

Speaker 1 I was thinking you were doing that on purpose because people were going to give you shit for the Tatum. No, I didn't think that at all.
I thought Giannis was 28.

Speaker 1 Not even the great ones make mistakes.

Speaker 1 There's not been a day where I thought Tatum was better than Giannis, although you're getting four extra years. And I'll tell you, like Tatum this year, man,

Speaker 1 I think he's incredible.

Speaker 1 Couldn't agree.

Speaker 1 The numbers may not scream it at you if you're not paying attention,

Speaker 1 but to see what he is doing to some of these defenses and what they're trying to do to him.

Speaker 1 And like Houston last night, the entire thing was blitz him, double him, and he was still turning the corner on some of these traps. And it wasn't like he was scoring every single time, but

Speaker 1 there's not something like that that just goes, oh, wow, look at this jump. Look at the shooting number.

Speaker 1 Look at the scoring because the shooting for the team is down, which is another part of the Celtics thing. This is the best Tatum's ever played.
I've never,

Speaker 1 you know, much like I was talking about with Jaron Jackson, like this is the best I've ever felt about Tatum. And the fact the age thing here is I think he actually be super ranked head of youngs.

Speaker 1 Two things. Responsibility,

Speaker 1 it's among the toughest in the league what he does every night. Durability,

Speaker 1 it's surprising when he doesn't play. And when you saw, and I saw those back-to-back LA games in person,

Speaker 1 both teams' strategy was just beat the shit out of Tatum, make him work, don't let him get to his, if he's going to get to his spot, make him have to shove his way there, Always have a guy behind him.

Speaker 1 Always chip him. Like he's almost treated like the Pats treated Marshall Falk in that Super Bowl.

Speaker 1 Every smart team's game plan is push him, nudge him, shove him, just make it hard for him for four quarters. Or like Ben Coates in the end zone.

Speaker 1 Or my guy, Ben Coates, getting tackled by four Dolphins at the same time.

Speaker 1 But he just keeps coming back.

Speaker 1 And if there's a one disappointing thing with me, with him, it's just like when you play like the Clippers backups, that's the kind of game this year where SGA is like, I'm an F-55.

Speaker 1 Don't worry, everybody can take the night off. And Tatum's missing that one

Speaker 1 kind of up, look out, I'm scorched earth tonight.

Speaker 1 But that's it. If you're going to nitpick, that's really the only nitpick where it's like, ah, tonight's the night where Tatum just scores 47 and we kill whoever we're playing.

Speaker 1 He's just not that kind of player, but I think it's okay. He gets everybody involved.

Speaker 1 And this is the best he's ever played. We agree.
I can't put him ahead of Luka Dodge at four.

Speaker 1 No, that's fine. Although there's an availability thing going on there where it's not.

Speaker 1 That's why he dropped. Like, Luca's never been number one in the rankings, and it probably might not ever happen because of the durability thing with him.

Speaker 1 Whereas, like, Shay is number three.

Speaker 1 I have Jokic two.

Speaker 1 And then for the first time, a new number one.

Speaker 1 We've only had, I think, 10, 11, 12 number ones ever. Victor Jayama.
Oh, yeah, not Pritchard.

Speaker 1 Wemby, number one. I think he has to be.

Speaker 1 Jokic is having one of the great offensive seasons in the history of the league and is the best teammate since Bird and Magic and Curry. And

Speaker 1 if you want to win a title, he'd be the first pick. But I don't know from a trade asset standpoint.

Speaker 1 The Spurs aren't even like.

Speaker 1 They're not, you're saying the word, hey, would you ever trade Vic? And they're hanging up. You're just getting the V and the I out.
It's a hang up. So he's number one.

Speaker 1 They're like, no, we were calling about a three-way with Cretschie.

Speaker 1 Oh, they caught you back. So are you good with that? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 I don't know where this Jokic thing is going to end up all time

Speaker 1 because like this

Speaker 1 stretch is

Speaker 1 like so ridiculous. And that's why when we were in Denver, I meant this, like, I hope he gets another one so that the simpletons are allowed to accept him into a higher tier.

Speaker 1 And I know that sounds like shitty for me to say it, but I just get so tired of like, when I look at how people rank stuff, like, do you really want to be this simple? You just want to count stuff?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, that's all it ever is to you is that this guy was good because of this and this guy was bad because of that? Then what's the point of watching any of this stuff?

Speaker 1 It happened a lot with college football, I thought, this year, too.

Speaker 1 And I really hope like Jokic gets the one that allows him to be talked about in the way that he deserves to be talked about because of what this stretch is.

Speaker 1 Would you put the finals MVP above or below resurrecting Westbrook's career as the greatest feat of his career? If you had to rank them one, two.

Speaker 1 Westbrook, Westbrook, I was thinking about this the other day, and I don't know if this is going to work, but like Westbrook's your buddy from home that just, you know, has it dialed in and everybody knows the routine.

Speaker 1 You know, the girls probably maybe liked him when he was in high school or whatever. But then if you bring him to like LA and you've been living in L.A.

Speaker 1 for a few years and you just be like, hey, look, dude, just so you you know, like it's a little harder out here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and they're going to be competing with like different dudes, and like it's up to you to accept the fact that like you're not going to get into some places and people are going to big time you.

Speaker 1 And that if you recognize a guy from a TV show and you tell him that you're a big fan, he's not going to talk to you and he's going to walk away.

Speaker 1 And like, they're just going to smell the non-LA on you and you'll have to adjust. And some people leave and never come back because they hated their experience.

Speaker 1 And I think Westbrook showed up to Denver being like, I do get it. Like, I do, my hometown stuff might not work.

Speaker 1 I find Westbrook in this run funny because he can be almost too deferential where he'll like want to get it back to Jokic in a spot where it's not even like a great catch for Jokic because Westbrook doesn't want to do all the things that he's been criticized for doing in the past.

Speaker 1 Now, I still think there's a version of this with the spacing with Gordon and Westbrook to close like a playoff game. Like, yeah, I'm allowing, like, is that actually going to happen?

Speaker 1 But they needed him. They needed.
He was cheap. He was, and he's giving giving them like value minutes.
He gives them durability, minutes, and stats. They needed all three.

Speaker 1 He's running. I think Danny Chow wrote a great piece for The Ringer about this last week.
It's the most unlikely connection of any two players we've had in a while. And

Speaker 1 for me, like, you know, as an obvious giant Jokic fan, this is like the stuff that made Bird and Magic so special. They could resuscitate guys.
Like Magic did this with Bob McAdoo.

Speaker 1 You know, Bird did this with Walton in 86, and even like bit players like See Shting and whoever, Gerald Patterson.

Speaker 1 But the fact that Jokic took Westbrook, who not only was not an asset, but this might have been the only team in the league that would have signed him.

Speaker 1 And somebody were like, oh my God, how's this going to work? Holy shit. And then turns him.
And they have this like real ESP thing now. And Jokic loves him.

Speaker 1 I think that's, I think it's such like a feather in his cap, just historically, that he can basically play with any player in the league and make them better, which is like the highest level of basketball you can reach.

Speaker 1 Westbrook's really appreciated, though.

Speaker 1 He's appreciated more by players than he is by those of us that don't play because I think they look at what he did at his peak and there is a respect for him that we probably don't understand as much.

Speaker 1 But you also realize with Westbrook, like, which version are we getting? Because the LA thing with the Lakers was a disaster.

Speaker 1 And I I think he resented so much of the dynamic there, which I can even see his

Speaker 1 point of view on that.

Speaker 1 He was disrespected, marginalized, and not used correctly, and then blamed for everything and thrown into every single trade rumor possible. So, yeah, he wasn't a huge fan.

Speaker 1 True, but I mean, it's not like he, it, like his style of play was going to lead to, oh, this doesn't work.

Speaker 1 Like, once again, the players expect to be GMs, or sometimes I'm like, do you not watch league pass?

Speaker 1 Like, how do you not understand like how this is going to clog up some of the things that you'll want to do?

Speaker 1 But it doesn't explain the Clippers thing last year, how bad he was. No, the playoff series, when it seemed like his career was over.
Right.

Speaker 1 The Dallas playoff series, when he decided to like prioritize just

Speaker 1 being

Speaker 1 like pissed off at everybody and taking himself out and like huge spots where you're like, what are you doing right now? He's a pissed maniac. Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 It's like, you can do like, you're getting as any buckets or anything? No, so now we can't even trust you to be out there.

Speaker 1 So, you know, you would think that it'd be easy for somebody to go, hey, look, all you have to do with Jokic is just cut, man.

Speaker 1 Be ready and cut. And when you think he doesn't see you, he actually still sees you.
So just cut.

Speaker 1 And then it turned out Westbrook was one of the better cutters in the league. Like, who knew? Been watching him since 2008.

Speaker 1 And all of a sudden, he's like this supernatural first step cut, almost like a wide receiver coming off the line of scrimmage. And you find

Speaker 1 every time.

Speaker 1 We'll worry, though, because there's times where you can see, like in a game, or if he has like an open look from three in the corner, and I know the corner numbers are really good, right?

Speaker 1 But if he clanks it in a big spot, like the next time he may get that catch in the same look, you can see him just not want to, I've seen that happen.

Speaker 1 So I don't know if there's numbers that would tell me that it's, it's true, not true, but I've seen him where it's just clear as day. Okay, he doesn't want to pull the trigger on this.

Speaker 1 And I don't know if it's like, hey, I just bricked the last one and this is a big spot. I don't know if it's him being deferential of like, hey, let me get it back to Jokic.

Speaker 1 I wonder with the Jokic Murray two-man game in a playoff series when you have Gordon where you have that spacing decision that Minnesota always messes with, where it's like, hey, put Ruby on Gordon because that way Rudy can freelance off of him.

Speaker 1 That gives Nas the Jokic matchup that Kat did so well with last year. Can you put, can you run the two-man game if Gordon and Westbrook are both on the other side?

Speaker 1 And are you going to start dealing with some real spacing issues? And will teams get used to it after two weeks of games games where they're like, oh, all right, game four.

Speaker 1 Now I understand what they're doing. That's the only thing that when I watch it, I go, you know, I wonder what that'll look like then.

Speaker 1 But up until this point, it's been to your point for a team that we were like, where's the depth? Just his energy.

Speaker 1 And even like a diminished version of Westbrook athletically, when he starts going and he realizes going to get the ball back because Jokic is just that good. Yeah.
It motivates you to be like.

Speaker 1 involved in all of this stuff. Like, hey, if I keep cutting, I get just all these easy baskets because I'm still so much quicker, even though it's later in his career.

Speaker 1 I can't believe we just spent three minutes talking about Russell Westbrook, but it was totally worth it because it speaks to Jokic, like the fact that

Speaker 1 look what we did today. I said Trey Young was too low,

Speaker 1 like Jacques Harden's side and something. I was incredibly, incredibly concerned about that Denver team.
And now I think they're fine and they're, they'll be there in the end.

Speaker 1 We'll see if they can get a buyout guy or just one other piece. Maybe they can dump Zeke Nadji and have some trade flexibility.

Speaker 1 Anyway, Group A, Paolo, number eight, Anthony Edwards, Giannis, six, Tatum, five, Doncic, SGA, Jokic,

Speaker 1 and our new number one, Victor Wembanyama, who

Speaker 1 probably at some point this season is going to have like a 40, 20, 12 block game with like seven assists.

Speaker 1 He's going to, he'll have some box score that we've never seen before, but we've seen 30 Jokic box scores. I think I've never seen before this year.
All right, that was fun.

Speaker 1 This is going to go up on theringer.com later in the week, the official list. My conciliary Rosillo, thank you so much for doing this.
You have two more podcasts this week for you, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 Wednesday and then a loaded football show on Friday. Loaded?

Speaker 1 Loaded. Loaded.
Okay. Great to see you, Rosillo.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Rosillo.
Thanks to Kyle and Gahal and and Saruti, as always.

Speaker 1 I will be back with another podcast on Thursday. Don't forget, you can watch this on the Bill Sims YouTube channel.
You can watch the new rewatchables we did before sunrise.

Speaker 1 That is on the Ring of Movies YouTube channel. And I'll see you on Thursday.

Speaker 1 wayside,

Speaker 1 on the bruised

Speaker 1 liver,

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