An NBA Fake-Trade Fiesta With Kevin O’Connor

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We did not do a podcast Tuesday night. Making up for it today with a special basketball podcast.

Our old friend Kevin O'Connor is coming in.

We're going to talk about a bunch of teams

that are in trouble.

We're going to talk about fake trades.

What's realistic?

What's not?

Where are people like Jimmy Butler going?

Could there be a surprise?

The trade deadline is February 6th.

We're breaking all of it down.

First, our friends from Pearl Jam. Alright, we're taping this.
It's 4 o'clock Pacific time. There's reasons for that, which I'll get to.
But I'm very excited to have Kevin O'Connor here. You might remember him from many, many, many years at The Ringer.
He is now at Yahoo. We have not done a podcast during this basketball season.
What better time, KOC, than fake trade season for us to reunite? Best time of the year, Bill. And I have to say, you know, I called you on the phone when I left for Yahoo, but I have to thank you for everything.
You know, those eight years of the ringer publicly. You have to.
I have to. Yeah, we're always good.
Yes, of course. So, unfortunately, we had to tape this a little late on Wednesday because I was flying back from Boston this morning.
And then there was a Wi-Fi issue on the plane. And I'm like, is this going to work out? Am I going to be able to do a podcast today? The Wi-Fi miraculously came back.
And then I was on my iPad for hours making fake trades. And I think a couple of times the lady next to me was like, what's this guy doing? What is this trade machine that he has? But before we do that, a bunch of teams I want to hit, just big picture, that kind of relate to this in some ways.
Biggest one, Dallas. I think Dallas is in real trouble now.
This lively injury, it's a foot injury, and they're saying out two to three months. And as I've said a million times, I never trust feet injuries.
I always feel like they're not being honest about how long the timetable is because I'm

not sure they know.

And I always go worst case scenario.

Three months takes us into the playoffs.

It takes us into round one.

And on top of it, Lucas hurt.

And I just, I thought Dallas was going to be there in the end.

This is the first time I got worried.

Yeah.

I think with this lively injury, there's been some trickling out for a few days that like,

oh, maybe they're going to go after a center. But I'm like, huh, maybe they want to just have some versatility in the front court.
But now that we know about the injury, it completely explains why we're going for a center here. And so my question is, what type of center are they going to go for? Are they going to go for another lob, vertical guy like Lively, like Gafford? But if you add a third guy like that and then Lively comes you can't then what then what's your sense yeah exactly so i wonder if maybe for them they still go after you know a pick and pop big or a switchable big somebody like that to give them some front court versatility but gafford looked damn good and the first half of their game on sunday so like the gaff we know he can step his play up.
So I wouldn't say

I don't think I'd go as far as you to say

that they're screwed, but it is

going to be a lot dependent on what they do

to fill that center gap because it can't just be

Gafford. That's all they have now.
Well, they're

screwed in this respect. Right now, they're

seventh in the West. They're 23 and

20. Doesn't look like Lucas coming back until

the All-Star break. There's

teams that are just settled in way ahead of

them now. The top four, Oklahoma,

Houston, Memphis, Denver.

I don't know when Lively's coming back. They also made a lot of trades already.
They don't have like a shitload of assets. You know, they've already made a lot of their moves and they would have to dip into the clay, PJ Washington, like that kind of group to improve with their new proof.

So I'm sure their game plan is just going to be, we're probably going to be in that

seven to 10 range.

Let's hope Lively comes back.

Let's hope Luca gets going.

We'll be there in the end, but pretty tough, man.

If you're in those playing games and then you're on the road every round, we haven't really seen, we haven't seen a lot of success with that recipe, KOC. I mean, even with a healthy, lively, I'm curious, like, do you still view them as, like, upper tier in the Western Conference, right on the same level as Denver, who's really come along lately? He's come along.
Like, Russell Westbrook, you've got to give the dude credit. He is playing at the best level that he

has in years. Jamal Murray getting

along better now. Danny Chow

wrote about it for us. It's the most improbable

relationship we've had in the NBA this decade.

Jokic and Westbrook

somehow joining forces in

a positive way. I don't understand it.

It's kind of crazy. With Russ,

it didn't work with LeBron. It

works sometimes with the Clippers, but not all the time. It didn't in one of their playoffs.
And not at the end. Yeah.
And then with Jokic, it's like you have Jokic after the game talking about like we can read each other's minds. Like there is some chemistry that they have.
It feels like every other game, once it's Jokic and Westbrook, then it's Jokic and Murray, then it's Jokic and MPJ. It's always a different connection.
Like their their offense sometimes i felt like it got a bit dry like sometimes it was always yokich murray end of game situations but there's variety now that makes me think wait a minute is denver actually just the only true contender besides okc in the western conference so they actually the team that could take them down because i'm not i'm not totally sold on Dallas anyway. I think they have too many holes.
I'm still worried

about Lucas' health. I mean, when you're coming back

post-All-Star break, with that

type of injury, that's the type

of thing that can get hurt again. And Kyrie, in

and out still as well. A lot of questions

there with them, even prior to Lively.

Yeah, but here's the flip

side of this is why it was stupid to give up

on Denver a month ago. If you have

one of the best six players in the league, you just have to be taken seriously in the playoffs. So the question for me is, can he get back to the right shape? When can Lively come back? Can they sneak out? If they're playing Houston in round one at 2-7, they could beat Houston.
I don't know if Houston has another gear. So I'm sure they're not totally panicking yet, but it's not great.
And you think like Lucas 26 now, they made the finals last year. They really went all in on this season and Oklahoma City kind of took their spot.
But yeah, I'm not a full level panic. I don't like the fact that they're not going to have home court every round.
And I also don't know what the trade move is. So so next one is philly who is borderline shut it down territory but you also look at the east and it's like yeah they could make the playing game and what if they have those guys in mid-april and they're all healthy and i don't really know what the answer is but the the big thing is their first pick is top six protected which everybody's been talking about all week and i i thought about how okc gets that pick? If it's like seventh in a really good draft that I'm sure you've become fascinated by.
This is the Sam Presti revenge on Daryl Morey. The James Harden trade, 2012, right? And it became this thing that became this curse over OKC.
And they never got to the finals. And Daryl kind of made his career in a lot of ways.
The flip side of this, OKC gets his pick because Philly has to dump Al Horford, right? And now this pick is paralyzing Philly with their decisions because you maybe want to just throw away the season and yet you can if Embiid is going to be healthy in two weeks. So what do you do if you're Philly? I don't think you can throw away the season.
You can't. Like you said, with Embiid, if he's healthy, they've been good after he got back in December.
Granted, he's missed a lot of time since then. But if Embiid's healthy, you know you're competitive.
The problem is the fact that you get Paul George and you're saying, well, he's just going to be better than Tobias Harris. He's going to be way better than Harris that has been for us.
And then he looks like Tobias Harris for you. And so if Paul George is actually...
Is that an insult to Tobias Harris? I'm not sure. Yeah, it is.
Because Tobias Harris was very average, below average with the Sixers. And he's been pretty good with the Pistons.
No, but I'm saying is, would Tobias Harris listen to this and be like, yo, I've been better than Paul George.

At least I played him.

That would be fair if he did say that

he's at least been on the court.

Well, with Paul George,

he just looks like a complete shell of his former self.

So if the Paul George decline is beginning,

and this isn't just an off year at 35, 36 years old,

whatever he is,

you have to take advantage of these years,

especially if like Embiid is healthy come April and you sneak in as the 7 or the 8 seed. You can't waste a year.
There's no way they're going to be the 7 or the 8 seed. They're going to be 9 or 10, but they could still sneak in because they'd have to win two playing games.
That's what I mean. If they win the two playing games and they sneak in in that case, and there's the 7 or 8, like, you gotta, you have to go for that possibility.
You can't completely tank out here. But if Embiid doesn't come back, moving up in the lottery is your silver lining here for Philadelphia.
But I don't think you can tank for that. It's not worth doing that.
You at least have to go for it. Otherwise, it's another year wasted.
And for Daryl Morey in the front office as well, and Nick Nurse as head coach, that could mean your job too. If they do miss the playoffs, and if next year they go into things and it's not better, you might not get another job anytime soon.
So I don't think they have much of a choice but to go for it now. We have hit fall guy range.
And it's going to be either Nurse or Daryl. And I don't know which one it's going to be, but we're very close at this point.
Those guys don't play hard for Nurse at all. No, they don't seem like they...
We've seen this happen over the course of the NBA history. Don Nelson was a great coach.
He took over the Ewing Knicks at one point in the mid-90s, and I think he lasted like 45 games. It just didn't work.
I don't know if it's that bad for them, but when you don't have two of your best three guys basically never playing, you know, they had this huge stretch last week. It was like four and five against all good teams.
And Embiid missed all the games. And then he met, and then they were like, he's probably out at least another week.
If you look at their schedule, any game where he would come back, it's a good team. There's always a Boston or a Cleveland.
There's somebody on there.

And I don't think he's going to come back until he's healthy.

I don't think he wants to come back at his ass kick.

So I don't know if you're Nick Nurse, what do you do on that?

But the Paul George piece is the shocking thing.

I guess we should have known.

He's been in the league a while that it was possible.

But I don't know.

He was always hit or miss, but he hit.

And he's not hitting anymore. It's more misses or I forgot you were out there than hits.
Yeah, I mean, at the least, at a minimum, he was a far better spot-up shooter than Tobias Harris. He was always above 40% from three.
Tobias Harris was very streaky and consistent in lower volume. This year, Paul George, only 35% from three, has not been a knockdown guy on top of you know just stinking it up end of game situations losing control of the ball in the final minutes of games real careless turnovers and the defense is not at a lockdown level for that matter either so like the things that you thought at a minimum we're getting elite defender and knockdown shooter who can sometimes go off you're not even getting the role player stuff from him right now and so that's where where your philadelphia if he's not producing i don't know if there's an answer for you to solve that at all with this roster you're you were banking on paul george you waited for him in free agency that's what the whole plan was was to go out and get paul george for seven months this was the plan so if's not working out, nobody's going to take him for that matter.
Who do you think is the most relieved? Orlando? The Clippers? I wonder who else would have been in the mix on that. Well, Golden State was in the mix for Paul George, too.
Golden State? Oh, yeah. They were trying.
Can you be relieved if you're them, though? You're super average this year. Yeah.
You're a 500 team. Yeah.
Philly needs to use those picks, though. They have four tradable picks.
They need to use those, I'd say. Would you use McCain, who's out for the year? I don't know.
He looks pretty damn good, Phil. Long-term, McCain, Maxie is your backcourt.
Is that a backcourt that makes sense to you from a basketball standpoint? It's too small. Yeah.
It's too small. But I think McCain's value would only go up.
To me, I mean, I think like everybody talks about Jimmy Butler as a guy to Phoenix and all these other teams. Nobody ever mentions Philly.
What if Philly offered three firsts with Paul George to reunite Jimmy Butler with Joel Embiid? Maybe you don't do that if you're Philly. Maybe you keep your tradable picks and go elsewhere, but I'm just throwing the idea out there.
And maybe Miami rolls the dice with Paul George as a longer-term salary. I have Paul George coming up later when we get to the fake trade section of this podcast because it's a fascinating topic.
So we agree. Philly's not shutting it down.
They still have a chance to be a 9 or a 10 seed. If they can get all those guys healthy for two months, that's still the plan.
And if I'm Daryl Morey, that's a better chance than keeping my fingers crossed in the lottery. Okay.
Next one. New Orleans is in what the fuck land where they suck.
But now that all their guys are back, they're actually pretty solid and really talented,

and Trey Murphy's been playing great.

And they might be too talented to be a full tank team,

a la Brooklyn and teams like that.

They have some good trade assets.

Ingram is an expiring, he's hurt right now.

Zion, year to year he can get out.

CJ McCollum, overpriced but reasonable

for somebody who needs a scoring something. And then I guess Murray.
That roster doesn't really make sense. I don't even know what the move is.
What do they do? What do you do if you're running New Orleans? I think you just keep it going. Honestly, I wouldn't necessarily tank it out unless you're getting a really, really good deal deal from a column yeah I think trading CJ McCollum would definitely be top of my list aside from the obvious in but now he's gonna be upset at me again because he thinks I always throw him in trade rumors I mean nobody's wanted Ingram for a year and a half especially now that he's hurt yeah yes is that gonna change in the weeks here? With McCollum, at least he has had some banger performances as of late.

He's looked healthy.

He looks very good for them right now.

So maybe you're trading McCollum.

The issue is the fact that he's a tough guy to trade at $33 million this year.

He's still a smaller guard.

So for New Orleans, part of me, Bill, looks at this as a year in which your horrible start with Zion missing time keeps you in the lottery. It's going to keep you having good draft odds.
And then the Lakers pick. Yes.
So if you win towards the end of the season, maybe you actually have some clarity on what you want to do heading into the summer. So I'm not totally against keeping things together because you're going to have a lottery pick anyway.
You're not going get into the play you're too far back right now so I'm okay with keeping things together right now and if Zion is back to prime Zion for the whole rest of the season I think that maybe gives you an idea of what you want to do in the summer if you're the Pelicans versus dumping things right now just for slightly higher odds you just stumbled into the. These next two months are about building back Zion up as a genuine asset and then trying to get out of that, get out of that situation as fast as you can.
So you're still ejecting from the Zion situation. I am.
No matter what. If he's healthy for two months, that trade when the value is high.
There are 11 wins or 11 losses behind Phoenix for the 10 seed. That's crazy.
So there's no scenario where they catch fire. Unfortunately, uh, where I, one of the things about trading McCollum is then you could play Jordan Hawkins more.
It's weird. They're, they're deep, but they also have a terrible record.
They make no sense as a, as a team of assets. Anyway, uh, next one.
I didn't know it was going to be today. What's today's day? January 22nd.
I thought it was going to be after the Celtics game the next day when we celebrated the annual Lakers holiday, passive aggressive trade day, when some report comes out that LeBron and AD or just LeBron aren't happy with the roster. It happened today.
It was January 22nd. I wish I had had FanDuel put odds with all the different days in January when it was going to happen.
But it happened today. LeBron and AD apparently really want them to improve the roster.
They're not that happy with it. I don't know what the move is, KOC.
When you're paying those two guys a hundred plus million dollars a year and you have Reeves,

your roster's pretty good.

And maybe look in the mirror a little bit.

And I went through everybody.

I don't, if it's Rui and Vanderbilt

and Vincent and two firsts,

I don't even know what you're getting.

Who's available?

If it's a top 50 player,

nobody wants to trade a top 50 player.

So you're looking at people like Zach Levine.

And if they got Zach Levine, I just don't think they're a contender in the West. They would have the same problems they have anywhere where they can't guard anybody.
I would never, Reeves is a hang up for me. If somebody called about Reeves at 12 billion a year, it's like, yeah, I'm sure you do want Austin Reeves.
Fuck off, hang up. I don't know what the move is for them.
I don't know how they're a title contender. And I have some ideas zagging the other way.
But what do you think? If you're trying to add, which I don't think they're going to go the other way, Walker Kessler is a center. Try to go get him from Utah.
Then you can play two big lineups. Are you winning four rounds if you make a Walker Kessler trade? No.
Just one of the names. You can trade two picks.
You can trade multiple swaps. You do have some tradable salaries.
So maybe that's one of the guys you go for. And I don't know if you and I feel the same way about this guy, Bill, but I think everything Zach Levine has done this year, forget about last year.
No, we're aligned on that. Okay.
So to me, if you're able to put a package together for Zach Levine and it's a tough deal, it probably have to be a three-way. But if you go get Zach Levine and add him to the bunch with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, if you're able to go get a five, like Walker Kessler, you have Dorian Finney-Smith already, you have Austin Reeves.
Like suddenly you have like a really good top six, top seven with a lot of dynamic scoring ability, versatility on defense, different lineup configurations that you can play. So I think the Lakers should be adding.
They should try to trade their 29 and 31. They should try to trade their swaps.
They should try to go for something here. If I was a Laker fan, I would be losing my mind at this.
really? We're going to mortgage basically the next six years so we can fulfill this charade that we're a title contender? And no chance against Oklahoma City. What if you slightly protect those picks? I wouldn't do it.
I would zag the other way. And if Reeves is in a trade, they're just flat out stupid.
What's the other way? Does that mean trading AD? Trading LeBron? I have an AD idea. I think

they should think about zagging the other way

and trading AD.

It's a really interesting thing to bring up

to Laker fans because I think

they're grateful they won the title in 2020,

but I also feel like they don't want to lose

the entire decade trying to

pretend that they can win a title with these

two guys as their best players because they can't.

You watch them.

First of all, did you see that stat about how their their uh their record versus what the record actually is like how far the expected win rate or whatever that stat is which backs up what i've watched like they've lucked out with some schedule stuff i don't think they're that good and i think they they're not that good, whatever their record is. They're going to play the Celtics tomorrow night, and LeBron will have his A game, and they're just not good enough defensively if the Celtics play well.
Granted, the Celtics can go 7 for 50 from 3 and get smoked in a second game back-to-back, but defensively, they're just not good enough, and I don't know if Walker Kessler is changing that. Yeah, if you look at the teams in the NBA right now with 23-plus wins, the only two teams with a negative point differential are Magic minus .5 and the Lakers minus 2.
And the Magic lost their two best players for most of the season. Yes.
And the Lakers, they're the only team in the West top six right now with a negative plus minus on the entire season. I just don't see it.
I would not give away the rest of the future just because LeBron wants a better team. Part of it is you insisted on the Anthony Davis trade.
You guys won a title for it. You gave away all of these assets.
You struck oil with Reeves. That was one of the luckiest things that could have happened to any team to get a guy.
Was he undrafted or a second round? He was undrafted, right? Pretty sure he went undrafted, yeah. Yeah.
And then they get him on this crazy contract because he didn't go out and shop himself. So he's like $12 million a year.
That's one of the best contracts in the league. So if you just look at those three things and the role players they have, you would think they would be better than they are, but can't guard anybody.
Last team is Miami. So the Butler thing is, this is about as bad of a player team situation as we've had in a while.
It's also the NBA I grew up with where stars would just get mad at teams, stars would miss planes. Even going into the 2000s, this would happen with people like Vince Carter.
I don't know what his trade value is anymore and I don't think you probably do either. I don't know what he's worth.
I can't decide because he can opt in next year. He's such a headache.
He's 35. You know they have to trade him.
Why am I offering anything for him? And he also hasn't done anything since game two of the East Finals against the Celtics two years ago in 2023. He was inefficient the rest of that series, inefficient against Denver.
He's mistimed the last two years for suspensions, for being a malcontent, for injuries, for age. I don't know what he's actually worth at this point for all those reasons.
So I don't even know if I'd want to trade for him if I'm the Suns. I get the appeal.
He's better than Bradley Beal. Obviously, they're going to continue trying to build this thing up.
If that's the trade, you're doing that. Yes.
If it's Bradley Beal, you're doing that. Bradley Beal for Butler straight up, which would be just an insane trade for Miami to make.
I don't know why they would take on an extra year of Bradley Beal. That's why you have like all these rumors trickling out about how it could be a four or five team trade because somebody else would be taking Beal in this situation.
And I actually figured out what that trade would be. This wasn't one of my fake trades.
I got one too for this one. I want to know if it came up with the same thing.
But the part that has to be true is A, Beal would want to waive his no trade clause to go to Milwaukee, which I find hard to believe. B, Milwaukee would want Bradley Beal for this year and the next two.
So you just have to assume that that might be true. I don't think it is.
Doesn't have to be the B Bucs for Beal. Well, the trade I came up with was Butler to the Suns, Beal to the Bucs, Miami gets Chris Middleton, Steven Adams from Houston, and Cam Whitmore from Houston, and Houston gets Brooke Lopez.
And that actually works. Houston would be taking on, yeah, $7 million, $8 million to turn Adams and Whitmoremore into Lopez basically.
And then all the contracts work. Bucks just get Beal? Bucks just get Beal.
That's it. See, I'm saying no if I'm the Bucks.
I think I am too. But I think when people talk about four teamers, five teamers, it's a trade like that and I think a team like Houston has to be involved getting turning Adams and one of their younger, cheaper assets into a better center.
Here's what I got for the Jimmy Butler five-way deal. I got Suns get Butler.
Oh, let's hear it. Five-way.
Five-way. Suns get Butler.
Heat get Chris Middleton and Pat Connaughton. Bowles get Bradley Beal.
Bucks get Zach Levine. And then the Pistons take Bobby Portis into their cap space.
And then you distribute some picks to the teams that should get them like the Bulls for taking Beal instead of Levine. But that would be the players that work salary-wise.
And so you've got Beal, maybe he'd waive his no-trade clause, get reunited with his college coach, Billy Donovan, Donovan, restore his career there. Who knows what his logic would be going there.
But I don't think there's many teams that Beal would wave his no-trade clause for. And I thought it was very, very interesting that Mark Bartlestein, his agent, came out again publicly tonight.
It's the second time he's spoken publicly about Beal. And he listed a bunch of teams, the Lakers, the Bs, the Heat, all these teams he's not waving his no trade clause for.
The Bulls weren't mentioned. That might be because the Bulls aren't a team that a lot of people are talking about publicly in this whole scenario, but you do have the other stuff reported earlier on Thursday about the Bucs looking at Zach Levine.
I don't think the Bucs would want Beal either. He's not necessarily an upgrade over this diminished version of Chris Middleton, but Zach Levine damn well is an upgrade over what you have in Middleton right now.
So maybe Beal to the Bulls is something that could make sense there, which is why I came up with those five teams. And the Pistons is the fifth team.
You could put other teams there, but they're the one with cap space, so it's just easy. That's a good word, KOC.
Here would be my counter. I don't understand why the Bulls have to get rid of Zach Levine.
He's played really well this year. I actually think he's an asset.
I'd want to keep him. We did the Ringer 100.
I had him in the 30s. I've watched him single-handedly beat the Knicks, the Celtics.
The better the competition is, the more he goes up a level. If I was Milwaukee and I could turn Chris Middleton or another contract into Zach Levine, I'm doing that in five seconds.
He's way better than Bradley Beal. Plus, he plays.
Yes. If I'm the Suns, I'd probably rather get Zach Levine than Jimmy Butler.
I think you're right.

I mean, like Jimmy Butler, obviously,

he's proven in the playoffs.

He was younger at that time.

Zach Levine also has not been in those situations. But if you remove last year

when he was out for the season with a foot injury,

he's been awesome since 2020.

He's been awesome.

And this year, he has the ball a lot,

which is like for the Lakers, he makes no sense because he's not going to have the ball nearly as much and he can't play defense, right? So if you're trading for him, it has to be a situation, like the Rockets won't do it, but he's somebody that makes a ton of sense for me if I'm the Rockets, even though he'd hurt a little defensively. He's somebody in the last five minutes of a game can actually like match baskets with whoever the best player on the other team is.
I think that's his superpower. Not a lot of guys...
The Suns don't necessarily need that, right? But if you're talking about the Bucs, who already have Dame and Giannis, but you're improving the Middleton spot with him, basically, the way Middleton's been playing this year, I think about it. We're aligned, though.
I think Levine's been good. I hate seeing him get thrown into these trades like he's not an asset.
I think he's an asset. It makes no sense.
I mean, I just pulled up some numbers prior to the recording bill, just because with Levine, a lot of people still think he's some diminished asset. But four of the last five years, if we remove last season, 45% on catch and shoot threes, 37% on dribble jumper threes, 45% on mid-range jumpers, 63% on unassisted shots at the rim.
He's caught 26 lob dunks. That's the fourth most of all guards in the NBA.
So he's versatile. We know he's a great athlete.
He's an elite shooter off the dribble and off the catch. He's versatile with how he gets to those shots, screens and handoffs, pick and roll.
He can shoot from mid-range. He can do a lot for your offense and fit into different roles at this point.
So just like I just forget about last year. He's been injury prone, but last year was the only year where it actually affected his performance ever since 2020.

So to me, if I'm the Bulls, I'd be happy to keep them.

I know that creates some roster issues with Kobe White and all that. Maybe you end up flipping him instead.
But Kobe White's also on a value contract. But Levine's been awesome, dude.
I can't understand why he's still viewed as some horrible asset at this point. The only reason to trade him is if you feel like your team doctors who have spent a lot of time with him are like sell high right now.
This is it. He's going to get hurt in two months.
That's the only reason. Maybe you do.
Maybe that's what it ends up being. If the Lakers say we'll give you two unprotected firsts, if the Suns say we'll give you Bradley Beal and two or three firsts

that we just received

in that really interesting deal

with the Jazz.

I would keep him.

I think he's going to be worth more,

especially like next year,

there'll only be two years

left on his deal.

They're going to be a playing team

unless Philly can catch them.

And I wouldn't want to play

that game in a winner-take-all,

that team in a winner-take-all

where all of a sudden

it's a tie game with five minutes left and Zach Levine is doing some of the stuff we've seen him do this year. Alright.
We're aligned on that. We're going to take a break.
We're going to come back. Fake trade time.
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All right.

I have some fake trades that I don't think will happen,

but I thought it would be fun to throw at you.

And then I want to hit a couple that I do think could happen, should happen, probably won't happen, but at least they're realistic. Trade number one, Bradley Beal for Paul George straight up.
Who says no? Bradley Beal says no. Bradley Beal says no.
That's right. All right.
Let's say he didn't have no trade clause. Okay clause so Bradley Beal has two years left after this year Paul George has three the Sixers called Phoenix and said we'll give you Paul George right now for Beal and the sons are like really? and they decide to do it Beal has that connection with Embiid remember Embiid was pushing for him a couple years ago.
I think Phoenix blinks faster with a no than Philly in that trade. I think both say no in the end.
Philly needs that big wing. They have enough guards.
They have Maxie. McCain's out for the year, but they still have him.
So you think they say no faster? I think Philly says no faster, but both end up saying no. I think Phoenix says no faster, but who knows? All right, next one.
Three-teamer. Oh, this is...
Miami gets Kevin Durant. Philly gets Jimmy Butler.
Phoenix gets Joel Embiid in a 2029 first. and Philly gets Jimmy Butler Phoenix gets Joel Embiid and Philly gets a 2029 first.
Philly's just out of the Embiid business they turn Embiid in a 2029 first from Miami into Jimmy Butler and they're just out never gonna happen to happen. Philly says no.
Philly's like, no, you can't give up on Embiid today. It leads me to this question.
Would Philly ever consider trading Embiid A? B, would anyone consider trading for Embiid when he plays 40 games a year max? Is he untradeable? Is he tradable? I have no idea. I think Embiid when he plays 40 games a year, max.
Is he untradeable?

Is he tradable?

I have no idea.

I think Embiid,

I think the Sixers would consider trading Embiid this summer.

Right now, today,

I don't think they would.

I just don't think you can today.

But this summer,

absolutely you could.

He starts a whole new contract,

$59 million next season,

and then $64 million,

and then $69 million the next three years.

Guaranteed with a player option.

Can you imagine Josh Harris, who also owns Washington, who's playing for the NFC title on Sunday and he gets a call about Sixers and he's just like, I don't even care. Just whatever.
Just don't make any trades. I'll deal with that this summer.
I just care about football. That's it.
Sixers are a loss. Get them out of here.
By the way, Bob Myers helped Washington with the football team. He was on that advisory committee.
I just feel like he's looming with the Sixers thing. I don't think I'm alone.
There's been some Bob Myers Philly buzz that I think has been building because I think he had a good experience with Josh Harris. Have you heard the same? interesting.
Now, the only thing I heard of Bob Myers is that the Sonics could be a team when they expand, whenever the NBA is going to do that. I think Bob Myers is lurking in general.
But I would not, if there is a fall guy, which we talked about earlier, it's going to be Nick Nurse and Daryl Morey. Unfortunately, I think the fact that Bob Myers is, yeah, maybe it's both.
One thing that Bob Myers does, builds the culture. That's what he was famous for, the Warriors, and you bring him into Philly.
So if it gets really bad, I just wouldn't be surprised. All right, so we both think- Bill, is Bob a tear down guy? Like if he did get hired by the Sixers, was he somebody to reset things? Or would he try to make it work in the bead?

I think he's a, how do we get this to a better place all the way around guy before we decide to blow this up, would be my guess.

That's what I'm thinking too.

Yeah.

Okay.

So we both think in bead, nothing happens until this summer.

I think more because the rest of the league would be like, yeah, cool.

In bead, no thanks.

Third trade. Do we think Brandon Ingram has any value? Not really.
Very little. Making like 33, something like that, but it's expiring.
I think the value is New Orleans takes back a contract with another year on it and you get a pick as well. But Ingram himself, the injuries, the iffy production, not a lot of value and just not a lot of time left on his contract for that matter either.
If you're Detroit, would you rather have Ingram for one year or Tobias Harris for two? I'm liking it with Tobias Harris. I don't think I'd want to screw up that chemistry right now.
Yeah, I think that's the right answer. All right, so I'm going to get rid of them in that trade.
And I'm going to knock it down to, is there something with San Antonio and McCollum? Sorry, CJ, I threw you into a trade. McCollum, San Antonio's trade Jones expiring.
Zach Collins, this year, next year, like 16 million. They have a little wiggle room where they could actually make a trade

and take a bigger salary back.

So there's ways to finagle it where they're basically just giving up

an expiring Collins, who is a guy next year.

They could give up.

They have a million picks.

I want to see the Spurs add one or two guys,

and that's going to be a recurring theme for the rest of my fake trades.

There's another version of this where it could be McCollum and Ingram together going from New Orleans to San Antonio and then New Orleans gets Jones, Collins, Harrison Barnes expiring and at least one 2025 first. I want to see San Antonio do something.
If you have a top seven player, you can't pretend you don't have a top seven player. If you have tradable stuff and a million picks, what's wrong with at least tweaking it and going for it a little bit? Is it possible you don't want to be too good too soon? Why? If it disperse? What's wrong with having another lottery pick this year in a draft where you can take Cooper Flagg if you end up getting lucky with the 5% or 6% chance with your lottery odds? It's impossible to go under 500 Wembe.
What's their record now? 19 and 22. 19 and 22.
All right. 10th best odds, 3% chance at the number one pick, which is unlikely.
So you're saying there's right now, there's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven teams. They're definitely not catching from a loss standpoint, plus Philly.
I mean, I'd like to see them add two for the right pieces. McCollum, point guard in his 30s.
I'm iffy there and I don't love the Ingram fit with Wendy. Okay, so you wouldn't do anything.
That's why I put it in the I'm not sure I would do this camp. I wouldn't do that.
There's other stuff I think I would do if I'm the Spurs, but I wouldn't do that. Okay.
Well, I have another Spurs trade for you. Okay.
This will never happen. I just want to...
None of these four trades I did,

none of them are happening.

Do you have a Zion one?

It's just a fun exercise.

I'd think about Zion.

That'd be fun.

Well, Zion's coming later.

Okay.

This is the official blow it up trade for Philly

where San Antonio gets Paul George,

Kyle Lowry, and Tyrese Maxey.

Ooh.

Wow.

Philly gets Barnes,

Zach Collins,

Jones,

Kelvin Johnson,

CP3,

and a slew of firsts.

Like just San Antonio,

like six firsts,

seven firsts,

whatever you do.

And basically Philly just gets out of this whole thing.

They do the super tank and they sell high on Maxey knowing they have McCain. This will never happen.
I just want to do it as a thought experiment. Maxi, Wemby, that's what I'm talking about.
Yeah. That's what I'm talking about.
Yeah. San Antonio overpays.
They pay 140 cents on the dollar, 170 cents on the dollar with all the extra picks they have, just with the end game being Maxie, Castle, Wemby, Vassell,

and this is our team going forward.

It'll never happen.

You kind of like this one.

I love it, yeah.

I mean, I'm into it.

It's kind of like the same reason why I liked Reed Shepard for them in the draft

because I want that shooting, smaller, quick, guard, speedy guy to pair with Victor.

I mean, I know the Chris Paul stuff is working. I get it.
It looks good. He's almost 40.
But he moves so slow, he can't get into the paint anymore. I think Wemby should be getting a lot more lob opportunities than he's been able to, but that's because Chris Paul is very slow and he's not able to beat guys off the dribble and defense because defenses can just switch.
You wouldn't be able to do that as much if it's Maxie or somebody like that. Would you still have Shepard over Castle with that pick? I think so.
I think so. Really? I love Castle.
I'm all in on that, dude. I mean, it was so close for me between those guys.
I think I had it Shepard, Castle, Klingen. Who do you have number one in a redraft now? Just throw all the teams out.
Who do you think the best asset is? I don't know if I'd change that at this point right now. I think I'd keep those three.
Was it Reed Shepard's 49-point performance in the G League that won you over? Yeah. Why do you think he hasn't been better in Houston? I just think it's a lack of playing time they just have too many guys yeah i mean who's he gonna i kept all my stock i haven't sold an ounce of reed shepherd stock but i love castle castle castle's awesome i would take him castle first heading into the draft i would take him first now i love how competitive he is i feel like he's getting better i think physically in like four years I think he's just going to be like just a beast.
I can't wait to see how he grows. If they, like let's say they got that Maxi deal or whoever the small guard is, Castle can be like your Iguodala type to like Stephen Curry.
Oh yeah. He does everything for your team.
He can defend every position, cut, spot up, screen, sometimes run, pick, and roll, handle the offense for you. The castle is just like a total true Swiss Army knife for that roster.
I don't know. I love him.
He's perfect with Victor, perfect for the Spurs. They're going to look out at some point.
There's going to be a team going sideways that wants to rebuild and trades their expensive point guard. You know, three weeks ago, you could have said maybe it's Sacramento, but they kind of readied the ship a little bit.
But at some point there's going to be somebody with some leverage and a team that is ready to, uh, to blow it up. Anyway, that trade's never happening.
So don't aggregate it. Um, did you have a fake trade that's never happening, but you still were enchanted by it? Let's see on my list.

I mean, I think most of mine, maybe you could say there's a chance.

So none of them, I would say, are super crazy.

You put them in the year saying a chance.

All right, let's move into trades we could actually see happening, even though they probably won.

I'll get you.

What's your first one?

All right, first one. Orlando Magic, Anthony Simons to the Magic for Cole Anthony, Jet Howard, and one first-round pick going to the Blazers.
So you upgrade over Cole Anthony with Anthony Simons, younger guy as well that still fits the roster for you moving forward in Orlando. And Portland gets Jet Howard.
Maybe he turns into something, a future pick, and they get some salary relief as well since you're going to have Cole Anthony, Jed Howard in pieces rather than that big Simons deal in the $25 million range. And Simons has some Orlando connections, I think.
Yes, he's from Florida. He's always been rumored as a possible magic thing.
And for Portland, it's all in. Let's get a full look at Scoot.
Scoot's been better as of late. He's shown signs of life.
So that's part of it. He's shown signs of life, all right.
There's been life. That's part of it for Portland here.
It's like you have Simons, who's taking a lot of those touches. He's absorbing a lot of those minutes.
Cole Anthony, great chemistry guy for the magic. That's one reason why you wouldn't want to move him.
But he can be that in Portland, too. He could be the backup spark plug point guard.
Simons is actually deserving of a bigger role. So I think he could get that with the magic that he can't get with Portland because you still need to invest in Scoot if you're the Blazers, despite all the ups and downs.
I think what we've seen the last five, six games, which I've been monitoring very closely, and plus the Billups quotes too. Billups seems like really fired up about him all of a sudden.
But stuff's clicking, things are happening, they're starting to move the team toward him. They're also in the tanking situation, so it's perfect.
Just let him make his mistakes. But I'm with you.
Simons probably needs to go for the scoop piece. I don't know what he's worth.
So if you're saying like Orlando gives up a first, that's going to be a bottom half of the first round first, unless it's this year's draft because their record isn't nearly as good as it would have been because of all the injuries. So they have, they own their own first the next six years.
I would probably want this year's first from them if I traded Simons. Because going forward, they're probably going to be a top eight or nine team.
So, alright. That's a fun one.
My first one. I want to get Cam Johnson, who's been floated around a lot and Brooklyn clearly wants to trade him.
I've decided Detroit should be the team that gets him. And Detroit has the Tim Hardaway expiring.
They have a weird situation with their pick because New York owns their pick. So it's like protected and it just keeps rolling over.
But then you can't trade 2025 or 26 because eventually it'll be realized in 27. So I was thinking, I wonder how the Knicks would help them out and remove the protections from the pick so that Detroit could trade this year's pick, try to get Cam Johnson and maybe that other Knicks pick.
Then I started thinking, you don't see teams do this as much, but what if the Knicks traded Mitchell Robinson to Detroit as part of the deal? and as part of the deal they got this giant trade exception and they forfeited their rights

to the Detroit first and they got

they run And as part of the deal, they got this giant trade exception and they forfeited their rights to the Detroit first.

And they got De'Ron Sharp back from the Nets.

And they just got a backup center

making $10 million less than Robinson.

And then the Nets would be like,

we'll give you D'Angelo Russell too.

He's available and the Knicks are going, no thanks.

But is there something there where

it could be a three-team or not a two?

The Knicks could get something out of it, cut some salary,

create an exception.

Maybe it's just Cam Johnson for Tim Hardaway in a pick

and it's a later pick.

But is there something there?

Because I feel like there is.

I would like the Pistons.

I want to see them get better.

I mean, it's complicated.

I'm just trying to figure out the salaries here. Mitchell Robinson to be clear he's going to he's 14 million Detroit could actually take it because to Detroit because they're way under the cap they have the cap well if they're taking Cam Johnson they won't be under the cap though did it in the trade machine, and it all worked because there's trade exception stuff, too.

Anyway, it could just be Cam Johnson and Hardaway in a pick, and we could make it easier because that works, too.

I mean, I'm intrigued.

I mean, regardless of the surrounding pieces, the idea of Cam Johnson on the Pistons makes a lot of sense. As a better as a better Tim Hardaway.
Yes. That's the type of guy they should be going for, for sure.
Like if it's a, if it's an easier deal to make, then that maybe, but like, I don't know about all the other pieces, but Cam Johnson on the Pistons. Yes, please.
Like that's a good idea. I made it too complicated, but yes, like just simply that idea.
I like, yes. I, if I were the Knicks, I'd be thinking of a way to dump Mitchell Robinson in a trade and get a cheaper big back and try to get some cap space, some apron relief, some luxury tax relief, and some flexibility with some sort of trade exception would be my dream scenario.
I have a Mitchell Robinson trade in part for that reason. Let's hear it.
I got the Knicks in the jazz. I got Mitchell Robinson, Deuce McBride, who would pain me to trade, and Precious Achua for Colin Sexton, Walker Kessler, and a salary filler in his feed by Kyle Luke.
So in this case, you would do this deal if you're the Knicks knowing that Mitchell Robinson may not be coming back for the entire season. And so you get Walker Kessler back to fill a simmer roll.
You get Colin Sexton as an upgrade over Deuce McBride. I love Deuce.
I think Deuce is better than Tom Thibodeau. I mean, Tom Thibodeau barely plays him, though.
He barely plays any of the guys off the bench. So maybe you don't even make this deal for that reason, knowing Tibbs is going to have Walker Kessler playing eight minutes a game and Sexton playing 15.
But maybe he would play some of those guys more. So I think if you're the Knicks, something along those lines, I'd be wanting to get another center because as much as I really like Precious Achua, I want a true five.
I want another true rim protector next to Cat because what they've been doing lately in the lineups have worked well, but they've barely played Cat with Achua. It's worked when they have.
It's been really successful for that team, but I want to see somebody that allows Cat to be in that role he was next to Gobert in Minnesota. I know Achua doesn't offer the rim protection that, say, Walker Kessler could, so maybe I've made that deal too complicated and you trim it down to something like...
No, I see what you're trying to do with it, though. I just, if I'm Utah, I don't.

Why do I have to trade Kessler if I'm Utah?

Is what I keep coming back to every time I see his name in trade rumors.

I mean, that's the case with a lot of guys.

Like what? Why am I trading this guy?

Yeah, I'm sure you do want him.

He's a young guy in a super cheap contract and he produces and he protects the rim.

Why do I have to trade him?

Like they're probably, I would assume they're going to try to be good next year or try to be better. How many years in a row can you throw away? There's something there.
I think the Knicks have to think that way. How can they package stuff? They're going to go get BYU's AJ Devansa.
One more year of being crappy. Oh, you think they're throwing away another one? One more year.
Just one more if you're the Jazz.

And also

next year's class has more than just

AJ too. Next year's class, you get the

Boozers, you got Kareem Lopez

who's dominating in the NBL right now

at 17 years old in a men's

league. So there's a lot of guys in

next year's class that could be

a number one quality pick. So I

think it's one more year for Utah.

Where's the Bansa in the

Brockton rankings right now?

It's got to be number one.

No, Hagler's got to be one, right?

Right, today.

All-time.

Rising.

All-time, yes.

The Bansa's going to prove it. Is it Rocky Marciano

from Brockton? Yeah, over my shoulder, these two bobbleheads. I got Marvin Hagler and Rocky Marciano.
So Marciano and Hagler are one, too. All time.
Yeah, they're one, too, without a doubt. I need to take a break before I throw this next straight at you, so we're taking a quick break.
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I'm glad you're sitting down. Take a deep breath.
What if San Antonio traded for Jordan Poole and Jonas Valanciunas and gave up Jones and Collins and a first round pick and kind of dabbled in getting better, but didn't really do it and didn't really give up anything. And if you're Washington, you're like, this is great.
Now we got rid of the one guy who can actually win games for us. We got rid of a center that keeps getting mentioned in these trades.
We know what happens with these centers. They always end up going for second round picks.
Nobody gives up a first round pick for the $9 million pretty good center. But if you're San Antonio and you could add just Jordan Poole and Valanciunas for nothing, like basically nothing, why wouldn't you do that? So with Jordan Poole, Bill, throughout his entire basketball life, he's been a near 90% guy from the free throw line.
He's had touch near the basket on floaters, but he's never been a consistent three-point shooter until this season 25 years old over 40 from three for the first time in his entire career after he was a below 34 guy what if this is the new jordan pool what if he figured 2022 finals jordan pool is really jordan pool and draymond green just punched it out of him for two years. I think he's worth taking our...
It's this year and the next two on his contract. He's overpaid, there's no question.
But if you're San Antonio, what do you care? You're not spending that much money anyway. And for Poole, it's not like you have him until he's 27, 28 years old.
So it's not a long-term commitment. I think he's been legitimately good this year.
I actually like watching him on the Wizards this year, right? I know. The Wizards went from one of the worst watchers in the league last year to, oh, wait a minute, they're pretty fun.
Poole's been really good. Alex Sar is getting better.
They've been a fun team to watch. Well, you can tell who's not watching the Wizards when people are like, what if they can get Kyle Kuzma? And it's like, you obviously haven't watched a Wizards game this year.
He's been one of the worst players of the league. Nobody wants Kyle Kuzma.
Kuzma has not been good. But Poole, I'm intrigued.
I'm intrigued because for a long time... So you like this one? This might be the first one we've fully agreed on.
I like this one because Poole is the type of guy that I think is worth a swing. Like for the Spurs, these guys, I don't want to get...
When they first drafted Wemby, Bill, I was thinking, oh, they should accelerate. They should go after Brooke Lopez and have another big.
They should go after a veteran and really support Victor and be good right away. I've backed off that the last year and a half.
I want them instead to take these short-term guys who are swings. I'd be open to Zion, Jordan Poole types, guys like that who help you be competitive, but you're not having to overspend all of your future baskets because the time you're going to be really wanting to trade in those assets, like the two future picks you got from Minnesota, the picks you have from the Hawks, that's going to be in the next two, three, four years.
And that range when Victor's into his mid twenties,

that's when it's time to go build and try to go forward and take those

really big swings on proven guys.

I still think you want to be,

but I still think you want to be competitive in a real way now,

which is what Preston did with OKC the last couple of years, right?

He's he,

and just because he lucked out in a bunch of different ways, but his skill a GM but also guys blossoming maybe faster than he thought but all that stuff was good for them those games that OKC played the last two years led to this year I think if you're San Antonio you want to start thinking that way can this year and next year lead to two years from now we're a 60. And they are competitive.
They're just slightly below 500.

They're really great when Victor's on the floor.

They're tough at the end of games.

They have the same problem Houston has,

where it's, you know,

if he's not getting the ball in the right spots,

it's really, or Vassell is really the only other one

I kind of trust with the ball.

CP's too old now.

And Vassell's been disappointing this season.

No, he has, but I mean,

at least I feel like he can get the shot that he wants. I don't know if it's going in.
But it's really hard for them to create offense down the stretch. And Jordan Poole, no issues creating his own shot.
Jordan Poole, no issues. So we're aligned on that one.
I would love to see them do something like that. I like it.
I'm into it. That's a good creative idea.
I hadn't thought about Jordan Poole as a target for the Spurs. That's a good one.
Do your Zion one. You must have a Zion to the Spurs one.

I don't have a Zion to the Spurs one.

I was just intrigued by the idea after you mentioned

the Pelican strides. I'm all in.

I mean, there's multiple ways that could go.

I don't know how many picks would have to be involved, but I think

putting Zion, I talked about this a couple weeks ago,

rolling the dice with Zion

with that team,

with the spotlight of being Wemby's

teammate, different organization,

a lot of history, titles,

Tim Duncan sitting there courtside every once in a while.

I'm going to go would just do it. Can I give you a three-way of just kind of, it's like a Yankee swap and Christmas? Sure.
Milwaukee gets Tobias Harris, making $25.3 million this year on the books for next year too. Minnesota gets Chris Middleton, $31.7 million.
Detroit gets Julius Randle, $33.1 million. This actually works in the trade machine.
So Detroit's taking almost $8 million extra salary to quote unquote upgrade from Harris to Randle, maybe for this year, maybe this year and next year, if he opts in. Minnesota's saving a little money and getting rid of the Julius Randall issue.
That's kind of haunted them all season, even though I think he's a good basketball player. It just doesn't make sense for them.
So they would save 1.6 million, which with the tax becomes like 20 million or some crazy number. And just kind of people passing stuff around.
I kind of like it. And Milwaukee saving money.
But I kind of like the idea of Randall on Detroit because even Monday, everyone was going nuts about Cade. Cade had 10 turnovers in that game.
He has the ball all the time. He kind of needs one more person.
I don't want Randall in Detroit. So you don't want Randall anywhere.
Is there a team you want Randall? Brooklyn. So you think he's become a good stats, bad team guy? Yeah, I think that's exactly what he is.
I mean, it's crazy to say that about a dude who was two-time All-NBA, and he's had some really good seasons, but he's just been horrible for Minnesota this year. And he's also had times where he was horrible for the Knicks.
And so you have this really good thing going right now with the Pistons. And I know Cade's not perfect yet, but I don't want Randall clogging the lane for Cade when things are finally opening up for him.
And he's looking like a borderline all-NBA guy. But why do you like it for the other teams, though? I'm just curious.
I like saving money if I'm Milwaukee. And I like saving a little money if I'm Minnesota and getting rid of the Randall piece.
And for Detroit, I think the bet would just be, Randall was 24-10 and was an all-NBA forward a couple times for the Knicks and got put in one of the worst possible situations in Minnesota for him as a basketball player where it just doesn't make sense. Maybe there's an actual asset here.

Or is that in part his fault

that it's not working perfectly?

Oh, it's definitely partly his fault because he doesn't

know how to play any other way. But that's

the thing. It's like,

well, maybe on a different team there's something

more here. I would think about it.

But I also think that Troy

probably has better moves. I like Cam

Johnson for them more than

Randall. But Randall's

Thank you. more here.
I would think about it. But I also think that Troy probably has better moves.
Like I like Cam Johnson for them more than Randall, but I, Randall's not, to me, he's not a sunk cost. Like Beal is a sunk cost to me.
I don't see a scenario where he's worth that money ever again. Randall, I'm not positive.
So I have Nick, I'm sure you do too. I know some Knicks fans who still swear by Randall and we're like, guy getting a bad rap.
He was really good for us. Those people are out there.
Then there's other Knicks fans who can't stand him. Give me a trade.
All right, I got a small one. This is a Suns one.
Yusuf Nurkic and one of the first you got in that Utah deal to the Blazers for Robert Williams. Send Nurk back to Portland.
Get Time Lord, obviously injury prone, but he's a lob guy, fits the Nick Richards profile. And he makes way less money than Nurkic.
Yes, so you're saving money and you're getting a guy who fits your roster. Portland probably has to throw something else in there to make the salaries work.
It works salary-wise. Nurkic for Williams.
Yep, it does. I mean, I would do it just to get off the Nerkic money next year and save the luxury tax.
Nerkic is, I don't know if he's not the worst contract in the league, but when you think about, he's one of the most untradeable, I think. Two years.
It was hilarious. Yeah.
It was hilarious earlier in the year when the Suns fans were thinking that they could turn Nerkic into Vucevic somehow. It's like, what planet are you on? Nurkic has been awful.
Nobody wants Nurkic. Now they traded for Nick Richards and he doesn't play at all.
So, I would do that for both teams because Nurkic had, the only thing is if you're trading a center, if I'm Portland, do I want to get a center back? Is it worth it just to get a random pick? Is there a way to make that a three-way deal where Nurkic goes somewhere else? Maybe Nurkic comes off the bench for you behind Klingen, something like that. But then you have the Aiton issue as well.
But I want to see them go with too big sometimes. I'd like to see them try that out more often.
I think Billups is resistant to doing that, but at least Nurkic is a guy he's a vet. Maybe he plays a little bit off the bench for you, but being back in Portland, maybe he won't pout like he is in Phoenix right now.
Is Aiton a trade piece to you in any way? I don't think so. So he's another one.
I agree with you. He's been productive, but who's trading for him at $30-plus million? So many teams have fives right now.
I don't think there's many teams out there that would want a five making his money with how inconsistent he is. Yeah.
I don't know the team. I'm not sure.
New Orleans made sense a little bit before the season, but not so much right now. Yeah, they're 12 and 32.
Yes, they're the only team that I really had thought of before the season. At this point, I don't see something there for him.
I have one more big trade, so give me one more from you before I do my big one. Let's see.
I got one right here. I got a Cam Johnson one.
I mentioned this on my podcast with Bobby Marks earlier in the week, and he was iffy on it, so I'm curious about your thoughts. Cam Johnson to the

Cavs for Isaac Okoro,

rookie Jalen Tyson,

Niang's contract, and their

unprotected 2031 first.

Bobby was

iffy on it because the Cavs

you could argue, and I think his reason

is pretty sound here, you could

argue the Cavs should try to get under the luxury tax this year to not get that clock started. So you become a team over the tax multiple years in a row.
Once Mobley has to be re-signed and all these guys' deals come up. And so Bobby was like, maybe you go the other way and try to trade a guy to get under the tax.
I think that makes sense. At the same time, Cam Johnson is very clearly an upgrade over Isaac Okoro.
He adds dynamic shooting ability to your team when you're on a 70-win pace. This could be your chance to go for it.
This could be the only year. Who knows what's going to happen in the future? So I like the idea of at least going for it this year and trying to roll the dice with somebody like Cam Johnson adding more upside to your team.
I don't like it. I don't tell you why.
I think if that team loses in the playoffs, it's going to be because of their inability to guard wings, right? Cam Johnson's not helping me with that. So if I'm using my last trade chip, and I agree, their shooting's great.
That always helps. But I don't think he's playing crunch time for them

because now I have Garland out there

and Cam Johnson

like if I'm playing Tatum and Brown

who's guarding Tatum and Brown

if I'm playing those guys together

so I feel like if they're going to do a trade

like that and go into the major attacks

I need somebody who can

potentially guard

Jason Tatum

in the last five minutes of a game six

in Boston

Thank you. the major attacks.
I need somebody who can potentially guard Jason Tatum in the last five minutes

of a game six in Boston.

And I don't think it's Cam Johnson.

That would be my count.

I don't know who it is, though, that you can go

get. I mean, Isaac Okoro's a better

defender, but he also is somebody that you're

going to be helping off of on defense. It's always

a push-pull with these guys.

So, for the Cavs, you have limited assets. Why do they have to do anything? They're playing really well.
I guess that's my other question with them. They seem like they all love playing with each other and they're having a great season.
Sometimes continuity is the move, right? Yep. Sometimes it is.
And sometimes you regret not trying to add another piece. They can go both ways.
I think it depends. Like, Cam Johnson's a good guy.
I think he could fit into any locker room flawlessly. I don't think it'd be an issue adding him to the team.
Yeah, he's been great. So I just think if you're talking about, like, who defends Tatum, who defends Brown, like, it's hard to defend those guys, all these great players at that level anyway, unless you have a truly elite.
Maybe it's easy to defend Jalen Brown lately. Right now it is.
Hey, he's going to try that fall away again from the foul line. That'd be great.
Try that one more time. Drive to the middle of the floor with your left hand again.
But I think for the Cavs, if you're talking about that matchup issue, I mean, you do have Dean Wade, who's been really good defensively for you. But even then, Dean Wade alone isn isn't stopping those guys it's having Evan Mobley shade over and help it's having Jared Allen presence at at the basket it's Donovan Mitchell helping at the nail and shading help over like it's a it's more than one guy so I don't think Cam Johnson some liability by any means he's just an average defender but he's definitely somebody they would pick on compared to the others yeah by the the way, if you're picking on anybody, like if it's an in-game lineup, it's Garland.
It's Garland still. But now I have two guys I can pick on.
I'm using Cam Johnson's guy to set the screen for Garland and it's like a feast now. Could be.
It's an interesting one because on the other hand, you could say, well, we're just going to outscore everybody. Now we have Cam Johnson.
We're scoring 120

points a game and we'll figure out

how to get some stops. I'd be

really scared to do that much if I

was Cleveland because it seems like one of the few teams

we have right now that actually really likes playing with

each other. How many teams

when you watch these games, how many teams

actually seem like they all like each other?

It's less than five. OKC.

OKC.

They're the number one version of that. Cleveland.
I mean, obviously

one and two, both one seeds.

Boston really likes each other, even

though they're not playing that well. I'd put them on that list.

They're just bored. I think Boston's bored

right now. No question.

Do you have another one? Because I have one big

one. Is there another one you want

to throw? Go with your big one.

You ready for the big one?

I got my favorite ones out. Yeah.
It's an Anthony Davis trade. The thinking is we've gone as far as we can go.
We've done everything we could for you, LeBron. You've been here since 2018.
We won a title together. We went and got your guy, Anthony Davis.
We drafted your son and gave him a no-cut contract.

Every time you've pushed us to do something,

we've done it, including the Russell Westbrook trade,

which you were hands-off after that happened.

We've taken this as far as we can go.

And we're not going to mortgage any more of the future for this because for the first time ever,

the Clippers have a better arena than us and probably a better team. And there's something cool happening with them and there's nothing cool happening with us.
And we're not going to be held hostage by this anymore. The story in sports, decades after decades, is people trying to appease aging superstars.
It never ends well. We're not going to do it.
We're going to zag the other way.

We're going to trade Anthony Davis to the Golden State Warriors.

Oh, man.

And we're going to get back your buddy Draymond Green,

Schroeder's expiring,

Kaminga, Jackson Davis,

Golden State's

25 and 27 first,

and a 20-29

pick swap. That's LA's call.
We're cashing in. What do you think? Are you sure this is the Lakers going the other way? Draymond is still a really good defender.
It's a pretty good trade. They're getting Draymond, Schroeder, Kaminga.
They get to roll dice to them, Jackson Davis. And if you're the Warriors, you still have enough left and you're going to build around Davis and Curry going down the stretch and you could probably get creative with some other moves.
It's kind of fun. I don't think the Warriors do it, but I'm intrigued.
Too many picks? Yeah. Too many picks.
All right, so let's just say this year's number one, which would be in the middle of the draft, and a 27 unprotected first. So now I don't think the Lakers do it now.
You think Steph would break up? Let's say the Warriors are in a position. They're no to blowing it up, no to, you know, trading Steph and Draymond this summer, right? Let's just say they're not going to do that.
Do you think Steph would be willing to break up with Draymond in this scenario? I think the only team that you could talk yourself into this being a realistic scenario is the Lakers. Because Draymond gets to live in Los Angeles and play with LeBron.
Draymond might want it to happen. Draymond might be like, this sounds great.
I've always wanted to be on the Lakers. Let's do it.
I also think it's way harder to find an Anthony Davis trade that makes sense than people realize. Because I see, I have people in my life, it's time to trade Davis.
It's like, where? You're not trading me Houston. They can't even trade Shangoon this year.
It would have to be this summer. And at that point, LeBron's 41.
And people probably know, you go around the league, you would have said in the past, oh, that maybe they get Carl Anthony Towns and some

picks for him.

But Carl Anthony Towns is playing great, you know, and you go around the league.

I think it's really hard to find the right trade for him that he'd be excited about

to put him on a team that could actually win a title.

Like, could it be Oklahoma City?

No, they're not mortgaging everything for Davis when they have Shea's big contract coming up and they got to pay Jalen Williams soon. They're going to have to play Chet Holmgren soon.
And they're not trading Chet for him. So you go through all the teams and I think it's way harder to figure out.
I even was like, oh, Orlando will be a good one. Go look at their contracts.
What's the Orlando trade? They can barely even match all the contracts to get to where AD is. So Golden State the only one that made sense.
Orlando's interesting, though. If they were to give Isaac, who's like 24 million, I'm doing this on the top of my head, Cole Anthony who's like 12, and then I think Jett Howard.
So Isaac would have to be in the trade. Yeah.
Maybe that gets you there. Orlando would be interesting, too.
The problem is the way the league is now with these different rules, it's really hard to make like a five for one, right? You need that one awesome $28 million contract that you can put in a trade like that and they just don't have it. So they could put, you know, they could put, you said, what'd you say, Cole Anthony? Something like that.
I'm pulling up a trade machine right now. Yeah, I'm looking at SpotTrack.
Isaac at 25, Anthony at 12.9, and then Jet Howard at 5.3. I think Caldwell Pope would have to be in it.
Right? I'm not sure if he has to be up. Oh, Isaac makes 25 this year.
That is pretty high. Yeah, 25.
That's not what I said on the trade machine. It would work.
Yeah, 80 is $43.2 million.

And then for Isaac, Anthony, and Jet Howard,

those guys are...

Well, wouldn't Carter have to be in that trade, though?

No, I mean, it wouldn't have to be.

Like, finance-wise, he wouldn't have to be.

Like, you could put him in there

instead of Cole Anthony, potentially, I think.

Is Saruti on this?

No, no, no.

You can't do...

Wendell Carter can...

You could do Wendell Carter. No, you can't trade Wendell Carter.
Is Saruti on this, Zoom, or no no. You can't do Wendell Carter.
You could do Wendell Carter.

No, you can't trade Wendell Carter.

Is Saruti on this Zoom or no?

I can't.

Carter has a trade restriction.

Saruti, pop on for a second.

Let's talk this out.

What's up, guys?

You knew this was coming.

What's up, Saruti?

All right.

80 for Isaac, Anthony, and Howard, and then a bunch of picks.

No, let's put Carter in there.

I don't think the Lakers...

You can't trade Carter. Carter cannot be traded this season.
Oh, Cause he had the extension. Yes.
So he can't be traded. Yeah.
What do you think, Saruti? I think about it. I mean, I've been, I feel like, I feel like you, when we were in Denver, that we were talking about that, I was like the King of the, like, yeah, Lakers should trade AD.
Like, what's the what's the point like get what you can get for him I never even thought of this as a possibility

I mean it's not really what they need but just imagine that team like that could that has like

all-time defensive capabilities that would be absurd I mean just go all in on your identity

I'd be a little bit worried about you know I don't know he just the injury the concerns and

the age profile stuff but it would be kind of fun.

So you'd have to do 25,

27,

29,

and 31.

I think you'd have to do four unprotected first,

probably throw in the Denver first that you have that's rolls over.

And then maybe a swap.

Like how many,

how many picks is that KOC?

I mean,

you just listed five,

six. Do you want to give all those picks for 80? I think that's where I say no.
I think that's where I say no. Because, you know, is the timeline right? Like when in two years, like they're not winning East this year.
I mean, maybe next year they could be a top three team. I mean, let's see about the health situation.
But like it feels like they're going in completely opposite directions. Can I pause button you right now? Yeah, go ahead.

You'd have a starting front line of

AD, Palo, and

Franz. The timeline

is like now when all those guys come

back. I don't want to play that team.

I don't want to see that team in a playoff series.

The timeline is this year if you do that.

I want to do it

for all those picks. But if it doesn't work out, you're kind of screwed, right? I want to do it for all those picks.
Three picks? I'd be cheap there if I'm the magic. Like, 80's 31 right now.
He's got four years left until he's 34, 35 years old. And he's going to be making almost $60 million the next three years.
KOC, this is the part where I remind you that the Knicks traded five first-round picks for Mikael Bridges. I know.
That's the bar. 11th best guy in the league.
That's the bar. I think it has to be five picks.
I think I'd say it now. I think I'm saying it.
Wow! And just wait for something else to happen. Three picks? But here's the one thing, Sir Rudy, right? What is that next thing? No, you next thing? Because let's say there's a player that anytime a player that becomes available who's better than AD, it's going to be Utah or the Thunder or the Spurs or the Rockets, the Nets, these teams that have more picks in quantity and quality.
The Magic only has their own. The Rockets can trade for them this summer.
There's Shen Yun and a bunch of stuff and go get them in July. Yes, exactly.
All these other teams have more quantity and quality that the Magic can't wait for that top five guys. Right, they're trumping, they're jumping the line and grabbing them now.
Yep. Yeah, but I think I'm, you know, let those guys go big fish hunting,

and we'll just make moves around the edges and kind of like,

because you've got the two guys.

You've got the guys that matter, you know?

Like, ugh.

I...

So I don't...

I just disagree with you.

It would be a better case if you were like,

I'm not sure we should trade for Anthony Davis,

who was super injury-prone during the year that Palo and Franz both suffered

the exact same injury and Mo

Wagner got hurt and Suggs got hurt.

We do not want to bring our

karma to Anthony Davis. Make sure the obliques

are iced up for every game, I know.

What's Anthony Davis'

oblique situation? Is it okay?

He just

from meets those guys and he strains it.

Orlando's the only other one.

I went through everybody else. I just

Thank you. Oh my God.
I didn't know NBA players heard a place until... He like strains it.
Orlando's the only other one. I went through everybody else.
I just... You know, there's like Sacramento.
If you could do like a Sabonis Davis. But I don't know where that gets either team.
I think it's Orlando. I like Golden State.
I like the Golden State one. It feels like that's a timeline match thing.
That just kind of works out. I will say this.
That trade I laid out, if that actually happened, would be one of the most fun trade moments of the 21st century. There's so much going on in that trade in all different directions that it just feels like we would talk about that for 10 straight days.
Thanks to Rudy. Thanks, guys.
KOC, any last trades before we go? No, that's all I had listed, Bill. That 81 has me thinking, though.
I mean, because for the Lakers, Bill, you're right. I don't think they're going to necessarily go the other way that you're proposing, but it's something they should at least think about.
This week, I made the case writing the Warriors should blow it up because they're not going anywhere. Steph's declining.
Draymond's declining. At least they're showing signs of it this year.
It reminds me of the 2012-13 Celtics when KG and Pierce were still really good, but they clearly were beginning to fall a little bit. And they make the deal that leads to Tatum and Brown.
And so I think the Warriors are in that spot where at least the front office and ownership should be thinking about it. And for the Lakers, obviously LeBron, I mean, LeBron's not the same guy.
He's just not. He's still a great player, but he's not the same level player.
And AD, who knows when the injuries will start perking back up again. So they should think about it.
I just think that Lakers roster is still worth at least exploring, adding more.

But if the Magic call up and offer you four firsts and two swaps,

you've got to take that meeting and really think hard about it. Because if you do that, then that opens up your ability to say, oh, guess what? We are open to LeBron trades.
And then if you were to get something for LeBron too, suddenly you'd have the most picks in the NBA. And then you're in a team that can go get somebody.
But how many contenders, how many contenders,

teams that actually have a chance to win the title,

are a realistic option

for a 40-year-old guy

making 50 million a year

with no trade clause?

I can't find a single team.

Even if you said like,

oh, Cleveland,

he wants to come back home.

It's like, if I'm Cleveland,

do I want to...

That's a pretty aggressive

re-shaking of the roster.

I wouldn't do that.

I want to do it without LeBron

if I'm Cleveland.

Yeah.

Well, also, you have such a good thing. Now you're bringing somebody who, you know, the two generations of guys in the league, like Revere.
It's really hard for him to be like, all right, just set some picks and hit a couple corner threes for us. He's going to have the ball.
I don't know what the team is for him. So, and I don't, I don't think he wants to leave LA anyway, so it's not realistic.
Davis as a trade is more realistic to me, but I just don't, the Lakers organization. I don't understand why they kowtow to these guys.
Maybe the sons for LeBron, somebody like that short flight away from LA instead of Jimmy Butler. But now the Lakers are taking Beal.
Like, they don't want... I don't want to turn LeBron into Beal.
No, thank you. Also, like, if you're the Lakers and you trade LeBron, all of a sudden your games...
Like, if you're going to actually rebuild or you're going to, like, blow it up or whatever, like, there is still... People go to the games to see LeBron.
He's one of the greatest players in the history of the league. Like that's still a draw and they're still in this mix where they seem relevant.
People who don't actually watch basketball that much think they're still a contender. And there's an illusion of competitiveness that is to me, not real, but you at least have that.
Once you, once you start blowing this up, now you're where you were in the mid-2010s. Why is that? Is that because of LeBron not being top two, top three anymore? Is that why? Or is that more something about the supporting cast? Why do you think that is? Well, I mean, he's 40.
He's not close to being the same guy that he used to be. He's still one of the 10 to 15 best guys.
80, you said 11th best or something like that. If you still have two top 15 guys.
But LeBron doesn't play defense anymore. I don't understand how anyone could put him in the top 12 to 15 at this point.
So you don't have him up there? I don't. I don't.
I would have him in the top 25. I think it's really hard to beat good teams when you have multiple holes on defense like they have.
I think that's a fair statement. When they have, they're playing Reeves and Kinect and LeBron all at the same time, it's like you can't play defense that way.
And I'm not, what position is the perfect position for him ideally? It's the four. And Then you have really playing with him.
Really, you want to have perimeter guys and you want shooting, but that would mean LeBron would have to guard bigger guys and rebound more and step up on that. It just doesn't seem like he has enough in the tank to do that anymore.
They're in a weird conundrum with him because he gets his stats. You can catch the right night.
He looks great, but I don't see it night to night. When we get to the playoffs, it's every other game.
So if I was the Lakers advisor, would either of us say, like, you guys have a chance to make the finals with this team? You're one move away? I don't think they are. They're two moves away from at least having a chance.
Everyone's two moves away. Well, that's exactly why it's difficult for them.
They're two moves away from at least having a chance. Everyone's two moves away.

Well, that's exactly why it's difficult for them.

They're two moves away from having a chance,

and even then they're still not the favorite.

I'm still not taking them in a series against OKC or Denver.

I still think they're probably a second round out,

even if they do get Levine, even if they do get Kessler.

But you'd have a better shot in that scenario but I still want to pick them

for all the reasons we're talking about. You would need so much luck with

you'd need an OKC injury

you'd need something weird to happen with you'd have to

go down and there would have to be a dumb thing

that happened with every team

I just think. And it can happen that

the Warriors had a pretty good path

in 2022 and like Kerr

talked about recently and they

win it all. It's

not impossible to happen

so that's what they know way but I

Thank you. in 2022 and like her talked about recently and they they win it all like it's it's not impossible to happen um so that that's what they know way but i i do think you know if a team calls up for ad it makes a significant offer they need to be thinking about that they have to who do you have in the finals right now still okc in the west though denver really intrigues me just the way they're playing lately Like we talked about earlier with Ross stepping up and everything.
And Murray looks way better than he did four weeks ago. He looks way better.
He looks more like himself. And then in the East, I'm still going to take the Celtics for now, even though I think the shooting I'm worried about most, because some of the other stuff, I think they're just bored.
This happens almost every December into January with them. But the shooting, they're closer to the middle of the pack and three-point percentage this season.
I wonder if there's some tired legs there. Drew Holiday has regressed as a shooter.
Derek White has as of late. And Jerry Lynn Brown looks like there's just something off with him.
I worry there, but I'll still lean towards Boston right now over Cleveland. That may change by the end of the season, though.
Yeah, it's tough. When you win the title, you go one of two ways.
You can either come out the next season like a bat out of hell or you just assume you can turn it on any time you want. They started out one way, and I think they've settled into the other way where it's like, we're fine, we're fine.
I don't like that they don't have home court in the last two rounds, the way this is shaken out, though. I don't think that's nothing.
It's all fine until it's game six at home with a game seven in the other place. You're down 3-2 for the series, and you fall behind by nine in the second quarter.
And the fans are like, oh, my God. Our season might...
We'll see. I'd like to see them have one streak KOC because I think that's what separates the real teams from everybody else.
Like these teams that could just rip off 11 straight, 12 straight. Last year, they were a 25-game winning streak threat for every month of the season.
And this year, they can't play five good games in a row. Who worries you most besides Cleveland in the East? Still Milwaukee? Milwaukee always because Giannis.
Orlando a little bit because of the defense. I'm still like Orlando.
I'm not just saying this to make Cerruti's night. Orlando's just kind of hanging out over there with this crazy defense.
They're not beating Boston. Their offense, their 30th and 3.0.
They haven't had their guys. I know, but even with those guys, their offense isn't there yet.
The defense scares me because this Celtics team can look really clumsy and really static and the toilet ball offense can go into full effect and with all those guys they have, they have just guys to throw at Tatum and Brown and I don't like the way the guards on the Celtics have played for two months. We're taping this before I go to the Clipper game tonight and I'm going to the Laker game tomorrow and I really want to see it in person.
Are these guys do they look different athletically? Is this just a funk that's going on? I guess we'll find out. The Olympics may have been very bad for those guys.
Very possible. White and Holiday having a long offseason, a long playoffs.
Something's off with those guys. That's where my concern is as well as with those guards and the overall team shooting ability.
And the Knicks, obviously, I wouldn't look forward to seeing them in a series either because they have good basketball players and Brunson's really good and Towns has been playing great so you know I do think when you play that team for two weeks a little easier to figure out but you know the East is way better you think last year it was like a walk in the park which wasn't their fault but that's what it was this year a little different Milwaukee we'll see if they make too. The team they have right now, I wouldn't be afraid of, but they're one move away from me being more afraid, right? If they were to get Levine, they'd be really scary.
That would be scary because he kills the Celtics. That would be one of those.
All the Celtic fans would be like, oh, no, they got that guy? Levine, Giannis would be beautiful together. That would be incredible.
Lopez has been great this year for them too. If they can subtract Portis and upgrade from Middleton, I think they're cooking.
They get something there. All right, KOC, good to see you again.
You can follow his podcast, subscribe, listen to it, and you can read him on Yahoo as well. Great to see you.
Great to see you too, Bill. Have a good night.
All right. That's it for the podcast.
Thanks to KOC. Thanks to Kyle and Saruti and Gahau.
Don't forget, you can watch

this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel and I will be back tomorrow night with yet another

podcast. We're going heavy on the football tomorrow as you would probably expect.
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