Dame Goes Down, Jokic-Curry Beauties, Ant’s L.A. Takedown, and Shedeur Theories With Ryen Russillo and Van Lathan Jr.

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We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I have a new rewatch that was going up on Monday night. It is a one for us.
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Coming up on this podcast. So this is a weird one because Ryan Russell and I went live right after the Indiana-Milwaukee game, which featured, unfortunately, a pretty dramatic moment.
Not great for Dame Lillard. But so we talked about the whole weekend.
And then me, Russell, and Ben Lathan, we taped right after the Lakers-Minnesota

game and talked about the NFL draft as well. So that's the second hour of the podcast.

That's already up on YouTube. So if you're watching this live, watch us live, and then

you can go watch that video as well. So pretty action-packed Sunday here on the BS pod.
First,

our friends from Pearl Jam. All right.

We are here.

It's nine o'clock.

Rusillo is here.

We already taped an hour earlier this afternoon.

You can go watch it on my YouTube channel.

Me, Van, Rusillo.

We covered the Lakers.

And that's coming up later in this podcast, too. Rusillo, I was all excited to talk about what a great basketball weekend this was.
And then a damper in that Milwaukee-Indiana game. It looked like Dame, I assume he tore his Achilles.
We've seen enough of these now to think that that's probably what it looked like. It wasn't great, and it really feels like we are now at the finish line of this

Milwaukee area. So we'll start with the Dane piece because it's just been star crossed really since the moment he showed up in Milwaukee.
He's in his mid thirties. He's a small guard, tough to come back anyway.
Feel bad for him. This never worked out.
And then big picture, there's a lot of Yana stuff to talk about. So you tell me, where do you want to start? yeah look I

I think if Dame were healthy going into next year

you could do what a lot of teams do and kind of talk yourself into like well if this works and you know tweak here and this guy's more comfortable we have a full training camp and all these different things it's the first thing i thought of was okay now i think it'll change the conversation considering what we're talking about, how much he is owed. And if, I mean, I know Bucs fans can't stand this stuff, but I think this ramps up the speculation and probably the most speculated topic in the NBA in the last two years.
I would say there's more gossip about Giannis ever getting to that point, if you would ever want to, because look, even with Dame, this't close like this series is this series is alarming I think for Milwaukee because I think a lot of Bucs people are hey you know it's not like we're going up against the one seed here like let's see what happens have the best player in the entire series and this thing really isn't close other than Gary Trent going crazy in game three yeah I felt I mean this was my favorite bet of the entire entire first round was Indiana to win game one and Indiana to win the series. I think Indiana's underrated.
I thought Milwaukee was overrated. I think Milwaukee loses the series regardless of what happens with Dame, which is why it was such a bummer because when it happens in the series, when Milwaukee still seemed like they had a puncher's chance to hang around, they're favored tonight, right? They're down 2-1 in the series.
They're favored minus four tonight. You never know.
He could get hot. They have Giannis, who's the best guy in the series, but I just continue to think Indiana's really good.
I can't think Cleveland is fired up to see them in round two. And if you're telling me, could I have Indiana in round two or could I have New York in round two as an opponent? I'm taking the Knicks a hundred times out of a hundred in that, aren't you? Wouldn't you rather play the Knicks than Indiana? Yeah.
I still think the Brunson, especially with today, the reminder of like, I think that high level stuff, as far as the scoring, it's still better than anything the Pacers can offer. But last year, the Pacers got to the Eastern Conference Finals

because of their offense and because other teams were injured.

So that's part of it.

And despite them being competitive in the Eastern Conference Finals

against Boston last year in some of those games,

those are really good games.

And I think all of this stuff, the truth is told

in those last two, three minutes of these tight playoff games.

We see it time and time again where you go,

okay, well, this is really where we separate the men from the boys, but their defense was a mess. And so I think going into the series, one of the things that was undersold was, you know, after the all-star break, there's a Pacers team that went 20 and nine.
They were eighth in the NBA on defense. Yeah.
You know, Milwaukee who couldn't quite figure it out the entire time had a nice record after the all-star break, but they were 16th on defense. And, you know, I look at tonight's game, and at one point, Milwaukee's shooting 43% from the floor.
They're 13-30 on threes, 43%. They're plus two in free throw makes.
Rebounds about even. They were four less than the Pacers team.
They only had seven turnovers, and they were down 22 points. Yeah.
So you run through that and you go, oh, they're probably in it or they're at least winning. And they were down 22.
So I think this Pacers team, I'm with you. This team, I'm not going to pick them against Cleveland, but they changed.
It felt like they changed. They morphed into something far more serious and they play like 11 guys, which I'm really curious to see what Carlisle is going to do.
Do you think he thought so little of the Bucs that he was like, I don't care if I play 10 guys in the first quarter of a playoff game because he's done that. Yeah, I think they're super confident in this series.
The Bucs just aren't good enough defensively. By the time we started taping this, the Pacers had like 34 assists in this game.
When you're in the high 20s and up in assists, that tells me two things. One is your team likes to move the ball.
And two, you're probably playing a team that can't kind of recover and rotate in time. So it confirmed everything I thought having in this series.
I just didn't think the Bucs were just good enough as a team defense.

I think it's a weird team.

Like they really need these weird Porter,

these six-minute stretches where Porter just gives up minutes and offense.

Because other than that,

what else do they have other than the honest piece

and now Dame gone?

That's it.

So, you know, I think big picture,

if I'm Indiana,

this couldn't have turned out better.

We might be able to get rid of these guys in five, right? Cleveland's going to get rid of Miami in four. They'll just, that series will start a little early, but not too early.
They'll have five days to really circle each other and look at each other. And I think, I don't know, man.
I would probably pick Cleveland at seven at gunpoint, but I really want to look at this because I think Indiana has a real chance in this series.

I really do.

I think they can hang with them.

I think it's a nice matchup.

I think their guards against Cleveland's guards,

I think they can throw some punches

and make them work on defense.

I think they have three-point shooting

and they have a bench to throw at them

that can match Cleveland's bench,

which I think was a huge advantage for Cleveland this year.

Now Cleveland brings in their bench, but Indiana's bringing in good guys too. I think Neesmith putting him on Mitchell and having him chase him around, that's not nothing.
And I think they can at least make Cleveland sweat. I think Cleveland's really good.
We've been talking about them all year, but I also think Indiana is really good. I think they have an identity.
I think they know who they are. So do I think Cleveland's going to win? Yeah, probably.
But do I think they're psyched to see Indiana? I don't. Yeah, this is the part where I probably push back a little bit.
Go ahead. Push back a lot.
Really good. So, you know, unless the Pacers have turned into that, I'm not saying they can't get a couple games here, but there's a difference between like, do you feel like Cleveland is going to be threatened in those closing moments of multiple games? And I guess you could make the argument and say, well, last year against Boston, I don't know.
There's just certain games where I watch, and maybe it's the preconceived bias of going into a series, but there's games that I'll watch where I just go, I know the score is four points, but there's zero fear that this other team is going to win, four, six points or whatever. So I'm sure the Pacers are going to have a night where they shoot it really well.
But it didn't matter. Giannis could have gotten 50 a game.
I mean, the numbers we had seen from the individual matchups, whether it was Siakam and Giannis, they were pretty bad. Turner, they were even worse.
And it really doesn't matter. Because to your point, I mean, Trent has to go crazy in game three.
The Kevin Porter Jr. minutes are, like, he's talented, but I don't know that I would call him good.
You know, before tonight's game where he went off, you know, he had a huge second quarter. He went off in garbage time too.
But 23 minutes a game, he was 29% from the floor, 17% from three. Kuzma's plus minus was terrible i mean the bucks were so bad around yannis that yannis net rating going into the night's game in these three games was plus 0.9 he wasn't a full point positive that's how bad everybody else was around him so you know you could say the same as miami is is zero threat and you never really that threatened.
I just, I'm going to be surprised if it goes seven. I would be against Cleveland.
And that's more of about what I think Cleveland is capable of building towards this moment. If you look in last 25 regular season, Cleveland was seventh net rating and Indiana was ninth.
The Indiana stats, basically for the last two thirds of the season season, they were a top-eight team pretty consistently. And that was why I just couldn't believe the Indianapolis-Milwaukee stuff.
I thought they were clearly a better team. And even if you spotted, like you said, if you spotted Giannis 38-17 every game, I still think Indiana wins the series.
Let's go big picture. Oh, go ahead.
I just think there's at least like Jokic is the factor of game four. That's the part of the Milwaukee conversation leading into it.
It's like, what if that guy goes nuts? And I think that's what happened in game four for Denver because there was a lot from the guys around him that I didn't like. I can't wait to talk about that game.
It was just spectacular again. But there's just not enough.
And the fall off is so bad. I mean, even Bobby Portis, you're like, hey, he could have a game.
Yeah, maybe went for 28 in one game and he goes for four in the next. And that's Bobby Portis.
Right. So Milwaukee wins the 21 title.
They lose to Boston in seven the next year in round two.

They lose to Miami in round one,

one of your favorite round one series ever,

the Jimmy Butler series.

They lose to Indiana last year in round one,

have some injuries.

They lose to round one this year.

They've had three coaches.

They have that Dame trade that turns out

part disaster to begin with,

and then he gets hurt, makes it kind of a full disaster. If you're looking back at the last two years, the assets they gave up.
They're in real trouble with draft picks, which I think they even could have started talking about on the broadcast. They don't have their pick this year.
You want that? No, I mean, it's so much bleaker than just, oh man, our second best guy is probably out next season and we don't have a bunch of assets coming in. They have a swap with New Orleans in 26.
That's New Orleans call, right? So start there. Their 27 pick goes to New Orleans.
Their 28 and 30 picks are swaps with Portland. That's Portland's call.
And I think one of them then becomes the 28 pick then becomes a second swap with Washington. So they get the third worst pick that year.
And then their 29 first goes to Portland. So they don't have their pick the next five years.
So when you think about like, oh, they're going to trade Giannis, blow it up and rebuild. They can't rebuild because then I'm their picks.
This is an even worse situation than Brooklyn. So whatever they do, they almost have to like stay competitive in whatever trade they get back.
And I was looking at the teams that were the possibilities. I hate doing this, but why not? And it's Houston, I think has to be a consideration because Houston could make a four for one with picks, get Giannis, keep a couple guys and be really good.
Brooklyn has been the rumored one, but I don't know if Brooklyn can give them enough picks back that they could still stay competitive. OKC has to be mentioned.
There's a Knicks trade with Towns and pick Ananobi or Bridges for Giannis, like something like that, that I don't think is realistic. And then Cerruti's Orlando Magic.
I think those would be the five teams, right? And they're not giving up Paolo for Giannis, I don't think. But could you do Franz and some other black and a bunch of picks? And, you know, maybe, I don't know.
But, uh, if you hear all those teams that I just listed off, what was the one that jumped out to you? If Houston gets bounced in the first round, you know, I pushed back on you when you started bringing up the Durant stuff after game one, just cause it's just you and I doing our back and forth, but I don't know that you were wrong. You know, there was another piece I read this morning that was basically hit on the exact same thing.
Like they had to get game three without Jimmy Butler and the offense continues to be terrible. Um, even with Jalen Green's huge night in, in game two, the problem is, is he's your number one option offensively.
And you don't quite know like your number one option, like even if it's not super efficient, you're still supposed to get 25 because you're

just going to get so many opportunities. Your user rate

is going to be so high.

It felt like Van Vliet.

They've done a really good job. You forgot Shingun

was a little Tobias Heresy in that

game three. It was like, hey, it's Shingun.

I didn't realize you

were still here. I thought you left.

I do think he's done a good job in seeing

how he's being played where he's reminding him he can stretch. I wouldn't say stretch the floor, but stretch the paint maybe is the nice way of putting it where it's like you have the touch to be able to kind of pull up if Draymond's going to play you in the restricted area.
I think there have been times I've actually been impressed looking at Chingun, kind of reading how they defend him. Anyway, I know that's really that important, but as good of a job as they've done, as much as we all like the roster, we talk about it all year long and how exciting it is.
They have too many guys. Like Reed Shepard not playing at all for a team that needs offense speaks to like, do you really know what you have with Jabari? What's the contract situation there? The Jalen Green thing they had to get creative with.
Shingun is probably a guy just based on the size part of it. Tari, is he better than Jabari? Would you rather have him? Would you rather have a man than any of these guys? I mean, Cam Whitmore doesn't even play.
So who would you keep? If you're trying to get Giannis and you're obviously keeping Thompson, I think that's the one guy where we're like, we're never trading him. Sorry.
Can we get Giannis? Can we get Thompson? Pretty much everybody else is a conversation, I think. So why don't you rank, would you rather get rid of, I understand you're saying no to Amen, even though I think the limitations in his offensive game, what we argued about this months ago, I'm not taking a victory lap.
No, I'm not talking about trading. If it's like he has to be in the trade or we're not trading Giannis, that's a different conversation.
But I'm trying to do this while keeping Thompson. Thompson's one.
I think I'd still rather hold out hope for Jabari because of his shooting. I still like Jabari.
Yeah. I feel like there's so much more there, the way he's being used on that team versus what I think might be lurking in there.
They're basically like, go stand in the corner. Right? Play some defense, go stand in the corner, and that's all we're really looking for from you.
I actually think in this Golden State series, I wouldn't mind if they ran some stuff through him. Anyway.
Do you have Tari ahead of Jalen Green? Oh, yeah. I do too.
I don't think that's a crazy opinion. I would go further.
I think Tari should play 40 minutes a game. I wouldn't take him out.
I'd like to see him unleashed for, yeah, 30. Yeah, just fucking let him go.
So, and, you know, who knows? Tari's like one of those classic players a couple years from now. You're like, never how much we liked him? Yeah, maybe he's like a guy who looks awesome in 20 minutes, but if it's 40, maybe not as good.
How dumb do you want to get? Would you rather keep Reed Shepard or Jalen Green?

Oh, man.

Has Reed done anything?

Has there been one moment this year where you're like, there it is.

Yeah, the Phoenix.

Was it the Phoenix game?

I just feel like Jalen has more value than maybe is worth if you're trying to win a title.

I would say the seesaw, you could probably get more for him than you're going to get from him keeping him. But who knows? OKC game, he went off.
25, he was 10 of 17. Is there an Orlando, is there a Franz, Anthony Black, and just a million picks scenario? They're like, hey, we don't want to be able to shoot, but we want to do it differently.
We want a different way for you to pack it in. Paolo, because just as an official statement from me, I will not hear any Paolo negativity from anyone.
I know I don't have to say it to you, but if you want to talk about some of these efficiency... My favorite team's been going against him for four games.
That dude has answered the call. He is a full-fledged playoff guy and really gives a shit and has been playing his absolute ass off, and I'm terrified of him.
If Tatum were 31, would you trade him for Paolo?

How old would Tatum have to be?

34.

That's pretty good.

Yeah, it is a good one.

Tatum four years from now for Paolo.

I'd definitely have to have a meeting.

He was like, hey, we're not going to be off on this.

I know I said you guys could go home on Friday.

Guys, I would need to stick around. We have a time machine trade to discuss.
Uh, let's keep doing this. Cause I don't even know that.
If a guy just looking at the, the contract stuff here for Lillard, like I do think that this is, you know, granted they're down three, one, whatever, but I mean, well, this is, we're going to find out tomorrow that he's probably out for the year, barring a miracle. I think it would have to be a miracle for it to be the injury we think it is.
He's owed about $113 million the next two years. Next year, year after, 54 and 58, something like that.
Yeah. So at 35 and 36.
So I think the feeling around the Giannis conversation has always been a little Garnett-ish where you had heard for years KGs like maybe, maybe, maybe. And then I remember even talking to Chauncey Billups about it, which he shared the story.
So I don't know if it was him off the air or on the air or whatever, just him saying like dudes were telling Garnett, like you need to get out of there and go somewhere else because Glenn Taylor and the whole deal, like it's not going to work for you. you you tried you've been loyal the entire time but like it's time to bounce and you know unlike garnett he has the title he won a title milwaukee which is a different level of freedom but i i still think it's it's kind of nice right it's kind of nice that garnett and maybe yannis if he shares those sensibilities to think yeah i don't really want to be the guy that does any of these things but i i couldn't help but think it when dame went down because it's like all right so now you have 54 million in the guy that's supposed to be the answer to raising the ceiling who if this injury is as significant as we think it might be i wonder if that changes the summer and if does, then does it turn to a bidding war?

Does Giannis get involved and say, hey, I'm only going here? So then the price changes. What happens if San Antonio gets involved? What if they go fuck it? And say, dude, what would it look like if Wimby and Giannis were in the same team? But I wonder because of the pick stuff that you just ran through, which is serious.
if they go, well, we'd rather run this with Jalen Green and Jabari.

Right. but I wonder because of the pick stuff that you just ran through, which is serious.
If they go,

well,

we'd rather run this with,

with Jalen green and Jabari and a couple of four for one and be decent.

Yeah.

Cause we just saw Atlanta in that situation where they didn't have their

pick.

So they actually had to keep playing hard and ended up,

you know,

making the plan where I think if they had their pick,

they probably once Jalen Johnson got out, they would have been done. Can I give you one more scenario? And I spent a solid 11 minutes deep diving this on Google.
Love it. So Brooklyn has two versions of cap space.
They have the cap space for a max guy, but they can also renounce some restricted free agents and really blow out their cap space. And if you look at what they have, they basically have $54 million worth of guys that are actually hardcore on the books, plus a bunch of restricted guys.
And I was thinking, is there a scenario where Milwaukee says to Brooklyn, we'll trade you Giannis, but you have to also take Dame's contract in the deal and he'll be ready in a year. And that's part of the trade.
You have to take them both. And we'll just figure this out with the machinations of it.
And Milwaukee's, basically they just, they clean their cap. Because Milwaukee right now has Kuzma at 22 and 20.
Congratulations, by the way, on that. Two more years of him.
Portis for 13 next year. Connaughton for 10.
Porter and AJ Green are five combined, and that's it. So if for some way they could put Giannis and Dame in the same trade to Brooklyn, that's the only team that would work, and take some contracts back but not a ton and basically just have a full reboot.
And I don't even know how realistic that is, but I had to mention it because I spent some time Googling it. It's a little unorthodox.
Yeah, so the cap would be like 156 next year. Yeah, it's in the mid-150s.
Would they be able to do that? So it's kind of doable. They'd have to put a couple contracts back, but it is doable.
They'd have to renounce everybody. They'd have to do what we've seen teams do in the past, where they just cut their books, except for the guys on contracts.
To me, Houston makes the most sense. Maybe he's a deal breaker.
To me, Houston makes the most sense. Because they have too many guys, as you mentioned.
They also have a shitload of picks,

including a couple of really nice Phoenix picks.

So, would you say the Milwaukee situation is now bleaker than Phoenix?

No, because they still have the best player, despite how much I seem to like Booker more than everybody else, you're still talking about Giannis probably being the second best player in the world. Yeah, if you were a GM, I'd be like, we should call Russillo.
He loves Booker. I bet he'd overpay for him.
He's a huge Booker guy. He's having drinks with Russillo at the hotel bar.
He just fucking loves loves Booker I bet we can get one more swap in the deal he won't be able to handle it he's just going right in Adam I don't understand the Giannis Brooklyn thing even though I've heard it why would he go there by himself it's basically so the analogy would be 50 years ago literally 50 years ago kareem go in la for a bunch of stuff and like play here a year and then we'll figure out who's on your team i think would be the idea but then you lose another janice here and he's had six seven straight years of 30 12 and six so um green was what 27 28 when he went yeah well he was he was going to be a free agent in the after the 76 season they traded him a year early in 75 so he'd been in college four years he'd been on the bucks for like six so he's probably right around the same janice age so janice has got a couple years on him he'll'll be 31 in December though, so it's not like some massive tap. I don't know.
It sucks. I mean, as if Milwaukee fans weren't bummed out enough, they can spend the first 20 minutes on this kind of deal.
Hey, listen, they won a title. Could be worse.
Got a title out of Giannis. You had a great player who you drafted.
Was he outside the lottery or right at the tail

end of the lottery? I can't remember. He had 15.

You hit the jackpot with this amazing

pick. You had a lot

of good games. And now, unfortunately,

this is how the NBA works.

I was thinking...

Look, I'm game for

talk me into why it's going to get better.

As soon

as Dane went down, it's the first thing I thought of

was, okay, this may

change the summer.

I mean,

Thank you. Talk me into why it's going to get better.
As soon as Dane went down, it's the first thing I thought of was, okay, this may change the summer. I mean, I don't know, but you have to ask.
We're going to take a break for the podcast. Keep going on YouTube and talk about our two favorite guys.
This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Spring is here.
My favorite time of the year. That means the NBA playoffs are here too.
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I'm excited for the potential of an LA versus LA playoff series. It's never happened.
Clippers, Lakers, never in my lifetime. Is OKC for real? Is Cleveland for real? Is SGA going to prove that he is the best scoring guard in the postseason, basically, since Michael Jordan? Since Kobe Bryant? Is he on that level? We're all going to find out.
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All right, Russillo, you want to go Curry or you want to go Jokic? Where do you want to go? I'll let you choose your own adventure for this part of the podcast.

I was thinking about it the other day.

Who are your five favorite athletes in your lifetime?

Non-Boston?

No, just give me, I don't know if I'll get to five, but give me the five in order.

Bird's one. Bird's two.
I've had so many. We've had some good ones in Boston.
Ortiz has to be in there. Bobby Orr has to be in there, even though I barely remember his prime.
Brady. I really love Gronk.
Gronk was everything I wanted from just somebody passing through my life for 10 years as a football player. He was great.
But non-Boston, Curry and Jokic are way up there for me with Jordan and Bernard King. I really loved Walter Payton for some reason as a kid.
I think that's normal as a kid. Yeah.
Well, it's not like he was on TV all the time, but I just loved him. I loved his football cards.
I loved the clips. I was just always like wanting him to win.
And then of course he beat the Pats. And he was awesome.
He had a cool nickname. Yeah.
Mine's Barkley. There'll never be anybody.
Yeah, you're Barkley's one. There'll never be anybody that touches Barkley.
Chris Mullins, number two, because of the St. John stuff.
And again, this is being young and being impressionable. I would say that 86 Sox season, especially being like a little league pitcher and seeing Clemens, especially that first half, and being that into it, being a total newt, just a nerd of a kid, like keeping score of games and stuff and just riding up.
I've renounced Clemens. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, that's fine.
But Clemens, Clemens is probably the last childhood thing, unless I wanted to go Walter Berry, but that's probably. So mine was Fred Lynn for child.
Fred Lynn was my favorite Red Sox player growing up. Okay.
He was. Yeah.
Because for the Red Sox, like I did love Mo Vaughn, but at that point I was starting to like phase out of it, start talking to girls and like, all all right maybe i'm not going to worship another dude this much um but what i'm saying is i think steph is it's top five for me it really is um he's more so than any celtic yeah um you know i don't know that there's anybody i mean maybe it's brady again i kind of of cared more about Brady than I cared about the Patriots towards the end of it. The point is, is let's start with Curry because I was thinking about this today going, do I like, like just knowing that we can still have a Curry night.
Oh, yeah. For those that hate it, fine.
I mean, it just sucks because you're missing out on a guy. It's like hating blowjobs.
I mean, how do you hate Steph Curry? It's ridiculous it's ridiculous i just hate i just can't believe it like this age we're still getting curry that we're still getting curry nights where for a half it's like he's gonna he's gonna do because this i was really worried about saturday night's game being like is this going to be this atrocious regular season pre-jimmy butler version of the Warriors where it's like they just don't have any kind of chance whatsoever. Just a lot of Kaminga isos.
Yeah. Curry getting mauled off the ball.
Start with your talking points on the Warriors. Well, Curry's 37.
He's two years older than Michael Jordan was in the 1998 last dance season in the finals, right? When Jordan was like, whoa, he's so old. He's still doing it.
He's 35. And LeBron's blown out the age bear in a lot of ways.
But LeBron is also this incredible physical specimen. And Curry's this guy that comes into the league.
And for the first four years, he's having ankle problems. He's in that Milwaukee trade.
They give Milwaukee the choice between Monta Ellis or Curry. That's where his stock was.
And then he has this incredible 10-year run. And it started to feel like in October, November, it started to feel like we're at the tail end of it.
It really did. His team wasn't good enough.
The league around him was getting better and younger and just more athletic and faster. And it just seemed like 22 was going to be his swan song.
And then you watch him really since this Butler trade, but games like last night. And I had just come back from that Jokic game, which I can't wait to talk about.
And there was a weird similarity with the two performances where these guys are at such a high level now. Teams are throwing the most the most complicated defenses at them, weird wrinkles, play to play double teams.
They're banging them. They're doing everything possible to throw them off.
And they just have such command of the offense now and what they want to do and when to pick their spots and when the sense of like, ah, the game's kind of slipping, right? I got to take over the game right here for like three minutes, right? Jokic has the exact same thing. And even though those guys are completely different players, watching how they orchestrate the game and insert themselves in the right spots, I just think, I thought he was so good last night.
That third quarter he had last night was unbelievable. And Jokic's third quarter was even better.
Jokic had 16 points and eight rebounds in the third quarter yesterday

against the Clippers.

It just fucking annihilated them.

But for Curry to do that

against that Houston team

with the length they have with those wings,

the guys they can throw at them,

all the ways they were guarding him,

and the fact that they didn't have Jimmy.

And then the other thing is

Gary Payton won the game for them

down the stretch.

And you think like their 22 lineup

Thank you. And the fact that they didn't have Jimmy.
And then the other thing is Gary Payton won the game for them down the stretch. And you think like their 22 lineup.
Now Wiggins is in there. Moody's in the Wiggins spot, I guess.
But that was basically their 22 lineup. Payton, Wiggins, Draymond, Curry.
Who am I forgetting? Clay. Clay.
And Buddy Heald in the Clay spot. So you had the facsimile clay, you had the facsimile Wiggins, but basically that, they were super small down this.
Did you think they were going to be able to get away going that small? That was like small, small. Yeah, I think I was always worried about it, but then you watch Houston's offense go through these stretches and you're like, even if Golden State's getting stuck or Curry's missing some some of these desperation shots because i thought he had to get more desperate in some of the shots he was making in game two or excuse me game one uh when they won game one then game three so it felt like there was a couple more like are you kidding me moments but his control of this game and leading to those gary payton cuts where you just start to see i mean we even saw it somewhat in game three of Detroit where Cade started realizing like two are staying with me off of everything then Dern has to be ready to catch and I think they hit Dern like three times in a row and then eventually you know they're going to adjust and go okay we've got to pay more attention to the roll guy here because he kind of figured it out with with Houston and their defense to see a team that's this good defensively with this many options I know Brooks fouled out of it, but they were, it's kind of that mentality of like getting tired and making those mistakes.
And it's like, oh my God, I got to run to Curry. And Gary Payton just eating for free every time off of all of it.
If Curry felt like he didn't have a good shot. I think the April 6th game, even though it felt like this warning to who Golden State was going to be facing defensively and the men thompson headlines and all that stuff and i guess inside the building a houston staffer saying belt to ass belt to ass like the joy that you get in taking out golden state in their building it may have been a blessing in disguise for golden state and curry because i felt like his shot aggressiveness not from where he would be taking it it.
Because Durant's talked about this, and I remember when he explained it it was really great. He was like, look, I noticed that this is the way they were handling something off of any kind of ball screen, so I knew I had to be getting into my shot off of the catch because he couldn't close.
Because if I waited, I gave him time to recover. I felt like in this series you can tell that that that regular season game on April 6th, maybe impacts Steph's decision-making of like getting into his shots more instead of kind of waiting to read stuff.
And then once they were just trying to defend him with everybody at the end, as long as you can catch the ball behind all that stuff, it's going to be really easy for you. And that's where Gary Payton was, was huge because you know, Pajemski's up and down coming is all over the place.
Draymond doesn't want to shoot. You don't really know what to expect out of any of the bigs.
I just don't know that that team's supposed to be a really good defensive team. The good part is Houston can't score.
They were super small. And I don't know.
Pajemski, I think, would throw into that 22 version. I think they like him better than Buddy at this point.
Right, but Buddy was the clay last night, I guess. They were using him for the spacing, and he actually made some threes.
Pajemski normally would be the guy in that spot. And they keep trying Kaminga now because they don't have a choice, and it's just, you know, I think the fruit's been out of the fridge for too long with him, unfortunately.
I don't know if there's a lot there, but they had to win that game last night.

I think Houston had to win that

game last night. It was weird.

It was the rare game three must win.

I agree. I felt like

because

now I think Gold State probably

has a series. It's so hard for Houston to score.

I just hate their plays. I hate

their offense.

It's one of those teams when they're up 10, 12, they look really good like they did in game two. But for normal games with real flow and they need to, and I just don't trust anything they're doing offensively.
If Jimmy is limited, Houston still can win this series. Right, if he's

fucked up for another two weeks.

Yeah.

Well, they have three days until game four.

You know?

I asked you when we did

the part that's coming up with Van about

who

Golden State would rather play between

the Lakers and Minnesota, and you were pretty

passionate about Minnesota. I think the one thing, if Golden State would rather play between the Lakers and Minnesota, and you were pretty passionate about Minnesota.

I think the one thing, if Golden State went as small as they did last night

against Minnesota, I think they'd have a little more trouble.

I think they'd have more trouble from a rebounding standpoint

because Minnesota's a little more built to protect the boards, I think,

with smaller lineups than the Lakers when Dacic had one rebound tonight. Incredible Steph game.
All right, you want to do Clippers? Hey, can you double-check the schedule stuff? Because my internet now isn't working. Are you sure? I thought Denver had the extra day.
Oh, you're right. I fucked up.
Oh, shit. Golden State's tomorrow night.
Yeah, tomorrow. That'll be interesting, considering how hard they went in that one.
I think pivoting into the Denver part of it, once you look at the schedule, Denver gets the extra day, even though they're both playing on Saturday. That's all.
I went to Game 4 Denver Clips. I thought about this a lot, because I'm trying not to be hyperbolic clips and I thought about this a lot because I'm trying not to be hyperbolic and I've been to a lot of good basketball games over the last few years.
It was the best basketball game I've seen in person since game one of the 2018 finals, seven years. Um, I did not for the record, go to game four of the 2022 finals

when Steph had his magical game in Boston.

If I had been at that game,

that probably would have been the best one I've seen.

But game one in the 2018 finals,

that was the crazy LeBron game.

That was the J.R. Smith time.

The J.R. Smith, whatever happened at the end of the game

and the overtime and LeBron had...

That was the incredible LeBron game.

These teams played so hard for Sillo.

It was refereed like a hockey game,

like one of those hockey games where it's overtime and the refs don't want to

call a penalty on anybody.

And people are just fucking nailing each other.

And Jokic was out of his mind.

And Denver did the same thing JJ did today. He was basically like, my bench sucks.
I'm going to see if I can try to win this game without bringing my bench in. Jokic played the whole first quarter, the whole third quarter, the whole fourth quarter.
And I was sitting with Mike Tolan, who I shared my seats with, and the Clipper fans were bummed. And I was like, there was seven minutes left.
They're down like 15. I'm like, I think they might be able to make a run.
He never took any of these dudes out. And you could see Denver.
You could see Gordon start to wear down. You could see Murray start to wear down.
And even Jokic, he always seems like he's worn down. Clippers make the big run.
Crowd went crazy.

And the ending was like nothing I've ever seen.

So it was a spectacular basketball game.

What stood out to you?

That this Clippers team, where I really like their matchups

against what Denver has as far as options defensively,

they had 65 points through three quarters.

So, I mean, it's a 20-point game.

And you knew he was going to keep everybody in because of the extra day and they come all the way back to make it 99-99. It was 97-96.
That was their first lead. Kawhi missed two big shots in the last minute that I think probably win them the game if he makes either of them and he missed them.
I'm probably a little too biased about it just because I thought the Clippers are going to win this series. And now I don't know because I'd expect Denver at home.
I still think they're winning. I do too.
I felt better about them through the four games than I have Denver. And I think there are some similarities in the way Curry's like, okay, this is what they did to you last time.
And this is how they try to double you. And these are the things like I need to avoid.
And if I have a little bit more of a window have a quicker trigger here i thought yokich had a quicker trigger in this game the quickest of any of the games because i mean it just didn't take enough shots in game three we talked about it at the end of game three going or maybe we talked about it game two and then i talked about it in game three whatever it's the same stuff but just that to ask him oh yeah it was because the westbrook pass right like do you think there hesitation? And you were like, absolutely not, because that's the way he sees the game. And he knows in that moment it's the right play, even if you're like, am I sure I want to do this with Westbrook? I thought, look, he had a million turnovers in game two.
He's had some really bad moments for him, for the standard that we have for him defensively in the first half. He also, just aside as much as i love watching him play the fact that he thinks he gets to talk to the ref every fucking time every time and it's not as it's not as nasty as luca so luca is always going to get more shit but it is consistent it is as consistent where he has to check in with those dudes every single time which i also think speaks to something that's really funny about this idea that he'll just retire in two years because he likes horses and has an accent.
Anybody that's this competitive... No way.
I just don't know that he's in a hurry. It's so funny you said that.
I said that yesterday watching the game. First of all, he was a maniac.
Right. So when I see that, I'm like, so this guy's going to retire because he's just over this? The stuff he was doing, first of all, he coaches the team now.
Remember Bill Russell was the player coach in the late 60s? Jokic coaches the Nuggets now on the court. He tells people where to go.
There was this one moment at the end of a quarter when the Clippers were inbounding under the basket. And Jokic just goes to the bench and calls for DeAndre Jordan, brings him off the bench and puts him under the basket where he wants him to be for the inbound pass.
But he's telling everybody what to do at all times. He's basically making the meals.
He's cutting the food for everybody and he's feeding them. And it was, I was saying last night, it's the highest level I've seen somebody to go to in person since that LeBron 2018 game and the LeBron 2012 game in Boston.
Like the stuff that he's doing, how great he is in all these different ways. It's unbelievable.
And you always feel like he's going to make a play. Doesn't matter how you defend him.
If you're doubling him, he finds the right guy. He's doing everything.

Porter was making threes last night, but it was just awesome to watch.

And then you think it's going to be a blowout.

And then Kawhi is like, you know what?

Fuck it.

And just takes over the game for like six minutes.

And even did the thing where he takes the steal at midcourt from Murray,

where he does the thing where he's like, I'm going to take the ball.

Is that the ball? I'm just going to take. Jamal, I'm just going to take the ball from me now.
He just took it. It was just awesome.
It was such a high level game. And I can't tell you how physical it was.
I don't know how it translated on TV, but this was like fucking, this was like game seven hockey, like bodies flying, people ramming into each other, people like, you know, pulling each other backwards and over. And it was so fucking good.
It was like, these are two really, really, really high level teams. I think either of these teams could go a couple rounds.
Okay, versus OKC gets tough for Denver, no bench. Quippers, I think have a better chance, but I I will say the Clippers stumbled into one thing, Russo.
They went that small lineup, which they'd been hesitant to do with all the shooters because they always had Dunn out there, Derek Jones. But there was always one guy where Denver was like, go ahead, we're going to give you that one in the corner.
Well, that's been Dunn's role this whole time. Just keep firing away, we're good.
So finally, the Clippers said, we're going to put all our shooters out. We're going to play this weird zone and we're trying to fuck you up with it.
And it worked. And they fucked, they fucked Denver up for three, four minutes.
And then finally, Yoke had shifted to try to attack Bogdanovich. He shifted, you know, he, his fucking computer brain just figured it out.
He's like, and then he goes,-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do. That's exactly what happened.
And then he goes, he's like, right here, I will go to this right spot, and this will be how I fuck up the zone. And so eventually he figured it out.
But I think they're going to have to play that lineup is my point because they need offense. They can't have Dunn out there just brick and threes.
Yeah, when it was 96-95, that's a 30-9 run by L.A., and I'm with you. The zone felt like it was fucking him up on the catches a little bit.
It's easier to kind of help him. I think L.A.'s been really consistent that they don't want to send hard doubles.
They want to send the second defender when he's going into his move, unless Zubac has gotten to the point where he can keep him really far away on the catch.

But at 97 apiece, like the

move that he makes when it

looks like it's a little Dirk-ish in

that Dirk was always crazy. The three twirl?

The triple twirl?

Triple axel? And you're thinking

is this actually going to be good?

Is this even going to be a good look? Forget if it

goes in. Is this going to be a good look? And then he makes...
I don't know what the hell's going on with his free throws right now, but yeah, look, I mean, that's why he's the best player in the world. And he figured out a way to do it.
They played six guys, sort of Watson played 13 minutes. So they went all in on this one.
And then they had to play like the full 48 because they blow this 20 point lead. So, right.
He thought he could finish the game with like seven minutes left in the

fourth quarter and sit those guys.

There was one thing that happened.

Pickett comes in in the first quarter and he got stripped in the back

court and then he missed a shot and something else happened.

And you could just see his confidence.

It was like watching the ninth grader in the high school game.

Who's like,

Oh God, this guy's not ready. So they pulled them out.
They went to timeout and the Nuggets were like consoling him on the bench. Like, yo, yo, keep your head up.
It was like, that's how bad it was. So I think they realized then, all right, we can't play this guy.
DJ played in the first half. And then the other one who played was Watson, but they were basically five guys and somehow avoided foul trouble.
The other guy who was awesome was Gordon. He was possessed.
He was like going after Kawhi. And the big picture thing I saw from them yesterday, because I really felt like, I don't know if you agree after game three, that that team was ready to go either way.
And you could have told me they're going to roll over in game four and maybe get knocked out in five or six. And that was it.
And it was a fucked up season and they lost our coach and GM and the whole thing. And it's just, they didn't have it.
Or you could have told me, ah, they're actually going to fight because they won the championship two years ago and they have some real pride. They came out with like real pride.
They were like, we're not going down this way. We're throwing haymakers and we're ready to fight you guys to keep this, especially Jokic.
And that was the difference. And I didn't know they had it in them.
I got to be honest. Yeah, I don't think I thought it would be.
Well, look, I think anybody that watches Jokic and loves him as much as I would think anybody who's a ball knower and appreciates said ball, you know, it's kind of, you know, we'd already talked about it with the honest stuff is like, can that guy, can you, can he do enough to keep you in a couple of these games? Then who knows what happens the last couple of minutes. And I mean, it doesn't really feel like that game was that kind of game because they were up 20 in the whole thing.
And I'm totally with you. Chonchar coming out there.
And I'm like, what is going on? Pickett. I forgot about that.
Yeah. He had two minutes.
Like minutes like in every deandre jordan minute i'm like i mean it felt like they were playing three guys going who else in the playoffs would these guys be playing for and i know like there's some hope to pick it can be something but he was just swallowed up swallowed up and lost it didn't know what and now if you're on the nuggets you're like where are we getting any carryover minutes end of the third or start of the fourth? And it's like, we don't have it. We don't have it.
We have the extra day and everything will be fine. But, you know, this is, I think, why we yell so loud about Jokic being MVP.
Because I'm really surprised considering the options the Clippers have and the options the Denver Nuggets do not have, that this is a 2-2 series with Denver going home.

And we got to mention, I mean, there's some... I hate to do it.

It's the cliche, but the Clippers in the playoffs,

this is just them.

The series is 2-2.

They blow game one, which we did a pod after that game.

We were like, they should have won that game. That was stupid.
Then they lose this game at the buzzer, basically. This ties into, they moved here in 1979.
They've had nine first-round exits, five second-round exits, and one West Finals, and that's it. They've never won a series in less than five games.
They have a bunch of playoff terrible memories. And what was different yesterday, and Mike and I were sitting there, we were watching Ballmer at one point in the fourth quarter when they were coming back, and it was so loud.
I mean, it's like, it's a top four atmosphere. Like, that into it, I'm telling you, it's top four atmosphere in the league right now.
But the way how the fans are on top, it gets super loud. Like, you can really, it affects the game.
Can you give us another three just for- Boston definitely. MSG definitely.
And I think OKC gets really, really loud. Like to the point that your head hurts.
I would say those would be my three. Golden State used to, I haven't really felt the Chase Center.
I don't think the Chase Center probably has it in quite the same way. But we looked over at Balmer and it honestly looked like he was having an orgasm.

He was, it was just like,

he spent all this money building this building,

hoping the Clippers were going to be good.

He goes in on Kawhi,

that crazy extension you and I

never would have allowed him to do

if we were conciliaries, right?

We would have thrown our bodies in front of that.

Keeps Harden, we would have thrown our bodies

in front of that

and just had this amazing, amazing playoff game. There's celebrities everywhere.
Bob Iger sitting next to Michael Eisner. How about that? Those two guys sharing the tickets.
But everywhere, and it felt like a Laker game. There was real energy and it was great.
And it was an awesome, awesome basketball game. And we're like, wow, Ballmer did it, man.
This is it. This would have been like the dream to have a playoff game that was as good as this.
But Jokic is going to be the enduring memory for me for that game. He's just so incredible.
And we've talked about him all the time, but the level he went to in that game yesterday and how competitive he was, you're right. This guy's playing until he's 40.
You can't turn that off. Like he's a psychopath.
He was screaming at everybody. You seem horny tonight.
I love basketball this weekend. It was great.
It was until the Dame thing was a bummer, but I thought Curry, Jokic, that Lakers, Minnesotanesota game, which we talk about later in the podcast and what Ant was able to do against those guys. This is like, what an incredible run for the league right now.
Don't you think? This is one of the best 24-hour stretches the league's had in a while. Yeah, Clay Travis.
How about tweeting about the ratings? Get Bobby Barack on that one. Look, I realize group economics wasn't a great Jersey idea either.
You know, I just think that the ratings thing, no one's going to care because they're going to say we're in the tank for the NBA. But if you look at any neutral conversation about this the beginning was really bad it was also going up against the dodgers and yankees world series and another presidential election that had some coverage yeah and then the nfl and the ratings have been really good and they did some historical stuff the first couple weekends and like look man you want to tell me football's more popular i concede that

yeah point taken well another thing's happened they now we're we're developing some history with some of these guys right like tatum and edward some of the younger guys it's a little familiarity now cleveland maybe i'll get there people know who sga is casual fans i think know who he is.

The Luka Lakers name too.

That's the godsend.

I'll admit when I saw the... get there people know who sga is casual fans i think know who is so the luka lakers too i mean

but yeah that's the godsend i'll admit when i saw the first weekend playoff numbers and where some

of that stuff was i was like holy shit like i was i was surprised and i think there's a lot of

rating stuff that you can play some tricks with but i i just felt like the start of this season

it was turning into this massive victory lap for a bad and it wasn't even a quarter

Thank you. play some tricks with but I just felt like the start of this season it was turning into this massive victory lap for a bad and it wasn't even a quarter the less they can go against football the better the league is going to be and that's the thing they need to figure out how they can shift the schedule a couple weeks here and there just so they can avoid it and that's it yeah but football is going to do this Christmas thing because it's about family.
So that's good. That is true.
For the people who have kids. It's a big family league.
So who do you think wins Clippers Denver? Who would you have? I'm going to stay at Clippers because I still like their options. I am a little worried about the Harden game that may be looming because we haven't really gotten it.
He's been really steady. I thought we were getting it yesterday.
Mike and I were complaining because Mike is a Philly fan. So he's like, oh, here we go.
Philly Harden. He was like fucking pissed off.
And then Harden, I thought, really was a big part of that comeback and was attacking Christian Brown. And, you know, I like the decisions he made.
I thought he was competitive. You know what he's doing a really good job with, too, is he's, you know, sometimes simple doesn't get any praise because it just doesn't look all that great.

But there's just some little stuff they were doing where they were trying to get Jamal on Kawhi.

Because, like, Jamal just can't really defend anybody.

And I think Jamal's stat lines look like he'd tell you he's in this.

But I would say the eye test of the four games, you feel like there needs to be more. There needs to be more out there, right? They're throwing a lot of people at him though.
No doubt. I mean, Chris Dunn is that dude.
Chris Dunn's a nightmare. They're playing him even though he can't shoot because of all the other stuff he's doing quarter to quarter.
And I know I talk about this front office, but I just think that they understand it. They all rave about Balmer

and everybody knows Ty Lewis really good and Van Gunney gets all sorts of love as well. But they recognize Chris Dunn as somebody that said, you know what, if we have enough scoring around it, we can live with this non-offensive guy as a perimeter player, which I think most times when you're trying to figure out who are your five, and in this case, who your closing five so can we can we survive with somebody that is so defense first and I think zoo's improvement is a big part of that obviously quite being healthy and then norm kind of finding himself again a little bit later in the series but there's just some really simple stuff they were doing it was funny because at that point I was like oh Denver screwed they get it to Kawh Murray's in trouble.
Jokic does like a Luke Cornett double team where he's not doubling Kawhi. He's just like, hey, I'm going to be the next level of defender that you have to go past.
And Gordon ends up watching the whole thing. He loses Derek Jones Jr.
on the baseline. It's like unacceptable.
You can't lose him. They lose him on the dunk the whole time.
And I'm like, okay, these guys are exhausted or

they're just fried right now.

Gordon was dead at the end of that game. Somehow

he had the strength of the alley-oop. I thought it

was funny too when he and Harden got into it.

They came out of commercial. They were next to each other

minutes later just laughing

about the whole thing.

Oh, geez.

I had a

Chris Dunn point that you're like

19

2022 Marcus Smart

Thank you. geez.
Um, I had a Chris Dunn point that you'll like 19, uh, 2022 Marcus smart 2025, Chris Dunn parallels without the, I've without the, I've got this. Yeah.
It's like, like Marcus smart with the, I've got this pills that is taken. I have another one for you that you're going to love.
What was the Marcus Smart 3 that you went to live against the Lakers? I think I remember you just tweeting me like, if you're wondering, I was not a huge fan of that Marcus Smart 3.10. There were so many rough ones.
I think I blocked them all out. You know how Jerry West is the logo? Sure.
I think we should call Ben Simmons the half-court logo because he sees that thing and he comes to a screeching stop. It's the electric fence like a dog.
I thought of that yesterday. I was at the game.
I was like, I had to tell Rossello we got to start calling Simmons the half-court logo. I got to tell you, there's a few things I enjoy.
As I've aged, I'm like, what makes you happy? What's a good day for you? When's the last time you were peak happiness? Anticipating what Ben Simmons is going to do and how he's going to try to get rid of the ball in a way that looks like he's actually playing basketball when he crosses half court. It's so much fucking fun.
I love it. I'm addicted to it.
If they intentionally foul him once to put him on the line, I think that that'll be it. He'll be on the bench with the Norma Tech on his leg from that point on.
Be like, I don't know if I can go. Calf's kicking up again.
He's flying around a little bit defensively. He was getting feisty with Jokic.
Yeah, they were going at it. It was impressive.
Let me ask you this. What do you think the line

is on Fandle for the Clippers Nuggets series

right now? Games five

and seven are in Denver.

Well,

when the line came out,

I was surprised when we were going through it

before the series started, right? Where Denver

was minus 150, I think, for the series

and then it switched, right? Didn't it switch to the Clippers or the favorite before the series started, right? Where Denver was minus 150, I think, for the series. And then it switched, right?

Didn't it switch to the Clippers for the favorite before

the series even started?

So if it flipped... It was minus 118

for the Clippers starting

the series. And now it is 2-2

with 5 and 7 in Denver.

I'm going to say

it's somewhat similar in the Clippers' favor still.

The Clippers are minus 164 favorites. So Vegas seems to be aligned.
Vegas is like, how are these guys? How is this 2-2 is Vegas' thing? The Warriors are minus 360. Minnesota is minus 500, as we covered before.
And then in the East, all those series are... I've got to be honest with you, I think that's a heavy number on the Golden State one.
Yeah, because you could see Houston. The problem with Houston is they could just make some shots and all of a sudden it's 2-2, right? Especially if Jimmy doesn't play.
And Kerr is definitely looking at the bench going, ah, can I get 18 minutes out of Quentin Post? Can Kaminga give me like seven minutes right now? Like, I don't think he has a handle on the roster, would be my guess. He's got about five guys he could trust.
Fighting his ass off out there in the second half, too. I'm surprised he hasn't played more.

And I'm actually surprised Jackson Davis hasn't gotten a sniff.

When did they get him?

Isn't he on the team still?

Remember two years ago? They haven't played him at all.

No, I know.

He's completely out of the rotation.

A couple more quick things for you.

Orlando Celtics. Do you think Orlando could be genuinely good next year? Yeah.
I thought they were going to be pretty good this year. If they had Suggs in this series, how many games would it go? They have figured out Boston as much as they can.
I mean, much as you can figure out boston while also still losing them and never feeling that they're actually a threat to win series they won game three because boston shot three of 17 but the numbers are the numbers and it's very clear they do the best job of limiting them to the three-point line and you know i i think stan made a really good point was it today i think it was today yeah because out of a timeout they ran like a really good screen where derrick white came out of the top and caught it he was like you know what was nice about that and i'm paraphrasing but he was like it was a play they like ran a play because they are so determined to beat you by hunting matchups and yeah we've been over this. When it doesn't look good, you're like, man, you guys are kind of predictable.
And you do the same thing. And then it's kind of dribble, dribble, dribble.
And it's all the shit we talked about last. And then, again, they've won an NBA championship.
You look at their offensive numbers. They're all really, really good.
So what can you do here by critiquing something that seems to work at a really high level? But to do it against Orlando, where all the guys are huge, I wouldn't say Powell is necessarily a good defender. You're trying to hunt him.
Franz is really good. Anthony Black is really good.
You can probably attack Cole Anthony a lot of different places. But it's a good defensive team.
So are they getting Boston to be like, sure, cool, switch, do whatever you want. But you're not going to beat us up the way other teams just can't do anything with you because we have a lot of size and we have kind of a defensive first mentality and they've limited it with a three-point line.
So if they had Suggs, I think they'd get two games against Boston. Yeah, I agree.
Well, there's also, there's something they did in the last game that my dad was all fired up about, Orlando, in the game they won. They were crashing the boards, right? They ended up with, I'm looking it up, 15 offensive rebounds in game three.
And they were sending three, four guys to the boards on every shot, sometimes four, because they weren't worried about the Celtics running off a rebound because the Celtics are so deliberate at this point. They were like, let's use that against them.
We don't have to worry about how the Lakers, they'll send LeBron almost like a wide receiver down the court for those long Luka passes. Orlando's like, we know you guys aren't going to do that.
You guys want to walk the ball up. So we're just going to crash the boards.
And I thought it was one of the reasons Boston lost the game. They never adjusted to it.
Boston wasn't playing with any pace. I also think, if you don't think Drew Holiday is massively important to the Celtics, you have to watch these last two games.
Because in these crunch times, when he's not out there, you really feel it. I trust him.
Other than Tatum, I trust him the most on anyone in the Celtics. And he's always in the right spots.
He's always going to get one big rebound. He's going to make one defensive play.
He'll hit a three in the corner. You just know he's going to do stuff.
And I just felt like they really missed him the last two games. But Orlando is a guy short.
I think Black, something's there with Black.

I like what I've seen from him.

I think you have him, you have Suggs,

you signed Ty Jerome, Palo another year.

I think Wendell Carter has shown that in a playoff series, he can play with some physicality

and some toughness that I think really matters

in some of these seven gamers.

So the pieces are there.

I could see us going,

uh,

over locks,

uh,

in October with house,

right?

Like Orlando 49 and a half over.

I think this is the year,

blah,

blah,

blah.

Um,

it's a,

it's a good,

they're going to lose the series,

but I think it's a good outcome for them.

I'd argue the drives from Franz and Paolo were better than the drives from Tatum and Jalen. Hmm.
I don't know what the points per shot is on this stuff, but it just feels, or maybe I'm just more impressed with him. I mean, Franz had a drive today where he drives right.
On Zingas? He brings him to the paint from the side, and then he like, yeah, I think it was against Porzingis. He's had a couple drives on Porzingis where he made it look like Porzingis was like 6'2".

He's used Porzingis' height against him.

It's been impressive.

The field goal percentage for Paolo on the drives,

he's fifth in the NBA right now in the playoffs on drives.

But I don't think this is actually sort of the new stats here.

Maybe I'm getting a little carried away with it.

The no-drew part of it,

clearly that worked really well against

Paolo in game one.

You missed Tatum in the other game that they win.

You know the other problem is

when you go 8 for 32 in every playoff

game, you're probably not going to win a playoff series.

Like Orlando just can't shoot.

No, if KCP could

shoot and they had Suggs, I don't always love

the Wendell stuff. I know

he had some moments there in game three,

but

I think he should be a backup for a team that's good in the playoffs and not your starting five. Nick's Detroit, before we go, any takeaways? Incredible Towns game.
That's like one of the great Towns games of the Wild while and he even capped it off with a dumb foul at the end when he intentionally got the fifth foul out of nowhere and I was like, come on Towns you might go to OT, you're going to have five fouls but I thought he was awesome. Yeah, he's really responded since the end of game two.
Super aggressive coming out in game three and he had eight in the fourth quarter and Brunson had 15 in the fourth quarter. So if you're going to get those guys scoring at will, that's going to be a better option than whatever the one, two punches for Detroit.
I've been more impressed with Detroit, though, than I expect. Just being in these games and fighting through it and having moments where it looks like it's going to be over, especially after game one, where game one felt like a real lesson.
Like, hey, just so you understand, there's a level to this and fun little third quarter, but we're going to put a 21-0 stretch on you and close it out. And then for them to come back and respond and win game two at that place.
So I feel like Detroit's growing up quite a bit in this. I usually think it's one of the most overrated things ever of like, hey, get in there, get some playoff experience.
A lot of times I'm like, what? And then cost yourself a lottery pick for what? For getting your ass kicked by a higher seed and all this stuff. That's one of my stances you're stomping on right now.
I've heard you say it. You said it to me 20 years ago.
I know. We've been arguing about it for two decades.
You called into the show in 2003. I'm like, what are you? I'm like, if the Celts can just get in there, get some experience.
No, I think it's valuable. I think this would be huge for Brandon Hunter.
I think it is one of your tenants. I normally tell you you're wrong.
I think it absolutely applies to this case of Detroit. That's not what you want.
You don't want a moral victory because you feel like you're really, really close here. The problem is that you have to have Dennis match whatever the number two guy is for the Knicks.
And that's just not going to happen. Well, it gets worse than that because you're basically living and dying with Hardaway and Malik Beasley, which is fine in the regular season when you're trying to go like 46 and 36.
But you're actually trying to win a playoff game and match baskets. You know, you can feel the, Towns made a, like a couple of 29 footers in this game that swung the game.
I actually thought Detroit probably should have won this game. When you consider the timing of the Brunson injury, the fact that it felt like Detroit was pulling away, the crowd was crazy.
Um, I'm sure Detroit's got to be kicking themselves. And by the way, Kate had a wide open 14 footer at the end.
You know, everybody was talking about whether Hart fouled Hardaway or not in the corner. And by the way, when a game's that physical, you know, I'm not good with that deciding the game when you've let everything go the whole game.
Cade had, they got the shot they wanted. Cade was really good all game and got a really nice open 14-footer and he missed it.
Yeah, they didn't even run a switch or a screen to try to get into something else. They kind of went early, which I'm wondering if that's, I'm not criticizing it.
I just was surprised. I'm like, all right, they'll probably figure out some sort of thing, but maybe they were afraid of bringing the second guy in and now Cade's going up against two.
That's usually what will be happening is that we don't want to use a screen here, even though it's going up against OG, because even when they've screened OG off of him, I think just OG's recovery has been really, really good in some of the Cade attempts that I've looked at. I really like when they use OG to attack Cade, but you don't know what you're going to get with OG all the time offensively.
But that's something I think I've liked the times they've done it, and I didn't see a lot of that. Would you ever not have OG guarding Cade? I have so many issues with Tibbs in this series and especially the game today.
And that's the one I just can't. I would just have OG on Cade the entire game.
I'm pretty sure he is the primary assignment. Bridges was on him a lot today in that game.
There's some stuff Tibbs does. Like, I don't understand why Brunson brings the ball up every time.
Every other team takes that pressure off the guy when a team's pressuring. Just let Bridges bring the ball up.
Save those miles and those minutes on Brunson. They're just like, work your ass off bringing the ball up against Schroeder who's an absolute pest.
He's one of the three pests in the league.

I don't understand why he put in the miles on him.

They played a lineup in the second half with no Towns and no Brunson.

Tibbs.

It's like one of those guys has to be on the court at all times, period.

Like, what are you doing?

Asar would probably love that idea of Brunson not bringing it up

because he's just going to be the

number of times brunson has gotten sar with his stuff and today wasn't even bad i thought it was

hilarious the game two people were just you know again it's kind of like how much people are really

watching or how close they're watching it's like man this brunson flops a lot he's out there hunting

a lot of stuff like dude i'm telling you right now that's not even close to the worst that we've

seen from brunson now he's he's been on a seven this series my favorite series ever was six or

for you. He's out there hunting a lot of stuff.
Like, dude, I'm telling you right now, that's not even close to the worst that we've seen from Brunson. No.
No, he's been on a seven this series. My favorite series ever was Sixers fans having the audacity to complain about Brunson in the playoffs last year.
Oh, when they had a beat on their team? Right. So this is the deal.
Like, Sixers fans can't ever bitch about somebody else. Knicks fans can't because of Brunson.
Atlanta's been covered. Dame, we're going to be nice right now.
All Rockets fans going forward forward grandfathered in for 30 more years because i have some nemhart video i may submit to the league and be like are you gonna let this guy run through someone's spine one day yeah and then give him the end one like what the hell nemhart's not um hunting for fouls he's he's trying to cause permanent limb damage to anyone defending him can we do can we do the most boring segment you could do in a pod and praise somebody for 30s. He's trying to cause permanent limb damage to anyone defending him.
Can we do the most boring segment you could do in a pod and praise somebody for 30 seconds? I just have to just add this. Bickerstaff's challenge in the first quarter is the single worst challenge of any coach in the playoffs right now.
Why is it getting worse? I know. See, I think some coaches are a bit like state DAs where they go, I can't win this case.
I want to keep a clean record like I think there's some coaches out there going no I want at the end of the year be like he was 31 and 12 and challenges what a fucking brilliant coach it's like but Bickerstaff gets so caught up in the emotion of the game like I almost think he was like you know as much as I'm upset we're down in this series at least I get to motherfuck these officials for five minutes on the court and feel justified about that play in the corner that in the moment I'll admit I know the two-minute report said there was contact I didn't think it was like the worst thing I've ever seen that's a non-call which isn't going to make Detroit fans happy but uh anyway I know you had a point I want to get that Bickerstaff thing in there because I I couldn't but I was like dude you use your challenge right now on an out-of-bounds in the first quarter. I've been kind of blown away by Cade.
I know the turnovers are too high in these playoff games. What he's navigating against those Knicks perimeter guys, the burden that he has, but also there's real real leadership from him already.
And he's pretty young,

you know,

like there was that Ron Holland moment.

Ron Holland had to get mad because,

you know,

it's,

it's in the bargaining agreement.

He got mad at somebody and stood over somebody for a second.

And Cade came flying in and shoved him out. Like he just has a real wherewithal of what's happening.

Rambus flashbacks.

Well,

he's,

I just think he's, he acts like he's 31.

And how old is he?

Like he was in the draft three years ago.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe he's 23.

I don't know.

22.

Oh, I can.

He was in last year's draft.

He's 23 years old.

Yeah.

He's 23.

So.

No, no, no, no, no. Ron Holland.
Oh, I'm saying Kate Cunningham oh oh okay I'm sorry no Ron Holland's like 15 years old a man's Kate Cunningham is 23 years old and I just think that's the win is you're putting him in this atmosphere with the crowd he's got a taste taste of it. I have some ESPN notes.
Maybe don't go to a commercial when Jalen Brown is, when Jalen Brunson is leaning against the scorer's table, holding his ankle in complete agony and do the, we'll be back after this. And then you're gone for four minutes.
That's one. Number two, I don't think you need to show Jalen Rose 15 times after you fucking laid him off two years ago,

three minutes before he was about to do a get-up segment

and gets a call and says,

don't go and get up because you're about to be laid off.

Maybe don't show him over and over again during the game,

you motherfuckers.

Aggregate that.

I don't care.

Well,

allow me to zag.

Doesn't Jaylen want to be on TV?

Good zag.

Maybe there's truth in both sides.

Hey, there's Jaylen Rose.

We completely blindsided him two years ago after he did 15 years of great work for our company he seems happy just classic just can't get over that place i we avoided too it like when jaylen brunson goes down tries to stand up falls back down i was like okay there's one like i just assumed there's two big ones coming. They're going to potentially alter the course of history.
And then Ant goes down today. When LeBron rolls up on him, it's a football play.
The Solomon Hill reverse. It was a totally clean play by LeBron.
There's nothing dirty about that whatsoever. It's the playoffs.
The guy's diving on the ground. If he doesn't go for it, then it's Cam Newton in the Super Bowl, and people are going to hate on him there.
I don't think there's anything. You have a look in your face that you think it maybe was a little on the edge.
I don't. No, it was exactly the same play as the Solomon Hill play.
Right. Okay.
All right. Do you think it was the same play as the Marcus Mark Curry play? I never like when anyone dives at the ball when they're going to somebody's legs.
But in that one, that seemed pretty fluky. Ant was putting his foot back to plant right as LeBron was diving.
I didn't feel like there was any ill intent at all. None.
I didn't think so either. But when Ant's down, and by the way, we thought he went down in game one, and he left, and the way he was grabbing his calf.
So it's just crazy that we've had two from Ant where you're like, uh-oh. And then we had one from Brunson where he stood up and then fell back down.
He's like, no, but he's actually going to get 15 on you in the fourth quarter. Do we put a moratorium on the Willis-Reed references for like a round one playoff game and it's game four? Willis-Reed, like one of the greatest moments in the history of the league.
And by the way, his hip muscle was completely torn off his body and he got shot up with a horse tranquilizer just to drag his leg around for like two jump shots. I just feel like that should be kind of put in the, in the safe as we're not allowed to compare things to that.
I would do horse tranquilizers once, but that's it. But that's it.
I wouldn't want to get used to it. All right.
I think we hit everything because we have the rest of the pod with Van that you can hear right after this break on the podcast for the YouTube audience. We are going to say goodbye.
Rosillo, enjoy all the hoops this week. I'll see you now that you're the new Lakers, Diane Cannon.
I'll probably see you at the Laker game on Tuesday. There's a chance I could be there.
Yeah. Yeah.
All right. Ant in person.
Can't pass it up. Ant, LeBron, and Luka all in person.
Jackson. I've heard of all of those guys.
Jackson Hayes. Jackson Hayes.
Yeah. Like no one has a higher usage motherfucking refs than that guy.
He gets it in in those two and a half minute shifts. He's got to get it all done.
Good to see you, Rousseau. See you next week.
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All right, we are recording a little after 3.30 on Sunday afternoon.

We told Van Lathan to come join us and talk draft

between the two sets of games,

but the Lakers game was so awesome against Minnesota.

Minnesota goes up 3-1.

Now, we're just going to do this now out of sequence.

Rusilla, your guy, Anthony Edwards,

43 points, nine rebounds, six assists,

44 minutes, a key cut

in the last 15 seconds of the game

during a broken play,

and they end up beating the Lakers

three games to one.

There was a lot of high-end

offensive chess

going on there with Edwards.

I was really impressed.

They're doubling him.

They're not doubling him. They're doubling him again, and he was just kind of figuring it out.
I thought that was the best game I've seen him play. I loved it.
I think he's just turning into a star in a way. I think we thought we were seeing it last year.
So maybe we're just doing the same thing all over again just a year later. Just love to see him get to the free throw line after 26 field goal attempts in game three and zero free throw attempts which is

fucking impossible

but they found a way to do it

so look I think it was all about

the size part of it even though

the Lakers five guys they play

are big players it's not

like they're small where

you're absolutely right like I love I'm still

like adrenaline rush after this

game because of the chess part of it going

is JJ going to survive playing these

five guys his best five guys

Thank you. You're absolutely right.
Like, I love, I'm still like adrenaline rush after this game because of the chess part of it. Going, is JJ going to survive playing these five guys, his best five guys? Is he going to survive playing them the entire second half? And like, Luka allows LeBron to coast a bit.
LeBron was great tonight. Reeves had a great second half.
Rui hit every shot that he had to hit because people were helping off of him. But at the beginning of the fourth quarter and you're watching going, it looks like he can drive on these dudes.
I was upset Finch called the timeout to save it before the three minute mark. I'm like, why are you calling a timeout to even give these guys any kind of break? Because I think that's what JJ was hoping.
Will there be stoppages? Can I get some energy back in these dudes? And look, it comes down to a make or miss either way. And LeBron made some great defensive plays there, but Wait, don't step on all the points.
We got a lot of points here. No, no, no.
I know. I just, I love this game.
Can we go back to the five guys, though? The JJ rolling the dice? Yeah, whatever you want to do. I'm too excited, so take over.
No, JJ did the same thing the Nuggets did yesterday. They were like, our bench sucks.
And we're playing again. We have the extra day off.
Extra day. Can we win this game in the first 42 minutes and maybe stagger the minutes so that the last six minutes don't matter? And they go for the kill the same way the Nuggets did.
And yet the Timberwolves hung around, hung around, hung around, hung around. I thought LeBron looked exhausted and yet he made like three of the better defensive plays of the playoffs.
Van, when you watch, I know you're a Laker fan, you should mention. Yeah.
So you're watching this and they're just not, JJ's like, fuck it. No bench.
LeBron, just run in the corner during some offensive possessions. Maybe you can grab 20 seconds there.
Maybe there'll be a challenge. Are you like, why aren't you playing the bench? Or are you like, this is the right move? It felt like this was the right move.
To be honest with you, I never get mad at coaches when they tighten up rotations in the playoffs. Everything is so high leverage.
You go with the guys that got you there. You trust the guys that got you there.
That was a tight rotation. That's a super tight rotation.
A super a super tight rotation. Tighter than tight.
No rotation. There's no rotation.
No rotation at all. I never get on coaches when they do that, particularly JJ, who is really in an interesting situation as a coach.
He gets a team that has the bones of a decent team. Then he gets Luka, the expectations, ratchet through the roof.
Now he's in the playoffs against an opponent that everybody expects him to beat. And they are not beating them, and they are getting outplayed, outhustled, and to be honest with you, kind of outcoached as well.
So the fact that he decided that he was going to kind of go with the guys that he could trust the most didn't really surprise me. I am really,

really impressed with Anthony

Edwards though. Like ridiculously

impressed with his ability to figure

the game out on the fly and really

be like a dominating

figure for the Timberwolves to

rally behind. Yeah, you're watching this.

You're going, they can just stay within

like five to seven

with five minutes left. They

have the younger team and the better legs and they have Ant, who's going to be the least tired out of all these guys. I thought what LeBron did coming off Friday night, Rusilla, I think you and I saw it the same way.
That Friday night game was super physical, grueling and it almost seemed unfair. They had to play like 40 hours later.
It just seemed like a bad schedule spot for them. Yeah, not even.
I thought JJ was going to go the other way and be like, I got to play the bench guys more because my guys are going to be dead from Friday night. It was the opposite.
And LeBron, especially the first three quarters, I don't really understand what I'm seeing anymore at age 40 for him on defense. This is like, he looks like 2013 Miami Heat LeBron in some of these moments.
But they had those two guys humming in the first half and they're still, what was it, like a three-point game at halftime? I just don't think they have enough. And at the same time, I would not bet against them coming back from 3-1.
Are you in the, I think this is too tall of a task for Lakers zone or do you think there's a path for them well you know like after the first game you're you're thinking okay that was really ugly like seeing it happen you go oh my god like they're too big for them like this is actually a real problem and then you're like yeah but nazareed and jaden mcdaniel scored 48 points and nobody missed any shots it felt, for like a half an hour real time. And then you have the Luka game in game two, where you're like, all right, and now Jaden wasn't very good, so this makes a lot of sense.
I mean, Jaden wasn't really much tonight. Naz didn't make any shots, so it's not like they got the full compliment game.
Luka, it's just so hard to doubt him. But, you know, look, he had the stuff where he kept getting stuck in the trap.
And I don't know why he would keep doing it other than there was a lot of times it worked. Like it would work out of the trap and LeBron would end up with the ball.
Then he would make the perfect read and then swing it. And just Rui was so huge in that third quarter.
But I do think there's just more moves for Finch where JJ basically admitted tonight, like unless Luca is making insane shots or he and LeBron are taking turns, I just don't know that they can hang with this team because the same thing happened on Friday where when it mattered, it felt like Minnesota had a few more things they felt good about, even though the number one score to number two is a big drop off. And, you know, look, Randall's had a bit of a rebirth here, which is one of the biggest reasons why I think they were motivated to do that cat trade.
As bad as it looked for so much of the season, it was just, there's going to be so much pressure on Ant in the playoffs. The secondary option needs to be able to create some stuff on his own with the ball.
And I think that was, even though, you know, Randall's not exactly like everybody's going, Oh my God, they got Randall. I think that was part of the basketball approach to having him there.
And you're seeing it. My favorite Randall stretch I've seen been probably ever in his career from a two-way standpoint.
I'd given up. This would be a good, it'd be a good website or like where you just track where you like where it's like have you given up yet or you're still holding on i would have just checked the i've given up box on randall i'd love the way he played he also seems physically like just not afraid of luca or lebron and i think that's one of the problems for the lakers in this series is minnesota has kind of this same kind of size like just bodies to bang with them at least make it hard for them.
But were you ever out on Randall? Where'd you stand? I felt like he had kind of outlived his NBA usage, his usefulness at like a high level. Playoff level.
I didn't know that we, yeah, I didn't know that we would ever see him being a difference or a difference maker in a playoff series again. It just seemed like it was petering out.
And when you look at it, the trade looked like, it looks now like a trade that worked out for each team. You know, you see Kat and the Knicks have a big win and he's playing really well.
And Randall has really found a way to fit in with the Timberwolves in a way that I did not think that he would be able to. I thought that he was going to stop the ball.
I thought he was going to clog things for Ant. I thought he was going to be someone that Ant would get frustrated with.
And you did see that at times this year, but once they kind of figured it out, and once the pace of the game slowed down a little bit in the playoffs, you kind of see his usefulness. He really is.
He's an athletic guy who can guard a lot of different guys. He's decent in the night, so you can't leave him open.
He'll make the shot every now and again. So, and he's tough.
Like to Rosillo's point, they are a tough team and the Lakers are kind of soft. They're, they're a little Hollywood getting pushed around by these guys.
It's depressing to see. Yeah.
Wow. Good culture.
I never, I never thought, I never thought Randall would learn how to not be a ball stopper.

I'm still not convinced.

Are we sure?

We're still,

are we sure that this is a new chapter of Randall or is this just a phase?

No,

but I think what you're looking at here is,

I don't know.

Do they,

do they promise Jackson Hayes that he gets to start?

Is there some sort of bonus in his contract for playoff starts? Like Little League coach's son gets to play short for dinner. And I'm not arguing with it.
If you're a Lakers dude and you've got a pod or whatever, whoever's on TV or, you know, like, hey, they got to stick with Jackson Hayes longer. No, they don't.
Okay? I think JJ knows what he's doing on this one um but yet they keep rolling them out there to kind of start this whole thing so really what it comes down to is like Randall's not afraid to take it to LeBron that was one of the most glaring things in game one live yeah and I went man like Randall doesn't give a shit he's almost excited he's almost too excited because then he'll barrel into him and then LeBron will get a call. So Randall just feels really comfortable because Anne is being, any of the possessions that matter, Anne is doubled.
Okay. And sometimes Minnesota, like there's all sorts of things that I love that the Lakers did that I don't like.
Like I thought DiVincenzo was a mess tonight. Rudy, they felt bad that he didn't take any shots, I guess, in game three.
So they run the first fucking play for him. And guess what? He can't hang on to the basketball.
I would challenge anyone. There's no one that plays regular minutes that is worse with the basketball in his hands.
Like a jugs machine. If a jugs machine was hanging out with Rudy, the draft gurus would give that jugs machine a fifth round grade and be like, it's not accurate enough.
And you'd be like, that doesn't make sense. Usually jugs machines pretty accurate.
They didn't complete a pass all day. And so they still don't know what to do with the Rudy part of this.
The elbow in the back of the head, LeBron was just totally stupid in that moment. But damn, I think Randall just seized the space because you've got to still at least show to Nas.
You have to show to Na. You have to show on Conley even though he doesn't really want to shoot.
And then Jaden. And so I think when there's like two guys and one retreating off of I think Randall is just salivating at some of this stuff.
And that's why, yeah, I think he's still a ball stopper. But here I don't think there's as much of a penalty for it.
But he's just been, over the course of his career, he's just been so bad in the playoffs. He's been so bad in the playoffs where teams have been able to force him to his weak side, completely neutralize his scoring.
You just did not expect for him to contribute in any meaningful way when the stakes got to their highest, and of course he would do it now that he's skull-fucking the Lakers. Look, I mean, you must have had flashbacks on that foul against Luka, because that was, that could have been the game.
I mean, you held up, you played defense, there's four left on the shot clock, and you fouled him, and he was, to his credit, he was upset with himself, not the call, but then I'm thinking of you, Van, going, you must have turned to somebody and been like, this is why we got rid of that dude. Because the numbers have always been like, look at this.
Go to basketball reference. You're like, how do you not like this guy? And you're just like, look, there's just a lot of in-between stuff that you've never really liked.
One other thing, like Reeves had a bad first half, right? But he has a bad first half you don't notice. There's guys that can be bad and you don't really notice for like an hour when randall's bad you just see it you see it on his face his body language is bad you're just constantly aware it's like this black cloud just goes over his head you want to know why that's such a good point though it's because he doesn't stop being bad when it's bad he's like i got this you're like dude you don't.
You don't. He'll fuck up three times in a row and then dribble the ball out beyond the three-point line, call a defender out, and just, like, he's gonna get in his bag, and I'm like, you're watching, and you're like, Randall, you're still in your bag, huh? Get out your bag for a second.
But he'll do it anyway. But it's working.
Look, you know what? You know what I was thinking as I was watching this game? I was thinking in years past, this would have been exactly what the NBA wanted. They want in a series with LeBron where young dude beats old guy and becomes heir apparent to face of the league or whatever it is.
They want this. I'm wondering if they want it right now.
I don't think that they do. Like, you know, this is probably with the Lakers and the Luka thing and everything.

I think they probably want the deepest run for the Lakers that they could possibly get.

But I mean, really, all NBA fans should want the coronation of Anthony Edwards.

And they should want it for him to take it from LeBron James and the way that the Timberwolves are taking it from the Lakers right now.

Well, the bummer is I like watching both of these teams, and I feel the same about Nuggets Clippers. I just enjoy all four of those teams and we're going to lose two, and yet we're going to probably keep a couple teams I don't enjoy as much as we headed to round two.
The thing with Minnesota... I can't believe these are first round.
I mean, even if Golden State had Butler, the fact that these are these six teams going at it in the first round, we're spoiled. Well, I was watching today wondering, because Golden State, I don't want to jinx it, but I think winning that game, stealing that game last night without Butler was such a good sign for them.
And I'm sure they're watching a game like today. They have a couple of days off and they're in that.
All right, if we can somehow get by Houston, who would we rather play and i after that game i don't even know what i would tell them because yeah the lakers don't have a bench no it's definitely the lake you think because they know they know there's no big version of it because they could just go small ball against the whole time right maybe i'm too influenced by the last time i saw them play each other where the lakers wanted to be small and Golden State was like, awesome. Whatever happened in game three, I don't know that.
I feel like I've seen too many minutes where they're just getting beat on by bigger guys. They still may win the game, but I don't know if they're having a blast while they're doing it.
So I would think they would be afraid of what Minnesota may be capable of.

Yeah, the ceiling of Minnesota is higher,

but you watch those two guys going at the same time today.

I think Minnesota has a better team.

I wouldn't count the Lakers out in this series yet.

You figure they'll win game five.

Van, I looked already.

I looked into the future.

It's a 65 to 10 free throw advantage in game five.

That's the over-under. But then game six, who knows? You know that those Lakers have had some guys who have been in some big games over the years.
And then you have that fear of like, if we don't take care of this, now we got to go back to LA for a game seven. Minnesota, I think, has a better team, though.
I mean, I'm looking at it. I'm looking at the series, and I keep waiting for the Lakers to show that they have an edge over the Timberwolves, and that moment has not come.
Even in game two, where the Lakers get the win, it's one of those wins where you go, oh, we didn't figure very much out in that situation. It's a weird end game.
Yeah, like we didn't figure very much out. And it seems like when the Timberwolves need to make a play or when they need to batten down the hatches, that they have things that they can go to.
They have easier ways to get stops and easier ways to get buckets than the Lakers do. And the Lakers seem like they're operating on a real high degree of difficulty with everything that they're trying to do.
And it doesn't seem like over the long run they're going to be able to mount anything to tip the series back on their side. They have to double ant.
They have to hope whoever their smallest guy isn't getting bullied by Rando or Nazarene or whatever. There's a lot of things they're hoping don't happen.
The T-Wolves basically just seem like we just have to make sure Luka doesn't get easy looks. Seems to be a lot of their strategy.
But Rusillo, this stat's interesting. Lakers shot 19 for 47 from three today.
Usually if you're around 19, 20 made threes in the NBA the way it is now, that's a win, right? Like 19 out of 20 times. So if I'm JJ, I'm like, fuck, we played our five out thing.
We dumped Jackson Hayes finally. I tried to get away with no bench as much as possible.
We made all our threes. I got a great game from Rui.
I got a huge second half from Reeves and we still lost. Now what do I do? And I wouldn't know what to tell him.
More Gabe Vincent? No, I don't. I mean, Gabe Vincent flying around.
Sure, if you want. A little more Goodwin? With more? A sprinkling of Goodwin? Goodwin sprinkles? Yeah.
What exactly are Goodwin sprinkles? I think he's really competitive on defense, but he's not a very big player. And so I think he's, look, he kind of got what he needed.
He got the game from Reeves in the second half. He had Rui off of those traps.
Felt like he was doing everything right. They even got a couple threes, I think, from Finney Smith.
They were spacing it out really well. LeBron fucking living at the free throw line, but they were fouling him.
Iling him i mean divincenzo some of these fouls that this guy'll do it's like hey you're not gonna stop him like lebron was already rid of the basketball right and divincenzo follows through maybe i'm just annoyed because he argues it so much and then you go back to the replay like divincenzo is like a high school kid caught in the woods with a beer you know you're like the chances of this guy telling the truth right now is zero like it doesn't matter what i ask him he's just gonna say hey dude it wasn't me so um you know i i think there's always like these interesting three four minute stretches where maybe somebody could hit some shots or you get some energy i think the gamble that JJ had strictly was can my guys hold up enough physically if I do this to them because I don't feel like I'm necessarily bearing some other great options and I think in a way they still kind of survived it even if I felt like off the dribble you know like aunt dude he had a layup at 72 6363, where even for him, he went through four guys. And I thought, even my expectations of him are so high that he's going to find a way to stop, turn the corner, and get by.
He's going to beat two. He's going to split double teams.
He's going to get the angle. He's going to beat you to the spot.
He went through four dudes. So I thought it was actually going to be worse with how tired the Lakers guys were.

So maybe being tired shows up on the inbound pass that LeBron loses in that spot,

down three, which is kind of lost in just the melee of all the events

that happened to close out this game.

Ant never plays.

He always plays fearless, but he does sometimes play passive. And for whatever reason, he's not passive now.
Like, you've seen him before. The soft double comes out there, and he kind of doesn't know what to do with it.
You see games where he's too reliant on taking high degree of difficulty threes or high degree of difficulty long twos. You see see that none of that now.
And also he's playing mind games with LeBron James. He's getting into him physically.
Like these guys are rallying behind him. It's a big deal series for Ant right now.
For sure. That's my favorite thing.
International basketball. Yet another person really helped by their experiences abroad.

Yeah, but he was doing this like when he was going at Durant being like, I'm whatever the fucking you think you had was like, this is mine is over.

And what I appreciate is that he's qualified to do this because he's this special.

And so him and LeBron going at it.

And then, of course, he got called for the foul. But granted he was on defense but you could see that happening it was really fun and then they show the replay over and over again i think we all enjoy that stuff like that for me is is one of my favorite things about this and it's not even being disrespectful i don't think to lebron it's that ant i think collectively the the NBA fans would say, well, he can do it.

Right.

You know, when Jalen Green is doing shit to guys that won four rings last night, I'm like,

yeah, settle down.

Wait, you made that key point in the beginning, Russell, about how he did this last year too,

but something feels different.

And I think this is what it is.

When he made his playoff run last year and had those 10, 11 games where we were like, shit, those look like Michael Jordan stats. What's going on here? The other teams weren't treating him yet like he's being treated this year.
It was just happening in real time where you're going, man, this guy's kind of amazing. And then finally we get to the Dallas series.
And they're like, all right, we're fucking, this is over. We're now treating him like he's a guy.
This playoffs, he's been treated in the Lakers series like he is at that level. And I think that's to me is the difference is understanding I am now here.
I'm going to be treated this way. And the way that he feels like he's on the same level as Luka and 40-year-old LeBron, I feel like they're all peers.
We wouldn't have said that last year. I didn't feel like he was like Jokic's peer last year.
He was just having an awesome series. You know what I mean? This year, I feel like he's peers with those guys.
It ended kind of with a whimper, which kind of makes you forget about it a little bit. But I mean, at this point, if you're a Lakers fan or if you're a Lakers organization,

we're going to have to go to some desperate measures to get him out of here, to get him off of his game.

We're probably going to have to Shannon Sharpe him,

send somebody into the DMs, get him off of his game.

Never heard that word before. I'm scared.

Would history prove that that doesn't get off his game?

Well, maybe.

But it's our only shot now, okay?

We're going to – because he's not going to stop. So we're probably going to have to send somebody to him, get somebody, distract him in some kind of way.
It's Los Angeles. There's a lot of people that we can send waves and waves.
We might not be deep. We might tighten the rotation on the court.

But as far as the rotation in Los Angeles of ways we can send right to them DMs to get Ant's mind off of the game, we deep.

We deep.

But I mean, he is prepared for the double team.

We saw that in the fourth quarter.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Double, triple team. Maybe a different type of double team we'll throw at him this time.

We'll see.

It's the only thing we can do.

Can I read you the weirdest stat of this game? Luka Doncic 38 points, 45 minutes 1 rebound, 2 assists That's a low number It's a Cam Thomas game What is happening? And LeBron puts up 12 rebounds, 8 assists Oh Whatever this version of LeBron is, it's just, I talked about it a few days ago. It's this new version he's just created now where he's like a hybrid of nine different versions of him for the past.
The stuff he's doing on defense, he's just stripping dudes. He's protecting the rim.
He's moving his feet on defense and blocking passing. He hasn played defense like this I don't think since 2020 personally am I wrong Rosillo? well there was a stretch at the beginning of the season I was like okay this is like bad we were saying he was a DH yeah there was a Denver regular season game where they had him he was the low man and they just were like we're going to run this thing and the off ball guy's dive down and lebron's just not even gonna bother coming over and i'm thinking to myself like you can't possibly pour the fake switch out of the closer like after he was supposed to go to contest at the corner he'd like do a thing where he'd go box out a guy that was next to him and then be pointing it's like dude there's no possible way you thought that i was gonna go over there then he came back and i remember there was a memphis game where i was like holy shit like what like lebron is completely engaged it's great so yeah this is i i think a lot of the really great plays tonight were right at him you know the defecenzo drive where they come out of time out and you're like defecenzoincenzo one-on-one against LeBron.
The problem is DiVincenzo's trying that fucking shot. Like, that guy's never had anybody one-on-one thinking he's not going to make it.
The falling away from the basket, lefty floater layup, right at a guy. It was a high degree of difficulty.
I'll give him that. And then DiVincenzo on the strip play that got overturned.
And credit to LeBron and Lakers staff because lebron and the assistant looked at each other and they were basically like yeah you filed him like this yeah get overturned yeah yeah um divinchenzo gave aunt a grenade like did you see what they did there like divinchenzo ended up getting free and at that point that might have been the first time i've ever seen that guy without the confidence to go it's double d time right because he gave it back to me and did a crazy i just want to be involved in this place so badly, I'm going to do a delayed cut behind you like a trailer. It was almost like a wide receiver hoping for a lateral.
It was like a lateral. And he flipped it back to him.
You're right about game five. No, I need to jump in here because I need to ask Conspiracy Bill a question.
Because the first thing I thought of when I was like three one i was like this well we're both gonna be there yeah i know you go to every laker game now you're the new diane cannon i'm gonna go on tuesday because i love basketball we're still there is it since they got luca we're solo's he's there he's like wearing a slovenian baseball jacket he's he's all in it's funny because i've i've made it a cool cool halftime lounge and then one night i didn't have i wasn't invited with the high end people i was just a commoner and i hit up somebody was like hey can i go uh can i just make sure i get that because somebody wanted to say hi wow like are you out of your fucking mind you're just asking for a bracelet to the cool halftime thing like you have to be invited sir hey i was sir. Taylor Sheridan's in there.
He wants to talk about 1944. Rusillo, but that I'll be 1944.
Rusillo, that's a positive though. What's that? You know where you stand.
Let me tell you what I mean. I have a theory, right? Because they have all these private members clubs in LA.
Yeah. The question is, who's famous enough just to show up at the Soho House and not being a member and just get let up? Like, Will Smith is probably not a member of the Soho House, right? But if he shows up there and goes, hey, I want to check it out.
The Soho House is a bad example, I think. I think anyone can get in the Soho House.
Whatever. I think I did once.
The seven-sinday bungalows. Whatever.
Like, you go there, they're going to let you right up, right? Like, Kevin Hart just walks in. They're like, hey, it's Kevin Hart.
Come on in. He's going to let you right up.
Now you know that you're not quite there yet as far as all privileges. Ryan Russell, old face card, it's me.
Let me up. But that just makes that drive to get there.
You're right there. You're right there, Ryan.
You're like Ant in the Lakers series right now. You're one win away.
And if they see you in the lounge a couple of more times, you're hanging out with Taylor Sheridan, it's you, it's Jessica Alba. By the way, Kings game, I think you're in.
I think you go to any Kings Oilers game, they're just like, boom. Yeah, Kopitar's brother, he let me in once.
He's a huge fan of the pod. You'll know somebody from from the bay it was just the way it happens van i have a question this is all really good thanks guys um uh is the league ready for anthony edwards to be the face of the league hell no no no not at all is there any reason No no no No no no

Like he's too real for TV

You think they've had meetings about this

Been like what happens if this happens

Yeah they might have tried

He's probably

My favorite basketball player

Since Kobe

I'm telling you I love him I love the realness. I really do too.
I fucking love him. I love the fact that even the shit that happens off of the court, which some of it is really fucked up and stupid and just really stupid.
But even that, he just doesn't let it bother him. Even when he kind of looks like an asshole or something, he just doesn't let it bother him.
He doesn't let it bother him. And there's something to be said for someone who is not hung up on every single opinion that people have about him on social media.
He's a hooper and a dude. I would say something else, but I'm in mixed company.
But it just. I think you can say it.
No, no, no, no. Just a hooper and a dude.
And so I dig that. You know, it hurts watching them do it to the Lakers, but I like him.
But no, they are not ready for Anthony Edwards to be the guy that they're building their league around. They're not ready yet.
Well, I think he's ready. Because you go through that.
Think about this gauntlet, Russillo. If he can finish off the Lakers, he's finishing off LeBron and Luka, who are now in the same team.
Then you would go next round, Steph, Draymond, Warriors. And that's before you even get to the third round.
Or Amin Thompson and Van Vliet. Yeah, I'm just saying.
If it's the Warriors, you'd be going through two of the league's icons back-to-back before you even got to the 68-win OKC team that just swept Memphis that is now 72-14 on the season. And then the Celtics are somebody else waiting.
He went Durant-Jokic last year. Right.
Yeah. But these are that we're now in the icon territory though.
Sure, but it's been not a year and I still can't believe they beat Denver in Denver Game 7 the way they did. I can't either.
I can't believe that. That to me is still one of the most unlikely...
I think all this stuff's accurate. i have no pushback or further commentary but i still have to ask conspiracy bill this question yeah because during game two when you were like the lakers are gonna be called for a million fouls they're gonna even the series and i i think i pushed back on some of that stuff with you and then when i was watching games like bill was right it was.
But everybody had four thousand, like the five minute mark of the third quarter.

Right.

But more free throw attempts for Minnesota.

So you'd have to think that people would love for this series to be two, two.

They had a chance to just not overturn that call.

Is it too obvious with the Skyhawk cam from above?

They just they couldn't they couldn't do it.

I'm surprised.

How did they not cut the feet of the Sky cam? They're like, yeah, it's not working. It's out.
I will say this would be a very tough game for Minnesota on Wednesday. Also, the L.A., the crowd's good.
The crowd does affect the refs a little bit. You have LeBron and Luka who are two of the better ref workers as the game goes on.
You combine that with the fans, shit goes down. That's so funny that you think that.
I think Luka's terrible at it. He's annoying though.
Is he bad or good at it? He's just so annoying about it. To have to watch watch like Luca to be a Lakers fan to have Luca come here.
The one thing I hate is bitching more than anything. I hate bitching, which is crazy because I'm one of the world's leading bitchers, but, but I hate it when other people do it.
Right. Tremendous self-awareness though, man.
Yeah. It is what it is.
But I hate it when other people do it. So I don't think that Luka works the rest very well.
I do think the Lakers will win. And then I think they will be smacked in game six.
I don't think game six will be very close. You want to give me a guess the line, Bill? You want to guess the line? Oh, I haven't looked yet.
I would say Lakers by two and a half for game five. Minus two and a half? Minus two and a half Lakers.
It's minus five and a half. It's the same line as game two.
Wow. Interesting.
So they're with you. Like it feels...
But that's three days from now, right? It's Wednesday night? I know, but I just felt like with the matchup, if you could get five and a half with Minnesota, you had to do it. But then history has also told us that the game one home loser wins game two.

I think leading up to last time I said it,

the team that lost home game one was 19-4 in game twos

and won 15-19 by double digits.

I don't know what the game five down 3-1 history is for a team that's still…

What do you think the series line is?

Did you look?

No, I didn't.

T-Wolves are minus 500. Lakers are plus 385.
Ooh. Wow.
You sound like you have way more Lakers hope in you than I imagine. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's hope.
I just think when you have two guys that can put up points like that, I think it's different. Like if Orlando, we're taping this as a Celtics game.
If Orlando goes down 3-1,

they can't score.

They have real issues.

It'd be really hard to put together free wins.

I think it's a little similar to what had to happen for them in 2016

when they had LeBron and Kyrie.

They fell down 3-1.

The league did the ridiculous technical on Draymond

that ends up getting him suspended,

which is still the worst thing,

the worst league decision of this century. But then those guys just went off the next two games.
Remember LeBron and Kyrie? And that would be my fear if I'm Minnesota. Like, how do we make sure those guys don't combine for 80 points? And LeBron, I guess, is just not going to get tired at all during this playoffs.
You can't count on like, oh, he's old. This would be an old legs game for him.
He's just not having them. So let's take a quick break and then we'll talk about the draft.
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The draft, Rusillo was just in his house yesterday

with the McShay crew breaking it down for two hours.

Sanders dropping all the way down to the Browns, hijacked the draft in a lot of ways. Uh, it hijacks, it hijacked my text with Ben Lathan.
Yeah. Um, for sure.
It, uh, it ended up in a really, really weird, goofy place where Cleveland passes on him. It felt like 20 times and then finally took him and they cut to the war room and nobody in the war room seemed like remotely excited about it.
So he almost made you wonder if it was an owner decision, but I wait, instead of talking about the, Oh, how could this have blah, blah, blah. Like there's a bigger picture question of when this happens, why does it happen? So you have some thoughts, man.
You mean the Shadour Sanders situation? Yeah. When somebody drops like this and it's all for the, there's the sports talk reasons for it.
And then there's the actual reason. So let's have the conversation.
So I had a guy, a very high up football guy hit me. And when he heard me on your pod the last time after day one, and it was interesting the way he put it.
I'm going to read this. He goes, on Shadour, he's never been graded that high by the scouts, which is something that I don't think a lot of people are paying that much attention to.
When you hear about Shadour Sanders, you hear about media assessments. He goes, he was a creation of the media, but mostly a creation of the machine built in Boulder.
Then you have to ask yourself with the organization, do you want to deal with his father criticizing your staff every week from his CU press conference? If you're backup, and if he's the backup and your starter has a bad week, do you want to have to respond to what's being said a thousand miles away? It's a lot of baggage that's surrounding an average player. So I think people are trying to make it either or.
They're trying to make it a completely cultural thing or a completely football thing when really what I'm hearing from people that are involved in the NFL, that it's a combination of the two. That if Shador Sanders were more of a can't-miss prospect, then you probably wouldn't be having a lot of the conversations around him that you're having.
But if he's just average or just good, I mean, not transcendent, just average or just good, then the things that come along with it, and we can't act like that there's not going to be more scrutiny with drafting him. There just is.
Fair enough. Hullabaloo.
Hullabaloo. And a lot of people, it scared them off.
And so, look, I think there are a lot of people that are going to take what happened with Shadour and they're going to use it for their own interests, whatever agenda that they have. I think that Shadour Sanders is a much better quarterback than a fifth-round quarterback.
But also, I'm not an NFL scout. I'm a guy that watched him in college.
And I'm starting to realize that a lot of these guys don't care about that. They really don't care about your college tape.
The assessment that they do of you starts, it's partly because of what you did in college. But then it's really the measurables and the stuff that they get and all different types of things that they're watching, um, beyond that.
So I don't know. We're going to have a lot of conversations about this, but I think there's a lot of stuff going on.
That's my guy, Will Campbell, who you told me dominated everybody for the entire time he was at OSU and then did the measurements and he, his arms were an inch short. So then it's like, I don't know, he might be a guard.
But you told me nobody got by him ever at LSU. He was the best pass blocker I've seen at LSU in years.
Maybe ever in terms of just a guy that just, I mean, we didn't run the ball that well. I mean, we had some problems in the interior line and all that stuff.
but we'll went up against the most athletic determined, uh,

pass rushers in the country.

When you talk about sec pass rushers and they just simply couldn't get

around and couldn't get to his quarterback.

Uh,

but when they came out,

they looked at the measurables and they're like,

Oh my God,

maybe have to,

we have to move this guy around.

So,

you know,

like when we're still,

and I taught,

we do,

we love the NBA draft stuff.

We did the redraftables and it's so fun to see like why,

how teams miss on guys,

right?

Like Brunson was somebody we all liked in college.

And then he goes through the process and it's like,

yeah,

he's too short.

What is it?

Is it a two guard?

And then he falls to like 32 and it seems stupid.

With Sanders,

he's clearly not a fifth round pick,

but I do understand.

Like,

here's an example,

like Jacksonville,

right?

Jacksonville is not very good. They took Hunter already who we played with they have Lawrence who were not positive Lawrence is ever going to make it as like a real guy who's going to win playoff games and we get to the fourth round with Jacksonville and it's like this seems like a logical candidate to be like you know what fuck it we're going to take Shadar Sanders let's say we'll have, but here's why can't you do that for Jacksonville? Because the moment you do that, everybody's like, oh man, uh-oh.
Could he take Lawrence's job? And then the moment Lawrence has three picks in week two, then it becomes, should Shador play? Should he get a shot? And Priscilla, I just don't think, I think there's like 20 teams that are just like, we don't want to deal with this. We don't want to deal with all the should he play, should he not play.
We'd rather just take this other guy. Unless you're a first rounder who you feel like needs a little seasoning, for the most part, NFL coaching staffs want backup quarterbacks to be seen and not heard.
And this has never been a sport that wants free thinkers. Like the early Belichick stuff was great because he just immediately had Brady brainwashed and then everybody kind of followed the lead and then Brewski was like totally into it.
And it was just like, you didn't come to Foxborough to be a free thinker, ask why. It's like, this is what we're going to do and go ahead and execute it.
So the Shador tape, I'll tell you what, this is a lesson in just the group think when it comes to mock drafts.

I got this speech years and years ago from an NBA GM just going,

the drafts would be so different, and he was obviously an NBA GM,

because the draft would be so different if there were no mocks.

But eventually you start letting the mock break your own tie,

because you're like, well, if I do this, and I get it wrong, everybody's going to think I'm stupid,

but if I take this guy, it is kind of crazy too. You'll see somebody who's projected to go 13th in the first round of the nfl or nba and then if he goes eighth it's like holy shit are those guys dumb you know and it's just i mean especially the nfl side of it it's like i don't know like it's that big of a reach because i took a guy six spots higher than all the stuff that you keep reading over and over again where the other thing that happens with all these mocks is everybody kind of ends up just looking at everybody else's and goes i don't want to seem like a complete wild card with all this however having said that i've never seen anything like this right belichick belichick was the only one who's like i like cole strange he didn't look at a single bar i just like we're not going to talk about that uh right i i think this is the most dramatic thing that I've ever seen from this.
But after the combine, two teams that have high picks that you could argue could have been in on a quarterback met with your door. They were like, absolutely not.
We've heard the giant story with Brian Dable and him getting into it. So, look, if he was special, OK, if he truly was special, but the Mocs had us believing he was special, the Mocs had probably him believing he was special.
His father had him believing he was special, which is really nice. His dad was there to support him the entire time.
But it feels like he went into this. He went into this thinking like, I don't have to say shit to you guys.
And these guys looked at the film saying, your film is like average. And now you come in here with this entitlement.
Like's just not going to work like that's just not the way an nfl locker room would ever they would never sign up for something for somebody that they think is fairly replaceable may never even be i mean look there's plenty of first rounders they're going to completely whiff so uh i feel bad in the sense that i don't you know again i don't he shouldn't have been a fifth rounder. So I could be really mean about this and say, hey, he brought it all on himself.
I think it also proves that Deion has zero relationships with decision makers in the NFL. No agent.
Hey, we're doing it our way. It's going to be non-traditional.
I don't know if the league decided to punish him for it. I think a lot of people just said, hey, I don't know that I want this.
I don't know that I want this in my QB room if he's not really, really special. And I think everybody kind of agreed on that without it being collusion.
Yeah, I think Deion is beloved by the media, and rightly so. He's been a major star for the last 30 plus years.
As far as the football culture decision-maker guys,

I don't know if that,

those relationships and sort of how he's revered,

if that carries on there,

I think that we're probably all seeing that now.

I will say this though.

I remember back when,

when we was on a bus one time

and this girl had tried to holler at this guy,

we was in high school and he didn't like it. And then he went around to everybody in school being like, hey man, Tuch tried to holler at me.
Tuch tried to holler at me. Tuch tried to holler at me.
And after a while, we started asking him like, why are you telling all of us that she tried to holler at you? Like, why is it getting around the whole school that you don't like her? The thing that I was struck by with Shadour Sanders is the amount of negative experiences and highlighting every single negative thing that was wrong with him got to a fever pitch in a way that I don't remember seeing. And I think the question is like, why is that happening? Was that happening because Shadour Sanders was such a notable and forward-facing athlete? Was that backlash from all of the rapping and the chains and all of that stuff? Was that a referendum on Dion? But it did turn negative in a way to where we're hearing, well, I looked up all of the old interviews,

the interview stories that we've heard of.

And typically when we're hearing, well, I looked up all of the old interviews, the interview stories that we've heard of. And typically when we hear an interview story from the draft, we've heard about bad interviews, but when we hear about bad interviews, we normally hear about bad questions from franchises.
We hear about somebody asking you if you're gay or somebody asking you about something with your mom or somebody asking you that we don't hear really about how a prospect with an interview as much as we've heard about this bad interview with the Giants. and I can't put my head around why that is.
Either that's people saying that,

okay, he's a fifth round talent

or a second or third round talent

and he did terrible in this interview.

Let us quell the outrage and explain why he's not being drafted. Or there was some kind of hate for the kid that in some way they didn't have for other prospects based upon something outside of his control other other than, you know, how he, he acts and carries himself.
Well, you also have probably 10, 11 teams total are going to be in the pool to take them. And then individually each team talked themselves out of him for whatever reason, the most surprising being Pittsburgh.
But I do wonder is a piece of this, you draft, like you have the coach is one of the people in the decision-making room, in every room, right? You know if you draft him. I think it was one of the reports.
I think Schefter said this. He reported there's a coach that would be worried that the moment you bring this guy in, it's going to be just nonstop.
Dion's going to replace. He's going to be the next coach.
He's going to coach his kid. We know that coaches we know that coaches can sabotage this shit in subtle ways, but we're so the only bad interview, we've heard some bad interview stories with the NBA stuff.
The only one I remember hearing was the LaMelo one when, when, um, when team, the team thought he tanked the interview because he wanted to go somewhere else that other than that, I don't, do you remember many interview stuff with NBA teams? Yeah, I do. I don't know.
I'll just pick a name out of a hat because I go to the combine. I heard Jake Laravia wasn't the greatest hang in a meeting.
All right? Went in the first round. Guess what? Nobody gives a shit about Jake Laravia's sit down with a team because it's Jake Laravia, right? It's Shador.
And so I understand, Van, your point. We talked about this at such a level that it felt uncommon, but I do think if you're on it every year, like I'll hear from McShay over the years, be like, hey, what happened to that guy? I'd be like, oh, he sucked.
He sucked in his interview. He sucked on the whiteboard.
He was totally lost. I don't know that anybody ever cared enough for us to talk about it as much as we are with shador because you know it's it's i don't know like i want to ask you this question i kind of want to ask you this question because i know that like we'll see what happens monday on the tv shows and everything but race became a topic with this thing.
And I get, and I always feel like, all right, when I see the guys arguing that it isn't about race, a lot of times that I guys, the guys have seen it doing it. I'm like, Oh shit, I don't want to be like aligned with that guy.
But if there's one field that I feel pretty comfortable talking about, it's sports, right? I think that NBA and NFL decision makers are probably the most forward thinking of like, hey, if you can play and you can help my team, like this is how I'm going to evaluate you. So I'd ask, is there is there ever a chance that with Shador, it can be about Shador and not about a race? So, OK, so a lot of people say race and they mean culture, yeah i mean correct me where i need to be correct no no no no no i'm not talking about you so a lot of people say race and they mean culture right it would be it would be silly to look at the draft after a quarter a black quarterback went number one and went nfl uh owners don't want to draft black players, right? That's not the, but there is a thought that there is a specific type of black player or black man that is a specific affront to power structures.
And that's someone who doesn't walk in and isn't artificially humble, who doesn't walk in and doesn't mute himself, is big in a room and is lighting up a room and knows that he has it. That there's a specific feeling from some people that that guy has to be broken down and cut down a peg, right? It's interesting.
When I was listening, when I was watching Shadour Sanders, I was thinking about Adrian Broner. And a lot of people aren't going to be able to make this connection.
Adrian Broner is a legitimate four-weight world champion, like a legitimate boxing achiever. However, in order for him to carry the type of bravado that he did with him,

he would have had to have been perfect. If you're going to be Floyd or if you're going to be Ali

or if you're going to be Deion Sanders, you can almost never lose. You have to be perfect

because if you are not perfect and you have that type of confidence and that type of bravado

and that type of oomph with you, then they will cut you down. And so when people are saying race, they're talking about Black man.
They're saying Black man, but they're not really talking about Black men. They're talking about one specific type of Black man.
And it's the type that they seem to always want to go at when they're trying to make an example of someone. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that that's what's happening with Shador Sanders, but there's an uncomfortability and attention there because of what we've seen happen to athletes like this in the past.
Now, if you got the goods, it don't matter, right? Because all of the guys I was just talking about, Deion, Ali, whomever you want to name. And if you got the goods,

it don't matter. But it does kind of

seem like sometimes

they want you to, if you're black,

they want you to be great. They want you to be

amazing, but they don't want you to put it in their

face. You know what I mean?

But once again, I don't know.

How much of that has to do with the position he plays

and what people seem

to expect from the quarterback position when you're talking about leadership, charisma, calming force, guy who lifts up your teammates. And they're looking at him and it's like, if this guy's going to carry himself a certain way, but doesn't have the talent to back it up, it's almost like counterproductive.
The second part is the entire part of it, you know, I'm a huge LSU fan. Nobody had more swagger than my vanilla champion, Joe Burrow.
Nobody had more swagger. We smoking cigars.
We this. We flipping the ball.
We boom, boom, boom, boom. The whole thing.
By the way, I saw him at the Lakers game in person. Beautiful.
Stunning. But we also threw 60 touchdowns, right? We threw 60 touchdowns.
We won the Heisman. We got to the league.
We, I don't know, I've never met the dude. He took a team to the Super Bowl.
I'm proud. So that's the whole deal.
So there's two parts of it. The first part of it, I think a lot of people, the conversation is this.
Is he good enough to comport himself in the way that he does? That's the first question. The second question is, does he have to be? Can't he just be confident about himself? Can't he just be happy to be Shadour Sanders? Can't he just be, he ain't never been in no trouble? He ain't never, does he have to be as excellent as people would want him to be in order to be as big as he wants to be? You know what it reminds me of a little bit? I'm going to do something really dangerous.
I'm going to use a cross-racial comparison. Oh, Jesus.
I'm a veteran. Here we go.
You're not going to say Marshall Henderson, are you? Oh, shit. Ole Miss.
See? I wasn what I'm talking about. Do you know this? Do you know that guy? Personally? No, I'm talking about Bill.
Do you know who he's talking about? I know the name. I don't know the reference.
Oh, Bill, that was my favorite wife for many years. For Ole Miss, had a checkered

story, had been to a JUCO

or been to a different school,

just used to come to Ole Miss, would shoot

39%, but score

like 35%

and flip off everybody

in the crowd. I loved that guy.

I can't believe you just pulled that name.

I was going to say Adam Morrison. Here's why.
Okay. Because he had that really fun college season that everybody enjoyed.
Then he flamed out in the tournament and he cried on the court and it became a thing. And then he became one of the most polarizing prospects in a while.
And some people were like, that guy's not athletic enough to be a starting small forward in the NBA and be able to score. And other people were like, you got to look at his history.
Look at the college, look at all the stuff, the big game and all the carrying a team, all the same stuff. And then Charlotte ended up taking him third.
They bought into it and he was a bust. But it's the same kind of thing where the fans are seeing one thing because they're like no no no no he did this and i watched this game in gonzaga we had 38 which is a little like watching colorado on a saturday night like no no that game the 53 52 game and he was awesome and then all the diehard nfl people were like he doesn't have it it's barely a starter best case there teddy bridgewater maybe andy dalton and it just didn't jive with what I think the general public saw.
Right. Am I crazy? Uh, yeah, I think the public, I think almost feels like it was the public.
Was it the media? Was it also the Sanders family? Like, did everybody fall into some trap of like, you know, look, I still don't think he should have been a fifth rounder i don't think he should have gone behind milrow i definitely don't think he should have gone behind dylan gabriel how about the 26 year old um you went behind that guy tyler show yeah so to the saints yeah i don't know some of the football football guys really like Chuck so much during the pre-draft process.

No, I had Quincy Avery on who works with all these guys at a really young age.

And man, Quincy like nailed this.

Quincy came on the pod was like, hey, if his name was Shador Williams, he's a six rounder.

And even I was like, well, you know, and I've known Quincy a long time and respect the hell out of it.

Like I got done with that pod and I was like, he hates he fucking hates that dude. Like that's what I was like, well, you know, and I've known Quincy a long time and respect the hell out of it.
Like I got done with that pod and I was like, he hates, he fucking hates that dude.

Like, that's what I was thinking.

I don't know that anybody nailed it the way he, maybe there were other people.

Delaney Walker had it pretty good too.

Yeah.

Yeah. He did too.

He did too.

Yeah.

Right.

Titans tight end there.

So I guess, you know what I would say?

And like, sometimes I feel like it should be good news that it may have just been a football evaluation. Like, what if it was just about his football tape? And what if in his job interviews, he just didn't do a very good job? Like, wouldn't that be better news if that's what it was? And then sometimes I just like, I see some of the comps like, oh, Eli Manning.
It's like, yeah, I don't know. Arch called his shot and he got away with it.
and Eli was i i just like i see some of the comps like oh eli manning it's like yeah i don't know arch called his shot and he got away with it and eli was this consensus number one right everybody thought he was good there's no no one can compare eli the prospect to even if the mock screwed up the shador thing and colin coward our friend colin who had the what was the pittsburgh trade tj. Whoa.
Somebody else. Don't do a chore guy.
He's got the Ben Simmons LeBron. Yeah.
That was a bad one. It's okay, LeBron.
It's okay. Hey.
Ben Simmons is here. Be nice to my guy.
I love him. I love him.
So this is what I'll say. First of all, I'm one of those weird people that talking about this stuff just doesn't make me angry, right? Because even if it's not the thing or if it is the thing, it doesn't hurt us or there's no skin off our neck from just talking about it, right? Like investigating the culture, investigating the things that might be undergirding these topics, whatever.
Just don't be so precious about it. Talk about it, whether it is or whether it's's not i think we're probably learning in a real way that the nfl minds just weren't as high on shador sanders as a football player as the rest of us were and and that's a real thing right that's a that that can't be denied i think that's the one part of this that cannot be debated it doesn't mean it's the only part of it but it feels like a of it.
Can I add one piece to that? It doesn't seem like anybody thought he was a definite starting quarterback because we know this because the Steelers, who literally don't have a quarterback, were like, yeah, even we don't think he's a quarterback. But it also seems like teams were a little worried that he'd be a good backup, which is the whole point if you're taking a quarterback.
You want somebody who can be the backup. He's in the room.
Maybe he can play.

Maybe he can play. Maybe he has the upside to be a starter, but he's just going to be able to fit in.
And as Russell said earlier, you don't really want to hear from this guy that much. He's going to be on the bench with the headset, tell him what's to play.
And obviously teams felt like even that seemed like a tall task for him. Cleveland ends up taking him.
They have the weirdest quarterback room, I think in the history of football. I don't know if you've seen the list.
It's like, it's just bonkers, but really the search is only beginning because now out of him and Dylan Gabriel, I mean, one of those guys isn't going to make the team. You know what I mean? Like, like it's one of those guys might be go to the practice squad.
would say kenny pickett maybe i hope he's renting an apartment would be my guess well they can ir deshaun so they can carry the fourth one because i think right i guess so yeah yeah and i look i'm not trying to correct you i i'm playing out all the different stairs because you could be right you know right but there i think there's some creative math there because i think the deshaun part of it is to try to get the insurance money, have an IR out for the year, and then that way the policy covers some of the contracts. Can we talk about the most important story of the weekend, though? The Patriots fucking nailing a draft and getting an A-plus on Bleacher Report? We got an A-plus.
Is this the only time you've ever liked Bleacher Report? This is the only time I've liked a Patriots draft, I think, this century, where I've just felt we didn't do one thing that made me go, wait, what happened? Why do we... Even Van was like, every time we took an OSU guy, Van was like, I love that guy.
That's my guy. Well, first of all, by the way, people think I'm a homer.
I'm very honest when it comes to the LSU players. Yeah, I know.
That's why when you were excited about each guy we took, it made me more excited. The only guy you guys missed on, Mason Taylor, he ends up going to the Jets.
I know. I think he's going to be a Jason Witten type security blanket for a quarterback.
I think he was on the list. The OSU running back fell to 38, I think.
They didn't even interview him. They just took him.
But I am shocked. And I hadn't been following it as much.
Because once again, I'm a college ball lover. That's another thing about Shadour.
I'll just say this before I get – like, I watched him get annihilated. Killed.
Not miss games because of injuries. Tough.
Right, right. Make throws, stand in there, stare defenses down, and just make plays and make throws.
And I'm like, that's what you want out of a QB. I've also watched them like the 98-yard drive to tie the game, the two-minute drill.
That's what you want in a QB. And I guess I wasn't seeing the ball rotation right or whatever.
But Brayden Swenson from LSU. Fifth round edge rusher, yeah.
Eight and a half sacks, a legit hell raiser. You guys get him in the fifth round.
I have no idea how Brayden Swenson fell to the fifth round. We got a long snapper and a kicker.
My dad was like, I talked to him this morning and usually the first 50 minutes would be like, I don't know what happened in the second round. We took that guy there who's coming off the torn ACL or whatever.
He was delighted. What was the biggest shock for you, Rousseau, in the draft in general? Was there anything that stupefied you? No, I just want to stay on Swenson here for a second because here, Whit Weeks, are the two best players on that defense all year long.
Absolutely. I mean, Swenson, just consistent edge pressure of the edge guys because wit plays in the middle brayden just even as the season went on it just got better and better and better so i don't know if it's because he's older i don't know he didn't run a 40 we were trying to figure it out the other day in the live show he may not like normally hey i don't want to run a 40 they couldn't figure out why he hadn't won I know there's probably some other part of it that I'm missing.
But again, fifth round just seemed crazy. But it's also probably the deepest position in the entire draft.
I mean, load. There's guys going to the third round.
Yeah. I love this draft kind of like from the beginning of the second round on.
Just how many dudes in the second round where I'm like, I love that guy. That's another guy that I love.
A ton of running backs, like third, fourth round range.

It's like really deep in certain spots.

I know.

I still don't really care.

Like, I know everybody's on this running back thing

because Gentty goes as high as he did

and because Saquon just did what he did for the Eagles.

But I think he'd be making a huge mistake now

deciding to prioritize all this stuff.

So, yes, I agree with my friend Van here.

Trevion Henderson, you probably thought

it was going to be a top 10 pick after freshman year. After freshman year, you were like, who is this dude? Because Herb Street was putting a little extra on his name in the beginning because he knew the deal of how special he was when he showed up to Columbus.
And I think I speak pretty fluent Herb Street because I've been listening to him for so long and all the years traveling with those guys as well. He just was in awe of him.
And then Judkins comes in this year, and I actually felt like even though Judkins had the flash, Trevion was still the dude in a way, even if the momentum dumped off that a little bit. But I love Mason Taylor, and I know it sounds like it's just two LSU fans going at it here yeah taylor they went away from him at lsu because they had nfl wide receivers all over the place and he is not only fast and huge he's a fucking baller okay and when he needed to fight and compete and all that kind of stuff like i didn't have to question anything i think if he had been somewhere that didn't have as much wide receiver, he was like their desperate third down option.
I don't know that there's ever a version of Mason Taylor lasting to the second round. But the tight end class was loaded.
I just kind of wish he was Drake May's target for you because I don't care. I think he was the backup if Anderson wasn't there, to be honest.
I think they wanted to get a weapon. They weren't going to take a wide receiver.

No, I mean, he went like, what, four picks later?

Three picks later? It was right in the vicinity.

It was a mutual decision. I give Henderson

a lot of credit, though. I give Henderson a lot

of credit because

I give Henderson a lot of credit because

he

when they

brought in Quincy John Junkins

to split carries with him, I was like, Jesus Christ, what kind of bell cow bellwether back wants another guy? And Junkins had had some injury problems at Ole Miss, and it wasn't quite, but everyone that had watched him in the SEC knew that he could flat out play. But Henderson handled it really, really well, never complained.
He's probably psyched he didn't have the extra miles going on him before he went to the NFL. I'd be delighted.
It might have cost him a draft capital though, right? Because the guy had had such an amazing freshman season that if he sticks around a little bit longer and continues to put those numbers up, then maybe he's a high or mid-first rounder. We have to wrap up because I want to watch the Celtics game because right now it's 4.43, but I have to ask you guys this.
Should I be worried about Belichick and this girlfriend? I'm not. I'm new.
I'm opening my show. I don't even care.
It's the NBA playoffs draft recap. I'm starting my Tuesday show.
I've got 15 minutes on this. This is unbelievable.
No, no, but go ahead. Give me your thoughts.
Well, I mean, for me, Belichick's like a family member. It's like he's like my uncle.
He's just part of the fam. And I feel like this woman is so crazy.
I'm just scared for him. I want to talk about your timeline with Belichick, and I'm sorry to interrupt, but after that Apple doc, you've never been closer with Belichick.
You've gone on the offensive in defense of him. I've noticed it.
I know there's a real tone out of you. I really appreciate him.
Did he frustrate me during the draft? Sure. Was he a barrel lobster in the press conferences? Not really.
Did we win six Super Bowls? Were we awesome for 20 years? Yeah. I love Belichick I'm worried about him give us your worries give us your concerns cause I'm zagging let me hear the zag before I get my concerns ok the things that that young woman must be doing to Bill Belichick you guys are worried about him I'm happy for for him.
Curling toes. Like, I'm happy for him.
Belichick got ready. It's Bill fucking Belichick.
It's Darth Vader in a hoodie. He got ready to answer a question.
She said, no, we're not talking about that. And she's using we with everything.
Bill Belichick stood down, turned around, and looked like this. Like a Stepford Belichick.
A Stepford Belichick. But the stuff she must be doing to Belichick must have his just blowing his mind.
He's got to be happy. He's got to be happy.
It reminds me of when Katie Holmes startedmes started dating cruz and we all started getting worried for her when she started become when she got stepford wives by by cruz all of a sudden it's like oh no we gotta save katie holmes i i just when that video of her in the high heels walking on the football field that's belichick is katie hol. Belichick is Katie Holmes.
That's important.

That video of her going on the field

and ordering people around

like she was a party planner at a wedding

and it's like,

it's spring scrimmage.

What do the people at the school think of this?

And did you see that she shut down?

Somebody was printing Belichick t-shirts

and she like shut the account down.

Yeah.

I just,

it's not good.

We've seen a lot of these over the years and this one doesn't feel like it ends that well. How does it end? Not well.
A breakup? Yeah, like a breakup. But they all end.
A tell-all book. The ones that don't break up, they're just roommates.
I just want them to win some games at UNC. I was looking forward to it.
I casually root for LSU because I like my friend Van. I was excited to root for UNC.
I was actually excited for this college football season. Now I'm worried our guy Belichick is in trouble.
Anyway, Van, I'm sure he's talking. If I was a UNC booster, I would be worried after this interview.
Like, were we dumping our money into? Okay. Look, just one comment on it.
here is bill who has never let anybody tell him how it's done no ever not even robber craft right like if there's one thing we know about this guy's like i'm doing a team photo fuck you oh video game nah you know i whatever the petty shit i can do oh that's a new petty thing i can do. I'll do that, too.
Like, you would have signed O.J. Simpson in 98.
Absolutely. Right.
Absolutely. That's Patriots way thing because I got one lineman in the late 90s for a woman who's 24 to tell him, you know, and this wasn't panhandle.
She's four years older than my daughter. Right.
How did you meet Connor Willow online? You know and this wasn't panhandle she's four years older than my daughter right how did you meet connor willa online you know this is she's off to the side like you went on fucking cbs what'd you think this was gonna be some guy from the worcester bugle right you know you went on to promote your book and it's cbs this isn't after another win to go 11-2 on the season, and somebody from the fucking Boston Herald's like, hey, what were you thinking with that last time out? They're trying to find a way to compete and win the game. But you say he's 72.
I would be worried if this was Russillo in his late 40s, and it was like, did you hear about this girl Russillo's dating? Yeah. She doesn't live anymore.
I'm not being too critical of the relationship because there is a scenario, right? I'm going to talk about the ages. I'm talking about the uprooting the life part.
Right, right. This Belichick, this mystical figure who never seemed like this would ever happen to him.
And it's happened. He was wearing a distressed Navy pullover.
Okay, but that might be in. That he may have paid for those abrasions.
He was wearing a distressed Navy pullover. Like, I'm telling you, man, this is just the beginning of it.
Bill Belichick, TikTok is coming. The whole situation is coming because she is putting it on his motherfucking ass.
That's what's happening right there. Be happy for him.
Six-time Super Bowl champion Bill Belichick getting it put on his ass. He's going to have a TikTok.
He's going to be doing dancing videos where he's dancing with his six rings. Like, what is happening? All right.

Thanks, guys.

Peace.

Bye.

All right.

That's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Gid Howe.

Thanks to Van.

Thanks to Rosillo.

Don't forget, you can watch all the clips from this

on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel,

including the second hour of this podcast,

which is also just available by itself as a clip.

New rewatchables come on Monday night.

Someone to watch over me.

Celtic City, last episode, HBO, 9 p.m.

Thank you. which is also just available by itself as a clip.
New Rewatchables come on Monday night. Someone watch over me.
Celtic City, last episode, HBO, 9 p.m., Monday night. And I will see you in this podcast on Tuesday.
I'm going to see them on a waist or a little set. I don't have feelings with him.
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