The Celtics Blow It Up and More Predraft Story Lines With Chris Mannix

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Speaker 1 On this podcast, Chris Manix and I are going to break down the funeral of the 2024 Celtics and a bunch of other stuff heading into.

Speaker 1 the NBA draft on Wednesday night after the NBA draft, after round one, I am going to be there with J. Kyle Mann and Joe House, and we're going to be reacting.

Speaker 1 And Joe House, he has got the sixth pick in the draft. I don't know if we're getting drunk house, but we're definitely getting at least Buzz House.
We'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 But we'll be ready to go on

Speaker 1 right after the draft. Can't wait.
One of my favorite days of the year. I don't know why they moved it from Thursday to Wednesday, but it's fine.
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Speaker 1 It'll be fun. Anyway, Chris Mannix next.
We're going to take a break. We're going to bring in our friends from Pearl Jam, and then we're off.
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Speaker 1 All right, it's been a while. Chris Manix is here.
We're taping this a little after 4:30 Pacific time in the afternoon. Was kind of waiting for stuff to happen happen today.

Speaker 1 We had the Drew Holiday trade last night, and then Christops Borzingis sent to Atlanta today. Chris Mannix, the 2024 Celtics funeral is here.

Speaker 1 They lopped off miraculously $28 million in two trades.

Speaker 1 They got under the second apron, which doesn't just save them almost 200 million in luxury tax, but also has all these other positive roster benefits.

Speaker 1 There still might be another trade because I think both of us feel like there might be a Sam Hauser Hauser something.

Speaker 1 They want to bring back Luke Cornette. They want to potentially bring back Al Horford.
So there's some other stuff happening.

Speaker 1 But did you think it was going to be this simple for the Celtics to cut that much money when you have to take contracts back in trades? And somehow Simon's $5 million less than

Speaker 1 Drew Holiday. And then Niang is $22 million less than Porzingas.
This was a borderline miracle.

Speaker 2 I thought they made some great deals, and I thought they found the exact right partners to deal with. Like,

Speaker 2 you might think, hey, what does Portland need Drew Holiday for? Like, they're not good, but Portland is trying to build this defensive identity.

Speaker 2 And Portland clearly had no interest in giving Anthony Simons any kind of money after this season. They did that once.
They weren't going to do it again.

Speaker 2 So, really, what the Blazers are doing with Holiday is taking the two years left on his deal, getting him on a basically a three-year deal for a guy like that. They can live with that.

Speaker 2 And look, the Celtics can just take this flyer on Simons, let him shoot 503s next year and

Speaker 2 walk away from him.

Speaker 2 Maybe he shows them something. Maybe he wants to be there.
Maybe it clicks, but they can just walk away from that. Atlanta, they're another perfect partner.
Like they were looking to do,

Speaker 2 they didn't really want to just blow the whole thing up and trade away Trey and reboot that whole thing.

Speaker 2 They didn't, I never got the vibe from them that that was kind of what they were looking for over the last few weeks.

Speaker 2 You know, Porzingis at his best looks like a really good fit playing opposite Trey Young. And like contract year Chris Des Porzingis is going to ball out.

Speaker 2 Like the last time we saw contract year-ish Porzingis was in Washington and he put up huge numbers there. I think you're going to get the very best of Chris S.
Porzingis.

Speaker 2 So look, the circumstances suck. The Celtics are not going to be good next year.

Speaker 2 You know, probably be lucky to fight for, I mean, I guess the Eastern Conference, anything is possible, but they're probably a play-in type of team.

Speaker 2 But I thought they did really well given the circumstances because they found the two teams out there that needed exactly what they had.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm going to reach into my zag bag. I have multiple zags for everything you just said.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 First of all, I'm not sure the Celtics are going to be that bad next year in this weird Eastern Conference.

Speaker 1 Is it, am I just, is it the Celtics fan side of me just kicking in? I was looking at the roster and I'm like, man,

Speaker 1 holiday in the playoffs and in the Knicks series, I thought looked pretty rough.

Speaker 1 That was a team that I think four years ago, I was talking to my dad about this yesterday because my dad was visiting. We were like, four years ago, holiday against Brunson, holiday guarding Towns.

Speaker 1 You could have thrown Holiday on basically any Knick and he would have been hugely impactful. And he just wasn't in the Knicks series.
I was a little nervous about him going, going forward.

Speaker 1 You flip him into Simons, who fills this scoring void that they clearly need with Tatum, who I think, you know, Portland was pretty good down the stretch last year.

Speaker 1 And he wasn't not a piece of that, you know? So

Speaker 1 I just,

Speaker 1 I'm not willing to go play in yet with them. And I don't think they're wired that way.
You have a new owner. I don't think he's going to be like, cool, let's go 35 and 47.

Speaker 1 Like, you don't think Jalen Brown is going to be going, hey, look at, look at the East.

Speaker 1 Indiana is now with this Halliburton situation. Knicks, new coach, who knows? Like, you go on through and maybe Jalen Brown's like, this is my time now.
I can carry us. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I'm not, I'm, I, I think all bets are off with the 2025, 26 Celtics, including more trades and them just gutting shit.

Speaker 2 So what,

Speaker 2 let's dig into that a little bit. Like, I, I love the lens that Brad Stevens is viewing this through.
Like, like, you might be right.

Speaker 2 Like, Jalen Brown is probably a lock for an all-NBA team, assuming he meets the criteria next year. I think he's going to be great.

Speaker 2 Simons is going to score. Like, they've got Derek White's going to be Derek White.
They've got pieces there, but they're not a championship team. Like, God.
They can

Speaker 2 both get on board.

Speaker 2 So I think what the Celtics probably look at and are saying, like, all right, we can

Speaker 2 bring the band back,

Speaker 2 pay the luxury tax penalties.

Speaker 2 uh maybe maybe slide under the second apron who knows whatever they they may do and are we going to to be happy with like this second round playoff exit like is that a victory for them like to me this is all setting up an aggressive summer and summer of the 20 2026 when they can lose these repeater tax penalties they can be under uh the second apron maybe even under the first apron if they make a uh a few deals I think they're setting themselves up for that 26, 27 season.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 1 you can't hit that point hard enough, though, because it's not just the money. It's all this weird roster shit that comes with being over the second apron and being a repeater.

Speaker 1 Like it actually really does hurt your roster for multiple years.

Speaker 2 Kills it.

Speaker 1 And you have to get under it. So they did.

Speaker 2 They did.

Speaker 2 I applaud them for that. Like, I don't, I don't care about a second, like making the playoffs as a four seed and being feisty against the Knicks in the second round.
I don't care about that.

Speaker 2 I don't think Brad Stevens cares about that either. Like this, this to me, all these deals scream, like, let's just get through next year.
Let's take the gap year and then let's have flexibility.

Speaker 2 Like we can go into 26, 27 with still arguably one of the top five two-man duos in the NBA in Tatum and Brown. Like that can be the core.
Derek White is still under contract.

Speaker 2 He can be part of the core. Like they, they're giving themselves room to operate in the summer of 2026.
And all they're doing really is sacrificing, you know,

Speaker 2 whatever next year is going to look like. I mean, look, I did think Porzingis was kind of interesting to move off him, to him to be the first guy or one of the first guys you move off because

Speaker 2 he loves it in Boston. He loves his role in Boston.
loves playing there, everything about being a Celtic. Like, could you have convinced Porzingis next summer to sign for a lesser number?

Speaker 2 Maybe, maybe to be part of what they were doing there. Maybe you could have convinced him.
Hell, maybe you can still convince him to do that if you have some room to operate. Thank you.

Speaker 1 How do we know he's not just moving to Atlanta for nine months and coming back?

Speaker 2 He might, or he can sign with the Wizards again for the gargantuan on a cap space. They're a freaking reason.
$100 million a year.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 So that was kind of interesting to me that

Speaker 2 they moved off him as quickly as they did. But everything else, like I get it.
Like this, there'll be a feisty, fun team next year. I think Simon's going to have some great moments at the team.

Speaker 2 Like he's, he's going to put up like 40-point games at some point with them. But they're not going to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 I can't wait to talk about Simons. But there's so you said something interesting there.
You said this allows them to be really aggressive in the summer of 2026.

Speaker 1 I don't disagree.

Speaker 1 What if it allows them to be really aggressive in January or February of 2026? Because the hidden piece of this, now they have Niang, who's, I think he's expiring after this year, right?

Speaker 1 And then Simon, same thing. You put those together.
I'm at 35 million with those two guys, right? I am now in the mix in a bunch of different ways now, right?

Speaker 1 What if the Celtics are better than they thought? What if Tatum's rehab is way ahead of and they feel like he can come back and market? Like, I just think they wanted malleability with the roster.

Speaker 1 And with Drew,

Speaker 2 which, you know,

Speaker 1 if you do the on-paper thing with the Drew Simons trade, you'd be like, whoa, Boston got a younger player on an expiring whose arrow is still maybe pointing up a tiny bit, Drew's arrow pointing down.

Speaker 1 That's not why Portland did the deal. I mean, Drew is like, you saw it

Speaker 1 and you were, you were covering the selves a little bit last year. Like the.
Drew is like one of the most beloved behind the scenes teammates in Milwaukee,

Speaker 1 in

Speaker 1 Boston. Like just, he he was in Boston for two years and I think he goes down.

Speaker 1 Him and Horford, I think, are going to go down as Hall of Fame, just everybody in the organization raving about people as people.

Speaker 1 If you're Portland, you have this defensive identity you're building, but more importantly, you're bringing in like an adult, an awesome guy, a role model, a leader, like just everything you're looking for if you're a younger team.

Speaker 1 And you have to factor that in with the trade.

Speaker 1 Even if he was slipping a little bit last year, the stuff he brings, like think about Horford, just the last few years of his career, where it's like, I don't know, he's now almost 40, still doing it.

Speaker 1 Like, holiday might be able to be that guy for three, four more years, but it's the off-the-court stuff that I think,

Speaker 1 you know, they, that's just, you need that shit. Nobody's signing to go play in Portland.
So, anyway, I really like that trade for both teams.

Speaker 1 You mentioned the Simons piece, like, and obviously the West Coast League pass. I've watched my share of Portland.
I have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock. Simons will just go nuts.

Speaker 2 You have a a lot of Scoot Henderson stock?

Speaker 1 Me and Rasillo. We have most of it.
We cornered the market.

Speaker 2 I respected your Neesmith Island stock.

Speaker 1 I don't know. We had that.
We bought it. We just invested in Cam Whitmore, Island.

Speaker 1 But Simons will just get super hot. And you look at this.
This is why I was talking back before about like, I don't know if the Celtics are going to be that bad. You, Pritchard and Simons out there.

Speaker 1 Those are like two of the better heat check guards in the league. You have Jalen, who's still a top 20 guy.
You might have rebounding. You're going to have a good coach.

Speaker 1 You have this philosophy of just gunning up threes. They're going to be way worse defensively.
Porzingis played half the year last year and then was

Speaker 1 a corpse in the playoffs because he wasn't healthy. I don't know.
Like, I don't know how much worse. The Tatum piece is the piece that's the disaster.

Speaker 1 But if you talk about the rest of it, they might be all right. They might be an overachiever.
I don't know. I'm prepared for anything.

Speaker 2 I'm prepared for a top five team potentially if everybody stays healthy and everything goes right for them. But again, that doesn't, it doesn't get you anywhere.
Like

Speaker 2 what I like to do.

Speaker 1 But the thing is, can they be fun though? I think is what matters.

Speaker 1 Cause if you're doing basically a gap year and you're resetting it, you can't, you have the Celtics run where the fans have just watched a really awesome team for eight years in a row.

Speaker 1 You can't just be like, yep, we don't care about this year. Like, I still feel like they care a little bit about this year, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Not to win a title, but just to be entertaining.

Speaker 2 I think we're looking at it. We're kind of, we kind of, you and I care about two different things.
One,

Speaker 2 well, you care more than I do about them being fun next year. Like, I don't care.

Speaker 1 Fun and malleable are the two words I would use. I want them to have a malleable roster and actually not be a disaster.

Speaker 2 Malleable is fine. I mean, they're not, with Jalen Brown and the talent they have, they're never going to be a disaster.

Speaker 2 And the conference that they're in that gets weaker by literally the day with the Halliburton injury, like it's going to be impossible for them

Speaker 2 not to compete. Although, you know, God knows what the Wizards look like.
They might actually be better

Speaker 2 next year.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 I just don't, I don't care. Like, I think what I know what Brad's doing is saying, like, look, Tatum,

Speaker 2 put whatever timeline you want on him, but I'm skeptical Tatum comes back at all. Like, I don't see the point to it.
Like, there's no way. People say in like eight, nine months, like, in what world?

Speaker 2 Like, why would you drop him back into the lineup post all-star break when you might be in a playoff race? That's just a recipe for disaster. That makes no sense.

Speaker 2 Like, they, they have their pick in 2026. Like, that has to be factored in.

Speaker 1 Chris, don't ruin this for me.

Speaker 2 I'm just saying, man. Like, they've got their pick in 2026.
Let them, I mean,

Speaker 2 Boston fans can accept a gap year where they stink out the joint, maybe even wind up with a lottery pick if they're really, if they go the other way and are really bad.

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, in the summer of 2026, you got Tatum coming back. You've got Brown still there.
You've got White still there. You've got the genius of Brad Stevens.

Speaker 2 And I think he's really good at this job. He was a really good coach, and he's also a really good general manager.
You got that all in play to shake up the roster one more time in the summer of 2026.

Speaker 2 I'm fine with that. I don't care if they win 30 games next year.
I really don't. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Let's do this exercise then, Chris Manix.

Speaker 1 Here's a Celtics team that's going to have Jalen Brown, Derek White, Peyton Pritchard, Inferny Simons, Niang. I'm going to throw in Horford and Cornet.

Speaker 2 Little Katie. Hold on, hold on.
You think Horford's back?

Speaker 1 I do. I think he finishes his career in Boston.
I think it's hit that point with him. Why are you skeptical?

Speaker 2 I think the market could be really interesting for Horford. If he, look, maybe he wants the stakes.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 He's made $300 million.

Speaker 2 I'm with you. But when I, you know, in the last few weeks, whenever I have off-season conversations with GMs, like a lot of it's like Al Horford would fit great there.
Like the Knicks get bounced out.

Speaker 2 Well, Al Horford would fit pretty good in New York. San Antonio sitting down there with Wen Banyama.
Wouldn't you love to have a guy like Al Horford in your rotation as well?

Speaker 2 This probably like a third of the league, given what Al still has left and what Al's salary demands are going to be, that theoretically would be interested.

Speaker 1 So you're saying, like, the mid-level, like the $7 million or even higher?

Speaker 2 Higher, maybe $10, $12. I don't know.
Like, what did he make? 10 last year? Two years, 20 was his last contract? I could see him in play.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I am deep, deep down.

Speaker 1 You're triggering me now because deep down, I am a little worried about this because the team I'm worried about is the Lakers.

Speaker 2 That's

Speaker 1 an obvious, obvious Al Horford fit where they could just kind of grab him. I mean, there's some other ones, but I don't know.
He won a title in Boston. He's beloved in Boston.

Speaker 1 And it's like, you don't, he doesn't have to chase a ring because he won a ring, right?

Speaker 1 And if you're talking about difference between they could pay him two and a half million versus seven, whatever it is, like you're going to uproot. I don't know.
We'll see. But

Speaker 1 I don't think the team's going to be, I don't know. Let's go through.
I'm going to read you everybody in the East. And you tell me what teams are definitively better than the Celtics next year.

Speaker 1 Let's say there are no more trades and they keep Hauser. So we would say Cleveland, yes.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 We would say the Knicks, yes.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And Orlando, yes.

Speaker 2 Love the Orlando trade, yeah.

Speaker 1 Those three, I think we can both agree

Speaker 1 have better rosters and a chance for regular season success than the Celtics next year.

Speaker 2 I would agree. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Detroit.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think I would agree. All right.
So there's four.

Speaker 1 Then you, you, you, all of a sudden I'm in Indiana with no Halliburton, Giannis with no teammates.

Speaker 1 Miami, I don't even know what they're trying to do. The Hawks might be the biggest threat for the five seed out of anybody we're listing.
Toronto, give me a break.

Speaker 1 Philadelphia, I have no idea how many Embiid games I'm getting.

Speaker 1 I feel like the five seed is wide open in the East, which is more of a reflection of how gutted the East is.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and I look at Philly and we'll see what happens on draft night. I think there's a lot of potential moves in play in the next 24 hours for Philadelphia.

Speaker 2 If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston.

Speaker 2 Atlanta, if Borzingus can give you a billion.

Speaker 1 Can you just give me an if Embiid's healthy?

Speaker 2 I'm just saying. I'm giving an Eddie.

Speaker 2 I'm giving them benefit for the doubt here on this one. If Embiid's healthy, they're better.
than Boston.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Atlanta, if Borzingas gives you 65-plus games, they're better than Boston. So we're kind of in that same range there where I could see them anywhere from like eight to five.

Speaker 1 So they're getting Porzingis and Jalen Johnson back.

Speaker 2 I love Jalen Johnson. I want to take all the stock on Jalen Johnson.

Speaker 1 If you and I were the Atlanta conciliaries,

Speaker 1 I would be like, fucking go for it, man. You still have a $25 million trade exception that expires on July 7th.
Like,

Speaker 2 go for it.

Speaker 1 Go get Worman Powell from the Clippers. Like, let's go.
Like, go get, go get a real player who can play in a playoff series.

Speaker 1 You got Jalen Johnson coming back, so it's almost like you're signing a free agent. Reese is a year older.
You have Porzingis basically replacing Capella, but you also have a Kongwu.

Speaker 1 I like their team. I liked their team last year.
I felt like if Jalen Johnson did get hurt last year, I thought that would have been a really interesting round one team.

Speaker 2 I think Jalen Johnson, Jalen Johnson, to me, is one of,

Speaker 2 and amongst NBA people, he's not underrated, but like publicly, he's criminally underrated. Like every time I watch that guy play on TV or in person, he is outstanding.
And

Speaker 2 if he's healthy, he's going to be an all-star next year.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, Porzingis, Johnson, Trey,

Speaker 2 not a ton of defense with that group.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 with that $25 million exception, I think going for it is the right play. And I think that's their mindset too.

Speaker 2 Like the Porzingis trade, to me, signals that Atlanta is going to try in this conference, which is the right thing to do given what's sitting up at the top.

Speaker 1 Well, they also have the 13th pick in the draft that they got from Sacramento. So they still have the possibility of maybe there's one more move where they move backwards and pick up a veteran.

Speaker 1 I tried to talk myself into Atlanta saying yes to Hauser in the 28th for the number 13th, but I don't think that's enough.

Speaker 1 But I love Sam Hauser and I actually think that would be a good trade for Atlanta. So maybe consider that one Atlanta.

Speaker 2 The market is robust right now for Sam Hauser from what I've heard. I mean, he's starting that four-year $45 million.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, he's a 40-plus percent three-point shooter who's been on a championship team, who's got a very manageable contract. Like, there's a lot of teams that could use guys like that.

Speaker 2 And I don't know if Baylor Scheierman is Sam Hauser 2.0 or can replicate anything he does, but I know he's a lot cheaper.

Speaker 2 And I think that's going to be the priority for the Celtics with that particular spot in the lineup.

Speaker 1 I feel like you might get aggregated on Hoopsite now. Manix,

Speaker 1 Hauser trademarket, robust.

Speaker 2 It feels like a hot take, though. That feels like a very lukewarm take that the 26-year-old elite three-point shooter maybe can't guard that many guys, but can make a shot at 40% from three.

Speaker 2 That's well, and it's like

Speaker 1 the sneakiest.

Speaker 1 Wait, haven't you watched tape? Stop thinking you can challenge him and post-up dudes because he's actually like a half-decent defender and 101. on an island.
He's actually okay.

Speaker 1 I think the Pistons make a lot of sense for him. And I'm interested to see what they do because that's, you know, when we talk about the wide open east, if I'm the Pistons,

Speaker 1 I'm really looking at, hey, we might be one move. I would have, I would have kicked the tires hard on Durant.
We talked about that the other day on this podcast.

Speaker 1 Like, I just would have, I have Cade, who's one of the best 15 guys in the league. I have a young team.

Speaker 1 I have an identity. Like, what, can I improve that Tobias Harris spot and go up a level?

Speaker 1 Yeah, from a Celtic standpoint, the Jalen part will be really fun.

Speaker 1 The

Speaker 1 Pritchard-Simons together as a bat, like the Pritchard-Simons, Derek White, I don't know. I'm in on it.
I can't believe they were able to pull out those two trades.

Speaker 1 I thought Porzingis was going to be impossible.

Speaker 1 I just thought they were going to have to take a giant contract back because he's making 30. Like they needed.

Speaker 1 They basically needed the Nets to be involved somehow. And then the Nets were like, whoa, Terrence Maynard and another pick.
We already have four. All right, cool.

Speaker 2 So they did it.

Speaker 2 What are they doing? Yeah. What do you think the Nets are up to here? Because they're not accruing all these draft picks to just draft guys.

Speaker 2 Like that's when, when, when I was at the draft lottery, talking to people in Brooklyn and people that talked to Brooklyn, the most deflated team not to move up was the Brooklyn Nets because the Brooklyn Nets believed that a top four pick was going to put them in play for one of the bigger names out there.

Speaker 2 Now, obviously, Giannis was at the very top of their list. No idea, if Giannis, what's going to happen or how that's going to play out in the next few weeks.

Speaker 2 But all I know is that the Nets acquiring one-sixth of Thursday's draft is not so they can draft five guys. Like, that's just not, that's not what Sean Marks is looking to do here.

Speaker 2 I'm very curious to see what the next 24 hours look like for Brooklyn,

Speaker 2 if they have something else in mind or another deal in mind to use these picks for.

Speaker 1 Well, we think San Antonio is staying at two with Harper. I think that's locked in.

Speaker 1 Philly, I'm prepared for literally anything. You could give me any scenario, and I would sign up for it.
So if you told me Daryl feels like

Speaker 1 my model says we should take Ace Bailey, we don't even need to take him at three. He's going to be there at seven.
We'll trade back with Brooklyn or trade back to eight.

Speaker 1 He's still going to be there at eight and we'll pick up all these other picks and then I'll do weird Daryl stuff with them. You can talk me into that.

Speaker 1 You could talk me into anything with Charlotte because I don't know.

Speaker 2 Can I throw something about Charlotte? So, Charlotte, so this Ace Bailey thing is wild. Like,

Speaker 2 Ace Bailey kind of being navigated by an agent that doesn't have a ton of experience, not working out for anybody.

Speaker 2 I think my theory on this, on Ace Bailey, is that right or wrong,

Speaker 2 he or his team believe there's a team out there that he wants to go to that is going to trade up with Charlotte. Like, he's not working out for Philadelphia.
There's got to be a reason for that.

Speaker 2 He's not going to Utah.

Speaker 2 I don't think he wants to go to Charlotte. I think that Ace Bailey thinks that there's a team that's going to leap up, get that Charlotte pick, and he wants to play there.

Speaker 2 That's my theory on Ace Bailey.

Speaker 1 Team like the Brooklyn Nets?

Speaker 2 Maybe. Maybe.

Speaker 1 So Charlotte moves back four spots. They pick up a bunch of extra assets, which they need more than that fourth pick, I would argue.
Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because especially if

Speaker 1 Edgecombe goes third, which I think is the guy Charlotte wants,

Speaker 1 trying to decode all the what's bullshit, but what's actually real. And it really does seem like that's the guy they want.

Speaker 1 And maybe they're like, fuck it, then we'll move back.

Speaker 1 For Brooklyn, I feel like Ace Bailey's going to drop to eight. And I wouldn't trade up to get him because

Speaker 1 I think when you put the stink out like that, we saw it work with Saar last year. Like Saar did this to Atlanta.
He's like, nope, not even going.

Speaker 1 If you take me, buyer, beware. This does work.
When you have a pick that high and you have, usually if you're picking that high, your team's probably a mess to begin with, right?

Speaker 1 And it's like, oh, so who'd you take with this prime lottery pick?

Speaker 1 We took the guy who literally wouldn't fly to come work out with us, who refuses to take our calls and won't send us his medical records until the league mandated that he had to.

Speaker 1 That's our first pick.

Speaker 2 High fives, everybody.

Speaker 1 Like, nobody wants to do that.

Speaker 1 So this actually works i think it's it's smart but on the other hand it's possible that ace bailey is just a train wreck the stuff of the representation is pretty alarming like there's and there's a lot of stories that have been i think being passed around and people aren't really talking about them publicly but there's just it just seems like a train wreck it it it's not like this is being

Speaker 2 it's not like this is being orchestrated by like a bill duffy or yeah some rich paul or rich paul rich paul Yeah, here.

Speaker 1 I'm doing the chessboard here.

Speaker 2 It doesn't feel like chessboard type stuff.

Speaker 1 Checkers? What board game would you do?

Speaker 2 Shoots and ladders. I don't know.
Like whatever. I mean, it just feels like shoots and ladders.
It just feels very simple, very,

Speaker 2 very uneasy. The only thing I can think of, though, is that somebody's trying to get to four and they like the team that's trying to get to four that goes again.

Speaker 2 I think if he's at eight, Brooklyn's going to take him. Like all the stuff that's going on with Ace Bailey, he's a shot maker.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't know if he flames out and he doesn't have the mindset for it or the complete skill set to become a great player, but that guy can get you a bucket.

Speaker 2 Like, that's why those weird Durant comparisons, I can kind of see it. I can kind of see shades of it.

Speaker 2 And if he's sitting there at eight, I think Brooklyn's going to take him. I also don't think he gets past Washington.

Speaker 2 I think Washington would take a flyer on a guy like that with a high upside at number six.

Speaker 2 So I think at four is when this, well, three, it's going to get interesting because I don't know what Philadelphia Philadelphia is going to do either, but I think at four, it gets real interesting with respect to Ace Bailey.

Speaker 1 If Washington doesn't take him at six, I'm going to be disappointed.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know if it's the right pick for them. And it seems like the kind of guy they've, the type of

Speaker 1 kind of polarizing porter they've had in the past where it's usually like, oh man, that didn't work out.

Speaker 1 Brooklyn makes the most sense.

Speaker 1 That's his end game. But

Speaker 1 I think this is a great draft. I've really enjoyed enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed doing the research for it. I think it's really unpredictable.
You have Cooper at the top. It's so funny.

Speaker 1 Like, he goes and works out for Dallas and then the stories are going,

Speaker 1 Cooper Flag.

Speaker 1 He knocked everyone's socks off. People were blown away.
It's like, we can stop doing that with the Cooper Flag workouts. We get it.
He blows everyone away. He's amazing.

Speaker 1 He's fucking, you know, juggling three balls, beating everybody in drills. Like, we get it.

Speaker 2 He's amazing.

Speaker 1 And then two Harper is locked in, but then we get to three and it's like, I'm prepared for anything.

Speaker 2 Tradebacks,

Speaker 1 there's three guys I wouldn't be surprised if they took. I wouldn't be surprised if Daryl took Ace.
I know you wouldn't either. If he was just like, yeah, Ace has the highest upside.

Speaker 1 I think he'd be a superstar. Edgecombe, we think he's Dwayne Wade.
He just needs to figure out how to finish a layup. Knipple, perfect for the team we have.
We think Ambed's going to play 70 games.

Speaker 1 He fits in. He does this, this, and this.

Speaker 1 It's an awesome draft. Let's take a quick break and I have some more some more trade stuff to throw at you.
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Speaker 1 So, if you were the Atlanta Hawks,

Speaker 1 are you building this around Trey Young? You feel good about that?

Speaker 2 I don't feel good about it.

Speaker 2 I don't think that Trey Young can be the number one guy on a championship team.

Speaker 2 I do think Trey Young, as the number one guy guy in a conference that stinks can be the number one guy on an Eastern Conference championship team. I think they're in play next year.

Speaker 2 So I think that's the mindset that Atlanta probably has going into this season because it's not a, look, if they want to blow this whole thing up, they can do it next summer.

Speaker 2 You know, Porzingis is coming off the books. Yeah.
Young will have one less year left in his contract. You'll still have Jalen Johnson to build around long term.

Speaker 2 Like, this is kind of the perfect year to sort of go for it, see what you can get with that $25 million trade exception.

Speaker 2 See if there's some guy that fits, you know, either in the backcourt alongside Trey, four spot, I don't know, wherever they think is the right fit, and go for it this year.

Speaker 2 And if it doesn't work, screw it. Then next year,

Speaker 2 there'll be a market for Trey Young next year. Somebody's going to want to get him.
Like, I mean, nobody wants to sign with Washington. Maybe they take him on.

Speaker 2 Like, they absorb his contract into their books. Like, there's a lot of things you can do if you're Atlanta beyond this season.
Like, this, no matter what, they're not going to win a title.

Speaker 2 Like, I think we both can agree on that with this group. But you can.

Speaker 1 After Indiana, I'm not willing to agree on anything.

Speaker 2 Indiana won 15 playoff games. I know.
Indiana plays with just a I don't know. If you get guys around Trey Young that are tough like that, Neesmith, Siakam,

Speaker 2 you know, Nemhard, I don't see those guys in Atlanta. I don't see them.
Look at their depth chart. I don't see a ton of those guys.
I don't, I, I look, but I think in this

Speaker 2 landscape, I mean,

Speaker 2 you can do it. You can make a run with this group.
And if you can, great. Maybe you see, like, hey, we just one piece away or and then we'll add that guy in the offseason.

Speaker 2 Or, you know, you go into next summer and you blow the whole damn thing up. You trade Trey Young and you rebuild around a really good player and all-star in Jalen Johnson.

Speaker 2 I think it's all upside for the Hawks.

Speaker 1 We see it the same way. I think this is the official Trey Young audition year.

Speaker 1 What do you got?

Speaker 1 Here, we put a bunch of guys with blink who can protect you on defense. We have a little pick and pop threat now with Porzingis.
We also have a real center who can protect the rim.

Speaker 1 I don't know what they're going to do with 13th pick and that trade exception, but we assume there's one more really good guy coming. And it's like, let's see,

Speaker 1 we've created the type of team. I think what they have a chance to do is what we watched Indiana do with Halliburton, where they built a roster around a guy's specific skill set.

Speaker 1 In Trey's case, they can protect him on defense and they are surrounding him with shooters and length, which is kind of what you'd have to do.

Speaker 1 And Indiana,

Speaker 1 I'm still,

Speaker 1 you didn't go to game seven, did you? I did. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. I'm still reeling from

Speaker 1 just that whole thing. And then also that, you know, to come that close to winning a title, to have the first five minutes the way it went and then to realize, much like Celtic fans.

Speaker 1 last month where it's like, not only did we just get knocked out of the playoffs, but next year is now gone too. Like, it's, it was just so much.
I'm still digesting it.

Speaker 1 I can't even imagine what it was like to be there.

Speaker 2 I think that Oklahoma City has emerged as a top three crowd in the NBA. I think Boston's better.
I think New York's better, but I think Oklahoma City's right there.

Speaker 2 You make an argument for somebody else, fine, but I think Oklahoma City is right there

Speaker 2 in that three spot. I've never experienced a crowd that amped up.
just cut it, go completely silent the way that it did.

Speaker 2 Everybody in that moment knew exactly what happened based on how he moved, how he responded. I mean, players from both sides, crowd, media, everybody do.
I've never seen a

Speaker 2 reaction quite like that. When you had a crowd amped up to an 11, just going nuts, and then have that happen and everything just go completely silent.

Speaker 2 It was surreal, man, being there and seeing him go down like that. And then his reaction, he's banging his hand on the floor.

Speaker 2 And then you watch the replay on the monitor and you can see the calf buckle so you know right away exactly what it is.

Speaker 2 That was tough, that was real tough to watch in real time.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was thinking about it because we podcasted after that night, and I was thinking after about some stuff I wish I had thought of when we were doing it live because I was still like kind of gathering.

Speaker 1 It was just so incredible of a basketball situation and a life situation, it was hard to wrap your head around. I was thinking about, um,

Speaker 1 I think it was two, it was my first year I was writing for USPN or the second second year so it was like maybe 2002 playoffs when dirt got hurt and everybody was like he's got to suck it he was hurt in the playoffs i think it was against sacramento

Speaker 1 and it was so long ago i can't remember but he was hurt and cuban didn't want to bring him back in and he wanted him to play hurt and his whole thing was like dirt's going to be our guy for a long time it's not worth it to play him in this playoff series.

Speaker 1 And I remember writing, I think I wrote in my piece, like, that's crazy. If you have a chance for the title, you have to go it.
And as I've gotten older, I feel completely differently about it.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, obviously he was hurt. Obviously, they shot him up so he could play, right? And then you go out and

Speaker 1 you tell the person,

Speaker 1 hey, man, you know, be careful. Don't, you're, you're injured.
Just be careful how you do this. But what happens? You hit a couple threes, the adrenaline's rising.

Speaker 1 You know, he's going in a timeout and you just kind of forget you're hurt, but he was hurt. And then he made it worse.
And now they really screwed up their team. And

Speaker 1 I don't know. It's just that Cube and Dirk decision.
I was, I was thinking about that: about,

Speaker 1 do you play him? If you play him, are you more careful? Like, and Halliburton's like, I have no regrets. It was game seven.
We had a chance to win the title, but

Speaker 1 I don't know. Something still doesn't sit right with it, with me.

Speaker 2 I agree. It's like that old, that old parable where the guy drowns and he blames God for for

Speaker 2 not saving him. It's like

Speaker 2 we have a lot of evidence over the last five years that show that these types of calf injuries lead to a catastrophic injury like an Achilles tear.

Speaker 2 The Durant situation, I think Dame's injury was kind of some of that. Him coming back from deep vein thrombosis and being thrust right back into a high pressure, high-octane situation.

Speaker 2 Like we've got the evidence. It's out there.
It's, you can just point to it and say, this is the kind of stuff that not only can happen, but, but does happen at a frequently alarming weight rate.

Speaker 2 And I don't know what you tell, like

Speaker 2 Rick Carlisle, you know, I was at all those games and all the pregame stuff. And Rick Carlisle, every single pregame was like, we're watching him, we're watching him, we're watching him.

Speaker 2 So obviously they're probably telling, and even Halliburton, I think after game five, maybe, like, somebody asked him, like, have you been told that there's not a high risk of injury?

Speaker 2 He's like, no, I have not been told that. Like, he knew that something was possible, you know, there.

Speaker 2 But I don't know how you tell a guy in game seven of the NBA Finals, whether or not he made three of the first five shots that he took, three threes.

Speaker 2 I don't know how you tell a guy going in, like, go at 80%. Like, it's impossible to tell a guy.

Speaker 1 Just be, yeah, just be careful, be careful, be careful. You kind of can't do that because he was careful in game six.
He wasn't that good.

Speaker 2 Unless you're going to, you know, camp him out in the corner and have him be a decoy. then

Speaker 2 this this was always a potential mission.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's what they should have done.

Speaker 2 I mean, they kind of did that. They kind of did that for, what was it, game six, for a lot of game six, I think it was.
He was kind of hanging on the perimeter, just lingering around.

Speaker 2 Yeah, maybe they should have gone that route, but like you're never going to be able to tell a guy of that caliber, like, hey, man, this could happen. Don't push off as hard.

Speaker 2 Don't break to the basket if you see an opening. Like, it's too hard to have a guy compartmentalize that stuff.

Speaker 1 I'm still wrapping my head around it. I've never seen that.
But who do you blame?

Speaker 2 Do you like like I could?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's not like I don't blame anybody because it's obviously his choice. He wants to play.

Speaker 1 It's no different than like we both love boxing and we love UFC and people make decisions with their bodies and their heads. And we watch it over and over again.

Speaker 1 And you can't be like, you dummy, you shouldn't have played. Obviously, he wanted to play.
It was super risky.

Speaker 1 But I've never, I mean, to come that close, when you think of like the two sliding doors of

Speaker 1 this guy was on pace to be the hero of that game.

Speaker 1 And then, in at the seven, six minute mark, whatever it was, all of a sudden he's done for a year. Like,

Speaker 1 I've never seen anything like that. And the Tatum thing was horrible when that happened.
I mean, that was one of the more traumatic.

Speaker 1 We've had two of the most traumatic NBA injuries we've ever had in the span of a month. And nobody's been able to explain this Achilles thing.

Speaker 1 I was texting with Doc about it, and I was like, nobody had these.

Speaker 1 These were old guys' injuries. These are injuries like my uncle Bob started playing pickleball and he blew out his Achilles.
Like, these don't happen to people in their primes.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we were saying, I was like, when you were playing,

Speaker 1 I was saying this to Doc, like, you know, you just play pickup in the summer, right?

Speaker 1 And it's, you weren't doing these like 365 days a year, all this training and practicing Eurosteps and footwork. And maybe it's too much.

Speaker 1 Like, maybe they really have to reevaluate all the stuff they're doing. Doc was saying, we just played pickup every day on concrete in 100-degree weather and then our knees went.

Speaker 1 So in in the old days, the knees went, and now it feels like it's the below the knees is starting to go.

Speaker 1 And I don't think it's a coincidence that two of the best guys who still were arrow pointing up for their careers have this injury that nobody had before recently.

Speaker 2 Is there so I've texted a few medical people, you know, team trainers, whatnot for theory. It's all theory at this point, but

Speaker 2 is there anything to the idea that maybe now more than ever, these guys are just basketball players. Like they're, they're not, they're not the special.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you grow up, you know, a lot of guys you cover back in the day, they were football players, they were, you know, hockey players if they grew up in the Northeast, like they were playing other sports.

Speaker 2 Nowadays, it's, it's straight basketball. Like Cooper Flag is actually an example.
I spent the better part of a couple of weeks around him.

Speaker 1 Did he blow you away?

Speaker 2 Him personally, no, no. Okay.
You know, I mean, the greatest, like he he was on the cover of the magazine, the greatest Cooper Flag supporter is Scal.

Speaker 2 Like, he's out of his mind in support of this guy. He thinks he's like LeBron.
Like, this is, you know.

Speaker 1 He may have to settle down a tad.

Speaker 2 You do, you, you put, you put together your Mount Rushmore tomorrow, like, in, or day one of the season. Scal's going to have Cooper Flag on the top of that, on that Mount Rushmore.

Speaker 2 But he's like, to this point, like, he grew up, you know, in first grade, second grade. He was a great football player.
You know, this is why they consider a prodigy. Great at everything.
Football,

Speaker 2 played soccer, played baseball, but just stopped after, I think, second or third grade, whenever it was, and then just focused entirely on basketball.

Speaker 2 That's what a lot of these guys, Jason Tatum, when he got to a young age, you know, got with Drew Hanlon when he was young and started working on skills, just this.

Speaker 2 I wonder if there's anything to the singular focus on the game where you're not kind of, you know, doing other things that might protect your body from these types of injuries.

Speaker 2 Again, it's all theoretical, but this kind of came up with a couple of training people that I've talked to.

Speaker 1 But it's worth looking into more if you're the nba like having having kobe tear his achilles in the back end of his career is one thing having you know an alpha an mvp candidate like tatum the star of the postseason like haliburton like this is something that that they need to look at yeah kobe who was playing those 48 minute games during that stretch right and he was at the end of his career and he pushed it too far and it made sense it doesn't these the equipment's too good the training stuff's too good the medicines to everything's too good for to have this injury.

Speaker 1 I don't really fully understand it. And I also don't understand why it's not happening in other sports, right? Like it's not happening in tennis.

Speaker 1 You know, it's not, I think Tiger Tor is Achilles in golf, but it's just

Speaker 1 anyway, that was, that was quite a tangent we just did. This episode is brought to you by Built.
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What players?

Speaker 1 So you're obviously texting a million people and we're all sifting through the same bullshit,

Speaker 1 not knowing what's real and not real. And then anytime a trade happens, it's like, that's a trade.
Like, I thought Drew was going to Dallas or Phoenix. I really did.

Speaker 1 And I would have bet on Dallas. I would have bet.
I thought Dallas was like minus 200 for a Drew home. I thought it was going to be two pieces.

Speaker 1 One gets rerouted to Brooklyn or Atlanta, wherever, and their trade exception. Boston keeps the other piece and and Dallas gets through.

Speaker 1 Portland comes, and then it's like, oh, yeah, they've loved him the whole time. It's like, really? I didn't hear that once.

Speaker 1 Is there a player that you're hearing floated around a name that has surprised you as we are now 24 hours away from the draft? Is there somebody where you're like, whoa, that guy?

Speaker 2 I don't know if it's a surprise. Well,

Speaker 2 New Orleans is very much open for business. Zion, not particularly, but they're a team that is determined to shake things up.
Like, could Herb Jones be available in New Orleans?

Speaker 2 I mean, that's a small name, but

Speaker 2 I think that's something interesting.

Speaker 2 Again, I don't know what Philadelphia is going to do here.

Speaker 2 Are they,

Speaker 2 do they just sit on that draft pick and take it? Do they try to package it? Is Paul George in play? You know, I've heard some of that over the last

Speaker 2 24 hours or so that they could be looking to trade back with Paul George. Yeah, to do something there.

Speaker 2 Yeah, those the Philly stuff is what I've been most looking at. I think the Charlotte thing is the next one.
I think Charlotte is very open for business at number four to move down.

Speaker 2 And I think there's a team that's going to be in play that tries to move up and take and take that Charlotte spot.

Speaker 1 I'm intrigued by the Quippers, who don't seem like they have a lot going on, but

Speaker 1 also don't seem to be super happy with their roster. Just

Speaker 1 like, what, where's the evidence they're going to be better this year than, or this coming year than they were?

Speaker 1 And I thought they were right there with some of these other teams, but I also think they're going to be a year older next year.

Speaker 1 I'm just, they've been quiet, which makes me suspicious. And then the team I cannot figure out for the life of me is Miami.
Because I've heard they didn't offer anything for Durant.

Speaker 1 If you talk to some different like NBA team people,

Speaker 1 they're like, we heard the Miami thing was like close to being done and something happened. I don't know what to believe anymore.
And I don't know what Miami's up to. And,

Speaker 1 you know, usually they're star hunting right around now and they've been quiet too. And I don't know,

Speaker 1 are they going to zag and go the other way? I don't know.

Speaker 2 The Miami part of it. From what I heard after the deal got done was, you know, Khalil Ware was off the table.
And really the only thing that was on the table was

Speaker 2 Wiggins, some contract filler, a little bit of draft capital, nothing at all. What the fuck? That's like

Speaker 1 nothing. Which means they didn't really want him.

Speaker 2 But, Bill, I don't know who, like, besides Houston, who really wanted him this offseason? I think the Clippers, you mentioned them, I think they were interested.

Speaker 2 They just don't have anything to really offer that Phoenix might be looking for.

Speaker 2 San Antonio, San Antonio was clear.

Speaker 1 There was some.

Speaker 1 I don't know if the Harden tires were kicked.

Speaker 2 Oh, no.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 That wouldn't be. That would be bad.

Speaker 1 It didn't work. But I'll put it this way.

Speaker 1 I don't think Harden's game seven went over great.

Speaker 2 You think?

Speaker 1 I don't think it went over great with literally anybody on the Clippers. So, and, but I also don't think there's a market for him.

Speaker 1 But if we were talking about like most shocking name that you could see getting traded in the next week that isn't actually shocking, he would be on my list. I just don't know who he'd be trading for.

Speaker 2 I mean, there was no market for him last offseason, and the Clippers gave him a deal that he never would have gotten anywhere else. Like that was, I never understood that deal at the time.

Speaker 2 I don't think the Clippers want to pay Norman Powell long term either.

Speaker 2 Had a great year last year, but has he plateaued as a player? Is that going to be a, if they give him money, is that going to be a contract they're trying to get off of in two years?

Speaker 2 I think they have that mindset.

Speaker 2 Just the Durant stuff, like,

Speaker 2 I've been riding Houston since last February because I knew from being around the Rockets how much Emay liked him and how much Durant respected Emay from the Brooklyn days and the USA basketball days and how well the fit worked.

Speaker 2 Like I went down there in February, March to do something on Amen.

Speaker 2 And like even then, like Raphael Stone was, you know, on and off the record was like, we're not doing anything. Like we're, we're trying to see what this team looks like in the playoffs.

Speaker 2 And they got, they got their look. They got their look.
Jalen Green's not the guy. Jalen Green is never going to be the guy.

Speaker 2 So now they go out and maybe it's not a round peg, round hole type of fit, getting the age of Durant, but I believe that Kevin Durant is still capable of being like one of the best scorers in the NBA for 65-plus games in a season.

Speaker 2 And I think, given what I saw from that team in the playoffs last year, that's exactly who they need.

Speaker 1 Especially in the playoffs themselves. 100%.
That's what they're doing.

Speaker 2 You replace Kevin Durant, healthy Kevin Durant, with you swap out Jalen Green. They beat Golden State in the first round.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't know what the ceiling is after that, but they beat Golden State in the first round.

Speaker 2 I think the Rockets, who are going to get real organic growth from their young guys next year, starting with Thompson, who I think is an absolute monster waiting to break out.

Speaker 2 I think they're now in play to win the Western Conference.

Speaker 2 And if I was looking at the biggest threats to Oklahoma City next year, without knowing exactly what Denver is going to look like, I would say Houston's at the top of that list.

Speaker 1 We agree. And I also,

Speaker 1 what's so interesting about that trade, I wish I had said this Sunday when we talked about it. It feels like they still have a trade left.
They were able to keep enough assets to do another move.

Speaker 1 Like, I don't think the Celtics are trading Jalen, and I hope they don't. But if they did trade Jalen, weirdly Houston is still the best home for him.

Speaker 1 They'd have to put the Van Bleed thing in it to make it work. And I think Tara Eason would have to be in it.
But with all the picks they have,

Speaker 1 there's a move now, a little reminiscent. We've seen this in years.

Speaker 1 Like the 07 to 08 Celtex was the best example of like, you do this one move and then that opens the door for the second move makes more sense, right? Do the Ray Allen trade.

Speaker 1 Now KG trade makes more sense than it did if it was just going to be KG and Paul.

Speaker 1 I just, I can't count out Jalen and Houston, even though I don't want Boston to trade Jalen. I don't think they're going to.

Speaker 2 I don't know that Houston has enough to get Boston's attention there. Like the Van Vliet contract and what else? Like, you want to take on the Sun's picks in 27, 29?

Speaker 2 Like, you want, I mean, that, I don't know how Jalen's going to be.

Speaker 1 It would basically be all the basically all the picks and Eason and Van Vleet's contract. You're right.
It probably isn't enough, but

Speaker 2 it's enough for somebody and it keeps them in the

Speaker 1 Giannis area too in January, February if that goes bad.

Speaker 2 I thought San Antonio was the most, and I said this

Speaker 2 a couple of weeks ago. I thought San Antonio was the most interesting team for Jalen if they decided to go that direction.
I think still are. Still are.

Speaker 2 But the Spurs maybe just keeping their powder dry in case the Giannis thing just bursts and they can make a play there. But if that's not on the table,

Speaker 2 they can very easily put together a package that makes a lot of sense for both sides. To bring it full circle to Boston though, I like that

Speaker 2 it sure seems like they're not jettisoning Jalen here. Like that, I think was a thought, you know, as they were trying to figure out what to do with this team moving forward.

Speaker 2 But I like that they're not dumping this guy because it's hard to get two guys like Tatum and Brown. Like it's hard to get two guys that you know can win together.
on a championship level.

Speaker 2 And I like that they're keeping him intact, keeping him there, and presumably going to keep him as part of a two or three person core that they're going to build around in the summer of 2026.

Speaker 2 I just think that's the right move for them to make. And look, teams were calling about Jalen, several of them calling to see the availability.

Speaker 1 It was a hot market for him in white. There's no question.

Speaker 2 No question. But the Celtics were pretty firm that,

Speaker 2 you know, yeah, next year may suck for them. You know, it may, it may even be a lottery year, which I don't think would disappoint too many people given that they have their pick.

Speaker 2 It may be bad, but 2026, we're back. Like, you know, y'all must have forgot

Speaker 2 with us in the fall of 2026 when Tatum comes back from that injury. That's that to me is what their mindset is.

Speaker 1 You know, who's not tanking? Joe Missoula, who's this absolute psycho.

Speaker 2 Oh, isn't this fascinating? I'm glad we brought that to you.

Speaker 1 This would be an absolute psychology experiment watching him

Speaker 1 intentionally lose games and play lineups that would,

Speaker 1 there's just no way. I don't see it.

Speaker 1 That's why I think that I think it's more likely they win 48 to 50 games than 32 to 35 games but it may be inescapable that they're they're not that good that there may be a 500 type of team I'm fascinated to see how Joe Missoula handles mediocrity like does he like start plucking his eyebrows like after like a three-game losing streak no they're gonna we put him on like meds I think he's gonna have to be sedated like when like like with uh with when you have little kids and you you put them on an airplane and you just have to to make sure like that yeah hey will you take this benadryl i need you i need to i need to knock you out for a second i don't think he'll be able to handle it i mean he takes losses so hard we saw that during the last couple of seasons

Speaker 1 maybe he just leaves the team in january it's like joe's gonna go learn learn a next level of muay thai in thailand for the next four months and we'll bring him back in june just walking around challenging guys to muay thai fights across europe and africa like i could i could see that i could see that.

Speaker 2 It'll be interesting to see how he deals with it because

Speaker 2 this will be new.

Speaker 1 Can we say one thing on Jalen Brown? Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think it'd be a huge mistake to trade him unless it was like for 200 cents in the dollar.

Speaker 1 And especially after what the Red Sox did, not to compare the same situation with Mookie because that was different. They just didn't want to pay him and they're fucking assholes.

Speaker 1 I just, I want to see Brown and Tatum together. And I think Jalen's like really important in the city.
Like he really gives a shit shit about the right things.

Speaker 1 And I don't think you can lose guys like that if you don't have to. Like, nobody expects them to win the title next year.

Speaker 1 The salaries are going to be nuts, but they're going to be able to reset this whole apron thing and then make another three-year run. And I just don't see it.
I was actually looking at the OKC,

Speaker 1 trying to figure out when they get screwed, because this is one of the legacies of this Celtics run.

Speaker 1 And then you think, like, OKC, like, oh, they're so positioned. And they are in a lot of ways, right? They're young, they have draft picks, they have flexibility, but then they really don't.

Speaker 1 When we get to the 27, 28 season, I was trying to map out if they give Chet and Jalen Williams the, you know, the contract extensions, which would be

Speaker 1 five for 247,

Speaker 1 right?

Speaker 1 And nobody takes less anymore. Like, Chet's like, I want to help the team.
I'll do five for 200. Like, he's going to take the 247.

Speaker 1 So that would kick in in the 26-27 season. And Shay's Supermax really kicks in for the 27-28 season.

Speaker 1 All of a sudden, he'd be making $65.5 million a year. And Chet and J-Dub

Speaker 1 would be making $46 and $46. So just for those three guys,

Speaker 1 you're looking at $158 million for three guys. And the second apron for that year would be around $230.

Speaker 2 Yeah, cap will go up. Yeah, those numbers.

Speaker 1 I was trying to factor in the cap because the cap goes up 10% max every year and the apron's tied to that. So they'd have about 70 million left for the rest of their roster after those three guys.

Speaker 1 And the point is the NBA has created this league now where even if you do everything correctly, you make all the right trades, all the right draft picks, you just fucking nail every step,

Speaker 1 you're still fucked like three years later. And the Celtics are the latest example.
We're seeing Denver now that they can't even build around. Yeah, I want to talk about that in a second.

Speaker 1 But I just think when I wish I had said this on Sunday night, when we talk about like, oh, they're going to own the rest of the the decade.

Speaker 1 It's like, I think we're talking three, four-year windows for anybody because it's too hard after that.

Speaker 2 Yeah. They're, look, they're more equipped than any team in the last, what, five, six years to have sustained success.

Speaker 2 I mean, Milwaukee, they didn't have it in part because they went all in to get a guy like Holiday and cost themselves some picks. And then they moved.

Speaker 1 And they traded Drew assets too.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 they missed like on these picks, though. Like, that's a big part of it, too.
Like, the guys they drafted can't play.

Speaker 2 Um, Denver, kind of the same thing, not as far as giving away draft capital, but when the veterans got too expensive for that team, and maybe they should have spent a little more money, especially on a guy like KCP, um, their young players were not ready to step in and play.

Speaker 1 Well, and then they did the Zeke Najee extension, they extended Porter to the point that he's untradeable, making $40 million a year.

Speaker 2 Like, that felt

Speaker 2 like a Walmart deal there. That was a

Speaker 2 good deal for that was a bad one.

Speaker 2 Oklahoma City, to me, though, is a little bit different. And you know this, but like

Speaker 2 the way that the contracts are set up over the next three years help them navigate the books. And I'm talking about the team options.
Like there are a lot of team options.

Speaker 2 You look at those books, Bill.

Speaker 2 That doesn't happen in today's day.

Speaker 2 Hardenstein's got a team option next summer. Isaiah Joe, I think, has a team option

Speaker 2 the year after that. Lou Dort

Speaker 1 does as well.

Speaker 2 Another one there.

Speaker 2 Like you can either let these guys go and shave that money off your books and get underneath one of those aprons, or you can convince someone like Hartenstein to, you know, take a little bit less to stick around and be part of maybe something he likes being a part of.

Speaker 2 Dort, I think, might be different. I think there's going to be a big market for Dort next summer if he's a free agent.

Speaker 2 I think he's a great player, but you've got Kaysen Wallace looking to step in. And look, even next year, like I did a little

Speaker 2 reporting, Bill, around young Nikola Topich during the finals.

Speaker 2 A lot of Oklahoma City excitement about Nikola Topich. A lot of guys that have been scrimmaging with him.

Speaker 2 You know, Kendrick Williams talked to me for a while about him. Dagnal, big fan of Nikola Topich.
Like,

Speaker 2 it's not an obvious path, but if they can just get these guys to hit, if they can get Topich to become part of their top eight or nine as early as next season, if they can get Kaysen Wallace to be good enough to step in and replace Lou Dort down the line, if they can hit on one or two of these next, what is it, seven picks right now in the next four years of the draft, they can just hit on these guys,

Speaker 2 they got a chance here to do what all those other teams we just mentioned have not done. So I'm a little bit optimistic, Mundang.

Speaker 2 Us Monday, yes, that's another guy that, you know,

Speaker 2 they have guys. They have guys that, you know, they're not going to step into your top three or four, but they don't need them to do that.
They need guys between four and eight to be consistent.

Speaker 2 I think they've got more potential than any team of the last, in the last five, six years to have that.

Speaker 1 We 100% agree. If any team is going to pull Topich Island, by the way, I'll say this on your show.

Speaker 2 I want all the real estate on Topich Island. I'm in too.

Speaker 2 I'll get a condo. I'll get in right after.

Speaker 1 Look it up.

Speaker 2 You get a condo.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I agree with everything you just said. I'm talking three years from now.

Speaker 1 Here's the counter.

Speaker 1 And did you, I didn't, you didn't go to Indiana, right, for three and four?

Speaker 2 I did, yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, I didn't, somehow I didn't see you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Dort and Crusoe won game four, and that was the game they needed to win this series. And the problem with all of this is you still need guys like that.

Speaker 1 So it's like, oh, yeah, Wallace will praise Lou Dort. It's like, Willie, Lou Dort was fucking awesome in that game four, and so was Caruso.

Speaker 1 And it's like, and you think about like the Celtics in 24, like Drew Holiday.

Speaker 1 in the Indiana series, like some of the stuff he was doing, the Porzingas, the boost he was, you just lose that and the series can tilt in the wrong way.

Speaker 1 And I honestly think if Indy wins game four, that series is done in six. I really believe it.
I think Indy would have finished the series.

Speaker 1 I think there was this moment in time in that second half where they had the series and they just couldn't close it. So we'll see if they can do it.

Speaker 1 They have to keep hitting on the Topich types of like whoever like they had, they take like they can keep replenishing that Dort Caruso spot, maybe. What did you think of the Cronky thing today?

Speaker 1 I got a lot of texts about that one today. Cronky just,

Speaker 1 he's like, yeah, we basically opened the door for we might have to trade Jokic if he doesn't want to sign an extension.

Speaker 1 It was the most needless media story I've ever seen, which makes it think, makes me think it was intentional.

Speaker 1 I just don't think you make a mistake like that in a press conference when all of these guys are trained to just measure your words, say things carefully. I don't think it was an accident.

Speaker 1 I really don't.

Speaker 2 I haven't, I've read the quote. I haven't watched the quote, and I always want to watch it first just to make sure to understand fully the context.

Speaker 2 But the right answer for any question about Nikola Yokic is: we're building around him forever. We want a statue of him in front of the building.
That's it. That's all stopped.

Speaker 1 He's never playing anywhere else. He's our guy.

Speaker 2 Him saying it.

Speaker 2 The word trade should never wind up in the same three sentences, within three sentences of Nikolai Yokic, ever.

Speaker 1 But the way he framed it was like,

Speaker 1 it made me think, and there's always been this stuff floating around, who knows if it's true, but it made me wonder if they think he wants to be there for the rest of his career or not.

Speaker 1 The way it was, there was something weird about the way he said it that made me think they're nervous. That if anybody's just going to be like, I'll see you guys later, I'm going to go over here now.

Speaker 1 Like, who knows? Who knows with that dude?

Speaker 1 I don't know. I thought, I just thought it was a notable moment.

Speaker 1 Sometimes in the NBA, there would be these little press conference moments or something said in a locker room or just some sort of Ted Bit where you go, huh, that kind of came out of nowhere.

Speaker 1 What did that mean? So I'm just, I'm noting it.

Speaker 2 Don't you think that, don't you think that Jokic to me is more likely to just decide at the end of his next contract that he's not going to play anymore?

Speaker 2 Like, I'm just going to go back to Serbia and race horses and I've made enough money and I don't want to train like this anymore.

Speaker 2 Like that, that, to me, that's always been like something you should be, people should be wary about with Jokic.

Speaker 2 Like everybody says like he's got the kind of game that could, that's going to age really well and it probably will. But I don't see him at like age 39, like pulling like an Arvetis Sabonis.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't see him, I just don't see him playing until the wheels come off. I think he's got a clock in his head for exactly how long he wants to play.
But regardless,

Speaker 1 I've heard this theory that he's really likely. This was going around like a year ago.
If anyone's likely to just be like, I'll see you guys later. Thanks for everything.
It's him.

Speaker 1 I don't believe it. That dude's too competitive.

Speaker 1 And you've been to some of these playoff games when he's really locked in. He's a maniac.
I don't think you're going to be like, all right, I'm just going to play in a shitty league now.

Speaker 1 I think that guy wants to, you know, what he did against OKC with the supporting cast he had. especially as we saw what happened with this OKC team.

Speaker 1 Pretty crazy. This episode is brought to you by Apple Watch.
Real talk for a second. You think you're crushing it with sleep?

Speaker 2 You're getting eight hours.

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Speaker 1 iPhone 11 or later required. This episode is brought to you by Black Friday Game Day on Prime.
It's Bill Simmons, Black Friday Game Day coming to Prime, and it will be an epic day of live sports.

Speaker 1 Black Friday football at the center of it all with the Chicago Bears taking on the Philadelphia Eagles at 3 p.m. Eastern.
This might be an actual round one playoff game.

Speaker 1 That's followed by the final night at Emirates NBA Cup group play

Speaker 1 and a doubleheader starting with the Bucks and Knicks at 7 p.m., Giannis in New York again, and the Mavericks and Lakers at 10 p.m. Boy, I wish those two teams had a history.

Speaker 1 The whole day starts with the return of the Capital One Skins game as four league PGA golfers face off with $4 million in the line.

Speaker 1 Black Friday game day tees off with the Capital One Skins game at 9 a.m. Eastern before the Big Bears Eagles football game at 3 p.m.

Speaker 1 And it all culminates with a double dose of Emirates NBA Cup action featuring Bucks Knicks at 7 p.m. and Mavs Lakers at 10 p.m.
only on Prime. What else?

Speaker 1 Did we have anything else we need to hit before we go? I mean, I want to talk boxing at the tail end, but any other NBA storylines you're excited about or no?

Speaker 2 I think that's, yeah, that's here. Here's only throw at you.

Speaker 2 The NBA storyline that might not be applicable now, but could be a year from now, because I think this is the potential biggest free agent that could be out there. Sam Presty in Oklahoma City.

Speaker 2 Like, we're going to get two expansion teams probably in the next three years. I think the NBA is going to step on the gas with the expansion now that the Lakers sold for $10 billion.

Speaker 1 You know who's roadblocking them right now? James Dolan.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 He's got a little cabal of anti-expansion owners that he's trying to just, just to.

Speaker 1 Because he doesn't want it. He doesn't want to share the media rights.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but James Dolan doesn't want to share anything.

Speaker 2 He votes no at every single board of governors meeting. Yes, he does.
Go back and look at some of these meetings. Like, how many of them are 29 to 1?

Speaker 2 Like, he sends his concigliary in because he doesn't really go to vote.

Speaker 1 I think he has a couple of people this time, though.

Speaker 2 I don't want this expansion.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think this expansion thing is

Speaker 1 a little more complicated than people are giving it credit for.

Speaker 2 It might be, but it's not enough. Like, how many do you need to expand? Is it two-thirds that

Speaker 1 I thought it was three-fourths, but it's not.

Speaker 2 Three-fourths, maybe. Either way, I don't think that Dolan has enough to block.

Speaker 2 As many as that may be out there that quietly don't want it, I think there's a lot that very publicly. But can you imagine?

Speaker 1 People are like, yeah, I'm in the Dolan block.

Speaker 1 Dolan's leading the way. I'm on his side with it.
Can you imagine aligning with that?

Speaker 1 I'm taking the expansion fee anyway.

Speaker 2 But on the expansion side,

Speaker 2 let's just assume Vegas and Seattle. Everybody believes that's how it's going to play out.

Speaker 2 If you're the new Sonics,

Speaker 2 what's Sam Presti worth to you? Peace of the team. If you're a piece of the team.

Speaker 1 2% of the team. 1%, whatever.

Speaker 2 Same thing with the Vegas gambler, whatever the hell they're going to be called.

Speaker 2 Worth the exact same to me, I think.

Speaker 1 Seattle's better, though, because

Speaker 1 that's the, we lost this guy to Oklahoma City. Now we brought him back to be our architect.

Speaker 2 He was 29 when he came here. He's 49 when he's coming back, and he's going to build this team the way, you know, it's prophecy fulfilled, all that stuff.

Speaker 2 I don't know that Sam is looking to leave Oklahoma, but he's been there a very long time. And he's not only won them a championship, which is the priority, but he's set them up.

Speaker 2 And presumably a Rob Hennigan, who would replace him, who hasn't been seen much in the last 10 years, but is his lieutenant there. He's got it set up.
So there's a ascension there.

Speaker 2 And look, I've been saying at the time, and I know you knew it too, like Sam, when Boston was open before Brad Stevens got it, like Sam was interested. Sam was interested in that job.

Speaker 1 But the funny thing was Boston really wasn't open. I mean, that was one of the things is like, we went from Danny to Brad.
They had a Brad coaching situation and a big contract for him.

Speaker 1 They had Danny ready to, and it just,

Speaker 1 I don't think Presty, did he ever get to throw his hat in the ring?

Speaker 2 I don't think he did. But externally, nobody, I don't think externally people knew it was going to be that clean an ascension.
I think people on the outside thought there might be,

Speaker 2 it might be an open job. And I think when it was thought that way, there was some, I think there was a true background.

Speaker 1 Presty, Massachusetts, went to Emerson. Like dream dream was to work for the Celtics, and just never happened.

Speaker 2 Still hangs out in New England in the summertime with his family. Like, still does all that.
I'm just saying, like,

Speaker 2 he wouldn't have any reason to feel bad about leaving Oklahoma City. He helped win them a championship, and he built a winner that can be there sustainable for the next three or four years.

Speaker 2 The chance to do something like build a team from scratch for a guy like Sam Presty, who has built two,

Speaker 2 you know, a title contender back in 2012 with the peak of the Durant Harden Westbrook years, and a title winner that may have won multiple championships by the time his, quote, free agency comes up.

Speaker 2 I just think that's something to watch. I think that whatever two teams get the expansion rights, I think he is going to be someone that's on their radar.

Speaker 2 And I don't think there's any price probably too high

Speaker 2 for getting a guy like Sam Presti to run your team.

Speaker 1 Mannix, you've done it again. It's a great call.
He's accomplished his job. He won the action movie.
He saved everybody in the burning building. Now, if he leaves, you couldn't be mad about it.

Speaker 1 There's also like if he left, like, I don't think expansion is going to be a couple years from now.

Speaker 1 That's right around the time maybe you'd want to get away from this OKC thing, but he had an incredible run. If I'm Seattle, I guess the precedence would be like Pat Riley in Miami 30 years ago.

Speaker 1 And they brought him in. He got a little taste of the team.

Speaker 1 the whole thing.

Speaker 1 All right. Well, we'll see what happens in the draft.
Let's do boxing really quick, though. Casual boxing fan, Bill, is here.

Speaker 2 Love it. Big fight, Bill.

Speaker 1 Big fight, Bill, who didn't even know that you were announcing one of the Paul brothers this weekend in Anaheim. But who's he? It's Jake Paul.
Who's he fighting this weekend?

Speaker 2 He is fighting Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.,

Speaker 2 who

Speaker 2 a lifetime ago was. the middleweight champion of the world has fallen on some hard times as of late young chavez jr has had some documented drug and alcohol problems.

Speaker 2 He actually lost to Anderson Silva in a boxing match, which was not a good look a couple of years ago, but he's got a big name and he's got a decent following and there's a lot of Mexicans on the undercard.

Speaker 2 So this is going to be an interesting arena for Jake Paul on Saturday.

Speaker 1 Okay. What's our big fight of the summer? What are we looking forward to?

Speaker 2 Usik Dubois, too, is the most interesting right now.

Speaker 2 Dubois knocked out by Usik 2023, like almost, it'll be almost to the day of the month when he got knocked out by Usuk, and he's back in with him. But Dubois has changed a lot over the last two years.

Speaker 2 I mean, he has gotten like a heart and confidence transplant.

Speaker 2 Like he gets with a new trainer and Don Charles, who's a very, very vocal guy, as much about, you know, motivation, kind of Mickey-esque as he is about tactics.

Speaker 2 And he's helped him put together a run that includes Jarrell Miller, Philip Herkovich, and everybody saw the Anthony Joshua knockout.

Speaker 2 Like that was the crowning achievement and the title-winning win for

Speaker 2 Dubois. Now he gets another crack at Usik, who just continues to be an all-time great, doesn't show any signs of slowing down.

Speaker 2 But I think, you know, if this fight was made a year, year and a half ago, it wouldn't have interested me at all. The fact that it's happening now after the AJ win, I think it's really interesting.

Speaker 2 There's gonna be like 80,000 fans in Wembley Stadium for that fight. And I think

Speaker 2 it's an interesting fight now that Dubois has been on this run.

Speaker 1 I can't wait because nothing is more fun than throwing Usik in a parlay with other sports. And he's just the most reliable leg every time.
Just keep betting on him until he loses.

Speaker 1 I'm already sewing the positive on Usik fights.

Speaker 1 Everything's gravy from this point on, but I'm going to keep throwing him in there.

Speaker 2 And also, Deontay Wilder's back, Bill, on Friday in Kansas

Speaker 1 places.

Speaker 2 He has come back and he's looking to make one more more run at 39 years old. Ready to go.

Speaker 1 Here's a good question for you that I guarantee your podcast partner, Sergio Mora, wouldn't set you up with an alley oop like this. Who has a chance to be boxing's Caitlin Clark?

Speaker 1 The out of nowhere person that would get everybody excited about the casual fans. Is there anybody? Because I've given up on Bacoli.
I sold my stock at a loss.

Speaker 2 That's a good idea. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Boxing's Caitlin Clark.

Speaker 1 Just that.

Speaker 1 The out of nowhere,

Speaker 1 somebody that

Speaker 1 could kind of train, even somebody who could be like as big as Oscar was or Canelo was in the early years.

Speaker 2 It's hard to

Speaker 2 like, I thought Ryan Garcia could have been that guy two years ago.

Speaker 1 That's

Speaker 1 that stock is done. That stock's gone.

Speaker 2 That stock is sold. And the problem with being able to predict that is that the amateur ranks are garbage.
Like nobody comes out of the Olympics anymore. Like Oscar

Speaker 2 used that gold medal as a springboard. You know, even Wilder.
Wilder. Even Wilder.
Oh, wait. You want to get even more recent? Won a bronze medal.
Bronze Bomber used that as a springboard.

Speaker 2 Like men's U.S. Olympians have not had a good run for decades now.
So I don't know. You know, there's a lot of teenagers I've seen coming up the ranks.

Speaker 2 You know, here's one in the heavyweight division. Moses Atauma.
I don't know if you heard that name before, but he's fought a bunch of like B-level guys that has knocked them all out. He has that.

Speaker 2 He's 20 years old and has a little Mike Tyson vibe to him,

Speaker 2 a little bit of a Mike Tyson. He's knocking guys out early, like very early.
He's not super big either.

Speaker 2 He's like six foot three, but he's got this ridiculous hand speed that guys just can't keep up with. He's fighting in August against Dillian White.

Speaker 2 And Dillian White used to be a pretty good fighter in the UK, but has long since passed his prime. That is going to be another spectacular knockout for Moz Satoma.

Speaker 2 That's a guy I would watch.

Speaker 2 I don't know about the Caitlin Clark potential because he's a Brit,

Speaker 2 but like, does he have Anthony Joshua potential in terms of popularity? He might. He might.
And if he fights over in the U.S.

Speaker 2 more, maybe he gets one of those Lennox Lewis type followings that made Lennox a star.

Speaker 1 That's a good one. Good name.
All right, Mannix. Good luck in Anaheim.

Speaker 1 I hope the Celtics don't do any more trades after we just finish this podcast leading with Celtics trades.

Speaker 2 I would just, you know, the Hauser jersey you've got in your house there

Speaker 2 might be might be a collector's item. Not maybe not before the draft, but at some point this offseason could be a collector's item.

Speaker 1 All right. Thanks, Mannix.
Good to see you. You got it.

Speaker 1 All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Manix.
Thanks to Eduardo and Gahal, as always. And don't forget, I'm coming right back after round one of the NBA draft on Wednesday night.

Speaker 1 Be ready ready for that. Don't forget about Die Hard with a Vengeance, the Rewatchables.
It's up, and I will see you in 24 hours.

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