The Celtics Blow It Up and More Predraft Story Lines With Chris Mannix

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Uh, on this podcast, Chris Manix and I are going to break down the uh funeral of the 2024 Celtics and a bunch of other stuff heading into the NBA draft on Wednesday night.

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Anyway, Chris Manix next.

We're going to take a break.

We're going to bring in our friends from Pearl Jam and then we're off.

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All right, right, it's been a while.

Chris Mannix is here.

We're taping this a little after 4:30 Pacific time in the afternoon.

Was kind of waiting for stuff to happen today.

We had the Drew Holiday trade last night, and then Chris Aps Borzingis sent to Atlanta today.

Chris Mannix, the 2024 Celtics funeral is here.

They lopped off miraculously $28 million in two trades.

They got under the second apron, which doesn't just save them almost $200 million in luxury tax, but also has all these other positive roster benefits.

There still might be another trade because I think both of us feel like there might be a Sam Hauser something.

They want to bring back Luke Cornette.

They want to potentially bring back Al Horford.

So there's some other stuff happening.

But did you think it was going to be this simple?

for the Celtics to cut that much money when you have to take contracts back in trades.

And somehow Simon's $5 million less than

Drew holiday and then niang is 22 million less than poor zingas this was a borderline miracle

i i thought they made some great deals and i thought they found the exact right partners to deal with like you might think like hey what does portland need drew holiday for like they're not good but portland is trying to build this defensive identity and portland clearly had no interest in giving anthra simons any kind of money after this season.

They did that once.

They weren't going to do it again.

So really what the Blazers are doing with holiday is taking the two years left on his deal, getting him on a, like basically a three-year deal for a guy like that.

They can live with that.

And look, the Celtics can just take this flyer on Simons, let him shoot 50 threes next year and

walk away from him.

Maybe he shows them something.

Maybe he wants to be there.

Maybe it clicks, but they can just walk away from that.

Atlanta, they're another perfect partner.

Like they were looking to do,

they didn't really want to just blow the whole thing up and trade away Trey and reboot that whole thing.

They didn't, I never got the vibe from them that that was kind of what they were looking for over the last few weeks.

You know, Porzingis at his best looks like a really good fit playing opposite Trey Young.

And

like contract year Chris Des Porzingis is going to ball out.

Like the last time we saw contract year-ish Porzingis was in Washington, and he put up huge numbers there.

I think you're going to get the very best of Chris S.

Porzingis.

So

the circumstances suck.

The Celtics are not going to be good next year.

You know, probably be lucky to fight for, I mean, I guess the Eastern Conference, I think it's possible, but they're probably a play-in type of team.

But

I thought they did really well given the circumstances because they found the two teams out there that needed exactly what they had.

Well, I'm going to reach into my zag bag.

I have multiple zags for everything you just said.

Okay.

First of all, I'm not sure the Celtics are going to be that bad next year in this weird Eastern Conference.

Is it the Celtics fan side of me just kicking in?

I was looking at the roster and I'm like, man,

holiday in the playoffs and in the Knicks areas, I thought looked pretty rough.

That was a team that I think four years ago, I was talking to my dad about this yesterday because my dad was visiting.

We were like, four years ago, holiday against Brunson, holiday guarding towns.

You could have thrown holiday on basically any Knick and he would have been hugely impactful.

And he just wasn't in the Knicks series.

I was a little nervous about him going forward.

You flip him into Simons, who fills this scoring void that they clearly need with Tatum, who I think, you know, Portland was pretty good down the stretch last year, and he wasn't not a piece of that, you know?

I just,

I'm not willing to go play in yet with them.

And I don't think they're wired that way.

You have a new owner.

I don't think he's going to be like, cool, let's go 35 and 47.

Like, you don't think Jalen Brown is going to be going,

hey, look at the East.

Indiana is now with this Halliburton situation.

Knicks, new coach, who knows?

Like, you go on through it and maybe Jalen Brown's like, this is my time now.

I can carry us.

I don't know.

I'm not, I'm, I think all bets are off with the 2025-26 Celtics, including more trades and them just gutting shit.

So

let's dig into that a little bit.

Like, I love the lens that Brad Stevens is viewing this through.

Like, you might be right.

Like, Jalen Brown is probably a lock for an all-NBA team, assuming he meets the criteria next year.

I think he's going to be great.

You know, Simons is going to score.

They've got Dark White's going to be Dirk White.

They've got pieces there, but they're not a championship team.

Like,

both get on board.

So, I think what the Celtics probably look at and are saying, like, all right, we can, you know, bring the band back,

pay the luxury tax penalties,

maybe, maybe slide under the second apron, who knows, whatever they may do.

And are we going to be happy with like this second round playoff exit?

Like, is that a victory for them?

Like, to me, this is all setting up an aggressive summer and summer of the 2026 when they can lose these repeater tax penalties.

They can be under the second apron, maybe even under the first apron if they make a few deals.

I think they're setting themselves up for that 26, 27 season.

Well, you can't you can't hit that point hard enough, though, because it's not just the money.

It's all this weird roster shit that comes with being over the second apron and being a repeater.

Like, it actually really does hurt your roster for multiple years.

Kills it.

And you have to get under it.

So they did.

They did.

I applaud them for that.

Like,

I don't care about a second, like making the playoffs as a fourth seed and being feisty against the Knicks in the second round.

I don't care about that.

I don't think Brad Stevens cares about that either.

Like, this, this, to me, all these deals scream, like, let's just get through next year.

Let's take the gap year and then let's have flexibility.

Like, we can go into 26, 27 with still arguably one of the top five two-man duos in the NBA in Tatum and Brown.

Like, that can be the core.

Derek White is still under contract.

He can be part of the core.

Like, they're giving themselves room to operate in the summer of 2026.

And all they're doing really is sacrificing, you know,

whatever next year is going to look like.

I mean, look, I did think Porzingis was kind of interesting to move off him, to him to be the first guy or one of the first guys you move off because

he loves it in Boston.

He loves his role in Boston.

He loves playing there, everything about being a Celtic.

Like, could you have convinced Porzingis next summer to sign for a lesser number?

Maybe, maybe to be part of what they were doing there.

Maybe you could have convinced him.

Hell, maybe you can still convince him to do that if you have some room to operate.

Thank you.

How do we know he's not just moving to Atlanta for nine months and coming back?

He might, or he can sign with the Wizards again for the gargantuan amount of cap space they recruit.

$400 billion a year.

Exactly.

So that was kind of interesting to me that

they moved off him as quickly as they did.

But everything else, I get it.

They'll be a feisty, fun team next year.

I think Simon is going to have some great moments at team.

Like he's, he's going to put up like 40-point games at some point with them.

But they're not going to be able to do that.

I can't wait to talk about Simons.

So you said something interesting there.

You said this allows them to be really aggressive in the summer of 2026.

I don't disagree.

What if it allows them to be really aggressive in January or February of 2026?

Because the hidden piece of this, now they have Niang, who's, I think he's expiring after this year, right?

And then Simon, same thing.

You put those together.

I'm at 35 million with those two guys, right?

I am now in the mix in a bunch of different ways now, right?

What if the Celtics are better than they thought?

What if Tatum's rehab is way ahead and they feel like he can come back and mark?

Like, I just think they wanted malleability with the roster.

And with Drew,

which,

you know,

if you do the on-paper thing with the Drew Simons trade, you'd be like, whoa, Boston got a younger player and an expiring whose arrow is still maybe pointing up a tiny bit, Drew's arrow pointing down.

That's not why Portland did the deal.

I mean, Drew is like, you saw it

and you were covering the Celts a little bit last year.

Like the Drew is like one of the most beloved behind the scenes teammates in Milwaukee, in

Boston.

Like just he was in Boston for two years, and I think he goes down.

Him and Horford, I think, are going to go down as Hall of Fame, just everybody in the organization raving about people as people.

If you're Portland, you have this defensive identity you're building, but more importantly, you're bringing in like an adult, an awesome guy, a role model, a leader, like just everything you're looking for if you're a younger team.

And you have to factor that in with the trade.

Even if he was slipping a little bit last year, the stuff he brings, like think about Horford, just the last few years of his career where it's like, I don't know, he's now almost 40, still doing it.

Like Holiday might be able to be that guy for three, four more years, but it's the off-the-court stuff that I think,

you know, they, that's just, you need that shit.

Nobody's signing to go play in Portland.

So anyway, I really like that trade for both teams.

You mentioned the Simons piece, like, like, and obviously the West Coast League pass.

I've watched my share of Portland.

I have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock.

Simons will just go nuts.

You have a lot of Scoot Henderson stock?

Me and Rascillo.

We have most of it.

We cornered the market.

I respected your Neesmith Island stock.

I don't know if you guys have to do that.

We had that.

We bought it.

We just invested in Cam Whitmore, Island.

But Simons will just get super hot.

And you look at this.

This is why I was talking back before about like, I don't know if the Celtics are going to be that bad.

You, Pritchard and Simons out there those are like two of the better heat check guards in the league you have Jalen who's still a top 20 guy you might have rebounding you're gonna have a good coach you have this philosophy of just gunning up threes they're gonna be way worse defensively Porzingis played half the year last year and then was a you know a corpse in the playoffs because he wasn't healthy I don't know like I don't know how much worse the Tatum piece is the piece that's the disaster but if you're talking about the rest of it like they might be all right they might be an overachiever I don't know I'm prepared for anything i'm prepared for a top five team potentially if everybody stays healthy and and everything goes right for them but again that doesn't it doesn't get you anywhere like the i the what i like to put the thing is can they be fun though i think is what matters because if you're doing basically a gap year and you're resetting it you can't you have the celtics run where the fans have just watched a really awesome team for eight years in a row You can't just be like, yep, we don't care about this year.

Like, I still feel like they care a little bit about this year, right?

Yeah.

Not to win a title, but just to be entertaining, at least.

I think we're looking at it.

You and I care about two different things.

One,

well, you care more than I do about them being fun next year.

Like, I don't care.

Fun and malleable are the two words I would use.

I want them to have malleable roster and actually not be a disaster.

Malleable is fine.

I mean, they're not, with Jalen Brown and the talent they have, they're never going to be a disaster.

And the conference that they're in that gets weaker by literally the day with the Halliburton injury, like it's going to be impossible for them not to compete.

Although, you know, God knows what the Wizards look like.

They might actually be better

next year.

I just don't, I don't care.

Like, I think what I know what Brad's doing is saying, like, look, Tatum,

put whatever timeline you want on him, but I'm skeptical Tatum comes back at all.

Like, I don't see the point to it.

Like, there's no way people say in like eight, nine months, like, what, in what world?

Like, why, why would you drop him back into the lineup post all-star break when you might be in a playoff race?

That's just a recipe for disaster.

That makes no sense.

Like they, they have their pick in 2026.

Like that has to be factored in.

Chris, don't ruin this for me.

I'm just saying, man, like they've got their pick in 2026.

Let them, I mean, Boston fans can accept a gap year where they stink out the joint, maybe even wind up with a lottery pick if they're really, if they go the other way and are really bad.

And all of a sudden, in the summer of 2026, you got Tatum coming back.

You've got Brown still there.

You've got White still there.

You've got the genius of Brad Stevens.

And I think he's really good at this job.

He was a really good coach, and he's also a really good general manager.

You've got that all in play to shake up the roster one more time in the summer of 2026.

I'm fine with that.

I don't care if they win 30 games next year.

I really don't.

I think that's it.

I do this exercise then, Chris Manix.

Here's a Celtics team that's going to have Jalen Brown, Derek White, Peyton Pritchard, Anthony Simons, Niang.

I'm going to throw in Horford and Cornet.

Little K.

Hold on, hold on.

You think Horford's back?

I do.

I think he finishes his career in Boston.

I think it's hit that point with him.

Why are you skeptical?

I think the market could be really interesting for Horford.

Look, maybe he wants the Stakes.

I don't know.

He's made $300 million.

I'm with you.

But when I, you know, in the last few weeks, whenever I have off-season conversations with GMs, like...

A lot of it's like Al Horford would fit great there.

Like the Knicks get bounced out.

Well, Al Horford would fit pretty good in New York.

San Antonio sitting down there with Web Banyama.

Wouldn't you love to have a guy like Al Horford in your rotation as well?

This probably like a third of the league, given what Al still has left and what Al's salary demands are going to be, that theoretically would be interested.

So you're saying like the mid-level, like the $7 million or even higher?

Higher, maybe $10, $12.

I don't know.

What did he make?

10 last year?

Two years?

20 was his last contract?

I could see him in play.

Yeah, I am deep, deep down.

You're triggering me now because deep down, I am a little worried about this because the team I'm worried about is the Lakers.

That's

an obvious, obvious Al Horford fit where they could just kind of grab him.

I mean, there's some other ones, but I don't know.

He won a title in Boston.

He's beloved in Boston.

And it's like, you don't, he doesn't have to chase a ring because he won a ring, right?

And if you're talking about the difference between they could pay him $2.5 million versus seven, whatever it is, like you're going to uproot.

I don't know.

We'll see.

But

I don't think the team's going to be, I don't know.

Let's go through.

I'm going to read you everybody in the East, and you tell me what teams are definitively better than the Celtics next year.

Let's say they're no more trades and they keep Hauser.

So we would say Cleveland, yes.

Yes.

We would say the Knicks, yes.

Yes.

And Orlando, yes.

Love the Orlando trade.

Yeah.

Those three, I think we can both agree.

Have better rosters and a chance for regular season success than the Celtics next year.

I would agree.

Yeah.

Detroit.

Yeah.

I think I would agree.

All right.

So there's four.

Then

all of a sudden I'm in Indiana with no Halliburton, Giannis with no teammates.

Miami, I don't even know what they're trying to do.

The Hawks

might be the biggest threat for the five seed out of anybody we're listing.

Toronto, give me a break.

Philadelphia, I have no idea how many in B games I'm getting.

I feel like the five-seed is wide open in the East, which is more a reflection of how gutted the East is.

Yeah, and I look at Philly and we'll see what happens on draft night.

I think there's a lot of potential moves in play in the next 24 hours for Philadelphia.

If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston.

Atlanta, if Porzingas can give...

Just give me an if Embiid's healthy.

I'm just saying.

What are you doing?

I'm giving him benefit of the doubt here on this one.

If Embiid's healthy, they're better than Boston.

Right.

Atlanta, if Porzingis gives us 65-plus games, they're better than Boston.

So we're kind of in that same range there where I could see them anywhere from like eight to five.

So they're getting Porzingus and Jalen Johnson back.

I love Jalen Johnson.

I want to base all the stock on Jalen Johnson.

If you and I were the Atlanta conciliaries,

I would be like, fucking go for it, man.

You still have a $25 million trade exception that expires on July 7th.

Like,

go for it.

Go get Worman Powell from the Clippers.

Like, let's go.

Like,

go get a real player who can play in a playoff series.

You got Jalen Johnson coming back, so it's almost like you're signing a free agent.

Reese is a year older.

You have Porzingis basically replacing Capella, but you also have a Kongwu.

I like their team.

I liked their team last year.

I felt like if Jalen Johnson did get hurt last year, I thought that would have been a really interesting round one team.

I think Jalen Johnson, Jalen Johnson to me, is one of,

and amongst NBA people, he's not underrated, but like publicly, he's criminally underrated.

Like every time I watch that guy play on TV or in person, he is outstanding.

And, you know, if he's healthy, he's going to be an all-star next year.

Yeah, I mean, Porzingis, Johnson, Trey,

not a ton of defense with that group.

With that $25 million exception, I think going for it is the right play.

And I think that's their mindset too.

Like the Porzingis trade, to me, signals that Atlanta is going to try in this conference, which is the right thing to do, given what's sitting up at the top.

Well, they also have the 13th pick in the draft that they got from Sacramento.

So they still have the possibility of maybe there's one more move where they move backwards and pick up a veteran.

I tried to talk myself into Atlanta saying yes to Hauser in the 28th for the number 13th, but I don't think that's enough.

But I love Sam Hauser, and I actually think that would be a good trade for Atlanta.

So maybe consider that one, Atlanta.

The market is robust right now for Sam Hauser, from what I've heard.

I mean, he's starting that four-year, $45 million.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, he's a 40-plus percent three-point shooter who's been on a championship team, who's got a very manageable contract.

Like, there's a lot of teams that could use guys like that.

And I don't know if Baylor Scheierman is Sam Hauser 2.0 or can replicate anything he does, but I know he's a lot cheaper.

And I think that's going to be the priority for the Celtics with that particular spot in the lineup.

I feel like you might get aggregated on Hoopside now.

Manix,

Hauser trademarket, robust.

It feels like a hot take, though.

It feels like a very lukewarm take that the 26-year-old elite three-point shooter, who maybe can't guard that many guys, but can make a shot at 40% from three.

That's

like the sneakiest.

Wait, haven't you watched tape?

Stop thinking you can challenge him and post-up dudes because he's he's actually like a half decent defender and one-on-one

on an island he's actually okay i think the pistons make a lot of sense for him and i'm i'm interested to see what they do because that's you know when we talk about the wide open east if i'm the pistons i'm really looking at hey we might be one move i would have i would have kicked the tires hard on durant we talked about that the other day on this podcast like i just would have i i have cade who's one of the best 15 guys in the league i have a young team um i have an identity.

Like, what, can I improve that Tobias Harris spot and go up a level?

Yeah, from a Celtic standpoint, the Jalen part will be really fun.

The

Pritchard-Simons together as a bat, like the Pritchard-Simons, Derek White, I don't know.

I'm in on it.

I can't believe they were able to pull out those two trades.

I thought Porzingis was going to be impossible.

I just thought they were going to have to take a giant contract back because he's making 30.

Like they needed, they basically needed the Nets to be involved somehow.

And then the Nets were like, whoa, Terrence Maynard and another pick.

We already have four.

All right, cool.

We did it.

What's they doing?

Yeah.

What do you think the Nets are up to here?

Because they're not accruing all these draft picks to just draft guys.

Like that's when

I was at the draft lottery, talking to people.

in Brooklyn and people that talked to Brooklyn, the most deflated team not to move up was the Brooklyn Nets because the Brooklyn Nets believe that a top four pick was going to put them in play for one of the bigger names out there.

Now, obviously, Giannis was at the very top of their list.

No idea if Giannis, what's going to happen or how that's going to play out the next few weeks.

But all I know is that the Nets acquiring one-sixth of Thursday's draft is not so they can draft five guys.

Like, that's just not, that's not what Sean Marks is looking to do here.

I'm very curious to see what the next 24 hours look like for Brooklyn, If they have something else in mind or another deal in mind to use these picks for.

Well, we think San Antonio is staying at two with Harper.

I think that's locked in.

Philly, I'm prepared for literally anything.

You could give me any scenario and I would sign up for it.

So if you told me Daryl feels like

my model says we should take Ace Bailey, we don't even need to take him at three.

He's going to be there at seven.

We'll trade back with Brooklyn or trade back to eight.

He's still going to be there at eight and we'll pick up all these other picks and then I'll do weird Daryl stuff with them.

You can talk me into that.

You could talk me into anything with Charlotte because I don't.

Can I throw something about Charlotte?

So Charlotte, so this Ace Bailey thing is wild.

Like

Ace Bailey kind of being navigated by an agent that doesn't have a ton of experience, not working out for anybody.

I think my theory on this, on Ace Bailey, is that right or wrong,

he or his team believe there's a team out there that he wants to go to that is going to trade up with Charlotte?

Like, he's not working out for Philadelphia.

There's got to be a reason for that.

He's not going to Utah.

I don't think he wants to go to Charlotte.

I think that Ace Bailey thinks that there's a team that's going to leap up, get that Charlotte pick, and he wants to play there.

That's my theory on Ace Bailey.

My team like the Brooklyn Nets?

Maybe.

Maybe.

So Charlotte moves back four spots.

They pick up a bunch of extra assets, Which they need more than that fourth pick, I would argue.

Right.

Yeah, because especially if

Edgecombe goes third, which I think is the guy Charlotte wants,

trying to decode all the what's bullshit, but what's actually real.

And it really does seem like that's the guy they want.

And maybe they're like, fuck it, then we'll move back.

For Brooklyn, I feel like Ace Bailey is going to drop to eight, and I wouldn't trade up to get him because

I think when you put the stink out like that, we saw it work with Saar last year.

Like Saar did this to Atlanta.

He's like, nope, not even going.

If you take me, buyer, beware.

This does work.

When you have a pick that high and you have, usually if you're picking that high, your team's probably a mess to begin with, right?

And it's like, oh, so who'd you take with this prime lottery pick?

We took the guy who literally wouldn't fly to come work out with us, who refuses to take our calls and won't send us his medical records until the league mandated that he had to.

That's our first pick.

High fives, everybody.

Like, nobody wants to do that.

So, this actually works.

I think it's smart.

But on the other hand, it's possible that Ace Bailey is just a train wreck.

The stuff of the representation is pretty alarming.

Like, there's, and there's a lot of stories that have been, I think, being passed around, and people aren't really talking about them publicly, but there's just, it just seems like a train wreck.

It's not like this is being

it's not like this is being orchestrated by like a bill duffy or yeah some rich paul rich paul rich paul yeah i'm doing the chessboard here it doesn't feel like chessboard type stuff it's

checkers what board game would you do shoots and ladders i don't know like whatever i mean it just played shoots and ladders it just feels very simple very

Very uneasy.

The only thing I can think of, though, is that somebody's trying to get to four and they like the team that's trying to get to four that goes against him.

I think if he's at eight, Brooklyn's going to take him.

Like all the stuff that's going on with Ace Bailey, he's a shot maker.

Like, I don't know if he flames out, he doesn't have the mindset for it or the complete skill set to become a great player, but that guy can get you a bucket.

Like, that's why those weird Durant comparisons, I can kind of see it.

I can kind of see shades of it.

And if he's sitting there at eight, I think Brooklyn's going to take him.

I also don't think he gets past Washington.

I think Washington would take a flyer on a guy like that with a high upside at number six.

So I think at four is when this, well, three, it's going to get interesting because I don't know what Philadelphia is going to do either.

But I think at four, it gets real interesting with respect to Ace Bailey.

If Washington doesn't take him at six, I'm going to be disappointed.

Yeah.

I don't know if it's the right pick for them.

And it seems like the kind of guy they've,

the type of, of, of kind of polarizing porter they've had in the past where it's usually like, oh man, that didn't work out.

Um, Brooklyn makes the most sense.

That's his end game.

But

I think this is a great draft.

I've really enjoyed it.

I've enjoyed doing the research for it.

I think it's really unpredictable.

You have Cooper at the top.

It's so funny.

Like he goes and works out for Dallas and then the stories are going, Cooper flag.

He knocked everyone's socks off.

People were blown away.

It's like, we can stop doing that with the Cooper Flag workouts.

We get it.

He blows everyone away.

He's amazing.

He's fucking, you know, juggling three balls, beating everybody in drills.

Like, we get it.

He's amazing.

And then two, Harper is locked in, but then we get to three and it's like, I'm prepared for anything.

Tradebacks.

There's three guys I wouldn't be surprised if they took.

I wouldn't be surprised if Daryl took Ace.

I know you wouldn't either.

If he was just like, yeah.

Ace has the highest upside.

I think he can be a superstar.

Edgecombe, we think he's Dwayne Wade.

He just needs to figure out how to finish the layup.

Knipple, perfect for the team we have.

We think Ambed's going to play 70 games.

He fits in.

He does this, this, and this.

It's an awesome draft.

Let's take a quick break and I have

some more trade stuff to throw you.

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So, if you were the Atlanta Hawks,

are you building this around Trey Young?

You feel good about that?

I don't feel good about it.

I don't think that Trey Young can be the number one guy on a championship team.

I do think Trey Young as the number one guy in a conference that stinks can be the number one guy on an Eastern Conference championship team.

I think they're in play next year.

So I think that's the mindset that Atlanta probably has.

going into this season because it's not a, look, if they want to blow this whole thing up, they can do it next summer.

You know, Porzingis is coming off the books.

Young will have one less year left in his contract.

You'll still have Jalen Johnson to build around long term.

Like, this is kind of the perfect year to sort of go for it.

See what you can get with that $25 million trade exception.

See if there's some guy that fits

either in the backcourt alongside Trey, four spot, I don't know, wherever they think is the right fit and go for it this year.

And if it doesn't work, screw it.

Then next year,

there'll be a market for Trey Young next year.

Somebody's going to want to get him.

Like, I mean, nobody wants to sign with Washington.

Maybe they take him on.

Like, they absorb his contract into their books.

Like, there's a lot of things you can do if you're Atlanta beyond this season.

Like, this, no matter what, they're not going to win a title.

I think we both can agree on that with this group.

After Indiana, I'm not willing to agree on anything.

Indiana won 15 playoff games.

I know.

Indiana plays with just a, I don't know.

If you get guys around Trey Young that are tough like that, Neesmith, Siakam,

you know, Nemhard, I don't see those guys in Atlanta.

I don't see them.

Look at their depth chart.

I don't see a ton of those guys.

But I think in this

landscape, I mean,

you can do it.

You can make a run with this group.

And if you can, great.

Maybe you see, like, hey, we just one piece away, or and then we'll add that guy in the offseason.

Or, you know, you go into next summer and you blow the whole damn thing up.

You trade Trey Young and you rebuild around a really good player, an all-star in Jalen Johnson.

I think it's all upside for the Hawks.

We see it the same way.

I think this is the official Trey Young audition year.

What do you got?

Here, we put a bunch of guys with blink who can protect you on defense.

We have a little pick-and-pop threat now with Porzingis.

We also have a real center who can protect the rim.

I don't know what they're going to do with 13th pick and that trade exception, but we assume there's one more really good guy coming.

And it's like, let's see.

We've created the type of team.

I think.

what they have a chance to do is what we watched Indiana do with Halliburton, where they built a roster around a guy's specific skill set in tray's case they can protect him on defense and they're surrounding him with shooters and length which is kind of what you'd have to do um

and at indiana um

it's i i'm i'm still

you didn't go to game seven did you i did yeah oh yeah i'm still reeling from

just that whole thing and and then also that you know to come that close to winning a title to have the first five minutes the way it went and then to realize, much like Celtic fans last month, where it's like, not only did we just get knocked out of the playoffs, but next year is now gone too.

Like, it's, it was just so much.

I'm still digesting it.

I can't even imagine what it was like to be there.

I think that Oklahoma City has emerged as a top three crowd in the NB.

I think Boston's better.

I think New York's better, but I think Oklahoma City is right there.

Make it argue for somebody else, fine, but I think Oklahoma City is right there

in that three spot.

I've never experienced a crowd that amped up just cut it, go completely silent the way that it did.

Everybody in that moment knew exactly what happened based on how he moved, how he responded.

I mean, players from both sides, crowd, media, everybody knew.

I've never seen

a reaction quite like that when you had a crowd amped up to an 11.

just going nuts and then have that happen and everything just go completely silent.

It was it was surreal, man, being there and seeing him go down like that.

And then his reaction, he's banging his hand on the floor.

And then you're watching the replay on the monitor, and you can see the calf buckle.

So you know right away exactly what it is.

That was tough.

That was real tough to watch in real time.

Yeah, I was thinking about it because we podcasted after that night, and I was thinking after about some stuff I wish I had thought of when we were doing it live, because I was still like kind of gathering.

It was just so incredible of a basketball situation and a life situation.

It was hard to wrap your head around.

I was thinking about,

I think

it was my first year I was writing for USPan or the second year.

So it was maybe 2002 playoffs when Dirk got hurt and everybody was like, he's got to suck it.

He was hurt in the playoffs.

I think it was against Sacramento.

And it was so long ago, I can't even remember.

But he was hurt and Cuban didn't want to bring him back in.

And he wanted him to play hurt.

And his whole thing was like, Dirk's going to be our guy for a long time.

it's not worth it to play him in this playoff series.

And I remember writing, I think I wrote in my piece, like, that's crazy.

If you have a chance for the title, you have to go it.

And as I've gotten older, I feel completely differently about it.

Like,

you know, obviously he was hurt.

Obviously, they shot him up so he could play, right?

And then you go out and you tell the, you tell the person,

hey, man, you know, be careful.

Don't, you're, you're injured.

Just be careful how you do this.

But what happens?

You hit a couple threes.

The adrenaline's rising.

You know, he's going in a timeout and you just kind of forget you're hurt, but he was hurt.

And then he made it worse.

And now they really screwed up their team.

And

I don't know.

Just that Cube and Dirk decision.

I was thinking about that.

Do you play him?

If you play him, are you more careful?

And Halliburton's like, I have no regrets.

It was game seven.

We had a chance to win the title, but

I don't know.

Something still doesn't sit right with it, with me.

I agree.

It's like that old, that old parable where the guy drowns and he blames God for

not saving him.

It's like

we have a lot of evidence over the last five years that show that these types of calf injuries lead to a catastrophic injury like an Achilles tear.

The Durant situation, I think Dame's injury was kind of some of that.

Him coming back from deep vein thrombosis and being thrust right back into a high pressure, high octane situation.

Like we've got the evidence.

It's out there.

You can just point to it and say, this is the kind of stuff that not only can happen, but does happen at a frequently alarming weight rate.

And I don't know what you tell.

Like Rick Carlisle, you know, I was at all those games and all the pregame stuff.

And Rick Carlisle, every single pregame was like, we're watching him.

We're watching him.

We're watching him.

So obviously they're probably telling.

And even Halliburton, I think after game five, maybe, like, somebody asked him, like, have you been told that there's not a high risk of injury?

He's like, no, I have not been told that.

Like, he knew that something was possible, you know, there.

But I don't know how you tell a guy in game seven of the NBA Finals, whether or not he made three of the first five shots that he took, three threes.

I don't know how you tell a guy going in, like, go at 80%.

Like, it's impossible to tell a guy.

Just be, yeah, just be careful, be careful, be careful.

You kind of can't do that because he was careful in game six.

He wasn't that good.

Unless you're going to, you know, camp him out in the corner and have him be a decoy, then

this was always a potential mission.

Maybe that's what they should have done.

I mean, they kind of did that.

They kind of did that for, what was it, game six, for a lot of game six, I think it was.

He was kind of hanging on the perimeter, just lingering around.

Yeah, maybe they should have gone that route, but like you're never going to be able to tell a guy of that caliber, like, hey, man, this could happen.

Don't push off as hard.

Don't break to the basket if you see an opening.

Like, it's too hard to have a guy compartmentalize.

I'm still wrapping my head around it.

I've never

who do you blame?

Do you like like

that?

Sounds like I don't blame anybody because it's obviously his choice.

He wants to play.

It's no different than like we both love boxing and we love UFC and people make decisions with their bodies and their heads.

And we watch it over and over again.

And you can't be like, you dummy, you shouldn't have played.

Obviously, he wanted to play.

It was super risky.

But I've never, I mean, to come that close, when you think of like the two sliding doors of

this guy was on pace to be the hero of that game.

And then in at the seven, six minute mark, whatever it was, all of a sudden he's done for a year.

Like, I, I've never seen anything like that.

And the Tatum thing was horrible when that happened.

I mean, that was one of the more traumatic.

We've had two of the most traumatic NBA injuries we've ever had.

in the span of a month.

And nobody's been able to explain this Achilles thing.

I was texting with Doc about it.

And I was like, nobody had these, oh, these were old guys' injuries.

These are injuries like my uncle Bob started playing pickleball and he blew out his Achilles.

Like, these don't happen to people in their primes.

And

we were saying, I was like, when you were playing,

I was saying this to Doc, like,

you know, you just play pickup in the summer, right?

And you weren't doing these like 365 days a year, all this training and practicing Eurosteps and footwork.

And maybe it's too much.

Like, Like, maybe they really have to reevaluate all the stuff they're doing.

Doc was saying, we just played pickup every day on concrete in 100-degree weather, and then our knees went.

So, in the old days, the knees went, and now it feels like it's the below the knees is starting to go.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that two of the best guys who still were arrow pointing up for their careers have this injury that nobody had before recently.

Is there?

So, I've texted a few medical people, you know, team trainers, whatnot, for theory.

It's all theory at this point.

But

is there anything to the idea that maybe now more than ever, these guys are just basketball players?

Like

they're not,

yeah.

You grow up, you know, a lot of guys you cover back in the day, they were football players, they were, you know, hockey players.

And if they grew up in the Northeast, like they were playing other sports.

Nowadays, it's, it's straight basketball.

Like Cooper Flag is actually an example.

I spent the better part of a couple of weeks around him.

Did he blow you away?

Him personally, no, no.

Okay.

You know, who's, I mean, the greatest, like, he was on the cover of the magazine.

The greatest Cooper Flag supporter is Scal.

Like, he's out of his mind in support of this guy.

He thinks he's like LeBron.

Like, this is, you know, he may have to settle down a tad.

But you do, you, you put, you put together your Mount Rushmore tomorrow, like, in, or day one of the season.

Scal's going to have Cooper Flag on the top of that, on that Mount Rushmore.

But he's like, to this point, like, he grew up,

you know, in first grade, second grade.

He was a great football player.

You know, this is why they consider a prodigy.

Great at everything, football,

played soccer, played baseball, but just stopped after, I think, second or third grade, whenever it was, and then just focused entirely on basketball.

That's what a lot of these guys.

Jason Tatum, when he got to a young age, got with Drew Hanlon when he was young and started working on skills, just this.

I wonder if there's anything to the singular focus.

on the game where you're not kind of, you know, doing other things that might protect your body from these types of, of injuries.

Again, it's all theoretical, but this kind of came up with a couple of training people that I've talked to.

But it's worth looking into more if you're the NBA.

Like having, having Kobe tear his Achilles in the back end of his career is one thing.

Having, you know, an alpha, an MVP candidate like Tatum, the star of the postseason like Halliburton, like this is something that they need to look at.

Yeah, Kobe, who was playing those 48-minute games during that stretch, right?

And he was at the end of his career and he pushed it too far and it it made sense.

It doesn't, these, the equipment's too good.

The training stuff's too good.

The medicines too, everything's too good for to have this injury.

I don't really fully understand it.

And I also don't understand why it's not happening in other sports, right?

Like it's not happening in tennis, you know?

It's not, I think Tiger Torres Achilles in golf, but it's just,

anyway.

That was a, that was quite a tangent we just did.

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What players?

So you're obviously texting a million people and we're all sifting through the same bullshit,

not knowing what's real and not real.

And then anytime a trade happens, it's like, that's a trade.

Like I thought Drew was going to Dallas or Phoenix.

I really did.

And I would have bet on Dallas.

I would have bet.

I thought Dallas was like minus 200 for a Drew home.

I thought it was going to be two pieces.

One gets rerouted to Brooklyn or Atlanta, wherever, and their trade exception.

Boston keeps the other piece, and Dallas gets through.

Portland comes, and then it's like, oh, yeah, they've loved him the whole time.

It's like, really?

I didn't hear that once.

Is there a player that you're hearing floated around a name that has surprised you as we are now 24 hours away from the draft?

Is there somebody you're like, whoa, that guy?

I don't know if it's a well,

New Orleans is very much open for business.

Zion, not particularly, but they're a team that is determined to shake things up.

Like, could Herb Jones be available in New Orleans?

I mean, that's a small name, but

I think that's something interesting.

Again, I don't know what Philadelphia is going to do here.

Are they

do they just sit on that draft pick and take it?

Do they try to package it?

Is Paul George in play?

You know, I've heard some of that over the last uh 24 hours or so that they could be looking to the trade back with paul george yeah to do something there um

yeah those the the philly stuff is what i've been most looking at i think the charlotte thing is the next one i think charlotte is very open for business at number four to move down um and i think there's a team that's going to be in play that tries to move up and and take uh and take that charlotte spot i'm intrigued by the quippers who don't seem like they have a lot going on but also don't seem to be super happy with their roster.

Just

like,

where's the evidence they're going to be better this year than or this coming year than they were?

And I thought they were right there with some of these other teams, but I also think they're going to be a year older next year.

I'm just, they've been quiet, which makes me suspicious.

And then the team I cannot figure out for the life of me is Miami because I've heard they didn't offer anything for Durant.

If you talk to some different like NBA team people,

they're like, we heard the Miami thing was like close to being done and something happened.

I don't know what to believe anymore.

And I don't know what Miami's up to.

And,

you know, usually they're star hunting right around now and they've been quiet too.

And I don't know,

are they going to zag and go the other way?

I don't know.

The Miami part of it, from what I heard after the deal got done, was, you know, Khalil Ware was off the table.

And really, the only thing that was on the table was

Wiggins, some contract filler, a little bit of draft capital, nothing at all.

What the fuck?

That's like

nothing.

Which means they didn't really want him.

But, Bill, I don't know who, but besides Houston, who really wanted him this offseason?

I think the Clippers, you mentioned them, I think they were interested.

They just don't have anything to really offer that Phoenix might be looking for.

San Antonio

was clear.

know there was some

i don't i don't know if the harden tires were kicked

oh no no

that that wouldn't be that would be bad

it it didn't work but i'll i'll put it this way

i don't think harden's game seven went over great

you think

i don't think it went over great with literally anybody on the on the Clippers.

So, and but I also don't think there's a market for him.

But like If we were talking about the most shocking name that you could see getting traded in the next week that isn't actually shocking, he would be on my list.

I just don't know who he'd be trading for.

I mean, there was no market for him last offseason, and the Clippers gave him a deal that he never would have gotten anywhere else.

Like, that was, I never understood that deal at the time.

I don't think the Clippers want to pay Norman Powell long term either.

Had a great year last year, but has he plateaued as a player?

Is that going to be a, if they give him money, is that going to be a contract they're trying to get off of in two years?

I think they have that mindset.

Just the Durant stuff, like,

I've been writing Houston since last February because I knew from being around the Rockets how much Eme liked him and how much Durant respected Emei from the Brooklyn days and the USA basketball days and how well the fit worked.

Like I went down there in February, March to do something on Amen.

And like even then, like Raphael Stone was on and off the record.

It was like, we're not doing anything.

Like we're, we're trying to see what this team looks like in the playoffs.

And they got their look.

They got their look.

Jalen Green's not the guy.

Jalen Green is never going to be the guy.

So now they go out and maybe it's not a round peg, round hole type of fit, getting the age of Durant, but I believe that Kevin Durant is still.

capable of being like one of the best scorers in the NBA for 65 plus games in a season.

And I think given what I saw from that team in the playoffs last year,

that's exactly who they need.

Especially in the playoffs themselves.

100%.

That's what they need.

You replace Kevin Durant, healthy Kevin Durant, with you swap out Jalen Green.

They beat Golden State in the first round.

Like, I don't know what the ceiling is after that, but they beat Golden State in the first round.

I think the Rockets, who are going to get real organic growth from their young guys next year, starting with Thompson, who I think is an absolute monster waiting to break out.

I think they're now in play to win the Western Conference.

And if I was looking at the biggest threats to Oklahoma City next year, without knowing exactly what Denver is going to look like, I would say Houston's at the top of that list.

We agree.

And I also,

what's so interesting about that trade, I wish I had said this Sunday when we talked about it.

It feels like they still have a trade left.

They were able to keep enough assets to do another move.

I don't think the Celtics are trading Jalen, and I hope they don't.

But if they did trade Jalen, weirdly Houston Houston is still the best home for him.

They'd have to put the Van Bleet thing in it to make it work.

And I think Tari Eason would have to be in it.

But with all the picks they have, there's a move now, a little reminiscent.

We've seen this in years, like the 07 to 08 Celtics was the best example of like, you do this one move, and then that opens the door for the second move makes more sense, right?

Do the Ray Allen trade.

Now KG trade makes more sense than it did if it was just going to be KG and Paul.

I just, I can't count out Jalen and Houston, even though I don't want Boston to trade Jalen.

I don't think they're going to.

I don't know that Houston has enough to get Boston's attention there.

Like the Van Vliet contract and what else?

Like you want to take on the Sun's picks in 27 and 29?

Like you want to, I mean, that, I don't know how Jalen's going to be.

It would be all the basically all the picks and Eason and Van Vliet's contract.

You're right.

It probably isn't enough, but it's enough for somebody and it keeps them in the

Giannis area, too, in January, February, if that goes bad.

I thought San Antonio was the most, and I said this

a couple of weeks ago.

I thought San Antonio is the most interesting team for Jalen if they decided to go that direction.

I think they still are.

Still are.

But I think the Spurs may be just keeping their powder dry in case the Giannis thing just bursts and they can make a play there.

But if that's not on the table,

they can very easily put together a package package that makes a lot of sense for both sides.

To bring it full circle to Boston though, I like that

it sure seems like they're not jettisoning Jalen here.

Like that, that I think was a thought as they were trying to figure out what to do with this team moving forward.

But I like that they're not dumping this guy because it's hard to get two guys like Tatum and Brown.

Like it's hard to get two guys that you know can win together on a championship level.

And I like that they're keeping him intact, keeping him there, and presumably going to keep him as part of a two or three person core that they're going to build around in the summer of 2026.

I just think that's the right move for them to make.

And look, teams were calling about Jalen, several of them calling to see the availability.

It was a hot market for him in white.

There's no question.

No question.

But the Celtics were pretty firm that,

you know, yeah, next year may suck for them.

You know, it may, it may even be a lottery year, which I don't think would disappoint too many people given that they have their pick.

It may be bad, but 2026, we're back.

Like, you know, y'all must have forgot

with us in the fall of 2026 when Tatum comes back from that injury.

That's that to me is what their mindset is.

You know, who's not tanking?

Joe Mazzoula, who's this absolute psycho.

Oh, isn't this fascinating?

I'm glad you brought that up.

This would be an absolute psychology experiment watching him

intentionally lose games and play lineups.

that would,

there's just no way.

I don't see it.

That's why I think it's more likely they win 48 to 50 games than 32 to 35 games.

But it may be inescapable that they're not that good, that there may be a 500 type of team.

I'm fascinated to see how Joe Missoula handles mediocrity.

Like, does he start plucking his eyebrows after a three-game losing streak?

No, we put him on like meds.

I think he's going to have to be sedated.

Like when, like, like with

when you have little kids and you you put them on an airplane and you just have to make sure like that yeah hey will you take this benadryl i need you i need to i need to knock you out for a second i don't think he'll be able to handle it i mean he takes losses so hard we saw that during the last couple of seasons

maybe he just leaves the team in january it's like joe's gonna go learn learn a next level of muay thai in thailand for the next four months and we'll bring him back in june just walking around challenging guys to muay thai fights across Europe and Africa.

Like, I could, I could see that.

I could see that.

It will be, it'll be interesting to see how he deals with it because

this will be new.

Can we say one thing on Jalen Brown?

Yeah.

I think it'd be a huge mistake to trade him unless it was like for 200 cents in the dollar.

And especially after like what the Red Sox did, not to compare the same situation with Mookie because that was different.

They just didn't want to pay him and they're fucking assholes.

Um,

I just, I want to see Brown and Tatum together.

And I think Jalen's like really important in the city.

Like he really gives a shit about the right things.

And I don't think you can lose guys like that if you don't have to.

Like there, nobody expects them to win the title next year.

The salaries are going to be nuts, but they're going to be able to reset this whole apron thing and then make another three-year run.

And I just don't see it.

I was actually looking at the OKC,

trying to figure out when they get screwed, because this is one of the legacies of this Celtics run.

And then you think like OKC, like, oh, they're so positioned.

And they are in a lot of ways, right?

They're young, they have draft draft picks, they have flexibility, but then they really don't.

When we get to the 27, 28 season, I was trying to map out if they give Chet and Jalen Williams the, you know, the contract extensions, which would be

five for 247,

right?

And nobody takes less anymore.

Like, Chet's like, I want to help the team.

I'll do five for 200.

Like, he's going to take the 247.

So that would kick in in the 26, 27 season.

And Shay's Super Max really kicks in for the 27-28 season.

All of a sudden, he'd be making $65.5 million a year.

And Chet and J-Dub

would

be making $46 and $46.

So just for those three guys,

you're looking at $158 million for three guys.

And the second apron for that year would be around $230.

Yeah, cap will go up.

Yeah, those numbers.

I was trying to factor in the cap because the cap goes up 10% max every year and the apron's tied to that

so they'd have about 70 million left for the rest of their roster after those three guys and the point is the nba has created this league now where even if you do everything correctly you make all the right trades all the right draft picks you just nail every step

you're still

like three years later and the celtics are the latest example we're seeing denver now that they can't even build around you i want to talk about that in a second um but i just think when i wish i I had said this on Sunday night, when we talk about like, oh, they're going to own the rest of the decade, it's like, I think we're talking three, four-year windows for anybody because it's too hard after that.

Yeah, they're, look, they're more equipped than any team in the last, what, five, six years to have sustained success.

I mean, Milwaukee, they didn't have it in part because they went all in to get a guy like Holiday and cost themselves some picks.

Then they moved.

And they traded Drew assets too.

Yeah.

they missed on these picks, though.

Like, that's a big part of it, too.

Like, the guys they drafted can't play.

Denver, kind of the same thing, not as far as giving away draft capital, but when the veterans got too expensive for that team, and maybe they should have spent a little more money, especially on a guy like KCP,

their young players were not ready to step in and play.

Well, and then they did the Zeke Najee extension.

They extended Porter to the point that he's untradeable, making $40 million a year.

That felt

like a Walmart deal there.

That was a

good deal for that was a bad one.

Oklahoma City to me, though, is a little bit different.

And you know this, but like

the way that the contracts are set up over the next three years help them navigate the books.

And I'm talking about the team options.

Like there are a lot of team options.

You look at those books, Bill.

Yeah, that doesn't happen in today's day.

Hardenstein's got a team option next summer.

Isaiah Joe, I think, has a team option

the year after that.

Lou Dort

does as well.

Another one there.

Like, you can either let these guys go and shave that money off your books and get underneath one of those aprons, or you can convince someone like Hartenstein to, you know, take a little bit less to stick around and be part of maybe something he likes being a part of.

Dort, I think, might be different.

I think there's going to be a big market for Dort next summer if he's a free agent.

I think he's a great player, but you've got Kaysen Wallace looking to step in.

And look, even next year, like

I did a little reporting, Bill, around young Nikola Topich during the finals.

A lot of Oklahoma City excitement about Nikola Topich.

A lot of guys that have been scrimmaging with him.

You know, Kendrick Williams talked to me for a while about him.

Dagnolt, big fan of Nikola Topich.

Like,

it's not an obvious path, but if they can just get these guys to hit, if they can get Topich to become part of their top eight or nine as early as next season, if they can get Kaysen Wallace to be good enough to step in and replace Lou Dort down the line, If they can hit on one or two of these next, what is it, seven picks right now in the next four years of the draft, they can just hit on these guys,

they got a chance here to do what all those other teams we just mentioned have not done.

So I'm a little more optimistic.

Usmondang, yes, that's another guy that, you know,

they have guys.

They have guys that, you know, they're not going to step into your top three or four, but they don't need them to do that.

They need guys between four and eight to be consistent.

I think they've got more potential than any team of

the last five, six years to have that.

We 100% agree.

If any team is going to pull it out, Topich Island.

By the way, I'll say this on your show.

I want all the real estate on Top Pitch Island.

I'm in too.

I'll get a comment right after.

Look at that.

You get a condo.

So

I agree with everything you just said.

I'm talking three years from now.

Here's the counter.

And did you, I didn't, you didn't go to Indiana, right, for three and four?

I did, yeah.

Oh, I didn't.

Somehow I didn't see you.

Yeah.

Um,

Dort and Crusoe won game four, and that was the game they needed to win this series.

And the problem with all of this is you still need guys like that.

So it's like, oh, yeah, Wallace will praise Lou Dort.

It's like, Willie, Lou Dort was fucking awesome in that game four, and so was Crusoe.

And it's like, and you think about like the Celtics in 24, like Drew Holiday in the Indiana series, like some of the stuff he was doing, the Porzingas, the boost he was, you just lose that and the series can tilt in the wrong way.

And I honestly think if Indy wins game four, that series is done in six.

I really believe it.

I think Indy would have finished the series.

I think there was this moment in time in that second half where they had the series and they just couldn't close it.

So we'll see if they can do it.

They have to keep hitting on the Topich types of like whoever like they had, they take like they can keep replenishing that Dort Caruso spot, maybe.

What did you think of the Cronky thing today?

That I got a lot of texts about that one today.

Cronky just

like, yeah, we basically opened the door for we might have to trade Jokic if he doesn't want to sign an extension.

It was the most needless media story I've ever seen, which makes it think, makes me think it was intentional.

I just don't think you make a mistake like that in a press conference when all of these guys are trained to just measure your words, say things carefully.

I don't think it was an accident.

I really don't.

I haven't, I've read the quote.

I haven't watched the quote, and I always want to watch it first just to make sure to understand fully the context.

But the right answer for any question about Nikolai Yokic is: we're building around him forever.

We want a statue of him in front of the building.

That's it.

That's it.

He's never playing anywhere else.

He's our guy.

Him saying it the words.

The word trade should never wind up in the same three sentences, within three sentences of Nikola Jokic.

But the way he framed it was like,

it made me think, and this, there's always been this stuff floating around, who knows if it's true, but it made me wonder if they think he wants to be there for the rest of his career or not.

The way it was, there was something weird about the way he said it that made me think they're nervous.

That if anybody's just going to be like, I'll see you guys later.

I'm going to go over here now.

Like, who knows?

Who knows with that dude?

I don't know.

I thought, I just thought it was a notable moment.

Sometimes in the NBA, there would be these little press conference moments or something said in a locker room or just some sort of Ted bit where you go, huh, that kind of came out of nowhere.

What did that mean?

So I'm just, I'm noting it.

Don't you think that, don't you think that like Jokic to me is more likely to just decide at the end of his next contract that he's not going to play anymore?

Like, I'm just going to go back to Serbia and race horses and I've made enough money and I don't want to train like this anymore.

Like, that, that, to me, that's always been like something you should be, people should be wary about with Jokic.

Like, everybody says, like, he's got the kind of game that could, that's going to age really well, and it probably will, but I don't see him at like age 39, like, pulling like an Arveta Sabonis.

Like, I don't see him, I just don't see him playing until the wheels come off.

I think he's got a clock in his head for exactly how long he wants to play.

But regardless,

I've heard this theory that he's really likely.

This was going around like a year ago.

If anyone's likely to just be like, I'll see you guys later.

Thanks for everything.

It's him.

I don't believe it.

That dude's too competitive.

And you've been to some of these playoff games when he's really locked in.

He's a maniac.

I don't think you're going to be like, all right, I'm just going to play in a shitty league now.

I think that guy wants to, you know, that what he did against OKC with the supporting cast he had, especially as we saw what happened with this OKC team.

Pretty crazy.

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What else?

Did we have anything else we need to hit before we go?

I mean, I'm going to talk boxing at the tail end, but are there any other NBA storylines you're excited about or no?

I think that's, yeah, that's.

Here's what I want to throw at you.

The NBA storyline that might not be applicable now, but could be a year from now, because I think this is the potential biggest free agent that could be out there.

Sam Presty in Oklahoma City.

Like, we're going to get two expansion teams probably in the next three years.

I think the NBA is going to step on the gas with the expansion now that the Lakers sold for $10 billion.

You know who's roadblocking them right now?

James Dolan.

Yeah.

He's got a little cabal of anti-expansion owners that he's trying to just, just to

because he doesn't want it.

He doesn't want to share the media rights.

Yeah, but James Dolan doesn't want to share anything.

He votes no at every single board of governors meeting.

Yes, he does.

Go back and look at some of these meetings.

Like, how many of them are 29 to 1?

Like, he sends his conciglieri in because he doesn't really go.

I think he has a couple of people this time, though.

i don't want expansion yeah i think this expansion thing's a little not enough a little more complicated than people are giving it credit for it might be but it's not it's not enough like how many do you need to expand is the two-thirds that i thought it was three-fourths but three-fourths maybe either either way i don't think that dolan has enough to block i i as many as that may be out there that quietly don't want it i think there's a lot that very publicly can you imagine people are like yeah i'm in the dolan block

dolan's leading the way i'm on his side with the, like, can you imagine like aligning with that?

Yeah.

I'm taking the expansion fee anyway.

But like, on the expansion side, like, let's just assume Vegas and Seattle.

Everybody believes that's how it's going to play out.

Like, if you're the new Sonics,

what's Sam Presty worth to you?

Piece of the team.

If you're a piece of the team.

20% of the team.

1%, whatever.

Same thing with the Vegas gambler, whatever the hell they're going to be called.

Worth the exact same thing, I think.

Like

Seattle is better, though, because

that's the, we lost this guy to Oklahoma City.

Now we've brought him back to be our architect.

He was 29 when he came here.

He's 49 when he's coming back, and he's going to build this team the way, you know, it's prophecy fulfilled, all that stuff.

I don't know that Sam is looking to leave Oklahoma, but he's been there a very long time.

And he's not only won them a championship, which is the priority, but he's set them up.

And presumably, a Rob Hennigan, who would replace him, who hasn't been seen much in the last 10 years, but is his lieutenant there.

He's got it set up.

So there's a ascension there.

And look, I've been saying at the time, and I know you knew it too, like Sam, when Boston was open before Brad Stevens got it, like, Sam was interested.

Sam was interested in that job.

But the funny thing was, Boston really wasn't open.

I mean, that was one of the things is like, we went from Danny to Brad.

They had a Brad coaching situation.

and a big contract for him.

They had Danny ready to, and it just,

I don't think Presty, did he ever ever get to throw his hat in the ring.

I don't think

externally, nobody, I don't think externally people knew it was going to be that clean an ascension.

I think people outs on the outside thought there might be uh it might be an open job.

And I think when it was thought that way, there was some, I think there was interest background.

Presty, Massachusetts, went to Emerson, like dream was to work for the Celtics and just never happened.

Still hangs out in New England in the summertime with his family.

Like, still does all that.

I'm just saying, like,

he wouldn't have any reason reason to feel bad about leaving Oklahoma City.

He helped win them a championship and he built a winner that can be there sustainable for the next three or four years.

The chance to do something like build a team from scratch for a guy like Sam Presti, who has built two,

you know, a title contender back in 2012 with the peak of the Durant Harden Westbrook years and a title winner.

that may have won multiple championships by the time his quote free agency comes up.

I just think that's something to watch.

I think that whatever two teams get the expansion rights, I think he is going to be someone that's on their radar.

And I don't think there's any price probably too high for getting a guy like Sam Presti to run your team.

Mannix, you've done it again.

It's a great call.

He's accomplished his job.

He won the action movie.

He saved everybody in the burning building.

Now, if he leaves, you couldn't be mad about it.

There's also like if he left, like, I don't think the expansion is going to be a couple of years from now.

That's right around the time maybe you'd want to get away from this OKC thing, but he had an incredible run.

If I'm Seattle, I guess the precedence would be like Pat Riley in Miami 30 years ago.

And they brought him in.

He got a little taste of the team and the whole thing.

All right.

Well, we'll see what happens in the draft.

Let's do boxing really quick, though.

Casual boxing fan Bill is here.

Love it.

Big fight, Bill.

Big fight, Bill, who didn't even know that you were announcing one of the Paul brothers this weekend in Anaheim.

But who's he?

It's Jake Paul.

Who's he fighting this weekend?

He is fighting Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.,

who a lifetime ago was the middleweight champion of the world, has fallen on some hard times as of late, young Chavez Jr.

has had some documented drug and alcohol problems.

He actually lost to Anderson Silva in a boxing match, which was not a good look a couple of years ago.

But he's got a big name and he's got a decent following and there's a lot of Mexicans on the undercard.

So this is going to be an interesting arena for Jake Paul on Saturday.

Okay.

What's our big fight of the summer?

What are we looking forward to?

Usuk Dubois II is the most interesting right now.

Dubois knocked out by Usik 2023.

like almost it'll be almost to the day of the month when he got knocked out by usuk and he's back in with him but dubois has changed a lot over the last two years i mean, he has gotten like a heart and confidence transplant.

Like he gets with a new trainer and Don Charles, who's a very, very vocal guy, as much about, you know, motivation, kind of Mickey-esque as he is about tactics.

And he's helped him put together a run that includes Jarrell Miller, Philip Perkovich, and everybody saw the Anthony Joshua knockout.

Like that was the crowning achievement and the title-winning win.

for

Dubois.

Now he gets another crack at Usik, who just continues continues to be an all-time great, doesn't show any signs of slowing down.

But I think, you know, if this fight was made a year, year and a half ago, it wouldn't have interested me at all.

The fact that it's happening now after the AJ win, I think it's really interesting.

It's going to be like 80,000 fans in Wembley Stadium for that fight.

And I think

it's an interesting fight now that Dubois has been on this run.

I can't wait because nothing is more fun than throwing Usik in a parlay with other sports.

And he's just the most reliable leg every time.

Just keep betting on him till he loses.

I'm already so in the positive on Usik fights.

Like, it's everything's gravy from this point on, but I'm going to keep throwing him in there.

And also, Deontay Wilder's back bill on Friday in Kansas

places.

He is, he has come back, and he's looking to make one more run at 39 years old.

Ready to go.

Here's a good question for you that I guarantee your podcast partner, Sergio Mora, wouldn't set you up with an alley oop like this.

Who has a chance to be boxing's Caitlin Clark?

Ooh.

The out-of-nowhere person that would get everybody excited about the casual fans.

Is there anybody?

Because I've given up on Bocoli.

I sold my stock at a loss.

That's a good idea.

Yeah.

Boxing's Caitlin Clark.

Just that.

The out-of-nowhere,

somebody that

could kind of train, even somebody who could be like as big as Oscar was or Canelo was in the early years.

It's hard to

like, I thought Ryan Garcia could have been that guy two years ago.

That's

how that stock is done.

That stock's gone.

That stock is sold.

And the problem with being able to predict that is that the amateur ranks are garbage.

Like, nobody comes out of the Olympics anymore.

Like, Oscar

used that gold medal as a springboard.

You know, know, even Wilder.

Even Wilder.

Oh, wait.

Yeah, you want to get even more recent won a bronze medal.

Bronze Bomber used that as a springboard.

Like men's U.S.

Olympians have not had a good run for decades now.

So I don't know.

You know, there's a lot of teenagers I've seen coming up the ranks.

You know, here's one in the heavyweight division.

Moses Atauma.

I don't know if you've heard that name before, but he's fought a bunch of like B-level guys that has knocked them all out.

He has that.

He's 20 years old and has a little Mike Tyson vibe vibe to him.

A little bit of a Mike Tyson.

He's knocking guys out early, like very early.

He's not super big either.

He's like six foot three, but he's got this ridiculous hand speed that guys just can't keep up with.

He's fighting in August against Dillian White.

And Dillian White used to be a pretty good fighter in the UK, but has long since passed his prime.

That is going to be another spectacular knockout.

for Moz Satama.

That's a guy I would watch.

I don't know about the Caitlin Clark potential because he's a Brit,

but like, does he have Anthony Joshua potential in terms of popularity?

He might.

He might.

And if he fights over in the U.S.

more, maybe he gets one of those Lennox Lewis-type followings that made Lennox a star.

That's a good one.

Good name.

All right, Mannix.

Good luck in Anaheim.

I hope the Celtics don't do any more trades after we just finish this podcast leading with Celtics trades.

I would just, you know, the Hauser jersey you've got in your house there

might be might be be a collector's item.

Maybe not before the draft, but at some point this offseason could be a collector's item.

All right, thanks, Mannix.

Good to see you.

All right, that's it for the podcast.

Thanks to Chris Manix, thanks to Eduardo and Gahal, as always.

And don't forget, I'm coming right back after round one of the NBA draft on Wednesday night.

Be ready for that.

Don't forget about Die Hard with a Vengeance, the Rewatchables.

It's up, and I will see you in 24 hours.

I wanna see them

when we sung.

I don't have

a feeling with them.

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