Charles Barkley on Skinny Luka, the Eagles, LeBron, Jokic, Josh Allen, and His Uneasy ESPN Partnership

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I put up a 400th rewatchables on Monday night.

It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan.

We did American Gangster.

Dental, I think, moved into maybe second place for most rewatchable appearances, 12 or 13 for him.

This was a really fun episode.

You can find on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well.

We're doing a bunch of football stuff this week.

Ringer Fantasy football show is in high gear.

You have the Ringer Gambling Show, which got going.

The Ringer Tailgate, our college football, which did really, really well.

Ringer NFL was shield.

So we're humming, heading toward Thursday night.

It's going to be me and House on Thursday and maybe some other stuff.

I might do a fourth podcast this week.

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There's so much content.

I thought the guest we're about to have, Charles Barkley, was just going to be the first part of the show.

But man, once we got going, it was

almost an hour and a half.

We covered a lot.

We covered a lot of basketball, his football.

He comes on every year to do football stuff, make his picks.

He picked the Eagles correctly last year, but we ended up kind of diving into what happened at TNT and what's going to happen with him at ESPN and inside the NBA.

So

always great to have him.

He's honestly one of my favorite, favorite people.

And I was talking to Jimmy Kimmel once about this.

I think he might be the best guest.

If he's not the best guest, he's a one seed in whatever the tournament is.

Just can go on any talk show, can come on any podcast.

He's just the best.

So, anyway, he's the podcast today, the one and only Charles Barkley.

It's next.

We're going to take a break.

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All right, Grandpa Charles Barkley is here.

He's visiting the grandkids.

He's getting ready for football season.

He comes on every year to make picks.

And I think you picked the Eagles last year.

And even if you didn't, I'm going to say that you did.

I did pick the Eagles.

And I'm going to pick them again this year, brother.

Come back.

Give me the back-to-back.

Give me the explanation.

Well, they got the same offense.

I'm not related to this guy, but his name is Saquon Barkley.

I'm going to claim him because he's a Barkley.

He is phenomenal.

We still got the great wide receiver tandem, got a great tight end.

Jalen's phenomenal.

Now, defense is pretty young.

You know, we're going through that transition.

A lot of the older guys have moved on.

But I think Vic Fangio, by the end of the season, hell my guys rolling, man.

I can't wait.

What about the hunger issue after you've won the title?

It seemed like it hurt the Chiefs last year.

The Chiefs were even complaining during Super Bowl week about, oh man, it's starting to feel like old hat for us.

Do you believe with football when you haven't won yet getting back?

No, well, they won three.

Now there's a little bit difference.

Yeah, you know, when you won three, when we get to three, we might get a little bored, but we only have one.

Um,

but no, uh, first of all, I don't believe that because

if you get

because it takes so much to get to the NBA Finals

and to get to the Super Bowl, you don't take that for granted.

I mean, you know, the great Dan Marino said one time, he says, you know, I got there my first year and then 10, 12, 13 years later, I never got back again.

I remember having the same conversation with Allen Iverson.

He's like, man, I thought I was going to be in the finals like three or four times.

I got there one time.

I got there one time.

You know, I said, so this notion that you're going to get back there, man, when you get a chance to win the Super Bowl, because Bill, let me tell you something.

You have to be honest with yourself as a player.

It's hard to do.

There's very few times you actually have a chance to win the championship.

I played in the NBA for 16 years.

I think I had a chance to win the title four times.

That's it.

That's it.

You know, Shaquille, who's one of the greatest ever, he played in the league for over 20 years.

He won four championships.

So this notion that you're going to win all the time, no, man, when you got a chance to win, you better win.

Also, it's a percentages thing.

If you're in a 30-team league, only one team could win the championship every year.

Somehow, we've underrated how hard it is to win a championship and all the different things that can go wrong.

We just saw it last year with the Celtics.

You know, you win the title and then your best guy gets hurt.

Yeah, but it takes a perfect storm to win the championship.

You got to have a couple great players, obviously, but all your guys got to be in their prime, your role player, like the Denver Nuggets.

When they got the best player in the world, then they got rid of all their guys on the bench.

Yeah.

Thinking, like, you know, we got Joker,

we got Aaron, we got Michael Porter Jr., we got Jamal.

They got no bench.

They got rid of KCP and Bruce Brown.

Like everything has to go well.

I mean, think about this, though.

though.

If the Eagles don't go out against Saquon Buckley, they don't win the championship.

Right.

They do not.

So, man,

everything has to go well.

Listen, I love the Eagles no matter what, but if they don't go out and get Saquon, they don't win.

I mean, same thing.

Hey, how about this?

Your Celtics, if they don't go out and get Perzingas,

they don't win.

Also, I don't want to leave out Drew Holiday, but if they don't go out and get Perzingas two years ago, they don't win the championship.

Yeah, I said a couple podcasts ago that the Eagles reminded me of the 2000s Patriots with how they're putting the team together, be it like getting Jalen Carter with the ninth pick, right?

You go back and do that draft again.

He should have gone in the top three.

He falls to nine for a variety of reasons.

Trading for A.J.

Brown, trading a pick for him.

Like they've just consistently outthought teams, which I think you kind of have to do in the NBA now with all these new dumb rules they have.

Second apron thing.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, cut the bullshit.

They ain't got no dumb rules.

Let me tell you something.

I'm so glad you asked that question.

Is this a second apron defense?

No, no.

Yes.

Why did they have to come up with bullshit rules, Bill?

Because all these guys want to play together and not compete.

How many great players do you need on one team?

See, this is what bothers me in my generation.

They made up these rules.

Like these young people.

Well, if I had a dollar for every time I heard the second apron, why did Adam Silver have to put the second apron in?

Because LeBron got all his guys together.

KD wanted to go play with the Warriors.

Wait, y'all don't want to win the championship and just compete against each other?

Don't get mad at Adam Silver because y'all all want to play together and dominate the league because y'all don't want to compete.

I hate when I hear, man, the second apron's not fair.

What do you mean it's not fair?

If y'all stopped all wanting to play together, we wouldn't have to make up bogus-ass rules to stop y'all from playing together.

This is interesting because I completely disagree with you.

Okay.

I think they came up with it because the Players Association, I don't think, realized that putting these rules in is going to make all these teams blow up and you're basically going to be able to afford two or three guys max.

And then you're going to have to cut corners everywhere else.

Like the Celtics, they had no chance of keeping Drew Holiday and Porzingus on this team with this nucleus.

But everybody on that team was getting paid.

Right.

But I'm saying now,

but

they did a really smart thing with the way they stacked their roster.

Like, okay see now, they've made all these really smart moves to put the roster they have together, and they're not going to be able to keep it together, even though they were smart.

They're penalizing them.

I don't want to be penalizing people for smart.

They're paying their top three players, Bill.

Listen, as much as I love LeBron, when he started doing this thing with Bosh and Wade, that was the first wave.

The second wave was KD going to the Warriors.

Adam Silver had to do something.

We can't let one team hoard all the good players.

I mean, they had Kalay Steph and Draymond.

They didn't need KD.

Well, that's true, but that was a unique situation.

To me, it's like in the mid-situation.

Well, because the cap spiked.

That was the year like Joe Kim Noah.

They went there to dominate the league.

The regions, LeBron, went to Miami so he can get him into Wade and Bosch together.

If all these guys didn't want to play together, Bill, Adam Silver wouldn't have to come up with this sacred, this sucker apron thing.

That's the only reason.

Like, my sons,

they were paying KD,

Bill,

and Booker each $60 million.

How many good players do you need?

You think I don't want to play?

You don't think in my heyday, I want to play with KD kd and bradley bill

like like they're like we can't pay everybody they have to come up this is a bogus rule i agree with you but if all these guys don't want to play together adam silver wouldn't have to make up rules i was thinking it would be like in the mid 80s if philly had you and andrew toney and mo cheeks and moses malone and dr j

No, it'd be more like if Michael Jordan went to the Celtics to play with either if Michael Jordan, who was the best player in the league three or four years before he won the championship, if he either went to Boston or went to LA, that's what it would be like.

Yeah, but you stepped on my joke that I was going to make.

What's that?

I was going to say it would be like if Philly, because they couldn't afford anyone, had to trade Moses Malone for Jeff Ruhn and Cliff Robinson.

And then you were going to say, oh, no, that's actually what they did, and it was really stupid.

I was just

going to be the joke I made.

Right now, let me tell you something right now.

You know, I got a lot of love and respect for you.

It's too soon for that bullshit it's for 39 years let me tell you something i have been i have been i'm not i'm being serious for one second now i have been bitter and angry because that cost me at least one championship probably two

because i was just becoming a star yeah we had the number one pick in the draft

and Me and the guys went out to celebrate that night.

This is night before the draft.

And we got drunk as hell.

I'm like, God, I'm like my third year in the league.

I think that was the first time I became an all-star.

I'm excited for the future.

Andrew Tony's healthy at this point?

No, he's out the league.

But like, we still got a good team.

I got Hercy Hawkins, Johnny Dawkins.

And the only thing we were missing was a big guy.

I got Brad Doherty coming in for the next 10, 15 years.

I like my chances against anybody,

anybody.

Yeah.

And we go out and celebrate.

I get home around 2:30 in the morning.

My phone rings around five o'clock in the morning.

It's a great reporter in Philly, a guy named Phil Jasner.

He said, Charles, I need to talk to you.

I said, Phil, we've been out celebrating.

We got, I'm getting Brad Doherty tomorrow.

He's like, well, we better hold off on that.

The Sixers made a trade.

And I said, Phil, there's no way the Sixers are that stupid.

You trade the number one pick in the draft.

He says, and it gets worse.

I said, well, it can't get any worse than that.

I said, Phil, let me do it.

So I said, this true story, Bill.

I said, Phil, let me take a shower.

So I want to make sure I got my head together.

So I get in the shower, take a long, hot shower.

I call Phil back.

It's about 5.30 in the morning.

I feel explaining to me what's going on.

He says, well, you guys have just traded the number one pick in the draft to Cleveland.

I says,

you trade the number one pick in the draft,

number one, and you trade the number one pick.

That's stupid.

Then you trade him to the competition.

We have, right?

I think, if I remember correctly, I can't remember.

I think we had just played, we had just beaten the Calves in the playoffs.

I think we lost to the Bulls that year, if I remember correctly, but we had just played the Calves and beat them in a five-game series.

So not only you trade the number one pick, you trade him to the competition.

then they trade him for roy henson who's a good friend of mine who was a decent player but clearly wasn't going to be brad daughter i thought brad daughter was going to be an all where he was an all-star for the next 10 years which he was basically then phil says oh it gets worse i said what's worse than that he says you guys traded moses malone to the washington wizards

to the bullets at the time

for jeff rulin i said jeff rulin hadn't played basketball in two years Raided a bad back.

I said, And didn't they try to trade Dr.

J to Utah too?

That was the other thing that was floating around.

I think that might have been the year before.

It was some time, but it was just for this one draft.

And I says, So you're telling me, and I see, because I thought Moses, Moses, who was my mentor, who helped me lose 50 pounds to become an all-star, I thought he'd been great for me and Brad Doherty for the next two or three years.

Then he could walk away, retire.

Plus, the league was big back then because you had Samson Elijah and you had Mikhail in Paris.

Yes, oh, I had to beat Bird McHale in Paris, yeah.

And I was like, Jeff Rulin hadn't played in two years, and I think me and Jeff Rulam played two games together, Bill.

So, not only were we traded the number one pick in the draft for Roy Henson, we traded Moses to DC for

Jeff Rulin and Cliff Robertson.

And from that point on, we went in a spiral, obviously, uh, downhill,

uh, because

the celtics were on their last legs it was between the pistons and bulls come in between

yeah but you know if they gave me brad daughter i would have felt pretty good about myself because the bulls the bulls didn't have anybody who can handle brad daughter down they had bill cartwright right i was like no i'm good i'm good and man from that point on i was so angry Then I had to spend another four years just sucking in Philly.

And it was brutal.

It was brutal.

But I blame the Sixers for making arguably one of the worst trades in NBA history.

Well, so then you leave in 92.

And I was going to ask you about this later, but let's do it now.

So you're watching Luca Donchich.

He's now skinny Luca.

He's got the eye of the tiger.

He wants to prove Dallas wrong.

You were in this exact same spot.

When you were headed to Phoenix, you were in the dream team that year.

You're in the best shape of your life.

You're motivated.

You want to stick it to Philly.

Like, do you see parallels when you're watching and reading the stuff about about him right now?

I think Luca is a great player.

I think he's a lot younger than I was, to be honest with you.

And listen,

as long as I got some help, because it was interesting, I had zero idea where I was going to go.

I remember like the last couple of years, they had me on the cover of the sporting news.

It was like eight different teams trying to get me, and I didn't care.

I just wanted to get the hell out of there.

And what's really interesting about the story, Bill, so that summer I get arrested in Milwaukee for fighting.

And I beat just America.

I beat that rap.

I've been arrested a few times for fighting, but I've never been found guilty.

Let's get that out the way.

So

let me write that down.

Yeah.

So we're in Milwaukee.

I'm on trial for that week.

I spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers.

There was no way I was going to get convicted because I didn't do anything.

So me and my attorney,

we spent the whole week because I didn't want to piss people in in Philadelphia off because Philly was great to me.

Yeah, we spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers.

I said, basically, I said, Hey, guys, I don't want to come out publicly because Philadelphia's been great to me.

I love the fans, they've always been great to me, but y'all suck as an organization.

I will never

play for y'all again, ever,

ever.

So, I get acquitted Friday morning, catch a flight back to Philly.

I bought a whole plane drinks, Bill.

I said, y'all drink up.

Nobody knows what's going on.

I just bought, I just got acquitted.

So I bought the whole plane drinks.

I said, I don't give a damn.

I didn't know you could do that.

Yeah, Bill, but that's when you have to pay for drinks back in the day, remember?

Like, dude, we flew commercial my first

four years in the league.

At that time, we were, remember, well, first class got free drinks.

You have to pay for them and coach.

See, Bill, you've been famous and rich for so long.

You forget about the old days.

I just had never heard about anyone buying a plate of drinks.

Well, you had to pay for drinks and coach back then.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But so that was good.

That's a good.

That's it.

That's good.

When I get the letter, what's really ironic, which is really crazy, I get home that Friday night.

I'd ordered a set of, because every time you went to Phoenix,

you got fitted at paying for for a set of golf clubs.

So I had forgot, because I think we went out, well, we always went out west for Christmas, got the circus was in town in Philly.

We always did a two-week trip during Christmas, got the circus in town.

They had that in Boston, too.

The team would just disappear.

Yeah, for two and a half weeks.

Yeah.

So I get back home on a Friday night.

And me and the boys, there's a set of ping golf clubs on my front porch.

I live in a gated community.

They put a big box.

I get that.

Oh, I ordered these golf courses, these clubs back in

December.

I totally forgot I ordered the golf club.

We go out and celebrate.

Have a great weekend.

Sunday night, I get a call from my agent.

This is Sunday night.

We're going to release the letter Monday morning.

I get a call from my agent Sunday night.

You've been traded to the Phoenix Suns.

You got like an eight o'clock flight to Phoenix the next day.

So it was really crazy.

I got the golf club from Phoenix at my house that Friday.

And we're going to release the letter

Monday morning.

I get traded that Sunday night.

I'm on an 8 o'clock fight to Phoenix that morning.

I think it was like in August sometime, if I remember correctly.

So you weren't angry about it.

You were relieved.

I was relieved that it was over because I had to hear the rumors for three years.

Yeah, and you knew it was coming.

Whereas Luca had no idea it was coming.

and it seemed like he got blindsided for a month.

You know, that's one of the weirdest things.

I don't even know how you keep that a secret.

Well, you keep it a secret when it's the two GMs basically who know each other and that's 100%.

Yeah, the two GMs.

But you know, it's going to be interesting because

I think

the Rockets, CNBA is going to be interesting next year because I think the Rockets and the Nuggets probably had the best summer.

Yeah.

Obviously, getting KD is going to make going to really improve the Rockets, but they finally got Luca some help.

I love what the Nuggets did this summer.

Me too.

But, you know, obviously, if you got Luca and LeBron, you're going to be competitive.

But

I don't think it's earth-shattering like the Lakers are going to win the West.

Like I say, OKC ain't going anywhere.

I think if you had to rank them in in order,

I'd go OKC,

Rockets,

Denver.

And then

Rockets over Denver.

Well, because I, man, I'm telling you, they are so deep.

They didn't give up anything to really get KD.

Yeah.

I would have Denver too and the Rockets three.

I would have Minnesota over the Lakers, though.

I just think the LeBron, the age that he's at, and the defensive stuff.

Luca's in shape.

That has another element.

Like I say,

we're not going to, this ain't like March Madness, where when people be arguing over who's 69 and 70, Bill.

I always love every year that March Madness.

Somebody's pissed off.

I'm like, yo, man.

Nobody goes around saying I'm number 69 and 70.

If you're not one of the top 68 teams, shut the hell up.

Don't be saying we're not the, we should have got in.

You played with a couple of DeAndre Ayton types in your career.

I'm a little dubious of that one, too.

It's the guy who's the super talented guy who's been disappointing everywhere he's been.

But maybe this time it'll be different, especially when it's a center.

Those guys usually don't like it.

No, you know what's going to be different?

He's going to be a free agent.

Those are the most dangerous guys.

One year.

Guys who should be paid year by year.

Well, like like there used to be a thing back in my day.

One of the reasons the NBA started cutting salaries and short-term deals, there were guys, and I can name some guys who played like crap for two or three years and then all of a sudden became Bill Russell their last year.

True, right?

And then, as soon as they signed that big deal, went back to being a regular dude.

So I think what to piggyback on your point, I think that's what, that's one of the things that's going to make the Lakers interesting because Aiden got to ball out this year because if he does not play well, he's not going to get no big deal.

And let me tell you something.

If he don't ball out playing with LeBron and Luca, he ain't never going to ball out.

You talk about the perfect scenario, but he's going to be so dangerous this year because he's going to be a free agent.

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Well, the OKC, though, finding out after the playoffs that Jalen Williams had a fucked up wrist the whole time.

And we didn't even know about it, the fact that he wasn't healthy and still played well, the fact that they seem like young, you know, that I know you were at some of the games too.

Like, they felt young and nervous in certain spots, and I think Indiana, there was a couple moments, especially game four, when they really could have potentially tilted that series, and they just kind of weren't good enough to do it.

I wonder if OKC is going to be better.

I never thought OKC was going to lose.

The only time I thought they were going to lose when old boys switched up the starting lineup, and I was like, what the hell?

Right.

What are you doing?

I read the scent.

Yeah.

I was like, what are you doing?

The only other person I saw do something that stupid was Avery Johnson.

If you go back, we.

207, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

We went back.

We were sitting there in the studio that night when we were like,

what just happened right here?

And we were sitting in the studio, like, Avery Johnson changed up his starting lineup to go against Don Nelson Smallball.

They're like, why would you do that?

You got to do that.

Another win 67 games.

You the number one seed, and you change up.

And

when Boyd did that this year, I was like, what the hell?

Then they're

losing game one, and then they blew him out in game two, but it didn't matter because they got the split.

Then they won game three,

and he finally went back to his enormous lineup, like, yo, man, you don't change up things when you got the best team.

You've been the best team in the NBA all season.

And I thought that was the only time I felt like

I was like, yo, man, don't do that again.

You almost cost your team the championship.

But I've said, I said midway past all-star game, I started making predictions.

I said, nobody can beat this Oklahoma City team four times in a row.

They're too good, man.

They're one of the deepest teams we've ever had in the NBA.

They remind me a lot of the old Pistons back in the Isaiah Thomas days.

Like, everybody talked about Isaiah and Joe Dumars, who were great, but Hardenstein is Lambert.

And then coming off the bench, they had Sally, James Edwards, Benny Johnson, Mark Aguire.

I mean, they had like 10 players, like, and you can just plug them in.

And it was amazing to watch them play.

And they're going to be tough.

The only thing you got to worry about with them is they're going to get everybody's best slap next year, and it's going to be a shock to their system.

They've been like the cool little kids for the last couple of years.

They finally reached their potential, but now when you hunt it, man, it's a different animal.

It's a different animal.

Sometimes the teams will go up a level defending.

Like, I remember the 92 Bulls were like that after they got the first one.

They were like a good bench.

They were true the next year.

They had Michael Jordan.

I don't, listen.

You know, all this stuff.

You know, I love talking about players.

And people always ask me the difference between Michael Jordan, Kobe Kobe Bryant, and LeBron.

Because those are the three best players I've seen in my generation.

The two most important players ever are Maddie Johnson and Larry Bird.

They made the NBA what it is today.

But the three best players I've ever seen were Michael, Kobe, and LeBron.

And I'll tell you the difference in the three.

Kobe and LeBron, excuse me, Michael and Kobe are dangerous.

They'll kill your ass.

LeBron's a nice guy.

And I said, and that's not a knock.

He's still great, great, great, but he's a nice guy.

Michael and Kobe aren't nice guys.

Like, they're different.

And that the one thing about OKC, even though I think Shay is a great, great player, he to me is more like LeBron.

He's a really nice guy.

He's not out there trying to kill you.

And I think that's the difference.

And

Jalen, they got a bunch of really, really good players, and that's fine.

But I always tell people the difference between Michael and Kobe, man, they are dangerous.

I mean, they really wanted to kill you and humiliate you.

And that's not like, I think Tom Brady's like that.

Yeah.

No, he is.

Yeah.

Like,

and I think there's very few players

out of all the great players I've ever met in my life, I think Michael and Kobe, Tom Brady,

Roger Clemens,

like I think they, I think they want who?

Roger Clemens.

Yeah, Roger Clemens.

Where'd that come from?

He'll throw at your head in a minute.

Right.

You're talking about mean spirited great athletes.

Yes.

Like they're going to do whatever it takes to win.

They ain't worried about who liked them and they ain't worried about your feelings.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

And like everybody's not built like that.

I'm not even built like that.

Like I think I'm a pseudo-tough guy.

Like, I want to win, but like,

I'm just not like those guys.

Yeah, you're still the guy buying drinks for everybody on the plane.

MJ would have been playing cards.

Yeah, and MJ wouldn't have paid for other people's drinks, just probably his and whoever he was playing cards with.

What you just laid out, I think about a lot, because the guy, that all-time guy that everybody says was like that was Bill Russell.

Like he just wanted to destroy people.

Yes.

Everything he did was about trying to get in somebody's head intimidate people like with wilt he made friends with wilt to try to get closer to him to make wilt go less hard at them when they played all he wanted to do was win and and take care of business end of games the mj stat that i love i think it was like eight straight years he never lost three straight games ever he just wouldn't he wouldn't accept it that like there's nobody who's been wired like that that's why

the closest i've seen is kobe i saw a picture today as a matter of fact i was scrolling and they got a picture of Magic Jonathan.

He was talking about Magic.

He's talking about Michael's the best he's ever seen as far as talent, work ethic, and mental toughness.

Michael has this look in his eyes, Bill.

And I says, that's Michael Jordan right there.

Like they had,

and nobody else notices this because Magic is dribbling the ball.

Michael's guarding him.

But they got Magic's quote.

And the look in Michael's eyes, I was saying to myself, that's the guy.

That's the guy right there.

I remember the picture.

He's kind of looking up.

He looks like a serial killer.

Like a serial killer.

Like a serial killer.

That's 100%.

Let me tell you this quick Olympic story.

So, John Thompson, who's one of the greatest men I've ever met in my life.

So he, I get cut from the Olympic trials.

And my coach, Sonny Smith, says, hey, I got a call from John Thompson.

He wants to talk to you.

And he says, come to my office at this certain time.

He says, he puts him on the speakerphone.

He says, Sonny, I just want you to know.

Bobby was an asshole.

Charles deserved to make the Olympic team.

He was the second best player there.

Bobby didn't like Charles.

He never told us why.

Charles got down to the final 20, but he was never, he was the.

second best player.

He should have made the team, but Bobby just didn't like him.

He was the second best player there.

And And I said, Coach, I really appreciate the call.

And I want to thank you for the kind words.

And he said, he said, young, I said, why did he not like me?

He said, he never told why, but he just didn't like you.

And I said, that's fine.

So he hangs up.

And Sonny says to me, wow, I'm a little surprised.

I says,

what do you mean?

He says, I thought you were the best player in the country.

I said, well, I'm fucking not.

I said, coach.

I saw the greatest player I've ever seen in my life.

We became friends.

It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life.

He's a little taller than me.

He's about 6'6 ⁇ .

He's jet black.

He can outrun everybody.

He can outjump everybody.

And he is out here trying to go.

And he, and I said, he said, what's his name?

I said, his name is Michael Jordan.

He says, and I think Michael is either a freshman or a sophomore.

He wasn't the man as a coach.

And I'm used to playing against Melvin Turpin, Sam Bowie, Kenny Scott Walker,

Dominique Wilkins, and those flowers at Georgia.

I played against Hakeem in college.

So I'm not playing against Slam.

I played against Five Slam Pajama.

Yeah.

As a freshman or a sophomore, I can't remember which one it was.

So I'm used to playing against like real deal dudes.

I mean, Florida had a guy named Ronnie Williams and Vernon DeLance that they were awesome.

And I'm like, I said, dude, this dude is something scary.

I've never seen coach.

Like I said, he's a little taller than me.

He can outrun everybody.

I said, and he got an attitude.

He's out here.

And man, that was the first time I played against Michael.

And it was scary, Bill.

Like I say, he was going.

I see Roy Williams talk about, like, I had to tell Michael to stop going so hard every day, even in practice.

I mean, he's wired.

I'll give you another story.

So we're playing in the Tournament Americas in Portland, Oregon.

we playing puerto rico so me david robins and chuck daley

and david robins go play 18 holes that morning so we're done we said chuck said let's go get some rest we got a game tonight michael said i'm gonna play 18 more chuck says we got a game tonight

he says i'm gonna play 18 more so he we leave he goes play 18

We went back and got some rest.

We get to the game and Michael, we all getting dressed and David, he's like, David, you got this dude charles you got this dude irving you got this dude michael looks up says i got him

and my and chuck says he's the point guard michael says i got him

chuck says okay bill

we start the game michael scream at this little kid from puerto rico

Don't you ever fucking say anything about me in the newspaper.

He's guarding this dude like it's game seven.

This is after 36 holes, Bill.

He's screaming at this little kid and we're looking around like, yo, man, there's something wrong with this dude.

He's screaming at this kid from Puerto Rico.

Don't you ever say anything about me.

I read what you said in the newspaper.

He's doing that little drill, that little drill where you turn people, which most people, they're fast enough, you can't turn them.

He's guarding this dude like it's game seven.

And he's screaming at this kid.

That was the first time I realized he didn't have a full deck.

so then we're we're in the olympics and we're playing croatia yeah

they got tony kucos who's averaging like 40 points a game

him and scotty and michael says

chuck we're gonna take turns guarding scott uh tony kukos

we're not gonna let him score guys averaging 40 points a game you know one thing about those international teams they run the same play

for the same guy Yeah,

it was one of it's the best defensive performance I've ever seen.

These dudes are talking in timeouts, they're screaming at us,

let us get over the pick, just head for a second.

We're going on there on this one.

Like, they're the guarding this dude.

They're like, we're not going to let him score.

I think he finished like some seven for 30, something like that.

It was some of the best.

That's why I said Michael is wired different.

It was beautiful and amazing.

Those are the two most interesting things that I've ever seen him do, man.

He's just wired differently.

Yeah, that's why the Pippin stuff was sad after the last dance that that relationship went sideways because as great as Jordan was, I always felt like those guys together were its own kind of awesome thing.

And I don't know, I always felt like Jordan appreciated it.

And then Pippin feels like he seems like he's underappreciated with that whole aspect.

And it's really sad.

You know first of all i have never won a championship but if you won six championship that's pretty damn special yeah that should you should be bonded by that but but jealousy is a dangerous thing man yeah jealousy

jealousy is a dangerous thing and it's really unfortunate um

michael jordan made us all a lot of money

right he made us all a lot of money NBA-wise, shoe apparel-wise, clothing deals, commercials.

See, Bill, that's the thing a lot of people don't understand.

Athletes were not making commercials until Michael Jordan.

Nobody had a shoe deal.

You saw that movie Air.

Nobody was getting a percentage of shoes until Michael Jordan.

He's made.

He's throwing that converse.

Yeah, he's made.

They weren't making no percentage of shoes back then.

They were getting a little money, him and Magic, but they wasn't making any money.

Michael's mom said, hey, we're going to get a percentage of shoes.

Michael said, no, we don't do that.

He says, Oh, well, we're gonna do it now.

I started getting paid because of magic Michael Jordan, but like I say, nobody was making money for shoes.

Nobody was shooting.

Now,

seeing jocks in commercials like saying hello.

So shout out to Michael Jordan for making us all a lot of money, brother.

You know, speaking of commercials, LeBron did that Forever King commercial.

Did you see it?

That Nike thing?

He did a

I probably saw it, but didn't pay it that much attention.

Yeah, it was like this,

I don't know, 45-second commercial about all the people he's vanquished.

And it's like just close-up shots of him with a crown on.

I think he's, I don't really understand what his MO is.

And if you talk about it, it's like, well, you're being critical.

And it's like,

this guy's one of the best players of all time.

And it's.

That's the only thing I hate about LeBron.

First of all, he's a great, great player.

He's an amazing person, really nice guy.

But for him and his guys, if you don't say he's the greatest ever, it's like you could commit treason.

Right.

You're either for them or against them.

It's like, can I just say you're one of the greatest sports of all time?

No, you cannot.

You cannot.

If you do not say he's the greatest of all time, you're committing treason.

Man, you can't even mention Michael, Kobe, Bill Russell.

I mean, that's a faction of Kareem people.

I actually feel like Kareem is the one guy who get left out.

100% agree.

Yeah.

I mean, because nobody has a better career, high school, college, and pros, than Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

And the four years at UCLA that he could have been in the NBA just putting up stats and he would have been one of the best guys.

And, you know, so, but that's the only thing I don't like about LeBron and his guys.

They're like, if you don't say he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, they hate you.

And it's really sad.

And it pisses me off when it happens, too.

But, yo, man.

It's just people's opinion.

Because first of all, most of these young punks today in the public, they never saw Michael Jordan play.

Right.

They never,

most of them else never saw Kobe play.

They definitely didn't see Kareem or Bill Russell play.

But for some reason, this generation, oh, you're being blasphemous, Sam LeBron.

And listen, I got number love and respect for LeBron because I said this before.

He's probably had the best career ever for high school players.

Him and Kareem.

No, I'm talking as far as his high school players.

Because if you remember some, Bill, Kobe struggled in the beginning.

Right.

Kevin Garnett struggled in the beginning.

All those high school players struggle a lot.

Remember, they booed Kobe early in his career, but I can say this: LeBron James is the only player in my 40 years in the NBA who came right out of high school and played well.

I had his first game.

I had his first game.

LeBron James in my 40 years, like Kobe became great.

Kevin Garnett became great.

McGrady, all these guys.

But I can honestly say LeBron James is the only one who came out of high school who played well right away.

I think he's in a weird spot with this Luca situation because from the moment it's time to move on, brother.

Well, but I don't think he feels like it's time to move on.

Like when they did the press conference, Kareem, Bill, see, this is the problem.

Yeah.

Kareem did it with Magic.

Tim Duncan did it with Tony Parker, Ginobly, and Kaiwi Kawali.

He doesn't want to do it, though.

You have to, Bill.

Listen, I agree with you.

I'm just telling you what I'm watching.

Like, when they put the statement out and they said, like, we got to be more committed to winning a title, it's like, you've got Luke on your team.

They're not trying.

Yeah.

They went out and got Luka Duncan.

They're not trying.

Hey, man, I don't like when guys.

The baton has to be passed from everybody.

It's passed from everybody.

The Lakers haven't been relevant.

The bubble was the last time they've been relevant.

I hear people talking about

LeBron's putting up good stats, but the Lakers have not been relevant since the bubble.

Now, are they relevant?

Bringing in Luca helps, but I'm not going to pick them.

They lost to the Timberwolves last year.

who were they're not relevant with OKC,

the Nuggets, or the Rockets, in my opinion.

I'm not going to pick the T-Woods or the Lakers over those top three teams.

Well, you saw it from the course of your career.

Like the league is about young guys and then guys in their prime and then older guys trying to hang on.

Yeah, but

once you're in that last group, it's so much tougher to go 100 games.

Yeah, but it's easier.

It should make it easier.

Kareem, like, okay.

I bet Kareem won.

Yeah, you can't count Kareem, though i mean karim had the most unstoppable shot in the world i know that but you know what you say magic were responsible for the last him and james worthy probably were responsible for the last two championships and for tim duncan who's the greatest power for it ever yeah

i think duncan parker genobley

not duncan duncan uh excuse me parker ginoble and kawhi lennon are probably responsible for the last two championship there's nothing wrong he still get the championship ring if the lakers win the championship and Luca wins the MVP, don't LeBron get a championship ring?

Come on, man.

Stop it, Bill.

I'm on your side.

I agree with you.

I don't know what he sees.

Like, because the move would be, I've got the, I lucked out.

I have one of the best four guys in the league on my team again.

How do I fit in at the age I'm at

to add him?

I know.

So, but I don't know if he wants it because it seems like if he could have forced a trade over the summer, he probably would have.

I would look at it as like this is an amazing situation you can pick your spots you can probably play 55 games during this season luca will do all the work and then turn it on in the playoffs for for 10 weeks and you win you win if you make the finals you win if the team succeeds it's like ernie johnson ernie wins when your show's good it's not Ernie's not like, I got to get my takes off today.

Ernie's like, I have these three guys.

I have to make them better.

I win if the show's good.

That's how LeBron has to do it.

You know what's interesting about you saying that?

I hate these guys

so much who whine about that bill.

As a guy

who was dying for better players around me,

when you see

these things where guys can't play together, you're saying to yourself, like, Kyrie didn't want to play with LeBron.

I'm like, why not?

Right.

Kobe didn't want to play with

Kobe and Shaq.

I'm like, what do you mean y'all don't want to play together that got that got personal though i know

that's my point these guys drive me crazy like i'm dying to play with other great players and like who wants to come to philly and play with me who want to come to phoenix and play with me like when i hear these guys like i want to be the guy like i want to be the guy too on a winning team I don't have to be,

I don't have to be the guy, especially when I'm not the same same player.

When I hear this stupidity, like Kobe and Shaq probably should have won three more championships.

If Shaq had said, hey, you know what, Kobe,

you're responsible for the last championship, probably.

I probably can win a couple more if I just shut the hell up and play.

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And this is why I defend Duncan so much.

And Duncan now, as the years pass and people could just look up his stats and are like, oh, this guy's better.

And this guy, like Duncan could have averaged, I don't know, five, six more points a game.

He could have had better everything if he wanted to, but he was all about like, we're winning 70% of our games.

I'll come in and out when they need me.

And when they really need me, guess what?

I'm the best power forward of all time and I'll be there.

But he was very generous with, you know, all he cared about was how the team was doing.

And he was inclusive and how to raise guys' levels.

And I don't know why we don't treasure that as a basketball fan.

You guys, I'm not a you guys in this.

I'm on your side on this.

You guys in the media, not you, particularly jackasses on television.

It's like, whose team is it?

And things like that.

And that's like, I'm sitting back watching.

I'm like, yo, man.

Like, let's say hypothetically, is it Dr.

J's championship or Moses' championship?

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

That's why, that goes back to my original point.

Man, I would have loved to won the championship with another guy beside me.

That's what drives me crazy about these fools on television.

They go on TV every day.

Like, I was, you know,

this weekend.

This weekend, I was saying to myself, oh, shit,

I would hate to be Arch Manic and Bill Belichick this week because I know how the losers on television are going to react.

I know how stupid the public is.

They don't even understand.

But I was saying to myself, man,

I'd hate to be Arch Manning Monday

and I'd hate to be Bill Belichick Tuesday because I know how these fools on television are.

I knew they were going to crush Arch Manning and

I knew they were going to crush Bill Belichick.

And I sent Bill a text Monday.

I said, hey, man,

because you know, me and Bill are close.

I said,

I just want you to know,

I know it's a lot of people hoping you fail,

but I always want you to know you're my guy, and I'm for you.

Have a great season.

But as I knew

this morning,

they were going to crush him.

That's the way this business is now.

It's unfortunate.

And like I say, I knew Archie Manning's played one football game of significance.

He's an 18, 19-year-old kid.

He goes against a hell of a team against Ohio State.

And I said,

he's on the road.

On the road.

First big star.

First huge spotlight.

I said, man, these guys, these fools on TV are going to kill him Tuesday.

Excuse me.

Kill him Sunday and Monday.

But that's the environment we're in now, Bill.

And it's really unfortunate.

I mean, it's really unfortunate because

that's the way you get recognized and make money now.

And that's sad.

I thought it really hurt the NBA the last couple years.

And, you know, you guys took some bullets on it, too, from from talking about old generation versus new generation.

You guys were too negative about the current game.

But

I actually was more on your side with some of that stuff.

The stuff I don't like is when we're, you know, and there's people that do it that I actually like.

Like you and I both like Stephen A.

But when he was on the when he was on the NBA Countdown show and every halftime is about this guy's got to step up because they're losing because of him.

Where is he?

And it's just, I don't know.

It's just not for me.

I think what we're losing, number one, you have a great point, but this

we got so many great players in the NBA, but these fools spend all their time comparing, like, Michael Jordan's dead, okay?

Michael Jordan's dead.

He's been retired forever.

Yeah, over 20 years.

These fools spend all their time comparing him to LeBron.

I'm like, why?

Michael Jordan's been dead for 20-some years.

Let's let LeBron be LeBron.

We're starting to do the stupid shit in golf now.

Man, Scottie Sheffield is just as good as Tiger.

I'm like, damn, y'all just see him ruin the NBA.

We can't appreciate LeBron's greatness or Steph Curry's greatness.

We got to compare him to a guy that's been dead for 20 years.

I'm like, why can't Michael Jordan is great, but so is LeBron.

So is Kobe.

So is Steph, so is Joker.

Why do y'all have to get on TV?

First, because it's they got no talent,

they got no talent, Bill, because they know people are gonna go on the internet and argue with them, or going on the internet on these radio shows and argue with them.

That's why they do it.

Now, I see these fools doing it in golf.

Scotty Scheffler, he's great.

I love Scotty Scheffler, he's good as tiger.

I'm like, well,

I'm sitting here like

Scotty Scheffler is 29

and he's won four majors.

Tiger won four majors at 24.

After winning three amateurs in a row before he even turned out.

I'm not sure.

And Tigers won 30 times by then.

And Scotty's won 17 times.

He's 29.

Why can't we just appreciate his greatness?

Why y'all have to be lazy

and just bring that up?

Tigers is a once-in-a-generation type player.

Scotty, if he keeps rolling, he's the best in this generation.

But these guys, they need hot takes on television and radio because they need foods to click on them on the internet or call dance to their radio shows.

It drives me crazy.

I says, Michael's the best I've ever seen.

I love him.

I respect him.

The next I've seen is Kobe.

Now, the last 20 years has been Steph and LeBron.

I don't have to compare them.

I can appreciate their greatness.

Scotty is the best we got going today.

I don't have to compare him to Tiger or Jack or Arnie or Gary Player, but

these guys have become lazy because they know people are going to get on their computer and come after them.

Or a lot of them have radio shows.

I have friends in Philadelphia where I live during the summer.

I'd play golf with them in the morning.

Yeah.

And I said, What are you going to talk about today?

They're like, We're going to talk about Cole, Michael, Kobe, LeBron,

guys like that.

I'm like, Why are you doing that?

Is Jalen Hurts good enough, even though he already won a Super Bowl?

Yes,

can you win two Super Bowls with Jalen Hurts?

That's our topic today.

Yeah, and they tell me the truth.

They're like, Charles, you don't understand how the media works.

I said, This is in the 80s and 90s, Bill.

And they said, This is how the media works.

We got to get fools to call in and argue with us for four hours.

We don't believe half the shit that we say.

I said, What?

He says, I'm on radio for four hours.

Yeah.

If I say Michael's the best, half the people are going to call in and say he was.

The other half going to call in and talk about

LeBron, he's the greatest.

But then some sprinkler is going to come in, talk about Bill and Wilt.

He says, that's what our job is in the media.

We're on radio for four hours.

And then I was like, wow, that's interesting.

And these are some of my great friends who have some of the most popular shows in Philadelphia in the 80s and 90s.

They're like, our job is just to get people and call in and argue for four hours.

It taught me a lot about the media.

Now, the difference is now is they're all on TV making millions of dollars.

Yeah.

And it's, and that was one of the reasons I was hesitant to do the ESPN deal, to be honest with you.

I was going to ask you about that.

Because I don't want to do that.

Like, I want to go on TV.

One of the reasons I love doing your podcast, I got, and I'm not saying it's going to be a podcast.

I don't do many podcasts.

I like you.

And I know you're going to be honest and a straight shooter.

Even if I disagree.

Right.

I know.

One of the reasons I hated Skip Bayless, like, yo, man,

people, you can disagree with people, but people believe television is so powerful.

People believe what we say.

They do.

And I don't mind agreeing or disagreeing with people, but I ain't going to say shit just to get people to call in and argue with me.

That's one reason I like you.

I know you're like, I'm going to try to do my job to the best of my my abilities.

I don't care who clicks on to me.

I ain't trying to get people to like me or dislike me.

That's the reason I first, I developed a hatred for Skip Baileys.

Like, yo, man,

you can't, like, people believe what we say.

Right.

Like, I had one of these.

I had one of these a couple of weeks ago because I genuinely think Josh Allen was the best QB in the league last year, even though the results didn't happen.

He wasn't.

And I was saying, like, so trying to figure out who's the quarterback hierarchy heading into this year.

And I'm like, I just think Josh is the best QB.

I know Mahomes has the resume.

I don't think he was that good last year by his standards.

And I can't put him first based on what he did three years ago.

So

I've got friends who work at ESPN.

Yeah.

And there's a racial component of it, too.

Right.

Well, and I, the Yoko Jimbiad thing was brutal.

That was the worst.

I said, they asked me my opinion.

I said, I think Josh Allen's MVP.

Right.

They're like,

but what about Lamar?

Lamar had a great year.

He's amazing.

I love Lamar.

I said, but your question is, who had the best year?

I says, who's Derek?

Who's Josh Allen got in the backfield?

Now, the Cook kid is a good player.

He's not Derrick Henry.

He's not Derrick Henry Henry Henry Henry.

Which coaching staff would you rather have?

Which infrastructure?

Who are Josh Allen wide receivers?

I think the best one

was Shakir.

Shakir.

Yeah.

and then the kid who the coleman kid who's the rookie and then you got the kid who comes to games who who's naked who's naked

and i says i says josh do not have and they had a better record and they beat him head to head i said so if he's got derrick henry the best running back in the league he's got better wide receivers But Josh Allen, they thought the Bills were going to take a step back because they cut everybody after last year.

I picked him to miss the playoffs last year.

They lost so many guys.

They didn't even see conceivable.

They didn't put down the Ravens.

Yeah.

Why was he not the MVP?

If this was the NBA, we'd be going, Josh Allen needs more help.

And Josh Allen's agents would be leaking stuff.

They got to make a move.

They need a star receiver.

And that's another thing I hate about the move,

to be honest with you.

The ESPN move.

Yes.

These guys get on TV every day and say,

are they wasting

Giannis's career?

Giannis won a title already.

I know, but I'm saying they're wasting the Joker's career.

And I'm saying,

he won a title.

They got to get LeBron some help.

Yeah.

And I'm saying, well, wait a minute.

I don't remember y'all saying that shit about me and Patrick Ewing.

Y'all never got on TV and said, we're wasting Charles Barthie career in Philadelphia.

I was saying it, but I was in a bar in Boston.

I didn't have a microphone.

It drives me crazy because that's this thing now.

If you don't win every year, they want you to move.

They're like,

Giannis got to move.

They're wasting him.

I'm like, wait a minute.

I was in Philly.

I had no help.

Patrick Young was in New York.

He had no help.

I remember y'all getting on TV saying, help Patrick help Charles, but on TV now,

should Giannis want to leave Milwaukee?

Should the Joker want to leave Denver?

I'm like, damn,

what happened

when y'all have this new dynamic?

I'm like, damn, I want to help in Philly.

Y'all didn't never say Charles needed help.

But now, every star, like, he's got to get out of there.

I know, but think about Dirk Nowitzki in 2011 is the best example of this, where we could have done this whole cycle with him for four years after they lose that Warriors and he stays and he ends up winning there and that's like the best title anyone won in the last 15 years.

That's like two titles.

Yeah.

But there's this new thing.

There's this new thing now, Bill, when they see a great player, especially if he's in a small market, they're like, he's got to get out of there.

He needs to move.

I'm like, damn, where were y'all when I was in Philly?

Right.

When I was going out there with Shelton Jones, no disrespect.

When I was going out there with my new bull and Shelton Jones, I remember y'all saying, hey, we got to get Charles some help in Philly.

Some of it's the people around the players, too.

It's the agents, it's the handlers.

They'll have a trainer now, and they're just kind of constantly, you should be bigger.

You should be a bigger star in a bigger market.

You got to get more money.

You're better than this guy.

You're better than your teammate.

And then you start planting the seeds and you go.

You mentioned the ESPN thing.

I talked on a pod a couple months ago, and I feel like I have a pretty unique perspective because I did the NBA show there and I saw how they do shows and how they prioritize the pregame, the halftime, the commercial breaks, giving people time to speak.

And the reason you guys had the best studio show of all time, other than the talent, was that you had these producers that actually let it breathe, that gave you like eight, nine minutes at halftime in a row to have a conversation.

Do you feel like you're going to be able to do that at ESPN?

And what happens if you can't?

Well, number one, thank you for the compliment.

We don't know.

This has been one of the worst.

TNT just sucks, to be honest with you, Bill.

They made this deal.

They haven't told us when we're going to work.

They haven't told us how it's going to work.

Because we've been talking behind the scenes.

Like, do we have to, after the game, are we going to get any time?

Are they going to say, hey, you guys got to go to Sports Center?

Well, listen, they've always gone right to Sports Center.

That's always how it's worked.

And I've asked that question.

Like,

you're right.

That's the best part of our show.

After the game, we can have conversation and have fun.

Are they going to say, you guys got three minutes, five minutes, 15, 20, 30, 45?

Are we going to have to go straight to Sports Center?

They haven't given us an answer whatsoever.

And TNT, I think they sold the show and they haven't been non-communicable at all.

What do they care?

They got paid.

They got paid.

Because the thing is, with these shows, you can do the pregame show forever and it's fun, but it's basically like a podcast.

You're guessing what's going to happen.

Yes.

The post-game is the secret sauce because you just watch the game, you're reacting to it.

Yes.

And that was when I did it.

I would get mad because they didn't give a shit about hearing from us after the game.

And it's like, well, we shouldn't be here then.

Why are we on location?

Just

do a four-minute segment with us.

Just setting up the game is the easy part.

Now you can tell why a team won and the team lost, who played good, who played bad.

Like, that's that is the secret sauce.

They have not said anything to us about, hey, are we going to be able to do that after the game?

And like I say, TNT didn't care.

They just took,

like, they think we morons.

If they think we don't think they got paid something, I mean, come on, we're not filling it.

Oh, yeah.

Also, they have a rule with the finals about on ABC, you have to get the fuck out of there and throw it to local news, like with a certain, so you're going to have to switch channels to watch you guys, which ain't nothing.

I want to tell you something, what you just said, because to me, it's gonna be one of the biggest issues.

I've been telling my friends, they're like, What do you think?

I says,

Well, number one, we're concerned about the whole ESPN thing as far as we have to go to sports center.

I said, But I think the NBA's got a big problem.

I says, They're gonna, how are they gonna tell people what night the games are on?

I says, The games have been the same on 40 years,

they've been on ESPN on Tuesday, excuse me, on ESPN on TNT on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

Right.

And ESPN Wednesday, Friday, then Saturday night, then some Sunday.

But Saturday is gone because of Amazon.

So

when I met with NBC,

they said we're going to do games on Monday and Tuesday.

And then when the NFL ends, we're going to do Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday.

I think ESPN is going to do Wednesday and Friday.

Friday.

And I think Amazon is going to do Thursday and Saturday.

But my thing is, how are regular fans

going to like, okay, it's Tuesday, especially when they start putting games on.

Where do I go?

Well, like, because, you know, sometimes the game is going to be on Peacock.

And, like, it's not going to be on NBC.

I think that's a huge dilemma for the NBA.

Guess what?

They don't care.

I agree.

They got so much money.

They're going to wipe their tears with cash.

Phil,

I'm so glad you said that.

I think it's a big deal because they just took all the money from all three networks.

I don't think they give a shit about the fans.

And

I think this is going to come back to bite them, to be honest with you.

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Well, if you talk to anybody from the NBA, as I know you have,

how many years have they been complaining about how ESPN covers the league?

I mean, at least 10, right?

10, 12, 15.

Like, I hate the, we hate the discourse.

We hate that they do that.

And it's like, you just took their money again.

You can't say anything.

You took their money one more time.

So now that's a new point.

But yeah, but they took the money, but also to take the money from NBC and Amazon.

It's like, yeah, we're just going to take the money.

And then the thing that's scary, this deal is for 11 years.

Right.

So now

people can play in all they want to.

For the next 11 years,

they don't give a shit about the fans.

They're like, y'all, if y'all find the game, fine, just make sure the check clears.

Well, I think Amazon is going to do a really good job because i i think they've done a good job with football and i think they i i think their attitude toward how they're going to cover it and how much attention like they're going to be fine nbc is going to do it like they did nfl i think they can all be fine they just got to figure out how the regular fan are going to find it right because that's a frustrating thing with nfl where you're like what's oh it's

wait a second this game's on it's black friday on amazon and you're you're floating around yeah it's okay like okay

We know that ESPN got the games on Wednesday and Friday.

That's pretty stable, but okay, yeah,

it's are the games on NBC or they on Peacock.

And again, what two nights is Amazon?

Are they okay?

Yeah, they took TNT's nights.

Do they get TNT Tuesday?

And I leave past two.

Well, wait a minute.

So TNT,

Amazon,

you get TNT's Thursday, but you don't get their Tuesday.

That goes to NBC.

Yeah, like, I know people think that's simple, but you should always try to make it simple for the fans.

Well, and then for you, it's going to be like, where do you get you guys?

Because that's the other piece people are going to care about.

And then on top of it, you're going to be at ESPN.

I'm sure there's going to be some back and forth with different people on the shows.

You're not going to put up with it because you're old and you don't care.

You're just going to go right back at everybody.

I think, listen, it's going to be an honor and a privilege to to work for ESPN because they're the greatest sports network ever.

Yeah.

But I just, I just hope that we get to do what we do, man.

Me too.

Like,

see, you're one of the few people who understand

the question, the points that I'm asking.

Like, wait, we got to go to local news or we got to go to sports center or we got to do both.

Like, how do I, the game just ended.

How do I find you guys?

Yeah.

Oh, I have to flip channels.

Yeah.

I mean,

they're in commercial.

Am I on the right channel?

What am I doing?

What's happening?

There's a few people who actually understand that.

You're like, okay, we got to go to local news.

Like, we've never fucking had to go to local news before.

You know, we've never had to go to sports center.

And yeah, but most of the people that produce these shows have never been on the shows.

And when you've been on it, you understand the rhythm a bit differently.

For whatever reason, Tim Kiley, your guy forever, he fundamentally understood how to make you guys succeed and that you guys needed time and you needed to breathe.

And that was what made it special.

Most people don't, they don't see it that way.

Now you don't understand it.

Now I'm hoping that we get to breathe.

Yeah, you're going to have like, trust me, I did him a couple of years.

You're going to have like a two and a half minute halftime show on location at the finals.

Like, he really, wait, I just started my point.

We're going to commercial again.

What happened?

You know, and I, and I've been able to scream at TNT people.

I've done it live on air.

I'm not done with my point.

Hold that damn commercial.

And I want to make my point because it was an important point.

But like I say, man,

I don't know, but I'm concerned.

I ain't never going to get on your show or any show online.

Like I am concerned about going forward.

Well, I will say we've said goodbye to inside the NBA, it feels like, for three straight years, and you guys are still on.

You guys are like.

boxers that keep retiring.

It's like when Ali retired over and over again in the 70s and then he would fight again.

You know, this was, you know, I really grew to hate the people I work for, to be honest with you, Bill.

I could tell.

No, because, Bill, there's a way you treat people.

Yeah.

We should not learn that we got fired or whatever from the internet.

Ernie Johnson deserves better.

Literally, this is a true story.

We were playing golf.

in the playoffs.

I was playing with my boy Alex and Underdog and Mike.

We're literally in between shots looking at the internet.

One article comes out, TNT lost the package.

We're like, guys, we lost the package.

Another article comes out.

We kept the package.

Another article came out.

We lost the package.

Nothing came.

We're literally playing golf and in between shots.

We're reading the internet.

And

then

nothing happens.

Nobody says anything.

And I'm literally sitting at a house on a Friday night.

I get a text from Van Pelt,

Bob Myers,

L.

Duncan, and Brian Winhorse.

Welcome me to the family.

This is a Friday night.

Nobody's told us anything.

I get this text from four ESPN people, welcome me to the family.

about two hours later i get a call from tnt

hey

this story broke no

with the shows going to espn and i'm like well y'all had to negotiate something

before

it broke

how about a hair's up Ernie Johnson.

Just have been there saying how'd they negotiate it without knowing if you were going to be on the show?

That's my point.

That's my point, Bill.

And I'm sitting here like, oh, welcome to the family.

It was a Friday night.

And I was like, wait, welcome to what family?

Then I said, I got the call from TNT like two hours later saying, hey, unfortunately, the story broke.

Like, the story broke because y'all got a damn deal.

How about if y'all signed a deal, call us for immediately and saying, hey, guy, we got a deal to trade y'all's show to ESPN.

And that's one of of the reasons I developed animosity toward them.

Like, yo, just tell us.

Because if he had to call us and said, you know what, guys, this is a bad deal.

They want us to go from 1.2 to 2.5 billion a year for 11 years.

We can't afford that.

That's all TNT had to say, Bill.

And we would have said, We understand.

That's not a great deal.

But for us to hear from the internet and ESPN people that we lost the package, that's just unprofessional.

And I get mad for Ernie because Ernie's the godfather.

Ernie Johnson should never have to hear from other people that he lost his gig.

Right.

Well, he was also telling everybody, I don't want another job.

This is where I want to end my career.

I have these crazy ties with TNT and TBS and Atlanta, and I don't want to do anything else.

Well,

so

I'm with him on that.

And I'll tell you the truth, Bill.

The only reason me and Ernie decided to stay was that people at TNT got to kept their jobs.

Because

I got off, so I met with Amazon

and I met with NBC, got an offer for more money from NBC.

I thought that's where you were going to go.

Well, I probably would have went there.

They had a bunch of bullshit.

They were talking about, not going to lie, they offered me more money.

But

when they sent the contract to me, it had Kentucky Derby.

It had the U.S.

Open.

Oh, Sam would have liked you on both of those.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

It had

five appearances on today.

I'm still intrigued.

Five appearances on Jimmy Fallon,

the Olympics in 28 and 30.

And I says,

I guess y'all didn't hear the part where I wanted to.

Because I will tell you what's funny.

I liked all those things.

Bill, I'm not going to work more as I get older.

I'm working less.

I would have liked to see that.

Because what was very ironic about the contract,

when we first started talking,

he says

I was going to work two days a week, which I hadn't worked two days a week in 25 years.

Yeah.

I said, you know what?

Because I like the guys.

Because the boss at NBC hired me a turner.

I got a lot of love for Mark Lazarus.

I said, you know what?

I can work Monday and Tuesday.

I'm good with that.

So I'm like, okay,

send me a contract.

Let me take a look at it.

But then by the time I got the contract,

they're like, well, once football over, you're going to work three days a week.

That was my first red flag.

And then when they put Kentucky Derby, U.S.

Open,

Olympics 28 and 30, I said, hell no.

And

so then

the thing with Turner comes back

and they're like, guys.

We can keep the show going

and we get to keep everybody at Turner.

And me and Ernie were like,

okay,

that's the best scenario.

Because one of the things that intrigued me and Ernie about NBC,

they told us we could bring all the people with us.

Yeah.

Which was me and Ernie's only concern.

Because

when me and Ernie met with NBC, they're like, you guys can bring anybody you want to.

And I was like, we can bring everybody behind the scene.

They said, they said, we'll film this show in Atlanta.

And you can bring anybody you want to.

So that got me and Ernie's attention.

Yeah.

But then the thing with ESPN came up and we're like, well, if we can keep stay the same and bring everybody with us, let's take that deal.

All right.

Well, it sounds like you're still conflicted about it.

I'm not conflicted because 200 people are going to keep their job.

They're like my family members.

Yeah.

And that's all I really cared about.

Because, Bill, I will tell you something.

This was a very difficult couple of years for me mentally

because, you know, I'm in

the sports world

my whole life.

I ain't never been around a lot of real people.

You know, all my NBA friends and TB friends, they got a lot of money.

And I'm blessed.

I'm not being an ungrateful person.

I'm very blessed and thankful.

But to be around

my coworkers, TV people,

who were going to lose their job

and to hear them talking about mortgage,

taking their kids out of private school that they never had to worry about, because we never, under any circumstances, thought that TNT was going to lose the NBA.

But it was becoming increasingly clear.

And man, we just fired a gazillion people from NBA TV,

which was painful because I knew all those guys and people behind the scenes.

But for the last, especially last year, but really the last couple of years, and it was like we might lose the NBA,

to be around people who I genuinely care about, to hear them talk about mortgage.

to hear them talking about taking their kids out of private school and things like that, talking about downgrading where they live.

Man, it was really painful for me

because, you know, I'm in the NBA.

I ain't ever had one of my friends talk about mortgage and say, I got to downgrade my kids' schooling.

Like, it was really painful for me as a person.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean, I think about the late night shows, right?

As the late night era is kind of ending, like Colbert shows in.

Yeah.

200 people work for that show.

I mean,

Kim is deciding how long he wants to go.

200 people are hinging on the decision.

And like, and they act like

these people can just go get another job.

I says, it doesn't work like that.

I said, man, jobs,

jobs just don't grow on tree, especially in our community.

Yeah.

Because if we fire those 200 people

in Atlanta, number one, 200 people ain't going to have a job.

A couple of, like, they were talking about,

well, if you go to Amazon, you got to move to California.

That's a whole different animal.

And I'm not even sure what an NBC decided to do their show at.

So people act like, well, we can just go get another job.

I'm like, it's not that simple.

Even if Amazon wants to hire you, how many people can just pick up and move to California?

That's a different animal from an economic standpoint.

Or same thing, if NBC moves everything to New York, that's a whole nother animal.

So, you in California could have been a reality show that could have potentially funded some of this, too.

I know

you living here, I think, would have been absolutely fascinating.

I wouldn't have never lived there.

I think that should have been part of the deal.

It's like Amazon, but you have to live here

to pick a neighborhood and you have to be an LA person.

They would have had to really give me a really good condo, a house, or something.

Bel Air, you could play Bel Air with the ball.

Somewhere right by the studio.

Okay.

A nice condo, three-bedroom.

You can't have more.

I think they have those here.

Yeah, I'm a big believer.

You can never have more than two people visiting at the same time.

Any more than two people, you're crowded.

Oh, that's interesting.

No matter how big your house is?

No, I'm not big on guests.

Yeah, that does get tough when you have kids.

Aren't you staying at your kids' house right now?

I am.

My daughter.

My two grandkids, Yes.

All right.

How old are the grandkids?

Three and two.

Little Henry, he's three, and little Charlie, she's two.

So at some point, you got to break out the YouTube clips of you going coast to coast.

You know,

my life revolves around Miss Rachel and Daniel Tiger.

That's pretty much it right now.

Those are the kids' shows.

Yeah.

Miss Rachel and Daniel Tiger.

That's pretty much it.

And the rest is either

watching guard over the swimming pool.

Right.

That's it.

That's an important job, though.

It's a very important job because you,

man, they were so cute in the beginning.

Now they won't sit still.

Like, they were so cute in the beginning.

I just sit on your lap and you just kiss them like a million times.

Once they can run, it's over.

Oh, my God.

Once they start walking and running, all hairbreaking, I need a nap every time I see them.

Right after that, I do.

You need a nap.

It is amazing how they go from, oh, you're so cute.

But then, once they learn to walk and run, they never sit still.

It's crazy.

So, you have, to wrap up, you have Philadelphia beating who in the Super Bowl.

You know, I'm hoping it's the Buffalo Bills.

I would like to see either Josh Allen

or

I like Josh Allen a lot as a person.

The Ravens,

the Ravens.

You know,

when you're a great player

like Lamar and Josh are,

you're on the shit list like me

until you win the championship.

And it sucks because, you know, it's a team game, but when you're a great player, you get all the credit and you get all the blame.

Yeah.

So

I would like to see Josh O'Lamar win the Super Bowl.

Um,

I think Baltimore has a better team because their defense is better,

slightly better coaching staff.

Buffalo is a better offensive line, yeah.

But they got that, you know, they revamped their defense last year, yeah.

So, but my Eagles, man, they're loaded, their defense got to grow up.

Uh, but Josh O'Lamar,

uh, so so I had Buffalo over Green Bay before the Parsons trade.

One day.

Before that,

don't you?

It almost seems too easy now.

Now it's like, you know, that Parsons trade.

The love kid got to play better.

True.

He was hurt last year.

He was hurt.

See, that's the thing that sucks about sports.

He got hurt in the first game.

And then had two more injuries.

But once you get hurt, you're like, and people think when you come back, you're healthy.

When you come back, you're not healthy.

It takes a while to get back.

And then he gets hurts again.

But you know what?

I give them credit.

Hey, man.

You know, we did it in Philadelphia the last couple of years.

Right.

That's why Howie's the best general manager.

That goes back to what we were talking about earlier.

Man, very seldom do you have a chance to win.

Like,

very, you give Howard, like, I need a wide receiver.

He went and got AJ.

Then he, like, we're not good enough.

I need a running back.

He goes out and gets Saquon.

The Packers, like, man, when you have a chance to win, you got to go for it.

Well, that, but that was the frustration with Denver for me, with what they did with Jokic the last two years, where, you know,

they won the title and they're like, okay, we won a title.

It's like, you have the best guy of this decade.

Every year that this guy is on your team, you have to spend

the most money you possibly can because this is like this is generational.

This is a unicorn, and they didn't do it last year, they cheaped out.

I thought, but see, the problem they got now, they're trying to play catch up,

and I always and I tell people this:

you never catch up,

it might be too late

because

now they're not head and shoulders the best starting five,

you know, right?

Yeah, but

but they got rid of their two best players off the bench when they won the championship.

Yeah.

And some of that was financial.

I understand that.

Dude, man,

guys are gifted right arm and leg to win the championship.

Your team is going to be worth billions of freaking dollars.

You're going to haggle over 10, 20, 30 million dollars.

Think about that, Bill.

Your team, every NBA team is worth at least $2 billion.

Oh, my four now.

The ceiling's four.

Courtland got 4.25.

So think about this.

You had a chance to keep KCP and Bruce Brown.

Probably cost you another 30, maybe 40 million.

You're going to, team going to appreciate $300, $400 million, especially if you win.

You're probably going to make that money up if you go deep into playoffs.

Man, if you got a chance to win, you better go for it.

They really wasted the Joker of the last couple of years.

But like I say, the problem they got now is they're not better than Oklahoma City.

Right.

And I'm not sure they're better than the Rockets.

Yeah, if Thompson goes up a level, Houston could be in the two-spot.

It's a bummer because

I don't know.

I was there for Bird of Magic.

You were too in a different way.

You played against them.

Think about this.

Hold on.

Perfect example.

Go back and look.

This is what...

When those guys had birds, they bought in somebody every year.

Right.

What about the Lakers?

They bought in somebody every year.

You can never stand pat when you win.

The Celtics, they brought in Walden one year.

And then the Lakers bring in Michael Thompson.

They brought in Bob McAdoo.

Sam Perkins.

Sam Perkins.

Like,

that's what made the Lakers and the Celtics the two greatest NBA franchises ever.

Hey, we're not trying to win one championship.

We're not trying to win two championships.

We're not trying to win three.

That's what made the Celtics and the Lakers the best franchises in NBA history.

They never

might be wired that way.

The way they think of this long-term, short-term at the same time about how to build something that's seven, eight years and not two.

Oh, they're going to be the favorite.

Well, actually,

your Celtics would have been the favorite the next five years if they didn't get hurt.

Yeah, but at least in the East.

Yes, in the East.

But OKC, because they only got to pay

those top three guys.

And I'm going to tell you something.

Hardenstein and Caruso,

they'll give a hometown discount.

Yeah.

And then they got more young players and damn draft picks.

Because I tell these guys, if I'm Hardenstein and Caruso,

I'm not taking an extra $5 million

to suck.

well that was the that was the famous julian edelman story when jacksonbow was trying to sign him and he he basically took four million less to stay with he's like i'm playing with tom brady like i'm gonna factor that in if i'm gonna play with those top three guys in oklahoma city if i can get five million dollars from a shit team or i can get three and a half if i get three and a half

I'm gonna make another million in endorsements because I'm on the best team in the NBA.

And playoff money, too, right?

You got some of that, too.

I don't know Hardenstein and Caruso that well.

They're really important to OKC.

I guarantee you they'll take a hometown discount to stay because like I say, they're going to be favored easily.

Even if they don't win the championship, they're going to be first or second the next five years easily.

Yeah.

Well, that's the thing I never understood with Jokic.

Like if in the old days, people are like, I get to play with Magic.

I'm going to, let me get to the Lakers to play with that guy.

I don't understand why people didn't see Jokic like that.

I could play with that guy.

It's like the most fun guy in the league to play with.

People felt that way about Duncan in the 2000s, right?

Once they started trading players, they wasn't trying to bring that guy.

They got the stink on them.

All right.

This was a good catch-up, Chuck.

Hey, brother.

I'm glad you're well.

It's always great to see you.

I'm rooting for you at this next stop.

We'll see how it goes.

Hey, all right.

I'm going to bet on Barkley all the time.

I got a lot of love and respect for us, brother.

Thanks for having me on.

All right.

Great to see you.

Thanks, man.

All right.

That's it for the podcast.

Thanks to the one and only Charles Barkley.

Don't forget about new rewatchables, our 400th movie that

we've done.

We did American Gangster.

And then

what else do I have?

Oh, yeah.

More podcasts coming this week.

At least one more, probably two, as we head toward week one of the NFL season.

So stay tuned.

We're going to keep the content coming.

Don't forget about all the other ringer football stuff we have in the works as well.

And I'll see you a little later in the week.

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