Charles Barkley on Skinny Luka, the Eagles, LeBron, Jokic, Josh Allen, and His Uneasy ESPN Partnership

This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every time I sit down and watch the game, I find myself getting a little hungry, especially when football is going on all day.

Football and food just go together. Luckily, Uber Eats has game day deals all season long on the food you love.

Like right now, you can get a BOGO 10-piece chicken nuggets from McDonald's, or whether you're ordering from your favorite restaurant or getting snacks from the grocery store, whatever you're trying to do, Uber Eats has you covered for game day.

So order now on Uber Eats. Promotion available until December 14th.
Product availability varies by region. See See app for details.
Terms apply.

The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook, where they have a fun promotion for NFL kickoff and for each of the week one primetime games. Here's how it works.

You can place an anytime TD bet on any week one NFL primetime using your profit boost, any game.

And if the player you pick scores either the first or the last touchdown of the game, you earn a share of $2 million in bonus bets. So for instance, Philly Dallas.

If you think Jalen Hurts is going to score the first touchdown, that's plus 470.

I would vote for that. I would vote for George Pickens with a garbage time touchdown to be the last TD scorer.
That's 12 to 1. Do both of them.
Knock yourself out.

Try to get a share of that 2 million. Go ahead and place an anytime TD bet on FanDuel for the game.
And you get to cheer for the first and last TD to win a share of $1 million in bonus bets.

So there's that. I put up a 400th rewatchables.
On Monday night, it was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. We did American Gangster.

Denzel, I think, moved into maybe second place for most rewatchable appearances, 12 or 13 for him.

This was a really fun episode. You can find on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well.
We're doing a bunch of football stuff this week. Ringer Fantasy Football Show is in high gear.

You have the Ringer Gambling Show, which got going. The Ringer Tailgate, our college football, which did really, really well.
Ringer and a phobic shield. So we're humming.

heading toward Thursday night. It's going to be me and house on Thursday and maybe some other stuff.
I might do a fourth podcast this week. I would keep an eye on that.
There's so much content.

I thought the guest we're about to have, Charles Barkley, was just going to be the first part of the show. But man, once we got going, it was almost almost an hour and a half.
We covered a lot.

We covered a lot of basketball, his football. He comes on every year to do football stuff, make his picks.
He picked the Eagles correctly last year.

But we ended up kind of diving into what happened at TNT and what's going to happen with him at ESPN and inside the NBA. So

always great to have him. He's honestly one of my favorite, favorite people.
And I was talking to Jimmy Kimmel once about this. I think he might be the best guest.

If he's not the best guest, he's a one seed in whatever the tournament is. Just can go on any talk show, can come on any podcast.
He's just the best.

So anyway, he's the podcast today, the one and only Charles Barkley. It's next.
We're going to take a break. We're going to go to Pearl Jam and then Sir Charles.

It's the Bill Simmons podcast presented by Fandu. And the NFL is back.
And thank God, Fandu has everything. They got an awesome app.
They have SGPs. They have great futures.
They have good prop bets.

Live betting, your way bets. Clean app.
It's great to use.

Been using it for a few years. Every time I go back to Boston or any place that has Fando and I get to use it, I'm always excited.
I'm on an airplane runway. Have you done the airplane runway? Yes.

Have you, buddy? Airplane runway? There should be a button, the runway. I'm on the airplane runway.
I got to get this in. Get your bets in.
Build something bold. Make every game feel bigger.

Download the Fando app or head head to Fando.com/slash BS to get started.

The Ringer, committed to responsible gaming, please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. And listen to the end of this episode for additional details.

You must be 21 plus in president select states or 18 plus in president in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem call 1-800-GAMBLER.
Visit rg-help.com.

Call 1-88-789-777 or visit ccpg.org/slash chat in Connecticut. Paid endorsement.

All right, Grandpa Charles Barkley is here. He's visiting the grandkids.
He's getting ready for football season. He comes on every year to make picks.
And I think you picked the Eagles last year.

And even if you didn't, I'm going to say that you did. I did pick the Eagles, and I'm going to pick them again this year, brother.
Come back.

Give me the back-to-back. Give me the explanation.
Well, they got the same offense.

I'm not related to this guy, but his name is Saquon Barkley. I'm going to claim him because he's a Barkley.
He is phenomenal. We still got the great wide receiver tandem, got a great tight end.

Jalen's phenomenal. Now, defense is pretty young.
You know, we're going through that transition. A lot of the older guys have moved on.

But I think Vic Fangio, by the end of the season, hey, my guys rolling, man. I can't wait.
What about the hunger issue after you've won the title? It seemed like it hurt the Chiefs last year.

The Chiefs were even complaining during Super Bowl week about, oh, man, it's starting to feel like old hat for us. Do you believe the football when you haven't won yet getting back? No?

Well, they won three. Now, there's a little bit difference.
Yeah. You know, when you won three, when we get to three, we might get a little bored, but we only have one.

But no,

first of all, I don't believe that. Because

if you get, because it takes so much to get to the NBA Finals and to get to the Super Bowl, you don't take that for granted. Yeah.

I mean, you know, the great Dan Marino said one time, he says, you know, I got there my first year

and then 10, 12, 13 years later, I never got back again. I remember having the same conversation with Alan Iverson.
He's like, man, I thought I was going to be in the finals like three or four times.

I got there one time. I got there one time.

You know, I said, so this notion that you're going to get back there, man, when you get a chance to win the Super Bowl, because, Bill, let me tell you something.

You have to be honest with yourself as a player, and it's hard to do.

There's very few times you actually have a chance to win the championship.

I played in the NBA for 16 years. I think I had a chance to win the title four times.

That's it. That's it.
You know, Shaquille, who's one of the greatest ever, he played in the league for over 20 years. He won four championships.

So this notion that you're going to win all the time, no, man, when you got a chance to win, you better win. Also, it's a percentages thing.

If you're in a 30-team league, only one team could win the championship every year. Somehow we've underrated how hard it is to win a

and all the different things that can go wrong. We just saw last year with the Celtics, you know, you win the title and then your best guy gets hurt.

Yeah, but it takes a perfect storm to win the championship. You got to have a couple great players, obviously, but all your guys got to be in their prime, your role player, like the Denver Nuggets.

When they got the best player in the world, then they got rid of all their guys on the bench. Yeah.
And thinking, like, you know, we got Joker,

we got aaron we got michael porter jr we got uh jamal

they got no bench they got rid of kcp and bruce brown like everything has to go well i mean think about this though if the eagles don't go out against saquan barkley they don't win the championship right they do not so man

everything has to go well Listen, I love the Eagles no matter what, but if they don't go out against Saquon, they don't win. I mean, so I think, hey, how about this?

Your Celtics, if they don't go out and get Perzingas,

they don't win.

Also, I don't want to leave out Drew Holiday, but if they don't go out and get Perzingas two years ago, they don't win the championship.

Yeah, I said a couple podcasts ago that the Eagles reminded me of the 2000s Patriots with how they're putting the team together. Like getting Jalen Carter with the ninth pick, right?

You go back and do that draft again. He should have gone in the top three.

He falls to nine for a variety of of reasons trading for aj brown trading a pick for him like they've just consistently outthought teams which i think you kind of have to do in the nba now with all these new dumb rules they have no second apron thing hey hey hey hey cut the

they ain't got no dumb rules let me tell you something i'm so glad you asked that question is this a second apron defense no no

yes Why did they have to come up with bullshit rules, Bill? Because all these guys want to play together and not compete. How many great players do you need on one team?

See, this is what bothers me in my generation. They made up these rules, like these young people.

Well, if I had a dollar for every time I heard the second apron, why did Adam Silver have to put the second apron in? Because LeBron got all his guys together. KD want to go play with the Warriors.

Wait, y'all don't want to win the championship and just compete against each other?

Don't get mad at Adam Silver because y'all all want to play together and dominate the league because y'all don't want to compete i hate when i hear man the safe second apron's not fair what do you mean it's not fair if y'all stopped all wanting to play together we wouldn't have to make up bogus ass rules to stop y'all from playing together this is interesting because i completely disagree with you okay i think they came up with it because the players association i don't think realized that putting these rules in is going to make all these teams blow up and you're basically going to be able to afford two or three guys max and then you're going to have to cut corners everywhere else like the celtics they had no chance of keeping drew holiday and poor zingis on this team with this nucleus but but but everybody on that team was getting paid Right, but I'm saying now, but nowadays, but they did, they did a really smart thing with the way they stacked their roster.

Like OKC now, they've made all these really smart moves to put the roster they have together, and they're not going to be able to keep it together, even though they were smart. They're

penalizing people for smart, they're paying their top three players, Bill. Like, right?

Listen, as much as I love LeBron, when he started doing this thing with Bosch and Wade, that was the first wave.

Right. The second wave was KD going to the Warriors.
Adam Silver had to do something. We can't let one team hoard all the good players.
I mean, they had Klaysteph and Draymond. They didn't need KD.

Well, that's true. But that was a unique situation.
To me, it's like in the new age. That was a unique situation.
Well, because the cap spiked. That was the year, like Joe Kim Noah.

They went there to dominate the league. The regions of LeBron went to Miami so he can get him into Wade and Bosch together.

If all these guys didn't want to play together, Bill, Adam Silver wouldn't have to come up with this sacred, this second apron thing. That's the only reason.
Like, my sons,

they were paying KD,

Bill,

and

Booker each $60 million.

How many good players do you need?

You think I don't want to play? You don't think in my heyday, I want to play with KD and Bradley Bill?

Like, they're like, we can't pay everybody. They have to come up.
This is a bogus rule. I agree with you.
But if all these guys don't want to play together, Adam Silver wouldn't have to make up rules.

I was thinking it would be like in the mid-80s if Philly had you and Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks and Moses Malone and Dr. J.

No, it'd be more like if Michael Jordan went to the Celtics to play with either if Michael Jordan, who was the best player in the league three or four years before he won the championship, if he either went to Boston or went to L.A., that's what it would be like.

Yeah, but you stepped on my joke that I was going to make. What's that?

I was going to say it would be like if Philly, because they couldn't afford anyone, had to trade Moses Malone for Jeff Ruin and Cliff Robinson, you know, and then you were going to say, Oh, no, that's actually what they did, and it was really stupid.

I was just, I thought it was going to be a joke coming right now. Let me tell you something right now.
You know, I got a lot of love and respect for you. It's too soon for that bullshit.

It's for 39 years. Let me tell you something.
I have been, I have been, I'm not, I'm being serious for one second now.

I have been bitter and angry because that cost me at least one championship, probably two,

Because I was just becoming a star. Yeah.

We had the number one pick in the draft.

And me and the guys went out to celebrate that night. This is the night before the draft.

And we got drunk as hell. I'm like, God, I'm like my third year in the league.

I think that was the first time I became an all-star. I'm excited for the future.

Andrew Tony's healthy at this point? No, he's out the league.

But like, we still got a good team. I got Hercy Hawkins, Johnny Dawkins.
And the only thing we were missing was a big guy. We got, I got Brad Doherty coming in for the next 10, 15 years.

I like my chances against anybody,

anybody. Yeah.

And we go out and celebrate.

I get home around 2.30 in the morning. My phone rings around 5 o'clock in the morning.
It's a great reporter in Philly, a guy named Phil Jasner.

He said charles i need to talk to you i said phil we've been out celebrating we got i'm getting brad daughter tomorrow he's like well better hold off on that the sixers made a trade

and i said phil there's no way the sixers are that stupid you trade the number one pick in the draft he says and it get worse i said well it can't get any worse than that i said let me do it so i said this true story bill I said, Phil, let me take a shower.

So I want to make sure I got my head together. So I get in the shower, take a long hot shower.
I call Phil back. It's about 5.30 in the morning.
I feel explained to me what's going on.

He says, well, you guys have just traded the number one pick in the draft to Cleveland.

I says, you trade the number one pick in the draft.

Number one, you trade the number one pick. That's stupid.
Then you trade him to the competition. We have,

I think. If I remember correctly, I can't remember.
I think we had just played. We had just beaten the Calves in the playoffs.

I think we lost to the Bulls that year, if I remember correctly, but we had just played the Calves and beat them in a five-game series.

So not only are you trading the number one pick, you trade them to the competition.

Then they traded for Roy Henson, who's a good friend of mine, who was a decent player, but clearly wasn't going to be Brad Doherty.

I thought Brad Doherty was going to be an all, well, he was an all-star for the next 10 years, which he was, basically.

Then Phil says, oh, it gets worse. I said, What's worse than that? He says,

You guys traded Moses Malone to the Washington, the Wizards,

to the Bullets at the time for Jeff Rulin. I said, Jeff Rulin hadn't played basketball in two years.
Radio bad back.

I said, And didn't they try to trade Dr. J to Utah, too? That was the other thing that was floating around.
I think that might have been the year before.

It was some time, but it was just for this one draft.

And I says, So you're telling me, and I see, because I thought Moses, Moses, who was my mentor, who helped me lose 50 pounds to become an all-star, I thought he'd been great for me and Brad Doherty for the next two or three years.

Then he could walk away, retire. Because the league was big back then because you had Samson Elijah and you had Mikael in Paris.

Oh, I had to beat Bird McHale in Paris. Yeah.
And I was like, Jeff Rulam hadn't played in two years.

And I think me and Jeff Rulam.

played two games together, Bill. So not only are we traded the number one pick in the draft for Roy Henson, we traded Moses to DC for

Jeff Rulin and Cliff Robertson.

And from that point on, we went in a spiral, obviously,

downhill,

because

the Celtics were on their last legs. It was between.
I had the Pistons and Bulls come in.

Yeah. But, you know, if they gave me Brad Doherty, I would have felt pretty good.
about myself because the bulls the bulls didn't have anybody who could handle Brad Doherty Donald.

They had Bill cartwright right i was like no i'm good i'm good and man from that point on i was so angry then i had i had to spend another four years just sucking in philly and it was brutal it was brutal but i blame the sixers for making arguably one of the worst trades in nba history Well, so then you leave in 92.

And I was going to ask you about this later, but let's do it now. So you're watching Luka Donchich.
He's now skinny Luca.

He's got the eye of the tiger. He wants to prove Dallas wrong.
You were in this exact same spot when you were headed to Phoenix. You were in the dream team that year.

You're in the best shape of your life. You're motivated.
You want to stick it to Philly. Like, do you see parallels when you're watching and reading the stuff about him right now?

I think Luca is a great player. I think he's a lot younger than I was, to be honest with you.
And listen,

as long as... As long as I got some help, because it was interesting, I had zero idea where I was going to go.
I remember like the last couple years, they had me on the cover of the sporting news.

They had me like it was like eight different teams trying to get me, and I didn't care.

I just wanted to get the hell out of there. And what's really interesting about the story, Bill.
So that summer, I get arrested in Milwaukee for fighting.

And I beat the just America, I beat that rep. I've never, I've been arrested a few times for fighting, but I've never been found guilty.
Let's get that out the way.

So,

let me write that down. Yeah, so we're in Milwaukee.

I'm on trial for that week. I spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers.
There was no way I was going to get convicted because I didn't do anything. So me and my attorney,

we spent the whole week because I didn't want to piss people in Philadelphia off because Philly was great to me.

We spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers.

I said, basically, I said, hey, guys, I don't want to come out publicly because Philadelphia has been great to me. I love the fans.

They've They've always been great to me, but y'all suck as an organization. I will never

play for y'all again, ever.

Ever.

So I get acquitted Friday morning, catch a flight back to Philly. I bought a whole plane drinks, Bill.

I said, y'all drink up.

Nobody knows what's going on. I just bought, I just got acquitted.
So I bought the whole plane drinks. I said, I don't give a damn.

I didn't know you could do that. Yeah, Bill, that's when you had to pay for drinks back in the day, remember? Like, dude, we flew commercial my first

four years in the league. At that time, we were good.
Remember, well, first class got free drinks. You had to pay for them and coach.
See, Bill, you've been famous and rich for so long.

You forget about the old days.

I just had never heard of anyone buying a plane of drinks. Well, you had to pay for drinks and coach back then.
Yeah. Yeah.
But so that's good. That's a good.
That's it. That's good.

What's really ironic, which is really crazy, I get home that Friday night.

I'd ordered a set of, because every time you went to Phoenix,

you got fitted at paying for a set of golf clubs.

So I had forgot, because I think we went out, well, we always went out west for Christmas, got the circus was in town in Philly. We always did a two-week trip during Christmas, got the circus in town.

They had that in Boston, too. The team just disappeared.
Yeah, for two and a half weeks. Yeah.
So I get back home on a Friday night.

And me and the boys go, there's a set of ping golf clubs on my front porch. I live in a gated community.
They put a big box. I get that.
Oh, I ordered these golf courses, these clubs back in

December. I totally forgot I ordered the golf club.
We go out and celebrate, have a great weekend. Sunday night, I get a call from my agent.
It's Sunday night.

We're going to release the letter Monday morning.

I get a call from my agent Sunday night. You've been traded to the Phoenix Suns.
You got like an 8 o'clock flight to Phoenix the next day.

So it was really crazy. I got the golf clubs from Phoenix at my house that Friday.

And we're going to release the letter

Monday morning. I get traded that Sunday night.
I'm on an 8 o'clock fight to Phoenix that morning. I think it was like in August, sometime, if I remember correctly.
So you weren't angry about it.

You were relieved. I was relieved that it was over because I had to hear the rumors for three years.
Yeah, and you knew it was coming. Whereas Luca had no idea it was coming.

And it seemed like he got blindsided for a month.

You know, that's one of the weirdest things. I don't even know how you keep that a secret.
Well, you keep it a secret when it's the two GMs, basically, who know each other.

100%.

yeah the two GMs uh but you know it's going to be interesting because

uh

I think

the Rockets themby is going to be interesting next year because I think the Rockets and the Nuggets probably had the best summer yeah

obviously getting KD is gonna make gonna really improve the Rockets but they finally got Luca some help I love what the Nuggets did this summer me too

but you know, obviously, if you got Luke and LeBron, you're going to be competitive. But

I don't think it's earth-shattering like the Lakers are going to win the West. Like I say, OKC ain't going anywhere.
I think if you had to rank them in order,

I'd go OKC,

Rockets,

Denver.

And then I'd say Rockets over Denver.

Well, because I, man, I'm telling you, they are so deep.

They didn't give up anything to really get KD.

Yeah. I would have Denver too in the Rockets three.
I would have Minnesota over the Lakers, though.

I just think the LeBron, the age that he's at, and defensive stuff. But if Luca's in shape, that has another element.

Like I say,

we're not going to say, this ain't like March Madness, where when people be arguing over who's 69 and 70, Bill. like

i i always love every year that march madness somebody's pissed off i'm like yo man nobody goes around saying i'm number 69 and 70.

if you're not one of the top 68 teams shut the hell up don't be saying we're not the we should have got in you played with a couple of deandre eighten types in your career i'm a little dubious of that one too it's the the guy who's been who the super talented guy who's been disappointing everywhere he's been, but maybe this time it'll be different, especially when it's a center.

Those guys usually don't.

No, you know what's going to be different?

He's going to be a free agent.

Those are the most dangerous guys.

One year, the guys who should be paid year by year.

Well, like there used to be a thing back in my day.

One of the reasons the NBA started cutting salaries and short-term deals, there were guys, and I can name some guys who played like crap for two or three years,

and then all of a sudden became Bill Russell their last year.

And then as soon as they signed that big deal, went back to being

regular dude.

So I think what, to piggyback on your point, I think that's what, that's one of the things that's going to make the Lakers interesting because Eden got to ball out this year because if he does not play well, he's not going to get no big deal.

And let me tell you something. If he don't ball out playing with LeBron and Luca, he ain't never going to ball out.
Right.

You talk about the perfect scenario, but he's going to be so dangerous this year because he's going to be a free agent. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel football fans.

We're done waiting. Football's coming.
It's coming Thursday. It's coming Friday.
It's coming Sunday. It's coming Monday.

FanDuel giving all customers a no-sweat NFL bet for week one. Money line, player props, same-game parlays.
Your no-sweat bet can be used on any NFL wager type.

If you just wanted to go Denver Moneyline and do an alt over,

knock yourself out. If it doesn't win, you'll get your bonus bets back.
I am going to be sharing all my favorite bets on Thursday when we start the Ringer 107 contest.

But you can guess if you've listened to this podcast, there's some teams I'm leaning toward that I like for the season. Seattle, Denver,

maybe Jacksonville is a one week trying to convince us they're good.

Stay tuned for Thursday for my picks. Visit fandal.com slash BS to kick off the NFL season with a no-sweat bet every game day during week one.

Play your game with Fando and official sports betting part in the NFL. Must be 21 plus president in select states or 18 plus president in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming.

Opt-in required, refund issue judge, non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Max refund unless otherwise specified $5.

Restrictions apply, including token expiration, C terms at sportsbook.fando.com. Again, problem call 1-800-GAMB or visit rg-help.com.
Call 188-79-7777 or visit ccpg.org/slash chat in Connecticut.

This episode is presented by State Farm, having insurance. Not the same as having State Farm.
It's like expecting the leadership of a team captain on the football field, but getting a C captain. Sure,

they're both captains, but who's going to run your offense? You wouldn't settle. for anything less than the best for your team.
So don't settle for just any insurance.

When it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Well, the OKC, though, finding out after the playoffs that Jalen Williams had a fucked up wrist the whole time and we didn't even know about it, the fact that he wasn't healthy and still played well, the fact that they seemed like young, you know, that I know you were at some of the games too.

Like they, they felt young and nervous in certain spots.

And I think Indiana, there was a couple moments, especially game four, when they really could have potentially tilted that series and they just kind of weren't good enough to do it.

I wonder if OKC is going to be better. I never thought OKC was going to lose.
The only time I thought they were going to lose when old boys switched up the starting lineup.

And I was like, what the hell? What are you doing?

Yeah. I was like, what are you doing? The only other person I saw do something that stupid was Avery Johnson.
If you go back,

yeah.

We would go up, we went back, we were sitting there in the studio that night when we were like,

what just happened right here?

And we we were sitting in the studio, like, Avery Johnson changed up his starting lineup to go against Don Nelson Smallball.

They're like, why would you do that? You got the other one 67 games. Yeah, you're the number one seed, and you change up.
And

when Boyd did that this year, I was like, what the hell? Then they're

losing game one.

And then they blew him out in game two, but it didn't matter because they got the split. Then they won game three.

And he finally went back to his enormous lineup, like, yo, man, you don't change up things when you got the best team. You've been the best team in the NBA all season.

And I thought that was the only time I felt like

I was like, yo, man, don't do that again. You almost cost your team the championship.
But I've said, I said midway past all-star game, I started making predicting.

I said, nobody can beat this Oklahoma City team four times in a row. They're too good, man.
They're one of the deepest teams we've ever had in the NBA.

They remind me a lot of the old Pistons back in the Isaiah Thomas days. Like, everybody talked about Isaiah and Joe Dumars, who were great, but Hardenstein is Lambert.

And then coming off the bench, they had Sally, James Edwards, Benny Johnson, Mark McGuire. I mean, they had like 10 players.
Like, and you can just plug them in.

And it was amazing to watch them play.

And they're going to be tough. The only thing you got to worry about with them is they're going to get everybody's best slap next year.
And it's going to be a shock to their system.

They've been like the cool little kids for the last couple years. They finally reached their potential.
But now, when you hunt it, man, it's a different animal. It's a different animal.

Sometimes the teams will go up a level defending. Like, I remember the 92 Bulls were like that after they got the first one.
They were like ripening through the next year. They had Michael Jordan.

I don't listen,

you know, all this stuff.

You know, I love talking about players,

and people always ask me the difference between Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant,

and LeBron. Because those are the three best players I've seen in my generation.
The two most important players ever are Maddie Johnson and Larry Bird, but they made the NBA what it is today.

But the three best players I've ever seen were Michael, Kobe, and LeBron.

And I'll tell you the difference in the three.

Kobe and LeBron, excuse me, Michael and Kobe are dangerous. They'll kill your ass.

LeBron's a nice guy. And I said, and that's not a knock.

He's still great, great, great, but he's a nice guy. Michael and Kobe aren't nice guys.

Like, they're different.

And that, the one thing about OKC, even though I think Shay is a great, great player, he to me is more like LeBron. He's a really nice guy.
He's not out there trying to kill you.

And I think that's the difference. And Jalen, they got a bunch of really, really good players, and that's fine.

But I always tell people, the difference between Michael and Kobe, man, they are dangerous.

I mean, they really wanted to kill you and humiliate you.

And that's not, like, I think Tom Brady's like that. Yeah.

he is. Yeah, like then and then I think there's very few players

out of all the great players I've ever met in my life. I think Michael and Kobe, Tom Brady,

Roger Clemens.

Like,

I think they want who? Roger Clemens. Yeah, Roger Clemens.
Where did that come from?

He'll throw at your head in a minute.

Right. You're talking about mean, spirited, great athletes.
Yes. Like they're going to do whatever it takes to win.
They ain't worried about who liked them and they ain't worried about your feelings.

And there's nothing wrong with that. And like everybody's not built like that.
I'm not even built like that. Like I think I'm a pseudo-tough guy.
Like I want to win.

But like I like I'm just not like those guys.

Yeah, you're still the guy buying drinks for everybody on the plane. 100%

MJ would have been playing cards.

Yeah, and MJ wouldn't have paid for other people's drinks. Just probably his and whoever he was playing cards with.

What you just laid out, I think about a lot because the guy, that all-time guy that everybody says was like that was Bill Russell. Like he just wanted to destroy people.
Yes.

Everything he did was about trying to get in somebody's head, intimidate people.

Like with Wilt, he made friends with Wilt to try to get closer to him, to make Wilt go less hard at them when they played. All he wanted to do is win and take care of business in the games.

The MJ stat that I love, I think it was like eight straight years. He never lost three straight games ever.
He just wouldn't, he wouldn't accept it.

That, like, there's nobody who's been wired like that. That's why I'm not saying that.

The closest I've seen is Kobe. I saw a picture today, as a matter of fact.
I was scrolling and they got a picture of Magic Johnson. He was talking about Magic.

He's talking about Michael's the best he's ever seen as far as talent, work ethic, and mental toughness. Michael has this look in his eyes, Bill.

And I says, that's Michael Jordan right there like they had my they and nobody else notices this because magic is dribbling the ball michael's guarding him but they got magic's quote

and the look in michael's eyes i was saying to myself that's the guy that's the guy right there i remember the picture he's kind of looking up and he looks like like a serial killer like a serial killer

like a serial killer that's 100

let me tell you this quick olympic story so john thompson who's one of the greatest men i've ever met in my life so he i get cut from the olympic trials

and

my coach sonny smill says hey i got a call from john thompson he wants to talk to you

and he says come to my office at this certain time he's listen so he puts him on the speakerphone he says sonny i just want you to know

Bobby was an asshole. Charles deserved to make the Olympic team.
He was the second best player there.

Bobby didn't like Charles. He never told us why.

Charles got down to the final 20, but he was never, he was the second best player. He should have made the team, but Bobby just didn't like him.

He was going to be, he was the second best player there. And I said, Coach, I really appreciate the call.
And I want to thank you for the kind words.

He said, you know, I said, why did he not like me? He said, he never told us why, but he just didn't like you. And I said, that's fine.
So he hangs up.

And Sonny says to me, wow, I'm a little surprised. He says, What do you mean? He says, I thought you were the best player in the country.
I said, Well, I'm fucking not.

I said, Coach,

I saw the greatest player I've ever seen in my life. We became friends.
It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. He's a little taller than me.
He's about 6'6.

He's jet black.

He can outrun everybody. He can outjump everybody.

And he is out here trying to go.

And I said, he said, what's his name? I said, his name is Michael Jordan. He says, and I think Michael is either a freshman or a sophomore.
He wasn't the man as a coach.

And I'm used to playing against Melvin Turpin, Sam Bowie, Kenny Sky Walker,

Dominique Wilkins, and those flowers at Georgia. I played against Hakeem in college.

I'm not playing against Slam. I played against Fox Slam Pajama.
Yeah. As a freshman or a sophomore, I can't remember which one it was.
So I'm used to playing against like real deal dudes.

I mean, Florida had a guy named Ronnie Williams and Vernon DeLance. They were awesome.
And I'm like, I said, dude, this dude is something scary. I've never seen coach.

Like I said, he's a little taller than me. He can outrun everybody.
I said, and he got an attitude. He's out here.

And man, that was the first time I played against Michael. And it was scary, Bill.
Like I say, he was going.

I see Roy Williams talk about, like, I had to tell Michael to stop going so hard every day, even in practice. I mean, he's wired.
I'll give you another story.

So we're playing in the Tournament of the Americas in Portland, Oregon.

We're playing Puerto Rico. So me, David Robinson, Chuck Daly.

And David Robinson go play 18 holes that morning. So we're done.

We said, Chuck, let's go get some rest. We got a game tonight.
Michael says, I'm going to play 18 more. Chuck says, we got a game tonight.

He says, I'm going to play 18 more. So we leave.
He goes play 18.

We went back and got some rest. We get to the game.
And Michael, we're all getting dressed. And David, he's like, David, you got this dude.
Charles, you got this dude.

Irving, you got this dude. Michael looks up, says, I got him.

And Chuck says, he's the point guard. Michael says, I got him.

Chuck says, okay bill

we start the game michael scream at this little kid from puerto rico

don't you ever say anything about me in the newspaper he's guarding this dude like it's game seven this after 36 holes bill he screamed at this little kid and we're looking around like yo man there's something wrong with this dude He's screaming at this kid from Puerto Rico.

Don't you ever say anything about me? I read what you said in the newspaper.

He's doing that little drill, that little drill where you turn people, which most people are fast enough, you can't turn him. He's guarding this dude like it's game seven,

and he's screaming at this kid. That was the first time I realized he didn't have a full deck.
So then

we're in the Olympics and we're playing Croatia.

Yeah.

They got Tony Kukos, who's averaging like 40 points a game.

Him and Scotty and Michael says, Chuck, we're going to take turns guarding Scott, Tony Kuko.

We're not going to let him score. God's averaging 40 points a game.
You know, one thing about those international teams, they run the same play

for the same guy. Yeah.

It was one of, it's the best defensive performance I've ever seen.

These dudes are talking in timeouts. They're screaming at us,

let us get over the pick. Just head for a second.

We're going under on this one like they're the guarding this dude they're like we're not gonna let him score i think he finished like some seven for 30 something like that it was some of the best that's why i said michael is wired different

uh he uh it was beautiful and amazing those are the two most interesting things that i've ever seen him do man

he just wired differently

Yeah, that's why the Pippin stuff was sad after the last dance that that relationship went sideways because as great as Jordan was, I always felt like those guys together were its own kind of awesome thing.

And I don't know, I always felt like Jordan appreciated it, and then Pippin feels like he seems like he's underappreciated with that whole last dance. And it's really sad.

You know, first of all, I have never won a championship, but if you won six championships, that's pretty damn special.

Yeah, that should you should be bonded by that. But jealousy is a dangerous thing, man.

Yeah.

Jealousy is a dangerous thing and it's really unfortunate um michael jordan made us all a lot of money right he made us all a lot of money uh nba wise shoe apparel wise clothing deals commercials see bill that's the thing a lot of people don't understand athletes were not making commercials until michael jordan nobody had a shoe deal You saw that movie Air.

Nobody was getting a percentage of shoes until Michael Jordan. he's made

converse yeah he's made uh they weren't making no percentage of shoes back then they were getting a little money him and magic but they weren't making any money yeah michael's mom said hey we're gonna get a percentage of shoes michael said no we don't do that he says oh well we're gonna do it now i started getting paid because of magic michael jordan But like I say, nobody was vacant money for shoes.

Nobody was shooting. Now,

seeing jocks in commercials like saying hello. So shout out to Michael Jordan for making making us all a lot of money, brother.

You know, speaking of commercials, LeBron did that Forever King commercial. Did you see it? That Nike thing?

He did.

I probably saw it, but didn't pay it that much attention.

Yeah, it was like this,

I don't know, 45-second commercial about all the people he's vanquished. And it's like just close-up shots of him with a crown on.

I think he's, I don't really understand what his MO is. And if you talk about it, it's like, well, you're being critical.
And it's like,

this guy's one of the best players of all time and it's

that's the only thing i hate about lebron first of all he's a great great player he's an amazing person really nice guy but for him and his guys if you don't say he's the greatest ever it's like you could commit treason right you're either for them or against them it's like can i just say you're one of the greatest players of all time no you cannot you cannot

If you do not say he's the greatest of all time, you're committing treason. I mean, you can't even mention Michael, Kobe, Bill Russell.
I mean, that's a faction of Kareem people.

I actually feel like Kareem's the one guy who get left out. 100% agree.
Yeah. I mean, because nobody has a better career, high school, college, and pros, than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

And he left four years at UCLA that he could have been in the NBA just putting up stats and he would have been one of the best guys.

And, you know, so, but that's the only thing I don't like about LeBron and his guys. They're like, if you don't say he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, they hate you.
And it's really sad.

And it pisses me off when it happens too. But, you know, man, it's just people's opinion.
Because first of all, most of these young punks today in the public, they never saw Michael Jordan play.

Right. They never,

most of them also never saw Kobe play. They definitely didn't see Kareem or Bill Russell play.
But for some reason, this generation,

oh, you're being blasphemous, saying LeBron. And listen, I got number love and respect for LeBron because I said this before.

He's probably had the best career ever for a high school player.

Him and Kareem. No, I'm talking about this for his high school players.
Because if you remember some, Bill, Kobe struggled in the beginning. Right.
Kevin Garnett struggled in the beginning.

All those high school players struggle a lot. Remember, they booed Kobe early in his career.
But I can say this.

LeBron James is the only player in my 40 years in the NBA who came right out of high school and played well.

I had his first game.

I had his first game. LeBron James in my 40 years, like Kobe became great.
Kevin Garnett became great. McGrady, all these guys.
But I can honestly say.

LeBron James is the only one who came out of high school who played well right away.

I think he's he's in a weird spot with this Luca situation because from the moment. It's time to move on, brother.
Well, but I don't think he feels like it's time to move on.

Like when they did the press conference.

Bill, see, this is the problem. Yeah.
Kareem did it with Magic. Tim Duncan did it with Tony Parker, Ginobly, and Kawi Kawali.

He doesn't want to do it, though. You have to, Bill.

Listen, I agree with you. I'm just telling you what I'm watching.

Like, when they put that statement out and they said, like, we got to be more committed to winning a title, it's like, you've Luke on your team.

They're not trying. Yeah.
They went out and got Luca Dunczi. They're not trying.
Hey, man, I don't like when guys,

the baton has to be passed from everybody.

It's passed from everybody. The Lakers haven't been relevant.

The bubble was the last time they've been relevant.

Right. I hear people talking about

LeBron's putting up good stats, but the Lakers have not been relevant since the bubble. Now, are they relevant? Bringing in Luca helps, but I'm not going to pick them.

They lost to the Timberwoods last year, who were, they're not relevant with OKC,

the Nuggets, or the Rockets, in my opinion. I'm not going to pick the T-Woods or the Lakers over those top three teams.

Well, you saw it. from the course of your career.
Like the league is about young guys and then guys in their prime and then older guys trying to hang on.

Yeah, but once you're hitting that, once you're in that last group, it's so much tougher to go 200 games. Yeah, but it's easier.
It should make it easier. Kareem, like, okay.
I bet Kareem won.

Yeah, you can't count Kareem though. I mean, Kareem had the most unstoppable shot in the world.
I know that, but what you say, Magic were responsible for the last, him and James Worthy.

Pollard were responsible for the last two championships. And for Tim Duncan, who's the greatest power forward ever, yeah,

I think Duncan, Parker Geno,

not Duncan, Duncan,

excuse me, Parker, Genobley, and Kawhi Lennon are probably responsible for the last two championships. There's nothing wrong.
He still gets the championship ring.

If the Lakers win the championship and Luca wins the MVP, don't LeBron get a championship ring? Come on, man. Stop it, Bill.

I'm on your side. I agree with you.
I don't know what he sees. Like, because the move would be,

I've got the, I lucked out. I have one of the best four guys in the league on my team again.
How do I fit in at the age of

three to add him? I know.

So, but I don't know if he wants it because it seems like if he could have forced a trade over the summer, he probably would have.

I would look at it as like, this is an amazing situation. You can pick your spots.
You can probably play 55 games during this season.

Luca will do all the work and then turn it on in the playoffs for 10 weeks.

And you win. You win if you make the finals.
You win if the team succeeds. It's like Ernie Johnson.
Ernie wins when your show's good. It's not Ernie's not like, I got to get my takes off today.

Ernie's like, I have these three guys. I have to make them better.
I win if the show's good. That's how LeBron has to be.
You know what's interesting about you saying that? I hate these guys

so much who whine about that bill.

As a guy

who was dying for better players around me,

when you see

these

where guys can't play together, you're saying to yourself, like, Kyrie didn't want to play with LeBron. I'm like, why not?

Right.

Kobe didn't want to play with

Kobe and Shaq. I'm like, what do you mean y'all don't want to play together?

That got personal, though. I know.

But that's my point. These guys drive me crazy.
Like, I'm dying to play with other great players. And like, who wants to come to Philly and play with me? Who want to come to Phoenix and play with me?

Like, when I hear these guys, like, I want to be the guy. Like, I want to be the guy, too, on a winning team.

I don't have to be the guy, especially when I'm not the same player. When I hear this stupidity, like, Kobe and Shaq probably should have won three more championships.

If Shaq had to say, hey, you know what, Kobe,

you're responsible for the last championship, probably.

I probably can win a couple more if I just shut the hell up and play. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, a crisp, refreshing beer with only 95 calories.

And just like some of the best plays we've seen in the court throughout the NBA Cup, Ultra is best served cold.

Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with exclusive prizes and courtside tickets. Michelob Ultra, Superior is worth playing for.

Enter now at mickelobultra.com/slash courtside. Michelobultra courtside 25 to 26.
No purchase necessary. Open to U.S.
Residence 21 Plus. Begins on October 1st, 2025, ends on June 30th, 2026.

Multiple entry periods. See official rules at micalobulture.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.
This episode is brought to you by Loom.

Packed calendars, non-stop emails. Yeah.
Work can have you feeling pretty stuck sometimes. Get your team unstuck with Loom by Atlassian.

It's AI-powered video messaging that lets you quickly record your screen, your camera, and your voice to share updates with your team whenever, wherever, even across time zones.

Unstuck your process, projects, and teams with video communication from Loom. Try Loom today at loom.com.
That is L-O-O-M.com.

And now it's time for a special part of today's episode brought to you by YouTube, one of my favorite places. Mark your calendars, NFL fans, Kansas City, the Los Angeles Chargers.

They're facing off in San Paulo on Friday, September 5th for the first time ever. YouTube streaming it free for absolutely everyone.
It's 100% free. Carol G will be the halftime performer.

Can't miss the game, obviously. It's Mahomes.
It's AFC West. It's a classic.
Coverage starts at 7 p.m. ET on September 5th for the 8 p.m.
ET kickoff.

Is there a better way to spend your Friday night?

I can't think of one.

I like the Chiefs.

As you've heard from my podcast, I'm just feeling like an off year for the Chargers and the Chiefs laying the SmackDown, trying to remind everybody that they're here. The neutral field thing.

I'm just, we'll talk about it on Thursday's podcast, but I am in on the Chiefs in this game. And you could be in.
You could be one of the 100% of the people watching this game live.

for free on YouTube on September 5th. Carol G performing at halftime.
Watch it live only on YouTube. Certain local broadcasts available.

Head to youtube.com slash NFL on Friday, September 5th at 7 p.m. ET,

8 p.m. ET kickoff.
Chiefs, Chargers. You might have heard of both of those teams.
Game available via YouTube globally, except in Canada and certain other countries.

Game will also be available on free over there, broadcast television, local markets of the participating clubs. And this is why I defend Duncan so much.

And Duncan now, as the years pass and people can just look up his stats and are like, oh, this guy's better. And this guy, like, Duncan could have averaged, I don't know, five, six more points a game.

He could have had better everything if he wanted to, but he was all about, like, we're winning 70% of our games. I'll come in and out when they need me.
And when they really need me, guess what?

I'm the best power forward of all time and I'll be there. But he was very generous with, you know, all he cared about was how the team was doing.
And he was inclusive and how to raise guys' levels.

And I don't know why we don't treasure that as a basketball fan. You guys, you guys, I'm not of you guys in this.
I'm on your side on this.

You guys in the media, not you, particular jackasses on television. It's like, whose team is it? And things like that.
And that's like, I'm sitting back watching. I'm like, yo, man.

Like, let's say hypothetically, is it Dr. J's championship or Moses' championship? It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
That's why that goes back to my original point.

Man, I would have loved to won the championship with another guy beside me. That's what drives me crazy about these fools on television.
They go on TV every day. Like I was, you know,

this weekend.

This weekend, I was saying to myself, oh, shit.

I would hate to be Arch Mannock and Bill Belichick this week. Because I know how the losers on television are going to react.

I know how stupid the public is. They don't even understand.
But I was saying to myself, man,

I'd hate to be Arch Manning Monday,

and I'd hate to be Bill Belichick Tuesday, because I know how these fools on television are. I knew they were going to crush Arch Manning, and I knew they were going to crush Bill Belichick.

And I sent Bill a text Monday. I says, hey, man, because you know, me and Bill are close.
I said, I just want you to know,

I know it's a lot of people hoping you fail,

but I always want you to know you're my guy and I'm rooting for you. Have a great season.

But as I knew

this morning,

They were going to crush him.

That's the way this business is now. It's unfortunate.
And like I say, I knew Archie Manning's played one football game of significance. He's an 18, 19-year-old kid.

He goes against a hell of a team against Ohio State.

And I said,

he's on the road. On the road.
First big start. Huge spotlight.
I said, man, these guys, these fools on TV are going to kill him Tuesday. Excuse me.
Kill him Sunday and Monday.

But that's the environment we're in now, Bill. And it's really unfortunate.

I mean, it's really unfortunate because that's the way you get recognized and make money now. And that's, and that's sad.

I thought it really hurt the NBA the last couple years. And, you know, you guys took some bullets on it too, from talking about old generation versus new generation.

You guys were too negative about the current game.

But

I actually was more on your side with some of that stuff. The stuff I don't like is when we're, you know, and there's people that do it that I actually like, like you and I both like Stephen A.

But when he was on the, when he was on the NBA countdown show and every halftime is about this guy's got to step up because they're losing because of him. Where is he? And it's just, I don't know.

It's just not for me. I think what we're losing, number one, you have a great point, but this,

we got so many great players in the NBA, but these fools spend all all their time comparing, like, Michael Jordan's dead, okay?

Michael Jordan's dead. He's been retired forever.
Yeah, over 20 years.

These fools spend all their time comparing him to LeBron. I'm like, why? Michael Jordan's been dead for 20-some years.

Let's let LeBron be LeBron.

We're starting to do the stupid shit in golf now. Man, Scottish Sheffield is just as good as Tiger.
I'm like, damn, y'all just see him ruin the NBA.

We can't appreciate LeBron's greatness or Steph Curry's greatness. We got to compare him to a guy that's been dead for 20 years.

I'm like, why can't Michael Jordan is great? But so is LeBron. So is Kobe.
So is Steph. So is Joker.
Why do y'all have to get on TV? First, because they got no talent.

They got no talent, Bill, because they know people are going to go on the internet and argue with them or go on the internet on these radio shows and argue with them. That's why they do it.

Now, I see these fools doing it in golf. Scotty Scheffler, he's great.
I love Scotty Scheffler. He's good as Tiger.
I'm like, well,

I'm sitting here like

Scotty Scheffler is 29.

And he's won four majors. Tiger won four majors at 24.
After winning winning three amateurs in a row before he even turned. I'm not sure.
And Tigers won 30 times by then.

And Tiger and

Scotty's won 17 times. He's 29.

Why can't we just appreciate his greatness? Why y'all have to be lazy

and just bring that up? Tigers is a once-in-a-generation type player. Scotty, if he keeps rolling, he's the best in this generation.

But these guys, they need hot takes takes on television and radio because they need foods to click on them on the internet or call down to their radio shows it drives me crazy i says michael's the best i've ever seen i love him and respect him the next i've seen is kobe now the last 20 years been steph and lebron

i don't have to compare them I can appreciate their greatness. Scotty is the best we got going today.
I don't have to compare him to Tiger or Jack or Arnie or Gary Player, but

these guys have become lazy because they know people are going to get on their computer and come after them.

Or a lot of them have radio shows. I have friends in Philadelphia where I live during the summer.
I play golf with them in the morning. Yeah.

And I said, what are you going to talk about today? They're like, we're going to talk about... Cole, Michael, Kobe, LeBron,

guys like that. I'm like, why are you doing doing that? Is Jalen Hurts good enough, even though he already won a Super Bowl? Yes.

Can you win two Super Bowls with Jalen Hurts? That's our topic today. Yeah.
And they tell me the truth. They're like, Charles, you don't understand how the media works.

I said, this is in the 80s and 90s, Bill.

And they said, this is how the media works. We got to get fools to call in and argue with us for four hours.

We don't believe half the shit that we say. I said, what?

He says, I'm on radio for four hours. Yeah.
If I say Michael's the best, half the people are going to call in and say he was.

The other half are going to call in and talk about

LeBron, he's the greatest. But then some sprinkler is going to come in, talk about Bill and Wilt.
He says, that's what our job is in the media. We are on radio for four hours.

And then I was like, wow, that's interesting. And these are some of my great friends who have some of the most popular shows in Philadelphia in the 80s and 90s.

They're like, our job is just to get people and call in and argue for four hours. It taught me a lot about the media.
Now, the difference is now they're all on TV making millions of dollars. Yeah.

And it's, and I, that was one of the reasons I was hesitant to do the ESPN deal, to be honest with you. I was going to ask you about that.
Because I don't want to do that.

Like, I want to go on TV. One of the reasons I love doing your podcast, I got, and I'm not saying it's going to be a podcast.
I don't do many podcasts.

I like you. And I know you're going to be honest and a straight shooter.

Even if I disagree,

I know. One of the reasons I hated Skip Bayless,

like, yo, man,

people, you can disagree with people,

but people believe television is so powerful. People believe what we say.

They do.

And I don't mind agreeing or disagreeing with people, but I ain't going to say shit just to get people to call in and argue with me. That's one of the reasons I like you.

I know you're like, I'm going to try to do my job to the best of my abilities. I don't care who clicks on to me.
I ain't trying to get people to like me or dislike me.

That's the reason I first, I develop a hatred for skill Baileys. Like, yo, man,

you can't, like, people believe what we say.

Right. Like, I had one of these.
I had one of these a couple of weeks ago because I genuinely think Josh Allen was the best QB in the league last year, even though the results didn't happen.

He wasn't. And I was saying, like, so trying to figure out who's the quarterback hierarchy heading into this year.
And I'm like, I just think Josh is the best QB. I know Mahomes has the resume.

I don't think he was that good last year by his standards. And I can't put him first based on what he did three years ago.

So, I so I've got friends who work at ESPN, yeah, and there's a racial component of it too, right? Well, and I,

the Yoko Jimbi thing was brutal, that was that was the worst. I says, They asked me my opinion, I said, I think Josh Allen's MVP,

right? They're like,

But what about Lamar? I said, Lamar had a great year, he's amazing. I love Lamar.
I said, But your question is, who had the best year? I says, Who's Derek?

Who's Josh Allen got in the backfield? Now, the Cook kid is a good player. He's not Derrick Henry.

He's not Derrick Hall. Which coaching staff would you rather have? Which infrastructure?

Who are Josh Allen wide receivers? I think the best one was

Shakir. Shakir.
Yeah. And then the kid who, the Coleman kid, who's the rookie.
And then you got the kid who comes to games

who's naked.

And I says, I says, Josh does not have, and they had a better record and they beat him head to head.

I said, so if he's got Derrick Henry, the best running back in the league, he's got better wide receivers, but Josh Allen,

they thought the Bills were going to take a step back because they cut everybody after last year. I picked him to miss the playoffs last year.
They lost so many guys. It didn't even seem conceivable.

They've got to get down the Ravens. Yeah.
Why was he not the MVP?

If this was the NBA, we'd be going, Josh Allen needs more help. And Josh Allen's agents would be leaking stuff.
They got to make a move. They need a star receiver.

And that's another thing I hate about the move,

to be honest with you. The ESPN move.
Yes. These guys get on TV every day and says,

Are they wasting

Giannis's career?

Giannis won a title already. I know, but I'm saying they're wasting the Joker's career.
And I'm saying

they got to get LeBron some help.

Yeah. And I'm saying, well, wait a minute.
I don't remember y'all saying that shit about me and Patrick Ewing.

Y'all never got on TV and said, we're wasting Charles Bartholomew's career in Philadelphia. I was saying it, but I was in a bar in Boston.
I didn't have a microphone.

It drives me crazy because there's this thing now.

If you don't win every year, they want you to move. They're like,

Giannis got to move. They're wasting him.
I'm like, wait a minute. I was in Philly.
I had no help. Patrick Young was in New York.
He had no help.

I don't remember y'all getting on TV saying, help Patrick, help Charles. But on TV now,

should Giannis want to leave Milwaukee? Should the Joker want to leave Denver?

I'm like, damn,

what happened

when y'all have this new dynamic? I'm like, damn, I want to help in Philly.

Y'all didn't never say Charles needed help.

But now, every star, like, he's got to get out of there.

I know, but think about Dirk Nowitzki in 2011 as the best example of this, where they could have done this whole cycle with him for four years after they lose that Warriors, and he stays and he ends up winning there.

And that's like the best title anyone won in the last 15 years.

That's like two two titles. Yeah.
But there's this new thing.

There's this new thing now, Bill, when they see a great player, especially if he's in a small market. They're like, he's got to get out of there.
He needs to move.

I'm like, damn, where were y'all when I was in Philly? Right. When I was going out there with Shelton Jones, no disrespect.

When I was going out there, Manu Bowl and Shelton Jones, I remember y'all saying, hey, we got to get Charles some help in Philly. Some of it's the people around the players, too.
It's the agents.

It's the handlers. They'll have a trainer now, and they're just kind of constantly, you should be bigger.

You should be a bigger star in a bigger market. You got to get more money.

You're better than this guy. You're better than your teammate.
And then you start planting the seeds and you go. You mentioned the ESPN thing.

I talked on a pod a couple months ago, and I feel like I have a pretty unique perspective because I did the NBA show there and I saw how they do shows and how they prioritize the pregame, the halftime, the commercial breaks, giving people time to speak.

And the reason you guys had the best studio show of all time, other than the talent, was that you had these producers that actually let it breathe, that gave you like eight, nine minutes at halftime in a row to have a conversation.

Do you feel like you're going to be able to do that at ESPN? And what happens if you can't?

Well, number one, thank you for the compliment.

We don't know.

This has been

one of the worst.

TNT just sucks, to be honest with you, Bill.

They made this deal.

They haven't told us when we're going to work.

They haven't told us how it's going to work.

Because

we've been talking behind the scenes. Like, do we have to, after the game, are we going to get any time? Are they going to say, hey, you guys got to go to Sports Center?

Well, listen, they've always gone right to Sports Center. That's always how it's worked.
And I've asked that question.

Like,

you're right. That's the best part of our show.

After the game, we can have conversation and have fun.

Are they going to say, you guys got three minutes, five minutes, 15, 20, 30, 45?

Like, are we going to go straight to Sports Center? They haven't given us an answer whatsoever.

And TNT, I think they sold the show and they haven't been non-communicable at all. What do they care? They got paid.
They got paid.

Because the thing is with these shows, you can do the pregame show forever and it's fun, but it's basically like a podcast. You're guessing what's going to happen.

The post-game is the secret sauce because you just watch the game you're reacting to it yes and that was when i did it i would get mad because they didn't give a about hearing from us after the game and it's like well we shouldn't be here then why are we on location just you do a four minute segment with us just setting up the game is the easy part now you can tell why team won and the team lost who played good who played bad like that's that is the secret sauce They have not said anything to us about, hey, are we going to be able to do that after the game?

And like I say, TNT didn't care. They just took, like, they think we morons.
If they think we don't think they got paid something, I mean, come on, we're not feeling. Oh, yeah.

Also, they have a rule with the finals about on ABC, you have to get the fuck out of there and throw it to local news, like with a certain, so you're going to have to switch channels to watch you guys, which ain't nothing.

I want to tell you something, what you just said, because to me, it's going to be one of the biggest issues.

I've been telling my friends, they're like, what do you think? I says, well, number one, we're concerned about the whole ESPN thing. It's for us, do we have to go to the sports center?

I said, but I think the NBA's got a big problem.

I says,

how are they going to tell people what night the games are on?

I says, the games have been on 40 years.

They've been on ESPN on Tuesday, excuse me, on ESP, on TNT on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Right.
And ESPN Wednesday, Friday, then Saturday night, then some Sundays. But Saturday is gone because of Amazon.

So

when I met with NBC,

they said we're going to do games on Monday and Tuesday. And then when the NFL ends, we're going to do Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday.

I think ESPN is going to do Wednesday and Friday.

And I think Amazon is going to do Thursday and Saturday.

But my thing is, how are regular fans

going to like, okay, it's Tuesday, especially when they start putting games on. Where do I go? Well, like, because, you know, sometimes the game is going to be on Peacock.

And, like, it's not going to be on NBC.

I think that's a huge dilemma for the NBA. Guess what? They don't care.
I agree.

They got so much money. They're going to wipe their tears with cash.
Bill,

I'm so glad you said that.

I think it's a big deal because they just took all the money from all three networks. I don't think they give a shit about the fans.

And

I think this is going to come back to bite them, to be honest with you. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Ads.
The best B2B marketing gets wasted on the wrong people.

So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn Ads. LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, including 130 million decision makers.

And that's where it stands apart from the other ad buys. You could target your buyers by job title, industry, company role, seniority skills, company revenue.

So you can stop wasting budget on the wrong audience. That's why LinkedIn Ads generates the highest B2B return and ad spend on all online ad networks.
Seriously, all of them.

Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/slash Simmonsbill.

Terms and conditions apply.

This episode is brought to you by Boarshead. You know, one of the best parts of football season? Getting together with friends and family to watch a game in the tasty food.

And guys, if Boar's Head isn't on your home gating menu, you're fumbling big time. That'll help you serve the perfect game day spread, premium meats, cheeses, dips, and more.

Trust me, nothing better than a Boar's Head sandwich during halftime. Throw in their blazing buffalo chicken dip.
Delicious. And you may even score an extra point or two.

Elevate your game day entertaining with Boarshead. Visit your local Boarshead Deli for platter options.
Boarshead, committed to craft since 1905.

Well, if you talk to anybody from the NBA, as I know you have,

how many years have they been complaining about how ESPN covers the league? I mean, at least 10, right? 10, 12, 15.

Like, I hate the, we hate the discourse. We hate that they do that.
And it's like, you just took their money again. You can't say anything.
You took their money one more time.

So now that's a new point. Yeah, but they took the money.
But also to take the money from NBC and Amazon, it's like, yeah, we're just going to take the money.

And then the thing that's scary, this deal is for 11 years. Right.
So now

people can play in all they want to. For the next 11 years,

they don't give a shit about the fans. They're like, y'all, if y'all find the game, fine, just make sure the check clears.

Well, I think Amazon is going to do a really good job because I think they've done a good job with football. And

I think their attitude toward how they're going to cover it and how much attention, like, they're going to be fine. NBC is going to do it like they did NFL.

I think they can all be fine. They just got to figure out how the regular fan are going to find it.
Right. Because that's a frustrating thing with NFL where you're like, what's oh, it's Friday.

Wait a second. This game's on, it's Black Friday on Amazon.
You're floating around. Yes.
Okay, like, okay.

We know the ESPN got the games on Wednesday and Friday. That's pretty stable, but okay.
Yeah.

Are the games on NBC or they on Peacock? And again, what two nights is Amazon? Are they okay?

Yeah. They took TNT's nights.
Do they get TNT Tuesday? And I have league passed two.

Well, wait a minute. So TNT,

Amazon,

you get TNT's Thursday, but you don't get their Tuesday. That goes to NBC.
Yeah. Like, I know people think that's simple, but you should always try to make it simple for the fans.

Well, and then for you, it's going to be like, where do you get you guys? Because that's the other piece people are going to care about. And then on top of it, you're going to be at ESPN.

I'm sure there's going to be some back and forth with different people on the shows. You're not going to put up with it because you're old and you don't care.

You're just going to go right back at everybody.

I think, listen.

It's going to be an honor and a privilege to work for ESPN because they're the greatest sports network ever. Yeah.
But I just, I just hope that we get to do what we do, man. Me too.
Like,

see, you're one of the few people who understand

the question, the points that I'm asking. Like, wait, we got to go to local news or we got to go to sports center or we got to do both.
Like, how do I, the game just ended. How do I find you guys?

Yeah. Oh, I have to flip channels.
Yeah. I mean,

they're in commercial. Am I on the right channel? What am I doing?

There's a few people who actually understand that. You're like, okay, we got to go to local news.
Like, we've never had to go to local news before.

You know, we've never had to go to sports center. And yeah, but most of the people that produce these shows have never been on the shows.

And when you've been on it, you understand the rhythm a bit differently.

For whatever reason, Tim Kiley, your guy forever, he fundamentally understood how to make you guys succeed and that you guys needed time and you needed to breathe. And that was what made it special.

Most people don't, they don't see it that way. Now you don't understand it.
Now I'm hoping that we get to breathe. Yeah, you're going to have like, trust me, I did him a couple of years.

You're going to have like a two and a half minute halftime show on location at the finals. Like, he was like, wait, I just started my point.
We're going to commercial again. What happened?

You know, and I, and I've been able to scream at TNT people. I've done it live on air.
I'm not done with my point. Hold that damn commercial.

And I want to make my point because it was an important point.

But like I say, man,

I don't know, but I'm concerned.

I ain't never going to get on your show or any show online. Like, I am concerned about going forward.

Well, I will say we've said goodbye to inside the NBA, it feels like, for three straight years, and you guys are still on. You guys are like boxers that keep retiring.

It's like when Ali retired over and over again in the 70s, and then he would fight again.

You know, this was, you know, I really grew to hate the people I work for, to be honest with you, Bill.

I could tell. No, because, Bill, that's a way you treat people.
Yeah.

We should not learn that we got fired or whatever from the internet.

Ernie Johnson deserves better.

Literally, this is a true story.

We were playing golf in the playoffs.

I was playing with my boy Alex and Underdog and Mike. We're literally in between shots looking at the internet.

One article comes out, TNT lost the package.

Like, guys, we lost the package. Another article comes out.

We kept the package.

Another article came out. We lost the package.

We're literally playing golf. And in between shots,

we're reading the internet.

And

then

nothing happens. Nobody says anything.
And I'm literally sitting at a house on a Friday night.

I get a text from Van Pelt,

Bob Myers,

L. Duncan, and Brian Winhorse.

Welcome me to the family. This is a Friday night.
Nobody's told us anything.

I get this text from four ESPN people. Welcome me to the family.

About two hours later, I get a call from TNT.

Hey,

this story broke, no shit.

The show's going to ESPN.

And I'm like, well, y'all had to negotiate something

before

it broke.

How about a hair's up? Ernie Johnson. I also been there saying how'd they negotiate it without knowing if you were going to be on the show?

That's my point.

That's my point, Bill. And I'm sitting here like, oh, welcome to the family.
It was a Friday night. And I was like, wait, welcome to what family?

Then I said, I got the call from TNT like two hours later saying, hey, unfortunately, the story broke. Like, the story broke because y'all got a damn deal.

How about if y'all signed the deal, call us for immediately and said, hey, God, we got a deal to trade y'all show the ESPN. And that's one of the reasons I developed animosity toward them.

Like, yo, just tell us. Because if he had to call us and said, you know what, guys, this is a bad deal.

They want us to go from 1.2 to 2.5 billion a year for 11 years.

We can't afford that. That's all TNT had to say, Bill.

And we would have said, we understand.

That's not a great deal. But for us to hear from the internet, and ESPN people that we lost the package, that's just unprofessional.
And I get mad for Ernie because Ernie's the godfather.

Ernie Johnson should never have to hear from other people that he lost his gig.

Right. Well, he was also telling everybody, I don't want another job.
This is where I want to end my career. I have these crazy ties with TNT and TBS and Atlanta, and I don't want to do anything else.

Well,

so

I'm with him on that.

And I'll tell you the truth, Bill. The only reason me and earny decide to stay was that people at tnt got to kept their jobs because

i got off so i met with amazon

and i met with nbc

got a offer for more money from nbc

i thought that's where you were gonna go

well

I probably would have went there. They had a bunch of bullshit.
They were talking about, not going to lie, they offered me more money.

But

when they sent the contract to me, it had Kentucky Derby.

It had the U.S. Open.

Oh. Sam would have liked you on both of those.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

It had

five appearances on Today.

I'm still intrigued. Five appearances on Jimmy Fallon,

the Olympics in 28 and 30.

And I says,

I guess y'all didn't hear the part where I wanted to. Because I will tell you what's funny.

I liked all those things.

Bill, I'm not going to work more as I get older. I'm working less.
I would have liked to see that. Because what was very ironic about the contract,

when we first started talking,

he says,

I was going to work two days a week, which I hadn't worked two days a week in 25 years. Yeah.

I said, you know what? Because I like the guys. Because the boss at NBC hired me a turner.
I got a lot of love for Mark Lazarus. I said, you know what? I can work Monday and Tuesday.

I'm good with that.

So I'm like, okay,

send me a contract. Let me take a look at it.
But then by the time I got the contract,

they're like, well, what's football over? You're going to work three days a week. That was my first red flag.
And then when they put Kentucky Derby, U.S. Open,

Olympics 28 and 30, I says, hell no.

And

so then

the thing with Turner comes back

and they're like, guys,

we can keep the show going.

And we get to keep everybody at Turner. And me and Ernie were like,

okay,

that's best scenario.

Because one of the things that intrigued me and Ernie about NBC,

they told us we could bring all the people with us.

Yeah. Which was me and Ernie's only concern.

Because

when me and Ernie met with NBC, they're like, you guys can bring anybody you want to.

And I was like, we can bring everybody behind the scene. They said, they said, we'll film this show in Atlanta

and you can bring anybody you want to. So that got me and Ernie's attention.
Yeah.

But then the thing with ESPN came up and we're like, well, if we can keep, stay the same and bring everybody with us. Let's take that deal.

All right. Well, it sounds like you're still conflicted about it.

I'm not conflicted because 200 people are going to keep their job. They're like my family members.
Yeah. And that's all I really cared about.
Because, Bill, I will tell you something.

This was a very difficult couple years for me mentally

because you know, I'm in

the sports world

my whole life, I ain't never been around a lot of real people.

You know, all my NBA friends and TV friends got a lot of money,

and I'm blessed. I'm not being an ungrateful person, I'm very blessed and thankful.
But to be around

my co-workers,

TV people

who were going to lose their job

and to hear them talking about mortgage, taking their kids out of private school that they never had to worry about, because we never, under any circumstances, thought that TNT was going to lose the NBA.

But it was becoming increasingly clear.

Man, we just fired a gazillion people from NBA TV,

which was painful because I knew all those guys and people behind the scenes. But for the last, especially last year, but really the last couple of years, and it was like we might lose the NBA

to be around people who I genuinely care about, to hear them talk about mortgage, to hear them talking about taking their kids out of private school and things like that, talking about downgrading where they live.

Man, it was really painful for me

because, you know, I'm in the NBA. I ain't ever had one of my friends talk about mortgage and say, I got to downgrade my kids' schooling.
Like, it was really painful for me as a person.

Yeah.

Well,

I mean, I think about the late night shows, right? As the late night era is kind of ending, like Colbert shows in.

200 people work for that show. I mean,

Kim is deciding how long he wants to go. 200 people are hinging on the decision.
And like, and they act like

these people can just go get another job. I says, it doesn't work like that.

I said, man, jobs, we jobs just don't grow on tree, especially in our community. Yeah.
Because if we fire those 200 people

in Atlanta, number one, 200 people ain't going to have a job.

A couple of, like, they were talking about,

well, if you go to Amazon, you got to move to California. that's a whole different animal

and i'm not even sure what an nbc decide to do their show at so people act like well we can just go get another job i'm like it's not that simple if even if amazon want to hire you how many people can just pick up and move to california that's a different animal from a economic standpoint or same thing

If NBC moves everything to New York, that's a whole nother animal.

You in California could have been a reality show that could have potentially funded some of this, too. I know.
Just you living here, I think, would have been absolutely fascinating.

I wouldn't have never lived there.

I think that should have been part of the deal. It's like Amazon, but you have to live here

to pick a neighborhood and you have to be an LA person. They would have to really give me a really good condo or house or something.
Bel Air, you could play Bel Air with that.

Somewhere right by the studio. Okay.
A nice condo, three-bedroom. You can't have more.
I think they have those here. Yeah, I'm a big believer.

You can never have more than two people visiting at the same time. Any more than two people, you're crowded.
Oh, that's interesting. No matter how big your house is? No, I'm not big on guests.

Yeah, that does get tough when you have kids.

Aren't you staying at your kids' house right now?

I am.

My daughter.

My two grandkids, yes.

All right. How old are the grandkids? Three and two.

Little Henry, he's three, and little Charlie, she's two. So at some point, you got to break out the YouTube clips of you going coast to coast.

You know,

my life revolves around Miss Rachel and Daniel Tiger.

That's pretty much it right now. Those are the kids' shows.
Yeah. Yeah, Miss Rachel and Daniel Tiger.
That's pretty much it. And the rest is either.

Watching guard over the swimming pool. Right.
That's it.

That's an important job, though. It's a very important job because you,

man, they were so cute in the beginning. Now they won't sit still.

Like, they were so cute in the beginning. I just sit on your lap and you just kiss them like a million times.

Once they can run, it's over. Oh, my God.
Once they start walking and running, all hair breaks, I need a nap every time I see them. Right after that, I do.
You need a nap.

It is amazing how they go from, oh, you're so cute. But then once they learn to walk and run, they never sit still.
It's crazy.

So you have, to wrap up, you have Philadelphia beating who in the Super Bowl.

You know, I'm hoping it's the Buffalo Bills.

I would like to see either Josh Allen

or

I like Josh Allen a lot as a person.

The Ravens,

the Ravens.

You know,

when you're a great player

like Lamar and Josh are,

you're on the shit list like me

until you win the championship. And it sucks because, you know, it's a team game, but when you're a great player, you get all the credit and you get all the blame.
Yeah.

So

I would like to see Josh or Lamar win the Super Bowl.

I think Baltimore has a better team because their defense is better.

Slightly better coaching staff. Buffalo is a better offensive line.
Yeah, but they got that, you know, they revamped their defense last year. Yeah.

So, but my Eagles, man, they're loaded. Their defense got to grow up.

But Joshua Lamar.

So, so I had Buffalo over Green Bay before the Parsons trade. One day.

That was about that. Don't you?

It almost seems too easy now. Now it's like, you know, that Parsons trade.

The love kid got to play better. True.
He was hurt last year. He was hurt.
See, that's the thing that sucks about sports. He got hurt in the first game.
And then had two more injuries.

But once you get hurt,

and people think when you come back, you're healthy. When you come back, you're not healthy.
It takes a while to get back. And then he gets hurts again.

But you know what? I give them credit. Hey, man.
You know, we did it in Philadelphia the last couple years. Right.
That's why Howie's the best general manager.

That goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Man, very seldom do you have a chance to win.

Like, very, you give Howard, like, I need a wide receiver. He went and got AJ.

And he's like, We're not good enough. I need a running back.
He goes out and gets Saquon.

The Packers, like, man, when you have a chance to win, you got to go for it.

Well, that, but that was the frustration with Denver for me, with what they did with Jokic the last two years, where, you know,

they won the title and they're like, okay, we won a title. It's like, you have the best guy of this decade.

Every year that this guy's on your team, you have to spend as most money, the most money you possibly can. Because this is like, this is fucking generational.
This is a unicorn.

And they didn't do it last year. They cheaped out, I thought.
but see the problem they got now they're trying to play catch up

and i always and i tell people this

you never catch up

it might be too late

because

now they're not head and shoulders the best starting five

you know right yeah but

but they got rid of their two best players off the bench when they won the championship. Yeah.
And some of that was financial. I understand that.
dude, man,

guys are gifted right arm and leg to win the championship. Your team is going to be worth billions of freaking dollars.
You're going to haggle over 10, 20, 30 million dollars. Think about that, Bill.

Your team, every NBA team, is worth at least $2 billion.

Oh, my four now. The ceiling's four.
Corland got $4.25. So think about this.

You had a chance to keep KCP and Bruce Brown,

probably cost you another 30, maybe 40 million.

You're going to, team going to appreciate $300, $400 million, especially if you win. You're probably going to make that money up if you go deep into playoffs.

Man, if you got a chance to win, you better go for it.

And

they really wasted the Joker of the last couple of years. But like I say, the problem they got now is they're not better than Oklahoma City.
Right.

And I'm not sure they're better than the the Rockets. Yeah, if Thompson goes up a level, Houston could be in the two-spot.
It's a bummer because

I don't know.

I was there for Bird and Magic. You were too in a different way.
You played against them.

Think about this. Hold on.
Perfect example. Go back and look.
This is what when those guys had birds, they bought in somebody every year. Right.
What about the Lakers?

They bought in somebody every year.

You can never stand pat when you win. The Celtics, they brought in Walden one year.

And then the Lakers bring in Michael Thompson.

They brought in Bob McAdoo. Sam Perkins.
Sam Perkins. Like,

that's what made the Lakers and the Celtics the two greatest NBA franchises ever. Hey, we're not trying to win one championship.
We're not trying to win two championships.

We're not trying to win three. That's what made the Celtics and the Lakers the best franchises in NBA history.
They never

might be wired that way. The way they think of this long-term, short-term at the same time about how to build something that's seven, eight years and not two.
Oh, they're going to be the favorite.

Well, actually,

your Celtics would have been the favorite the next five years if they didn't get hurt. Yeah.

At least in the East. Yes, in the East.
But OKC, because they only got to pay

those top three guys.

And I'm going to tell you something:

Hardenstein and Caruso,

they'll give a hometown discount. Yeah.

And then they got more young players and damn draft picks. Because I tell these guys, if I'm Hardenstein and Caruso,

I'm not taking an extra $5 million

to suck.

Well, that was the famous Julian Edelman story when Jacksonville was trying to sign him and he basically took four million less to stay with he's like I'm playing with Tom Brady like I'm gonna factor that in if I'm gonna play with those top three guys in Oklahoma City if I can get five million dollars from a team or I can get three and a half if I get three and a half

I'm gonna make another million in endorsements because I'm on the best team in the NBA and playoff money too, right? You got some of that too.

I don't know Hardenstein and Caruso that well they're really important to okc i guarantee you they'll take a hometown discount to stay because like i say they're going to be favored easily

and even if they don't win the championship they're going to be first or second the next five years easily yeah

well that's the thing i never understood with jokic like if In the old days, people are like, I get to play with Magic. I'm going to, let me get to the Lakers to play with that guy.

I don't understand why people didn't see Jokic like that. I could play with that guy.
It's like the most fun guy in the league to play with. People felt that way about Duncan in the 2000s, right?

Once they started trading players, they wasn't trying to bring him up. They got the stink on them.

All right. This was a good catch-up, Chuck.
Hey, brother. I'm glad you're well.
It's always great to see you.

I'm rooting for you at this next stop. We'll see how it goes.

I'm going to bet on Barkley all the time. I got a lot of love and respect for us, brother.
Thanks for having me on.

All right. Great to see you.
Thanks, man. All right.
That's it for the podcast. Thanks to the one and only Charles Barkley.
Don't forget about new rewatchables, our 400th movie

that we've done. We did American Gangster.
And then

what else do I have? Oh, yeah. More podcasts coming this week.
At least one more, probably two, as we head toward week one of the NFL season. So stay tuned.
We're going to keep the content coming.

Don't forget about all the other ringer football stuff we have in the works as well. And I'll see you a little later in the week.

Let's be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming.

Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLBRE or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-88-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland.
Hope is here.

Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPENY or text HopeNY in New York.

This podcast is brought to you by Square. Okay, think of your favorite neighborhood restaurant, the one that feels like home.
Now, ask yourself, why that place?

If you run a restaurant, you already know. It's the vibe, the flow, the way everything just works.
That's where Square comes in.

Square keeps every corner of your restaurant moving, so you can focus on the reason you started it. See how Square can help your business.
Visit square.com/slash go/slash big.

Ah, the sounds of an Etsy holiday.

Now that's special. Want to hear it again? Get original and affordable gifts from small shops on Etsy.
For gifts that say, I get you, shop Etsy. Tap the banner to shop now.