The Luka Buzz, NFL Draft Scoops, and a Huge Celtics Sale With Todd McShay and Chris Mannix

Speaker 1 Welcome to the Bill Simmons podcast presented by FanDuel Sportsbook. So I went to the Lakers game last night.
It was my first Luka Doncic in-person experience.

Speaker 1 I got to see some of the number 77 jerseys. Did I look around and wonder, are there more 77s than 23s in the audience?

Speaker 1 I might have looked at a couple sections and wondered about it, but something cool really happened during the game. Luca came out.
He always tests these first quarters.

Speaker 1 And this is something he always did in Dallas, too. You kind of want to watch the first quarter of a Luca game because you never know what the ceiling is going to be.
Like

Speaker 1 at some point, he's going to score 75 points in a game. It's going to happen.
And he usually tests that first quarter to see how much he's feeling it. So he does it in this Lakers game.

Speaker 1 They're playing Denver. There's no Jokic.
There's no Murray because God forbid you go to an NBA game and see all the stars on both teams. There's no LeBron either.
Luca comes out.

Speaker 1 He scores 20 of the first 33 points.

Speaker 1 And you could feel a buzz building in the arena that is the sound you only get to hear when this is happening with Curry, when Curry's hitting threes.

Speaker 1 You go back in time, like when Kobe was feeling it some nights, when Michael Jordan was feeling it some nights. It's the rarest sound you get at a basketball game where everybody's like, holy shit.

Speaker 1 You start looking at the scoreboard. So with like four and a half minutes left, the Lakers had 33 points and he had 20.
And now everybody's like out of their minds. They just can't.

Speaker 1 Oh my, is he going to, could he score 100? Could he he get third in the first quarter? Of course, from that point on,

Speaker 1 he goes down. He's stunk in the second quarter.
He wasn't good in the third quarter either. They win easily because the Nuggets had nobody.

Speaker 1 But the buzz in the arena,

Speaker 1 and I've been going to Laker games. I moved here in November 2002.
The only other time I felt it at a Laker game like that was when Kobe was playing.

Speaker 1 And I remember the first time I moved to LA in mid-November and I went to a Laker game maybe two weeks later somebody brought me i'd never been to a laker game before you know grew up going to celtic games east coast my whole life just had always hated the lakers hated the showtime never really understood it and

Speaker 1 i go to this game and the thing that jumped out to me it was kobe and shaq it was you know it was right after they'd won the three peat they lose in that 03 season but it's kobe and shaq it's you know, typical really good home game.

Speaker 1 The thing that jumped out to me just sitting there was like, oh my God, these, these fans love Kobe. Like they love him.
And it was my big takeaway from the night.

Speaker 1 Like, and there's reasons for that, right? He's drafted by the team. He's a teenager.
They get to watch him go through the stages. Then they win titles with him.
Shaq shows up from Orlando.

Speaker 1 He'd been there, I don't know,

Speaker 1 four years in Orlando, comes to the Lakers. So he's a little bit of a hired gun, kind of like LeBron now.

Speaker 1 And they love both of them together, but they really love Kobe.

Speaker 1 And you could feel that during the rest of the run.

Speaker 1 Especially the 06 season. I remember going to a bunch of games that year.
It was after the trial. They weren't very good, but he just single-handedly scores 35 points a game.

Speaker 1 And just at some point after everything that happened with him in Colorado,

Speaker 1 it changed the tenor of the relationship of the fans with him in a way that people were like, this is our guy. We are sticking with him through thick and thin.
Shaq's gone.

Speaker 1 Our team's not going to be very good, but this is our guy. And you could really feel it that 06 season.

Speaker 1 And, you know, the only time I can remember with a basketball player was Bird with the Celtics, where it was just like 100% approval rating. Everybody's all in.
This is our guy.

Speaker 1 We believe he can do anything. And I felt like Kobe got to the point with the fans, really in the mid-2000s, you could feel it the most.

Speaker 1 And there was always buzz with him. And that year was the year, you know, that was the year that

Speaker 1 he had that huge Toronto game, the 81. But in general, he was a threat to do whatever whatever night after night after night.

Speaker 1 LeBron, as great as he is,

Speaker 1 was always like a totality of what he was doing. Like the, you know, if you love basketball, how do you not absolutely love what he's doing?

Speaker 1 But the ultimate LeBron game would be like 32 points, 15 assists, 12 rebounds. It's a little like Jokic.

Speaker 1 We're not going to tell our grandkids we were at a game where Jokic had 30, 20, and 15. It's amazing to watch.
There's something different when somebody might have the chance to really go off.

Speaker 1 It's the rarest thing in basketball.

Speaker 1 And there was that feeling in there for a couple of minutes. So it was that.
Plus, you know, there's performance with him where Los Angeles just makes sense as a team that he plays for.

Speaker 1 He's working the crowd. At one point in the first quarter, some guy in red, he got fouled.
And Luca has 20 at that point. He gets fouled.
The guy, this dumbass with the drinks, like, ball, don't lie.

Speaker 1 And Luca hears it and he turns around. He starts talking to the guy, talking shit to him.
And now he's just interacting with this whole section. He does things

Speaker 1 that I think are pretty rare from a basketball standpoint. He does hear the crowd.
He does interact with people. He does talk shit.
He talks shit to the refs.

Speaker 1 He talks shit to everybody he's playing against. Like he almost got into it at one point with Peyton Watson.
And you're watching. It's like, oh, watch out.
Luca's pissed now.

Speaker 1 He just feels like he belongs at LA. And that was my big takeaway.
I was thinking about like,

Speaker 1 if you're going to have the perfect Laker

Speaker 1 for central casting, you'd want somebody who's a little polarizing, which Luca is, right? Great player, hasn't won the title yet, little out of shape, doesn't really play defense.

Speaker 1 We'll have quarters where he just looks terrible, then a quarter where he's awesome. And there's like always the potential of something more.

Speaker 1 And he's still great. He's still one of the five best players in the league, but it's like, I wonder what else is there.
So you have that.

Speaker 1 you have the performance aspect, which Kobe was unbelievable at. And LeBron's great at too.
But Kobe,

Speaker 1 there was a demeanor to him at these games, especially as he really bought into it that was just awesome. You have the no ceiling in any game you go to with Luca, which I think is as rare as it gets.

Speaker 1 And it's the thing that I think made Curry so special the last 10 years. It's like, am I at the game right now where Curry's going to hit 15 threes?

Speaker 1 Am I at the game right now where Curry's going to get 70?

Speaker 1 You have, there's a one-on-one aspect with Luca that I think is important. There's nobody in the league remotely like him, like remotely.

Speaker 1 All the stuff he's doing, like he got in the first eight minutes of the game I went to last night.

Speaker 1 Granted, Denver's missing their two best guys, but he beats, he beats everybody off the dribble for eight minutes in a row. And he's doing the herky jerky stuff.
He's banging people.

Speaker 1 It's like, it felt like he could post up whoever he wanted. He could go buy whoever he wanted.
He could make 27 footers. Oh, and he's an awesome passer, too.
So So you have that.

Speaker 1 You have the Hollywood redemption comeback story because the Mavericks gave up on him.

Speaker 1 Like you could say they traded him. They got a lot back.
Well, obviously they didn't get a lot back, but they gave up on him. They didn't believe that they could win a title with him.

Speaker 1 They didn't want to pay him 330 million. LA loves that.

Speaker 1 You have the Lakers

Speaker 1 outwitted another team to get him, which is,

Speaker 1 I got to be honest, it feels like the Laker fans have their swagger back a little because, you know, you think like like really since the kobe nash howard year and then they just sucked forever and they drafted in the top four and the picks were like pretty hit or miss and they missed out on guys like tatum and then they end up with lebron basically because lebron just wanted to move to la

Speaker 1 and then they end up with davis because lebron made them trade everything for davis so now they end up with those two guys but for the most part i wouldn't call it the shrewdest team over the years then reeves is a great pick and then luca is the greatest trade in maybe in the history of the league at least since the bill Russell trade.

Speaker 1 So you have that. And then you have the night to night with Luca where you show up in the building and you don't know where you're going to get.

Speaker 1 And you can't put a price on that. It goes beyond the trade.
It goes beyond

Speaker 1 the fact that they fleeced Dallas, that they have somebody who's about to hit the primary career. Like this guy has a chance to be Kobe for these guys.
And that's the difference. LeBron came in 2018.

Speaker 1 He'd been in the league 15 years. He belonged to Cleveland.
So it's a business arrangement.

Speaker 1 It was year to year and it was great and it's worked out awesome and they have a chance to make the finals this year, but it was always a little bit of an arrangement.

Speaker 1 Kobe is different. And when you go to the Staples and you see the statues when you walk in, and we were talking about like last night we're walking in,

Speaker 1 like, is Luca getting a statue here someday? You know, the statues are really smart. You go and you see, you see Jerry West, you see Kobe, you see Magic, you see Shaq.

Speaker 1 And it's like, whose statue were they? Could LeBron get a statue? Maybe. Maybe if they make the finals this year, maybe he's going to get one anyway.

Speaker 1 But Luca, what's sitting at stake now for him is

Speaker 1 not only can he become the face of the league.

Speaker 1 Earlier in the year, we're talking about face-to-face, face to league. Like, this is it.
This guy has a chance now to be the face of the league. Could he win titles here? Could you get a statue?

Speaker 1 And could you be one of the big celebrities in LA where night after night after night, people are going to these games to see him, to see what happens with him. And you can feel the buzz already.

Speaker 1 There's more celebrities at all these games. The energy is different.
And I'm not saying it was bad before, but the energy reminded me of what it was like

Speaker 1 when I went to that Kobe game. It's the same thing.
And you kind of either have that or you don't. And he has it.
And it's one of the many reasons why that trade is fucking incredibly stupid.

Speaker 1 So I just wanted to mention that. Let's get to the rest of the podcast.
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And we are going to have Todd McShea talking about the NFL draft a little bit later.

Speaker 1 But first, Chris Manix talking Boston Celtic sale and some NBA stuff as well. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

Speaker 1 All right, we're bringing in the new owner of the Boston Celtics, Todd McShea. Congratulations.
Can't wait to see what you do with the team.

Speaker 2 Pretty good money they got for that, huh?

Speaker 1 Quite the investment. Yeah, big six with no arena.
So you have the McShay show for us. You have the McShea report, an excellent newsletter that is really becoming

Speaker 1 more and more exciting as we're within five weeks of the NFL draft. And I absolutely have some special interest because my favorite team is picking fourth.

Speaker 1 But I wanted to go through some of the stuff you have in here. I feel bad.

Speaker 1 Anytime I have you on, I feel like I'm stealing something from rasillo did do i have to work this out with him i don't know i just feel like i'm going to his fridge and grabbing like his grapefruit juice and taking like a big swig no you're like you're like team rascillo i always feel bad yeah but we're we're all on the team now right yeah that's great that's a good way to put it i'm gonna tell him that um

Speaker 1 It's starting to look like one-two for the QBs, which is what you laid out in Mock Draft 2.0. Cam Ward to Tennessee.
Sanders to the Browns.

Speaker 1 Can we go through all the breadcrumbs of this Cleveland Browns Sanders number two? Please, let's hear it.

Speaker 2 All right. So,

Speaker 2 I mean, you turned me on to the, what is it, Bazana? I had to look up who Bazana was.

Speaker 1 Do you like how I was at deep social media trying to find weird people talking about this?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I actually did. And I'm sitting here, right? And I'm watching tape.
And

Speaker 2 it was running back. So I'm like, I'm on the eighth or ninth running back, and I've got like 20 more guys to do.
And then we're texting about that. And I was like, like, you know what?

Speaker 2 I'm going to stop down for a minute. I thought I was going to take like 10 minutes and look through and see.

Speaker 2 Then I kind of got into my own little deep dive of, all right, so everyone wants to say Shador's got a second round grade for a lot of teams.

Speaker 2 I talked to two, two, we'll call them sources, two personnel people, right, at the Combine who were in that, in the 15-minute interviews with Shadur Sanders for teams that are drafting in the top 10 that need a quarterback.

Speaker 2 And I was surprised. The information that came out was, and I'll kind of paraphrase or summarize.

Speaker 2 It just, we got the vibe after meeting with all these other players, all the years of doing this.

Speaker 2 You can sense how important these meetings are for the individual player when they come in. For Shador, with us,

Speaker 2 we didn't get the sense that he cared an awful lot about what we thought of him.

Speaker 1 Right. It was almost like he was meeting with his accountant for 15 minutes or something.
He was trying to sell them.

Speaker 2 Right. Exactly.
And so I'm getting that information. And I look at him as a player who in certain systems,

Speaker 2 certain situations, he's got a chance to really succeed in the league, but he's not for everybody.

Speaker 2 He's not a big, strong-armed, mobile quarterback. He's none of those things, right?

Speaker 1 And so. Yeah, because the perception is because it's Dion's son.
You just, in your head, you're like, oh, he's got to be an amazing athlete. And he's actually a way more traditional quarterback.

Speaker 2 It's the biggest surprise you'll see. And he was talking about, I'm going to run faster than my dad.

Speaker 2 I'm like, I don't know if you're going to, if you were to run a 40, I don't know if you're going to break like 4.8.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So, so you've got all of that.
And so, and now the reports come out from different people in the league. Like, we don't even have a first round grade on them.

Speaker 2 And so I get it because, and the teams that are willing to talk are the teams that don't have interest. Right.

Speaker 2 So that's kind of the backdrop. And then you, you know, you, you sent me some of that stuff.
And I had heard that Cleveland's a place that he that he has interest in, but that's a short list.

Speaker 2 And there are some teams. And I think those teams that I talked to that he didn't have the,

Speaker 2 overwhelming interviews with are the ones that are on the list where Coach Proud has been telling us since what, October, November, that there's going to be some teams that my son's just not going to go play for.

Speaker 2 So you start to put all these things together. And I just took a minute and I went back and I looked at Kevin Stefanski's history.

Speaker 2 What has made him successful?

Speaker 2 What has he been successful with? Well, Case Keenum, he won 11 games with

Speaker 2 as a coach.

Speaker 2 Kirk Cousins, he won 10 games with. And a quarterback coach, offensive coordinator, like hands-on with those guys.

Speaker 2 And so it got me thinking:

Speaker 2 the skill sets are the same. Not big, not mobile, not elite arms, but process quickly.
That's his secret sauce.

Speaker 1 That's what

Speaker 1 would you put Flacco in there?

Speaker 2 Flacco, modern-day Flacco, still has a big arm, but not like... you know, the Baltimore Ravens in his prime, Flacco, and has never been overly mobile.

Speaker 2 So, so yeah, so he's winning games with these guys who are pocket passers, don't have these traits, but they all process quickly. They're accurate passers.
That's what Shador is.

Speaker 2 And so now I'm looking at it. I'm saying, Cleveland is in purgatory salary cap-wise because of the Deshaun Watson deal.
So if I'm Andrew Berry,

Speaker 2 and I don't have any information that's saying Cleveland is taking Shador, just to make that clear.

Speaker 2 But if I'm Andrew Berry and I'm saying, all right, the salary cap's horrible this year and it's not going to be any better next year.

Speaker 2 We maybe can get a Russell Wilson or make a trade for Kirk Cousins, but that's just temporary.

Speaker 2 That could help us win some games this year while we're developing a young quarterback, whether that's for later in his rookie year or for year two.

Speaker 2 But we got to get to year two because if we're drafting this high next year and talking about like Garrett Nussmeyer from LSU or Carson Beck or whoever the quarterbacks are going to be next year, we're probably not the decision makers here in Cleveland.

Speaker 1 I was going to say they have to get to year two, not the Browns. Correct.
People making the pick have to get to year two.

Speaker 2 Correct. So it makes sense that you bring in Kenny Pickett as a backup, and maybe he does better things than all of us expect if forced into duty.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 And, but, so, why are they still in the market for these veterans? Well, they're not going to cost anything. And so it's their only up.
They weren't in it for Stafford.

Speaker 2 They're not in it for Aaron Rodgers.

Speaker 2 But if they can bring in someone to help win games, whether it's the whole year or part of this rookie year for us, Shadur Sanders, that gives him a shot and then if you have shadour there's energy there's excitement about the future and stefanski's one of the handful of guys in the league that i believe could get the most out of shadour and actually win a lot of games with so we're checking a bunch of different boxes that make the nfl draft and the nba draft so much fun right yes there's desperation uh-huh You have decision makers like, I might not be here in a year.

Speaker 1 What's my big swing? Well, we have no salary cap space. I have the second pick in the draft.
Nobody's really going to probably trade up for this. And even if they do, I want to have a quarterback.

Speaker 1 We're going six and 11, seven and ten next year. So you have that.
You have the Miles Garrett piece who is going to leave, get a trade.

Speaker 1 Something happened. He gave that one interview where they asked him, are you comfortable with what's going to happen to quarterback? And he's like, oh, yes, I am.
I was like, oh, what is it?

Speaker 1 Why is he comfortable now? There's no free agent. It's not Russell Wilson's not making him comfortable.
I wouldn't flag that one.

Speaker 1 Then you have Sanders like playing FTSE on social media with the top Indians prospect, which I thought was notable.

Speaker 1 You have the dad, who if his son goes second in the NFL draft, it's more money, it's more prestige, all that stuff.

Speaker 2 Clearly, and his dad, and his dad, like we can say all the things you want about Coach Prime, and

Speaker 2 he's not for everybody. And the way he handles

Speaker 2 things are, it's kind of against the establishment. So there's obviously always going to be pushback, right?

Speaker 2 But he is dialed into the league, and he knows the guys that can help develop his son. And at the end of the day, as a father,

Speaker 2 all you want to do is put your children in a position where they have the, they can help them get the best of what they are, no matter what their career path is. And so I think he looks at it.

Speaker 2 And with the connections in the league and his understanding, and he looks at it and says, you know what? I'm in a good position. Yes, he makes more money if he goes picks one, two, or three.

Speaker 2 But also with that, and it's kind of unique, there are three guys that are running the organization as head coaches that actually can coach quarterbacks.

Speaker 2 And he's not going number one where Brian Callahan is, but Stefanski is an outstanding quarterback developer and can work with him.

Speaker 2 And Brian Dayball, while he's worked with bigger, you know, Josh Allens and Jalen Hurts at Alabama, he's worked with guys that have different traits. Brian Dayball can coach quarterbacks really well.

Speaker 2 So I think the combination of, yeah, he gets more money, but probably just as, if not more importantly,

Speaker 2 I trust where he's going to go and the people who are going to be working with him.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And as people listen to this, they're going to be like, well, of course Simmons wants him to go second because that's going to push out the two best guys.

Speaker 2 You should have seen my comments after I came out and I started talking about this. They're like, oh, yeah,

Speaker 1 Simmons got to you.

Speaker 2 Simmons got to you, right? And my answer is, yeah, he got me thinking. There's no question.

Speaker 2 He got me thinking with some of the social media stuff that I was oblivious to because I'm sitting here watching like R.J. Harvey, the running back from UCL.

Speaker 1 Well, to be fair, this started in Cleveland. Like, there's people that cover the team.
There's people who follow the team and they're just kind of reading the tea leaves.

Speaker 1 And it's for a lot of the reasons you mentioned. It's they really are the only chance for them to get a quarterback who might make it.

Speaker 1 And this is the most fun part of the stretch for the draft where you have 50-50 odds usually with a quarterback this high, right? This might be 40-60, but you start looking hard at the 40.

Speaker 1 You're like, well, Stefansky, well, we have a good foundation around him. Well, we have no chance to get a quarterback.
What if we can turn him into something?

Speaker 1 Like, you know, Rosillo has the theory he would just take a quarterback every year in the first round, I think, because it's like, that's just keep throwing the darts, and at some point, he'll hit the balloon.

Speaker 1 In this case, if you're them, you have no other way to get a quarterback, and you are absolutely murdered by

Speaker 1 the Deshaun thing. The Giants one,

Speaker 1 that's a little tougher one because they're not in the same salary at Cap Hel that the Browns are in.

Speaker 2 They're not, but no one wants to. But Matthew Stafford, at the end of the day, he was offered the same, and I've even heard reports, maybe like a little bit more to go to New York.

Speaker 2 But if you're looking at it and I say, I get two, three years left,

Speaker 2 I'm not certain that Joe Shane and more importantly, Brian Dable is going to be there for two or three years. What's the stability?

Speaker 1 About one year.

Speaker 1 They're in the same desperation thing, right?

Speaker 1 If they hit on Sanders, they can save the jobs.

Speaker 2 Yes. So that's why for the majority of people I talk to in the league, Bill, it is a later first, maybe early second round grade for Shador.

Speaker 2 But for the teams that are in these very unique situations, Cleveland at two and the Giants at three,

Speaker 2 they have circumstances that require them to make decisions that maybe they wouldn't make if they had. six years left on their contract.

Speaker 2 They'd done a lot of winning and they didn't, you know, they wanted a quarterback, but they didn't need to reinvigorate the fan base and more importantly, show promise towards the future.

Speaker 1 So this isn't Mitch Trubisky either, because this kid comes with real fame already. People have watched him in college.
They've watched him do good things. They like his dad.
He's got some.

Speaker 1 pizzazz whereas like trubisky it's like hey he's

Speaker 1 in 13 games and yeah he's like darko milichik basically hey on paper this guy's amazing and there's really no evidence at all.

Speaker 2 He faced no adversity, didn't have to come back for a second year where defensive coordinators had seen it the first time around. Like,

Speaker 2 Shador,

Speaker 2 here's the thing that I find interesting. First of all, when you watch the tape, he's tough as nails.
So forget all like the diamonds and the commercials and all that stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 2 This guy is an old school.

Speaker 2 throw back, pocket passing, stare down the gun barrel, take the hits and pop back up type of quarterback. Okay.
right

Speaker 2 and the other part is too it's interesting talking to to people in the league i to a t it's like yeah brian's getting all the media attention and people think that that's a headache he's not going to be a headache when when uh shador comes here in fact and i don't want to go into a lot of detail and it's speculation and when one person's

Speaker 2 thoughts on it versus another's, but Cam Ward's got a father, apparently, who's been very involved. And so there's talk in the league of like,

Speaker 2 and it's not going to affect where Cam goes. He's going to be the first pick in the draft.

Speaker 2 But like the interesting part to people in the league is like, we'd be a little bit more worried about the externals with Cam than we are with Shador and Coach Prime.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And he's also had a big spotlight on him for the last couple of years, right? Then abnormally large for QB.
There's one other piece.

Speaker 1 So you were talking about how he didn't do well in a couple of those interviews, right? Or

Speaker 1 the vibes were off. And it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, nothing was disrespectful.

Speaker 1 No, just like, hmm, doesn't seem like he's that interested in coming to our team.

Speaker 2 He knows something that maybe we just don't know.

Speaker 1 Right. So there's an NBA version of this.
They're in the COVID draft when

Speaker 1 Lamello ends up going second to Charlotte. And

Speaker 1 the story I always heard was they, and they have to do Zoom interviews. And it's like the most fucked up draft process ever.
And they do the Lamello thing. And he's just really off in it.

Speaker 1 And he's distant and just seems like he doesn't really give a shit shit about the Warriors. And it affected how they thought about, you know, whether they should take him or not.

Speaker 1 And then it turns out he probably knew he was going, you know, Charlotte. He probably wanted to go there.

Speaker 1 And you kind of perform what your expectations are for where you want to go. Right.
So if it's a team, and I can totally see it.

Speaker 1 If it's a team you don't really want to go to, you turn into Tom Cruise and risky business where you're like, hey, I don't really want to go to the University of Illinois. I want to go to Princeton.

Speaker 1 So if he has an inkling that he could go second, he knows in Cleveland, like obviously LeBron was there, like you can become a big star in Cleveland. But I can see it.

Speaker 1 It's a good situation because their team wasn't bad last year. Like it's not, they're not that far away from being a little more impactful, maybe if they had a decent QB.

Speaker 2 No, and they, and they need a running back. And this is, this just so happens to be the best running back class maybe in the history of the draft and certainly since 2017.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, you know,

Speaker 2 they're not that far away. They're really not.
And And I go through it. If I'm Shador and I've got assurances that it could be Cleveland, but if it's not, it's very likely going to be the Giants.

Speaker 2 I think that that probably led to what you were just talking about, too.

Speaker 1 And there's no trade-up team, we don't think, because the Raiders got Geno. I don't think that the Jets just went in on fields.
I don't see them trading up anyway. And then the Seattle.

Speaker 2 I do hear that the Jets, the Jets could pull, could throw us a curveball the first night. Don't be, let's just get it out here now.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I think there's a little bit of love for Jackson Dart in that building.

Speaker 1 Oh, it seems like he's the

Speaker 1 bonex of this draft. Absolutely.
Bo nix ends up going what, 12? He went 12. It seemed inconceivable.
He was second round, second round, second round. Oh, maybe late first round.

Speaker 1 Then all of a sudden he's 12.

Speaker 2 And if it wasn't Denver, it was probably going to be second round. Yeah.
And that place, it just Sean Payton fell in love with him, perfect fit. And that's how it worked out.

Speaker 2 And listen, Jackson Dart doesn't go seven which again i'm maybe let's put a 25 30 chance at at most at this point um new orleans is a possibility at nine but then after another team that's in salary capell and just completely screwed and have to get a quarterback somehow right and then everyone's like well they brought derek carp back yeah one more year but this would actually be a perfect time to get a rookie quarterback as we work through all the salary stuff, not force him out there for year one.

Speaker 2 So I think Jackson Dart could be a top 10 pick, but if he's not, then it's like, you know, we talk about 21 to Pittsburgh or a team. That's the other thing.

Speaker 2 Either the Browns or the Giants are very likely to take Shador.

Speaker 2 Whichever team doesn't, the Browns are picking at 33, which is the first pick of the second round. The Giants are picking one spot after that.

Speaker 2 I think you'll see one of those teams, whichever one doesn't get a quarterback, wind up moving into the first round. Maybe it's to pick 19 to Tampa or 20 to Denver to try to secure Jackson Dart.

Speaker 2 Um, and also to get that fifth year in the NFL, there's a fifth year option for the first round player. So, you want to get that for that extra year of security as an organization.

Speaker 1 Well, in the McShea report, a very excellent newsletter that everybody should subscribe to, it pops right into your, it's like I woke up this morning, seven o'clock, looking at tax, Celtics, all of a sudden it got sold.

Speaker 1 Then your newsletter came. I'm like, what a great morning.
I haven't even had coffee yet.

Speaker 1 You have the Giants trading up to 19 for Dart. You're a fake trade.
34 and 65 and a 26 third rounder to the Bucks for pick number 19. So in that scenario, the two quarterbacks go one, two.

Speaker 1 They take Hunter third. And I want to talk about that in a second.
And then move up and take Dart. And now they're like, we've got Dart.
We've got neighbors. Yeah.
Yo, Travis Hunter. Who knows?

Speaker 1 Maybe he'll play both sides of the ball. And all of a sudden, now there's energy with the Giants.

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 let's bring it back to the top four right it's a puzzle yeah

Speaker 2 and we know one we've got one of the four pieces of the puzzle with those four picks i i feel very strongly like we've got it planted in there right so now figuring out the other three it's almost like the the rest of the draft starts at pick five yeah like mason graham and tyler warren and the running backs and all this but the first four picks it's like how does this work right well and let me stop you one second there yeah i refuse to read another mock draft that doesn't have those four going in some order.

Speaker 1 I still see drafts from like good places where they're like, number four, Patriots, Will Campbell, and then Jacksonville takes Abdul Carter at five. And I'm like, I promise you, that's not happening.

Speaker 1 No, no. If Abdul Carter isn't four, they're taking Abdul Carter.

Speaker 2 And I put it in there because I wound up with Abdul Carter in the newsletter in the mock draft 2.0. I put Abdul Carter in there, but I'm very, very clear to my friends here in New England, like,

Speaker 2 don't get overly excited because

Speaker 2 a lot has to happen.

Speaker 1 So don't buy the jersey yet. Tell my naughty Jay.

Speaker 1 Don't buy it yet. Wait till like end of April.

Speaker 2 But if Shadur goes two or three,

Speaker 2 you can buy two jerseys and get rid of one of them because it's going to be Hunter or Carter, period.

Speaker 1 But Hunter makes a whiff more sense for the Giants, but I thought you laid it out correctly. It makes a little more sense, but if they took Carter,

Speaker 1 it's not like that's stupid. They would just have an amazing defensive line.

Speaker 2 I think they've prepared like most good organizations do. And I'm not saying the Giants have been,

Speaker 2 but organizations are in free agency, are trying to free themselves up to take the best player in the draft. The Giants obviously have Kaybon Thibodeau and Brian Burns at edge.

Speaker 2 So you look at it and you say it's not a huge needle. Who cares? Like when you get a player like that at the second most important position, you take him.
And so if it...

Speaker 2 if it goes where Shador is number two, they have their choice. And so that's a good position to be in.
But what if Abdul goes, what if Abdul goes one or two? Or what Abdul goes two, right?

Speaker 2 And they're sitting there three and Hunter's the only guy.

Speaker 2 Or if Hunter goes two and then Abdul's sitting there, they've got to make sure that they're covered. They sign, re-signed Darius Slayton at wide receiver.
They pauls in Adebo at cornerback.

Speaker 2 So they're covered, but they're talking about excellence versus just solid players. And so.

Speaker 1 Well, you put him and neighbors together just from an athlete standpoint.

Speaker 2 Yes. And now you have

Speaker 2 the opportunity to go get a Jackson Dart with that, as you had mentioned. So there's a lot of ways this can play out.

Speaker 2 But for New England, the only thing you really truly have to pray for is that Shadur goes number two or three, because then you get either the best or the second best.

Speaker 2 player in this entire draft falling to you at four. And that doesn't happen very often.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Otherwise, you're looking at a trade back.

Speaker 1 And in a trade back, I don't know who's trading up and what you're getting. I mean, I told you my dream trade would be the Jets move up to four,

Speaker 1 Pats get Garrett Wilson, Pats give up their second-round pick. So it's basically seven and 39 for, you know, four, like whatever.
The Pats end up with seven and Garrett Wilson in the deal.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, I'd sign up for that. Why would the Jets do that? I have no idea.

Speaker 2 But that's my dream trade.

Speaker 2 That's where you lose me. I mean,

Speaker 2 you had me on the show. No.
I had to. Yeah.

Speaker 1 i had but i yeah i can't listen i can't apologize for my dreams no not at all but the thing with the pats is yeah i i'm not i'm not a big draft for need guy when you're not one guy away from winning the super bowl this pats thing is gonna be like a three-year

Speaker 1 you know

Speaker 1 completely like they don't need to be like we need a left tackle because that way we'll go eight and nine next year like they just need they need awesome players and it really doesn't matter what position they are well the problem is though if you're in new england if shadour doesn't go, right?

Speaker 2 Let's say, let's say Cleveland and the Giants pass, and it goes

Speaker 2 Abdul Carter two, Hunter three, or vice versa, then it's then now you're, you're in, remember I said,

Speaker 1 you're in membo range.

Speaker 2 Yes, and membo's a right tackle.

Speaker 1 It's taking him three, four spots too high. Members are right tackle.
You kind of have to do it. Right.

Speaker 2 Membo's a right tackle in college. And can he kick to the left side? Are they comfortable with that?

Speaker 2 And Will Campbell's a pure left tackle, but he's got 32 and a half inch arm length. And that's concerning when you're using a top 10 pick.
You just want it to be clean.

Speaker 2 And so, and then you got Jalen Walker from Georgia, who would do great things.

Speaker 1 Edge rusher, right?

Speaker 2 Edge rusher who would do great things in Mike Vrabel's defense. But again, you're talking about elite.

Speaker 2 And no matter what the draft, Travis Hunter, Abdul Carter are elite. They're in that top tier.
To then like, it could be one of like six or seven guys with very similar grades.

Speaker 2 And now we're, now we are focusing more on the need.

Speaker 1 No, it's, it's Lombardi's old thing about blue chippers we call them red chippers and then yes the guys below that but you the teams that usually are around the super bowl sniffing around

Speaker 1 you look and they have five six seven eight blue chippers yeah pats the pats only have gonzalez and drake may right now plus the nose tackle they got from the eagles what's your blood pressure going to be like when cleveland and and the giants come up to you know to make their like during that 20 years well don't you think we'll know we'll know we'll know with cleveland and sanders right like that that's not going to leak out yeah probably a lot of people with interest in that yes don't you think probably probably but still like until you hear the name

Speaker 1 because the only thing that worries me is are the browns i and i would do this if i ran a team like do you pretend you're drafting sanders because you want to see if the giants are going to flip out and maybe offer you something to flip picks with you and you wanted abdul carter all on yeah of course you do i always feel like

Speaker 1 I'm just going to represent that. I'm going to potentially,

Speaker 2 unless you're a team behind trying to get the Giants would know if you're willing to give up that pick,

Speaker 2 you're not taking them.

Speaker 1 But they could say,

Speaker 1 if you don't swap picks with us, we have somebody that's coming in hard.

Speaker 2 That's the

Speaker 1 background.

Speaker 2 The Jets are a surprise team, the Saints, whoever. Yes.
Yes. And then

Speaker 1 you have the Giants are now trying to use all their intel, like find out from our guy and the Jets how real this is. And that's what makes the draft so much fun.

Speaker 1 You're basically all playing poker with each other, but it's some of the worst poker players who ever lived.

Speaker 1 Yes. So the biggest questions are Carter versus the other than QBs, Carter versus Hunter, just who has more value.

Speaker 1 And that really seems like whoever just needs whatever they do more, but they're pretty equal. You have Carter above Hunter, but not Bayad.
No,

Speaker 1 right?

Speaker 2 They're basically identical.

Speaker 2 The tricky part for Hunter is

Speaker 2 what's the plan, right?

Speaker 2 And for a team like New England, I've got to believe it's,

Speaker 2 you don't have Drake May and say, yeah, we just drafted this guy for overall generational talent. He's going to be a nickel corner as a rookie and eventually our starting corner.

Speaker 2 You might get 20 plays with him on offense. It's just not going to happen.

Speaker 2 So everyone is talking about the moonlighting where you'd like to play him at corner because that's the harder position in terms of developing and the technique and being part part of part of 11 there.

Speaker 2 Whereas wide receivers, a little bit more ISO,

Speaker 2 it's kind of like an NBA thing, you know? Yeah. A lot of one-on-one stuff.

Speaker 2 For New England, I can't imagine that would be the case. I think it would be: you're a full-time receiver.
We've got our biggest asset in this entire organization is Drake May.

Speaker 2 And so we've got to assist that.

Speaker 1 And this is also our best chance to get a number one receiver because we struck out. trying to get all these different guys.

Speaker 1 Now you're looking at Stephon Diggs and Brandon Ayuk, and people are coming off major injuries. It gets a little,

Speaker 1 and it's a receiver draft that sucks.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So it depends on the team, but I'll say this.

Speaker 2 I think Travis Hunter is more advanced as a wide receiver right now. I think Travis Hunter can be Garrett Wilson with

Speaker 2 maybe like a touch more juice after the catch.

Speaker 2 So I would have no problem with him being a 50 snap a game offensive player and 25, you know, third downs, red zone, that kind of stuff on defense. If you can manage all that.

Speaker 1 It sounds like such a fun wrinkle for whoever gets him, where if you play him at receiver, but he's also like your dime back, and it's just like he's in now. Oh my God, he picked one off.
Like, just

Speaker 2 Dion,

Speaker 2 remember when Dion would come on the field to return a punch or kick?

Speaker 1 Do you remember like or when he would line up at receiver? It was like so exciting. It's like, oh, my God, are they going to throw it to him? Right.
So that would be cool.

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Speaker 1 it's a new way to experience driving learn more at audiusa.com always pay careful attention to the road do not drive while distracted um then the draft really starts at five.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And you had Mason Graham going to the Jags in mock draft 2.0.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. The running backs are fascinating to me too, though.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 So I was going to say that the Boys of State kit at six to the Raiders, but then you also love Hampton, and we could have two running backs in the top 12, even though one of the only things we've learned about the draft is don't take running backs that high.

Speaker 1 Right. It's a disposable position.
Like I was looking at the 2016 draft in the NFL. Don't ask why.

Speaker 1 And, like, everybody in that draft seems so old now. Like, Zeke Elliott's in it.
2016 draft is like not that long ago. Like, Jalen Brown was in the 2016 draft, and he's crazy.

Speaker 1 He's just hitting the prime of his career. And Zeke Elliott seems like he's 48.

Speaker 1 So you think about that with running backs, and it's like, all right, so I'm going to draft somebody that I have for six years. I get Mason Graham.

Speaker 1 He might play till he's 36.

Speaker 1 He might have two giant contracts.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like Cam Hayward's, what, 36 now?

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.
So if you're taking a running back that guy that high, you better think it's like, this is Saquon Barkley, B.J.

Speaker 2 Robinson.

Speaker 2 For each of those teams, you look at the Raiders and

Speaker 2 some of their other positions, like wide receiver, there's no receiver to draft that high.

Speaker 2 Some of the other positioned cornerback, like Jade Baron from Texas, but it's not like we're not talking about. you know, one of those like elite, elite corners.

Speaker 2 You look at what Pete Carroll has had, and he's not necessarily, you know, going to be the, it depends on what his role winds up being, but Tom Brady is going to play a big part in all this too.

Speaker 2 But from a

Speaker 2 from the standpoint of how they want to build it, you want to have a great defense. They want to recapture some of the Legion of Doom stuff.

Speaker 2 They want to have a, you know, a running back like a Marshawn Lynch who

Speaker 2 a big banger, protect the ball, let the defense take care of a lot of the business on the field. And that's what Jinti is in terms of an every down back.

Speaker 2 He like the missed tackles forced and like he's just, he's a special back.

Speaker 2 So that it makes sense for that organization and for that pick where they are, because it's not like they're passing on this elite pass rusher or corner or wide receiver that they, that they shouldn't for a running back.

Speaker 2 And then for Chicago,

Speaker 2 they handle their business so well in free agency.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 three offensive linemen that like they're protecting their quarterback. They they could go tackle with that spot if Will Campbell's still there.
But I also

Speaker 2 have concerns enough with drafting a 32 and a half inch arm tackle in the top 10.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 if we bring in a running back to go with DeAndre Swift, how much more are we protecting our quarterback by having two backs? And so if one goes down, we still have a top shelf back.

Speaker 2 If both are in there, they're keeping each other fresh. We can run the football.
We can take some pressure. I don't know.

Speaker 2 And we saw what Ben Johnson did with Jameer Gibbs and how quickly that offense went from

Speaker 2 90 to 100. But the one player, really.

Speaker 1 So Will Campbell, if Will Campbell had 34-inch arms, he'd be the fourth pick in the draft.

Speaker 2 Could be. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Isn't that crazy?

Speaker 2 There's only three starting tackles in the league at the end of the year with sub-33-inch arms.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 you're playing, it's kind of

Speaker 2 Parcells used to say, we don't want a roster full of exceptions, you know?

Speaker 2 So that part's concerning.

Speaker 1 If you're a GM, would you ever take a running back in the top 12?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 I don't think I would either. Especially not this year when I'm looking at guys like Quinchon Judkins from Ohio State and Cam Scataboo.

Speaker 2 His tape I liked even more than I thought after watching the awesome things he did this season.

Speaker 1 That's my dream scenario for the third round for the Pats. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know that he's going to get there.

Speaker 2 He might not. But even if not, you got R.J.
Harvey from UCF. You've got DJ Giddens from Kingston.

Speaker 1 But you know this, though, when there's too many,

Speaker 1 guys start dropping because nobody ends up taking, like, even think about last year with the wide receivers. That got so stupid.

Speaker 1 And the Pats ended up with the 10th guy in the first 35 picks who was a receiver. Right.
You know, I think there's a, they know Jensen Cooper goes to the Eagles at 39.

Speaker 1 He's the third best defensive back on the board. I don't know.
I just feel like when there's a glut, it really fucks things up.

Speaker 2 And so, yeah, and sometimes, though, when you look at it and say, well, I can get those guys later, sometimes it's like, hold,

Speaker 2 hold, you know, and then all of a sudden one goes and there will be this run.

Speaker 2 But I think everyone's going to kind of wait to see where the dominoes start to fall before they jump in because no one wants to draft a, no one wants to draft a running back over some of these other premium positions, even if you're talking about pick 40.

Speaker 2 They'd rather wait.

Speaker 1 But I would say

Speaker 1 the Gibbs and the success Detroit had with him as a weapon would make people think like, ah, maybe in the 12 to 15 range.

Speaker 1 I always look with the draft, you know, and I'm already starting to think about NFL over-unders and the win totals. And

Speaker 1 can somebody get, like when the Eagles got Jalen Carter that year, it's like, oh, that's getting that guy at nine. Jesus, like that, that might affect.

Speaker 1 And when you look at the teams that are picking the first 15. Yep.

Speaker 1 The one that jumped out to me was the team you mentioned, the Bears. And I have no idea if they're going to be good.
And they're in a brutal division.

Speaker 1 And who knows with Caleb, but they spent a lot of money. They have the QB on the rookie scale.

Speaker 1 And then if they just crushed the 10th pick somehow and got somebody awesome, then you just have to start thinking like, ah, look at this. Like that Tyler Warren, the tight end.

Speaker 1 I don't know where he's going to go. He could go five.
He could go 12. But like

Speaker 1 if they got him at 10, that's somebody that could play right away and be you know, potentially like an impact dude right away. So that was the team I was looking at.

Speaker 1 And then the, the only other one was

Speaker 1 Atlanta, just because I think Atlanta with Pennix and they have some talent. The division sucks.
Like if they are able to nail that pick, that could be a good one too.

Speaker 2 Going back to the Bears, it's kind of what I said earlier, like the good teams, they plug all the holes so that they can pick the best player available. They do have a luxury pick.

Speaker 2 And you would say, well, how can the Bears have a luxury pick? Well, that would be to a certain degree a luxury pick, but it fits what they want to do.

Speaker 2 But the other part of it is

Speaker 2 maybe you say a 10 and you draft an offensive tackle, or maybe you draft an edge rusher, like a Mike Kell Williams from Georgia.

Speaker 2 Because they are picking it, I've got it right here,

Speaker 2 39 and 41 in the second round.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so if I

Speaker 2 love Omarion Hampton from UNC at running back, but what if I just take a stab at one of these pass rushers and look at what like the Eagles.

Speaker 1 What if I load up on my D? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Load up on my D, go get Cam Scatabu, go get Quinn Shawn Judkins, one of those guys at 39. I can still draft an offensive lineman or defensive player with that 41st pick.

Speaker 2 So there's different ways to look at all of this. And that's why I think it's going to be fascinating.

Speaker 2 We're going to see at least two running backs in the first round. I think three.
I don't know that we're going to see two in the top 10, but we can't.

Speaker 1 I can't believe that. Well, that's what with T-Mac.
I wonder, like,

Speaker 1 this is the reverse of a glut when there's nobody at a position. He's the only probably

Speaker 1 first round graded wide receiver. He's one of the only two that you could even see going in there.

Speaker 1 And somebody just needs a receiver, and you get people in our office like, ah, fuck it, we need a receiver.

Speaker 1 And all of a sudden, he's going 11th, you know, because we see that version of the draft too. I just wow, you're taking him here.

Speaker 2 I think everyone wants to be so quick to look at the highlights and the spectacular plays, and they are spectacular. And then they want to look at his size,

Speaker 2 and then they want to look at the report from Schultz, was it that where he ran a 448? I talked to some scouts, they had closer to 445, somewhere in that range,

Speaker 2 regardless.

Speaker 2 I don't see the dog in him, and I don't see the refinement. And Drake London wasn't overly refined.
He needed a year before he could be a thousand-plus yard receiver, but that's the comp, right? Tall,

Speaker 2 just acrobatic type of guy. But they're,

Speaker 2 yes, the shades of, but

Speaker 2 they're not the same player. So

Speaker 1 it's not better if there's not, if there's not a lot of competition in a draft and then they start to look like the hottest girl at the bar.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. And he will go.
I mean, he could go as high as Dallas at 12, let's say. But I had him going later in the first round.
I had him going to

Speaker 2 the Ravens, kind of at that point, best player available. They could use another receiver.

Speaker 2 Probably go somewhere in between that range when it's all said and done.

Speaker 2 I'm betting on Matthew Golden from Texas. If you need a receiver, that's why I get a lot of money.
So you have two.

Speaker 2 I've got two. And then Ameka Abuka could be the third that sneaks in from Ohio State.
We'll see how he runs it as pro day, but he would be the third that I think has a good chance to go.

Speaker 1 All right. Two more questions.
Let me give you another name real quick.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 If you're not getting the receiver that first pick at 38 for New England, Jaden Higgins from Iowa State.

Speaker 1 Do a little work on him.

Speaker 1 I've watched some YouTube on him.

Speaker 2 They're looking for.

Speaker 1 I feel a little burned after Polk last year in the 30s with the receiver.

Speaker 1 I'm hurt. My credit's up.

Speaker 2 I know, but I'm just saying he's a name that fits what they're looking for.

Speaker 1 Second to last question: Who is the holy shit? This guy's going here, top 15 guy. If you had to guess, the guy who just goes 10, 11 spots higher than you ever could imagine.

Speaker 1 Last year would have been Bo Nix. Like, if we were talking about that draft five weeks for the draft, they're like, and you said Bo Nix is going to go 12.
I would have been like, what? That's insane.

Speaker 1 He's not going 12. Who is the, that's insane guy?

Speaker 2 I think Jackson Dart could be. I'm just looking at it right now.

Speaker 1 Is there a weird left tackle, like maybe on paper guy that we're not

Speaker 1 that could be elite? Like Membo already.

Speaker 2 I'll give you a guy. Everyone coming out of the combine, Nikki Minwari, right, from South Carolina, really good player.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't think an elite player yet. I think he's still getting there.
I think used in the right scheme. I'd love to see him

Speaker 2 with,

Speaker 2 I would say,

Speaker 2 trying to think of Seattle would be a perfect spot, right? McDonald, the way he, he, what he did, Baltimore, Hamilton, I could see that being a really good marriage.

Speaker 2 But E-man Warrior was, was like almost 6'4, 220 pounds. His combination of like size, 40 time, which is a 4'4 flat and vertical broad jump, it had never been done in the history of the combo.

Speaker 2 Like he's that special of an athlete. It was awesome to watch.

Speaker 2 I still think the other safety who ran after him and ran a pedestrian time and didn't jump like him. And I think Malachi Starks from Georgia could wind up being a top 15 pick ahead of Eamon Warrior.

Speaker 2 And I think that would surprise people right now.

Speaker 1 Last question. Rosillo stretches for a half hour,

Speaker 1 goes out to Manhattan and tries to run the 40,

Speaker 1 but he's stretched. He's limber and he's ready.
And we have scouts there and a stopwatch. What is Rasillo running right now in the 40?

Speaker 2 We haven't talked about this publicly, but there's no better place to do it. I texted Rosillo the other day with the old, the old line of

Speaker 2 the town, the movie.

Speaker 2 I can't tell you what we're going to do. You can't, you can't, you know, you can't.

Speaker 1 Whose car are we taking?

Speaker 2 And I said, I, I, my, your answer needs to be whose, whose car are we going to take?

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 And that was in regards to, I wanted, I, I want to take over his house for the third day of the draft and do a live stream from there.

Speaker 1 And we're going to, so we're going to do that. Sounds great.

Speaker 2 So this, so we're announcing that right right now without permission. But I figure

Speaker 2 who's going to yell at me? You, right? Um, but I

Speaker 2 would love to do to do that as part of the day three of the draft to get Rasul to run. I'm going to guess

Speaker 1 because he's, I mean, he's really

Speaker 1 got a lot of muscle right now, which I think would hurt for the speed, but it also may help. Maybe he's in great shape.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 493.

Speaker 1 493.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 So you're under five.

Speaker 2 he's a friend

Speaker 1 that's fair that was really really nice of you yeah i thought so so publicly you'll go 493 i i would be more interested in like the three cone or the short shuttle the lateral agility with all that weightlifting i just can't see that that ending well what what weightlifting out of all those things they do in that what would he crush the bench press yeah the bench so huge bench press that's what the teams are talking about after like jesus rasillo benched 580 but i don't see him as a fullback so I'm trying to figure out where we're going to roll him.

Speaker 1 Oh, you see him like a, like a, what was that guy in the Niners? Ushek? Yeah, yeah. Ushek.
Yeah. Like a guy Belichick would have taken in 2007, just like I just want him for special.

Speaker 2 Special teamer effort.

Speaker 1 I like his attitude.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Kind of like that celebrity basketball game he played.
And I'll never forget that.

Speaker 1 Oh, he's still mad about it. We'll talk about it all the time.
All right, Mick Shea, subscribe to his newsletter. It's great.
Listen to the McShay show. Also great.

Speaker 1 You can find that on YouTube as well. Great to see you as always.

Speaker 2 All right, YouTube boys.

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What's the podcast called? Open Floor Still?

Speaker 2 Open Floor, yeah.

Speaker 1 Open Floor. Was that, where was that on the title list as you were coming up with title names?

Speaker 1 Is it the top one? We're like two taken.

Speaker 1 Titles are so hard now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think this was back like, I started that podcast before I left for Yahoo. So like, it was back when let's just call it basketball or something like that.

Speaker 1 And they're like, no, got to keep going. Speaking of basketball,

Speaker 1 an eight-episode HBO drama could be written about the Celtics sale where we found out today $6.1 million

Speaker 1 to somebody that 12 hours ago, nobody knew who he was. I mean, probably some rich people knew who he was.
People knew he was the final bidder. But now, Bill Chisholm is going to be.

Speaker 1 the next owner of the Boston Celtics. He paid a record price.
It was not an accident where Washington, the Commanders, went for 6.05,

Speaker 1 Celtics go for 6.1.

Speaker 1 I have a million thoughts, but what was your immediate reaction to the price?

Speaker 2 Astonished.

Speaker 2 I didn't believe they would get over 6.

Speaker 2 Look, that's a record, that's a huge number, regardless. But the fact that you're just selling the team and you're not selling an arena,

Speaker 2 that is a huge variable in all this. Like when Matt Ishbia bought Phoenix for a $4 billion valuation, he was getting the arena with it.
He was getting, for whatever it's worth, a WNBA team with it.

Speaker 2 You're just getting the Boston Celtics here. And yeah, it's an iconic franchise,

Speaker 2 but it's a franchise that

Speaker 2 costs a lot of money, is set to have the highest payroll ever. you know, next year,

Speaker 2 you're taking on something with a lot of bills. So I guess my first reaction was bravo to H.

Speaker 2 Irving Grausbeck and the lawyers that he hired to sell this team, because I really believe that he got this. He got the absolute maximum value that is possible to extract from the South at this point.

Speaker 2 So I give him, that was my first reaction. Like, wow.
They got a price that I didn't believe they were going to get.

Speaker 1 My first reaction, because I love being right, was I was saying last summer that this was going to get to six, and that's what the NBA wanted. And guess what? It got to six.

Speaker 1 I think that was a huge thing for the NBA with the expansion coming. Six has to be the number.
That's what we want.

Speaker 1 I think it was a big thing for the family, especially Irv, the 90-year-old legend, who was not going to have any sort of inside job.

Speaker 1 There's a whole Steve Pagliuca, who's the number two owner of the Celtics right now, that everybody assumed he was going to get it. And I can't wait to dive into that piece with you.

Speaker 1 It was made clear from the beginning. There's no inside job.
This will go to the highest bidder. The most money wins this.
And nobody really believed it, but that's how it played out.

Speaker 1 And it got to 6-1. And my guess is that the Pag Duka group and maybe even one or two of the other ones got to the six.

Speaker 1 The point one is so fascinating to me.

Speaker 1 The point one.

Speaker 1 Sometimes this is how it goes. This is how Larry Ellison lost the Warriors, where it's like, no, he had it.
He had it. He had it.

Speaker 1 Then the other side, I think, went to, I forget what it was, like 400, 360, whatever it was. And he's like, nope, that's my final offer.
And he didn't get it.

Speaker 1 And over and over again, the guys that get these teams are the ones that are like, oh, you want to break the Washington record? All right. All right.
Point one, done.

Speaker 1 And that was it. That's how he got it.
So the Steve Pack Luga piece is incredible that he didn't get it and that he came really close. And he did a long post today that was posted on social media.

Speaker 1 That was, I think, one of the strangest posts I've ever read from somebody who didn't own a team.

Speaker 1 I couldn't believe he did that.

Speaker 2 Did I just, that

Speaker 2 I would call that corporate scorched earth, right? Like it's not scorched earth like Dan Gilbert on LeBron, but it's corporate scorched earth.

Speaker 2 Where I thought the most telling part of that, was it five paragraph statement?

Speaker 2 that he released was at the very end of, I think it was the first paragraph, where he noted that he had put together a group of investors that were eager to continue to reinvest in the team.

Speaker 2 I think the last sentence was: luxury tax, be damned. Like what Steve Pagliuka is doing there is he is planting the seed to be like on the other side of future Celtic fan outrage.

Speaker 2 Because we all know there are some tough decisions that this ownership group is going to have to make in the next couple of years. Like Sam Hauser makes $10 million right now.

Speaker 1 In in real dollars, though.

Speaker 2 That's like 80 million he's making. He's costing this team.
There are decisions that they're going to have to make.

Speaker 2 What Steve Bagliuka, in my mind, did with that statement was just put himself in a position where if this team does cut some corners over the next couple of years, lop off some salaries, he can sit there and be like, you know what?

Speaker 2 I would have done that. I put together a group of guys that weren't going to do that.
Like he set himself up. We can get into the dynamics there of

Speaker 1 answering.

Speaker 1 This is the number one thing i want to talk about go ahead well it's just so you have these two guys wick's dad puts up the most money for the team wick's the one that's organizing the group and it starts out i think with four people that put up the money they they get the price and then their job after they get the price is to then go buy find a group of minority people to then take off offload some of the money they just committed to which by the way That's what Chisholm's doing right now.

Speaker 1 He's trying to, he is now, he's already put the feelers out. He's trying to put together a little syndicate to offload some of the money that he's already promised.
So that's in motion now.

Speaker 1 So they get the four, but Pags was always, it was like Wick, and he's the owner. And the dad put up the most money, but also here's Pags.

Speaker 1 And they've had this uneasy co-owner alliance, but Wick was always the face of it. And it was always a little awkward.
And you could feel it when they were like a trophy.

Speaker 1 You know, that's when the Lazarine Edens had that too. Some of these co-owner, like Goober and Lacub, same thing where it's like, it's my team, but you have to be here.

Speaker 1 And you hold, let's hold the trophy together. And it's always super awkward.

Speaker 1 And I don't know how great it was going by the end because I think when Pag Luca tried to buy the Nets,

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 I don't think Wick found out from Pag Luca is my understanding. And I don't think it's been great since then.

Speaker 1 And I think. The reverse of that was Pag Luca found out that the Celtics were being sold the same way we all did.

Speaker 1 It was, it was, he was not tipped. He was not giving a heads up.
So I don't think that relationship has been great for the last year.

Speaker 1 And this specifically, the way he reacted to the sale tells me that this is, this is going to get ugly. And I have some reasons for why this got bad near the end, but what else have you heard on this?

Speaker 2 I've seen it unfold over the last 20 years. And

Speaker 2 you can unequivocally say it was a lot stronger at the beginning than it was at the end.

Speaker 2 And some of that has everything to do with what you said there. Like Pag Liuka is in this kind of with his own cash to what, I don't know what the final percentage is that he owned of this group.

Speaker 2 I heard heard around eight or nine percent, something in that ballpark. Um, and he's looking at Wick Grauseback, who owns a lesser percent of the team, but is a factor, is effectively H.

Speaker 2 Irving in all of this. Like, he is

Speaker 2 the money guy. He gets to be the face of it.
And you're right.

Speaker 2 There have been some moments over the last six, seven years as this team has ascended into conference finals, NBA finals, ultimately championships, where

Speaker 2 they're not exactly pulling the trophy kind of away from each other, but you can see some of that tension between those two guys. And look,

Speaker 2 I don't know about you, but I had been hearing for months now that

Speaker 2 through Pagliukitz kind of telegraphing this to people in the NBA, that he believed he was going to get it. Like it eventually was going to play out, that he was going to get control of this team.

Speaker 2 It might take

Speaker 2 a little bit longer than people expected, but he was ultimately going to grab control of this team.

Speaker 2 And you can just tell from that statement that he's furious, that he is completely bullshit right now, that he is not going to be the majority owner of the Celtics.

Speaker 1 Well, so I think he, from what I had heard, that he had the money to get to five, which is where they were hoping it was going to be in the fives, because that's a realistic price for a franchise that doesn't have an arena.

Speaker 1 The gross back side wanted more. They wanted more.
They're pushing the number up. And I think one of the ways this really went sideways,

Speaker 1 there was a moment in this process where stuff was getting leaked out about the sale. And there was an unflattering piece about, you know, that it came out.

Speaker 1 And I don't even know what Wick's exact stake is, but how small Wick's stake allegedly was with the Celtics and they're shooting too high. And there was stuff.
And

Speaker 1 I don't think that went great for Pegs. And whether, whatever he may have done or not done, and maybe he did nothing.

Speaker 1 But I think there was a feeling that somebody was trying to nag the price and make it lower to try to make it. And I think you look at 90-year-old Irv Grossbeck,

Speaker 1 who's like one of the great business people of the last, like really respected, respected as a thinker. And he's tutored a bunch of people and he's a mentor to a lot of people.

Speaker 1 And he's just, he's rich for a reason. And I don't think it went over very well that stuff started coming out that they wanted too much for the team.
Because ultimately, who's saying that?

Speaker 1 It's either it's like the Fenway group, who I don't think ever ever was going to try to do it anyway, or somebody that was already actively trying to buy the team, and there weren't a lot of people at that point.

Speaker 1 So, I think from the moment that happened, when those stories came out,

Speaker 1 it started to get dicey. And there's a lot of people in the organization who are rooting for him to get it because he was stability.
It's like if he comes in, everything will remain the same.

Speaker 1 And I think when that happened, people started getting nervous.

Speaker 2 I would say too, Bill, like there were people rooting for him to get it. I do think there were people who were,

Speaker 1 I was kind of rooting for him too, because I wanted things, I wanted things to stay somewhat the same

Speaker 2 i i do think there were also people rooting for him not to get it though like yeah i think there was a faction there that didn't want him to get it in part because

Speaker 2 all the stuff he's saying now um and i'm sure he would have said it once he if he had gotten control of the team and i'm not sure everybody believes him right like i don't know that everybody believes that he would be the guy to just pour money into this team to keep it a championship contender throughout the tatum brown era like they just didn't believe him like he's

Speaker 2 he's got allies within the organization, but I think he also has people that are not as fond of him inside the organization. So I think it was kind of a mixed bag there.

Speaker 2 I also don't necessarily know because like there were, even though there was kind of a whittled down list of finalists, there were a lot of people trying to buy this team and trying to get into the mix for this team.

Speaker 2 And there were a lot of people, and I heard this through NBA, and the NBA stayed connected to the sale process.

Speaker 2 And I was hearing through those sources, like that people were kind of grumbling over like, how are you asking for this when you're not giving us an arena?

Speaker 2 It's just a team and all the money we have to spend.

Speaker 2 So, there were a lot of people frustrated with the price. And I think it's just as likely that some of that stuff about WIC leaked out from someone not named Steve Pagliuka as it was that it was.

Speaker 1 That's why we don't know how it leaked out or what happened, but I think once it happened, it changed the tenor of this whole thing where they were like, okay, fuck, fuck all you people.

Speaker 1 Now we're going to get the price we want.

Speaker 1 And you mentioned there were a lot of people kicking the tires tires on it. You know, it was double figures.
It got whittled down to five.

Speaker 1 Lori was in it, the Eagles owner, and then for whatever reason, dropped out right after the Super Bowl or before the Super Bowl, right around the Super Bowl. I think it was after, who knows?

Speaker 1 But it went from five to four.

Speaker 1 And I, Chisholm was the mystery guy to me. I didn't, there's, even if you were Googling him today, there just isn't a lot of information about him.
He's grew up on the North Shore, went to Dartmouth.

Speaker 1 His son plays soccer at Dartmouth and graduated at 19. He's on this like weird tech fun, hedge fund thing, and he's apparently a huge Celtics fan.
And that's all we know.

Speaker 1 But this is why it's so amazing when somebody buys a team like the Celtics. You go from, I could walk by you and have no idea who you are to now you're one of the kings in Boston.

Speaker 1 And I think that's, I think Wicks had a really hard time with that over the last year, knowing that there's some endgame where when you're the owner of the Celtics, the room treats you a little differently than when you're not.

Speaker 1 And I think he's aware of that.

Speaker 2 Which, you know, leads into this idea that he's going to be the governor of this team for the next three years, which I believe is going to be the case because I believe it's going to be codified in the sale agreement.

Speaker 2 Like this is not going to be kind of whatever handshake deal Mark Cuban had with

Speaker 2 Patrick Dumont and the Adelson family.

Speaker 1 Like I think he's going to have a bunch of people. Did he have any deal?

Speaker 2 No, he didn't have any deal there. That's kind of what the problem was.
Like Cuban went into the sale thinking, all right, well, you know,

Speaker 2 they're going to let me do this.

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, very quickly, it was was determined that he wasn't i i do think even if it's nominal we're gonna get wick grossbeck as one of the front-facing owners of this team for the next three years now i think there are going to be problems with that because if you're the guy footing the bill for the franchise you don't you're not going to have key decisions being made by someone that's got one foot out the door like i think that there are certainly potential problems with that but i think look wick All along, I've thought that Wick wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

Speaker 2 He would not be selling this team if he wasn't being forced to by his family.

Speaker 2 But because he was being forced to, he wanted to make sure that there was top dollar involved in the return and that he would get to hold on to his place atop of the totem pole as long as humanly possible.

Speaker 2 And it sure looks like right now that's what he's going to get.

Speaker 2 Like I had some people texting me today, you know, basically saying, don't be surprised if you see Wick kind of take some of the money that he's going to get off this and try to get back into the ownership group in a small slice of it to stay kind of connected to this team.

Speaker 2 So, I don't think, look, he's not going to be running the team forever, but I don't think Wick Grossbeck is going anywhere anytime soon.

Speaker 1 So, his statement, and it was funny because they released this statement from Boston Business Partners, which is the group that owns the team. Wick's the first quote in it,

Speaker 1 and he says that Chisholm asked me to run the team as CEO and governor for the first three years and stay on as his partner, stay on as his partner, and I had to do so.

Speaker 1 And then the next paragraph is a quote from Chisholm. I've never seen somebody buy a team and not be the first quote in the press release.

Speaker 1 Everybody was saying Wick was trying to do this, and it seems like he actually pulled it off. And you mentioned the Cuban piece.

Speaker 1 I never believed it as it was happening. It seemed inconceivable to me that somebody was going to buy a sports team.
And then just let somebody who didn't own that.

Speaker 1 We just don't see that really happened ever. And the times we've seen it happen, we're like Pat Croce and the Sixers, you be the government, and then it would always go badly within a year.

Speaker 1 So it says three years,

Speaker 1 it doesn't mean it's going to be three years. So if I gave you like the fan duel over-under, and I gave you the two and a half, like boxing, two and a half rounds.
Is it would you go over under?

Speaker 1 If you gave me two and a half for the over-under, I don't know what I'd bet.

Speaker 2 I go under. I go under.

Speaker 2 I just think there's too many big decisions that are made by a team governor.

Speaker 2 And I think

Speaker 2 Chisholm and his ownership group is going to be the ones making that decision. Now, maybe there's synergy between the two.
Maybe there's

Speaker 2 no space between them, no room for daylight. They're all in lockstep.
But the second they disagree on something, it's going to be Chisholm that says, it's my team. Do what you want.

Speaker 2 You want to stay in this capacity as a front-facing owner, as the governor of the team, fine, but we're doing things my way. And I don't blame him.
You're putting up a valuation of six billion.

Speaker 1 Of course, they should have that. Absolutely.
So it's Chisholm.

Speaker 2 Chisholm. Okay.

Speaker 1 No, I don't know how to, how are you saying it?

Speaker 2 I've been saying that.

Speaker 1 I've been saying a little about this guy. I don't even know how to pronounce his name.
Well, this is kind of Chisholm.

Speaker 2 I'm kind of saying in the Massachusetts way, though, like we both kind of are there. Like, if I see that name, I call him Chisholm.

Speaker 1 Can he put up like a social media thing on and be like, here's how to pronounce my name. Please call me Bill.
I refuse to believe his name's William. It's got to be Bill.

Speaker 1 His son's name's Will, which tells me he's a Bill. Um, so here's one of the many things that I don't get about this.
For that kind of price,

Speaker 1 and you're not going to quote unquote be the governor for the first three years. I mean, now he's in his mid-50s.
He graduated from Dartmouth in 91.

Speaker 1 So he's in, this is prime NBA owner, NFL owner range, like from mid-50s all the way through to mid-70s, a 20-year run. He's got the son.
I have no idea if the son's going to be groomed to have a role.

Speaker 1 With Pagluca, his son, I think, would have been a big part of it. We'll see with this.
Same thing with if Lori had gotten it. I think his son would have been a big part of it.

Speaker 1 I just find it hard to believe you're going to buy this team, do the victory lap, do the press conference, figure out where your tickets are, have these huge decisions like, oh my God, if we get bounced in round two of the playoffs.

Speaker 1 we're losing a shitload of money on top of this $200 million luxury tax bill that's coming. Let me just turn over all the decision making to WI.
That seems crazy.

Speaker 1 And we haven't really seen it happen in anything else. So I'm like you.

Speaker 1 I'm watching it.

Speaker 2 I'm skeptical.

Speaker 2 You just, this, again, there's too many

Speaker 2 personnel decisions, financial decisions to just fork over to somebody that's eventually going to sell you the rest of the team or whatever it is in a period of time.

Speaker 2 I think it can last for a year, a year and a half, maybe two years, but eventually something's going to come up to cause fissures between these two sides. There's just too much money at stake for

Speaker 2 me to believe that

Speaker 2 it's going to be this lasting, fruitful relationship now. I do think, though, Bill, like

Speaker 2 I don't know that the new ownership group really had much of a choice with all this.

Speaker 2 Like, I think it was presented this way, like, all right, we'll say the team, but you got to take all this with you. Like, if you don't take this, we'll go to option B.

Speaker 2 We have other offers on the table. Like, you saw it was the Globe story back in January.
There's four finalists. Like, there were people that wanted this team.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure that Wick leveraged that and used that to his advantage.

Speaker 2 Say, all right, if you want to buy this team, you're going to put up the $6.1 billion valuation, but you're also going to agree to X, Y, and Z.

Speaker 2 And that's, I think that's what they were kind of forced to stomach in order to gain control of this team.

Speaker 1 So, some of the questions that are left is: was this the highest offer?

Speaker 1 I'm going to assume it was.

Speaker 1 Had to be, but he's doing a lot of debt and all this stuff to,

Speaker 1 whereas, because I thought it was notable, Pagliuka said in this thing, we had a real offer.

Speaker 1 He sounded like a guy who didn't get the house he thought he was going to get. It's like, I had a real offer.
I offered you all cash. I don't understand why you went with this other person.

Speaker 1 They didn't offer you all cash.

Speaker 1 I don't understand the wick part at all. And there's another piece of this, too.
And I'm sure you've been around the team a lot. Like

Speaker 1 he's pretty devastated that they're selling in the first place.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he's talked about it pretty openly to people that ask him about it. And it's been a theme that has been going around the last couple of months that his dad pushed for this.

Speaker 1 His dad wanted to do it for the estate planning, all the stuff they said. But I think especially with winning the title last year,

Speaker 1 the team being really good this year, I think Wick's had a really hard time with this, even harder than maybe he's let on publicly. So

Speaker 1 staying on now for two more years, but knowing that there's an endgame, it's a really weird variable.

Speaker 1 I'm excited because he's a great owner and I hope he stays on and has the same impact he had, but it's weird. I feel bad.

Speaker 1 It's weird to feel bad for somebody who just sold something for $6.1 billion, but I just don't think he wanted to sell. I don't.

Speaker 2 He absolutely did not want to sell.

Speaker 2 This was his father, and we've covered this ad nauseum, but like his father, you know, recognizing his own mortality and figuring it's better to get your affairs in order with cash and not with the Boston Celtics.

Speaker 2 Like, that's right. That's why.
I wonder if over the next couple of years that Wick would come to appreciate the foresight of his father here. Like, I think he's getting out at exactly the right time.

Speaker 2 Like, think about what you accomplished in the 23 years you owned the Boston Celtics. You won two championships.
You put together two kind of mini dynasties, You know, the one from the

Speaker 2 08 to 2012, whatever it was, era didn't achieve as much as it probably could have achieved if guys had stayed healthy. But you got that group together.
You won a championship.

Speaker 2 You pulled off the greatest draft trade in whatever history by dealing all those picks and getting all those picks from the Nets.

Speaker 2 And you rebuild the team that's been in two finals in three years and is well positioned to win another championship. Like you have, you got an A-plus for ownership.

Speaker 1 And not only

Speaker 1 Brown.

Speaker 2 You stuck with Tatum and Brown.

Speaker 1 And you became the best owner in Boston by 2025, hands down.

Speaker 2 Imagine if, like, John Henry had sold the team like 10 years ago. Like, what would we be thinking about John Henry now?

Speaker 2 Rather than stick around and

Speaker 2 watch this team slowly deteriorate, which it's going to eventually, right?

Speaker 2 Like, maybe it takes three years, maybe it takes five years, but it's eventually going to deteriorate to the point where we're looking, we're going to look at them.

Speaker 1 I was feeling this. I was feeling good.
What the hell?

Speaker 2 We're going to be looking at them like we look at Milwaukee, though, at some point, right?

Speaker 2 Like, because they're just going to be so, you know, financially stretched that they've got to peel off some of these pieces and they're not going to be as good as they are right now.

Speaker 2 If you're Wick Grossbeck, like you went out on top, and not only did you go out on top, you got the greatest exit strategy one could possibly have, which in the form of $6 billion, you can take your cut of and do something else.

Speaker 2 Like, you've proven you are a great NBA owner. You accomplished it.
You can go on. You're still relatively young.

Speaker 2 I mean, you can go on and do the next thing if you really wanted to in professional sports.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would say he was one of the most successful sports owners of this century. I'd agree.
He took a team that

Speaker 1 had really no assets other than Pierce and no cap space and was able to rebuild it. It's

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 PAGS piece of it. He didn't get the Nets.

Speaker 1 Well, he didn't get the Nets. He ran for governor and didn't get that.
And then everyone thought he was getting the Celtics and he didn't get that.

Speaker 1 He has the Italian soccer team, but I just, he's got to be dying today, just dying. But I think we all felt like this was probably coming.

Speaker 1 Like, I had hit a point where I didn't, I wouldn't have bet on him.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of people, but the thing that I'm going to be interested to see if it floats out over the next couple of days is, did he have any chance?

Speaker 1 Was had this turned into a situation where they were like, we're just not selling to this guy.

Speaker 2 That's the next story is,

Speaker 1 you know, we next story to figure out.

Speaker 2 Right. We talked about kind of the relationship between Wick and Pags is not what it once was.
Like, how strained had that relationship become?

Speaker 2 Had it reached a toxic level to the point where Wick Russpeck was never going to be interested in selling the team to Pag Meuka? Because that, I don't know, man.

Speaker 2 You don't release a statement like that unless you're really livid at how the whole thing played out.

Speaker 1 Well, and he released the statement right after they put the team for sale, right? He got one up that day too, Pagau. That day.

Speaker 2 I'm in. He was the first one to get in to all that.

Speaker 2 He made it clear from Jump that he wanted to be the guy that bought this team and took over its stewardship.

Speaker 2 And second, and within minutes after it being announced as being sold, he had a much stronger statement that went out there. Yeah, I think that that's the next thing to figure out:

Speaker 2 was this just about money? Like the fact that Celtics could get a record $6.1 billion price. And hey, if you can't meet it, you can't meet it.
Or was there more to it?

Speaker 2 Was the relationship between Wick and PAG something that affected the sale of the team?

Speaker 1 I would say yes. This episode is brought to you by Velveeta.
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Speaker 1 That's now we've established the price, $6 billion if you want in, $12 billion. Teams split it 30 ways.
That's $400 million in cash the owners get. They don't share with the players.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 Chisholm is buying in here at 6.1. He knows he's getting 400 billion back over the next couple of years with this expansion fee.

Speaker 1 So it's really 5.7 because that's what, you know, that's what Cuban forfeited. That's what the grossbacks forfeited by selling now.

Speaker 1 You get that money that maybe goes to luxury tax. I was trying to walk my dad off the ledge this morning because my dad's just like, the Luca thing has spooked my dad.

Speaker 1 He was like, you can't say like the new Dallas owners, everything seemed great. And then they're trading Luca Donchic for a day in a first and Max Christie.
Like, yeah, I'm worried.

Speaker 1 We're going to do something stupid now. I knew what we had with Wick.
And it's hard to talk someone off the ledge on that.

Speaker 2 I'm more worried, though,

Speaker 2 no, worry is the wrong word. Like this year is going to play out how it's going to play out.

Speaker 2 I think the peeling off is going to be the Hausers. It's going to be maybe even a Derrick White.
You know, the guys that you have ready-made replacements on the roster.

Speaker 1 Derek White, what are you doing to me?

Speaker 2 I'm not saying it's going to happen. I would say this, though.
I think that.

Speaker 2 This team right now,

Speaker 2 as currently constructed, is only protected by championships. Like you win a championship this summer, ownership is going to bring it back, right? You're not going to blow up a team that has a chance.

Speaker 1 You're not trading Jalen Brown to the wherever.

Speaker 2 No chance. Or even two weeks after the title.
Or even someone like Derek White. Like, I think Sam Hauser is probably gone.

Speaker 2 Like, the second he signed that contract, when you looked at what the other contracts are going to be, like, I was like, there's no way Sam Hauser.

Speaker 1 I was more worried about Drew.

Speaker 1 Because Drew's like low 30s and, you know, the right team that wants a vet and you think you're the Celts and you're like, this is kind of a luxury to have a guy like this.

Speaker 1 Those are, it's, it's in that white holiday grouping that could be the first to go. Unless I hope they keep Tayman Brown together forever.
And I love having those guys as a combo.

Speaker 1 And I think historically they have a chance to be something really special. Just two guys playing together their whole careers like that, one draft apart, winning titles.

Speaker 1 Like that's how many pairings have done that? Like, and how many pairings have fallen apart before they got to that point? So, but you know, if you're paying $130 million a year for two guys,

Speaker 1 it's almost impossible.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't, I'm not concerned that something like breaking them up is is on the table. Um, but again, I do think that you're going to see some guys whacked off the payroll.

Speaker 2 You saw Baylor go off the other night, like Sam Hauser be watching that, going, like, all right, I'm out the door. Like, that's right.
If that guy can do what I was doing, like, I mean, that's

Speaker 2 that to me is, is what you're looking at in the years to come.

Speaker 2 Now, if it gets bad, like if they wind up getting beat in the second round, you know, for some reason, not this year, but like next year, then I can see it slowly start to be taken apart.

Speaker 2 But for right now, it's more about the ancillary pieces and what you can replace them with. Like, look, they drafted Baylor, and like

Speaker 2 that was a surprise that they drafted him. They must have really believed in him because their payroll jumped a lot, you know.
because of the guaranteed money that comes with a first-round pick.

Speaker 2 They obviously believe in him and watched him go off against, was it the Nets the other night?

Speaker 2 Like that, maybe they're justified in believing that, that he can be the cheap alternative to Sam Hauser and be your seventh, eighth, ninth man coming off your bench.

Speaker 1 Well, the team's in a weird spot. They're stuck at second.

Speaker 1 You have Cleveland stuck at first and the Knicks probably stuck at third. And you have a month of the season left and all crappy teams for the most part on the schedule.

Speaker 1 And it's like, let's try to keep everyone healthy. Let's try to give these guys the minutes.

Speaker 1 They're doing this interesting strategy with the best guys, Tatum and Brown, but they either won't play them or they'll play them real minutes. They're not doing like play 25.

Speaker 1 Like they're either playing them a playoff game minutes or not playing them.

Speaker 1 And they have the luxury to do whatever they want and try to get Shireman and people like that going.

Speaker 1 I think they're, I just think they're better than the Knicks in that if they lost to the Knicks, that would be catastrophic because they've had their number all year and everything's heading toward this Cleveland series.

Speaker 1 And Cleveland's just lost three games in a row. And for the first time, it's the Russian is cut.

Speaker 2 It's just a little bit of of that and i i i just think they feel like if everyone's healthy and kp's in there we're going to be in the finals again it seems to be the attitude right uh it yes that's the attitude in boston i would also tell you that there's not overconfidence in the front office or the coaching staff in cleveland either like i just finished this story on kind of on evan mobley but on a lot of bunch of young guys in in the nba that are potential difference makers in the playoffs And talking to people in Cleveland, even though they're two and two against the Celtics during the regular season and

Speaker 2 they played really well in Boston coming back to win that game, they recognize that they have not yet gotten the Celtics' best shot.

Speaker 2 Like they haven't gotten that championship round Haymaker to make a boxing analogy. And they know that's coming and they have to figure out how they, they don't know yet how they respond.

Speaker 2 to something like that.

Speaker 2 And look, the guy that worries them the most is Christas Porzingis, because look, they've got Evan Mobley and Evan Mobley's Mobley's been great all season long, but Evan Mobley does not play well against Christas Porzingis.

Speaker 2 You look at some of the numbers. They're not great.
And that's a matchup that the Cavs know they have to dominate. Like they, if it's a wash between Mobley and Porzingis, the Celtics win in six.

Speaker 2 Like they have to completely dominate that matchup between Mobley and Porzingis. And I'm not sure they're capable of doing that.
I think Porzingis, when he's right, both ends of the floor is great.

Speaker 2 So I think in Cleveland, they're happy with what they've done. No doubt about that.

Speaker 2 They've been surprised by a lot of things, but they're not sitting there going, like, we're whatever, 10 games up on Boston. We're 10 games better.

Speaker 2 They know that a conference final series is a totally different animal.

Speaker 1 Well, one other thing is they kind of blew the home court against OKC if they are able to get to the finals. They just lost that in five days.

Speaker 1 They had a chance to basically control their own fate the whole way. And now, OKC, and you know, they'll turn it on.
So, from a Celtic standpoint, that's potentially

Speaker 1 looming down the road.

Speaker 1 I love the way Tatum is playing. and and

Speaker 1 you know for me it's i just want to know who's on the team in round two is kp there am i am i reading stories from people like you with like

Speaker 1 kp hopefully in game three he'll be back like if we're going down that road i think it's gonna be really hard to win yeah and then the west who the f knows beyond okc i've changed my mind 20 times in the last week even since we did the sunday pot like i i don't know what to expect in the west so um we'll see what happens Can I just to put a button on the

Speaker 2 sale and the team?

Speaker 2 Al Horford, I think, is the first big test, right? Like, Al Horford is, his contract's up, right? The end of this year, like,

Speaker 2 he's still invaluable, right? Like, the way he's playing, you got to bring him back. Like, how much are they willing to spend?

Speaker 2 Is it a no-brainer to bring him back at a two-year deal at kind of similar money as he made last time around, which is going to cost you a ton of money as well?

Speaker 2 Like, that, that to me is the first test of how much this ownership group is willing to spend on this team because he's going to cost you something and real money over the course of a new deal.

Speaker 1 Well, and there's been, if you look at the history of the team, there's been some Al Horford moments over the years where most of the time they've let the guy go and kept their fingers crossed.

Speaker 1 In this case,

Speaker 1 you could make a case he's the most beloved Celtic teammate that we've seen. I was trying to think.

Speaker 1 I was talking to somebody about this, about is anybody more loved by the people that play with him and coach him than Al Horford.

Speaker 1 Like that Laker game was so fascinating when the Lakers were going at him and he started talking shit and Tatum was talking shit. And apparently there was just a lot of shit talking on both sides.

Speaker 1 They kept going at Al. He's talking shit.
And when he came out of that game, the bench like went like crazy. They were so fired.
They just absolutely love him.

Speaker 1 And I think that would be a really tough one to leave. That's even, that's not James Posey.
We won a title with you. Oh, it would suck if you left.
This is like, he's in the fabric.

Speaker 1 Tatum and Brown grew up with the dude, you know, so that you're right. That's probably the first big test.

Speaker 1 My feeling is if you spend that amount of money on a team and you want to impress people in the city you grew up with, you're probably going to spend money the first couple of years.

Speaker 1 But we've seen these new owners come in and they're absolutely nuts. Here are my ideas.
We're going to do this. We're going to zag when everybody's zigging.
And it's like, oh boy, here we go.

Speaker 2 They're still doing it. They're still doing it.
Like Matt Ishbia did that ridiculous ESPN interview where he was talking about we're building around Devin Booker and he's the guy we're going to keep.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 not to take this a different direction, but Devin Booker is too old to win a championship in Phoenix. Simple as that.

Speaker 2 Like he's, he's not too old to win a championship or lead a team to a championship. He's too old to lead that team to a championship.

Speaker 1 Because it would be five years from now.

Speaker 2 Yes, because he's eight. Look, he's aged.
Next season is age 29 season next year. Like now is the time you did.

Speaker 2 Like now is the time to sell the Celtics as a franchise, to kind of bring these two together. Now is the time to sell the team.
Now is the time to deal Devin Devin Booker.

Speaker 2 If Houston comes to Colin with all your draft capital, offering it back, if Oklahoma City calls and says, here's three or four players plus three or four draft picks, you are crazy if you're Phoenix and not doing that.

Speaker 2 That's some of the new owner craziness that's still out there in the league.

Speaker 1 You think there's a new arena in 10 years?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yes.
I do too. I don't see, we should have talked about that sooner.
I don't see how you spend this kind of money, but then also don't buy, build an arena.

Speaker 2 There's also places you can build it. Like the seaports become cool again.
Like it wasn't when, you know, I was younger, probably not when you were younger back there.

Speaker 2 But now it's become like this cool place opposite Southeast. And there's room to do stuff down there.

Speaker 1 There's stuff near 93 that the place they were looking at for the Olympics. If you go back and read the Olympic stories from 2014, there's a specific spot like past

Speaker 1 where Emerson plays soccer and lacrosse. Like when you're driving by going toward the Cape.

Speaker 1 there's this whole section that is the spot that they're going to make like the hub of the olympics and i feel like that i think it's called like the rill yard or something.

Speaker 1 I think that's where the arena would go. That's really the only open spot that's in the city in the right way.

Speaker 1 Or it could be Seaport, but I mean, Seaport's already really hard to get to back and forth now.

Speaker 1 For putting 19,000 fans there, it would be a little rough.

Speaker 2 They'd have to reinvent the

Speaker 2 T there and figure out

Speaker 2 new stops that go into that area.

Speaker 1 I would put it right on the other side of the hill in Charlestown. We're going right in the town.

Speaker 1 like 12 000 seat arena let's

Speaker 1 go

Speaker 1 i mean that would be taking our mojo back

Speaker 2 i would love to see it but there's just no way you're not buying this team and like renegotiating your lease for td garden which already by nba arena standards is old it's bottom third in the league in terms of of of

Speaker 1 well there's another there's another possibility of it too where you can there's a second part of this where you try to buy the Jacobs side and the Bruins and the arena and try to own everything.

Speaker 1 Because if they leave that arena,

Speaker 1 the Bruins are screwed, right? They had this

Speaker 1 35-year-old.

Speaker 1 When was Fweet Center? 95, I think it was. My first year, my first year as a ball boy with the team was the first year.
Oh, die, nice. Yes.

Speaker 1 So 30-year-old arena, and then you're going to lose your basketball team in like 2005 years.

Speaker 1 I don't see it.

Speaker 2 There's not enough YouTube concerts you could put in there.

Speaker 1 Mannix, before we go,

Speaker 1 where am I with Bocoli?

Speaker 2 Oh, mentally. May 3rd.

Speaker 1 May 3rd.

Speaker 1 You told me not to bet on him. I did.
You told me it was a money grab.

Speaker 2 I did.

Speaker 1 You told me he was flying

Speaker 1 cross the world and had 14 hours before the fight and was just going to try to throw some bombs and it probably wasn't looking great, but he was getting paid more than he's ever been paid in his life.

Speaker 1 So I didn't sell any of my stock on your advice, but I'm still a little worried because he's got his ass kicked.

Speaker 2 I'd be less worried because it wasn't like a, you know, eight-round ass kicking. He took a shot at the top of the head that completely discombobulated him.
And you saw his trainer, Billy Nelson.

Speaker 2 I mean, I have Olympic gymnasts have not gone up on an apron faster than Billy Nelson got up there to throw the towel in right there. Like he was, he was ready to go.

Speaker 1 One of the early stoppages ever.

Speaker 2 He was ready to throw that in because his guy did his job. When that first bell rang, Martin Baccoli had done his job.

Speaker 2 It was hilarious covering that out there because like Billy Nelson flew from Scotland, where he lives and usually trains Bocoli over to Riyadh.

Speaker 2 But Bocoli had to fly like premium economy through a connection because what I was told, like the Congo doesn't allow private jets in on like short notice.

Speaker 2 Like you can't just fly a private jet in and out of the Congo. So he had to fly.
like Ethiopian air, a connection through Ethiopia to get there. He got in literally two o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 2 There There was no chance on God's earth.

Speaker 1 The fight, the day before the fight, two in the morning. The day of the fight, like two in the morning, the day of the fight.

Speaker 2 Saturday morning, 2 a.m., he got in. And then, of course, they have him doing like three interviews when he gets there.

Speaker 2 Like, let the fucking guy go to bed and try to get some rest before he's got to report to work in 12 hours.

Speaker 2 I'm not, I wouldn't sell your stock.

Speaker 2 He's fighting on May 3rd on this Canelo undercard over in Riyadh. He's fighting F.A.A.
Jagba again. They're keeping that fight there.
He's fully capable of beating F.A.A. Jagba.

Speaker 2 He didn't take really, I mean, he took one good shot. He flew over from the Congo and took one good shot, got out, got a paycheck, which I thought I heard was about $3 million,

Speaker 2 and was able to go back to work the next day. So I'd still keep my Martin Bacoli stock.
He's going to wait in the 200s for this next fight. He's probably going to beat a Jagba.

Speaker 2 I think we're once again talking about him second half of this year.

Speaker 1 I didn't tell you, but I put a small bet on because you're awesome to have a fight. I tried to.
I bet Bacoli, I know, but I can't not bet Bacoli KO. It's like a blind blind bet.

Speaker 1 I'm just betting it every time. I had to do it.
So, Canelo, May 3rd, are we excited for that fight?

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 That was your answer. When do we get Canelo Crawford?

Speaker 2 September. So, Canelo Crawford, like the worst kept secret in boxing, is that Canelo Crawford is happening in September.

Speaker 2 It's going to be promoted by this new Dana White Saudi Arabia Nikkon promotional company, and it's going to be on Netflix. Like, that's going to be a Netflix event in September.

Speaker 2 And, you know, there'll be some big names on that. This, this whole card on May is entirely designed to get Canelo that fourth title back.
William Skull has that belt. So you get in that belt back.

Speaker 2 You can say Canelo is the undisputed champ going up against Crawford, the two-time Undisputed Champ. It just helps sell the fight.
Like, that's, that's, that's really what that card is for.

Speaker 2 It is going to be in prime time, though. I think it's interesting.
Like, they're going to.

Speaker 1 On a Saturday night?

Speaker 2 Yeah. They're going to fight in Riyadh at like 9 a.m.
is what I heard or 9 to 10 o'clock in the morning to make it prime time over in the U.S. So

Speaker 2 it will be a good time for U.S. audiences to watch.
Maybe not so much for the guys fighting on the undercard who might be fighting at 5 a.m. But it'll be interesting that that timing.

Speaker 1 And the NFL will have started at that point and college football will be going. So

Speaker 1 it's going to be an insane weekend. Well, we'll see how much boxing Netflix does.
So Netflix, they're definitely intrigued, but that Tyson fight. I think was a jawdropper for them.

Speaker 1 And it seems like they're going to be dabbling a little bit more.

Speaker 2 So their plan, what I was told, was to do like one big event a quarter. Like that's the mindset of Netflix.
Like they're not going to try to be Dazone or what HBO was and do fights every weekend.

Speaker 2 That's not their bag. But they are doing this Katie Taylor Amanda Serrano trilogy fight at MSG.
That's July 11th. That's going to be on Netflix.

Speaker 2 Like I said, I think the, yeah, 100% sure at this point that the Cadillac Crawford fight is going to be on Netflix. They're also after Anthony Joshua Tyson Fury.

Speaker 2 Like that's a fight they want to put on, which is such a huge global event.

Speaker 2 They'd love to get their hands on that for either end of this year or early next year, whenever Tyson Fury decides to rejoin the boxing rank.

Speaker 2 So, one per quarter right now is my understanding of what Netflix wants to do.

Speaker 1 So, what's the fight of the year? If you had to bet, if you have to bet on one?

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 Canelo Crawford's at the fight of the year. No, just what's going to be 2025's fight of the year when it's December 31st.

Speaker 2 So, Canelo Crawford's not going to be it because I need

Speaker 1 those

Speaker 2 too big, too strong, too good. Uh,

Speaker 2 well,

Speaker 2 I'm dying to see a Devin Haney Ryan Garcia rematch.

Speaker 1 Dying.

Speaker 2 So those two guys, like that weekend, I'm going to be in New York working the three-fight card that's in Times Square. That's going to be on Disneyland.
That's and Ryan's top of the bill.

Speaker 2 Devin's at the co-main event. Both those guys run against opponents that they can and should beat.
And that would set up the rematch between them. And like given what happened in the first.

Speaker 1 This time we're not cheating the rematch.

Speaker 1 This time, no cheating allowed rematch.

Speaker 2 This time, we're using multiple Ryan Garcia because Ryan Garcia believes that he was screwed by the testing agency

Speaker 2 that caught him. He's using two now.
He's using the one that did it the first time because he has to, and he's using another one to test him just to get verified information that he believes.

Speaker 2 But that's a big one, man. That's two 25-year-old, six-year-old guys with a lot of bad blood.

Speaker 1 Like probably the most bad blood that we have. Press tour is going to be awesome.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm all in for that.

Speaker 1 All right. Manix, great to see you.
You too. Thank you.

Speaker 2 You got it.

Speaker 1 All right. Thanks to McShea.
Thanks to Manix. Thanks to Sarudi and Gahal and Kyle.
As always, I hope your March Madness brackets go great.

Speaker 1 Don't forget to check out Good Hang with Amy Poehr, two episodes up. Rewatchables, Days of Thunder, Prestige TV.
If you miss White Lotus, that's up there. And then Celtic City, episode four.

Speaker 1 Coming Monday night on HBO and Max Larry Bird shows up. And guess what? He was really good at basketball.
So that's what we got. I will see you on a Sunday.

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