Bugle 4034 – Judges and prison

The Bugle, audio newspaper for a visual world.

Hello, Buglers, and congratulations for tuning your dials to Bugle FM.

Later this hour, it's a classic from Hermann's Hermits.

But first, here's the weather with...

Oh, shit.

Sorry, sorry, this is the wrong outlet.

This is the podcast version we're recording now, my mistake.

Hello, buglers, and welcome to issue 4034 of the Bugle, audio newspaper for a world unashamed of its own ceaseless visuality.

I am Andy Zoltzmann, and I can now officially confirm I am not the subject of the Carly Simon song You're So Vain.

I would just like to quell that rumour right away, nor have I ever been the inspiration and muse of Pablo Picasso.

So if anyone has told you otherwise, I can only apologise.

I'm in London, as is so often the case, that can't be coincidence.

And joining me from the madcap metropolis of Mumbai, the home of the Carhorn Honkin Cacophony, that is a very satisfying collection of words to say, it's the Bugles official representative of the continent of Asia, Anuvab Pal.

Hello, Andy.

Hello.

How is Asia as a continent?

Well, you know, it's still in the same place, I'm happy to report.

Regardless of what you may have heard, it hasn't moved.

I know we live in a post-fact world.

You may have seen social media clips that India is now closer to China, Qatar has ceased to exist, but none of these things are true.

Geographically, tectonically speaking, everything is still in the same place, Andy.

As always, a section of the bugle is going straight in the bin.

This week, we review the latest self-help guidebooks for low achievers, including the latest from Dr.

Vermeen Tardretti.

A book entitled Find Your Plateau, which guides you down the path to acceptance of your own limitations, reviewed as, quote, gloriously uninspiring, five stars from Career Mediocrity magazine.

We also look at Brenda Clanch's Snooze Him of the Koala Mum, a low-octane parenting handbook to save you time, effort, energy, frustration, and disappointment, given that realistically your child is probably going to be pretty ordinary anyway.

So kick back and enjoy the ride.

Leashing Your Inner Self.

This is a terrific day-by-day handbook by the British Institute of the Safely Mundane, helping you avoid the heartbreak of unfulfilled life goals by learning to suppress your true ambitions.

That's a follow-up, of course, to the disappointingly best-selling Aim Low, Don't Grow.

And also we look at Cloud Watching Through the Glass Ceiling, How Life is Simpler When You Don't Give a Shit by former Security Garden Janitor Ian Blard.

It's an autobiographical blueprint for a numbingly unremarkable life.

That section is in the bin.

And also in the bin this week, well, we've had a heat wave here in Britain.

I imagine Anuva, by comparison with the basically permanent heat wave that is

Mumbai, you're probably not that impressed with our 33 degree temperatures.

But to get any British buglers through the heat wave, we have some free cold thoughts to cool you down.

A penguin eating a packet of frozen fish fingers in a bobsled.

Polar bears playing musical statues at the Kamchatka Winter Festival of Outdoor Ambient Jazz.

The soul of Teresa May.

That section also in the bin.

Today's top story, Andy.

And you know, every time we talk, there's always Indian news because there's never a shortage of some sort of lunacy where I'm from.

If you remember, we talked about a mad judge.

We talked about an Indian High Court judge who'd gone mad.

And he issued an arrest warrant on a bunch of Supreme Court judges who'd issued an arrest warrant on him.

He'd gone into hiding for a few months.

And I'm happy to report that he has been found.

And

I just want to know what your views are on this, just legally as well.

Because when he was found, and the police, the special branch of police, they're known as the CBI in India, the Central Bureau of Investigation, when they caught him, he immediately issued an arrest warrant on them, which confused them immensely because

they had an alternative legal warrant in their hand.

And, you know, as a student of law and jurisprudence, Andy, I just wanted to know what this does to legal matters generally, when you go to arrest a judge and he arrests you in turn.

Well, I mean, that's,

you've got to admire the imagination he's put into that.

So just, I mean, I don't know if it'll work if you're not a high court judge.

I mean, can you just put on a judge's wig and wield that authority and say, no, no, I'm having you arrested?

I mean it's quite kind of playground level response, isn't it?

Oh, you're arresting me?

No, I'm arresting you.

And then, I don't know, jump off the ground and say you're safe.

I mean, this, to me, it seems, this is the kind of chaos that the watching world

expects from India.

Justice Carnan, who we talked about a few weeks ago,

he described the Contempt of Courts Act as, quotes, a cathartic jurisprudence which belonged to the Dark Ages, the era of Inquisition and torture, distinct from the classical Roman law which constitutes the foundation of modern jurisprudence.

And I mean that's that is I mean that again that is the kind of language that you want from a high-level legal executive.

Precisely Andy, precisely.

In fact, it took them six weeks to understand what he was saying before they could arrest him because the English language is not as prevalent in the lower orders of the security forces as it is among high court judges.

And however, the point you raise is a very valid point because what differentiates differentiates just madness, you know, which is a man with a wig and a gavel just pronouncing sentences, and a mad judge, you know, who sets up his own court in his house.

There is nuance here, Andy.

There is nuance.

And an interesting angle on this is that whilst he was in hiding, he retired.

He reached retirement age, and he became, and I quote an Indian newspaper here, the first judge of a high court to retire whilst being untraceable.

Now, that is an unsurprising record to have said.

That is a small crossover in the Venn diagram of judges.

Of course, there are many judges, not so many high court judges, but very few of them have ever been untraceable.

And also,

no judge who is untraceable would give that up voluntarily, surely.

So if you are untraceable, you're not going to retire.

I mean, he's been forcibly retired because he turned 62.

But, I mean,

the untraceable judge, surely that is, I mean, that's what all judges dream of, isn't it?

That is a dream.

That is a dream, you know?

And often you don't have that intersection, as you correctly pointed out.

Harrison Ford has made a movie called Fugitive.

He has not made a movie called Fugitive Judge, right?

Because

I feel like that intersection is not often met.

And I'm proud to be from a nation where such things do meet.

You know, you can be an absconder and a man who can pronounce the death penalty all in one.

You know?

Yes, we've got a billion people, people, but sometimes we know how to multitask.

That's all I'm trying to get at, Auntie.

In other Indian news now, the Ayosh Ministry, which promotes a traditional and alternative medicine, has issued some wonderful advice to pregnant women, telling them to avoid meat, eggs and impure thoughts.

Now, you might think with pregnancy, eggs and meat and impure thoughts of sorts have obviously been the start of the matter.

The advice listed various things to be avoided, including tea, coffee, sugar, spices, and eggs, and non-veg food.

I mean, India does have a pretty proud record of malnutrition in expectant mothers, so I guess we need to see it in the context of that.

But this is in direct contravention of the advice from the Indian Health Ministry, which has meat and eggs pretty much top of its list of recommended foods.

So, I mean, I guess in a nation of, what, 1.2 billion people,

you're going to have bits of advice that contradict each other, but there must be some pretty confused pregnant women in India right now.

That is correct, Andy.

That is correct.

And also, you know, we're the first nation to classify impure thoughts as an edible product.

So I think that that's one of the basic things that I have a problem with with the Western world is that you differentiate between adverbs and names of food products.

This is the problem, you know?

Why can't you not eat a tomato and a whimsy?

It's like that.

You know, we are more flexible with the English language here, Andy.

And this is why I think we're so far advanced.

You know, that is, we only have to catch up with China and that's it.

You know, because

we've got pure thoughts and meat, and I don't know how it is for you, meat and eggs for me are pure thoughts, you know.

And in the, in a,

I have pure thoughts when I eat them.

And any other kind of food, impure thoughts.

And we classify them together, you know?

And that's why we like to be flexible with the English language, you know, when we say something like, you know, when you're going to school, avoid being hit by cars and bad opinions.

You know, we like to say things like that.

The advice also said women should detach themselves from desire, anger, attachment.

You have to detach yourself from attachment.

I mean, that's linguistically interesting at the best of times anyway.

But also, surely attachment is something you want to practice while you're preparing to have a baby.

Also says you should detach yourself from hateridness, which is just a new word.

That has just been invented.

Hateridness.

I don't know if that means feelings of hate or being hated by something or just something completely different.

It could be

hatteridness.

Maybe don't wear red hats.

I mean, very dangerous to be a pope whilst president.

That is absolutely, absolutely a fact.

And detach yourself from lust, which is very much shooting the horse after the door has bolted.

Now, is it possible, Anuvab?

I know I've been to India I think four times.

Is it possible to find peaceful condition anywhere in India?

It is not, which is why I think what they're saying is leave the country, right?

Find good people.

They don't even have to be your family.

So by default, you are detached.

So what they're saying is give birth in Taiwan, give birth in Russia, anywhere but here.

Find good people.

I think there's a coded, almost KGB type message here.

If you want to bring in a new life, don't do it here.

We've got a lot of people.

Now, we can't say that directly, Andy.

You understand?

So, we as Indians, this is why English is an Indian language.

We have invented an English under your English, and we call it English as well, but it's not English.

You see where I'm coming from.

The booklet also says it, and this is, I think, my favorite bit of it.

During pregnancy, women should read the life histories of great personalities.

I don't know if, you know, I know parents, you know, listen to music during pregnancy to try and stimulate the brains of the babies within them.

I know my children, I was exposing them to the greatest hits of banana armor from, well, shortly before conception.

But reading the life history of great personalities, are they going to Osmose

the wisdom of the ages from their mother reading

these books?

There must be some amazing conversations going on in India at the moment.

How's your morning sickness?

well it was awful until I started reading Henry F.

Pringle's 1932 Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Theodore Roosevelt and now I feel absolutely sensational.

Good so you're hoping for a natural birth?

Yup no no painkillers, no surgical equipment, nothing.

Going for the full Caesarean.

By which I mean I'll be reading Suetonius's second century AD masterpiece De Vita Caesarum the Lives of the Caesars in the original Latin.

I don't want to take any chances.

Awesome advice.

Again Andy great great advice, great advice.

And again, I don't know how you do it in the West.

But, you know, when my son was born, the months before it, it was critical.

It was critical for my wife to read Plautus the Misunderstood Teen Years.

Without that, we would not speak, and I promised not to pay for my son's education.

I think it was critical, the state mandated that we had to read, you know, Alexander, the years, making music videos.

That was critical for us to have, you know, a Kafka, the goalkeeping years.

Now, those things were given to us by the state, and we had to read it.

And, you know, it was mandatory in my house, you know, and

we nearly came close to divorce because, you know, my wife would want to read other things and other books.

And that's not allowed in those months.

It's not allowed by the state.

Well, I'm starting to regret now that, well, I have two children.

During neither pregnancy did I or my wife sit down and read

biographies of the world's leading people?

And I mean, let's look at the evidence.

My kids are 10 and 8 now.

Between them, absolutely zero Nobel Prizes.

So, I mean, clearly, India is onto something here.

I would introduce my son to you, but right now he is playing the third opera of Mozart at four.

So

he's a bit tied up as we speak because he's in the middle of Cossie Fan 20 Quarto 2.

Britain News Now and I'm here in London, the city where the breath of Brexit splutters forth from confused lung.

As we record, Britain is hammering out a deal whereby under Europe and the UK will divorce.

The question is, are we going to try and keep some kind of official friends with benefits status with Europe or is it just going to be occasional informal things behind the back back of a bike shed?

We just don't know.

We don't know yet.

Today, as we record, 23rd of June, and we've had one year to the day since 23rd of June last year.

Or if you're listening to this in America, June the 23rd, 2016.

That was the day when Britain went to vote in the Brexit referendum.

And I think fundamentally the situation we found ourselves in was this.

Britain was on an aeroplane, and we weren't happy on the aeroplane.

We started hearing some noises from the engines.

They may or may not have been problems with those engines.

And we had a vote in Britain over what to do.

And we voted by 52% to 48% to jump out of that aeroplane, excluding the about 30% of people who were still watching their in-flight movies and didn't take part.

But we voted to jump out of the aeroplane.

And now we are jumping out of this aeroplane, ANIFAB, whether we like it or not.

We've made that decision and we have to respect that decision.

And what we need to do as a nation now is come together and work out how the f ⁇ to make a parachute.

That is the most important thing to do when you've jumped out of an aeroplane.

The world is looking at this and they're a little confused.

And they're confused for a couple of reasons, Andy.

Well, first of all, it just seems like

when all they said that somehow when the Brexit happened, it was a revenge of people of a certain age, right?

And now they're saying that this election is a revenge of the young.

And it's seeming to us that

for whatever reason, you did not allow the old and the young to vote at the same time.

And it seems like the old people went, and then the young people went.

And it's quite confusing that through this process, it seems to the world that, yes, you all said, you know, you wanted to leave Europe, and now people are saying you want to stay in Europe.

And then everybody in the past did not like this gentleman, Jeremy Corbyn, even though I think he has a fine beard, he's a fine, very distinguished, very medical-looking gentleman.

Beard, and I would, if he did open heart surgery surgery on me, I would trust him.

You know, he's a trustworthy figure.

And it seems like now all that's come out of this is you wanted to remain in Brexit, but one great song about Jeremy Corbyn that people seem to be singing, that your young people are singing at concerts.

If there was one benefit out of this, at least a piece of art has come out of it.

Would you agree, Auntie?

Well, I don't know whether, it's a bit early to say whether any benefits have come out of anything in British politics over the last couple of years.

It's a very interesting position now with Brexit.

As you say, it did appear to be something of an intergenerational prank, the Brexit votes.

And I mean, there is one suggestion that what we could do is just pretend that we're leaving the European Union for all the old people who really wanted it.

And, you know, just send them little newsletters saying, yeah, we're out now.

And they'll be happy.

Because, you know, politics is 99% psychological.

We know that.

Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, 537,000 Twitter followers.

Take that, Theresa, mate.

It's really not going well.

He kind of vaguely raised the prospect of the UK staying in.

And to me, this sounds like the ideal solution for both sides of the Brexit debate here in Britain, Anivab, because most people who are in favour of remaining are still, I think, essentially philosophically in favour of remaining, albeit they accept the result of the referendum and are...

you know, through gritted teeth, acknowledging that the will of the people, whatever the f ⁇ that is, has to be seen through.

Whereas most leavers are facing up to an aching void of not being able to blame Europe for absolutely fing everything from all bananas now having to be spherical and orange, or they might be oranges, but it's probably something to do with Brussels, to British employers undercutting their own workforces, to not being able to dunk witches in ponds anymore because of EU fishing quotas.

So

if we reverse this decision, not only will the remainers be happy, I think most leavers,

they will have their raison d'être back.

We just need to be in this permanent state of campaigning to leave the EU.

I think that is the equilibrium that we need in this nation.

Andy, you know, I think one of the fundamental problems is

a literate electorate voting base.

You know, you've given too much education to your people.

This is a problem.

And I'd I'd like to refer to a very specific local election at a town near where I was born, up in Darjeeling, which was actually a British cantonment town for a long time.

They had recent elections and a gentleman was campaigning on a mandate of infrastructure because he had built schools and hospitals and all of that.

And he was campaigning, and nobody was interested.

And his rival was not a politician, he was a local footballer.

And he came into that same crowd of 100,000 people, balanced a ball on his head, did his signature header, and won by 50,000 votes.

And I think

the fundamental problem is that your people can read and write.

And

that is what is getting in the way of all good decision-making.

Right.

I mean, that's, to be honest, still quite quite a long way ahead of what happened in America last November, I think.

Theresa May has said that in the negotiations, she would be raising important issues, including how Europe can work together to stop the spread of extremism online.

I mean,

if only there was some kind of supranational European organisation that we could be part of that would

help with these

things.

What the f have we done, Britain?

What the f have we done?

Tusk said

that

he said, I mean, he seems to be very keen on Britain staying in.

He said, Who knows?

You might say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Quoting John Lennon, of course.

I mean, he's not the only one.

He's got thousands of other dreamers doing all the pipework and the admin for him.

There's so much bureaucracy in Europe.

Even the dreams, even the dreams have bureaucracy behind them these days.

In other British politics news, we had the Queen's speech at the start of

each Parliament.

The Queen lays out the government's action, not her own words, of course, but the most exciting thing about it this year was that the Queen's Crown got its own wheels.

The Crown went in a separate car to Parliament.

I don't know, I've not noticed this before.

We have covered the charmingly anachronistic traditional nonsensicalisms of the Queen's speech and the the state opening of Parliament on this audio newspaper before.

But I've not noticed the Crown getting its...

I mean we are a nation which has nurses relying on food banks for foods.

We have thousands of people living on the streets, children going to school unfed

and we put a fing hat in a limousine.

Priorities Britain!

Priorities.

I mean why for a start?

Why is the Queen not wearing the hat?

I mean that is a great concern.

The Queen should I mean there are rumours that she ripped her neck muscle in rehearsals for her annual secret performance in the the cast of Dirty Dancing, the musical.

No one puts Lizzie in the corner.

And the Conservatives, they have to drop a lot of their manifesto pledges, including

their promise to have a new vote on fox hunting, on re-legalising fox hunting.

I'm very worried about this has been dropped now.

Worried about all these swarms of contraband foxes roaming the countryside unhunted.

Now the thin red line of aristocrats on horses with massive packs of dogs will not be holding them back anymore.

It's a deep, deep concern.

Well Andy, there is a history to this very quickly.

There is a history to this.

During the Indian summer, you know, you did move the entire capital to a hill station.

So I would imag I would imagine that the crown is part of that tradition.

You know, I mean, you move chairs and people and entire courts up to a hill station because it was, to be honest, really hot.

And it's not a benefit we have now because the public would shout and scream.

So I think that the crown deserving its own car, its own cushion and its own journey is only fair.

So I didn't know.

So we moved the whole capital to...

What was the hill station?

Well the town was called Shimla and I think

one fine day, well you moved the capital a couple of times because in 1911 we've talked about this on this podcast.

Calcutta was the capital and then I think that the things fair enough you said you know we don't like the Bengalis anymore so we're going to move it to Delhi.

It's quite central and and I think that the before you there were the Mughal emperors and

they were there for 500 years.

And you moved there, and it took 500 years for the British Governor General to figure out that they were right in the first place, that Delhi was quite central.

So I think after ruling the country for 200 years, they looked at the map for the first time to actually figure out what it is that they actually govern.

And then they moved to Delhi.

And then they found it really hot.

So they moved everybody up to a hill station.

And

every single piece of furniture, person, court document,

you know, know, the entire bureaucracy went up there.

And climate is a very good reason to move governments, you know.

I mean, the great Chengis Khan, I think, spent a lot of time marauding mostly because he just did not want to die in a Eurasian steppe with eight-month winters.

Bugle feature section now and prisons.

Now, this week's episode is part of a special Radiotopia-wide project welcoming a new show into the Radiotopia family.

The Ear Hustle podcast features stories of life in prison told and produced by those living it at San Quentin State Prison.

And in support of Ear Hustle, all Radiotopia shows have been releasing an episode in response to the theme Doing Time.

And here is the Bugles Doing Time Prisons feature section.

Now, since John Oliver left this show, we haven't had any other Bugle co-hosts who've done a 20-stretch in the slammer.

Anevab, have you ever spent a long time in jail?

Well, you know, I'm just going to answer that slightly differently.

There is very little difference between an actual prison and a small Mumbai apartment.

So even though I haven't,

the general living conditions of any artist in a city like this is, in fact, the architects often visit local prisons before they build our houses.

So I think that there is an aesthetic match in what we're looking at, Andy.

I mean, the common complaint with prisons in Britain is we all see it in the Tableau Press prisons are like five-star hotels and when you think about it and look at the statistics prisons are very much like five-star hotels in that they seem to be specifically designed to do everything in their power to make sure their guests come back for another stay because we have spectacular levels of re-offending in this country

the and yet whilst the prison population has gone up the number of prison officers has come down.

Now on the one hand you might think well, that is obviously f ⁇ ing stupid.

But on the other hand, you might think, uh,

uh,

yeah.

So I guess that the logic is to try to appeal to prisoners' British sense of fair play.

If you cut prison officers, cut police numbers as the government have been doing, then we rely on our British criminals having that innate British sense of British fair play that politicians bang on about while shamelessly benefiting from a massively unjust electoral system and giggling themselves about how much tax global corporations would have to pay if they made them pay it.

And the criminals, they want to challenge Anuvab.

They're not going to commit crime if there is no challenge.

So this is a visionary way of sorting

everything out.

It's really lovely and British, you know, how you look at the world.

It's very unique, you know, because just about as he's about to burgle a bank or a jewelry shop, he thinks,

what kind of burden am I placing on the state infrastructure by doing this?

He's looking at the larger picture.

And there is a fundamental assumption that this criminal understands the ways of the world and I think you're giving him a certain respect.

You're giving him that understanding of global geopolitics, socioeconomics.

This is a criminal who reads The Economist and understands the burden he will place on the state.

I have a slightly different question, Andy.

Apparently, from what I'm reading, Andy,

from what you're telling me, that prison is somehow associated with shame and

some sort of guilt in the Western world.

Here, you know, from what I've noticed from the people that have gone to prison for high corruption cases, it is actually a status symbol.

If you are anyone who's anyone in the power circles in India, politics or business, if you have not been to prison, you are probably not a contender.

And if you have not been arrested for anything below, say, a hundred million dollar corruption scam, we like to call them scams.

You are no one.

You are not a player.

You are nobody.

In fact, that's the shame.

If you live at home, that's shameful because you haven't achieved anything.

If you've got to prison, that's an achievement.

And there's a gentleman that you and I have talked about, Andy,

one of

the great Indian businessmen, you know, who found himself in prison because of a Ponzi scheme.

So this is Subrata Roy, who has

amassed a fortune of over, what, 50 billion,

is that dollars or rupees?

Let's go with both

and owns hotels around around the world and essentially

he has set up a full office

inside

The jail he is currently residing in to sell his hotels so basically

As you say, from inside a maximum security prison running a property empire.

This is sensational sensational.

This is absolutely correct, Andy.

In fact, there was a Reuters story which said the court has given him 15 days to sell his five-star hotels from jail.

And I think that he got bail.

I think now he's out on bail.

But when this was going on a few months ago,

he actually had

the gall to complain to the judges saying that his video conferencing facility was not strong enough and that

his calls with his investment bankers on Wall Street were dropping, which is why he could not sell the Plaza Hotel in New York.

And without that money being returned to investors, he would not get out of jail.

His other properties

were in Grovesner Square, which I believe is in your city.

So, if you are ever passing that area, I've been told it's a very posh area of London, Mayfair.

Please note that the negotiations for that real estate is currently taking place in a prison in India, inside a maximum security prison.

Discussions of its refurbishment, management, curtain cleanliness is going on inside a jail.

Well, I guess it's good, I know they always say you've got to make prisoners work so they can

get ready for life

back on the outside and surely running a massive hotel empire.

I mean that's better than sewing up mailbags or

making spoons.

Howard League for Penal Reform in this country is a great organisation that is trying to make our penal penal system, in layman's terms, grow the fk up.

And the director of campaigns at the Howard League said that reducing resources while allowing the prison population to grow unchecked has created a toxic cocktail of violence, death and human misery.

Now, violence, death and human misery, that is not a cocktail you want to drink on a night out, or specifically the kind of cocktail you want to drink on several hundred consecutive non-voluntary nights in.

In fact, I have that cocktail right here, the penal colada.

Oh my god, that needs a significant squeeze of lemon and a seriously distracting parasol.

Oh what the heck?

Give me another one, it's the only life I know.

I'll tell you what we need though, Anavab, to solve the global problem with prisons, and that is space prisons.

That's surely, I mean, I know it's been suggested in certain science fiction

shows and books, but good luck sure-shanking your way out of one of those, Tim Robbins.

There have already been some trial schemes.

Neil Armstrong, not actually an astronaut, he was a petty criminal, stole a granny from a nursing home as a Christmas gift for his wife.

Buzz Aldrin graffited eyeshadow and lipstick onto the George Washington on Mount Rushmore.

And Michael Collins, obviously, well, legally, different ways of looking at his actions in the struggle for Irish independence.

But anyway, they all got a 10-stretch on Moon Central Penitentiary, but broke out, busted out after less than a day.

And Collins, obviously in the getaway vehicle, zoomed them back to Earth.

More recently, Tim Peake, the British astronaut, was sent up for a six-month stretch on HMP International Space Station.

I can't remember what he got slammed for.

I think being scientific in charge of a rocket or something.

And since he got back, he has not gone on a single Bonnie and Clyde-style crime spree.

Clean as a whistle.

Got his life back on track.

Point-proof.

Your emails now.

This came in from Jamie Thompson,

who says, Dear Andy, I hope you're well.

I'm fine.

Thanks for that detail.

I'd like you to know that I went up to the hideaway in Streatham to buy some tickets for your fundraising thing.

That thing, let me flesh out the details, is a fundraising gig this coming Tuesday, the 27th, featuring me, Jeremy Hardy, Sophie Hagen, and Johnny and the Baptists.

Jamie continues, the lady in the box office said, Oh, you mean the event with Mark Zuckerberg?

I smiled and said, Yes.

Well, Well, that's great.

I'm now being mistaken for the founder of Facebook and one of the most successful entrepreneurs in the world.

I don't know if I'll just be flattered or insulted.

I mean, I have never overlooked the spread of hate speech on an internet platform that I

may have had control of.

I'm not saying Mark Zuckerberg has.

I'm just saying I haven't.

But

other than beginning with Zed,

I'm not sure there are many similarities between Zuckerberg and I in the way we have conducted our commercial careers.

But anyway,

do come to that gig.

It should be terrific on Tuesday night to raise money for my children's primary school, specifically to help disadvantaged children from the school go on the school camp.

That is Tuesday night at the wonderful Hideaway Club in Streatham.

We've overrun as ever.

But a quick word on the cricket, Anuvab.

India lost the final of the champions trophy to Pakistan after which 15 people were arrested for celebrate in India for celebrating Pakistan's victory on charges of sedition

sedition charges.

Now sedition is conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch.

I mean that shows how seriously cricket is taken in India that celebrating another team winning is seen to undermine the entire existence of India as a nation.

Well, you know, that plays right into our concept of fair play.

You know, that you can fairly support any side as long as you're willing to go to jail afterwards.

You know, that's sort of the worldview that we work with.

I don't know how it is in the West.

I don't know what sportsmanship means in the West, but to us it means as long as you're supporting us,

you have a sportsman spirit.

That's basically what that means.

I have a slightly different problem, and we were sort of really convinced that we would win because you know, you know, statistics, which I know that you're very famous for in cricket, you know, said that we were what the number one side, right, for the in this format of the game in Pakistan, were 40th out of eight playing nations, and

so therefore, we bought a lot of firecrackers.

As a nation, we bought a lot of firecrackers because we were certain by eight that evening we'd be winning.

And then, when we didn't, and we had this sort of you know, massive, you know, Hellenic tragedy, you know, on our hands,

a bunch of firecrackers just went off in some sort of existential crisis.

Well, I mean, that.

Because this was a nation uncertain of what to do with firecrackers.

And so it's the first time where there were firecrackers out of bewilderment than celebration.

Does a firecracker sound different when it is set off bewildered rather than happy?

There's a tinge of sadness, Andy.

There's a tinge of sadness.

Well, as you said, this was a hugely unexpected victory, particularly because early in the tournament, Pakistan, who'd come in as, you know, basically either the rubbishest or the second rubbishest team in the tournament.

And they got absolutely thrashed by India in their first game.

They looked likely tournament winners at that point, the same way that a baguette looks like a suitable vehicle for riding the Grand National.

But Pakistan cricket is one of the most gloriously baffling sporting phenomena in the universe.

They did not just turn their Titanic round on a sixpence.

They vaulted their Titanic clean over the iceberg in a triple twisting double pike back somersault into the open ocean to victory.

It was utterly sensational the way they thrashed India and England in the semi-final.

Let's not talk about that.

They totally obliterated India and England.

Let's stop going on about England.

They really, really hammered India.

And there was a run out in...

in the final.

And India were already losing and there was this spectacular run out which ended up with both batsmen at the same end, which for non-cricket aficionados listening to the bugle, is a bad thing.

A very bad thing.

He was 20 yards away from being where he was supposed to be.

And I cannot understand how an Indian batsman can ever be run out in cricket, Anuva, because the way I see it, if you've survived to adulthood crossing roads in India, you should never be run out in cricket.

You should know how to get from a place to another place about 20 yards in a short space of time without anything going wrong.

How can an Indian cricketer be run out if they have made it to the age of 20?

I think what happened by that point, Andy, is that we were already five down, right?

And the players themselves, so well paid, the wealthiest cricketing playing nation in the world, they were so confused at their own loss and perhaps a little scared that they were not running towards the other wicket, Andy.

They were running away from the stadium.

And like all our billionaires who seek refuge in London, they were hoping never to come out.

They were hoping to run into the city of London, never to be found, like so many other great Indian fugitives.

Well that brings us to the end of this week's bugle.

Next week we'll have full exclusive coverage of the first rugby union test match between the New Zealand All Blacks and the British and Irish Lions.

I mean it's going to be tough.

Anuvab.

I imagine you're not a massive rugby fan, but New Zealand have won 37 matches in a row in the stadium that the Lions are playing them in tomorrow morning as we record.

This,

as tasks go, to try and beat New Zealand in New Zealand, as like pogo sticking your way to the top of Mount Everest.

Not impossible, but very tricky indeed.

We'll have full reports exclusively on that next week.

Anivab, thanks very much once again for joining me from Mumbai.

Delight as ever to have you on the show.

I'll be back next week with Tom Ballard and a new Bugle co-host, Tiffany Stevenson.

The Bugle is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, made possible with great support from our founding sponsors, The Knight Foundation.

Until next time, Buglers, goodbye.

Hi Buglers, it's producer Chris here.

I just wanted to very quickly tell you about my new podcast, Mildly Informed, which is in podcast feeds and YouTube right now.

Quite simply, it's a show where me and my friend Richie review literally anything.

So please come join us wherever you get your podcasts right now.