TCB Presents: After The Break

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Speaker 1 It's the summer of 1997, and I've just finished a shift at the restaurant. I run home to smoke some really bad weed out of my beautiful three and a half-foot graphics glass bomb.

Speaker 1 When I'm firmly in my own universe, I go to the kitchen to prepare my sacrament, doughnuts, and a family-sized bag of lazy potato chips because you know, salty and sweet is a stoner's best treat.

Speaker 1 I run upstairs to flip on my 24-inch RCA color TV. In a pre-DVR universe, late-night basic cable was about as entertaining as it got.

Speaker 1 And I, a young, budding, mediocre comedy podcaster, was the master of this domain. I knew every channel, every television show, every late-night talk show host, and every late-night talk show guest.

Speaker 1 I didn't miss a moment of Court TV or MTV. But this night was different.
I saw her for the very first time. This woman.

Speaker 2 Who asked you to go out of town? The stupid young one or the married one? The married one. That's what I'm thought.
Don't go, you hear me?

Speaker 1 Talking to dead people in a fake Jamaican accent.

Speaker 3 Michael, you really got yourself into trouble on that one, Brethren.

Speaker 1 Her name was Miss Cleo. She wasn't the first TV psychic, but she's one of the most notorious.

Speaker 1 The company she worked for, PRN, they made millions and millions of dollars using the image of Miss Cleo to convince people to call and spend $3.99 a minute to get comforting words about their dead loved ones from an absolute stranger on the other end of a landline.

Speaker 1 It all ended in ruin, people got defrauded, and she almost went to jail. But Miss Cleo had laid the groundwork, bringing the ancient art of the psychic medium into the mainstream.

Speaker 1 And this was just the beginning because many followed and today, psychics on TV are a billion-dollar business. If you don't know about the booming world of TV psychics, either did I.

Speaker 3 I I got backup this time.

Speaker 1 I'm Brian Green. Let's find out together after the break.

Speaker 1 You make this rather snappy, won't you? I have some really heavy thinking to do before 10 o'clock.

Speaker 1 Hi, I'm Brian Green, creator and co-host of the Commercial Break podcast.

Speaker 1 For years, I've been cracking jokes with my best friend, riffing on the absurd, and trying to make sense of this weird little ball we're all spinning on, but through improv comedy.

Speaker 1 And man, do I love doing that. But sometimes the chaos isn't enough.
For me, some stories deserve a bit of a deeper dive.

Speaker 1 Some topics are just too fascinating, too ridiculous, or too important to skate past with just a punchline. That's why we're here after the break.

Speaker 1 Each week, I'll take one subject, polyamory, the failing movie business, Venezuela, TV psychics, the rise of hallucinogenic healing, or why people are obsessed with competitive geo-guessers and why maps.

Speaker 1 Yes, maps are so freaking controversial. We'll chew it up, spit it out, and break it down.
I promise you'll have to do no homework.

Speaker 1 You'll get a laugh or two, and I'll bring the voices and perspectives to give you an honest, funny, and unfiltered look at the strangest, most interesting, or most obsessive-worthy things the world is looking at today.

Speaker 1 If you like your comedy with a little bit of curiosity, or your curiosity with a bit more comedy, I'm here to scratch that itch. Let's find out together after the break.

Speaker 1 The notion of mediums speaking to the dead, remote viewing, or looking into the future, isn't new. People have wanted to speak to the dead since, I don't know, probably since people started dying.

Speaker 1 Who doesn't want to have one more conversation with that loved one that's passed on? Who doesn't want to know tomorrow night's lottery numbers? Who doesn't want the secrets to the afterlife?

Speaker 1 Who doesn't want to tell dead Uncle Bob he was really an asshole to everybody? I mean, I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but Bob was kind of a jerk off.

Speaker 1 Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Bob, Mediums, spiritualists, psychic quackery, and communicating with the afterlife has been going on forever. The idea of communicating with the dead isn't new.

Speaker 1 The ancient Greeks had oracles at Delphi. They were basically hotboxing themselves in volcanic fumes, and then they would ramble in riddles while kings hung on their every word.

Speaker 1 No knock on a good party, but it sounds like what you do at Burning Man if you happen to get stuck in somebody's RV during a sandstorm. Yeah, well, you know, that's just like uh

Speaker 1 your opinion, man. The Romans had augers, guys that would stare at birds' guts to predict the future.
Fast forward to the 19th century, and you get the Victorian spiritualist movement.

Speaker 1 Seances and Ouija boards, people in velvet curtains pretending to summon Aunt Edna from the afterlife. Famous frauds like the Fox sisters made bank, knocking on wood and claiming it was the spirits.

Speaker 1 Eventually, one of them admitted, yeah, it was just us cracking our toes. That's right.
Two sisters cracking their toes and claiming to speak with the dead.

Speaker 1 In 2025, they either have a show on A ⁇ E or a million-dollar Foot Finder account.

Speaker 1 Without belaboring the point, weird people have been saying weird shit for a long time, and us humans, we're willing to listen. Would I thought we were in the trust tree with in the nest, are we not?

Speaker 1 When we get to the 21st century, radio and TV gave psychics a stage. Gene Dixon in the 1960s claimed that she predicted JFK's assassination.

Speaker 1 Spoiler alert, she also predicted World War III would start in 1958. She was wrong, obviously, and off by about 73 years.
It's really going to start in 2025.

Speaker 1 Not exactly betting a thousand there, Gene. Hey, bada, bada, bada, bada, bada, so we need bada.

Speaker 1 It wasn't until the rise of 1-900 numbers and infomercials in the mid to late 80s that young enterprising scamsters found a new way to get money out of your pocket.

Speaker 4 Well, you may have seen the late night infomercials. Buy one, get one free, order now, time is running out, all those promises.

Speaker 1 While I found no evidence to give me the answer about who was the first 1-900 psychic, it was no surprise that PFN or the Psychic Friends Network, founded by Baltimore businessman Michael Lasky is one of the first and extremely successful pioneers in the psychic hotline business.

Speaker 2 When someone told me to call one of those imitation psychic clubs, I said, what are you talking about? There's only one true psychic service, the Psychic Friends Network.

Speaker 1 Michael Lasky was a New York adman who basically invented psychic infomercials. He co-founded that PFN or Psychic Friends Network in 1991 with Deion Warwick as the celebrity face.

Speaker 1 Today, you'll find out what Deion Warwick has to say about the Psychic Friends Network.

Speaker 5 I think that anyone watching this show can benefit from speaking to the psychic.

Speaker 1 I remember these ads running during the OJ trial. And now you're host of the Psychic Friends Network, Five Time Grammy Award winner, Miss Deion Welwick.

Speaker 1 Imagine being live in a time when OJ was on trial for murder and Deion Warwick was pitching you $3.99 per minute phone calls for fake psychic services. That's just what friends are for.

Speaker 1 That's what friends are for.

Speaker 1 Borwick promised that her friends could help you with love, money, and career advice, a time-honored tradition with the psychic group, by giving you nebulous and broad answers to life's most pressing questions.

Speaker 1 It would make you feel better temporarily, keeping you on the phone for an additional $3.99 a minute, but the broad answers usually served a second purpose in that you could never figure out if they were right or if they were wrong.

Speaker 6 According to my source, the end of the world will be on February 14th in the year 2016.

Speaker 1 Valentine's Day. Bummer.
At its peak, the Psychic Friends Network was pulling in over a million calls a month.

Speaker 1 And again, at $3.99 a minute, that's a lot of money to find out who your soulmate might be.

Speaker 1 And on these extremely expensive calls, it's not like the stranger on the other end of the phone was going to tell you John Jones from marketing is likely to be your husband.

Speaker 1 No, no, they were probably just good talkers, would run you around in circles, and then give you an answer like, I think they'll be tall. And while we're on the subject, a little piece of advice.

Speaker 1 Don't sleep on the short kings. I'm with you, short kings.
Listen, I'm six foot two, but I'm with you. I'm with you.

Speaker 1 But generation after generation, decade after decade, year after year, our ancestors continued to seek out psychic medium help.

Speaker 1 Through countless uncovered scams, zero positive scientific evidence, and no leading authority or organization to point to for legitimacy, the psychic craze continued into the advent of radio and eventually television.

Speaker 1 Our insatiable need for answers unknown continued unabated. And the late night infomercial explosion was about to turn the faucet of cash into a waterfall of riches.

Speaker 1 Enter Miss Cleo. Miss Cleo really is the face of the psychic craze.
Her name wasn't Miss Cleo at all. It was Yurie Dell Harris.
And she wasn't Jamaican.

Speaker 1 She grew up in Los Angeles, went to an arts high school, and was a playwright before she became a fake TV psychic. The accent? Totally made up.

Speaker 1 Though bad Jamaican accents were not unique to Miss Cleo, I will submit into evidence, Your Honor, the song Informa by Snow, the Canadian rapper, circa 1993.

Speaker 1 Four long years before Miss Cleo ever hit the television airways. Case closed.
Don't take the law into your own hands. You take them to court.

Speaker 1 When she moved to Florida in the late 1990s, she got involved with the Psychic Readers Network, a company run by Steven Federer and Peter Stoats. Not mystics, not psychics, not hippie-dippy types.

Speaker 1 Infomercial guys. Oh yeah, infomercial guys.
I mean, I know the average one lasts 30 to 60 seconds, but these guys go the full 30 minutes. That joke almost rights itself.

Speaker 1 They hooked up with Miss Cleo. They put her on TV, dressed her in bright colors, gave her a fake backstory, and boom, a star is truly born.

Speaker 2 Her voice is as familiar as her face, and her expert psychic advice is just a phone call away. Please welcome Shaman and Author Miss Cleo!

Speaker 1 At the height of her fame, Miss Cleo was literally everywhere. Her commercials ran non-stop.
Her catchphrase, Carl Minnow, became a pop culture joke.

Speaker 1 She was even parodied on other television shows like Mad TV. But behind the scenes, she wasn't a boss.
She was just the face, someone who promoted the network.

Speaker 1 The network made hundreds of millions of dollars, while Miss Cleo herself was reportedly paid very little and in financial trouble.

Speaker 1 When the FTC cracked down in 2002, the Psychic Readers Network was accused of deceptive advertising, aggressive billing practices, and straight-up fraud.

Speaker 1 Federer and Stoats settled for $500 million and forgiven customer dad. Miss Cleo, well, she didn't actually go to jail despite the rumors, but her career was certainly over and she came close.

Speaker 1 After all of the dust settled and all the spirits went back to wherever the spirits came from, nice going, kids. Uncovering these phony ghosts and their ghost ship is a job well done.

Speaker 1 She publicly came out as gay, did some voiceover work. She was even in Grand Theft Auto and spent her life doing smaller readings until her death in 2016 from colon cancer.

Speaker 1 So yeah, just to be clear, Ms. Cleo was not Jamaican, wasn't a millionaire, and wasn't running the scam.

Speaker 1 But she became the symbol of TV psychic culture, the one we all remember when we think of late night infomercial fraud.

Speaker 2 Truth is dimensional, my dears.

Speaker 1 It is not one-dimensional, it is multi-dimensional, and that is why the cards work.

Speaker 1 So after Miss Cleo went away and left a big hole in the teenage, I'm so high I can't see straight entertainment gap. Whole country back then was getting hot.

Speaker 1 You'd think America would have learned its lesson, right? Well, of course not. We're America.
We don't ever learn our lesson. We just moved psychics out of the infomercial and put them on prime time

Speaker 1 the 2000s was about to become the golden era of psychics on tv and as far as i can tell it hasn't stopped it's only getting worse first up let's talk about john edward he had a show called crossing over where the entire studio audience would show up and just watch him chat with their dead relatives just passing through see anything you like speaker here's a clip from one of the episodes he gets it completely wrong so what was that last november that i was that i was was that um june june he died june the 17th

Speaker 9 yeah i'm not i'm not feeling him that does not mean that he's not around you or that he's okay here's another clip of him getting it completely wrong she's making me feel like when she passes she passes either around or on a governmental holiday um or something that would be celebratory but for the country um my my father um I'm seeing the American flag.

Speaker 9 So when I see the flag.

Speaker 9 Yeah, when I see that, it lets me know that we're talking about about like either July 4th.

Speaker 10 September 11th.

Speaker 9 Yeah, it's July 4th, Veterans Day, Memorial Day. Did he pass in the September 11th?

Speaker 7 Yes.

Speaker 1 And none to belabor the point, but here's a third clip of John not doing so well.

Speaker 8 But I feel like I need to talk about the younger male, like the son figure who's passed.

Speaker 8 So I don't know if somebody lost their son or if there's a younger male that's passed, but I feel like the younger male has two father figures with him.

Speaker 8 That would be like he's with his dad and his father-in-law, or he's with his dad and his uncle, but there's two together. And I think there's an R name that they want me to attach this to.

Speaker 8 So, did anybody lose a younger male? Younger male to me would be like son, nephew, grandson, younger brother. That's what it feels like.

Speaker 8 I was gonna say, I still feel like I'm being pulled in front of me. You have a younger male that's passed?

Speaker 8 Um, I don't know if that's you, I don't know if I'm with you

Speaker 1 now. Let's talk about the minutiae of psychics just for a minute.

Speaker 1 If you've ever listened to my other podcast, The Commercial Break, then you know that Teresa Caputo and John are some of our favorite people to pile onto because what they're doing is basically a parlor trick.

Speaker 1 I don't have time for your magic tricks. Illusions, Dad.
You don't have time for my illusions. What's wrong with you? It's been done for generations and generations.

Speaker 1 And let me explain a little bit about how it goes. A cold reading, just like Mr.
Edwards used to do, goes like this. Take a group of people who are already apt to believe what you're selling.

Speaker 1 Put them in a room together. Give them some time to stew and to warm up.
Let their emotions charm.

Speaker 11 My name is Norma, and I'm from Sarasota, Florida. 2010 was

Speaker 11 so such a hard year for me. I lost my family and not being able to have the closure of saying goodbye has been a huge burden on me.

Speaker 1 Allow them space to share stories about their loved ones who have passed away or questions they want the psychics to answer.

Speaker 1 I believe that oftentimes there is a plant in that group of people that will listen and pass that information along to the psychic.

Speaker 1 In a TV studio, you can understand how this would be really easy to do. Once everybody is all lathered up with anticipation, bring out the celebrity psychic and let the shenanigans begin.

Speaker 1 And here's how it goes. I'll give you examples.
Start with an extremely broad question.

Speaker 8 I am being pulled into the section. Somebody passed in a car accident, and I feel like the accident that happened was not their fault, which means something had to hit them.

Speaker 8 Either they're in the passenger seat or something happened, but I need to say it, but it's in this section over here.

Speaker 8 I know that the month of May is connected, or the fifth of a month is important in some way in the family. And they're telling me to talk about Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, Tommy, Tommy.

Speaker 8 So there's got to be a T name either living or connected to this. So if this makes sense over here, you can raise your hand.

Speaker 1 Did your loved one ever breathe? Do you know anybody who ever took a breath? Does someone you know have a right foot? Does someone you know have a left foot?

Speaker 1 Does someone you know have a right and a left foot? The psychic then waits for cues from the audience. Someone to raise their hand, nod in agreement, or better yet, talk back.

Speaker 8 Somebody did pass in a vehicle accident? Yes. And it was not their fault from what I'm being shown, correct? No.
Okay, now, I don't know why, but they're showing me five.

Speaker 8 So the five to me would mean somebody's birthday or anniversary is in the fifth month. There's something about the fifth of a month for somebody else that they want me to connect with.

Speaker 8 And I feel like I need to talk about dad, dad, dad, dad. So is your biological father past?

Speaker 1 Yes. Okay.
That's a quote-unquote psychic hit. That's all that's needed.
Now the medium is off to the races.

Speaker 1 They can rapid-fire questions right at the person who is already in belief of the superpowers of the psychic.

Speaker 8 And even though 18 of 20 questions may be completely off base, it's the two that the psychic gets right that allows for positive resonation let me give you an example with John Edwards take a listen and then tell me to say either Maureen Marianne there's an M name where's the M connection to you either living or past I have a cousin by the name of Marianne Marianne is and Marianne's living yes so I need you to know that there's a J name like JM I'm getting JM so I want to say like Jennifer but Jennifer goes with Marie or her middle name is Marie or Jennifer Marie on the same level.

Speaker 8 But if your mom has passed and your dad has passed, and then I have this other father figure that we need to talk about.

Speaker 1 But Brian, you may ask, what happens if they get it completely wrong? What happens if the psychic is 100% off base? Well, that's a psychic fail, and it happens more often than you'd think.

Speaker 1 Take a listen to this example from television psychic James von Prague in the early 2000s. This might be the clearest example I have ever found of a psychic fail.

Speaker 10 Well, we're back with medium James Van Prague who has had us fascinated all morning about the the world of ghosts and the unknown and we're gonna throw it open to you with our studio audience now.

Speaker 10 Take it away and see what you can say.

Speaker 7 Okay sweetheart great. I'd like to start with this lady right here who's sitting right in the first row.

Speaker 7 I have a mother figure very strong coming around you okay and with the name of either Mary Margaret do you understand the name? Margaret Mary. Margaret Mary.
Okay Margaret Mary.

Speaker 7 And I got to tell you that I feel before she passes over though there's a lot of

Speaker 7 our hard time to walk or hard time to get up and get things going. Do you understand that? And I feel some arthritis, by the way.
There's a lot of arthritis, and there's a bone problem.

Speaker 7 There's also something with the back, so I don't know if she seems to sit and have a pillow with the back of her, or is that you? No. No, that doesn't make sense to you.

Speaker 7 Okay, and what are trouble with the legs? No. Okay, okay.

Speaker 7 Who has trouble with the legs now? Well, my father's had two hip replacements. Two hip replacements.
He cannot walk as well as he used to. Oh, no, he walks very well.
Okay, okay.

Speaker 7 Right. Was your mother buried? Yes.

Speaker 7 Because she's talking about being buried and about an awake or a funeral, rather. And she knows about it.
She was very surprised by it all. And who's Kathy or Kathy?

Speaker 7 Is there Catherine or Kathy? Kathy? Catherine or Kathy? I also know who's Catholic, but there's someone who's Catholic background.

Speaker 7 You're all. You all are.
Okay. So there was a Mass said for and she wants to thank you for a mass that was said.
And there are prayer cards that are said.

Speaker 7 There's a picture of Mother Mary somewhere around. Picture of Mother Mary, would you know about this? Lee knows about this.
Picture of Mother Mary.

Speaker 13 Catholics have Mother Mary around somewhere.

Speaker 7 Good, okay, well, I know.

Speaker 7 But of course, that was years ago.

Speaker 7 Let's do Ghosts.

Speaker 7 So I want to talk about something else with you, though. Music, music, music.
I don't know why about music. Did you not do music?

Speaker 7 Were you going to do music when you were younger and you stopped doing music? No. Okay, you never wanted to play the piano? No.
Okay, who was that wanted to play the piano? Or music? Don't know.

Speaker 7 Don't know.

Speaker 7 I want to talk about this lady here. Your husband's passed over? Or your father's passed over, rather?

Speaker 7 Father passed over. I don't know if he liked cars.
The whole thing about cars, but there's something about cars with him. I mean, told me about this, okay?

Speaker 7 I don't know if he just recently got a car, or there was talk about getting a car or changing a car. Are you a living or dead? Do you understand?

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 7 I also want you, there's something about the car here with your father. I don't know, but I'm talking about a car here.
I don't know what it means.

Speaker 7 If you're just getting a new car, he got a new car, there's something with that, okay? I gotta tell you that. I'm gonna come over here to this lady.
Are we almost close?

Speaker 10 Nearly there, just to see if you can feel anything.

Speaker 7 Your husband passed over, correct?

Speaker 1 James and Rams are so close, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. However, you will notice what James did there at the end of the clip.

Speaker 1 He moves on to the next person because while he may be 100% off base with the person he's focused on, his peripheral vision is keeping a keen eye for cues from someone else. Oh, I see you, Laura!

Speaker 1 I see you! One of the dirty little tricks of this whole con job is to move from person to person. Did your aunt Betty ever cook apple pie? No.

Speaker 1 While someone else in the audience recognizes that their aunt cooked a mean apple pie, they shake their head in agreement.

Speaker 1 John identifies and moves to the next person, leaving the first person in the dust. But the audience doesn't care.

Speaker 1 They guffaw in amazement that John found someone, one person out of 100, whose aunt cooked a mean apple pie. This isn't a psychic reading.
This is a guessing game.

Speaker 1 And done correctly, it looks pretty impressive.

Speaker 8 I see smoke and fire, so I know that there's some level of that having to do with their passing or having to do with the connection around their passing.

Speaker 8 And I don't know if this was done because they wanted to get rid of evidence or if they wanted to get rid of something on that level. And is somebody now pregnant?

Speaker 13 The person who

Speaker 13 died was.

Speaker 8 So the person who passed was pregnant? Yes. Okay.

Speaker 1 We've just dipped our toe into the psychic waters. Coming up, I'll talk about the worst of the worst, the loudest and the proudest.
And I'll give you my take on all of it after the break.

Speaker 1 As we take a short break, I wanted to share with you that I'm super excited to make this podcast collaborative in any way possible.

Speaker 1 If you have an idea for a future topic, story, event, or person you'd like me to cover, let me know by emailing me afterthebreakpod at gmail.com. That's afterthebreakpod at gmail.com.

Speaker 1 You can also text me at 212-433-3822. That's 212-433-3822.
Let me know your thoughts and ideas.

Speaker 1 Maybe a dark secret, something you've always wanted to dig into a bit more, or something that just really cranks your wheel.

Speaker 1 And as we get into future episodes, I'd love to bring people on to share their own personal experiences with a particular topic, event, or person. As they say in the biz, let's get some synergy going.

Speaker 1 And I hope you don't mind. I'm putting a few commercials in after the break so I can cover a few of the costs associated with making it.
Even people who fuck off for a living gotta get paid.

Speaker 1 Let's listen to those sponsors and we'll get back to to it after the break.

Speaker 1 This episode is sponsored by our longtime sponsor, Squarespace. I am working on a new project, Information TBD.
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Speaker 1 It's very hush-hush around here because, you know, podcast secrets are a thing.

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Speaker 1 And thank you to Squarespace for being a sponsor of the commercial break.

Speaker 14 What's up, guys? It's Candace Dillard Bassett, former Real Housewife of Potomac.

Speaker 15 And I'm Michael Arsino, author of the New York Times bestseller, I Can't Date Jesus. And this is Undomesticated, the podcast where we aren't just saying the quiet parts out loud.

Speaker 14 We're putting it all on the kitchen table and inviting you to the function. If you're ready for some bold takes and a little bit of chaos, welcome to Undomesticated.

Speaker 14 Follow and listen to Undomesticated, available wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1 And now we turn our focus to the darker side of television psychics. Her name is Sylvia Brown, and she is the worst of the worst.

Speaker 3 Four months after Sean disappeared, the Akers appeared on the Montel Williams show with self-proclaimed psychic Sylvia Brown.

Speaker 3 Brown told the distraught parents that Sean was dead and told them in great detail where to search for his body.

Speaker 1 The guy was

Speaker 1 dark-skinned,

Speaker 1 although he wasn't black. He was more Hispanic looking.

Speaker 1 Had

Speaker 1 real long dark hair.

Speaker 1 And strange enough, Hispanic, but he had dreadlocks.

Speaker 3 Then Sylvia Brown confirmed their their worst fears.

Speaker 1 Is he still with us?

Speaker 3 Thankfully, Sean Hornbeck was found last week alive and well. His alleged abductor, Michael Devlin, is not Hispanic, and he didn't have dreadlocks at the time of the abduction.

Speaker 3 But she was terribly wrong about the most important detail of all.

Speaker 1 Hearing that was one of the hardest things we ever had to hear. She was the queen of daytime psychic drama.

Speaker 1 She would tell distraught parents parents whether or not their missing child was alive or dead.

Speaker 1 This reaches beyond prognostication, gentle and broad questions to make you believe that someone's talking to your loved one who has passed away.

Speaker 1 And this is certainly not calling a psychic friend's hotline to figure out whether or not that blonde bartender at your local pub is ever going to give you a hand shandy in the back of your Honda Accord.

Speaker 1 Oh, no, no, no, no. This is reaching out into reality and ripping the literal hearts out of terrified, traumatized human beings.
Just imagine for a minute that you have children, even if you don't.

Speaker 1 And the worst imaginable thing happens. They go missing.
You have no idea where they are. You have no conclusion.
You toss, you turn, you bang your head against every wall.

Speaker 1 But then you flip on Montel Williams, see Sylvia Brown with her stringy blonde hair and job of the hut posture, and she's telling other parents of missing children with with confidence where their missing child is, what happened to their missing child, and whether or not their missing child would be found alive or dead.

Speaker 1 Was he abducted when you say picked up? Yeah, abducted, yeah. He was grabbed.
Grabbed.

Speaker 1 Is there any better description of the vehicle other than just a blue sedan? The vehicle is a blue sedan, and I think it's a Chevrolet.

Speaker 1 But here's the problem: while Montelle Williams played tiddlywinks with Sylvia Brown, riding those ratings all the way to being a millionaire, the damage was being done because she was usually 100%

Speaker 1 incorrect. By the way, we've asked Montel Williams to respond to the controversy about the reading Sylvia Brown did on his TV show.
He had no comment. He also took a pass on appearing on this program.

Speaker 1 Famously, she told the mother of Amanda Berry, a kidnapped teenager, that her daughter was dead. And surprise, surprise, and the great kind of surprise, 10 years later, Amanda Berry was found alive.

Speaker 1 She's gone, honey.

Speaker 17 Do you know where she's at?

Speaker 1 In the house or under the house? Joseph famously got involved in the Natalie Holloway case and was wrong about that also. But Montel kept booking her.

Speaker 1 The rating stayed solid, and some people clung to her predictions like they were gospel.

Speaker 1 In every story, there is the anti-hero.

Speaker 1 Vocabulary.com describes an anti-hero as someone who's often a little villainous, traditionally the protagonist, a main character, and a focus of a story where that anti-hero is someone good, noble, and brave.

Speaker 1 I'd love to tell you I have an anti-hero for this particular narrative, but I don't. However, I do have an anti-anti-hero, and she is one of my favorite muses, Teresa Caputo.

Speaker 1 You know the one, this lady.

Speaker 18 Like, it's nothing special, like, my head isn't gonna spin around 10 times or anything.

Speaker 1 Teresa, or Teresa as she likes to call herself, was born June 10th, 1966, outside of New York in a place called Hicksville. That's on Long Island.

Speaker 19 I never never thought in my wildest dreams that I would tell anybody in this house to stop tanting.

Speaker 1 She worked as a secretary and an office manager in her family's oil business before becoming a full-time medium.

Speaker 1 She claims that she started sensing spirits at age four and that those around her always knew that the spirits were coming through her and talking to her.

Speaker 20 And you know, my mom would always be like, oh, that's nice, that's lovely. And no one really even made a big deal about the things I would say or do.

Speaker 1 While I certainly have some early memories, I don't know how many people actually remember much from age four.

Speaker 1 To give it the benefit of the doubt, if I was seeing or hearing ghosts, well, then maybe my memory would be jogged.

Speaker 1 But the strange thing about Teresa is that she didn't start giving professional readings or coming out with this quote-unquote gift until well into adulthood.

Speaker 5 I just would just see things and feel things and sense things that I didn't realize not everybody else was. I mean, I actually thought it was normal.

Speaker 5 I thought everyone sensed and felt the same things that I did.

Speaker 1 Teresa says that in her 20s, she started having severe anxiety. The doctors couldn't explain it because of course the doctors can never explain it.
God forbid we get science involved.

Speaker 1 It's time for Mr. Science.
Until one day, when a spiritual healer told her that what she was experiencing wasn't anxiety at all, but spirit energy trying to come through.

Speaker 1 And if you hear the word spirit one time during a Teresa Caputo appearance, you're gonna hear it 700 times. It is literally her favorite word.
Like literally is literally my favorite word.

Speaker 19 I literally died when you told me that joke.

Speaker 1 Between the ages of 20 and 23, she started working with a spiritual teacher named Pat Longo. Pat was also from Long Island.
So that's Pat Longo from Long Island, just in case you're keeping track.

Speaker 22 Long Island people like to drink coffee, shop at the mall, walk their dog, and swim in the water.

Speaker 1 Longo taught her that meditation and visualization exercises will help her channel and deliver the messages rather than just feeling overwhelmed.

Speaker 1 She often cites this mentorship as the moment she turned from being sensitive into calling herself a medium. I'm sensitive.
Seriously, I'm a sensitive dude.

Speaker 1 But when my wife tells me that an episode of TCB ain't funny, I do what any husband would immediately do: I get defensive, tell my wife she doesn't know what's funny, and that she doesn't have to listen to my podcast anymore if she doesn't want to.

Speaker 1 I then immediately regret my emotional outburst and apologize to my wife in the morning. I wanted to publicly apologize to my wife for cheating on her in her dreams.

Speaker 1 But I've never once had an emotional boo-boo that made me believe I was being contacted by the afterlife. My sensitivities are not a reason to call Peter Vankman.

Speaker 1 The Ghostbusters aren't going to save me from my own self.

Speaker 22 Hello, Ghostbusters.

Speaker 22 Yes, of course they're serious.

Speaker 1 After a couple years in the probably unpaid mentorship with Pat Longo from Long Island, Teresa begins practicing on family and friends.

Speaker 1 She gives informal readings at home, and the word spreads in the community.

Speaker 1 Soon, she's building a small business and doing private sessions, as one would do, if they were, in fact, the eighth wonder of the world. I can't even tell you.

Speaker 5 I don't even remember what happened a half hour ago.

Speaker 1 And this is where I get a little bit confused about most of these psychic healers. They will not put themselves up for additional scrutiny, not scientifically, not by critics or skeptics.

Speaker 1 They very rarely go into a hostile environment, and they almost always know the mark.

Speaker 6 I'd rather not discuss what I'm doing.

Speaker 1 While it's true that Teresa had her brain scanned for an episode of the Dr. Oz Show, The Dr.

Speaker 1 Oz Show is not a trusted source of scientific data, nor did they seem to really come to any kind of conclusion, except that when Teresa was doing a reading, her frontal lobe got activated.

Speaker 5 My brain just works differently. And you know what?

Speaker 1 I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1 Same part of your brain that gets activated when you're full of shit.

Speaker 1 Before TLC came calling, she worked in her family oil company's business while she was doing psychic readings on the side. Teresa does not have a down-on-her-luck story.
She comes from means.

Speaker 1 Teresa has been afforded the opportunity to turn this parlor trick into a slick professional operation. And by her 30s and 40s, she she was a full-time medium.

Speaker 1 I think part of the reason why Teresa connects so well with the audience is that kind of yakle doodle, local yoga, Long Island accent mixed with the loud suburban mom persona. Shut up!

Speaker 5 I see it! It's a mimosa!

Speaker 1 Unlike Miss Cleo, Teresa Caputo came to television with an established community of people who already believed everything she was saying. In 2011, TLC launched Long Island Medium.

Speaker 1 To say the show was a hit would be an understatement.

Speaker 13 Teresa Caputo is the star of the hit reality TV show Long Island Medium and she has a very special skill, she says. She speaks with dead people.

Speaker 1 Even though I know this will get blocked on YouTube because all my Teresa Caputo videos do, I'll play a little clip from one of those early episodes.

Speaker 5 Okay, want to talk about who passed from the chest? Because I'm there laboring my breathing. My husband.
So the way that you heal and the way that you grieve are going to be different.

Speaker 5 He said, from the moment I I saw you, I knew that we were going to be together.

Speaker 1 Teresa does readings for clients, friends, and strangers she would approach in public places. Her show's format mixed her big, brash, Long Island personality.
Hair teased to the heavens.

Speaker 24 We were planning to talk about your hair, and I just, it's like,

Speaker 24 I can't not talk about your hair.

Speaker 1 Acrylic nails as long as they can be, loud family dynamic. She mixed all of that with emotional psychic readings.

Speaker 5 I said to him, I I said, Brian, I said, why are we talking about that?

Speaker 5 And he said, I want always to remind my parents of

Speaker 5 all of the things that I did accomplish.

Speaker 1 It drew in millions of viewers. Teresa wasn't like a mystical crystal ball psychic.
She was just an everyday Long Island mom with giant hair, an obnoxious laugh, and a funny family.

Speaker 1 This was part reality, part shenanigans, part sitting down with someone who seemed empathetic to your recent loss and simply telling you that everything was going to be okay.

Speaker 5 So you know that there was nothing that you could have done to have prevented his departure.

Speaker 1 The episodes always delivered a tearful reunion as she would deliver some message from the other side. Viewers who wanted to believe found that style approachable and relatable.

Speaker 5 Because I look at you and you look like a nice young man, happy, you're smiling.

Speaker 1 I've noticed with almost every single Teresa video i've watched and man have i dug in my co-host on the other podcast thinks i'm a little bit obsessed and i might be obsessed and a little bit confused because in all that tape i never once heard anybody give a message from the other side that was negative maybe that's just the way it is maybe when we die and our spirits are floating around teresa caputo and flying in and out of that huge wig of hers we got nothing to worry about why be upset but the messages are always reassuring everything's gonna be all right.

Speaker 1 You didn't do it. It's not your fault.
Don't blame yourself. Live your life to the fullest.
I love you. I'm always here for you.

Speaker 1 When you get up from bed real fast and you see those spots in your eyes, that's me. It's as if a good friend came over, patted you on the back, and told you exactly what you wanted to hear.

Speaker 1 And in that sense, if we just look at it from that perspective, I'm not sure Teresa's doing any real damage to people, except for this.

Speaker 1 If you're really torn up by the passing of someone that you loved or were close to or cared about, and you're having a hard time with the grieving process, and Teresa comes whirling into your life, and all this sudden you're talking to that person through this woman who seems to know a lot, too much about you and them and what happened.

Speaker 1 And then she gives you all these words of comfort. I have to believe that a lot of people really would like to keep that going.
They would start to wonder themselves, why can't I do that?

Speaker 1 Why aren't they talking to me directly?

Speaker 1 They would be looking for signs and signals all over the place, and I can only imagine that Teresa has had her fair share of people that pursue her with great fervor to hear more from their loved ones.

Speaker 1 Teresa follows a lot of the same playbook that we've talked about. Cold readings are something I've realized may not necessarily be Teresa's cup of tea.

Speaker 1 Even though she sells out arenas and does this all the time on talk shows and daytime TV, I feel like Teresa's a lot more missed than she ever is hit.

Speaker 1 But because of Teresa's loud and brash style, she rolls over people.

Speaker 1 If she doesn't like the reaction she's getting, she moves on to the next person or talks directly over you, often using humor in moments where she's failing.

Speaker 1 Take a listen to this example from the Anderson Cooper appearance, where she's doing a cold reading and clearly the audience is not with her. They're not vibing.
They're not feeling it.

Speaker 1 She's saying stuff and no one's connecting. with her.

Speaker 3 So, Teresa, you've been reading a lot of people and as we went away, you said there was somebody else you were reading something else.

Speaker 5 Somebody lost a spouse newly, and someone also lost a sister, and someone is also wearing the mother or grandmother's religious articles, whether if it's

Speaker 1 like

Speaker 5 a miraculous medal, a cross, rosary beads, or they brought them with them. Who lost the spouse? I think I'm right.
I'm right here. Is your wife departed?

Speaker 5 Yes. Your wife has departed?

Speaker 5 Okay, because she just, she sat next to you, but she said, just sit down, just sit down. Would that be her personality to tell you just, you know, maybe don't speak up yet quite so much.

Speaker 5 Is that her wedding ring?

Speaker 16 No, it's my mother's wedding.

Speaker 5 Oh, which your mom? Oh, because I heard some. The wedding ring.
And that's your mom's wedding ring?

Speaker 16 Yes, it is. This is my wife's wedding ring here.

Speaker 5 Oh, you have the wedding ring. But where is the chair? Why do I keep getting the thing with the chair? Do you still have her chair? No.
Or did she have an issue with her legs prior to her passing?

Speaker 16 No, she had her gall.

Speaker 5 Who had the issue with the legs?

Speaker 1 Therese has had multiple shows over the years.

Speaker 1 The most recent iteration is her just riding around on a tour bus, stopping randomly and walking in somewhere, and all of a sudden the spirits are calling to her. Hello, who is calling me?

Speaker 1 One of the things that has always amazed me about Teresa's ability, quote unquote, is that she can have a full-blown conversation with the person standing in front of her, while also having a full-blown conversation or two, or three, or four, with the spirits behind her.

Speaker 1 She often claims that the spirits never physically move her and then will turn around and claim that the spirits are physically moving her.

Speaker 18 But a presence.

Speaker 5 See for me coldness is a presence of spirits.

Speaker 1 She often claims she won't allow the spirits to give her any kind of negative details around this or that and then she'll share negative details around this or that.

Speaker 1 She has said before in the past she can't see the spirits but you'll notice in just the few clips that I've played she claims she's seeing the spirits.

Speaker 5 They had me stand at a casket and I saw someone viewed and I'm viewing someone's physical body, and they said, Can you believe that this is how I was laid to rest?

Speaker 1 She's a walking oxymoron.

Speaker 1 Says one thing, then says another, does one thing, then does another. Whatever fits the moment, whatever gets the job done, whatever makes you believe that she should be believed.

Speaker 1 Also, and this is pure speculation on my part. I have no proof.
This is allegedly. It's only a gut feeling that I have.
Some common sense. I'm using some practical, logical thinking skills here.

Speaker 1 Use your head. Why is it for most of Teresa's career that she has a ridiculous head of hair that happens to cover her ears? It's time to tackle one of the biggest hair villains of all time.

Speaker 1 Now, I'm sure she's been on daytime shows or television or whatever it is where she's got to put on an earpiece.

Speaker 1 And it's likely that someone in the production crew, not her team, has had to do that for her or has wanted to do that for her.

Speaker 1 But I have always had a sneaking suspicion that Teresa may have her own earpieces and that her own staff may be working hard behind the scenes to fill her in on specific information that she can use with specific people in the crowd.

Speaker 1 A plant, a second set of eyes or ears to watch the crowd for indications of believers. Why not use 21st century technology to keep the parlor trick going?

Speaker 8 What do you know about science? I know a little.

Speaker 1 I can work something to show you.

Speaker 1 Additionally, in some of these shows where she shows up randomly to an office or a hair appointment or the grocery store or a food truck on the side of the road and starts doing a cold reading with a seemingly skeptical human being and all the sudden she knows a bunch of detailed information about them or their loved one who's passed away, why do you think that might be?

Speaker 1 Because no television show and the history of TLC or most major cable networks or any network for that matter would allow a production company to go rawdogging it without knowing who they're filming first.

Speaker 1 Who are you? I am the creator of a television show that gives hope and joy and inspiration to millions. Basic information, name, address, social security number, driver's license.

Speaker 1 But it's likely it's much more in-depth than that.

Speaker 1 And it's also likely that production crew, staff, or people who scout locations ahead of time are finding people for Teresa to talk to when she arrives.

Speaker 1 To think that she wouldn't be prepped with some information ahead of time is just foolishness. Hello, stupid.
Yeah, hello, stupid. Now I understand.

Speaker 1 Hey, Brian, it's a reality show and all of that shit is manufactured.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that may be all well, fine, and good for some of us, but recent polling and research in America, these United States of America, show that in 2023 and 2024, when asked, a growing amount of people had more trust in a psychic medium than they did in a licensed therapist to help them out with life's everyday problems.

Speaker 1 People are increasingly ditching organized religion, instead spending billions on other spiritual trends, like talking to the dead through people who call themselves media.

Speaker 1 Here's a stat that I think will put a pretty little bow on why this makes a perfect first episode of After the Break and why I'm personally so fascinated in the topic.

Speaker 1 And it absolutely floored me when I figured it out.

Speaker 1 In the year of Our Lord 2022, Americans spent almost $2.3 billion on the psychic services industry, with 338 million of that being spent on telephone psychic services.

Speaker 1 And if you're as ignorant as I am and made the assumption that the people using these services are lower on the socioeconomic ladder, you would be wrong.

Speaker 1 These are not grandmas in the Appalachians who live in shacks and have fixed incomes. I'm sure they use the services also.
Stupid ice motherfucker.

Speaker 1 The majority of users are under the age of 30 years old. 24% of 18 to 25-year-olds say they consult tarot cards annually.
51% of teenagers say they do that. I get that.

Speaker 1 When I was a teenager, I believed in some hokey shit. Goth was the roux of the day when I was a kid.

Speaker 1 And we would light some candles and listen to portised and have some tarot readings before we had sloppy teenage sex. I'm a virgin.
Sweet. I like that.

Speaker 1 Women are consulting psychics more than men by two to one. Over 88% of them have a college education, and the median income is well over $50,000.

Speaker 1 This may have to do with the fact that our society in general is more secular and less religious, or it may have to do with the fact that it's just a tough time to be a human being.

Speaker 1 And any little bit of inside information or any connection to the other side gives us some comfort when we're staring down certain doom. What's the matter?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 it's all over. I wish I had the answer as to why psychics are so incredibly popular.
But when I consulted my psychic, she didn't have the answers either. Sir, I'll beg, don't try to do comedy.

Speaker 1 It's not in your blood. You may not believe in psychics, but it's highly likely if you go to the coffee shop and there are 20 people, seven of them do.
Not only believe in them, probably use them.

Speaker 1 I have a lot of thoughts on this TV psychic and psychic narrative, and I'll give all of it to you after the break.

Speaker 1 Hey, thanks for joining me as we roll out these first couple episodes of After the Break. It'd be a missed opportunity if I also didn't mention my other podcast, The Commercial Break.

Speaker 1 The Commercial Break, or TCB, releases new episodes every Tuesday through Friday, and most Tuesdays we interview celebrities on our TCB infomercial series.

Speaker 1 Bringing it back to After the Break, I would love to hear your thoughts, ideas, or collaboration requests for this podcast. Text me 212-433-3822.
That's 212-433-3822.

Speaker 1 Let me know any ideas you have for the show or any weird things you're into that I can focus on.

Speaker 1 Make sure you follow and subscribe on the podcast player of your choice and look out for future episodes on YouTube. As I've mentioned, I'm putting a few commercials in this show.

Speaker 1 If there's ever a special promo code or discount that you can use to let those sponsors know you heard it here, that's the biggest gift you can give any podcaster making a few bucks on advertising.

Speaker 1 Let's listen to those sponsors and then we'll get back to this episode after the break.

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Speaker 1 And now we come to the third act, a purely selfish exercise in hearing my own perspective. I do this not to try and convince you, but to share where I'm coming from.
And let's start with Teresa.

Speaker 1 When we see Teresa on TV, having fun and all the shits and giggles and all the tears and all the laughs and all the loud family bullshit that plays into the mythology of Teresa Caputo being some magic carpet rider through the afterlife, we're missing a little bit of a bigger point.

Speaker 1 People are trusting psychics with their mental health. They're trying to get clarity and answers from supposed clairvoyants and psychics.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

Speaker 1 As a matter of fact, let me be clear about my position because you probably think that I am an ultimate skeptic and a pessimist when it comes to any of this stuff. You'd be wrong.

Speaker 1 I actually do believe that energy cannot be killed, only dissipated and moved somewhere else. I think that somewhere else, maybe in alternative universes.

Speaker 1 Maybe when we leave this form, we can move in and out of realities.

Speaker 1 Maybe it's even possible, like in one of my favorite movies, Interstellar, that we can break the bonds of time and space, give people messages by throwing books at them. Don't go, don't go, you idiot.

Speaker 1 Don't go! But unfortunately, there is very little scientific research to support any of this. And without it, I'll stick with what I know.
And here's what I know.

Speaker 1 If in fact, there is a person on this earth who can communicate with our dearly departed, they are either the best kept secret ever for really good reasons, or they would be the most famous person on earth for really good reasons.

Speaker 1 Teresa Caputo, Sylvia Brown, Miss Cleo, John Edwards, and all the rest never gave themselves to the science of this. That's okay.
It's their lives. They can choose what they want to do.

Speaker 1 If you want to use the greatest gift ever given to a human being to visit every shitty daytime talk show ever and try and convince a bunch of people you can talk to their dead grandma, cool.

Speaker 1 If you want to use this immense present the universe has given you to fill indoor hockey arenas with believers and sell then books and online courses to make yourself independently wealthy.

Speaker 1 I'm a capitalist. I can go along with that.
But I just wish if there was an ounce of truth to any of this, that it would be taken with the degree of seriousness it seems to warrant.

Speaker 1 Why not take Teresa Caputo and truly study the phenomenon? So then we, as mere mortals, can get the benefit of the research.

Speaker 1 Maybe there's something that Teresa is doing that we can all do ourselves to tap into this line of communication. Maybe we just need to know a little bit more about it.

Speaker 1 Maybe Sylvia Brown could jump from alternate universe to alternate universe and Natalie Holloway is really alive in her alternate universe. Let's study it and figure it out.

Speaker 1 Maybe Miss Cleo had a fantastic recipe for jerk chicken and every time she ate it, that incredible Jamaican accent came out. Wonderful.

Speaker 1 Let's sell it to KFC so we can all be the beneficiaries of that wonderful national dish of a country I love very much, Jamaica. But nay, my friends, we do not live in this alternate universe.

Speaker 1 We live in the other universe where everyone's looking to make a quick buck. Anybody will say anything to anybody to part them with the five dollars they've got in their hand.

Speaker 1 And an online reading from a psychic medium is apparently much more valuable than 90 minutes with a licensed therapy who's at least using some science to try and help you cope with the love and the loss that inevitably comes from taking a spin in this particular timeline.

Speaker 1 And I know there's a lot of you that will disagree with me. There's a lot of you that will say, hey, I like it.
I enjoy it. I do it.
It's fun. I've got lots of friends that believe in this stuff.

Speaker 1 I dated someone one time who kind of claimed to be a medium. While she didn't get a lot of stuff 100% right, there were some things that she said that became remarkably close to true.

Speaker 1 It certainly made me believe that we can flex our own psychic abilities in certain circumstances and situations, like when we're under an extreme amount of duress or an extreme ecstasy or joy, or when we're really fucking high on ayahuasca.

Speaker 1 I'm here for it. Give me the experience.
Show me the proof. Tell me how I can do it or tell me how you do it.
And this skeptic is ready to turn believer.

Speaker 1 Because at the end of the day, there are a few people that I'd like to talk to also. I'd love to pick the brain of George Carlin, have tea with Dr.

Speaker 1 Wayne Dyer, take a walk around the park with MLK Jr., or get really fucking high with Mitch Hedberg.

Speaker 1 But until one of those ghosts that keep piggyfronting Teresa Caputo pulls that wig right off of her head during a live taping of the Kelly Clarkson show, I'm just not buying what the TV psychics are selling.

Speaker 1 Now, before I leave you,

Speaker 1 because I'm cute like that,

Speaker 1 I want to wrap this all up by bringing it back to the beginning.

Speaker 1 When we talked about Psychic Friends Network and Miss Cleo and Dion Warwick and the billion-dollar pay-by-minute phone industry that started this modern psychic craze, it would be easy to think that that's all behind us, that the scamsters and con artists taking people for $3.99 a minute have long been put in their their place and now it's just mindless prime time entertainment and live tours at half-empty arenas.

Speaker 1 You're wrong. Take a listen to this.
Feel like you're going nowhere? Unable to move forwards in life?

Speaker 1 Or in love?

Speaker 1 Talk to California Psychics.

Speaker 1 Our trusted psychics can give you the guidance you need. to see things clearly.

Speaker 1 Our guarantee, if it's not not life-changing, it's free. You might have even heard one of these commercials inside of this show.

Speaker 1 They're spending millions and millions to get into your pocket and make billions and billions answering the questions we all so desperately need answered.

Speaker 1 I even thought about calling one of those psychics and putting that tape here in the episode. But all I could hear when I thought about making that phone call was my dad's angry voice, angry.

Speaker 1 at a teenage boy who had called Miss Cleo and spent almost $300 listening to the psychic on the other end of the telephone tell me my future wife was going to be tall.

Speaker 1 And guess what?

Speaker 1 She is.

Speaker 1 I'm Brian Green. Join me next time after the break.

Speaker 1 Now, wasn't that an interesting way to start a new podcast? It's a topic I have been wanting to tackle for a very long time in depth.

Speaker 1 And if you want a more sassy or funny look at this particular topic, make sure to tune in to The Commercial Break, which publishes every Tuesday through Thursday.

Speaker 1 After the Break, we'll publish a new episode every Monday.

Speaker 1 If you're listening to this episode on the Commercial Break RSS feed or the channel for the Commercial Break, make sure to click on the link in the show notes and go subscribe to After the Break as they are two different shows.

Speaker 1 And at some point soon, you will only be able to get After the Break on its own channel or RSS feed as it's technically referred to. Please do get involved in this podcast, 212-433-3822.

Speaker 1 Text me, ideas for future episodes, or if you think a personal story you have is interesting enough to carry an entire episode, well, hell yeah, give it to me.

Speaker 1 I'd like to thank my co-host, Kristen Joy Hoadley on the Commercial Break, for all of the love and support on this new venture.

Speaker 1 Our executive producer Astrid, our executive producer Tina, our moral support Gustavo and Allison, and all those, and all those who put up with me when I become a real asshole searching for perfection in my own mediocrity.

Speaker 1 What are we going to tackle next? You're just going to have to tune in to see after the break.

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