Which Lords Work?

Hey dream listeners, there's now an ad-free version of the dream that you can subscribe to, the dream plus at thedream.supercast.com.

Five bucks a month gets you every single episode of this show with zero ads, which you love and I love.

And we're hoping that this will help us pay the bills and the main goal being that we can keep making this show.

Go to thedream.supercast.com and subscribe.

To make it easy, we have put the link in the show description.

Just look down underneath this episode.

It says thedream.supercast.com and just click on that easy peasy you're gonna get a lot of extra stuff too we're working on all that another thing you need to do please subscribe to our instagram it's the dream x the letter x jane marie see you over there

it's third down

did you see the game last night of course you did because you used Instacart to do your grocery restock.

Plus, you got snacks for the game, all without missing a single play.

And that's that's on multitasking.

So we're not saying that Instacart is a hack for game day, but it might be the ultimate play this football season.

Enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders.

Service fees apply.

For three orders in 14 days.

Excludes restaurants.

Instacart, we're here.

From building a business to building an ecosystem to building a legacy.

Overcome tomorrow's challenges together with our industrial partner ecosystem.

Transform the everyday with Siemens.

I'm Jane Marie and this is the dream.

We are so lucky to have been around long enough as a show to know all the major players in the anti-MLM, anti-cult universe.

I can't even believe those are things that need an anti-qualifier in front of them, but whatever.

Our next guest makes really great YouTube videos about both of those movements in her very, very spare time.

By day, she is an ultrasound technician looking inside of us to see if anything's wrong, and she tries to fix it.

Keep that in mind as we talk.

My name is Julie, called Julie or JJ on social media.

And I,

wow, I feel like the past four years have gone by slowly and quickly all at the same time.

I've been doing content over

mostly multi-level marketing and

have dipped into religious cults a bit.

But

my experience in multi-level marketing has brought me to where I am today with anti-multi-level marketing content, just talking about the ups and downs of it, mostly the downs.

And

I have started to focus more a little bit as well in the cult territory, not just religious, but overall, just I think what all encompasses what I do would be

people doing bad things that they don't need to do.

Same Z's.

Can you talk to me, like, just tell me your backstory, how you got involved in multilevel marketing and how, what, what made you enter this entire world of the advocacy that you do?

Yeah.

So I grew up in a small town in Texas and I grew up where multi-level marketing was not seen as a bad thing.

In fact, a lot of people in my small town did it.

I

was invited to a Mary Kay party when I was in high school.

I used Herbalife in high school.

One of my good friends became like a vector marketing knife seller.

And I just never saw it as something that was bad or predatory.

I was also really young.

but when I graduated, well, I was finishing the last semester of my master's degree in theology and ministry.

So I was really religious.

When I was finishing up my last semester of that, I just got married and was short on cash.

And I had a friend that I knew that I went to camp with for a few summers.

And they were selling Arbonne and they wanted to talk to me about it.

And I was like, oh, that'd be wonderful to talk to them and also catch up.

So we got on the phone and

I was like, yeah, that sounds great.

Make a little bit more money, use products that you use, that I watched you use.

Sounds like a good idea.

So I did that and ended up,

I would say being mildly successful.

I qualify for the top 2%

in Arbonne.

There's four levels.

The qualifying for the top 2% is like qualifying for the third of four.

So it's regional vice president.

And then the top one is national vice president.

Weird names, I know.

And so I have qualified.

It didn't mean that I actually hit that level.

It means that I hit the number you need to keep that level once you actually hit it.

So you can do it in one month, one month, two months, or three months.

And you need to hit, if I remember correctly, it was like 40,000 your first month to actually qualify.

And then your second month, I think it's like 52,000 to become a regional vice president.

And then if you don't, if you don't do that, you have a third month to hit it, but it goes up.

So I'd hit that 40.

And

after that,

I feel like once I hit the 40,

it was,

you know, when you like train for something and you work so hard and then you hit it and you realize that you are just done.

You're at your wits and you're burned out.

You put in so much effort, and

I was just completely done.

And

I

also got let in.

Once I hit qualified, you kind of see behind the curtain a bit.

You see more of the leadership groups and talk to more of the leadership in the company.

And once I saw behind the curtain, I was not thrilled.

I was pretty uncomfortable.

It is

definitely a conspiracy theory

madness

back there.

It was very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable, especially during COVID.

You know, it was, I think, April, so right when everything was just exploding, April of 2020.

So I saw behind the curtain and was even more uncomfortable.

I was already exhausted from it.

What specifically, like you said, you see the conspiracy various things like that.

Can you talk more specifically about that?

Yeah.

So Cecilia Stoll is the top income earner in Arbonne.

And something she was really passionate about was the Save Our Children

conspiracy theory.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like the Wayfair situation and everything.

Okay.

For our listeners.

I'm sorry.

I'm laughing.

I just have to.

Is it my brief?

I'm sorry.

Okay.

This is like QAnon on adjacent.

Pizzagate stuff, right?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Oh, yeah.

So

yeah, let's just, so she's the top earner or is she the boss of arbon

the top earner and also i mean she had been in it since the 80s so i think that there she is seen as a boss as well of some kind okay has a lot of say in it i think should put it that way okay so she was into save our children and the wayfair can we just say what the wayfair situation was and save our children like what that yeah yeah

the best way i can describe it is they thought that children were being um stolen and put into Wayfair furniture, like lockers and things of that nature, and being shipped.

Right.

That Wayfair, the furniture sales company

that I've bought many pieces from, was somehow smuggling children into their shipping containers from China or something.

Something like that.

And then the shipping containers arrived in the U.S.

and they were basically trafficking children through Wayfair purchases.

It's a very popular conspiracy theory.

Yeah.

And then the Save Our Children thing, wasn't that also the one where like so many preachers have gotten caught like investigating it?

And actually it turns out they're the creeps.

You know, I have no idea about that, but that would not surprise me.

Okay.

But Save Our Children is like this, this

project to combat.

The numbers like 300,000 or something children that have been smuggled and trafficked in that way.

Okay, that's what they say.

Okay, so continue on.

So she was into this conspiracy theory.

Oh, yeah, it was a Facebook group.

It was a Facebook group.

Yeah, it was a Facebook group.

I got in there because it was like the leadership group, right?

And there was lots of conversation around this.

And it actually got taken down by Facebook.

Wow.

Good for them for once.

How many years were you in?

I was in it for, I think like 13 or 14 months.

Okay.

So not too long.

Yeah.

And how did you get that high up in that short of a time?

Nobody does that.

Honestly, a part of it was because I was

what is seen as like a religious leader in the church.

Got it.

I had friends from many different areas of my life from high school and summer camp and college.

And

yeah, I don't know.

I think that it had to do probably with the trust that people had in me as a religious leader.

And I think I just had like

this perfect mix of people that was able to join in.

Sadly, other than myself and maybe one other person, there really wasn't success.

And something that I found that was really frustrating to me was: I would tell my leaders, like, Hey, I, the people just aren't like seeing success.

They're not making money.

They're not doing this.

Why, you know, I am.

How, what, what is this situation going on?

Like, how is this?

And they would tell me, well, they're just not doing what they're supposed to be doing.

They're not working hard enough.

They're not, you know, doing this or doing that.

And I'm like, well, I personally know these people and I know that they are.

Like, I know that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing.

And I know that they're putting in effort.

I know them.

They're my friend.

They're someone I've known for years.

And they would just rely on the fact that they believed they weren't working hard enough.

They just couldn't be doing it correctly if they weren't successful.

And so seeing that as well, when I was in that leadership space

and hearing that also was frustrating for me and turned me off a bit even more, along with plenty of other things that I experiences I just talked about.

So it sounds like you had this incredible community that trusted you very much and you kind of wrapped them all up in this, like anyone who was was willing and so you rose through the ranks that way would you say that part of your success and the money you were earning was basically from sign up fees or people getting their kits going

yeah yeah i would say that um i would say that

A lot of it was from people signing up, buying kits, especially like you would get the most commission from someone buying a 30 days healthy living.

Which is the diet program, right?

Yes, it is the like the clean eating, protein,

fizz stick, you know, all of that.

And you would want them to sign up as a business partner so that they could also get people to do that.

Cause you would also get commission from that, of course.

Right.

And it was the most commission that you could get, unless they bought more, but it's very hard when you're spending $350 or whatever to...

to try and purchase more, which the kit was between, I think, like $320, $350, something to that extent.

So yeah, I would say definitely my goal was to get people to sign up as a business partner and to buy the 30 Days to Healthy Living, do it, and then have them also sell it.

Right.

But then that wasn't happening and your uplines were like, they're just being lazy.

Right.

Yes.

That's pretty much what was going on.

And

I didn't really know.

I was just experiencing a lot of cognitive dissonance.

I didn't really know how to take what my upline said and actually believe it, but I tried.

But the fact of the matter is I knew these people.

You know, I had relationships with these people and I just, I couldn't make myself believe that what they were saying was true.

Back to school is a time when routines reset, and so does screen time.

With all the pickups, practices, and after-school logistics, kids need a way to stay connected.

But handing them a phone designed for adults with internet access and social media, that's where the real concern begins.

Teens already spend an average of nine hours a day on screens outside of school.

That's basically a full-time job just scrolling.

The U.S.

Surgeon General says that kids who spend more than three hours online daily are twice as likely to experience depression and anxiety.

And most of that time is spent on social media.

It's staggering.

Nearly half of teen girls and a third of boys say social media causes overwhelming stress.

A quarter of teens say it makes them feel worse about their own lives.

Here's the good news.

Gab is doing something no one else is doing.

Their approach, called Tech in Steps, offers safe, age-appropriate phones and watches with no social media, no internet browsers, and GPS tracking built in.

From young kids to teens, each device grows with the child and helps build healthy tech habits.

Bottom line, you don't have to give a kid an adult device.

This school year, give them Gab.

Safe connection, no distractions.

I can't recommend Gab enough.

Use our code to get the best deal on something that gives peace of mind, whether you're a parent, a guardian, or just someone who cares.

Visit gab.com/slash the dream and use the code the dream for a special back-to-school offer.

That's Gab, G-A-B-B.

Ready to elevate your skincare?

Introducing Medicaid, a clinically proven dermatologist-recommended British skincare brand known for age-defying results.

You may have heard about growth factors as the must-have anti-aging ingredient, and that's why Medicaid is excited about their latest innovation, the Liquid Peptides Advanced MP Face Serum.

This serum harnesses the power of Growth Factor Miniprotein, a cutting-edge technology that mimics natural growth factors but goes deeper, delivering visible, transformative results.

Studies show immediate improvement in expression lines in just 10 minutes and a significant decrease in deep-set wrinkles after eight weeks of use.

The Liquid Peptides Advanced MP Face Serum not only reduces wrinkles, but also gives a filler-like effect, smoothing out your skin's appearance dramatically.

Visit medicate.us.

That's M-E-D-I-K and the number 8.us.

Use code PODCAST20 for 20% off your purchase today.

Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

I'm Hannah Bruner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

I like to call them my granny panties.

Actually, I never think about underwear.

That's the magic of Tommy John.

Same, they're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

Put yourself on to Tommy John.

Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John.

Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com/slash comfort.

See site for details.

If you thought goldenly breaded McDonald's chicken couldn't get more golden, think golden!

Because new sweet and smoky special edition gold sauce is here.

Made for your chicken favorites at Participating McDonald's for a limited time.

So you get in the back office, you realize this is like weird conspiracy theory territory and you're getting pressure to have your downline sell more.

And tell me about how it fell apart for you.

I would say

I really quit over a period of time, but after that, after when I hit the

qualification for regional vice president, I had never felt so drained in my entire life of everything.

I mean, socially, physically, mentally, I was just out of it.

And so I had a feeling I knew I was like, there's no way I could put in that same effort for this next month.

And so at that point, I just decided to be okay with whatever happened.

And

I started also working, you know, adding a side job to what I did, because while I did hit the top.

qualify for the top 2%, I still wasn't making a ton of money.

I mean, maybe I was profiting like $1,000 a month.

Oh my God.

Compared to what I was spending, you know, like, I mean, if I, my paycheck was $1,500, I was probably spending $500 of that on Arbonne.

So you're making like $10,000 a year, $12,000 a year.

Right.

Right.

I think the most I made was

without taxes was like $20,000.

So take taxes out of that.

And then also take what I was like paying our, like, buying products with for Arbonne, you know, take all of that out.

And it's probably right around what you just said.

Yeah.

And

how many hours were you putting in?

Oh, I felt like it was

consistent.

From the moment I woke up to the moment I went to bed, I had to like live this life.

I felt like it wasn't just like,

oh, I'm reaching out to this person.

I'm reaching out to people for an hour.

I felt because it was like a health and wellness, I, everything that I did was for.

Arbon, essentially, like the workouts that I did, the food that I ate.

Something that they like to say is:

slowly switch all of your products over.

So, like, it was all over my house.

Yeah.

So, it was just a constant reminder.

And it was a constant anxiety, too, because if I did it, like,

if I wasn't eating right, if I wasn't working out, if I wasn't doing this, if I wasn't showing these things, then of course, if I wasn't being a product of the products, then people weren't going to want to buy my product or they weren't going to

want to hear more about it.

Right.

So it was just constant in my head all day, every day.

And you got burnout.

Oh, yeah, very bad.

I mean, my mental health declined significantly after I hit the 40,000 for regional vice president.

Can you speak specifically about that?

What did that look like?

Yeah.

So I pretty much, I mean, of course, there was COVID going on.

But I just felt this kind of exhaustion I'd never experienced.

And I realized that a lot of it was due to

going against what I actually wanted to do.

So I guess I made myself believe that every, like all of my dreams would come true, all the exhaustion I'm going through, all the pain that I'm going through, all the, you know, the hours I'm spending away from my husband that I'm going through mentally, emotionally, physically would be worth it.

Because one, you know, one day I'll get hit national vice president.

I'll have a lot of money.

I will be successful in this.

It'll be great.

And

he won't have to work.

Time, money, freedom, whatever.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

I fully believe that what I was doing was going to do that for me.

I fully believe that what

when people join me, that that could happen for them too.

Like I genuinely believe this stuff.

And then I think once I hit the 40,000, I realized that that is just not possible for me in any way, shape or form.

If I had to put in the effort that I did, and if I had to

almost like treating my downlike, like they were, downloaded like they were kids, you know, like, hey, how's it going?

Hey, do you need help?

Hey, can I do this for you?

Can I do that for you?

Like, you want to get on a call?

Do you have anyone?

You know, just constantly, I felt like I was berating them with this anxiety to try to hit that 40K.

Um, and hitting it did not feel good.

It didn't change anything, really.

It didn't change anything.

I thought it would feel euphoric.

I thought it was going to be this euphoric experience and, you know, all the pretty pictures online that you see and all the excitement that you see.

And it just wasn't that.

I was, I felt terrible.

I was exhausted.

I was just glad I could close my laptop, turn off, turn my, put my phone away, turn it off.

Um, and so after that, I feel like I just slowly,

I mean, after that, is when I was seeing the things behind the curtain, right?

The Facebook group.

So it was like another layer, the Facebook group with the conspiracy theories.

Then it was, you know, the COVID conspiracy theories stepping in.

It all, it's like a pipeline.

You know, once you fall down it, you just go all the way.

I faded into the shadows.

I ghosted everybody.

My mental health was at an all-time low in October.

It was to the point where I like needed

psychiatrists' help.

It was really bad.

I'm sorry.

But

I mean, it's part of the story now.

And

I'm happy to be able to share that, even though it was terrible, because I think that we don't, I think people are nervous to talk about mental health.

And I'm a pretty big advocate for it.

You know, know, I got to the point where I just like that living was very difficult for me and it was something that I didn't really want to do.

Luckily, I had a great support system, and that is what really pulled me out of that space.

And that's when I was realizing what was going on in MLM.

I was like, whoa, this is actually not just Arbonne.

This is all of them, and it's actually terrible.

And eventually, people were saying to start a YouTube channel.

So I started it and it just took off.

And I built it over the last four years.

And that's really my main place of content when it comes to the things that I cover.

Let's talk about the difference between what money you were making in the MLM and what you make on YouTube.

Okay, yes.

There is a huge difference.

How many followers do you have, or subscribers do you have?

On YouTube, I think I have like 27,400 around there.

And you can pay your rent or your mortgage.

That's what I use my YouTube money for, actually, is to pay my rent.

So I'm I'm very grateful.

Yeah, that's more than, you know, a thousand dollars a month, I'm assuming.

Oh, absolutely.

And I don't have to use it for YouTube.

Like I, I, I have my microphone that I bought once and I used my iPhone 16

to film.

And yeah, you don't need to be buying stuff.

No, the only thing that I decided to do personally was get an editor.

Her name's Ava and I adore her and she edits my videos.

So I pay her from my YouTube money and I'm still able to pay my rent.

It's that time of year again, back to school season.

And Instacart knows that the only thing harder than getting back into the swing of things is getting all the back to school supplies, snacks, and essentials you need.

So here's your reminder to make your life a little easier this season.

Shop favorites from Staples, Best Buy, and Costco all delivered through Instacart so that you can get some time back and do whatever it is that you need to get your life back on track.

Instacart, we're here.

Ready to elevate your skincare?

Introducing Medicate, a clinically proven dermatologist-recommended British skincare brand known for age-defying results.

You may have heard about growth factors as the must-have anti-aging ingredient, and that's why Medicate is excited about their latest innovation, the Liquid Peptides Advanced MP Face Serum.

This serum harnesses the power of Growth Factor Miniprotein, a cutting-edge technology that mimics natural growth factors but goes deeper, delivering visible, transformative results.

Studies show immediate improvement in expression lines in just 10 minutes and a significant decrease in deep set wrinkles after eight weeks of use.

The Liquid Peptides Advanced MP Face Serum not only reduces wrinkles, but also gives a filler-like effect, smoothing out your skin's appearance dramatically.

Visit medicate.us.

That's M-E-D-I-K and the number 8.us.

Use code PODCAST20 for 20% off your purchase today.

Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

I'm Hannah Berner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

I like to call them my granny panties.

Actually, I never think about underwear.

That's the magic of Tommy John.

Same, they're so light and so comfy.

And if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft, and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

Put yourself on to Tommy John.

Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John.

Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com/slash comfort.

See site for details.

I knew that you had a history of studying theology.

I wasn't aware that you had done a master's program,

but something that you and I have talked about is the, as we were just saying, the MLM2 QAnon pipeline.

There's another pipeline that you've discovered.

Yes.

And I think it's been the past like six months I've been thinking about it.

Yeah.

And it's a pipeline of,

you know,

for example, Kelsey Ray is currently in this pipeline.

Okay.

Who's that?

Kelsey Ray is a Prove-It promoter who has like a really large, I think like a million followers on TikTok.

And Prove-It is the company that had those diet drinks or keto drinks.

Jesse Lee Ward, who was in our last season, who has sadly passed since then.

She was like way higher up at Prove-It.

Yeah, Jesse Lee Ward was actually Kelsey's upline.

So, yeah, they, I was introduced to Kelsey Ray by Jesse Lee Ward.

I mean, I think that we can all kind of see multi-level marketing starting to really struggle and has been for a bit.

And with Prove It being acquired by Herbalife, a lot of people in Prove-It are struggling.

And Kelsey Ray being one of them,

I have noticed this pipeline of, you know, fraud, scammer, whatever you want to call it.

Brittany Dawn is a great example.

Fraud, scammer.

You keep mentioning these names, and I have to just interrupt you because, like, you are so inside this world.

Yeah, you're name-dropping, but I think in the wider world, we don't know who these people are, but they're very influential.

They control millions of people.

And it's so, yeah.

So, Brittany Dawn, I don't know who that is.

I think I know who she is, but I don't know if our audience knows who she is.

Yeah, so simply put, Brittany Dawn was a very popular

workout influencer health influencer okay she made a big name for herself because she was fit pretty and skinny and essentially what she did was hey you can be like me too if you sign up i can make you a personalized workout and meal plan so

she did this made a lot of money from it and What started happening was people were responding saying, hey, I'm not seeing results.

This is not working for me.

And there was no response.

And

then ultimately, a Facebook group came out of that.

And it was essentially an anti-Brittanon Facebook group talking about, hey,

this is what my stuff looks like.

What does yours look like?

And what they found out was that their personalized workout and meal plans were all essentially the same.

Right.

Their personalized stuff was actually not so personal.

It was copy and paste.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And so they had paid all this money, I I mean, hundreds of dollars for this.

We're getting no response.

And so what do you do?

You try to find other people who are experiencing the same thing.

You have to know if it's just you or what's going on.

So they did that, got a Facebook group out of it where they all came together and were essentially like, um, hey, are y'all seeing this too?

Like, is this just me?

And what came out of that was the state of Texas sued Brittany Dawn.

It was, it became a really big thing.

She was on the news.

Um, So essentially, she had to pay a fine and is no longer able to have like a personal business in the state of Texas.

Wow.

Yeah.

But the thing is, with Brittany Daunch, she never came out

and held herself accountable.

She made this apology video that was terrible.

Her, her laundry was going in the background.

It was making loud noises.

It was just

ridiculous.

That's disrespectful.

Disrespectful.

Absolutely.

I am just here with my heart on my sleeve, and I'm here to put everything, like I said, to rest once and for all.

I apologize to anyone who feels like they got scammed from me, and I genuinely promised that my intentions from the start were pure.

I wanted to help and impact as many women as I could because I felt like this is why I was given this incredible platform.

When you're given an opportunity like this, you would be stupid not to take it and run with it.

And unfortunately, I ran too fast for one person.

These claims are coming so what i see with people like brittany dawn is they go into this i don't want to be accountable

how can i not be accountable with people thinking i was accountable and the what i see is they fall into this christian influencer sphere okay and essentially they're like god saved me god made me new

so they're not being held accountable anymore and they're not holding themselves accountable essentially because god saved them and god forgave them so why do they need forgiveness from anyone else

whoaf Another one is Tony Van Schoik.

Tony Van Schoik

was the top income earner and number one,

the very first Monet distributor.

So Monet is a motel marketing hair care company.

And Tony Van Schoik was let go from Monet.

Let go from an MLM?

Yeah.

Which is surprising because she was bringing them in a ton of money.

And she also was their very first distributor so i mean it was a big it was big drama and tony sued them they sued tony we i still don't know what came out of all of that um

but i i think it might still actually be going however tony today has opened her new a new mlm and it's ridiculous of course like all the rest of them but

tony has and i see this with a lot of people at mlm She's gone from this,

I think she's always kind of been a Christian, but she went from this like really really intense monic top distributor who

was like the write or die top leader that everyone looked up to.

And she just falls down this rabbit hole of like

Christian nationalism

and this make America healthy again, you know, like that pipeline we spoke about a little bit earlier where you go from MLM to like extreme QAnon Christianity in all of that.

So she's another one that's gone from just being, I think, a Christian to falling into this Christianity, make America healthy again.

Everything is bad for you except my stuff and the stuff that I make.

Melissa Collins is another one.

I don't know if you've heard about Melissa Collins.

Tell me everything.

So

I would love to.

I've covered her for a couple of years at this point, and she is the CMO of Life Activated Brands.

Lab is now an affiliate.

Meaning, they've stopped doing the pyramid scheme style, but they're still direct sales.

Right.

Okay.

Right.

And for a long time, the past couple of years, Melissa has always said that will never happen.

We will never do that.

Companies who do that are just not well run.

Stuff like that.

Well, comes out, that happens.

They do it.

Melissa has rarely spoken about it.

But what I've noticed is she's gone from posting these like mean, harsh, like you need to step into action.

You need to join a company, this company, you need to do this.

That was the biggest pack that we had then.

Now, the biggest pack is called the Pro Kit.

So, in order to purchase a business kit, it's either $199, $4.99, or $7.99.

The only difference between the kits is the amount of customer coupons you get, which are resources to build your business, and the products that are inside.

Most people get started on the enhanced or the pro kit, and that's what I would highly recommend.

I'll give you a little clue.

Every single person who makes five figures a month at Life Activated Brands started on the biggest kit.

Success leaves clues.

You figure out those clues yourself.

If we had more time, I can give you 500 reasons to this soft, more like, I love my family.

I love what God's done for us and what god has in the future for us and i've seen this flip so quickly from when lab was an mlm to when lab is now an affiliate so she's skirting this accountability of when she said this would never happen

of when she said uh companies who do this are just not run well things of that nature she's like look what god has done for us they took this huge vacation right as it was happening so she was a little bit off grid wasn't able to talk to people you know wasn't able to talk about it but she shared pictures of her family and how wonderful it's been and what a wonderful vacation.

And look, you can do what I do and do something like this with your family.

And God has provided so much for us and things of that nature, where she's now stepping into this.

I'm a little bit kinder.

Look what God has blessed us with situation now that she needs to be held accountable for something.

Right.

As you were saying, they were on vacation and taking pictures and posting them.

I was picturing Jesus with his arms wrapped around the the whole family.

Like that, you know what I mean?

Right.

They're like big engagement photos were by a huge cross.

Like, yeah, it was a whole thing.

And they keep posting them over and over, especially now that they're back from their family vacation.

And I think that's like their way to say, like, Jesus loves us and I don't want to talk about it.

Yeah.

You know?

So.

So then the next level is people believing they're a prophet.

Oh, Lair Leitner.

There's a couple of these.

I mean, Ray Higdon as well.

But Lair Leitner, can we talk about that?

Lair Leitner is on this scary level.

She has several hundred thousands of followers on, I think it's a Telegram,

where she is essentially a prophet of God and a prophet of Trump,

particularly, and talks a lot about almost as if he is Jesus.

And

what was, what MLM was she affiliated with?

So, oof, she created her own.

I think she was in Black Oxygen Organic.

Remember the one that was out by the like the

sewer, whatever.

What was it out by a bog?

Yeah.

Not only was Black Oxygen Organics out by a bog, it was the bog.

They were selling people dirt from a bog.

A gift from the ground.

Drink it, wear it, bathe in it.

And while you're at it, why don't you just eat it or whatever?

And then she created her own that's essentially the same thing as Black Oxygen Organic.

Her PDFs show

stuff about the plague, Marlburg, flu, smallpox, and pretty much how to use her products to negate those things.

The plague?

The plague, Yeah, the plague.

Yep.

So she has products to fight the plague.

Right.

She has an herbal book.

So the medical book I click on, Why You Should Put Garlic in Your Ear Before Going to Sleep?

is the top line.

No.

Uh-huh.

Practical Medicine for Every Household.

It's a home doctor book.

So it's like, you know, a doctor in a book.

I don't know what to make of these personality types.

What's your theory about what's going on here?

I think,

just off the top of my head, I think it's greed.

And I think greed to a certain point becomes an illness.

I think that

when you are so desperate for something, you'll believe and do anything to get it.

And so I think that's where they're at at this point.

I mean, just in delusion.

And that's interesting because that's like one of the the deadly sins, right?

Right, right, right.

That is.

I mean, you're supposed to avoid that as a Christian.

Can you speak from your position as someone who is a biblical scholar,

you know, theologian?

What do you think it is about Christianity in particular?

Like, because this isn't happening inside of MLMs in, you know, with other religions.

It's not like there's becoming a Muslim prophet that runs an MLM or whatever you know like it's it's very Christian so what do you think that is

I think that honestly a lot of it is racism

I think, I mean, we see in herbalife, right, they go specifically after the Hispanic community because they know that if you're an immigrant, you're moving to America and you're starting over, you don't have a whole lot of money, you don't a whole lot of community, and so they're offering these ideas to them that you can get both of those through urban life.

And I've had a conversation before about this with people who are people of color,

that they see as well that it is a racist thing.

And I think that when it comes to Christian nationalism, a huge part of it is racism.

I think it's more Christian nationalism than it is Christianity.

Because, I mean, it's very hard to not find someone in an MLM

who does not believe in

or will allow themselves, even if they didn't at the beginning, to believe in these ideas of QAnon or

to

not fall into that trap of conspiracy theory pipeline.

Once you,

I feel like when it comes to religion,

and for lack of a better phrase, once you enter that cult, it's easier to enter another one where people who are like-minded are there.

So entering into Christianity, if you do fall down this Christian nationalism route, it's easier to get into MLM, it's easier to fall into the QAnon pipeline, it's easier to just go with the rest of the flow of the people around you, right?

Can you talk about losing your religion if you have lost it?

Yeah, yeah,

yes.

So, yeah, I am no longer religious.

Um,

I did, I would say, I did lose my religion.

I, and I want to say that the deconstruction of that started in 2020.

Definitely as I was watching other,

maybe even earlier, but as I was watching Trump and people that I knew and love

support

his way and say, you know, this Christian should support Trump or

Trump is who God wants to be the president or whatever.

And I'm thinking in my head, like, that's actually just, that can't be true.

Jesus literally is the opposite of what Trump is and wants for the world.

Like, there's just no way these two things are the same.

Right.

And as I watched this happen,

I just couldn't imagine a world where God who created Jesus would want Trump to be president and allow him to do what he is doing.

And in my mind, it couldn't make sense.

And then, of course, once I started questioning that, I started questioning everything.

Right.

Like the historical aspect of it all.

I questioned,

you know, like, I guess the leadership in general of churches and these pastors who believe this and that.

And they're speaking from the Bible, but they're not actually reading the Bible.

They're just using things to make their point get across.

Right.

And so just.

The questioning and the deconstruction started after my experience with Trump's presidency and people who I love, trusted, and knew were smart

and that I had been around and that even taught me,

fell into that like, Trump is who God wants to be president idea.

I believe that

humans are made to leave a net positive on the world.

That's what we need to do as humans.

And that part of that,

in my case, is calling out those who leave a net negative

and

getting with the community of people around me to leave as much of a net positive as we can in our space, in our area.

And if you have reach, like myself, I'm going to leave a net positive anywhere else that I can.

So, really, just being good humans to each other.

I don't have like a god or a figurehead of any kind, it's more just humanity.

The dream is a production of Little Everywhere.

We love you guys.

Please keep listening to us.

Sorry if the ads are weird sometimes.

We're not in charge of all of them.

We've talked about this before.

I love you so much.

Consider this your sign to skip the what's for dinner debate tonight.

Outback Steakhouse has a three-course meal starting at just $14.99.

Start with soup or salad, then take your pick of down-under entrees, like our juicy towering burger or flame-grilled shrimp.

And for dessert, New York-style cheesecake, plus $8 cocktails all day, every day.

Three courses, starting at $14.99.

Tell the group chat you'll see them at Outback.

Price and participation may vary.

Ready to elevate your skincare?

Introducing Medicate, a clinically proven dermatologist-recommended British skincare brand known for age-defying results.

You may have heard about growth factors as the must-have anti-aging ingredient, and that's why Medicaid is excited about their latest innovation, the Liquid Peptides Advanced MP Face Serum.

This serum harnesses the power of Growth Factor Miniprotein, a cutting-edge technology that mimics natural growth factors but goes deeper, delivering visible, transformative results.

Studies show immediate improvement in expression lines in just 10 minutes and a significant decrease in deep-set wrinkles after eight weeks of use.

The liquid peptides advanced MP Face Serum not only reduces wrinkles, but also gives a filler-like effect, smoothing out your skin's appearance dramatically.

Visit medicate.us.

That's M-E-D-I-K and the number 8.us.

Use code PODCAST20 for 20% off your purchase today.

Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

I'm Hannah Berner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

I like to call them my granny panties.

Actually, I never think about underwear.

That's the magic of Tommy John.

Same, they're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

Put yourself on to Tommy John.

Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John.

Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com/slash comfort.

See site for details.

Hey, dream listeners, it's finally here.

The dream plus, where you can get every single episode of our show with no ads.

It's $5 a month.

It's the only tier.

No commercials.

Plus bonus content.

This helps keep us independent.

And your contribution will help change the way every listener hears the dream.

We'll be able to take out the ads that we don't even know are getting put into this show, which is annoying to both you and us.

We're also going to have an amazing discussion board.

The interface has it cataloged under AMA, ask me anything.

But I don't love rules.

So what I did is started a bunch of threads like ask Dan and I questions, general chit chat, just to make friends and stuff.

And every time I've been in charge of a discussion board, I've made a tab called Women Be Shopping, and it's there.

And we're just going to talk about what we bought.

It'll be fun.

That's the dream.s-u-p-e-r-ca-s-t dot com.

Supercast.

Please, please go subscribe.

It's five bucks.

It's less than a latte if you live in Los Angeles.

See you there.