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Speaker 5 Good evening.

Speaker 5 My sobriety is under question, but not in the way you think. This is a joviality test.
I do this before each program to test my spirits.

Speaker 5 I seem to have passed with flying colours. Once again, I wish to welcome you to Alfred Hitchcock Presents

Speaker 5 for another half hour of group therapy. I'm told there is nothing like a good murder to work off one's antagonisms.

Speaker 5 And if you have no antagonisms, our commercials will create some for you.

Speaker 2 Oh Alfie, tell me about it. It has recently come to our attention that some sneaky buggers, as I imagine he might say, have been advertising on our program.

Speaker 2 And before I directly address them, let me explain how advertising works on our show. For many years it didn't, and we made the show at a loss.

Speaker 2 Really, I mean, we kept the lights on, but no one was rolling in dough. Now that we're independent, that is, not with a major podcast network, we've decided we would like to turn a profit.
Novel.

Speaker 2 We work with an ad agency, ACAST, and they help us do this.

Speaker 2 One way we do it is by us reading ads, one is by choosing companies we're happy to have advertise on the program, and one is by something called dynamic insertion, which is kind of like an AI bot full of ads that get plucked from the add-o-verse or whatever.

Speaker 2 Those change depending on where you listen and how you listen. Sometimes people we do not like, for example, Christy Noam or RFK Jr., seriously, sometimes they sneak in and freak you out with an ad.

Speaker 2 And then you email me or DM me or leave comments on my social media about it. And first, I want to thank you.
How else would I know what you're getting fed in Chattanooga, say?

Speaker 2 And I also want to say we are on top of it as we possibly can be. And you are right to be outraged.

Speaker 2 Doing the best we can while also trying to create college funds for the kids is, um, it's a task, and sometimes we need your help. So that's that about the ads you hear on our program.

Speaker 2 We're not in control of some parts, and we do take your concerns seriously. I'll let L L FCS out of this rant, and we'll get on with the show.

Speaker 5 I want to make it clear that we always appreciate constructive criticism. Any expression of your feeling is always welcome.
We have a very warm feeling toward our viewers.

Speaker 5 We know they are intelligent, discerning, and warm-hearted. Present company accepted, of course.

Speaker 6 Yes?

Speaker 2 I'm Jane Marie, and this is the dream.

Speaker 2 Today, you're going to hear a familiar voice, that of Jennifer Ryla, who has been on the show a couple of times, discussing her many years at an MLM and subsequent recruitment into a coaching cult.

Speaker 2 Here is a continuation of our discussion.

Speaker 2 Well, first of all, like tell me how you've been, like, tell me what's going on. Okay.

Speaker 4 So, since you came to Michigan, I had just started a social work position working within the local school districts. And it's really exciting.
I've been incorporating anti-scam and

Speaker 4 anti-fraud content within the curriculum for the parent education resources that I've been doing.

Speaker 4 So, that that has been really rewarding and I'm excited about that. And I'm also just back with kids and families, which is what I was doing before, but with kind of a new lens on life.

Speaker 2 That's thrilling. Yeah, I love it.
Can you just recap real quick your Arbonne experience?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so when I was recruited into Arbonne, I was a social worker working for the state state of Michigan doing child protective services investigations. Before I knew it, I was all in.

Speaker 4 I had quit my job. I had just had a baby.
And I was terrified of putting toxins on myself, in myself, that my children were covered in toxins. I

Speaker 4 was

Speaker 4 down this self-help spiral for the next eight and a half years within Arbonne, multi-level marketing, coaching, and

Speaker 4 then I woke up.

Speaker 2 Can you tell us about your awakening?

Speaker 4 So when I was recruited into Arbonne, I was a new mom. I

Speaker 4 was

Speaker 4 passionate about helping people, but I was feeling really stuck in my career as a social worker.

Speaker 4 And a friend from college had reached out to me to share this new company that she had just been using these products. Would I like to try the products? I wasn't sleeping.
I wasn't washing my face.

Speaker 4 I really wasn't taking care of myself. I was burned out.
And I used the products, and

Speaker 4 I was under the impression that she was following up with me to purchase some products. Before I knew it, I was on the phone with her Wall Street executive, quote-unquote,

Speaker 4 upline, or the mentor, the person that had brought her into Arbonne.

Speaker 4 And I was being asked to start my own Arbonne business and I didn't really know what that looked like. But as she was talking to me, I thought, this woman has this great business acumen.

Speaker 4 Oh my gosh, she's on Wall Street, whatever that means.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 4 I'm like, I'm like this Midwestern social worker. I didn't, you know, nobody becomes a social worker for the money money and the glitz and the glamour.

Speaker 4 So obviously, this woman knows what she's talking about. Signed me up.

Speaker 4 What I thought was just buying a little starter kit to wash my face, because I'm like, hmm, maybe I should wash my face every night. To,

Speaker 4 I'm going to make millions of dollars and go to the top of Arbonne.

Speaker 3 So you did that, and then?

Speaker 4 Sorry, I sort of did that. I did recruit a lot of other people.

Speaker 4 I did make it to a point where I thought the business was actually working. I hosted a lot of in-home parties, was able to wrangle up a bunch of friends who then hosted parties for me.

Speaker 4 I mean, at one point in my life, I was pregnant with our third child. I had a two-year-old and a five-year-old at home.

Speaker 4 And I was traveling across the state of Michigan, like four or five hours one way in one day through snow and ice.

Speaker 4 And I mean, by hell or high water, I was going to meet people to share the gift of Arbonne to them.

Speaker 4 There was probably a good span of three and a half years of

Speaker 4 trying to get myself in front of as many people as I could

Speaker 4 obsessed with getting to the top. But I don't think that I ever did.
I think I'd convinced myself that it was working because I was putting in all this work and this business works if you do.

Speaker 4 That's what I was told. But looking back, that wasn't actually what was happening.
I was funneling money. I was spending time.
And

Speaker 4 did I eventually recruit enough people to drive the Mercedes and sign a lease? to make it look like I was at the top. Yes.

Speaker 2 Just to remind remind our listeners, you

Speaker 2 quote unquote qualified for the Mercedes level after your team

Speaker 2 sales reached a certain point, right? Can you just explain? I think that we just need to remind people that the whole free pink Cadillac, free Mercedes thing, like isn't actually free.

Speaker 4 Right. So as soon as you get recruited into Arbonne, you're told that this Mercedes level is your key to financial freedom.

Speaker 4 If you could just get yourself to this level, people will be knocking down your door to join your business because you're driving around this car. This is proof that this works.

Speaker 4 Not everyone's driving around this Mercedes. So it really gets ingrained in you that this is where you want to go.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 to qualify for the Mercedes, it was

Speaker 4 40,000 in sales in a month between you and your team. And the way that I earned the car is basically because everyone bought new product.

Speaker 4 Every month, then you have to get $40,000 again in order for Arbon to pay for it. But once you qualify, they're like, you have to have a Benz bash.
You have to throw this party.

Speaker 4 You invite people to come. They can see your Mercedes.
It's social proof. You pay for all of that out of pocket.

Speaker 4 You're told this is a business expense, but you're going to have so many people sign up that it's going to be worth it.

Speaker 2 But like Arbonn didn't buy you a car, right? Can you explain? Like Arbonne did not, you weren't given a car and Arbonne didn't pay for a car.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So I guess once you hit that qualification,

Speaker 4 you are strongly encouraged to put a lease in your name with Mercedes that you are promised that Arbonn will pay for now that you're a regional vice president.

Speaker 4 However, every month you have to re-qualify and get $40,000.

Speaker 4 So in order for Arbon to send you a stipend of your payment, so it can be anywhere from $200 a month to $800 a month, depending on your numbers. And that's not how much a Mercedes costs.

Speaker 4 It is a very small portion of that entire Mercedes, but it is in your name.

Speaker 2 What do you think it actually costs a month the least? Do you know, and insurance? Like, what is the full monthly expense on that car?

Speaker 4 A thousand,

Speaker 4 like my make and model.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was going to say, like $1,200. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And that's only if you do $40,000 a month in sales. Otherwise, you're just, now you just have an $1,000 a month car for some reason.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, it's.

Speaker 2 So you're paying for that emblem on the side of your Mercedes that you didn't even want in the first place, I'm assuming.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And I mean, I know that there's like people listening who are like, how could you fall for that? You're signing a lease.
You see the contract.

Speaker 4 And it's so hard to explain, but it's like you are running on hope.

Speaker 2 I know how.

Speaker 2 It's billed as like a $200 a month Mercedes. It's brand new.
It's beautiful. It's white.
It's fancy.

Speaker 2 And at most, you're going to be spending $200 a month extra, you know, like to make up the difference between the $800 check they're going to give you and the $1,000 that it really costs.

Speaker 2 Like that, I would go for it.

Speaker 4 You really believe. Like this is where I was told I'm going to have this financial freedom.
This is only going to get better.

Speaker 4 I got got myself over the mountain and now it's just going to be smooth sailing. All these people are going to join.
I actually think it gets worse.

Speaker 2 You ostracize yourself in a whole new way.

Speaker 4 You kind of have this air of superiority. You start to prescribe to that mindset of like, well, I just pulled myself up by my bootstraps.

Speaker 4 I worked for this.

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Speaker 2 Talk about your breakup with multilevel marketing. And then, mostly, what I want to focus on in this interview is like the deconstructing and what you're doing now.

Speaker 4 I was doing all of the things. And eventually, when I got recruited into Rank Makers to become a coach, because I had this Mercedes and because I was on this self-help trajectory,

Speaker 4 where I was like, as long as I'm spending money on coaches and I'm spending money on Arbonne and I'm spending money on my business. It's working, and I'm doing all the things.

Speaker 4 I know that I can teach other people to do these things. Well, when I became a coach, and other people weren't maybe recruiting the way that I was, I was like, how come other people can't recruit?

Speaker 4 Not understanding the math and the numbers and the logic of it all. And

Speaker 4 when I would go to Ray Higdon, who was my boss or the leader at the time of rank makers that I was a part of, I was met with, well, it's something wrong with their mindset.

Speaker 4 It's something wrong with your mindset as a coach. Maybe you don't believe you're worthy of coaching them.
Maybe they don't believe they're worthy of recruiting somebody.

Speaker 4 And I

Speaker 4 just began to question, or I would get told, well, they need to spend more money. You got to spend money to make money.
And all of these sort of thought-terminating cliches,

Speaker 4 kind of like the shelf in the back of my mind just broke. And I was like, if this actually works and these people are doing

Speaker 4 what I did, then how come they can't be successful? And then, well, I went on a questioning rampage, if you will. And then I had other people who had left

Speaker 4 help me kind of piece things together and know that I wasn't alone. And that kind of allowed me

Speaker 4 to doubt this for the first time. Because before that, any doubt was like something wrong with my mindset.

Speaker 2 What did you do?

Speaker 4 I just began to become more and more just out of touch with the whole thing. And I started to record meetings with Ray because I was really questioning what he was saying.
I was losing trust in him.

Speaker 10 So like, you know, I talk about this. I didn't like, there's a lot of stuff I didn't know when I started.

Speaker 11 And, you know, so I didn't, I didn't know visualization at all.

Speaker 10 Didn't know anything about it. Didn't know about the subconscious.
Didn't know anything about manifestation. But what I did know is that I didn't want to stay in a negative state.

Speaker 10 And so I created, when I was just getting started, I created a trigger that anytime I thought about how bad my life was, when I was in foreclosure, broke, chased by boat collectors, I had to prospect.

Speaker 12 And, you know, not that that's the healthiest long-term kind of plan, but it's a hell of a lot healthier than overthinking or staying in the negative.

Speaker 10 Because if you, you know, if you just did 10 setups every time you got negative, we'd all be six-pack abs.

Speaker 4 During the final meeting that I had as a coach for the Higdon group,

Speaker 4 someone had asked him,

Speaker 4 you know, our clients aren't getting success. We're telling them to do all of the things that you're coaching us to do.
You know, they're buying all these trainings.

Speaker 4 They're prospecting 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100 people a day. They're being vulnerable.
They're sharing their trauma. They're trying to relate to people.
And it is not working. What should we do?

Speaker 4 I think it could be a mental health issue. Maybe they need counseling.
And Ray had said, no, they need more coaching. They need to buy my book.
They need to sign up for our biggest package.

Speaker 4 And I am the type of person where even if I don't say something, you can read it on my face. I just can't help it.

Speaker 4 And so during the meeting, I must have had RBF or something and it made him really uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 2 I like to say that my bitch face never rests. It's not a resting bitch face.

Speaker 4 Well, she was not resting.

Speaker 4 So he calls me out in the meeting and says, Ryala, what's going on?

Speaker 12 Lady in red.

Speaker 14 Nothing.

Speaker 4 What's going on with you?

Speaker 11 What an endearing tone.

Speaker 14 Does anyone have a question? Well, I don't really agree with the advice. I feel like it's teaching people to deny their intuition.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 11 So what would you advise in that situation?

Speaker 14 So I always think when people have like feelings that come up, I don't think they're emotional addictions. I think, especially for women, like

Speaker 14 their feelings that come up are valid. And that's almost like how women move through things.

Speaker 14 And I think like continuing to tell people, like, just distract from your emotions in activity, it just ends up being like, it explodes eventually. And that's kind of like what you did.

Speaker 14 And then you got to this point where like, oh, you get to this dark night of the soul because you're like suppressing, suppressing, suppressing, suppressing with activity.

Speaker 14 And then you're like, oh, I never healed all this stuff.

Speaker 14 I mean, I hear people all the time who are like, you know, there's so much activity. There's so many trainings.
Like we just had the Reels challenge and the influencer brand secrets.

Speaker 14 And now there's this 1K challenge. And it's like all a huge distraction from what they really need to be doing with their business.

Speaker 14 And then what happens is we come to you with this information and you say, oh, it's something wrong with their mindset. And so I just think, for lack of a better word, it's all bullshit.

Speaker 6 Nice.

Speaker 4 He knew I was no longer fawning at him. I was no longer just like giddy when he said my name.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 from then on out, I just shared that I didn't agree with what we were doing. I felt like it was wrong to just get people to spend more money with him, especially if what he's selling is not working.

Speaker 4 Right. And that it was a scam.

Speaker 4 And within 24 hours, I was excommunicated from the group. I was told that I am resentful and bitter.
Content was made about me. I was kicked out of the group.

Speaker 4 All the other coaches came to his aid and said like that, I didn't understand what we were doing.

Speaker 4 And he said, well, if you hate it so much and you hate what we're doing and you hate all the people that we're trying to help, then why haven't you said anything?

Speaker 4 And the real answer is because I was in a cult and I couldn't say anything. Yeah.
I just finally had the strength to say something and

Speaker 2 got out. How did that, how did the fallout feel at the time, do you remember? Like understanding that you're out of the group and that people are talking about you and all of that.

Speaker 4 So I, I mean, now I feel incredibly lucky that I had the opportunity to actually confront somebody who was scamming me, somebody that I felt was doing wrong.

Speaker 4 I know a lot of people that either leave high control groups or religions or MLMs, they don't have the opportunity to have a conversation with the person that is wronging them or scamming them. And so

Speaker 4 today, I feel lucky that at least I could say some sort of piece, like, this is how I feel in front of people. Oh my gosh, at the time, it felt like a volcano had erupted and like

Speaker 4 just burning hot magma was just like simmering throughout my life, like destroying everything.

Speaker 4 Because when I was in MLM and I was in coaching and that whole world, the friendships and the relationships felt real.

Speaker 4 And to wake up from all of that and realize they're not real,

Speaker 4 that they exist because of the MLM making us all think that we're doing this like common thing and it's all working. But it's really like this cloud of delusion.
I felt just like raw and exposed.

Speaker 4 And all these people are saying all these things about me and they're no longer my friend. And do I have any friends? What are friends? You know, how do I make friends? I'm 40, you know?

Speaker 2 And And

Speaker 4 it was so much of fun.

Speaker 2 And also, what is soap? What is soap, actually?

Speaker 2 What are candles? Like, what is a diet shake? Come on. All the things you have in your house that are Arbonne products.

Speaker 4 Exactly. Exactly.
Can I eat real food? Can I use real soap? Am I going to be okay?

Speaker 4 Oh my gosh, it was so much. And this was happening simultaneously.
So I had all of the people within Rank Makers, and then I had all of the people within Arbonne.

Speaker 4 So people at the top of the pyramid within both respective groups.

Speaker 2 Right. They all turned against you at once.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Messaging me.

Speaker 2 Do you remember anything specific from that time?

Speaker 4 Yeah, there was a national vice president in Arbonne.

Speaker 4 She was sending me these. Instagram voice memos.
I'm talking like 30, 40 voice memos, Jane.

Speaker 2 Oh, no.

Speaker 4 Telling me that I hate women

Speaker 4 and I don't want to see them succeed. Why would I say anything bad about Arbonne when Arbon will always do the right thing?

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 4 And then the end of the voice memos ended with,

Speaker 4 I hope you find Jesus.

Speaker 2 Oh.

Speaker 2 I was going to say, maybe. That sounds like she's projecting and maybe she needs some therapy around hating women and et cetera.

Speaker 2 And then I thought, or maybe she just needs to buy one of Ray's books to get over her.

Speaker 4 Especially now that Ray is a prophet.

Speaker 2 Oh, right.

Speaker 2 Tell me about that.

Speaker 4 So after a huge exodus, if you will, from Rank Makers, there was a bunch of people that left and were speaking out.

Speaker 4 He transitioned

Speaker 2 sort of away from MLM.

Speaker 4 I don't think he'll ever really leave MLM because it is a vulnerable group of people that will buy into his bullshit

Speaker 4 because they're victims of their MLM company, not because they're stupid or because

Speaker 4 they don't think logically, because they're already roped into their MLM.

Speaker 4 So it makes it easy for him to further manipulate them. So I don't mean to

Speaker 4 disrespect people who have been recruited

Speaker 4 because there's a process to it. It's manipulation.
It's coercion. He had anti-MLM creators using their voice to speak out against him.
And so he claims that he went to some sort of conference.

Speaker 4 I believe it was a Joe Dispenza

Speaker 4 large group awareness training.

Speaker 4 And at that Joe Dispenza large group awareness training, somebody came up to him and said they saw God in him.

Speaker 4 This is the story that he tells that

Speaker 4 he was like anointed and

Speaker 2 sorry

Speaker 2 i have not no

Speaker 2 laugh don't it it's okay it's just so ridiculous

Speaker 4 the pivot to god okay so he did a video on youtube telling this story that he was called by god In 2022, my wife went and spoke at an event in Nashville and she came home and she goes, hey, there's a guy you need to meet.

Speaker 2 I go, okay.

Speaker 15 And

Speaker 15 we get on a Zoom call and on that Zoom call, first words out of his mouth, and we don't know each other. I don't know him.
He doesn't know me. First words out of his mouth.

Speaker 15 I see a big vision for you and God.

Speaker 13 I'm like, oh, okay.

Speaker 15 What's he trying to sell?

Speaker 12 Is he raising money?

Speaker 15 Is this a Christian mastermind or something? Or a mission trip? Like, like, what's the agenda here? And, um, and we talk for like an hour. None of it makes any sense, but it feels true.

Speaker 15 And next month will be my two-year anniversary with Christ.

Speaker 4 This is something that most people in multi-level marketing have already heard from their uplines. All of my uplines did trainings about how God put Arbon on their heart.

Speaker 4 And Jesus will bless you with money if you.

Speaker 4 in turn bless him and you live a sacred life or you follow his teachings and he will anoint your business. And so you have to understand many of these people have already heard this.

Speaker 4 And so the religious manipulation has already happened. Again,

Speaker 4 it is such a seamless transition from MLM to religion. It's been done over and over.
And he

Speaker 4 tells this story and he does like this brand shift. So he goes from like rank makers and rank makers live and this

Speaker 4 new breed of network marketers that he'd always been touting to faith over fear with Ray Higdon, which.

Speaker 2 No, it's got a brand name?

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Not with Jesus.

Speaker 4 With Ray Higdon.

Speaker 2 Does he really believe he's a prophet?

Speaker 4 So in this video, he

Speaker 4 more or less says that God spoke through him.

Speaker 2 Also, Jesus doesn't say anything about being blessed with a multi-level marketing opportunity. Like there's nothing in the Bible that's like, God will shine down upon you with soap and a downline.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't know where they're getting that from.

Speaker 4 Well, according to Ray,

Speaker 4 God wants you to be rich.

Speaker 15 You may be dealing with spiritual stuff with people. You know, people can

Speaker 15 have unclean spirits and things like that that cause them to show up in a way and

Speaker 15 whatever. But at the end of the day, that's still a valuable soul.
God would love you to win them over. And so that's what we're to try.

Speaker 4 So when he was in Rank Makers, he didn't do a lot of religious things. And that appealed to me because I did have a lot of upline talking about Jesus and God.

Speaker 4 And I didn't grow up in a religious family. So it always was like weird.
I'm like, if I wanted to go to church, nothing wrong with that. But if I wanted to go, I would go.

Speaker 4 But I can't go because I have an Arbonne training.

Speaker 4 So it's like, the only thing that was odd about this shift is that Ray was never religious,

Speaker 4 which made it even more manipulative, in my opinion, is because it was really like, oh my gosh, there were so many people who were

Speaker 4 Christians in rank makers who were like, yes, Ray found Jesus. Like, I'm so happy for him.
He's saved. It's sad, like, how their faith is being so manipulated against them.

Speaker 2 How does he justify the idea that God wants you to be wealthy? Like, I don't, where.

Speaker 4 He takes Bible verses. So, what his trainings have become,

Speaker 4 when it was just rank makers, his trainings were like, okay,

Speaker 4 prospect 10 to 20 people today and write it down in your rank makers journal. Do a Facebook Live.
Those were the action steps every day. Or

Speaker 4 celebrate your wins and share them in the rank makers group.

Speaker 4 When it became faith over fear, it was him translating Bible verses.

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Speaker 12 And we're not.

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Speaker 4 He would write the names of the verses

Speaker 4 and then interpret them as to basically why God wants you to be rich.

Speaker 4 And mind you, this is someone who like

Speaker 4 just started reading the Bible. So there were people commenting that were like, hmm, you know,

Speaker 4 I maybe they have some sort of

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Speaker 4 And he would be like, yeah, you would think that, but.

Speaker 2 But I have a special phone hotline straight to God. And he told me that what you really need to be doing is paying Ray Higdon.
Yes.

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Speaker 2 You leave that whole world. Tell me what you do next to start getting the kind of clarity you have now.
Like, how do you deprogram?

Speaker 4 I was connecting with other people who had left, that I knew had left, that I knew Ray had said, never speak to them again.

Speaker 4 Because while I'm reading about cults and I'm reading about high control groups, I'm like, oh, wow, that's why we couldn't talk to those people, or that's why we were told to block the haters and things like that.

Speaker 2 What did you think the reason was not to talk to people before your sort of awakening?

Speaker 4 I thought that because their negativity was going to rub off on my mindset and affect my business and my life.

Speaker 4 And you are the average of the five people that you surround yourself with. Your energy and

Speaker 4 hashtag positive vibes only,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 4 hashtag because of Arbonne, hashtag because of rank makers. Like, I was like in this little universe, this little bubble of any doubt is negative.

Speaker 4 And if you willingly consume that, then I'm only doing it to myself and I only have myself to blame.

Speaker 2 Ah, but then the scales fell from your eyes and you're like, wait a minute, I want to talk to all of these people.

Speaker 4 Luckily, I couldn't ignore it anymore.

Speaker 4 In many cases, there were people that were either former clients of mine, that coaching clients when I was working for Ray, you know, who either left and were dissatisfied

Speaker 4 or people that I considered to have a good head on their shoulders. And also,

Speaker 4 I got really pissed off from a specific incident. I had had dental surgery and I wasn't supposed to be taking any clients.
I was on pain medication because I was in pain.

Speaker 4 And I got a call from the Higdon group saying, we have this difficult client. And by difficult, she just wanted a refund because she wasn't getting results in her pyramid scheme.

Speaker 4 So there was nothing difficult about her. She was just standing up for herself.
But they were like,

Speaker 4 we have a difficult client. And if you save her, there's a bonus in it for you.
And I said, I can't talk.

Speaker 4 I just had surgery. And so I got really pissed off that day.

Speaker 4 It was a perfect storm of things. And I started to be like, where are those people that left? What are they up to now?

Speaker 4 It wasn't really until I was forced to leave.

Speaker 4 Maybe that's what I needed. I don't know.
But

Speaker 4 maybe I would have just gotten

Speaker 4 manipulated back in for, you know, because I think there probably would have been something

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 he would have then offered new and exciting just to the coaches or something that I would have been like, oh, well, this is going to be different.

Speaker 4 The same way that people jump from MLM to MLM. They're like, this is the one.
It's

Speaker 4 the same thing.

Speaker 2 Wasn't there like a support group you went to?

Speaker 4 I spoke to a therapist.

Speaker 4 And this therapist wasn't educated in cults, but she was willing to educate herself.

Speaker 4 And really, I just needed somebody to listen and validate that my doubts were healthy and it was okay to question things and that that kind of thinking is not negative thinking.

Speaker 4 That was very helpful. And

Speaker 4 people ask about, like, what did your husband think of all of this? And

Speaker 4 he's kind of like the silent observer type.

Speaker 4 And he knew that if he confronted me me on what I was doing, that probably would have just made me just dig my heels in deeper.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 he raised questions, he asked questions, he didn't always agree with things, but having him there

Speaker 4 to just support me and be like, it's okay that this happened. And I know you have a lot of shame about

Speaker 4 money you lost or money you spent.

Speaker 4 Not saying that

Speaker 4 there wasn't any accountability or responsibility there, but having a supportive partner was huge.

Speaker 4 I mean, just so many things. I also made a commitment to

Speaker 4 try to rectify any relationships that I could. So reaching out to people that I had tried to recruit into my Arbonne business and saying,

Speaker 4 I'm sorry, I'm out of Arbonne now and I'd love to grab coffee with you.

Speaker 2 That's the step in AA where everyone quits. Did you know that?

Speaker 2 There's a step in AA where you have to like right your wrongs and call people and apologize. And most people don't get through that part.
That's the part that's like insurmountable for most people.

Speaker 2 So that's very cool that you could do that.

Speaker 4 It's crazy that you say that because it really felt like an addiction.

Speaker 4 And sometimes when I say that,

Speaker 4 I feel like I'm diminishing real addicts' experiences.

Speaker 2 It sounds like you haven't been to a 12-step meeting before.

Speaker 2 No, they're basically like trauma offs, and everyone gets that out of their system pretty quickly. Like it doesn't matter how bad or not bad your situation is.

Speaker 2 You're not taking anything away from other victims by sharing your story. In fact, I think you're helping people identify themselves inside your story.
My heart breaks for you. And

Speaker 2 I feel exhausted on your behalf by how much self-doubt and how much examination you've done through all of these

Speaker 2 coercive control groups where you,

Speaker 2 it just, it must have been exhausting to be criticizing yourself constantly like that.

Speaker 4 And as I'm talking to you, I still sometimes will hear Ray

Speaker 4 in my head. It's, it sounds different than it used to, but he used to always say how verbose I was.
And you need to be concise.

Speaker 2 You, you just ramble on you're talking too much yeah smile more talk less

Speaker 2 yes

Speaker 4 woman he did kind of say smile more when he was talking to you in that meeting that I watched like what's the what's the look on your face you know I I've been out of multi-level marketing now since 2022 so it had it's still pretty fresh but I look back and it feels like it was like 10 years ago, not two years ago.

Speaker 4 Wow. Which I think is a good thing.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Can you talk to me about some of the stuff you've learned? You brought up a phrase earlier that I think is probably part of, I guess for lack of a better word, you're deprogramming.

Speaker 2 You said something about thought-terminating clichés. Can you just run through a number of these things that you've, since leaving

Speaker 2 MLMs and coaching, what you've learned?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so my understanding of what a thought-terminating cliché is, it's something that you say say to

Speaker 4 get somebody to stop critically thinking.

Speaker 4 And if somebody has a death, you might say something like, oh, well, they're in a better place

Speaker 4 in an attempt. So I'm saying it can be

Speaker 4 benign in like your intent,

Speaker 4 where you're thinking that it's helping them to not

Speaker 4 think about their loved ones or think critically about what happened. That would be an example of a thought-terminating cliche.

Speaker 4 But in multi-level marketing, one of the things is like when someone asks, is this a pyramid scheme?

Speaker 4 You are taught a thought-terminating cliche, which is,

Speaker 4 this is not a pyramid scheme because pyramid schemes are illegal. And I would never be involved in something illegal, which

Speaker 4 would get them, it sounds like a valid answer. because they like to think pyramid schemes are illegal.
They scam people. Right.
But, you know, drugs are illegal too.

Speaker 4 It doesn't mean that the crime doesn't still exist.

Speaker 4 And so another one in Rank Makers, Ray talked a lot about being postured.

Speaker 4 Being postured around your network marketing business means the belief in what you have regardless of external acceptance or approval.

Speaker 4 So what would happen is when someone would question what you were doing, if I reached out to somebody to try to recruit them and they were questioning, I would have Ray's voice in my head saying,

Speaker 4 I have belief in what I have regardless of external acceptance or approval, like I'm being postured. And what it meant to be postured to was to kind of be dismissive of their

Speaker 4 questions and their thoughts and their beliefs, in turn dismissing your own.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 4 And this got so programmed into you that it became this like rank maker badge of honor. How quickly you could rattle off the belief in what you have, regardless of external acceptance or approval.

Speaker 4 And I can still do it. And I probably will on my deathbed.

Speaker 2 What other ones are there?

Speaker 4 There was something in Arbonne that was kind of creepy where we would say, first you're in Arbonn, then Arbon's in you.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 I don't know why that's so gross.

Speaker 4 You don't?

Speaker 4 It's pretty gross.

Speaker 4 It's like the exorcist.

Speaker 2 Seriously.

Speaker 4 I wonder if there's a national vice president named Linda Blair.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 4 There probably is.

Speaker 4 And so what that would be used for is if you were questioning

Speaker 4 or if you had a teammate questioning and I'd go to my upline like, oh, well,

Speaker 4 Jane really isn't sending out her prospecting messages, and I'm just really worried that she's gonna quit.

Speaker 4 And you know, this is a side conversation, we would never have this conversation in front of you, Jane, because you're not privy to that.

Speaker 4 Okay, and I would be worried, like, you know, maybe I should look at what Jane's thinking. Like, maybe this doesn't work, maybe she's onto something.

Speaker 4 The upline would say to you, well, remember, first you're in Arbonne, and then Arbonn's in you. Meaning, Jane's just in Arbonne, but Arbon is in you.

Speaker 4 Ah, so you're like a step above. You're like chosen for this.

Speaker 2 Oh.

Speaker 4 Another one is if you were questioning the compensation plan or any ingredient, it was always like, well, we're going to have a training on that. Great question.

Speaker 4 Hold off. We're going to have a training on that.

Speaker 4 And then you'd hold off.

Speaker 4 And then it like, maybe the training would come, maybe it wouldn't.

Speaker 4 But like you've already forgotten because you have to prospect 75 people a day and you have have to make a Facebook live and you have to create content and you have to follow up and you have to, you know, drink your protein shakes.

Speaker 4 You have so many things that you're doing every single day that you've forgotten why you even asked.

Speaker 2 I would imagine one kind of lingering constant question is really about your compensation, the idea that you're not really a millionaire. How do you kick that can down the road?

Speaker 4 Your mindset and your mindset around money.

Speaker 4 so there's your mindset and then there's your money mindset did you know that ray like rewrote he basically stole think and grow rich and rewrote it for network marketers

Speaker 4 of course he did he has like a version that he sells he calls it vibrational money immersion what and it is it is almost word for word like think and grow rich but applied to network marketing oh my god so then you're not making money and it's not because the system or the business model doesn't work.

Speaker 2 It's because you haven't read Ray's book about mindset, money mindset.

Speaker 4 Right. And I would say Ray

Speaker 4 was a bigger perpetrator of this than at least some of my Arvon uplines. But he was big into,

Speaker 4 I pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to have Grant Cardone

Speaker 4 coach me.

Speaker 2 I don't know much about him, but I know he's expensive.

Speaker 4 I know he's a Scientologist.

Speaker 4 He likes a huge donor for the Church of Scientology.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 2 How did you come to the conclusion that you were in a cult?

Speaker 4 When I read Steve Hassen's bite model, Behavior, Information, Thought, and Emotional Control, and there was a checklist on his website that he encouraged you to print off and look at your group that you're a part of.

Speaker 4 And him

Speaker 4 saying like

Speaker 4 anything legitimate can stand up to scrutiny kind of gave me the permission to like, okay, well, let me look through this with a fine-tooth comb.

Speaker 4 And if it's not icky, like I'm kind of starting to feel that it is, then fine, it'll stand up to being scrutinized. And I was doing it simultaneously with Arbonne and Rank Makers.
And I'm looking at

Speaker 4 controlling the foods you eat and your diet. And I think the biggest one when I was going through the bite model was that emotional control, because I had

Speaker 4 lived like eight and a half years of thinking that any questioning, any doubt, any standing up for myself or any belief that I had that went against rank maker beliefs, even if it went against my own morality and my own values, was negative.

Speaker 4 Even in that final meeting where I said, I think this is wrong. You're charging people when it's not working.
You're just looking to scam them out of money.

Speaker 4 And then being told, well, she doesn't have her feelings of resentment under control. Obviously, she's a victim of her own resentment and she needs to defy her negative emotions.

Speaker 4 That

Speaker 4 really

Speaker 4 made me so angry. And I know now that anger is like just, it's a catalyst for change.
Right. I used to beat myself up and be like, why am I so angry about this?

Speaker 4 What am I manifesting that is just going to be bad because of my anger versus like, I could really make impact and change by, you know, fighting the good fight.

Speaker 3 Which is a good segue.

Speaker 2 So tell me how you're doing that now. It's really, like you said, only been a couple of years.
How different does your life look now? And what are you doing with your time?

Speaker 4 So when I first left, I thought that maybe I would create content and then

Speaker 4 I realized I needed to

Speaker 4 really take a break and learn to listen to myself again

Speaker 4 and trust my own instincts. And in order to do that, I had to get offline.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I was applying to use my social work degree and

Speaker 4 get into that field again and I was lucky enough to get into education which is something I never worked in before and I work with parents and I do parent education and I connect them to resources and I was really lucky to be able to create some curriculum around

Speaker 4 anti-fraud and anti-scam.

Speaker 2 And are you finding that it's a big issue in your community? Can you quantify that for me? I mean, I know what it is because I'm from Michigan in the middle of nowhere.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. And there's so many different companies around here and they change.
You know, I was responsible for the influx of Arbonne consultants for an eight-year period.

Speaker 4 Lularo had its time in this area. I mean, Modair,

Speaker 4 Scentsy.

Speaker 2 Isn't Melaluka really big in Michigan?

Speaker 4 Yeah, there's Melaleuca distributors. I see a lot of this make wellness popping up now.

Speaker 2 Scams of all sorts, you think, are a problem in your community.

Speaker 4 Yeah, people go looking for it. The same reason that I got recruited as well, because

Speaker 4 there aren't options for daycare. There's limited health care.

Speaker 4 So you might go seeking like alternative therapies or remedies for your health and then find yourself getting recruited into an Arbonne pyramid scheme or any MLM.

Speaker 2 You're in a real healthcare desert where where you are. Like I know that there's not like good hospitals.
You'd have to be like airlifted if something went really awry or drive for hours.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 To have a baby, you're driving like 40 miles. Yeah.
Access to healthcare, access to financial resources. There's so many paths to MLM.

Speaker 2 Being at your house and looking through all of your notebooks and daily planners, you're just so organized and so motivated to get your to-do list done when you are in in those organizations and reach your goal and set another goal and work really hard to get to it.

Speaker 2 Have you found a way to incorporate that into your life now? Or are you relieved to not be focused so much on the next thing and the next thing and the next thing? Or how's that working?

Speaker 4 I am absolutely relieved to not be focusing on the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. So that is a big yes.
I have learned to just appreciate more

Speaker 4 of what I have now,

Speaker 4 today, and like what do I need to do today.

Speaker 2 Well, thanks again for talking and I want to keep talking.

Speaker 4 Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 That's it for this week. We have a tip line open.
Call us at 323-248-1488.

Speaker 4 323-248-1488.

Speaker 2 And leave us a message about anything that you think is funky out there. Talk to me.

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