DINKS

Speaker 1 Why choose a sleep number smart bed?

Speaker 2 Can I make my site softer?

Speaker 3 Can I make my site firmer?

Speaker 4 Can we sleep cooler?

Speaker 1 SleepNumber does that, cools up to eight times faster, and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your sleep number setting.
Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night.

Speaker 1 It's our Black Friday sale, recharged this season with a bundle of cozy, soothing comfort. Now only $17.99 for our C2 mattress and base plus free premium delivery.

Speaker 1 Price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Check it out at a SleepNumber store or sleepnumber.com today.

Speaker 7 Rediscover skin that looks as vibrant as you feel.

Speaker 6 Medicate is a British clinical skincare brand trusted by dermatologists for visible age-defying results without compromise.

Speaker 13 And right now is the best time of the year to try it.

Speaker 16 Medicate's 30% off during their Black Friday sale.

Speaker 17 If you've been curious about retinol, start with Medicaid's Crystal Retinol Night Serum.

Speaker 22 It's award-winning, ultra-gentle, and proven to work 11 times faster than traditional retinol, smoothing wrinkles, brightening dark spots, and firming skin without irritation.

Speaker 6 Or try the fan-favorite liquid peptide serum, clinically proven to smooth fine lines in just seven days.

Speaker 11 And if you want that lifted, deeply hydrated feel, Medicaid's newest innovation, Advanced Pro Collagen Plus Peptide Cream, delivers visibly rejuvenated skin while reducing wrinkles.

Speaker 26 This is the moment to elevate your routine.

Speaker 10 Medicate's 30% off Black Friday sale is is happening now through Tuesday, December 2nd.

Speaker 28 Visit medicate.us. That's M-E-D-I-K-8.us and save 30% on age-defying skincare.

Speaker 30 I'm Maris Kreisman, and

Speaker 30 yeah.

Speaker 3 I'm Josh Gondelman, and we are married to each other.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 I'm Jane Marie, and this is The Dream. The name of this show is kind of a joke, because the idea of living the dream is kind of a joke.

Speaker 4 And most of the time, we could call our program the nightmare, but not today.

Speaker 4 Today's guests are friends of mine who are living a version of the dream that I think a lot of us find enviable and fascinating.

Speaker 4 They made a very simple choice with radical consequences in terms of their personal happiness and well-being.

Speaker 4 Tell me a little more about you. Like, what do you do? Where are you? Etc.

Speaker 30 I have a book out now called I Want to Burn This Place Down. It's an essay collection about all of the.

Speaker 4 Relay it up all.

Speaker 30 Yes. I mean, look around, right?

Speaker 30 And I have a newsletter called the Maris Review, and you can find it just by going to MarisCraftsman.com.

Speaker 4 Great.

Speaker 3 And oh, that's our pug Maggie, who's scratching on the carpet a little bit, which is not a usual Maggie proclivity.

Speaker 3 I'm Josh, and I'm a writer and comedian. I've worked in television on late-night shows like Last Week's Night with John Oliver and Deezus and Merrow.
I've written a book. I do a lot of stand-up.

Speaker 3 I have a new special out called Positive Reinforcement.

Speaker 3 And I also write a newsletter, but writer-comedian, I think, is the headline of what I do. Pug Dad.

Speaker 4 Pug mom.

Speaker 3 Celtics fan. Like just

Speaker 3 Boston expat. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Josh left out one thing. For all of you avid public radio listeners, Josh's voice may sound familiar.
He's one of the regular guests on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me. Yeah, we're jealous, Josh.

Speaker 4 But wait, wait, there's more.

Speaker 4 I wanted to invite you both on because I think you are living a dream, at least a dream I once had

Speaker 4 of being a dink, which I thought was like a rude thing when my mom would say it when we were growing up, but now I'm like, oh, she was just jealous.

Speaker 4 Living in a dual income, no kids household is what that stands for. And

Speaker 4 obviously this season we're branching out and doing different things outside of pyramid schemes and wellness and such, and just exploring different corners of the American dream and what that's supposed to look like.

Speaker 4 And so I wanted to talk to you about what life is like as a married couple who've been together for a while and don't have nor seem to be itching to possess children.

Speaker 3 Possess children is such a good way to put that.

Speaker 4 Well, I mean, having them implies that someone's body gets ripped apart, but I feel like getting them

Speaker 4 or possessing them

Speaker 4 to get ripped apart.

Speaker 4 Acquiring a child is kind of what everyone does, whether or not their body is part of that equation.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 would you say that that's a correct assessment? Do you think that's a correct assessment of where you're at?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think that's a

Speaker 3 great description. We have been married for eight years and together for 11.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 we don't possess any children and we don't have any

Speaker 3 designs on acquiring any.

Speaker 30 Our dog is very lucky.

Speaker 3 She has a lot of attention paid to her. So if she was hoping to get up to no good, it would be difficult for her because we focus all our parental energy on that.

Speaker 4 Oh, well, good for Maggie.

Speaker 4 How did you meet?

Speaker 30 We had a mutual friend who brought Josh to a party I was throwing.

Speaker 3 It's an extremely 2014 set of circumstances, which is a friend that we both just met brought me to a party that Maris had

Speaker 3 thrown to celebrate the five-year anniversary of her very popular Tumblr blog.

Speaker 4 Wait, what?

Speaker 30 Yep.

Speaker 4 First of all, Maris, good for you. You are just living it all over the place.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we just started dating right away. We got along

Speaker 3 right away at the party and like went on our first date maybe three days later and then just like continued to date through

Speaker 3 a wedding and living together and moving apartments.

Speaker 30 And yeah, yeah, we moved in together. We waited to get married, but we moved in together pretty quickly.

Speaker 3 Well, it was all like to me, it felt like pretty structured at like one-year marks. We're like, we moved in together right around a year of dating, like 13 months, maybe.

Speaker 3 We got engaged a year after that, on like our anniversary, and then got married just over a year after that.

Speaker 3 So it all, you know, none of the, we were together for three years when we got married, but we knew at two years that we were going to get married.

Speaker 30 Yes.

Speaker 4 I love the kind of romances where you meet and then you just kind of never stop hanging out.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it was. That's how it was.

Speaker 3 It was really lovely. Like it just, I don't know.
I always just felt like, oh, this is great. And it's always more fun when Maris is around.

Speaker 4 Oh.

Speaker 4 You still feel that way?

Speaker 3 You patted my hand twice. I I do.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Good.

Speaker 3 Good. It's pretty lovely.
I mean, the comedian Phil Hanley has this joke that I always think about where he says, and I think he's recorded this and put on specials years ago.

Speaker 3 So I don't feel bad because it is such a clarifying sentiment that I feel like people should hear it. Of like, they say when you meet the right person, you know right away.

Speaker 3 How come when it's the wrong person, it takes a year and a half?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, I'm watching, I'm in the middle of watching the new Love Island

Speaker 4 and I feel that way at watching everybody. I'm like, it should not be this hard

Speaker 4 like what is the amount of work you're putting into this complete stranger not just like to get them to like you but to even be able to tolerate them right

Speaker 30 my mom always used to say when you meet the right person it'll be easy and i was just like stop lying mom

Speaker 4 that's not a thing

Speaker 4 Did you have conversations early on? So it sounds like you moved in after a year, you got engaged after two, and then kind of the the rest is history, right?

Speaker 4 Did you have conversations about what your togetherness would look like, what your relationship would look like kind of in the mid to long run?

Speaker 30 When Josh asked me to marry him,

Speaker 30 I

Speaker 30 made sure that he understood that I didn't want to have kids.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that was like the biggest conversation that we had was that night. And I

Speaker 4 that night, night, the first night?

Speaker 3 No, no, no. When we when we got engaged.
Oh,

Speaker 3 okay. We talked about it.
Like in in like real, in real sincerity, I think that was like the kind of moment of like, oh, this, this isn't, at the very least.

Speaker 3 If we do end up acquiring a child, we're going third party. It'll be down the line.
And yeah, that's, I think that's, that was established, like certainty, in certainty when we got engaged.

Speaker 3 But I think we'd talked about it before. We must have.
Like, neither of us, I think we both are,

Speaker 3 I remember both of our stances, like up until that point being like,

Speaker 3 I, you know, I, I'm not in a rush to do it. It's it's not something that feels pressing or missing from my life.

Speaker 3 It, it's not like the, the puzzle piece that completes the picture of like a happy and thriving life and relationship.

Speaker 30 And I would always,

Speaker 30 I had always had bad luck in love. And so always thought like, I, I am, I can't even consider this.
Like I can barely afford my studio apartment. What am I going to do?

Speaker 30 Um, and then when Josh and I got into a stable relationship,

Speaker 30 I realized that I still didn't feel compelled.

Speaker 3 Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 4 That is interesting. Say more about that.
Like you, you, had you been thinking up until that point, like, well,

Speaker 30 when the circumstances are right.

Speaker 30 Yeah.

Speaker 30 And like,

Speaker 30 there's, I never, when I was a kid, thought I wasn't going to have kids. Like I was going to do every single thing regular people did and regular people have kids.

Speaker 30 And so I wasn't going to deny myself of that.

Speaker 30 And

Speaker 30 sometimes I still can't believe how revolutionary this feels

Speaker 30 that I've chosen something so not normal.

Speaker 4 Well, you know what's funny is that doing the normal things that normal people do is sort of

Speaker 4 my

Speaker 4 well, I always put it like I want the breadth of the human experience,

Speaker 4 but I did not grow up being like baby hungry. I've never had that

Speaker 4 itch. Have you ever had that at any point in your life, Maris, to like put a baby inside of your body?

Speaker 30 I have had the itch to hold babies and rock babies and stuff, but no, not a baby inside my body, no.

Speaker 3 And I've also specifically, like, I used to work with little kids. I love babies and kids, but I've specifically always been like mortified by the idea of making someone grow a baby inside them.

Speaker 3 It just felt like such a cruel thing to do to another person's human body.

Speaker 30 I also want to mention that I have type 1 diabetes, and I know plenty of type 1 diabetics who've had very successful pregnancies.

Speaker 30 But I grew up in the age of Steel Magnolias

Speaker 30 where Julia Roberts was told that she could not have a baby or else she would die. And what happens?

Speaker 30 She dies.

Speaker 4 Sorry. Spoiler alert.
Spoiler alert from the 80s, guys.

Speaker 3 Well, this was also, I remember that being like a really big part of our conversation in Philadelphia when we got engaged. You saying like this would just be so hazardous to my body.

Speaker 3 And I don't think it's anything that I want to take on necessarily and I was like oh yeah for sure we can always we can always seek out a baby if we want a baby down the line and you know nine nine years later it hasn't come up that we're like God we gotta find a baby we just found a baby right her name's Maggie and she's a pug and she's a pug

Speaker 30 I have to say my mom told me to just get a dog so

Speaker 3 ouch mom I know but she was right and I think like I don't I never felt like a lot of pressure from my parents. Like, I think we had like a brief talk about it at one point.

Speaker 3 And I know, I think they would really, I think they make great grandparents. I think they're great parents.
And uh,

Speaker 3 but it's, yeah, I think, you know, I really offloaded that pressure to my sister who also does not currently have children.

Speaker 30 So here's, here's the thing that I remember most. I went to my endocrinologist

Speaker 30 and she knew that I was getting married. And she, so she said, are you going to have babies? And I said, I don't, I don't think so.

Speaker 30 And she, more than anyone, should know like what's involved in type 1 diabetes and pregnancy. And she said,

Speaker 30 well, does he know? And I said, yeah, of course he knows.

Speaker 24 We've discussed this.

Speaker 30 And she says, but what if he changes his mind?

Speaker 4 You're like, do you know something I don't know?

Speaker 30 I guess that's a familiar trope.

Speaker 4 But I mean, I really, what is the answer? Like, well, then he can just go have a baby. Yeah.

Speaker 4 You know, like, we'll get divorced for one of the 100 reasons people get divorced. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Right. I think that's a, that's like a weird thing to propose as like, I don't know.
We've, we've talked about it. We've, we have an, an understanding and a loving marriage.

Speaker 3 And if like any fundamental principle of our marriage would be to change unexpectedly, that would, I think, be destabilizing to the both of us.

Speaker 4 Right. I mean, that is, that is, yeah, where I was going to go next is like, well, people change.
Things, circumstances change. Life happens to you.

Speaker 4 And the idea that you're never going to be a different person within like a lifelong relationship is weird to me.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I think, I think

Speaker 3 ideally, and ideally, right, a marriage can like withstand a capacity for change. And I think that's like a really beautiful thing.

Speaker 3 And I, and I, but I don't think, you know, the people I've known who have gotten divorced because there have been new circumstances or just growing apart after a long time.

Speaker 3 It's like, I don't look at them and be like, oh, those failures who couldn't stay static or couldn't like absorb the another person's dynamism. You know, I think that that's like part of what life is.

Speaker 3 And like, you want both people to be happy in the long term. And I think we, we are like, it's, you know, we, we're very long-term compatible is like the, what it feels like now and what the hope is.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Do you, did you both come from big families?

Speaker 30 I have two older brothers and they both have kids. So a lot of pressure was taken off from me, even, even with that.

Speaker 3 And I'm the older brother and I have one younger sister. And I think it is kind of like the expectation I think would be on me to go first.

Speaker 4 How old are you guys? I forget.

Speaker 30 I'm 46.

Speaker 4 And I'm 40.

Speaker 4 Okay. So Maris, you and I are the same age.
I mean, I'm 47, not to brag, but

Speaker 4 I'm close.

Speaker 3 She made it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 There's still plenty of time. I mean, I live in LA where people have kids in their 60s.
So

Speaker 4 you know, there's lots of time.

Speaker 4 When people, are there people around you close to you, either in proximity or emotionally, who have had babies recently?

Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah, lots.

Speaker 4 And what are your thoughts?

Speaker 4 Imagine you have this like pillow talk after you visit them, the baby going like,

Speaker 4 they just get to go to sleep tonight.

Speaker 4 We're not going to be up nursing all night like they are.

Speaker 30 I think that's

Speaker 30 we hang out with baby Lulu and she is charming and delightful and we enjoy our couple of hours with her. Totally.
And then we go home satisfied.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that is a couple of hours usually is enough baby in the day for us. But like, I don't know.

Speaker 3 I think, I also do think it's really beautiful to see friends or family members who like really wanted this as part of their life to feel really

Speaker 3 happy and

Speaker 3 engaged and

Speaker 3 like

Speaker 3 just this like love, like a new love in their life in this way. I think that's really special to observe.
And I'm always really like blown away by that joy when I see it in other people. Yeah.

Speaker 4 But it doesn't overcome you.

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 Not to the point of like wanting it for myself, but it's like overcoming like beautiful music is overcoming where I'm not like, I gotta play the bassoon, but I am like, wow, it's amazing that this feeling exists and you can you can see it and feel it.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 31 You know how every family has those holiday traditions that make the season the season? For me, it's my entire family singing along to holiday music.

Speaker 31 It's doing a giant Christmas themed jigsaw puzzle with my family or drinking out of our old Christmas mugs and slutting in the yard.

Speaker 31 All of those memories are perfect for an Aura frame because now, instead of scrolling through a thousand random photos on my phone, I can actually see those moments, my family, my friends, snow, right there.

Speaker 31 glowing in my living room like a nostalgic little time portal. With Aura, you get unlimited photo and video storage totally free.

Speaker 31 You just download the Aura app, connect to Wi-Fi, and start adding your favorite shots. And if it's a gift, you can even preload photos and add a personalized message before it ships.

Speaker 31 So it's it's ready to go the moment they open it. Aura Frames, you can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it.

Speaker 31 For a limited time, visit auraframes.com and get $45 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code DREAM at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com.

Speaker 31 Promo code DREAM for $45 off. This exclusive Black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now before it ends.
Support the show by mentioning us at checkout.

Speaker 31 Terms and conditions apply.

Speaker 32 Hi, this is Knox from the popcast with Knox and Jamie. And maybe, like us at the podcast, you also know people who have been smokers or vapors.

Speaker 32 And Zen is the one product it seems like everyone is talking about. Because there are many good reasons to make a change to Zen nicotine pouches.

Speaker 32 Reasons like Zen nicotine pouches are still America's number one choice for smoke-free, hands-free nicotine satisfaction.

Speaker 32 And you can choose between 10 varieties, each variety available in either three or six milligrams. Check out zen.com/slash find to find Zen at a store near you.

Speaker 32 Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

Speaker 2 Most people overpay for car insurance, not because they're careless, but because switching feels like too much hassle. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant.

Speaker 2 Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop.
No spam calls, no hidden fees.

Speaker 2 Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence.
Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai/slashacast today.

Speaker 7 Rediscover skin that looks as vibrant as you feel.

Speaker 6 Medicate is a British clinical skincare brand trusted by dermatologists for visible, age-defying results without compromise.

Speaker 13 And right now is the best time of the year to try it.

Speaker 16 Medicate's 30% off during their Black Friday sale.

Speaker 17 If you've been curious about Retinal, start with Medicaid's Crystal Retinal Night Serum.

Speaker 22 It's It's award-winning, ultra-gentle, and proven to work 11 times faster than traditional retinol, smoothing wrinkles, brightening dark spots, and firming skin without irritation.

Speaker 6 Or try the fan-favorite liquid peptide serum, clinically proven to smooth fine lines in just seven days.

Speaker 11 And if you want that lifted, deeply hydrated feel, Medicate's newest innovation, Advanced Pro Collagen Plus Peptide Cream, delivers visibly rejuvenated skin while reducing wrinkles.

Speaker 26 This is the moment to elevate your routine.

Speaker 10 Medicaid's 30% off Black Friday sale is happening now through Tuesday, December 2nd.

Speaker 28 Visit medicaid.us. That's M-E-D-I-K-8.us and save 30% on age-defying skincare.

Speaker 4 What are the things that you are doing in life or could do later that, like, probably

Speaker 4 wouldn't be possible if you had a small person in your home? Do you guys have a vacation spot that you like to go to? Are you spontaneous?

Speaker 4 Like, are you doing, I'm imagining just this like carefree coupledom.

Speaker 3 I think a real freedom that we have is like we, it's little stuff. It's like, I would say we're pretty spontaneous like day to day, though.
Yes.

Speaker 3 Where it's like, oh, it's such a beautiful night let's just go and the two of us will have dinner and a couple drinks and we'll take a walk and like these are all things that like people can do with kids um but you know i do think we're there's a little more flexibility and there's also a little more like i think there's a little more professional risk that we can absorb yes because oh my god i was just gonna ask that that's the big one and because i do think you know we travel a bunch and i travel a lot which i think would be a lot harder it would be a lot harder to do that kind kind of professional travel that i do if and that maris has coming up for her book tour if um

Speaker 3 if we had to like think about child care as well you know um but it definitely there's like a level of oh we don't have to save to put a kid through college right we don't have to buy you know supplies for a kid like it's just kind of like there's there's two mouths to feed and we're both working towards feeding them and plus a pug mouth but you know she's not a big eater.

Speaker 4 But you can be pickier in how you find the money to feed your mouths.

Speaker 30 Yes, 100%.

Speaker 30 And when we got married, I went freelance for the first time. Like, I had never had the freedom to do that.

Speaker 30 And I started making much less money than I had been making in my regular day-to-day jobs. And it was that felt like freedom for sure.

Speaker 30 I had always

Speaker 30 done a little writing on the side,

Speaker 30 but until I married Josh and

Speaker 30 went on his health insurance, I couldn't just be a writer.

Speaker 30 And that is what that allowed me to do.

Speaker 3 And we've, I think we've both had periods of like more and less work in creative fields over the past eight years. Like it kind of ebbs and flows.
And I think like we haven't really come up against

Speaker 3 a terrible dry spell or a terrible terrible challenge, you know. Um, oh no, like we, so neither of us fortunately have had like a medical emergency that has caused

Speaker 3 extra finance that we're like, oh, we, even if we start earning and building back up savings again, we still have to like just tread water so much harder to like pay for school and to, if we want to go out for three hours, we have to get child care.

Speaker 3 Or, um, you know, I think we, we both have, there are many evenings where we're both doing either work events or seeing friends separately or seeing friends together.

Speaker 3 And I think we're like pretty bustling in terms of like social life and like the blend of social and work life as well, right?

Speaker 3 Like where, you know, a lot of nights it's like, oh, I'll go out and do a show, but I don't have to like come home to relieve the babysitter.

Speaker 3 So I can just like stay out and hang out with friends for a couple of hours and you can be in bed and relaxed and not worried. And like that, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 like it's just oh my god relaxed and not worried yeah i mean like as not to put you on blast but like your best approximation maris of relaxed and not worried

Speaker 4 thank you of course

Speaker 4 what did you learn in previous relationships that brought you

Speaker 4 to be so i you guys are like my ideal uh couple in that you're both um industrious and seem to like each other a lot and aren't the when I said I relaxed and not worried just now, of course I was talking about like when I feel worried about my daughter, but I'm also,

Speaker 4 I've also been in a string of relationships where I'm worried about them or like, you know, oh, am I staying out too late? Am I going to get in trouble?

Speaker 4 Like it seems like you guys are solid in that arena. Did you learn anything in your past relationships that led you to be like this compatible, I guess, or, or

Speaker 4 understanding of one another's,

Speaker 4 you know?

Speaker 30 From my perspective,

Speaker 30 we both had something similar in that

Speaker 30 we had dated people who,

Speaker 30 what is the correct way to put this?

Speaker 3 I don't know what you're going to say, so I don't, I can't be of any help yet.

Speaker 4 Were a lot

Speaker 4 like had a lot of people who were a lot of seeds

Speaker 4 say more.

Speaker 30 And

Speaker 30 we were the kind of

Speaker 23 rocks.

Speaker 3 Oh, interesting. Because I also, I feel the opposite about some of my previous.

Speaker 30 We'll see.

Speaker 3 But go, I want to hear what you have to say. And then I'd like to, yeah.

Speaker 30 It sort of goes back to, again, what my mom would say, like, find some nice lawyer. You don't need a creative person.
You just like someone who you could have a life with.

Speaker 30 And that always sounded so disgusting to me. And I wanted drama and I wanted emotion.

Speaker 30 And

Speaker 30 it was not until I met Josh where I felt like, oh, feeling like you're going to cry all the time is actually bad.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Maris, did you have to do work on that though for yourself? Like to be chill enough to,

Speaker 4 you know, to be in this? Like, did you?

Speaker 30 No, I

Speaker 30 wrote a piece 10 years ago about how I met Josh because I got lucky, not because I worked on myself, not because I really changed anything about my approach. It's just like

Speaker 30 I found him

Speaker 30 and we

Speaker 30 clicked and we had similar attitudes about life. And suddenly, this is what I wanted to.
Like, I was just like ready to

Speaker 30 not have

Speaker 30 so much angst in my life.

Speaker 4 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 You were, what, 30?

Speaker 30 35.

Speaker 4 35.

Speaker 4 That's a, yeah, that's about the time you wanted to, all the bullshit to stop. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4 Josh, what about you?

Speaker 3 I think, I, you know, I think I understand what you're talking about.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think in the, A long time ago, I had dated people that were like very intense and there was like a tempestuousness to things at times.

Speaker 3 And I definitely had that maxim in my head of like relationships are work and they're, they're hard. And I, I think like work doesn't mean hard.

Speaker 3 Like work means like you care about the other person and you take them into account and you, you know, you're invested in their happiness and they're not just like riding sidecar on your journey.

Speaker 3 But it doesn't mean like

Speaker 3 things have to be

Speaker 3 difficult.

Speaker 3 And right, fraught is a great word for it and then but then after that or even around that i think i dated a number of people who had kind of the opposite thing where i felt like i was the chaos element in the relationship where like

Speaker 3 yeah well i mean just because like i work nights i travel on weekends i like miss milestones i miss um and i was until we met i was in like a real struggle and strain place in my career where i was like is this gonna happen?

Speaker 3 Like, am I going to

Speaker 3 have this

Speaker 3 career that I'm kind of dreaming of come together in a way that feels like I'm, am I going to hit the benchmarks where I'm like, it's financially sustainable? It's like emotionally less grueling.

Speaker 3 And I, right before we met, was when I got my first like full-time job in TV.

Speaker 3 And so like, it wasn't even, it wasn't internal work as much as like the external thing I was looking for that I was like like really scrambling for and

Speaker 3 not maybe not being the best possible partner to other people I've dated. That resolved itself enough that I was like, oh, I can like exhale.

Speaker 3 And I was, I think, you know, I think just circum, by circumstance, I was ready to be a much more present partner.

Speaker 3 But I also think so much of it is that like Maris and I both, when we met, had like very busy separate lives. And

Speaker 3 so like, if I was out at night, it was like, well, she is also out at night. And, like, maybe we meet up after, or maybe we see each other tomorrow.
And, and that was like a really,

Speaker 3 you know, I think like having a life that is cozy and a relationship that is cozy and reciprocal and like loving without being like the kind of picket fence domesticity

Speaker 3 was something that was really is like really a beautiful, wonderful feature of my life and our relationship together.

Speaker 4 Well, it feels it sounds like that alchemy is working and that maybe adding a child would push the limits.

Speaker 30 And I could see, I mean, I could see for sure, especially when Josh was really on tour,

Speaker 30 I would imagine that I would do more of the care, even though that is not something that

Speaker 30 Josh would feel right about.

Speaker 3 And I am very maternal by nature, I would say.

Speaker 3 I think I'd make a pretty good mom.

Speaker 4 Probably better. But you may not even be encouraged to go on tour yourself, Maris.

Speaker 30 Yeah, I mean, and that's, that's true.

Speaker 4 Because that's, it does, it does land with us, you know, the moms

Speaker 4 a lot of time.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I, and I think like, I am, and this is maybe a selfish thing to say, but like, I am pretty like career motivated and like not just career, but like I like the creative exploration.

Speaker 3 You know what I mean? It's not just like, oh, I'm going to die at my desk like an auto executive in the 80s. It's just like, oh, this is like fun and exciting to get to do.

Speaker 3 And I have these opportunities that I really like. And like, often it's really fun for Maris to come.
And sometimes it's not because I'm going to a place that she doesn't. care to get up at 6 a.m.

Speaker 4 to get on a plane to go to.

Speaker 3 And so like that kind of stuff, like

Speaker 3 taking that from being like, this is fun. It's how I earn a living.

Speaker 3 i'll get another writing gig down the line and that will like replenish some savings and give us a little bit of a cushion goes from oh this is like really fun and exciting and i can be creative to like fuck i get to sell a tv show so i got to think of some idea that some idiot executive will buy and like you know i think it would put a pressure on the creative work that would make it be like well why don't i just get a job that you just show up and then they give you money and then you show up the next day and they give you a little more money right same all the while.

Speaker 4 All the while trying to create a person who doesn't have that problem.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And it's, you know, I, I taught little kids for years and, and that was my wait, say more, what, what, when?

Speaker 4 Oh, sorry. Yeah, no, that's okay.

Speaker 3 I taught pre-K

Speaker 3 for four years after college and I tutored that period and then another couple of years, two and another two and a half years after I.

Speaker 4 I'm so jealous. I love that age.

Speaker 3 Oh, it's great. It was so fun.

Speaker 3 It's really fun. We have like little neighbor, our upstairs neighbors have little kids and they're just like so cute and precious.
And like, I think both of us, like the,

Speaker 3 we had, I think this stopped, but we had a neighbor at one point who whistled when they went up and down the stairs and it drove

Speaker 4 theirs up a wall.

Speaker 3 But we have these two little kids that are like kind of up and down the stairs, you know, going to school, going on errands, yes, singing really loud at 8 a.m. And like, it's just so cute.

Speaker 4 And we, I think we both feel that way. Yes.

Speaker 3 And so I worked with little kids. I,

Speaker 3 almost all my work experience before graduation was like an assistant at summer programs and camps and stuff.

Speaker 3 So that was like a big part of it.

Speaker 3 But it just, it honestly was like, oh, I bet comedy writing and performance at the level, I can get to a level where that is a more sustainable career because it's like, I'm never going to make enough money on my own to like own a home or to retire doing this job.

Speaker 3 So that is like a weird feeling. We're like, oh, I'm in the entertainment industry for the stability.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And I think, and I think a child of our own would also like tip that balance back out of whack for sure.

Speaker 4 For sure.

Speaker 3 My dad, when I was like, I think probably like early 20s, he was a, he was just retiring. He worked as a glazer for like 40 years.

Speaker 3 So he did like glass storefronts largely, like big, he worked in construction with glass. And he was like, he was doing like, oh, there's a new new Barnes and Noble.
So he's installing the windows.

Speaker 3 So it was like a real, a very skilled super, like he was really good at it, worked really hard at it. It was like, I don't know what you're going to do, but like, don't do this.

Speaker 3 He's like, it has been so hard on my body. And it like, you know, he, I don't think he has regrets.

Speaker 3 Like he, he was really good at his job and I think really enjoyed much of the work, you know, not necessarily being outside in Boston.

Speaker 4 Well, personal regrets and our wishes for our children often get mixed up. Yes.

Speaker 3 That's such a great, that's such a great way to put it because I don't think he was like, I personally regret this, but I think he was like, I, I think there's a life for you without this, the specific strains that I have taken on.

Speaker 4 Well, that's a good segue into another point I wanted to bring up, which is that I get in trouble

Speaker 4 for saying that if I were

Speaker 4 so audience, just so you know, I have the perfect child. She's amazing and perfect.
And so like, don't even,

Speaker 4 don't even bother having another one because it's already done.

Speaker 3 Um, which is what you would have told your mom, too.

Speaker 4 Yeah, right. Seriously,

Speaker 4 nailed it,

Speaker 4 closing down shopping. Got it in one.
Yeah. Yeah.
Um, but I do get in trouble for saying I, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't.

Speaker 4 And I say this as I'm looking at a picture of my perfect daughter on the wall in my office, but I, I, I mostly say that to people without children.

Speaker 4 Um, that, you know, in hindsight, like my life has changed so drastically that I don't recognize it a lot of the time.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And in the midst of that, I'm trying to teach another person how to be a person.

Speaker 4 But I do, I do get shit for it. Like, you're kidding.
You would do it all over. I'm like, I don't,

Speaker 4 I don't know if I would.

Speaker 4 I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would be the window glazer.
if I had a tito over.

Speaker 4 I have to, I guess I have to live out my fantasy by telling my child, you don't have to have kids, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I think, like, I don't know, it feels to me, and maybe this is like, maybe you are not asking for this answer, but like, that's, to me, that's very understandable.
And it's also like,

Speaker 3 I think

Speaker 3 a lot of people

Speaker 3 have, it seems like many people have kids because it's the normal thing to do, like the standard societal thing to do, and not because they're like,

Speaker 3 this completes what i am missing in life or this is a joy that i want to know and and can't imagine life without experiencing and i think like there are so many reasons to have a child but i think there are also a lot of bad reasons and also in america now pressure yes pressure but in america now it's like so hard like we're gonna go extinct yeah no

Speaker 3 we're not talking natalism.

Speaker 3 I mean, sort of, but also, what I'm saying is, also, there are, there is so much, um, it is legislatively and medically more difficult now than it used to be to not have a child in many cases.

Speaker 4 Totally. I mean, look, I make a whole show about abortion and how important it is.
Yeah.

Speaker 31 Going online without ExpressVPN is like not having a case for your phone.

Speaker 31 Most of the time, you'll probably be fine, but all it takes is one drop, and you'll wish you spent those extra few dollars on a case. ExpressVPN is super secure.

Speaker 31 I use it on programs that I make that could maybe, you know, get hacked into. And it's really easy to use.
Fire up the app, click one button, and you're protected. And it's at its lowest price ever.

Speaker 31 Plans start at just $3.49 a month. That's $3.49 a month.
12 cents a day. As listeners of the dream, you know we look into politicians quite a bit and scammy things within the government.

Speaker 31 So I end up using a VPN quite a bit to do research, to contact people. It just keeps me feeling more secure with my reporting.

Speaker 31 Select plans include Identity Defender, a new suite of tools to get your data removed from data brokers, alert you when your data appears on the dark web, and even insure you against data theft for up to $1 million.

Speaker 31 Secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com slash the dream. That's expressvpn.com slash the dream to find out how you can get up to four extra months.
Expressvpn.com slash the dream.

Speaker 4 It's that time of year again. The holidays are coming fast.
And if your kids are anything like mine, that wish list is getting pretty long. Let's Let's be honest.

Speaker 4 Some of the things on that list make us stop and think, like a smartphone. Do they actually need all that stuff to stare at? Well, no, they don't.
Just get them a gab. I got one for my kid.

Speaker 4 It has tracking, which I only look at every once in a while because I don't like to spy on her. It has a phone number, very helpful.
And it has a list of people you can text that I approve.

Speaker 4 Plus, I can spy on the text, which I don't do. Haven't had to yet.
But if something weird comes in on one of those texts, I do get a notification.

Speaker 4 And then I look and it's just some dumb YouTube makeup video that the Gab phone doesn't let you watch.

Speaker 4 So win, win, win, win, win, win. I love it.
Gab offers phones and watches made just for kids. No internet, no social media, and just the right features for their age.

Speaker 4 Kids want phones to feel independent and connected. And as parents, we want to know they're safe.
With Gab, you can have both and protect them from the scary stuff.

Speaker 4 With Gab's Tech and Steps approach, kids get the right tech at the right time.

Speaker 4 From watches with GPS tracking for the youngest explorers to the perfect first phone with no internet or social media to the teen phones with parent-approved apps.

Speaker 4 So get ready for a Christmas morning they'll never forget, the one where they get their first phone. And really, it's a gift for you too, because these kid-save phones will give you peace of mind.

Speaker 4 Visit gab.com slash the dream and use code the dream for a special holiday offer. That's gabb.com/slash the dream.
Gab, tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for you.

Speaker 2 You know what's wild? Most people are still overpaying for car insurance just because it's a pain to switch. That's why there's Jerry.

Speaker 2 Jerry's the only app that compares rates from over 50 insurers in minutes and helps you switch fast with no spam calls or hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year.

Speaker 2 Before you renew your car insurance policy, do yourself a favor. Download the Jerry app or head to jerry.ai slash Acast.

Speaker 33 If you're a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Granger knows knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible.

Speaker 33 So, when a conveyor motor falters, Granger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem.

Speaker 33 With Granger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRANGER, clickgranger.com, or just stop by.

Speaker 4 Granger for the ones who get it done.

Speaker 4 I do think that the folklore, the romanticism,

Speaker 4 has outlived the utility, which drove most reproduction for all of humankind up until the Industrial Revolution, essentially.

Speaker 4 You know, we needed to, I could nerd off about this like forever, but the Black Death really

Speaker 4 created an environment where you needed to be married and be monogamous and have babies because everyone around you was dying and so we had to create this system

Speaker 4 and then we built up systems around that system to be like well actually it's virtuous actually

Speaker 4 you know

Speaker 4 maintaining your land keeping your property, passing down things to your heirs, all of that stuff is important. Otherwise, the species dies.
And

Speaker 4 politicians now are invoking that as if that's what's happening right now with birth rates.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Wild. Yeah.
That's,

Speaker 3 it's like, it's ridiculous.

Speaker 3 And it's, and it's also that, you know, this isn't a unique thought, but bringing this up about birth rates while keeping people out of the country and kicking people out of the country really ruthlessly.

Speaker 3 And so it's like, I don't think there is

Speaker 3 that,

Speaker 3 I don't feel that compulsion of like, who, but who will till the soil in my old age

Speaker 3 about kids.

Speaker 30 Josh has a really good joke

Speaker 30 about that, which that I put in my book

Speaker 30 about

Speaker 30 not needing a

Speaker 30 someone to inherit an heir.

Speaker 4 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 Right. People say, I think I also have probably less appetite for legacy than most people.

Speaker 3 I have like a pretty firm idea of like, when I'm dead, whatever happens after that regarding me does not matter. Um, other than like the people I love being sad, but I'm not like

Speaker 4 right

Speaker 4 if I'm not there to experience it, it didn't happen.

Speaker 4 Yeah, is how I feel

Speaker 4 about parties.

Speaker 30 And and and Josh at the end of that bit says, and we live in a two-bedroom apartment in Brooklyn that we that we rent,

Speaker 30 so like

Speaker 30 the IKEA furniture could be yours if it holds up until you're born and then grow old, you know?

Speaker 4 Like, yeah.

Speaker 3 But it's like, yeah, right. I don't have a lot of like, but, but who will carry on the jeans? Like, it's just not a thing for me.

Speaker 4 Um, what I've noticed is we've been talking for almost an, let's say, an hour and 15 now.

Speaker 4 And neither of you have had to say, like, anything about

Speaker 4 the baby waking up, putting the baby down for a nap, getting the baby, leaving work for the baby, the person that you have to drive around.

Speaker 4 Like, I'm so, the freedom. I know you can't feel it because you're inside it.
Sure.

Speaker 3 I super feel it.

Speaker 30 I get it. I can nap whenever I want.
That's a huge

Speaker 3 thing. So we, this is something that we've talked about, but not for a long time, which was when we got a dog.

Speaker 3 I think people think a lot of the time getting a pet is like an on-ramp, like a training wheels for a baby.

Speaker 3 And we got the dog and we're like, this is plenty. That we're full.

Speaker 30 And in fact, our dog was old. And so we, we kind of felt like it was good practice for taking care of aging people rather than babies.

Speaker 4 Well, and also

Speaker 3 when our dog,

Speaker 3 when Busy, our previous dog,

Speaker 3 she, when she got very old, she would have to go out in the middle of the night. And it was, you know, we were like, this, of course, we'll do this, my beloved pet.

Speaker 3 But I was like, I think there was a little grumbling of like, if this is what we knew we were signing up for, we might as well kind of get.

Speaker 30 And then I would tell my friends about it, and they'd be like, well, my daughter sleeps through the night.

Speaker 4 She's four.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Is there anything that you are a little bit jealous of in terms of, you know, watching your parent friends? Or

Speaker 4 like, is there some part of you that has a little bit of a string tugging at your heart?

Speaker 30 I mean, for sure. Like,

Speaker 30 first school play, first, like, all of these milestones. Like, I

Speaker 30 am a little jealous of that.

Speaker 3 And I do, I, like, have a real appreciation for like the idea of just your capacity for love and care being. exploded like into into this new vastness.
I think that's like really beautiful.

Speaker 3 And I love when I see other people experiencing that and I'm so glad for them. But to me, I, it just doesn't feel

Speaker 3 like I have so much, I would have so much fear attached to that as well.

Speaker 4 And I, yeah. Like responsibility?

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, responsibility and like the anxiety over like, I hope, like, I'm just too, I'm too tender and squeamish, I think.
And I'm just like,

Speaker 3 I would worry all day, every day. And I think like

Speaker 3 taking the lid off of how much love you can have in your life in that way feels like a Pandora's box of like terrorism.

Speaker 4 100%.

Speaker 30 And yeah, I'm an anxious person anyway.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 30 yeah, it's enough to take care of the top of the.

Speaker 3 But it's, yeah, it's not like I... Sorry, I interrupted you.

Speaker 4 No, okay, go ahead.

Speaker 3 It's not like I see people with kids and go like, every moment of this looks like agony. Like, it's certainly not that.
It's just like that on balance, it just feels like the, the,

Speaker 3 I have so much love and joy in my life, and I have like

Speaker 3 a selfishness about the other stuff that I just am like, I don't want to give this up.

Speaker 4 The dream is a production of Little Everywhere. Our tip line is 323-248-1488 if you want to tell your story.

Speaker 1 Why choose a sleep number smart bed?

Speaker 2 Can I make my site softer?

Speaker 3 Can I make my site firmer?

Speaker 4 Can we sleep cooler?

Speaker 1 Sleep number does that. Cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side.
Your sleep number setting. Enjoy personalized comfort for better sleep night after night.

Speaker 1 It's our Black Friday sale. Recharged this season with a bundle of cozy, soothing comfort.
Now only $17.99 for our C2 mattress and base plus free premium delivery.

Speaker 1 Price is higher in Alaska and Hawaii. Check it out at a sleep number store or sleepnumber.com today.

Speaker 34 If you're a smoker or vapor, ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason. But with Zen nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Speaker 34 Zin is America's number one nicotine pouch brand. Plus, Zin offers a robust rewards program.
There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zin.

Speaker 34 Check out Zinn.com/slash find to find Zinn at a store near you.

Speaker 34 Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

Speaker 7 Rediscover skin that looks as vibrant as you feel.

Speaker 6 Medicate is a British clinical skincare brand trusted by dermatologists for visible age-defying results without compromise.

Speaker 13 And right now is the best time of the year to try it.

Speaker 16 Medicate's 30% off during their Black Friday sale.

Speaker 17 If you've been curious about retinol, start with Medicate's Crystal Retinol Night Serum.

Speaker 22 It's award-winning, ultra-gentle, and proven to work 11 times faster than traditional retinol, smoothing wrinkles, brightening dark spots, and firming skin without irritation.

Speaker 6 Or try the fan favorite liquid peptide serum, clinically proven to smooth fine lines in just seven days.

Speaker 11 And if you want that lifted, deeply hydrated feel, Medicaid's newest innovation, Advanced Pro Collagen Plus Peptide Cream, delivers visibly rejuvenated skin while reducing wrinkles.

Speaker 26 This is the moment to elevate your routine.

Speaker 10 Medicate's 30% off Black Friday sale is happening now through Tuesday, December 2nd.

Speaker 24 Visit medicate.us, that's M-E-D-I-K-8.us, and save 30% on age-defying skincare.

Speaker 4 Hey, dream listeners, it's finally here. The dream plus, where you can get every single episode of our show with no ads.
It's $5 a month. It's the only tier.
No commercials. Plus, bonus content.

Speaker 4 This helps keep us independent. And your contribution will help change the way every listener hears the dream.
We'll be able to take out the ads that we don't even know are getting put into this show.

Speaker 4 which is annoying to both you and us. We're also going to have an amazing discussion board.
The interface has it cataloged under AMA, Ask Me Anything. But I don't love rules.

Speaker 4 So, what I did is started a bunch of threads like ask Dan and I questions, general chit chat, just to make friends and stuff.

Speaker 4 And every time I've been in charge of a discussion board, I've made a tab called Women Be Shopping, and it's there. And we're just going to talk about what we bought.
It'll be fun.

Speaker 4 That's the dream.s-u-p-e-r-c-a-s-t dot com. Supercast.
Please, please go subscribe. It's five bucks.
It's less than a latte if you live in Los Angeles. See you there.