DINKS

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That's why a State Farm agent is there to help you choose a coverage option that's right for you.

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And State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage you need.

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Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

Ever feel like you're carrying something heavy and don't know where to put it down?

Or wonder what on earth you're supposed to do when you just can't seem to cope?

I'm Hesu Joe, a licensed therapist with years of experience providing individual and family therapy, and I've teamed up with BetterHelp to create Mind If We Talk, a podcast to demystify what therapy is really about.

In each episode, you'll hear guests talk about struggles we all face, like living with grief or managing anger.

Then, we break it all down with a fellow mental health professional to give you actionable tips you can apply to your own life.

Follow and listen to Mind If We Talk on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And don't forget, your happiness matters.

I'm Maris Kreisman, and

I'm Josh Gondelman, and we are married to each other.

Yes.

I'm Jane Marie, and this is The Dream.

The name of this show is kind of a joke, because the idea of living the dream is kind of a joke.

And most of the time, we could call our program the nightmare, but not today.

Today's guests are friends of mine who are living a version of the dream that I think a lot of us find enviable and fascinating.

They made a very simple choice with radical consequences in terms of their personal happiness and well-being.

Tell me a little more about you.

Like, what do you do?

Where are you?

Etc.

I have a book out now called I Want to Burn This Place Down.

It's an essay collection about all of the

yes.

I mean, look around, right?

And I have a newsletter called The Maris Review, and you can find it just by going to MarisKravesman.com.

Great.

Yeah.

And that's our pug Maggie, who's scratching on the carpet a little bit, which is not a usual Maggie proclivity.

I'm Josh, and I'm a writer and comedian.

I've worked in television on late night shows like Last Week Tonight with John Oliver and Desis and Merrow.

I've written a book.

I do a lot of stand-up.

I have a new special out called Positive Reinforcement.

And I also write a newsletter, but writer comedian, I think is the headline of what I do.

Pug Dad.

Pug mom.

Celtics fan, like just

Boston expat.

Yeah.

Josh left out one thing.

For all of you avid public radio listeners, Josh's voice may sound familiar.

He's one of the regular guests on Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me.

Yeah, we're jealous, Josh.

But wait, wait, there's more.

I wanted to invite you both on because I think you are living a dream, at least a dream I once had

of being a dink, which I thought was like a rude thing when my mom would say it when we were growing up.

But now I'm like, oh, she was just jealous.

Living in a dual income, no kids household is what that stands for.

And

obviously this season, we're branching out and doing different things outside of pyramid schemes and wellness and such, and just exploring different corners of the American dream and what that's supposed to look like.

And so I wanted to talk to you about what life is like as a married couple who've been together for a while and don't have nor seem to be itching to possess children.

Possess children is such a good way to put that.

Well, I mean, having them implies that someone's body gets like ripped apart, but I feel like getting them

or possessing

acquiring a child is kind of what everyone does, whether or not their body is part of that equation.

So

would you say that that's a correct assessment?

Do you think that's a correct assessment of where you're at?

Yeah, I think that's a

great description.

We have been married for eight years and together for 11.

And we don't possess any children and we don't have any

designs on acquiring any.

Our dog is very lucky.

She has a lot of attention paid to her.

So if she was hoping to get up to no good, it would be difficult for her because we focus all our parental energy on that.

Oh, well, good for Maggie.

How did you meet?

We had a mutual friend who brought Josh to a party I was throwing.

It's an extremely 2014 set of circumstances, which is a friend that we both just met brought me to a party that Maris had

thrown to celebrate the five-year anniversary of her very popular Tumblr blog.

Wait, what?

Yep.

First of all, Maris, good for you.

You are just living it all over the place.

Yeah, we just started dating right away.

We got along.

right away at the party and like went on our first date maybe three days later and then just like continued to date through

uh a wedding and living together and moving apartments and yeah we we moved in together we waited to get married but we moved in together pretty quickly well it was all like to me it felt like pretty structured at like one year marks where like we moved in together right around a year of dating like 13 months maybe we got engaged a year after that on like our anniversary and then got married just over a year after that.

So it all, you know, none of it, we were together for three years when we got married, but we knew at two years that we were going to get married.

Yes.

I love the kind of romances where you meet and then you just kind of never stop hanging out.

Yeah, that's how it was.

It was really lovely.

Like, it just, I don't know, I always just felt like, oh, this is great.

And it's always more fun when Maris is around.

Oh,

you still feel that way?

Patted my hand twice.

I do, yeah.

Good.

Good.

It's pretty lovely.

I mean, the comedian Phil Hanley has this joke that I always think about where he says, and I think he's recorded this and put on specials years ago.

So I don't feel bad because it is such a clarifying sentiment that I feel like people should hear it of like, they say when you meet the right person, you know right away.

How come when it's the wrong person, it takes a year and a half?

Yeah.

When I'm watching, I'm in the middle of watching the new Love Island

and I feel that way at watching everybody.

I'm like, it should not be this hard.

Like, what is the amount of work you're putting into this complete stranger?

Not just like to get them to like you, but to even be able to tolerate them.

Right.

My mom always used to say, when you meet the right person, it'll be easy.

And I was just like, stop lying, mom.

That's not a thing.

Did you have conversations early on?

So it sounds like you moved in after a year, you got engaged after two, and then kind of the rest is history, right did you have conversations about what your togetherness would look like what your relationship would look like kind of in the mid to long run um

when josh asked me to marry him

i

made sure that he understood that i didn't want to have kids

Yeah, that was like the biggest conversation that we had was that night.

And I

that night, the first night?

No, no, no, when we got engaged.

Oh,

okay.

We talked about it.

Like in like real, in real sincerity, I think that was like the kind of moment of like, oh, this, this isn't, at the very least,

if we do end up acquiring a child, we're going third party.

It'll be down the line.

And yeah, that's, I think that's, that was established like certainty, in certainty when we got engaged.

But I think we'd talked about it before.

We must have.

Like neither of us, I think we both are,

I remember both of our stances, like up until that point being like, I, you know, I, I'm not in a rush to do it.

It's not something that feels pressing or missing from my life.

It, it's not like the puzzle piece that completes the picture of like a happy and thriving life and relationship.

And I had always,

I had always had bad luck in love.

And so always thought, like, I, I am, I can't even consider this.

Like, I can barely afford my studio apartment.

What am I going to do?

And then when Josh and I got into a stable relationship,

I realized that I still didn't feel compelled.

Oh, that's so interesting.

Yeah.

That is interesting.

Say more about that.

Like you, you, had you been thinking up until that point, like, well,

when the circumstances are right.

Yeah.

And like,

there's, I never, when I was a kid, thought I wasn't going to have kids.

Like, I was going to do every single thing regular people did and regular people have kids.

And so I wasn't going to deny myself of that.

And

sometimes I still can't believe how revolutionary this feels

that I've chosen something so not normal.

Well, you know what's funny is that doing the normal things that normal people do is sort of my,

well i always put it like i want the breadth of the human experience

but i did not grow up being like baby hungry i've never had that um that itch have you ever had that at any point in your life maris to like put a baby inside of your body

i have had the itch to hold babies and rock babies and stuff, but no, not a baby inside my body.

No.

And I've also specifically, like, I used to work with little kids.

I love babies and kids, but I've specifically always been like mortified by the idea of making someone grow a baby inside them.

It just felt like such a cruel thing to do to another person's human body.

I also want to mention that I have type 1 diabetes, and I know plenty of type 1 diabetics who've had very successful pregnancies.

But I grew up in the age of Steel Magnolias

where Julia Roberts was told that she could not have a baby or else she would die.

And what happens?

She dies.

Sorry.

Spoiler alert.

Spoiler alert from the 80s, guys.

Well, this was also, I remember that being like a really big part of our conversation in Philadelphia when we got engaged.

You saying like this would just be so hazardous to my body.

And I don't think it's anything that I want to take on necessarily.

And I was like, oh, yeah, for sure.

We can always, we can always seek out a baby if we want a baby down the line.

And, you know, nine, nine years later, it hasn't come up that we're like, God, we got to find a baby.

We just found a baby.

Right.

Her name's Maggie, and she's a pug.

She's a pug.

Yeah.

I have to say, my mom told me to just get a dog.

So she was.

Ouch, mom.

I know, but she was right.

And I think, like, I don't, I never felt like a lot of pressure from my parents like I think we had like a brief talk about it at one point and I know I think they would really I think I make great grandparents.

I think they're great parents and uh

but it's yeah, I think you know, I really offloaded that pressure to my sister who also does not currently have children.

So here's here's the thing that I remember most.

I went to my endocrinologist

and she knew that I was getting married.

And she so she said, are you going to have babies?

And I said, I don't, I don't think so.

And she, more than anyone, should know like what's involved in type 1 diabetes and pregnancy.

And she said,

well, does he know?

And I said, yeah, of course he knows.

We've discussed this.

And she says, but what if he changes his mind?

And you're like, do you know something I don't know?

I guess that's a familiar trope.

But I mean, I really, what is the answer?

Like, well, then he can just go have a baby.

baby elsewhere.

You know, like, we'll get divorced for one of the hundred reasons people get divorced.

Yeah.

Right.

I think that's a, that's like a weird thing to propose

as like, I don't know.

We've, we've talked about it.

We've, we have an, an understanding and a loving marriage.

And if like any fundamental principle of our marriage would, be to change unexpectedly that would i think be destabilizing to the both of us

Right.

I mean, that is, that is, yeah, where I was going to go next is like, well, people change.

Things, circumstances change.

Life happens to you.

And the idea that you're never going to be a different person within like a lifelong relationship is weird to me.

Yeah.

I think, I think

ideally, and ideally, right, a marriage can like withstand a capacity for change.

And I think that's like a really beautiful thing.

And I, and I, but I don't think, you know, the people I've known who have gotten divorced because there have been new circumstances or just growing apart after a long time.

It's like, I don't look at them and be like, oh, those failures who couldn't stay static or couldn't like absorb the another person's dynamism.

You know, I think that that's like part of what life is.

And like, you want both people to be happy in the long term.

And I think we, we are like, it seems, you know, we, we're very long-term compatible as like the, what it feels like now and what the hope is.

Yeah.

Do you, did you both come from big families?

I have two older brothers and they both have kids.

So a lot of pressure was taken off from me, even, even with that.

And I'm the older brother and I have one younger sister.

And I think it is kind of like the expectation, I think, would be on me to go first.

How old are you guys?

I forget.

I'm 46.

And I'm 40.

Okay.

So, Marius, you and I are the same age.

I mean, I'm 47, not to brag, but

I'm close.

She made it.

Yeah.

There's still plenty of time.

I mean, I live in LA where people have kids in their 60s.

So

you know, there's lots of time.

What when people, are there people around you close to you, either in proximity or emotionally, who have had babies recently?

Yes.

Yeah, lots.

And what are your thoughts?

Imagine you have this like pillow talk after you visit them, the baby going like,

we just get to go to sleep tonight.

We're not going to be up nursing all night like they are.

I think that's

we hang out with baby Lulu and she is charming and delightful and we enjoy our couple of hours with her.

Totally.

And then we go home satisfied.

Yeah, that is a couple of hours usually is enough baby in the day for us.

But like, I don't know.

I think, I also do think it's really beautiful to see friends or family members who like really wanted this as part of their life to feel really

happy and

engaged and

like

just this like love, like a new love in their life in this way.

I think that's really special to observe.

And I'm always really like blown away by that joy when I see it in other people.

Yeah.

But it doesn't overcome you.

No.

Not to the point of like wanting it for myself, but it's it's like overcoming like beautiful music is overcoming where I'm not like, I gotta play the bassoon, but I'm like, wow, it's amazing that this feeling exists and you can, you can see it and feel it.

Yeah.

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Checking off the boxes on your to-do list is a great feeling.

That's why a State Farm agent is there to help you choose a coverage option that's right for you.

Whether you're getting a new house, car, boat, or RV, helping protect it is important.

And State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage you need, whether you prefer talking in person, on the phone, or using the award-winning app.

And with so many coverage options, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs so you can continue to focus on what's most important to you.

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

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Granger for the ones who get it done.

Ever feel like you're carrying something heavy and don't know where to put it down?

Or wonder what on earth you're supposed to do when you just can't seem to cope?

I'm Hesu Joe, a licensed therapist with years of experience providing individual and family therapy, and I've teamed up with BetterHelp to create Mind If We Talk, a podcast to demystify what therapy is really about.

In each episode, you'll hear guests talk about struggles we all face, like living with grief or managing anger.

Then, we break it all down with a fellow mental health professional to give you actionable tips you can apply to your own life.

Follow and listen to Mind If We Talk on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And don't forget, your happiness matters.

What are the things that you are doing in life or could do later that like probably

wouldn't be possible if you had a small person in your home?

Do you guys have a vacation spot that you like to go to?

Are you spontaneous?

Like, are you doing, I'm imagining just this like carefree coupledom?

I, I think a real freedom that we have is like, we, it's little stuff.

It's like, I, I would say we're pretty spontaneous like day to day, though.

Yeah.

Where it's like, oh, it's such a beautiful night.

Let's just go and the two of us will have dinner and a couple drinks and we'll take a walk.

And like, these are all things that like people can do with kids.

Um, but you know, I do think we're, there's a little more flexibility and there's also a little more like, I think there's a little more professional risk that we can absorb.

Yes.

Oh my God, I was just going to ask you.

That's the big one.

And because I do think, you know, we travel a bunch and I travel a lot, which I think would be a lot harder.

It would be a lot harder to do that kind of professional travel that I do if, and that Maris has coming up for her book tour, if

we had to like think about childcare as well, you know?

But it definitely, there's like a level of, oh, we don't have to save to put a kid through college.

We don't have to buy, you know, supplies for a kid.

Like, it's just kind of like, there's, there's two mouths to feed and we're both working towards feeding them.

And plus a pug mouth, but, you know, she's not a big eater.

But you can be pickier in how you find the money to feed your mouths.

Yes, 100%.

And when we got married, I went freelance for the first time.

Like, I had never had the freedom to do that.

And I started making much less money than I had been making in my regular day-to-day jobs.

And it was, that felt like freedom for sure.

I had always

done a little writing on the side.

But until I married Josh and

went on his health insurance, I couldn't just be a writer.

And that is what that allowed me to do.

And we've, I think we've both had periods of like more and less work in creative fields over the past eight years.

Like it kind of ebbs and flows.

And I think like we haven't really come up against

a terrible dry spell or a terrible challenge, you know.

Oh, no, like we,

neither of us fortunately have had like a medical emergency that has caused

extra finance that we're like, oh, we, even if we start earning and building back up savings again, again, we still have to like just tread water so much harder to like pay for school and to, if we want to go out for three hours, we have to get child care or,

you know, I think we, we both have, there are many evenings where we're both doing either work events or seeing friends separately or seeing friends together.

And we, I think we're like pretty bustling in terms of like.

social life and like the the blend of social and work life as well, right?

Like we're, you know, a lot of nights, it's like, oh, I'll go out and do a show, but I don't have to like come home to relieve the babysitter.

So I can just like stay out and hang out with friends for a couple hours and you can be in bed and relaxed and not worried.

And like that, that kind of stuff.

Like it's just, oh my God, relaxed and not worried.

Yeah.

I mean, like, as not to put you on blast, but like your best approximation, Maris, of relaxed and not worried.

Thank you.

Of course.

What did you learn in previous relationships that brought you

to be?

So

you guys are like my ideal couple in that you're both industrious and seem to like each other a lot and aren't

when I said a relaxed and not worry just now, of course, I was talking about like when I feel worried about my daughter, but I'm also.

I've also been in a string of relationships where I'm worried about them or like, you know, oh, am I staying out too late?

Am I going to get in trouble?

Like, it seems like you guys are solid in that arena.

Did you learn anything in your past relationships that led you to be like

this compatible, I guess, or, or

understanding of one another's,

you know?

From my perspective,

we both had something similar in that we had dated people who

What is the correct way to put this?

I don't know what you're going to say, so I don't, I can't be of any help yet.

We're a lot.

Like, had a lot of people who were a lot.

Say more.

And

we were the kind of

rocks.

Oh, interesting.

Because I also, I feel the opposite about some of my previous.

We'll see.

But go, I want to hear what you have to say.

And then I'd like to, yeah.

It sort of goes back to, again, what my mom would say, like, find some nice lawyer.

You don't need a creative person.

You just like someone who you could have a life with.

And that always sounded so disgusting to me.

And I wanted drama and I wanted emotion.

And

it was not until I met Josh where I felt like, oh, feeling like you're going to cry all the time is actually bad

yeah Maris did you have to do work on that though for yourself like to be chill enough to

you know to be in this like did you

no I

I wrote a piece 10 years ago about how I met Josh because I got lucky, not because I worked on myself, not because I really changed anything about my approach.

It's just like

I I found him and we

clicked and we had similar attitudes about life.

And suddenly this is what I wanted to.

Like I was just like ready to

not have

so much angst in my life.

You were, what, 30?

35.

35.

That's it.

Yeah, that's about the time you wanted to all the bullshit to stop.

Josh, what about you?

I think, I, you know, I think I understand what you're talking about.

Yeah, I think in the, a long time ago, I had dated people that were like very intense and there was like a tempestuousness to things at times.

And I definitely had that maxim in my head of like relationships are work and they're, they're hard.

And I, I think, like, work doesn't mean hard.

Like, work means like you care about the other person and you take them into account and you you know you're invested in their happiness and they're not just like riding sidecar on your journey but it doesn't mean like

things have to be

difficult and right fraud is a great word for it and then but then after that or even around that i think i dated a number of people who had kind of the opposite thing where I felt like I was the chaos element in the relationship where like

yeah well I mean just because like I work nights I travel on weekends I like miss milestones I miss um and I was until we met I was in like a real struggle and strain place in my career where I was like is this gonna happen like am I going to

have this

this career that I'm kind of dreaming of come together in a way that feels like I'm am I gonna hit the benchmarks where I'm like it's financially sustainable it's like emotionally less grueling.

And I, right

before we met, was when I got my first like full-time job in TV.

And so, like, it wasn't even, it wasn't internal work as much as like the external thing I was looking for that I was like really scrambling for and

not maybe not being the best possible partner to other people I've dated that resolved itself enough that I was like, oh, I can like exhale.

And I was, I think, you know, I think just circum by circumstance, I I was ready to be a much more present partner.

But I also think so much of it is that, like, Maris and I both, when we met, had like very busy, separate lives.

And

so, like, if I was out at night, it was like, well, she is also out at night.

And, like, maybe we meet up after, or maybe we see each other tomorrow.

And, and that was like a really,

you know, I think like having a life that is cozy and a relationship that is cozy and reciprocal and like loving without being like the kind of picket fence domesticity

was something that was really is like really a beautiful, wonderful feature of my life and our relationship together.

Well, it feels it sounds like that alchemy is working and that maybe adding a child would push the limits.

And I could see, I mean, I could see for sure, especially when Josh was really on tour,

I would imagine that I would do more of the care, even though that is not something that Josh would feel right about.

And I am very maternal by nature.

You are.

I think I'd make a pretty good mom.

Probably better.

But you may not even be encouraged to go on tour yourself, Maris.

Yeah.

I mean, and that's, that's true.

Because that's, it does, it does land with us, you know, the moms a lot of time.

Yeah.

And I, and I think like, I am, and this is maybe a selfish thing to say, but like, I am pretty like career motivated and like, not just career, but like, I like the creative exploration.

You know what I mean?

It's not just like, oh, I, I'm going to.

die at my desk like an auto executive in the 80s.

It's just like, oh, this is like fun and exciting to get to do.

And I have these opportunities that I really like.

And like often it's really fun for Maris to come.

And sometimes it's not because I'm going to a place that she doesn't care to get up at 6 a.m.

to get on a plane to go to.

And so like that kind of stuff, like go taking that from being like, this is fun.

It's how I earn a living.

I'll get another writing gig down the line and that will like replenish some savings and give us a little bit of a cushion goes from, oh, this is like really fun and exciting.

And I can be creative to like, fuck, I got to sell a TV show.

So I got to think of some idea that some idiot executive executive will buy.

And like, you know, I think it would put a pressure on the creative work that would make it be like, well, why don't I just get a job that you just show up and then they give you money and then you show up the next day and they give you a little more money.

Right.

Same.

All the while, all the while trying to create a person who doesn't have that problem.

Yeah.

And it's, you know, I taught little kids for years

and that was my wait.

Say more.

What?

When?

Oh, sorry.

Yeah.

No, that's okay.

I taught pre-K for four years after college and I tutored that period and then another couple of years,

another two and a half years after I...

I'm so jealous.

I love that age.

Oh, it was great.

It was so fun.

It's really fun.

We have like little neighbor, our upstairs neighbors have little kids, and they're just like so cute and precious.

And like, I think both of us, like the...

We had, I think this stopped, but we had a neighbor at one point who whistled when they went up and down the stairs and it drove

theirs up a wall.

But we have these two little kids that are like kind of up and down the stairs, you know, going to school, going on errands, yes, singing really loud at 8 a.m.

And like, it's just so cute.

And we, I think we both feel that way.

Yes.

And so I worked with little kids.

I,

almost all my work experience before graduation was like an assistant at summer programs and camps and stuff.

So that was like a big part of it, but it just, it honestly was like, oh, I bet comedy writing and performance at the level, I can get to a level where that is a more sustainable career because it's like, I'm never going to make enough money on my own to like own a home or to retire doing this job.

So that is like a weird feeling.

We're like, oh, I'm in the entertainment industry for the stability.

And I think, and I think a child of our own would also like.

tip that balance back out of whack for sure.

For sure.

My dad, when I was like, I think probably like early 20s, he was a, he was just retiring.

He worked as a glazer for like 40 years.

So he did like glass storefronts largely, like big, he worked in construction with glass.

And he was like, he was doing like, oh, there's a new Barnes and Noble.

So he's installing the windows.

So it was like a real, a very skilled super, like he was really good at it, worked really hard at it.

It was like, I don't know what you're going to do, but like, don't do this.

He's like, it has been so hard on my body.

And it like, you know, he, I don't think he has regrets.

Like he was really good at his job and I think really enjoyed much of the work, you know, not necessarily being outside in Boston.

Well, personal regrets and our wishes for our children often get mixed up.

Yes.

That's such a great, that's such a great way to put it because I don't think he was like, I personally regret this, but I think he was like, I think.

there's a life for you without this, the specific strains that I have taken on.

Well, there that's a good segue into another point i wanted to bring up which is that

i get in trouble um for saying that if i were

so audience just so you know i have the perfect child she's amazing and perfect and so like don't even

don't even bother having another one because it's already done um which is what you would have told your mom too yeah right seriously

nailed it

closing down shop had it in one yeah yeah um but i do get in trouble for saying i if i had it to do over, I wouldn't.

And I say this as I'm looking at a picture of my perfect daughter on the wall in my office.

But I mostly say that to people without children,

that, you know, in hindsight, like my life has changed so drastically that I don't recognize it a lot of the time.

Yeah.

And in the midst of that, I'm trying to teach another person how to be a person.

But I do, I do get shit for it.

Like, you're kidding.

You would do it all over i'm like i don't

i don't know if i would

i don't know if i would i don't know if i would be the window glazer if i had a to-do over

i have to i guess i have to live out my fantasy by telling my child you don't have to have kids you know or whatever

yeah and and i think like i don't know it feels to me maybe this is like maybe you are not asking for this answer, but like that's to me, that's very understandable.

And it's also like, I think

a lot of people

have, it seems like many people have kids because it's the normal thing to do, like the standard societal thing to do, and not because they're like, this completes what I am missing in life, or this is a joy that I

want to know and and can't imagine life without experiencing.

And I think like there are so many reasons to have a child, but I think there are also a lot of bad reasons.

And also in America now.

Pressure.

Yes, pressure.

But in America now, it's like so hard.

We're going to go extinct.

Yeah.

No.

We're not talking natalism.

I mean, sort of.

But also, what I'm saying is also there are, there is so much.

It is legislatively and medically more difficult now than it used to be to not have a child in many cases.

Totally.

I mean, look, I make a whole show about abortion and how important it is.

Yeah.

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I do think that the folklore,

the romanticism

has outlived the utility, which drove most reproduction for

all of humankind up until the Industrial Revolution, essentially.

You You know, we needed to, and I could nerd off about this like forever, but the Black Death really

created an environment where you needed to be married and be monogamous and have babies because everyone around you was dying.

And so we had to create this system.

And then we built up systems around that system to be like, well, actually, it's virtuous.

Actually,

you know,

maintaining your land, keeping your property, passing down things to your heirs, all of that stuff is important.

Otherwise, the species dies.

And

politicians now are invoking that as if that's what's happening right now with birth rates.

Yeah.

Wild.

Yeah, that's

it's like, it's ridiculous.

And it's, and it's also that, you know, this isn't a unique thought, but bringing this up about birth rates while keeping people out of the country and kicking people out of the country really ruthlessly.

And so it's like, I don't think there is

that,

I don't feel that compulsion of like, but who will till the soil in my old age

about kids.

Josh has a really good joke

about that, which that I put in my book

about

not needing

someone to inherit an heir.

Oh, yeah.

Right.

People say,

I think I also have probably less appetite for legacy than most people.

Um,

I have like a pretty firm idea of like, when I'm dead, whatever happens after that regarding me does not matter.

Um, other than like the people I love being sad, but I'm not like

right

if I'm not there to experience it, it didn't happen.

Yeah,

I feel about parties.

And, and, and Josh, at the end of that bit says, and we live in a two-bedroom apartment in Brooklyn that we that we rent

so, like

the IKEA furniture could be yours if it holds up until you're born and then grow old you know like yeah but it's like yeah right I don't have a lot of like but but who will carry on the jeans like it's just not a thing for me um what I've noticed is we've been talking for almost an

let's say an hour and 15 now

And neither of you have had to say like anything about

the baby waking up, putting the baby down for a nap, getting the baby, leaving work for the baby, the person that you have to drive around.

Like, I'm so the freedom.

I know you can't feel it because you're inside it.

Sure.

I super feel it.

I get it.

I can nap whenever I want.

That's a huge

thing.

So we, this is something that we've talked about, but not for a long time, which was when we got a dog.

I think people think a lot of the time getting a pet is like an on-ramp, like a training wheels for a baby.

And we got the dog and we're like, this is plenty.

That we're full.

And in fact, our dog was old.

And so we, we kind of felt like it was good practice for taking care of aging people rather than babies.

Well, and also starter babies.

When our dog, when our busy, our previous dog,

when she got very old, she would have to go out in the middle of the night.

And it was, you know, we were like, this, of course, we'll do this for our beloved pet.

But I was like, I think there was a little grumbling of like, if this is what we knew we were signing up for, we might as well have a kid.

And then I would tell my friends about it and they'd be like, well, my daughter sleeps through the night.

She's four.

Yeah.

Is there anything that you are a little bit jealous of in terms of, you know, watching your parent friends or their, like, is there some part of you that has a little bit of a

string tugging at your heart?

I mean, for sure, like,

first school play, first, like, all of these milestones, like, I,

I am a little jealous of that.

And I do, I, like, have a real appreciation for like the idea of just your capacity for love and care being exploded, like into

this new vastness.

I think that's like really beautiful.

And I love when I see other people experiencing that and I'm so glad for them.

But to me, I, it just doesn't feel like I have so much, I would have so much fear attached to that as well.

And I, yeah.

Like responsibility.

Yeah, well, responsibility and like the anxiety over like, I hope, like, I'm just too, I'm too tender and squeamish, I think.

And I'm just like, I, I would worry all day, every day.

And I think like the, like, taking the lid off of how much love you can have in your life in that way feels like a Pandora's box of like terrorism.

100%.

And yeah, I'm an anxious person anyway.

And, um,

yeah, it's enough to take care of the dog.

But it's, yeah, it's not like I, Sorry, I interrupted you.

No, okay, go ahead.

It's not like I see people with kids and go, like, every moment of this looks like agony.

Like, it's certainly not that.

It's just like that on balance, it just feels like

I have so much love and joy in my life, and I have like

a selfishness about the other stuff that I just am like, I don't want to give this up.

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