Why We Started Find Out (Plus Some Fun Off-Topic Topics)

Hey everybody, Tim here from the Find Out Podcast, and we're coming to you with the second episode that we recorded in person.

And this one, we wanted to kind of talk about why we're doing this in the first place, why it's so important for you to join with us, and how we can actually take back the Congress in 2026 and eventually the White House in 2028.

So stick around, and we're so glad you're with us.

Let's do it.

Hey, everybody.

Welcome back to the Find Out podcast.

It's a little different this time because we're actually all here together for the first time.

Some of us actually just met today when they walked into this house and the rest of us met yesterday.

So

we wanted to come together and talk about why we are doing all of this in the first place and also talk a little bit about why you're listening to us as well.

So over the next hour, this episode is going to be a little bit different.

We're sort of just going to be talking about why we're here.

and what we plan to do with the Find Out podcast, which as we were talking about earlier, maybe we should have done that with our first episode when there were no expectations and we had no idea who was watching uh and it turned out there are a lot of you so no pressure guys but let's talk about it why are we here and why are we doing this and i think we should start with zach since it was his idea in the first place hang on did we hit 300 000 have we hit 300 000 down 3000 oh yeah yeah okay it's a lot of people it's a lot of people this is not this is not a tick tock video with the 90 second runtime where you're watching it on the toilet and you're like ha ha and then you put your left to play while you while you brush your teeth.

Right, right.

This is a commitment.

You got to do a thing to listen for an hour or an hour and a half sometimes.

Well, and to put that into context, so we did some research before we started to see like what would it take to be in the top 25%?

What would it take to be in the top 1%?

And actually,

if you get like something like 120 downloads of one episode, that puts you in the top 25%

of all podcasts.

Yeah, because most podcasts actually die at the three episode mark because they're actually really hard to do.

So it's like Doge.

Yeah.

Three months and done.

Actually, I would say that the three episodes, they'd have more to show for than what Doge has done.

It didn't cost us that much money.

That's right.

And it didn't cost us really that much money.

And we got a 4.9 out of five star review on Apple, which out of like 1,700, it turns out that's a lot of podcast reviews.

I don't think Doge would hit a 4.9 out of 30.

4.9 out of 500, I think, would be about right proposers.

Yeah, but

for us, I think it's 5,000 downloads is the top 1%.

And we've now had 300,000.

Damn.

Who would have guessed?

So we're done then?

We're done.

That's it.

We've achieved everything.

We're done.

We fixed America.

Yeah, but why?

Okay.

So we just did a huge aside to ask, go back to Zach, and why did you have this idea to do this?

I mean, have you heard a conversation like this on the left before in podcasts?

Not really.

I just, I watch the right, and they do this all the time.

They just sit down and talk and they talk like themselves and they're not afraid to just be like unapologetically themselves.

The left feels like a fucking lecture all the time.

Let's not lecture.

Let's just have a conversation.

And like, it seems really simple to do it that way, but it's like, it's actually a really hard thing to do.

Most people feel like they have to go in and kind of curate what they're going to do or make sure they're not saying the wrong thing.

And that to me was the problem with the left in general is that they're so concerned about how things are going to come across.

Am I going to say the wrong thing?

Am I going to get canceled?

It's like, who gives a shit?

Let's have a conversation.

If we get canceled, we get canceled.

Hopefully it doesn't happen.

But so far, so good.

We're about 11 episodes in.

We haven't done it yet.

It may be coming.

I'm not sure.

It's going to be you.

Yeah, it definitely will be me.

Especially from the left.

There's no question.

If the right comes along, it's going to be you, though.

That's true.

Best, for sure.

But the right doesn't cancel.

Yeah.

How can they cancel the left?

Right.

They can have much of a leg to stand on.

Yeah.

They've been canceling the left since what Jesus, I suppose.

Not super concerned about.

I mean, I'm a little concerned about that.

Still.

but that's the whole premise is like, just talk like yourself about what's going on because like there's so many horrendous things going on.

And I feel like a lot of the conversation I get from the left side is just like looking at it like a lecture, like a TED talk.

And it's like, that doesn't activate anybody.

It keeps who's listening to you listening to you.

That's fine, but you're not getting anybody new.

And for us, being white men, like that was not necessarily by design.

And we started this, just happened to be who showed up.

But like, it became a truth of like white men are the worst group of like demographic for vote from a voting perspective.

not saying white men are terrible there's the cancel

white men are the worst

yeah you'll say we're the worst we got to fix it somewhere in this goddamn country that's for sure but but demographically voting i don't the numbers are horrendous for the left when it comes to like 70 65 70 of white men in the united states vote republicans consistently which means you walk into any state and seven out of 10 of the white guys you see are just that that guy yep and i think we can't have this conversation or or not voting at all right

right which is and I think part of that is a function of Democrats, progressives, liberals, whatever you want to call us, have become so scripted.

There's an inauthenticity problem.

And

every time that we get in front of a microphone, we sound like we came in with a plan.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a TED Talk treatment of everything.

Right.

And the Reg doesn't care.

They don't care.

I mean, what is wild about this podcast is like, I didn't know any of your names when I was like, sure, I'll do a podcast.

Like, I literally knew nothing about you guys.

Like, I watched your videos, right?

But, like, we didn't really have that much of a relationship.

We had like a WhatsApp group.

Yeah.

We amplified each other's content.

No, it was actually a signal, you know, just like the hackseth.

You know, yeah, I mean, I haven't gotten the war plans yet.

I feel left out.

So, if you guys are in on that, help me out.

But, um, but yeah, I mean, I think that a lot of people, when we launched this, there was a little bit of blowback because we are a bunch of white dudes.

And

I think people,

you know, there's this innate response to be like, oh, where's the, you know, where's the voices from the other groups and the other types of people?

And

part of the reason that we're doing this is

just because that's not okay.

Any, right?

Like, like we exist in a space where it's not okay for us to do this.

Right.

But we're trying to show people that just because we're doing it, it's not harmful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and I think we, we should probably take a step back to also the reason that we weren't, we were not just all randomly on a group together, but we were all part of a group called White Dudes for Harris, which I've been in politics for a long time and I'd actually been out of it and got pulled in to do this again.

And, you know, I think a lot of people got really excited about that work because I think we finally were recognizing that the Democratic Party should be a big tent where anybody is welcome as long as they're not, you know, not like being racist and all these terrible things.

But like, we, I think the Democratic Party has done a really,

I'll say a good job, maybe not a really good job of

giving a voice and a platform for people of color,

women.

And I just think that because of how society works, we haven't really focused on men in general,

let alone white men.

And I think saying, no, there is a place for you here, even if it's just they see us and realize that there are guys who look like them.

And the reality is the math doesn't work without men.

We can't as a party continue to win.

I think we won.

I think it was 37% of white men.

I'm not sure.

And we lost ground with black men and Latino men.

So it's a, it's a, it's,

and young white men even more.

Even more.

Oh, it is my fault.

So

that's why this is important.

And we also saw that there was excitement about this last year.

And I think now it's even more important since we lost last year to show people that there is a a different way.

And it's important to say too, like there were the few that were angry at us for doing this, but they got knocked down by like a ton of supporters.

We couldn't even respond to the comments.

Not even that.

The people that like felt that way initially listened to one episode and went, holy, holy shit, they're not a bunch of shitheads.

They're saying terrible shit.

Like they're happy with us.

Yes.

So because

I was, it's like, when am I going to get past this?

I was nervous about even white dudes for Harris.

I'm like, is that,

is it white knighting and the white savior thing?

Right.

We also, there's also the right-wing definition of cancel culture, which has been forced on us to own.

They've been canceling people.

We already talked about this for a very long time.

And now they're saying, well, the left cancels everybody.

And we go,

everybody should be canceled.

Wait, wait, wait.

We don't actually want to stand on that ground.

We're only now having that conversation.

But the point I'm making is.

I never got blowback for white dudes for Harris.

Black women commenting in my videos.

Thank God somebody's fucking doing the work besides black women.

My favorite comments to get are that.

Absolutely.

And then we started doing the podcast and we were like, we can't have a podcast of white, straight men, right?

Like, that's not the thing that the left, right?

We all, we were terrified that just showing up with our faces might get us canceled.

And, and that didn't happen.

And we're getting tons of amazing feedback all the way up until

I, you can say the thing.

Like, I don't think we, we,

we think that we can't say what needs to be said.

And like, Elon Musk is like bringing comedy back.

I'm like, legalized.

Dumbly shirt.

I'm like, you are bringing comedy back, but not in the way that you think.

But

all the way up until a couple of days ago, I was like, I'm going to talk about the history of slavery in the United States.

I'm not a historian.

I'm not a subject matter expert.

But I do know what's right and what's wrong.

And I fucking said it in a video and I pointed at a graph that showed the history of slavery and segregation into where we're at today,

which contextualizes how we think about the marginalization of black people in the United States.

And it was like, okay, well, fucking YOLO, like as I hit publish on that video and it did fairly well on every platform, but then Billy Porter, who's like a famous actor with 2 million followers on Instagram, downloaded it and posted it on his own.

and said like the fucking nerve of white people to come up with the term black fatigue.

But I'm like, okay, so, and then all of the comments on on his video are all supportive.

And I'm not a smart person.

I'm not an educated person.

Like, I'm in the middle on pretty much everything.

But if you, if you know something is true, just, just say it.

And everybody is so afraid, but they're afraid because the right tells you you have to be afraid, not because we're actually trying to come after each other.

I've gotten nothing but love and support when I take a stand on something that is important to me.

What I think we all recognize that we'll just say men in general have not done enough to help Democrats or liberals win.

We have relied on, in particular, black women, but people of color in general, and have gotten away from

our own responsibility to take care of our own house.

And I think we want to make sure that people know that as well, that like this is not a like, we're coming in to talk over people and to say like our way or the highway.

It's the opposite.

It's like we want to lift up everybody else and bring people along that

maybe we lost over the last four to eight to 12 years and let them know that, no, like, and we can have disagreements within the party.

I mean, this group has a wide range of

on the spectrum of liberal or democrats, right?

Very, very moderate.

Very, very, very, very, very, we kind of suspiciously moderate.

We're not in the right.

I don't think we're in the right.

Well, maybe we are in the right order, but of most moderate two, but maybe I'm probably not number two.

But, but, but anyways, like,

and that is an important thing.

And I I think people have understood it and I think that's been the exciting thing.

I've just been some people call me fuck face in the comments sometimes.

I laugh every time.

Yep, it's fine.

But we also could take it, right?

Like if you haven't seen your face before, it's a perfect

face.

It's accurate.

Wrestling fuck face.

One of the things that

I think the left has a problem with, and white men on the left have a problem with, is, you know, acknowledging privilege is the first step to like, like combating racism and sexism and everything.

Like acknowledging the problem is the first step.

Not enough of us are, and I'm not saying that what I'm doing is the only way, but it is a way that is available, which is to weaponize your privilege against the fucking bad people.

Like I, I am, and I say this phrase all the fucking time, like I am a bald, bearded, tattooed combat veteran that comes with a lot of fucking privilege.

That's why I hunt Nazis for a living.

Thank you for my service.

Thank you.

Like, I am not going to ask or expect someone who doesn't look like me and doesn't live with all of the privileges that come with that.

Like I can own a firearm.

I can talk to cops.

There are a lot of people who live in New York State who would have a hard time standing in front of a judge to get a concealed carry permit.

Right.

Like they, they would have a hard fucking time because of shit that they went through, because of the way that they look.

I don't have that fucking problem.

Every interaction that I've had with a cop,

I am able to be confident in that interaction that I'm going to walk away just fine.

So

more people, when they want to combat racism and sexism, I think need to stop stepping back and being like, oh, this isn't my place to speak up and instead be like, this is my place to,

you know, I don't want to say hurt people.

but to do damage to the other side, to take away their resources, right?

The point of my nonprofit, the mission statement is to make it difficult and expensive to be a neo-Nazi.

Right.

And we should be doing that.

The broader left should be doing that to Republicans.

Fuck yeah.

Like you could call it canceling or you could call it, you know, whatever, like just saying, yeah, creating friction,

making it slightly more annoying.

Exactly.

Fight back.

Like, like Elon Musk with these Tesla takedown protests, that is imposing a cost on you being a racist piece of shit trying to destroy our government.

Like we as the left need to be, we need to embrace, I don't know, the masculine aggression or whatever you want to call it.

By the way, all the people I know organizing those protests happen to be women, so maybe it's not masculine.

But like this aggression thing,

there is good aggression.

Yes, right.

There are like stereotypically masculine traits that we can use.

for the force of good.

I completely agree.

And I think, and as somebody who's been in the in the Democratic Party operations for 20 years or so, I don't think we have accurately expressed our anger correctly.

We should be angry at what the Trump administration is doing across the board, in particular for vulnerable communities.

Like, we should be mad that they weaponized the trans issue.

Like, like, fuck them.

Why are you, they are constantly punching down and we don't push back.

I mean,

those communities push back, but they are at an inherent disadvantage.

And we like to go to the private sector.

They don't have the power.

they don't have the privilege and we should be saying no this is wrong that was a mistake for harris for sure it definitely was it definitely was and a lot of consultants said don't touch it because it's a she left it alone you have to stand up and fight for people and that doesn't mean hurting the other side from like any certainly nothing physical but like just standing up and using your voice like what men in general have been too quiet for too long and it is time to say enough is enough i mean it's the left in general comes off as weak a lot of the time and i think it's exactly like what kamala harris did in this election where like, I live in Georgia.

So every single ad I got was an attack on trans people.

And it was making you feel like the whole country is going to turn trans.

Your whole life's going to get turned upside down.

What was the line?

It was like, he's not for you.

He's for, or she's not for you.

She's for they, them.

And I was like, amazing line.

Donald Trump is a very good person.

What a terrible thing.

Yeah, exactly.

Donald Trump's for you.

She's for they, them.

Amazing line.

I heard it like 7,000 times.

Kamala Harris should have come out right away and said, this is complete bullshit.

Let me tell you why it's complete bullshit.

I support this community.

Here's why I support them.

She said nothing.

Right.

Go to

bat for your beliefs.

Exactly.

Don't say, well, oh, so sorry.

Let's let's pass these bills that suppress trans rights.

I'm like, so you're validating their argument and actually helping hurt the people who need our defense.

100%.

And they used to, and they would like cherry-pick all these times.

I was like, did you see the trans person who got care in prison or like gender-affirming care?

And she would only come out and be like, well, I don't know.

That didn't happen that way.

It's like, don't respond to that.

Respond to defending the community.

Also, shit.

That was a Trump era policy.

They put that in place.

No Democrat did that.

That's the easiest thing to come back with.

I would agree.

It was, I think, the right thing to do.

But like, we don't do that.

No, never.

No.

We are now.

Well, we are, but 300,000 at a time.

That's true.

Chris, something you said really stuck out because

we got some parents in the group and

not yet.

Sooner or later, we'll get him there.

But being a dad is the best thing ever.

But when I was driving with my son, he asked me, he's seven, and he asked me something about a police officer.

And, you know, my, my instant line is like, don't worry.

You don't have to, ever have to be afraid of police officers.

They're, they're, they're here to help.

They're here to take care of you.

Like they're, it literally says to serve and protect on the side of their vehicles.

And then you pause and you go, oh, shit.

There's whole sections of the country that cannot tell their, their little child.

They say the opposite of that.

They got a three-year-old, five-year-old kid going, woo, woo, woo, when the, you know, and the kids think everything with a siren is cool.

yeah and so it comes up and they ask about it and they just want to love everything and when the fact that there are dads out there because you know you're going to have a kid here pretty soon um any day

and she will inevitably ask you about the police and we're in this position where you can drive around in a lot of states if you're a white guy with a shotgun on your back seat and you can just go you know hate Officer Tony, you know, you can just have a conversation with him.

And there's absolutely no assumption that anything is nefarious even if you're giving signals that would get anyone else in trouble yeah um and that that is real hard when you have to then pass on your fear or your trauma your experience to the next generation yeah um versus just sucking it up and dealing with it yourself it's sad that they're right like they'd they'd hear that argument and they would just absolutely hate hearing it because they would you know their their whole challenge with everything is they think that like if you if anybody demonizes police in any way shape or form they're instantly a bad person that's that's why they have this like horrendous response to black lives matter and things like that they think any kind of criticism of it is ridiculous and that to me is like the ultimate not seeing unless unless you're talking about january 6th and then that's in which case the cops

yeah exactly then it's then it's then the cops are the bad ones right i'm i i want to explain like i want to explain why i'm sitting here smirking and it's and it's because the camera guy who is in the room right now was with me when we did our first in-person operation for my nonprofit and we literally chased a bunch of Nazis out of D.C.

That's awesome.

So, so I just couldn't get it out of my head.

And the driving is specifically what brought it up.

If you put me in a black Impala in Washington, D.C., I could do doughnuts on the fucking White House lawn and no one's going to look at me funny.

Nope.

Like I literally fucking went from central D.C.

during the March for Life event.

Tons of fucking extremist groups show up.

I chased the hate group, Patriot Front, all the way fucking into

Maryland.

And

like was able to just zoom through the fucking city.

Cops were like, hi, like, how are you doing?

So you must be part of the Secret Service or something, obviously.

Dude, seriously.

And again, it goes back to like

not everybody has to do what I do.

What I do is fucking insane.

And I recognize that.

But like, we need to leverage our privilege in every way that we can to

impose costs on those who are imposing costs on others just for existing.

Trans people, especially,

trans, black trans women

are the most demonized and attacked, physically attacked.

Like they are the victims of the most hate crimes.

Like

we need to fucking stand up for these people and use every fucking advantage that we have.

Everything within the bounds of the law.

Yeah.

Yes.

Within the bounds of the law to to impose costs on those who are trying to make life miserable for those people.

And that's what's so amazing.

There is an astronomical amount of power on the table to use legally to protect people.

There is.

We just have to put our hands on the table and fucking take it.

Like white men have an incredible amount of power.

And

when 100 million people choose to do something that is good, all of the other people, they're already begging us to do the thing that is good.

It is not a leap.

It is not hard.

You don't have to break laws.

You don't really even have to leave your house all the time to do good things anymore.

Like you can send money and you can vote for people.

You can make videos.

And lo and behold, you've changed the world because you just cared enough to show up and try.

I mean, I think this group is actually a perfect example of that.

I mean, we are looking at things you can do that don't take a lot of time and don't take a lot of money.

This group has somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 million TikTok followers amongst us.

Yep.

I'm the smallest by far.

A couple of you guys are really large.

But, you know, I think part of the appeal of

us is just the uniqueness of the fact there's just not enough guys who look like us doing it.

And we're like, we're not, we're certainly not diverse, but age-wise, we are quite diverse.

I mean, we have regional diversity and we have age diversity.

Luke is 21.

I'm 46.

So we have a 25-year gap, which I think also is interesting.

But it's also a challenge to all age groups of men that like we are not standing up for women.

We are not standing up for people of color.

We're certainly not standing up for the trans community.

And we are hoping in our small way that we are encouraging other people to join with us and get bigger and louder as we move to take back Congress next year.

And then, two years right after that, get the White House back.

Well, the thing that

has allowed us to do what we're doing now, the reason why everyone's in New York and we're filming this is because we have a community that has responded favorably to this.

We, we wouldn't have fucking like, I'm in my own house, so I didn't, I didn't do much, but people wouldn't have flown from across the country to sit down here and record this if we didn't have people immediately reward us

with, you know, in our case, it's likes and shares, which actually does mean something.

Like, absolutely.

People are engaging with this content.

It is,

it might feel empty to say, like, oh man, like a million people watch this video.

That is not meaningless.

No,

it often feels like it is, but it's not.

It's encouraging us to dedicate more of our lives to put our businesses aside or on the line to do this, right?

Like

I 1,000% agree.

And the thing that has always driven me crazy, I mean, none of us call ourselves influencers because it's a disgusting

word.

I hate it.

Content creator is like the nicest way of calling yourself an influencer.

But if you went back 100 years, or when was Edward R.

Murrow alive, a journalist?

I should know this.

50s, 50s.

But if you went back 70 years and you gave these kinds of platforms to the most revered journalists in history, they were craving this reach.

Like it's just a message and an audience.

And just because it's easier than ever, and just because a lot of influencers are talking about like their fucking smoothies or like, you know, whatever the thing is

that gets a lot of views, it doesn't invalidate the platform.

There have always been tabloids, there's always been comic books, and there's always been real journalism being done.

And I'm not going to go so far as to say we are putting in the kind of work that real journalists put in.

We don't have a team of fact checkers making sure that everybody's in the journey.

We definitely say I'm not putting in the same work as a real journalist.

And those people are doing the work.

But that doesn't mean that this is different or worse because

as we pointed out, if we have a video hit, we can get to a million, two million, three million people inside 24 hours.

Yes.

And

most, even major network TV stations crave that kind of reach.

And even Fox News, I ran the numbers.

I don't have them top of mind, but I ran the numbers a while back.

And my channel through the election was getting more unique monthly listeners than Fox News had unique monthly viewers.

That's crazy.

And if you break down the demographics that I think are the ones that we can influence.

I'm trying to be the nicest I can here.

If you take the entrenched old white Republicans off the table as people who are not going to flip eventually,

their viewership is something like, you know, a million a year or a million a month.

Like it's, it's, it's incredibly, incredibly low.

It translates into stuff.

And it's like, we have had people who have said, like, I went and changed my vote because of you guys.

Like we have all

that is the best thing.

Like we have people who

tell us.

Yeah, the first episode we have people go that I went and registered to vote for Democrats in the the future like i had people on my own channel so many times going your video literally made me vote for kamal harris like it's one thing to talk about metrics there's an impact i've had people in my personal life that i've seen share your stuff to facebook people i've known like my whole life i'm from a small town they've been republican their entire my entire life and they are like this guy knows what he's talking about like he makes me think differently like awesome no it's great i it's it's very bizarre too like i think all of us to some degree have been like recognized and like because they people like people have come to me in the grocery store like, I love your podcast.

I completely agree with that because I share it to all people that don't agree with us.

Like it's incredible to see.

And it really is.

It is kind of a crazy thing.

It's the currency of influence today is what we do.

Like you're like, like you're saying, the news networks, they're dying fast and they're getting replaced by people like us, which is, to me, like

good and bad balance.

If you go back to Edward Murrow, it's like.

Back then when the news was actual news, it's a different thing versus today where it's just like a different form of entertainment.

Well, and it all comes down to the responsibility to your audience.

Right.

I hold my viewers in very high regard.

In fact, some say that my viewers are the smartest viewers on the internet.

Oh, really?

I mean, people say.

They're all saying it.

These are the best people.

Many people are saying it.

All of the best people are saying it.

All the best people are saying.

These are the things that Edward Armuro could never say.

So I'm just saying I'm a little bit like him, but maybe better.

I swear we're not high on our own supply.

No, not at all.

It's totally fine.

But

if you have a responsibility to your audience and if you hold your,

if you if you demand that you give your audience the correct information with sufficient context, anyone can do that.

Anyone can go to journalism school.

Anyone can do that work.

It's just a set of values that you either hold or you don't hold.

And a lot of the major media outlets have completely abandoned that.

Even the ones that are like on the left, they've gone toward just clickbait and fear-mongering.

MSNBC is just, you're just terrified the whole time.

CNN, you're terrified in a little different way.

And then Fox News, News, you're terrified in a very different way.

But it's all just fear-mongering to whoever you're speaking to with, you know, sound bites and clips that get you thinking and get you wanting more, but they never actually deliver and answer the question and give you the information that you're craving.

Well, and I think that's why so many people have tuned out because both sides do this.

And it's, yeah, it's exhausting.

And look, like this is

one of the worst times in our history, but we also have to live our lives.

And I think like there has, and look, like, again, the privilege is coming out here because obviously like we are not particularly under threat from some of these things that are happening.

But that said, like in order to reactivate people, like we have to be able, as you talk a lot about, like have conversations rather than like the top 10 reasons why this sucks or whatever.

You know, it's like, no, like, it's, yeah.

And I think that like the CNNs and the MSNBCs, like, I just don't think that model is working anymore.

And like, for those of you who don't know, like, some of those TV shows in their target demographics, they're getting like tens of thousands of people watching.

It is not the audience.

Like, Fox News, nighttime, two, three million people, which is a massive number for a cable show.

But like, all of us have had videos that have hit two, three million people.

Easily.

I think the reason that we have broken out, like all of us are new creators.

I didn't.

I had a TikTok account.

I never used it until September of last year.

So that was like late into the election.

I think the reason why we have broken out is because we're not there to fear-monger.

We're not there to just repeat the headlines like some influencers, Aaron Parness.

We give hope.

We give like, I try to end every one of my videos with an action item.

Yeah.

And especially on substance.

I refuse to end on a down note.

I can't fucking do it.

I'm not just there to panic you.

I will not talk about a problem unless I'm proposing a solution.

And

the algorithm doesn't reward me for that, but the people do.

Yeah, because it's interesting, like Tim said, people are tuning out.

It's either people are tuning out, they're not paying attention at all, or there are people that are tuning the fuck in and they turn it to Macs and they watch people that regurgitate CNN headlines for like 30 seconds, plug where they need to go follow them, and then repeat the headline, and then say, oh, yeah, and check back in like four hours for the update.

And those fucking people grind views.

Yes.

And they just, you know, feed this anxiety

over and over for the money.

I mean, that's probably what it comes to.

And the viewers are coming from cable news.

They've already been trained to be afraid and to be on the dopamine hamster wheel of a little bit of information.

Okay, the House passed the bill, but it hasn't cleared the Senate yet.

Okay, they flipped a vote in the Senate.

It might get like just...

fucking stop even if the worst thing happens you still got to wake up tomorrow and feed your kids and like get through that shit so like let's try to play the long game it doesn't diminish the severity of the short game but you can't index a 100% on what's happening every second because it does burn you up.

And then you're going to find out 98% of those breaking news headlines are utterly irrelevant in a week.

And you will have forgotten about them, but you hold that physiological tension.

I don't even think it's a week.

24 hours, man.

Oh, yeah.

Most of them are dead in a day.

But this is why Donald Trump has been so effective, because he floods the zone with garbage.

And so, and we.

generally take the bait because a lot of it is outrageous and like

insane.

But in the background,

they're implementing the Project 2025 stuff.

They're negotiating.

What's the progress bar on that these days?

Last time I checked it, it was like 40%.

Getting there.

Infinity percent.

The thing he said he wasn't going to do.

Yeah, he doesn't know anything about it.

Yeah.

That's the thing that's hard to come off.

Like you're not fear-mongering sometimes because you're just telling the truth.

Like sometimes it's not fear-mongering.

It's just fear.

There's just real fear.

Yeah.

Well, but we all have reasons to be afraid.

The best part of waking up for me is not

the coffee that I'm drinking.

God damn it, these earworms, man, they stay with you forever.

Is that like, I don't know, maybe it's about 45 seconds where I've, I'm awake and I'm aware that I'm a human on the planet, but I have not remembered that I'm in Trump's America.

And I haven't thought about headlines or the news or TikTok or anything that might be happening.

I'm not even thinking about like, you know, my kids going to school.

I don't know what day it is, but it's just that, just that moment where you're like, oh man, I feel a little bit better.

And then it's like

all the

slamming into your brain.

Like my friends and family have almost all stopped paying attention.

It disengages people.

Like that's the biggest problem.

And it lets him get away with it.

And that's incredibly effective.

It is.

Like, my parents are both extremely anti-Trump, and they cannot tolerate seeing him say a single word out loud.

So they just don't pay attention to anything at this point.

I mean, his delivery style is absolutely

approaching.

But I mean, that's a huge problem.

It's like anybody who's going to resist this, yeah, they'll go and vote against him or vote against his disciples, sure.

But like in the short term, the only people who are paying attention are the people who can grind through the pain of listening to what he has to say and what's going on every day.

No, it's funny you say that, Rich, because I have like the same experience, only like I cannot wake up in the morning.

So it takes, I get like between 15 and 45 minutes of not remembering it.

You know, I'll get up, watch my YouTube, eat my cereal, and then at some point I get, fuck,

it's Trump.

And I've thought about making that a series on TikTok where's my fuck at today?

Because it happens at varying points every day.

9.47 on on a Tuesday.

Where's my fuck at?

I wish I could say the same.

I fucking immediately wake up and immediately have my phone.

Auto anxiety.

There are some days where it's like, I got to check.

I mean, so I'm a small business owner.

I'm running two nonprofits.

Like, plus we're doing this new creator shit.

Like, I am

absolutely always fucking plugged in.

So you wake up to your fuck every day.

See, mine is a byproduct of the fact that I'm like, I'm up really late almost all the time.

So like the first 40 minutes of a day, I'm like only 15% awake.

But like the rest of the time, I'm plugged in basically the whole day.

But you don't drink coffee, right?

No, I'm purely on energy drinks.

Okay.

That's a 21-year-old answer right there.

So

Zach, you mentioned how weird this all is.

You know what I think is weird?

Oh, God.

What are you going to notice about me here?

I think it's weird that this guy's afraid of fucking birds.

I am afraid of birds.

Terrified of them.

For those of you who are listening, not watching, he pointed at Luke.

Luke, while I'm talking to MAGA Boomer in College Station.

Oh, this is awful.

Do you remember?

So I know you remember the bird.

My dad is a wildlife biologist, and I went back, and I don't know if you remember, but I said,

if I had to name that bird that is terrifying Luke right now.

The fucking thing was flying around.

It was like, it'd come around, it'd get real close, and then it'd just kind of look at me and no, got to take a circle.

I said, if I had to name that bird based on the sounds it's making, I would call it a like a grackle.

Yeah, yeah, that's what it was.

And I went back, and it's a fucking grackle.

The grackle scare you.

Oh, it's awful.

It was awful.

Fucking things feathery and flapping.

It's terrible.

I hate it.

It sounds like an electronic siren, like a car alarm, like a chip.

Yeah.

I hate you.

Yeah.

Do we have an editor that can put in the sound for us?

We need the grackle on audio thing.

But if we're talking about fear, so we've just

the first time we met in person, so we've learned some things about ourselves in the last like 24 hours.

Zach is afraid of fish.

Most like sea life in general.

Frustrations are the worst.

Frustration is the worst.

Lobsters, crabs.

I have nightmares where I'm just walking in the sand in the ocean and like it just on my feet.

Like my worst nightmare is.

But they're little, man.

So I just told you about...

Mantis shrimp for the first time two days ago.

And Rich, the first thing he came in and was talking about mantis shrimp.

So it stuck, huh?

We talked about it last night, too, and it made his palms sweat again.

It literally did.

They're telling me about mantis shrimp.

They're so much tricky.

No, I did so many videos.

And it's like, my palms are pouring sweat here.

And here's that.

I have no history with fish.

I don't really, nothing happened.

I just, a concept.

Can we bring in the lobsters, actually?

Dude, knowing when I was a kid and my dad would like pick lobsters out of the big tank, I just run up.

Even with, they've got the rubber bands on that.

They can't even get you.

They can't get you.

It's not about the paint.

It's about the way they look.

I totally understand this because like I'm from, I'm from a farm.

So I'm like, my parents, we had birds my whole life.

That's what instilled the fear in me.

But like, so there'd be times where like my mom would have a chicken, like we showed livestock growing up, so we showed chickens.

And like, they would be in a cage.

There's no fucking way they can get me.

And they still scare the piss out of me.

Absolutely.

I mean, just will not get anywhere close to them.

Birds and fish.

This is great.

I mean, I don't have a great relationship with, well, fish are fine.

Fish are fine.

There's nothing to be afraid of.

Birds.

I've had some run-ins.

Yeah.

Dude, they're aggressive animals.

I hate them.

Well, I told some of you this last night.

Hopefully this isn't too long.

I actually accidentally killed a bird once in fifth grade.

You say it's an accident, but let's hear the rest of the story.

So we'll be the joker.

In Maine, in fifth grade, everybody goes to this thing called science camp.

It's like a couple of days in the woods, and there is swimming, but they also take you and like learn about nature and do all these things.

And one of the sessions was

they had caught birds in a net.

And so we were going to check the net to see what kind of birds they caught.

And they asked kids, who, like, do you want to hold one?

And I put my hand straight up.

And they show you how to hold it, which is, it was a little sparrow.

You hold it like this with their heads pointing out.

So eventually when you're done, you release them up so they fly away.

So I'm holding on.

And I think I've got the like loosest grip that I possibly could have.

We go inside, talk about the birds literally holding it.

And I'm like, he's not really moving that much.

And like, but my hands, I'm like, don't squish, don't squish.

And so we go

back out.

And they're like, all right.

There was like three or four of us in a line.

They're like, we're going to count to three and we're going to let the birds go.

I'm like, great.

And so it's like one, two, two, three.

So I release the bird and the bird literally goes like this and then straight into the ground.

And the adult that was there looked at me and goes, you killed it.

And I was like,

and I like,

I had this thing where I was like, oh, I think it had a heart attack.

I don't know.

And so,

you know, I, and I would never hurt like animals.

Like anybody who hurts an animal is like the worst human being on earth.

So I was

so now birds and I just have a respectful distance that must be a horrible core memory of somebody going you killed it that's what he literally said and then of course all my fears would just lighten me up for it for the rest of the time has has rich divulged any sort of weird yeah we need like a weird fear from everybody here i mean i'm i'm digging deep here but that's that's my problem is i'm absolutely fearless oh nice um my fears are are irrational emotional fears internally yeah okay so we can unpack that for a little while

i agree i could relate to that no i mean i um I mean, Australia, you know,

everything in there wants to.

But that's a rational fear, right?

So my irrational fear, I mean,

I'll tell you why, but sea turtles really fucking freaked me out.

Dude, we're fucking friendly.

We have a lot of cousins here at least of you as well.

Okay, so I was like, I don't know, fifth grade, sixth grade.

So what, 10-ish?

Go to Mexico with my parents.

We go into this lagoon.

I remember it was like lima bean shaped.

And there's a fence at each end and you go swimming in the middle and on one side of the fence or one end there's sharks and on the other end there's sea turtles so i go over and and they give you buckets of like bait fish that you swim with so the bait fish are in the water with you and you go up to the shark tank and you put a fish through the holes like very very thick plexiglass and if you just see a shadow come and just woof and i thought it was cool i thought it was the coolest thing in the world so i'm like i shouldn't have done the sharks first because that was really cool I'm going to go to these boring ass turtles.

So I go swimming over to the turtles and I put my little thing and I just see this shadow coming.

And this fucking thing the size of a VW bug just comes up and it's got like a Rottweiler head and it puts its face right up to the plexiglass hole that my hand is sticking a fish through and it just goes and just opens its mouth up and sucks me into the fucking wall.

Oh my God.

Oh fuck.

So my hands go like this.

The bucket of fish just explodes.

Now I'm now I'm swimming in chum and fucking fish are coming from everywhere and more giant fucking turtles are putting they put their mouths up to the fucking plexiglass hole and open their mouths and I'm just getting a vacuum.

So I'm I'm drowning.

I'm drowning as fish are all around me and these these fucking giant VW bug-sized turtles are holding me under the water.

So now sounds like an actual nightmare.

I was gonna say this is a valid traumatic experience.

Very traumatic experience.

So dark water and sea turtles, I do not like a lot of turtles.

That's totally dark water.

I don't like dark water either because nobody likes dark water.

I don't know.

Those guys that do like the nighttime cave diving underwater

are that

the same vacation.

I went and did that.

That's definitely a traumatic vacation.

That does not sound fun.

It's not a fun trip to Mexico.

Not at all.

I would say

I do have a little bit of a fear of dolls murdering me.

Dolls?

Okay, Chucky.

And this is because he might have the number one most irrational yeah that might be it my my uh my dad who's a wonderful man um i worry where we're going allowed me to watch child's play

i think i was eight seven or eight child's play's chucky right yeah chucky yeah and for those who are not familiar with child's play a serial killer dies in a toy factory and

imparts his soul into a doll.

I think, is that the right word?

I don't know.

I'm not actually.

I don't know.

I was going to say imbibes, and I also don't think that's right.

Anyway, puts his soul into a doll.

And the doll, who's a red-headed psychopath named Chucky,

not that there's anything psychopathic about redhead.

Anyway, it's fine.

I don't want to get canceled.

Then is bought by a child and slowly.

convinces the child that like the people in his life need to be murdered and then starts murdering people.

There's a scene where he like throws a toy hammer at the babysitter and hits her in the forehead and then she falls out the window of like a high-rise.

Oh my gosh.

And then and then Chucky is laying in bed with this kid, like whispering why everything is going to be okay.

And so when you're a kid who sleeps in a bed with dolls

and

then you see that.

Did you have the my buddy doll?

No.

So we had two.

So I have a brother and sister.

We had two my buddy dolls.

I watched child's play.

I don't think I was allowed.

I don't know how I saw it.

I watched it.

I was very young.

I took my buddy and I put him in the sandbox and I burned him.

Incidentally, no spoilers, but that is the only way to get rid of Chucky.

I was like, this, I was like, fuckers gotta go.

I'm not trying to cut him up.

I'm not.

I'm just gonna take him into the sandbox, nice and safe.

No, nothing's gonna burn.

And I burned my buddy.

And I did not get imparted with that fear of doll for the rest of my life.

See, I finally defeated him in a nightmare maybe two years later because

I had these recurring nightmares.

My parents could tell you all about it.

Where Chucky was chasing me.

And finally, one day I was like, one night, I was like, I'm done.

And I grabbed him.

And I think I like smack, like baseball, swung, smashed him on the cement in the dream.

Never had a dream about a doll since.

Wow.

There's some characters.

I did it.

I fucking killed Chucky.

So what, what got me when I was a kid was the idea.

So I was little and like the traditional monster movies, everything's big.

so frankenstein's big the wolf man's big dracula's big so i was like i'll just hide under my bed i'll be fine and then i saw gremlins oh i was just i was wondering if that's where you were going and i was like they can go anywhere i can go yeah now nowhere is safe nowhere is safe it was like the closet isn't safe under the bed isn't safe i can't like wedge myself anywhere no when i was like four i learned what quicksand was and i was like ready that that was going to be a consistent threat in my life.

I was like, oh, yeah.

I got to be ready for the quicksand.

Growing up in the 80s, there's like a million things that they generational connection here.

We finally have bonded.

Oh, yeah,

fear of quicksand.

There's a never-ending story.

The horse, the drowning,

fucking Artax, man.

Yeah.

That's what created that.

Have you seen the thing at the Comic-Con convention where they have Artex stuck in the mud and you have to try and pull him out?

Oh, no.

It's awful.

Oh, I don't know if I can handle that.

Isn't it funny how trauma transcends generations?

It really does.

It's awful.

I feel better about my seat life here now at this point after hearing all this.

Well, so we've talked a lot about our fears.

We had an interesting conversation last night.

I think we want to try to see if we can have something half as good today as we did last night.

But we were talking about movies, music, and TV shows.

And there are some strong opinions here about which of these are the best.

Lost.

So we're going to do not lost.

Don't they say that?

So apparently we're doing TV first.

Greatest TV show of all time.

Rich has just said lost, which is is an atrocious answer.

Because of God.

Oh, my lord.

They found their way to God.

Just like all of us in real life.

Oh, my God.

I can't reach him.

I should smack him.

For those of you who don't know, there's not a lot of

God-believing or religion believing in this world.

So your answer is lost.

Lost is the greatest TV show of all time.

No, my answer is lost lowercase.

It's just lost.

Oh, okay.

No.

Well, so, I mean,

I have a hard time with this because it's like, are we talking comedy?

Are we talking all shows?

Are we talking shows that have completed?

I would say

at the time when it ended, Breaking Bad was my answer.

There you go.

I've watched it since.

It's aged.

I don't see Walter as

the

protagonist that I want to defend as I did the first time I watched it.

That's the point of it, though.

Better Call Sol has now come out, and that started maybe nowhere close to Breaking Bad, but then got to a place where a lot of people are saying Better Call Sol is better.

So anyway, I don't know if a lot of people are saying that

all the best people are saying that.

So I'm going to go way off the grid because it deserves a shout out.

If you have not watched Deadlock,

it is a buddy cop

comedy sort of like thriller.

It's like, it's like CSI level violence.

And the language is worse than Game of Thrones.

Like I've never heard the C word more in my life because it's New Zealand lesbians

solving really vicious crimes as cops oh my god and then there's also this whole group of like

they were like they're like new zealand magas i guess they're like the the the farmers that they think that all lesbians are the worst and so you get this dynamic between like the bumpkins and the lesbian

and it's a good thriller so they they only have one season out absolutely watch it so so since the likelihood that anybody that is listening to this has absolutely no idea what you're talking about where can they watch it?

I think it was on Amazon.

It's on one of the streaming platforms.

It's an original on one of the platforms.

If you haven't kicked Jeff Bezos out of your life, you can watch that, right?

It's so tough, but I did it anyway.

Like all, like every, every show ever in the history of everything, right?

I think the, the, what I would have to call the best, because it was probably the most influential in my life, was Mr.

Wizard when I was a kid.

The little science show where like an old man who you can go to YouTube and watch his out tick.

They're not outtakes.

It was the show.

He was so mean to these kids that I didn't see one.

But he like calls them stupid and it's, it's definitely not PC.

But it's like where I got an interest in science and mechanics and like all of my hobbies ended up being very tactile.

And I am certain that's where I got it.

You know, suddenly how you talk to us makes a lot more sense.

Which would keep us honest.

Continue to keep us honest.

So Mr.

Wizard is your, is the greatest show of all time.

The greatest show of all time.

I flip-flop between The Sopranos, a show called Justified and Better Call Saul because it is better than Breaking Bad.

Okay.

Okay.

Mine, I mean, I oscillate between Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul, and I think that Vince Gillian is an absolute genius to be able to actually have taken those characters.

And first of all, Breaking Bad, one of the best shows ever.

Oh, for sure.

The Brian Cranston performance in that is just unbelievable.

Like the part where he's like, I'm the door that knocks.

the way.

I am the one who knocks.

I'm the one that knocks.

Sorry.

Sorry.

He's a door.

He's a door.

He's a tool.

He's a door.

And then they took Saul, a side character, and made him a feature and arguably a better show.

But there's one under the radar, and we can talk about Seinfeld and all these things, which are obviously amazing.

Pass on him.

But and I mentioned this last night, but there's a the show in HBO that not a lot of people watched, which was called The Leftovers.

It was three seasons.

Justin Thoreau was the main character.

Carrie Kuhn, who was just in White Lotus, was in it.

Scott Glenn's in it for a little bit.

And

probably the best ending to a TV show that I've ever seen.

Like a satisfactory and also amazing ending, which is maybe even harder than making a great show, right?

Because there's so many, like, people didn't like the Sopranos ending.

People didn't like the Game of Thrones ending.

I like the Sopranos ending.

Okay, but like the Game of Thrones, I'm sorry.

No one likes the Game of Thrones.

I actually have never watched Sopranos either.

I've never watched Sopranos or the Wire.

There's multiple seasons of leftovers?

Three.

Okay.

Three seasons.

Is that the one where everybody disappears?

Two percent of the population disappears.

You know what's curious about Breaking Bad?

Do you know that HBO passed on it?

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, they tons of networks passed on it.

Tons of networks.

And then AMC, this like shitty American movie channel, like they're like, oh, all right.

So like Breaking Bad and The Walking Dead turned them into what they are.

Well, they had to fight to get Brian Cranston because they were like the guy from Malcolm in the middle is your like.

Have you ever seen the like the spin-off where they have uh, they have Brian Cranson wake up in the bed from Malcolm in the middle, and he's like, I had this terrible dream, Lois.

Do you know why, what that's all about?

So, this is even before me, but so there was Bob Newhart had two shows.

I think it was, there was the Bob Newhart show was first, and then Newhart was a second show.

He's obviously in both.

The characters are a little bit different.

So, in the second show, and they were both very popular shows in the 70s and 80s, I think.

And then the end of Newhart,

he wakes up from a dream and he's sitting and he's in bed with his wife from the first show so they made it seem like it was all one big dream so that's why they did that that that thing so so Zach I gotta come in and save sanity in this situation because breaking bad is unquestionably the best show of all time it's not even close and I this idea that Walt is a problem for the show no he's not a problem

I said he was an introvert

I agree anybody with two brain cells doesn't root for him him.

I mean, to me, the premise of taking your main character and shifting him from being the person you want to root for to the person you're rooting against through the course of the show and having it happen naturally never happened before.

And that's the reason it's good.

I don't want you to be rooting for him.

Man, if you're rooting for him at the end of the first season,

well, I still root for Walt.

Because he's just like, I relate to him in the beginning and I want to stick with him, but there's so many heinous things he does.

By the end of the first season, you can't back him anymore.

Well, I'm not saying I back him over so many other characters, but I still, there's a piece of me that wants him to secure.

But that's like the devil's advocate in you.

No, but that's why Breaking Bad was so good, is that you're watching this menace to society.

Yeah, but they do the same thing.

They do the same thing

better in Better Call Saw.

But how?

I agree with that.

Because

you can totally see, like, there's a line at some point where it's like, okay, I can't get behind what Jimmy's doing anymore.

But it takes significantly longer and feels significantly more earned.

How so?

I don't see how that.

I mean, I guess like you could make the case that

Walt has always been.

Well, Walt has been the the one, but Jimmy was like, I mean, Saul.

Jimmy was always that way, and you saw him go.

But Jimmy, like, he was fighting himself a little bit through the course of the show, but he was always doing horrendous things.

But deep down, horrendous is definitely not the way I was.

Deep down, he was fucking everybody over.

He was screwing his brother over non-stop immediately.

Yeah, but Walton, Walt, like, assaults his wife in like the first season.

Yeah, well, that's a like first season?

I think it's a first or like very beginning of second.

Like, it is?

Yeah.

But if you look at the

what do you call microaggressions right now?

Um,

The way that Walt treats his wife and

his disabled son

right from the get-go.

And that's my point.

The first time I saw it, I remember empathizing with him for a lot longer.

Sure.

And really wanting, because everybody can understand cancer diagnosis,

the whole world is out to fuck you over in healthcare.

It's just a disaster.

He's trying to make money.

I think somebody last night pointed out when we were talking about this sort of in advance,

the episode where he declines the money.

That's like the first season.

Yeah, that I agree.

At that moment, I was like, take the money.

But now when I went back and watched, and like, there's this insufferable scene where he's making pancakes and bacon for his family as if like that's the way.

And I didn't, I almost missed it in the episode because it was like, it's a fucking guy making pancakes.

Oh, this is the scene.

This is his grand gesture.

Yes.

Is that he wakes up in one fucking time or like two days in a row, makes pancakes so that his wife doesn't have to while he's making that.

No, that's that's true.

And then at the time people are like, his wife is such a bitch or whatever.

And I'm looking back and I'm like, part of it is I don't like how society thought Walt was like

hero for like oh,

and then right and they called her a bitch and it was like dude no he was a trash husband he was a trash dad he got a bad diagnosis but

his character does not hold up for more than about two episodes.

No, it's true but the reason I think that it's dramatically better than Better Call Saul dramatically is insane.

Because crazy tape.

Breaking Bad achieved something that Better Call Saul didn't do.

It changed the way that you can make a TV show in a mainstream.

Okay, that's a valid argument.

Better Call Saul follows a really distinct formula that they built, but it's not new.

It's just like unique.

But I think they do it better.

It's both the same people making it.

I feel like it's...

No, no, no, no.

I'm not saying that.

I'm saying I think they do.

You can improve a process.

I just think like Breaking Bad achieves something that no other show has ever achieved and Better Call Saul didn't do that.

Better Call Saul took Mike and made him even a better character than he already was in breaking bad and i'm like the fact that they i almost feel like they made all of better call saw so that they could just have mike be also i like better i like better call saw's ending more than breaking bad's yeah

i mean it's really good it is really good they're both really yeah it is they're both really good and and they both like they push on that the trauma the viewer of I see myself in the villain and I see myself in the victims.

Yes.

And this is very tough.

And I have no opinion on it.

Who should win?

I love what they did in the final season of British Call Solar was really all built around him kind of getting to that moment in the courtroom where it's all just like it all just collapses.

I mean, it was amazing.

It was one of the best moments of modern television.

It really was.

It really was.

Well, guys, this has been fun, but I think we have reached

our time.

We've got some meetings that need to happen after this.

So

thank you all, everybody.

You should also let us know what you think is the favorite show and why Zach's wrong.

I want a quick show of hands.

Laugh track or no laugh track and call it.

Talk a laugh track.

No way.

No.

I can accept that.

I'm still hearing two.

I mean, I can, I can, I like, I like the Big Bang theory, but I, but it's designed for a laugh track.

Like, I think if you took laugh track, I'd be like, this is not right.

It's not funny.

But I mean, it's funny, but I like it differently.

Yeah.

If they have to tell you when to laugh,

I'm a little bit suspicious of the joke writing itself.

It's not a premise, though.

I don't know.

Sure.

It's all structured that way.

So vote in the comments.

Yep.

Let us know.

Best show ever.

Laugh track or no laugh track.

Zach is wrong.

And Zach and why Zach is wrong.

And then explain why Zach is wrong.

Yeah.

Well, guys, I hope you like this different format.

But, you know, I hope you like the other format because we're going to have to go back to it.

So, anyways, thank you.

Let us know what you think.

And we're just so super pumped that you're along on the ride with us on this journey.

Super pumped.

Super pumped.

Super pumped.

What's wrong with that?

Fade out.

We'll unpack this later.

Okay.

Okay.

Thanks, everybody.

Goodbye.