Golden Bachelorette’s Jordan Heller on Why Men Struggle to Make Friends After Divorce

Speaker 1 Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Find Out Podcast. We got a great show for you today, but before I introduce our first guest, I wanted to talk a little bit about our episode from Thursday.

Speaker 1 That we that actually it was Rich, Chris, and I, uh, like it is today, because we got a few folks that

Speaker 1 had some flight problems and a sick kiddo.

Speaker 1 We asked you if you wanted us to have Grant Plattner on the show. And many of you wrote in, which we really appreciate it, and asked us to do that.

Speaker 1 And so I just want to let you know that we have extended actually several invitations to the Plattner campaign to come on the show. And so hopefully we will have some more information for you soon.

Speaker 1 But we wanted to make sure you knew that we had listened and that he is welcome to come on the show anytime. And also feel free to ask him over social if you would like him to join as well.

Speaker 1 But today we're doing something a little bit different. You know, we usually have guests from the political sphere, but today, because we're talking, because we want to talk about

Speaker 1 some of the other pieces of our work, which is also like

Speaker 1 bringing men to the left, but also helping men live fulfilling lives. So we actually have Jordan Heller today, who was on the first season of the Golden Bachelorette.

Speaker 1 So Jordan, thank you for joining us today.

Speaker 2 well what a great intro by the way thank you so much yeah i'm so happy to be here and love i'd love to get a chance to talk politics at some point too but yeah i'm happy to talk about my experiences and uh everything that's associated with the show and kind of my life as a as a as a man in the my early 60s in chicago so so uh for those who don't know jordan came in uh for fourth place so was in most of the second season um

Speaker 1 and and is in chicago which we were joking before we were coming on here i think jordan referred it to as chirac because obviously republicans all say that the city of chicago is completely burning down to the ground even though it looks like jordan is perfectly fine right now so maybe that's slightly

Speaker 2 jordan's in a bunker right now actually that's what you can't see yeah well it's so it's so ridiculous because chicago gets such a bad rap like it's you know it's so mischaracterized for years by the way for years and i live right on the lake uh downtown chicago and walk my dog on the lake every morning and i see people looking at their phones and all the time i you know i'm i ask like where are you you know are you visiting what do you think they're like, Wow, it's amazing.

Speaker 2 Like, Chicago is incredible. And it really is.
Like, and it's certainly like until the midwinter, Chicago is just incredible. So,

Speaker 2 I was totally mischaracterized.

Speaker 1 I lived in Chicago for four months when I was working on the Obama campaign in from August to November of

Speaker 1 2008. And I didn't get a lot of free time to go visit, to go visit places, but like I walked home at like midnight, one o'clock every, like every night.
Like,

Speaker 1 it was not anything like it was advertised. It will get.

Speaker 2 I mean, Chicago is a little bit segregated so

Speaker 1 downtown all the way north and now even all the way west is is fantastic i mean it's it's it's it's coffee shops and restaurants and music and lakefront it's just incredible yeah yeah well we'll we'll definitely dive into that in a little bit but i want to i want to talk a little bit about your journey because i i always wonder with these shows like how the hell did they find these people like how did how did this happen so i'd love to hear a little bit about your background and how you applied to be on a reality show yeah so my background is that I grew up in Skokie.

Speaker 2 I'm the youngest of four boys, a nice little very middle-class Jewish family, and grew up, went to the University of Iowa. I met my wife there.
She was a small town Iowa girl. Came back to Chicago,

Speaker 2 raised three girls. And then we had a long marriage.
We had a good long marriage. And then things started going south.

Speaker 2 We don't have to get into that unless we want to. No.

Speaker 2 And I got divorced.

Speaker 2 Now it's like 10 years ago.

Speaker 2 so 2015 and then you know i kind of moved to the city you know you're in a small suburb of chicago you know everyone knows you your kids go to you know you're playing sports your kids are doing all sorts

Speaker 2 and when you get divorced it was kind of a little bit of an ugly divorce let's say i didn't want to stick around in that pool so i just wanted to escape and i never lived in the city so i moved down to wicker park which is a one of the neighbors of chicago kind of a cool hipster type fun neighborhood i

Speaker 2 and um

Speaker 2 one of my daughters came with me and then another one came with me. Ended up not long, all three of my daughters were all living in a two-bedroom apartment in Wicker Park.

Speaker 2 But it was the best of times. It was the worst of times.
It was really, it was a really great experience for all of us. And we still look back at it with great,

Speaker 2 great, you know, feelings about it.

Speaker 2 But then, so, so what happens is I have three daughters. We, they're fans of the bastard.
They would watch the show.

Speaker 2 I would watch it with them as their dad, you know, part of that. And then in 2020, after some show,

Speaker 2 they were looking for, I guess, pre-pandemic, right?

Speaker 2 At the pre-pandemic, the end of the bachelor, they just said, hey, you know, someone over 60, you know, an adult, they were trying to cast for the golden. But this was back in 2020.

Speaker 2 So a couple of my daughters literally took some Instagram pictures, put together a paragraph, sent it in, completely forgot about it. I mean, they never even told me about it.

Speaker 2 And then last January, I got some calls from, I'm like, who's calling me? You know, I listened to the the call and it was like the golden bass. So I'm like, what is this nonsense?

Speaker 2 So then finally, I said to my daughters, and they kept trying to, so they were texting me. We're trying to call you.
We're trying to reach you.

Speaker 2 So, you know, of course, you know, nowadays, it's a scam. Everything is like a scam.
I'm like, what kind of scam is this? Right. And my daughter said, no, we applied, but it was like four years ago.

Speaker 2 So I'm like, ah, well, listen. You know, so the first call, you listen, and they're like, okay, well, this is real.

Speaker 2 You know, you don't ever think you're going to get picked for something like that.

Speaker 2 So you have one interview after the next after the the next, and then they don't really even tell you you're on it until a couple weeks before.

Speaker 2 And you've got to kind of gather your life together. You can't tell anyone.
You know, I

Speaker 2 hundreds of texts from people saying, Where are you? Why are you turning my text? So stressful when you get your phone back, really stressful.

Speaker 1 So you didn't have your phone at all for that experience.

Speaker 2 So they don't have your phone. You know, you are cut off from life.
It is,

Speaker 2 you get to the airport, and there's you get like the Hollywood experience here.

Speaker 2 The guy with a little sign grabs your luggage, he's got a whole thing on, but then they take your phone and then

Speaker 2 you're stuck. And there's some things that they don't tell you about that experience in the beginning.

Speaker 2 You think you're getting this big, you know, lavish. You're in a hotel room, you're completely cut off, you're sequestered for days, which is maddening.
You know,

Speaker 2 no one explained that to me. And then the first time you meet anybody is the night of the opening night at the show where you go out of the limo and you meet her in person so it's right

Speaker 1 yeah

Speaker 1 no i was just saying for those of you who don't know so there's this whole there's this whole bit at the beginning and maybe they do this in the bachelor too i never watched the bachelor i did watch the golden bachelor and then i watched the golden bachelorette and they bring every every uh contestant comes in a limo gets out cameras on you and you meet the the either the man or the woman in this case it was the woman joan uh who was a was a contestant in the first uh season that they brought back to be the golden bachelorette so

Speaker 1 do that do they prep you for anything when you go come out of that

Speaker 1 out of the limo, or is it just sort of like throwing you to the wolves?

Speaker 2 No, you talk with your producers during that week about like a shtick you're gonna do.

Speaker 2 You know, whether you, yeah, all these people in our season coming like came out in a horse, another guy did you know one-arm push-ups. And I was like, I don't want to do it anyway.

Speaker 2 I was just going to be myself. I didn't want to, I didn't want some sort of shtick.

Speaker 2 But you don't know when during the night you're going because it's all, you know,

Speaker 2 compartmentalized.

Speaker 2 you only see the guys in your limo and they do it at night because you know they have to well i don't know now they could fake it but so it was late at night we didn't know what time it was and you're thrown off balance so and i told this you know recently like i got a little bit in trouble for it but i i was in the first limo and the supposed to be the and i was the first one out and when they told me that you know i was like went into a panic i'm like me i i didn't you know we're the first limo you're the first one so i was like you know my heart started racing you know we're not used to something like that you're you know you're 61 years old never been in that sort of experience and the your thrones is a wall of cameras um and then they they kind of

Speaker 2 make sure you put you put in your head there are no retakes so it's one and done you get one shot at this and then you slink into the into the mansion afterwards so it's so you were the first of you were the first one that she saw and and no one else so you had nobody to you were you were the guy that everyone was watching

Speaker 2 But when they edited it, again, I shouldn't, they edited it. They um, they cut me to the middle because I really screwed it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So, so what, so the

Speaker 1 you go in, and then all of a sudden, so you're there for weeks, I believe. Yeah, and like no phones, you know, you don't have the iPhone watch, nothing.

Speaker 1 What are you doing with most of your time when you're there?

Speaker 2 Well, let me take it back a minute. And,

Speaker 2 you know, you're seeing the guys come in after you and then you know it's a it's a it's a competitive type game right you're you're trying to win the woman from all these guys and you're assessing all these guys as they're walking in you just it's first impression of like what kind of clothes are they wearing like what's yeah how's their attitude so it's a very interesting you know i don't know if you've ever would have that situation again you're like each one of these guys is your competitor but then right away we became very friendly like the group of guys it would it came about the guys pretty quick right after that we were all kind of looking out for each other And to speak to your second point, there's a lot of downtime.

Speaker 2 So they not only take away your phone, but there's no internet. There's no TV.

Speaker 2 There's no books. There's no music.
There's nothing.

Speaker 1 What? Nothing there. Oh my god.
No music or nothing.

Speaker 2 Unless one of the producers allows you to listen to music. The whole idea is that they want you obsessed about the,

Speaker 2 you know, in our case, it was Joan. Talk about her.
You're mic'd up. This camera's going.
Talk about her, obsessed about her. And that's, that's the idea.

Speaker 1 So that's the only way that show the whole idea works because in reality you're like what so you can't do anything else except hey you guys just talk about it right so so so how long were you there for i was there for like five and a half weeks so five and a half weeks and then even um correct me if i'm wrong but like even after you so you made it to fourth you were eliminated very near the end do you have you have to stay there still while that's going on no when you're here they shuffle you off right away but okay

Speaker 2 you're like five days beforehand before you get to the mansion and then when you made it to the final four you everybody leaves the mansion the idea is that the first you know that that part you're competitive with each other and then at the end it's just you like one-on-one so that you go and you're in a hotel room again by yourself with the producer and then that's like the hometown and that's like the end of the show Oh, right.

Speaker 1 So I forgot about this. But yeah, so the top four, Joan went to each of your hometowns and did that.
So she came to Chicago with with you and met your kids and all of that, right?

Speaker 2 And Pascal was also in Chicago. So that she had two

Speaker 2 Chicagoans. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right. And he, he was the guy that came in second, I believe.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 If I remember,

Speaker 1 third, third, third. Okay.

Speaker 1 So, so you have all this down.

Speaker 2 I just keep saying came in second. Like, if people say, did you win? And I'm like, was winning getting married? I don't know if that's really winning, right? So I always use that.

Speaker 2 I don't know if winning is the right way to do that.

Speaker 1 That's a good point.

Speaker 1 I do wonder that when I see these shows where I'm like, what if like three days in, you just like, I don't, I don't want to be with that person. Like,

Speaker 2 you get, listen, I'll just use my, you know,

Speaker 2 experience as an example that

Speaker 2 you're still caught up in the whole idea of it. You know what I mean? There's, you know, as you go further, you're like, well, maybe she's not really for me, or maybe they're not really for me.

Speaker 2 So people do bow out in some of those shoes. We, you know, we didn't have any of those, but there definitely happens.

Speaker 1 Right, right. So, so how much, so, so you you have all of this time with these guys that you are theoretically, as you said, in competition with.

Speaker 1 But as we saw on the show, it didn't really feel like to me, you watch some of these reality shows, right? Like the Love Islands, for example, they're scheming and there's all this stuff, right?

Speaker 1 And they're also a young, much younger group of people. They're, you know, I think 20-ish to in the mid to upper.
30s maybe.

Speaker 1 But you guys are all in your 50s and 60s. And I don't know if anybody touched 70, but you were in that older group.
So

Speaker 1 what was that like? I mean, originally, obviously, you're like you said, you're checking everybody out, but then like about like, is this competition? Is this not? How long did that go?

Speaker 1 And then how long, then, you know, when did the transformation start happening where you guys were actually like, oh, we're, we're buddies?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think pretty early on, pretty early on, none of us really expected, you know, the, none of us really knew what to do. Most of the guys never even seen the show, literally.

Speaker 2 They came on there completely unbeknownst, and they were, you know, kind of fumbling around.

Speaker 2 And we found our way, kind of, there's a big, in the back, in the back part of the pool, there's a giant couch, a big you couch. And that's where you can get cocktails.

Speaker 2 And guys would, you know, probably 10, 12 of us would go there. And that's where we became friends.
We tell our stories, like, you know, what are you doing here? Like, how did you get here?

Speaker 2 That's kind of what you're telling me.

Speaker 2 And, you know, maybe in the beginning, but right away, guys were opening up. It was, you were telling your, you've never seen a, you know, this collective group of men who were similar situations.

Speaker 2 There wasn't really a lot of ego. Everyone was a little bit broken for sure, either widowed, divorced, or some other situations.
So it felt like a safe spot. Like, and no one really expected that.

Speaker 2 It was, so that was the best part by far.

Speaker 1 And that's the part that that's, you know, the genesis of like have for the context for this show that I really want to talk about. Because,

Speaker 1 you know, I think you're like, I think everybody had been married except for maybe

Speaker 1 one

Speaker 2 or two guys.

Speaker 2 But he didn't make it past the first.

Speaker 1 Right. So, so most, so most had trauma, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So, and that's not something that men particularly like to share with people, let alone on a national television show with people that you're, but how, but like, how much of,

Speaker 1 were people very open and discussing their trauma or was it very guarded, probably a mix of things? Like, how, how did that, that stuff go?

Speaker 2 Like, it started, I mean, slowly, guys were talking about their lives. And as

Speaker 2 even just days in, you, people became more comfortable with it and realized that we've got really nothing to do except talk to each other, understand our stories, and kind of express our feelings.

Speaker 2 In a way, like I said, I said things to those guys that I've never even said to my closest friends in life. You know what I mean? We were all.

Speaker 2 because they were sharing and then i was sharing and then there were you know there was genuine i would say breakthroughs. Definitely, guys felt that way.
Tears.

Speaker 2 I mean, I've never seen guys, I'm going to cry in general. I have daughters, I cry, you know, Mulan, I'll cry.
But this was different.

Speaker 2 So these were guys who were talking about something that they had probably never talked about or very seldom talked about, certainly not with a group of men.

Speaker 2 And it was like a 60-year-old camp therapy, you know, something like that. It was, so right early on, and listen, I'm not going to say everyone did that.

Speaker 2 There was definitely guys who did not participate, who were there to try to win,

Speaker 2 who really were in game space type stuff. But most of them were about the guys and trying to really,

Speaker 2 whatever this feeling is, we want to get it out.

Speaker 1 I think what you're describing is something that a lot of people actually do experience, but don't recognize it for what it is in that moment.

Speaker 1 The important part is you being out of your comfort zone and literally like being away from home and being in a place where you're totally disoriented.

Speaker 1 Now, I I got that experience when I went to basic training, right? Anybody who serves in the military, for the most part, if they're telling the truth, basic training is a ton of fucking fun.

Speaker 1 You make a lot of great friends. And it's part of building those friendships is you are in an unfamiliar environment where you are vulnerable.

Speaker 1 It's not a choice. You're not breaking down walls.
The drill sergeants are breaking the walls down for you. The second is I went to school for the first time as an adult.
I went to

Speaker 1 first my community college when I was 26 or something. And when you're that age, the difference between 18 and 26 is pretty significant.

Speaker 1 And then when I went to Columbia University, I was around 30-ish or 28.

Speaker 1 And particularly at Columbia, like that, that place is intellectual hazing. A lot of people don't describe it that way, but they'll give you like a stack of these books and your first class.

Speaker 1 And they'll be like, read those eight books by next week. And like, I fucking tried to do that.
And that was insane. And I was like a fucking mess.

Speaker 1 But that orientation thing, whether you're 18 or 30 or 60, it really is the same. Like being out of your element.

Speaker 1 being in a vulnerable position that you don't necessarily put yourself in or anticipate. You can make real lasting friendships in those moments.

Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. Without a doubt, I'd say to a man, every guy would say the friendships are, you know, and it's real.
Like we see each other. A bunch of us went to Las Vegas.

Speaker 2 A bunch of guys are coming next week here to Chicago.

Speaker 2 No, it was very real and definitely lasting. I mean, none of us really thought it would last, but this thing has kind of built momentum.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's been by far the best, by far the best part of that experience.

Speaker 2 Like, so certain guys, you know, we didn't know this is going in, but certain guys couldn't cook and they've never cooked anything. Certain guys never cleaned.
Certain guys were never working out.

Speaker 2 So put helped in putting on ties, everything, you know, cutting hair. So it was really

Speaker 2 that, you know, like you said, maybe in basic training, they'd say, certain guys know how to do some things and certain guys know how to do other things. So we really were helping each other out.

Speaker 2 And there's just some, I don't know, it's a beauty in that, that camaraderie with the,

Speaker 2 and we were all just guys who didn't expect it, which made it even more, more, you know, more special.

Speaker 1 It's funny that you mentioned that, that angle, Chris, because

Speaker 1 something I think about a lot with my university experience and why I defend going to college.

Speaker 1 And I don't mean like going, I mean, if all you can afford is like your local school and you're trying to make yourself better, you're trying to learn things, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 If you have the privilege of being able to disappear from your past life for even a while, it gives you permission to just not be any of the things that you don't want to be anymore and try being

Speaker 1 different things or new things or maybe just

Speaker 1 trying being yourself for the first time in your life. And I feel like I know for myself, that was and my wife too,

Speaker 1 absolutely critical in allowing myself to be comfortable with who I am.

Speaker 1 And I think, you know, when you look at like the right, you know, we don't have to make everything political, but that's kind of what we do here.

Speaker 1 But when you look at the right, like they never have that opportunity or they shame themselves or shame each other. They shame their peers if they try to make that pivot.

Speaker 1 You know, if they try to like, oh, you're forgetting who you are, you know, you're not being true to yourself.

Speaker 1 It's like who you were when you were a shitty 18 year old, 17 year old, 16 year old is not

Speaker 1 hopefully is not always going to be who you are. And it really does allow you to sort of like level up as a, as a human and sort of discard a lot of old baggage.

Speaker 1 Jordan, before you had this experience, obviously having this arguably later in life,

Speaker 1 then you had opportunities to, you know, have that sort of experience with other men, especially just like being real with other men prior to this? Or was it like a brand new thing?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, I was in a fraternity. So I went to college.
I was in fraternity. I was a pledge trainer for two different semesters for the, which, which I guess in its time, it was the same thing.

Speaker 2 We would sit there and we would, you know, bullshit with the kids and kind of put them through these physical challenges.

Speaker 2 So that was great. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I still, you know, my college days was like, like you mentioned, there was some stuff that, you know, you back at now, and I'm so thankful that we did that insanity because you're not going to get another chance to do that.

Speaker 2 But, you know, I have three older brothers too, but we, again, it's, there's, there's different levels. And it's not like we're closed off.
We're, you know, we're like a yappy family.

Speaker 2 But this was a different level. This was just something different because we'd all kind of shared, you know, kind of the, you know, the nicks in our lives.
And

Speaker 2 some more than others. And some guys really, you know, broke down and were crying.
And

Speaker 2 guys were were taking them. Like, Mark Anderson is one of the guys who came on the show.
He was a little bit the most famous of the group because his daughter, Kelsey, had won the season before.

Speaker 2 She was the one who won the bachelor. And

Speaker 2 he had a few minutes on that season where they went to his hometown. And they showed about a sweet guy looking, but he was a widower, lost his wife, and how sweet he was talking about his daughter.

Speaker 2 And then when we were on the show,

Speaker 2 we're walking on, we're walking around the grounds, and there's a hummingbird. And there was a scene where

Speaker 2 he just broke down because his wife, you know, his past wife used to feed hummingbirds out of her hand on their

Speaker 2 on their

Speaker 2 property. And he thought this was a sign.
I mean, it was, it was just, you know, he let it all come out. You know, they only showed a tiny bit of it on it.
But it was so good.

Speaker 2 The guys rallied around him. And we rallied around a bunch of guys like that.
You know, the widows had a much, you know, even more different experience. than we

Speaker 1 well there was the guy yeah there was uh i can't remember his name the man uh uh he lost his wife yeah

Speaker 1 yeah and was like the the sweetest story i think in the show and that you could just you could just tell the the the pain that he did i think she had passed away something like five or six years before and his daughter or dodgers

Speaker 1 had him like basically put him up for this to get him out of his comfort zone and i think he did a lot of that but i think the the thing that

Speaker 1 struck me about this show was that it felt like a lot of people had trauma and maybe had never had an outlet before.

Speaker 1 And then all of a sudden, in the weirdest way possible, you guys all got thrown together because mostly because your kids,

Speaker 1 you know, put the application in for you. And then all of a sudden, you're thrown in with guys from literally all across the country.

Speaker 1 And yet you found a way to communicate in a way that feels very authentic and real, which to be perfectly honest, when you think about reality TV, real isn't usually the first thing

Speaker 1 that you, you know, like a lot of all these shows, selective edits, and like they're trying to get a story

Speaker 1 than reality. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And, and, but you guys found something real. And I, that's, that feels very special to me.

Speaker 2 Well, I, you know, because people say that a lot and what's amazing is even through the editing process, they they did keep that, you know, obviously people were able to see that our friendships were real, the trauma was real, that we were not, there was very little acting on our, in our season when I watched it.

Speaker 2 We were really all there,

Speaker 2 just participating in whatever happened, happened. There's still so much, you know, they filmed for five days for one episode.
So, and you're mic'd up all day, every day.

Speaker 2 So you don't really know part of the trauma for us after the show is. we don't know what they're going to show.
Like I'm watching it for the first time, like you're watching it.

Speaker 2 So, and this could be frightening.

Speaker 2 But yeah, the without a doubt, the uh, that came across, you know, and uh, and it was, it would have been nice had they, you know, had the season done something to kind of keep that together.

Speaker 2 But we've done it on our own. So it's uh, it's, it's been, it's been great.

Speaker 1 So you guys, you, well, go ahead. I'm just curious, did you guys sign like a pact with each other or something?

Speaker 1 Because you're like, you're like, hey, we're going to close off to the world and then we're going to. spill all of our secrets to each other and then we're all going to be celebrities after that.

Speaker 1 Like, that sounds like a fucking recipe for an absolute disaster.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, no, we, we didn't sign anything. I mean, there's, like I said, most, there's a, there's maybe a dozen of the guys who are like, let's say, in I, or maybe a few more, but

Speaker 2 it's just, we, we just really became, you know, like some,

Speaker 2 you have a collective experience. We all kind of went through it and it really made us really close.
It's a bonding experience that.

Speaker 2 And that's why, you know, we talked like somehow we can, if we can replicate it to the many, many men who could use something like this but then how do you do it exactly you have to again remove everything you it's got to be a decent you know an interesting scenario but it certainly can be done

Speaker 1 yeah do you call it like the golden bros or something like that is that how you well yeah so

Speaker 2 there was a thing we did the mansion men where kim which was the uh was with the navy officer uh captain kim he came up with this mansion men song so we're kind of reducing the mentioning even though i i'm not crazy about that title at all i kind of want us all to sing it if you remember we none of us would sing it except Seven guys.

Speaker 1 I did see that there was someone who needed to sing it when they got eliminated. And I think some wanted to it, some not.

Speaker 1 But I do love literation, but maybe, maybe, yeah, you could maybe workshop that a little bit.

Speaker 1 But so, so I want to go back a little bit to just compare and contrast that experience.

Speaker 1 So, so you got divorced about 10 years ago, I believe, and you were in a small community at that time and probably knew most of the people around you.

Speaker 1 So you're going through a very painful and dark period. Like even the best divorces, there is trauma associated with those.
Did you have a group of people to turn to?

Speaker 1 Or was that a situation where, because you were probably, what, in your early 50s at that point? Yeah. Or was it very isolating? Like, tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 2 That was, I, I hid most of it. I did not have, even my brothers, I didn't, maybe I gave them a little bit.
It was A, embarrassing.

Speaker 2 And B, I just felt, you know, I don't know if you guys have been divorced or not. You feel a little bit like a loser when that happens to you.

Speaker 2 You feel like, how did this, you know, how did this whole thing happen to me? This wasn't how you crafted your, the idea of what your life was going to be like. So, no, I did not share.

Speaker 2 In fact, when some things came out later on, even my closest friends were like, like, what? What happened? Yeah, I kept a lot of that, that, I kept most of it to myself for a while.

Speaker 2 It just was,

Speaker 2 I guess, embarrassing or painful or a combination of the both. And I just wasn't really.
you know, ready to kind of expose that. But like,

Speaker 2 I was willing to expose it to guys I didn't know. I mean, it's just kind of crazy, right?

Speaker 1 I get that. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 I 100% get that. Cause like the, there's just no risk of judgment, right? With strangers, like, because you just don't fucking care.

Speaker 1 If they say something really hurtful, you're like, well, you're a dick. Like, we're never going to be friends anyway.

Speaker 1 But if they, but if they,

Speaker 1 in the offhand chance that they say something genuine and they go, holy shit, dude, I had that same experience. Or, oh my God, that's really powerful.

Speaker 1 Then you just cut through what might have taken 10 years to get, to get to with a new person, with a new friend. It's like, oh, we're just going to be real with each other from the get-go.

Speaker 1 Like, that's actually something new.

Speaker 2 But that was something new to me, though. I mean, I hadn't experienced it.
So that's why it was so refreshing.

Speaker 1 I thought. And so with the, so being in the small town,

Speaker 1 you decided to move to Chicago, right? And tell me a little bit about that.

Speaker 2 I was in a Chicago suburb. I just was in the suburbs.

Speaker 1 Right, right. But, you know, if you ask somebody in Chicago about the suburbs, they would probably tell you it's like a million miles away, right? Like that's, I mean, at least being in New York.

Speaker 1 Like anybody upstate New York, you get, there's this whole argument in the state, which I'm loath to even mention now because I'm going to probably get destroyed over this, but like people in New York City think upstate is anything below New York City.

Speaker 1 And people who live slightly above have a very different opinion of that. So it's just, I mentioned it as a, they're different dynamics at play.
Yeah. But you moved, you moved to Chicago.

Speaker 1 Uh, did you have a network around you or were you basically alone?

Speaker 2 No, alone, alone. It was me.

Speaker 2 I was kind of, at that point, I was kind of trying to be anonymous so you moved you're in a big you know in the fishbowl in where i was in the suburbs and then you moved to the you know like i said moved to wicker park you're immediately you're anonymous no one cares like to wear pajamas all day no one would think twice about it right so that was very refreshing you know coming from where i was nobody knew my business you know i wasn't posting on social media every day it was it's what i needed at the time certainly well my my girls and i also we all needed it

Speaker 1 yeah and so and but did you you, were you able to build a network of of friends moving there in your in your 50s or was that a struggle?

Speaker 2 No, that was a struggle. So, you know,

Speaker 2 I think that's a major struggle for guys anytime. You know, we're not, there's no, there was no book club and there was no guys night out.

Speaker 2 Um,

Speaker 2 I got kind of paired with some also divorced guys who made it move to the city somewhere in the suburbs. And you kind of mingle through these divorce guy

Speaker 2 associates.

Speaker 2 And, you know, some of them, you know,

Speaker 2 your only thing you have in common is your divorce, and you're like, oh, man, do I have to be out with these guys? Is this what my life is going to look like? And then it's that part is a struggle.

Speaker 2 Plus, I'd like to play sports. And there's not a lot of guys playing sports really at my age that kind of, you know, like I said, I play tennis and pickleball and beach volleyball.

Speaker 2 And not that I'm a superstar athlete, but I still like to play and compete. And guys would rather, I don't want to go smoke a cigar.
I don't want to go sit in a bar and drink.

Speaker 2 I'd rather be active, go to a music show. And it's just, the mindset is a a little different.
So it's hard, it's very difficult to find guys

Speaker 2 what I'll say that

Speaker 2 I'd like to hang out with in my mindset, in my age group. So it's still a challenge.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And so this is, this is like why I think this conversation is so important because, you know, we talk about in this country

Speaker 1 a loneliness epidemic, and which has been exacerbated by COVID. Because we have now, you know, everybody either works remote or works remote part-time or the majority of people.

Speaker 1 So we've lost the ability to interact and engage with

Speaker 1 people, our peers at work.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, we're getting even more segmented because, you know, the way social media is, now it's sort of like there's two, the two sides don't interact as much anymore either.

Speaker 1 And I really do believe that this is, this is for the sake of our democracy, I think we have to figure this out because I think when men get isolated, it is far more, and maybe Chris, you could talk to this a little bit, but like when men get isolated, especially later in life, it's a lot easier to

Speaker 1 essentially red pill them, right? And to send them down a very dark and dangerous path. And I think we have to solve this problem for people.

Speaker 1 Like not everybody gets to, you know, lux our way into a podcast that does well and we get to meet all these guys our same age or not gets to be on a TV show that gets millions of viewers every night.

Speaker 1 Like this, there is this loneliness epidemic is a real thing. And we're not just talking about 80-year-olds.
Like we're talking about people who are divorced or widowed early in life.

Speaker 1 And we don't have great solutions for those people to meet new friends or potentially new partners and things like that. And so men spend a lot of time online, and that can radicalize them.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, I mean, it certainly has.
I mean,

Speaker 2 the, you know, the bro podcasters have really exploded with the, with the red company. And that's, yeah.
And it's gone down to teenagers. It's gambling has really exacerbated that, I think, a lot.

Speaker 2 The online gambling epidemic.

Speaker 2 And like I said, I'll go on Twitter, you know, like every in the morning, something, and start scrolling. I'm sorry,

Speaker 2 how do I say that?

Speaker 1 No, no, I'm saying sorry for your mental health. You're doing this one,

Speaker 1 feel free.

Speaker 2 I didn't, I wish I didn't, but I like nowadays, it's so skewed. So, the first 30 posts, the for you section, are all you know, some extreme right-wing.

Speaker 2 I just have to start, you know, block, block, block, block before I get to something that's meaningful to me. So,

Speaker 2 you know, they outnumber, you know, the lefties or the Democrats.

Speaker 2 It's got to be a thousand to one, something, something obscene because there's, it's, it's, there's so many of them with, between the blogs and, and the social media posts.

Speaker 2 It's, you know, we need to do a better job on our side to get the word out.

Speaker 2 There's no equivalent to half of these guys in the, in the, on the right blogosphere, the Tim Pools or the, you know, Ben Shapiros, who all those types.

Speaker 1 There's, there's, so many of them.

Speaker 2 And like, who can you even turn to on the left and say, oh, he's our guy? They're just there aren't that many, right?

Speaker 1 No, I mean, that's why we did this because we were like,

Speaker 1 nobody is

Speaker 1 right, nobody, yeah, I'm not looking, yeah. I mean, I appreciate that, but it's serious.
It's like, you know, the Republicans and the

Speaker 1 maybe conservatives is a better way, have been investing in this for a long time and been red-pilling men.

Speaker 1 And the interesting thing about it is that, you know, when you look at study after study after study, if you talk to women and what they actually want in a partner, it is literally the opposite of bro culture.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, if you are really looking to make friends or find a partner in life,

Speaker 1 not following Tim Poole and Ben Shapiro is the best path forward for you. But like, we need a lot more people

Speaker 1 saying that, but it's absolutely true.

Speaker 2 So I don't know how, you know, I guess it's just you build a following, but I think maybe just the psychology on the right leads to people just following and just jumping on that ideology.

Speaker 2 I just don't think it's easy on the left.

Speaker 2 The thought process is wider. And I'm not trying to demean them, but we all, you know what I'm saying? I think.

Speaker 1 No, you can. You can on this show.
It's totally fine.

Speaker 2 No, yeah. No, I agree.
So, yeah, like I said, I hope we can build that. You know, 26 is around the corner.
We need to build that

Speaker 2 voices where people can click and listen to them and understand what's really going on. And I'll click on someone, you know, like, where is this clown? What is he getting these?

Speaker 2 And he's got a quarter million followers. I'm like,

Speaker 2 I know what I'm the right. So it's, it's disappointing for sure.
So I'm really glad that you invited me on. I'm glad that you're doing this.
And we need to, we need to kind of blow it up.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think we need to figure out some ways to take what your experience, like, you know, and I know you said you're not sure either. And maybe this is a question for the audience, too.

Speaker 1 But like, we have to, like, part of the reason that the right-wing echo chamber works is because they, they, they're building community and there are, and there's no shame.

Speaker 1 Like, you could be as vile and as right-wing, and they will welcome you. And the welcoming part, I think, is what we need to do better.
And I think we have a tendency

Speaker 1 on the left to, you know, if someone either says something bad in their past or says something now problematic, we're like, you're dumb.

Speaker 1 And I think we have to, especially as this effort to move men leftward, we have to be

Speaker 1 willing to, you know, accept apologies for past behavior and not like rake people over the cold store. It doesn't mean that we need to give people a pass.
There's a difference here.

Speaker 1 But I do think that there needs to be, we need to be better at welcoming people.

Speaker 1 And I think like if we can find ways, not that we can create a reality show to lock everybody away for five weeks so you can get to be friends, but like there has to be other ways to do that, I would think, because it's so important.

Speaker 2 I agree. I was encouraged by the No Kings protests.
So I went to all the protests. Sorry, I went to the Chicago protest.

Speaker 2 Super well attended, well, you know, organized. The people there were fantastic.
There was no, there was no, you know, nothing crazy going on. The speeches were excellent.
People were orderly.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's the, so I don't know how you take that momentum and pull people out of that crowd and go, let's build this. But that was a great foundation here.

Speaker 2 I'm at, you know, I'm sure it was similarly around the country as well. But I was super happy with what happened here.

Speaker 1 Well, we talked. Oh, go ahead, Rich.

Speaker 1 I've been thinking about, I mean, we've been talking about this forever, but it's like nobody has a solution. But something that continually becomes the center of the conversation is

Speaker 1 the concept of gatekeeping, like you referenced, Tim, like gatekeeping every fucking thing.

Speaker 1 And the idea that like on the right, it's not just political. Like they talk about,

Speaker 1 that's almost never the first thing they tell you.

Speaker 1 Yes, when you create a new account, you're just like, They're like, oh, you're a white man. Here's a fire hose of fucking racism because we know that this is you.

Speaker 1 And you're like, Jesus Christ, you got to self-select out of it. But they're talking about video games and sports, and it's just part of their whole culture.

Speaker 1 Whereas, I have circles of my progressive friends where if you walked in and you said, Did you see the bears get annihilated by the Ravens this weekend?

Speaker 1 They would go, What the fuck are you talking about? Get out right now.

Speaker 1 Nobody here watches concussion ball. We're not gonna, we don't want to talk about that shit.
What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you gonna let your kids play football? You must hate your kids.

Speaker 1 that's child abuse like there's no i know it's zero

Speaker 1 there and so we don't have to go all the way i don't want to be the right but we have to let people be normal again um like to some degree when it just doesn't matter and that means we got to deal with the gatekeepers because it's it's never everybody who's like don't talk about football in my presence or don't talk about you know whatever the thing is um

Speaker 1 It's it's one person usually who who is the they're the they're the gatekeeper who says what is progressive enough to be part of the team and what isn't.

Speaker 1 And those are the people we have to, we have to, I think, address that on.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, I don't know if my daughter's going to be upset with me for sharing this, but I was going to say it. So my oldest daughter is gay and

Speaker 2 she has a big group of gay friends. And she called me yesterday.

Speaker 2 She's quite upset that she heard from one of her friends that these a pair of girls in that group want to try to get everybody against my daughter and her and her and her fiancé because they're Zionists.

Speaker 2 So they're like, you know, it's a hot, hot-button subject on the left, you know, the far left.

Speaker 2 And Allie was like, first of all, she's not like a bastion carrying around, she just happens to be Jewish and she, but you know, she's a Zionist.

Speaker 2 And she's not posting nothing, but the fact that they know and they're like gang trying to gang up on her to try and kind of basically out them from this large group for no other reason.

Speaker 2 It's to your point. I mean,

Speaker 2 forget about inclusivity. It's just like,

Speaker 2 you cross this line that, you know, I don't agree with.

Speaker 2 Now you're going to be banned. We're going to team up to ban you from life.
I mean, there's nothing like from nothing else.

Speaker 1 Right. Because

Speaker 1 there's disagreeing about the topics, but there's also a level of respecting where somebody's coming from.

Speaker 1 I mean, like, I don't think anyone in this country, nobody on the planet should be able to look at a Jewish person and say, I fully understand what what it's like to feel that identity unless you are also that person.

Speaker 1 And so maybe, and I, because I'm in the same boat, maybe reserve judgment just a little bit when you're, when you're, when you're encountering somebody with a different opinion that's, that's based around a,

Speaker 1 maybe the core tenet in their, in their identity. Yeah, well, some people just can't do that.

Speaker 2 You know, we, as Democrats, let's say, or liberals, you know, you, you're, you're inclusive. That's the whole, that's been the whole part of like growing up.

Speaker 2 You're like, I'm open, I'm empathetic, I'm inclusive. Like, I'm not judging anybody until they do something that's going to, you know, that's, that throws them, you know, to that way.

Speaker 2 But, but now this, you know, this, this side of it is just to your point. We've got to be, got to figure out a way to kind of heal that divide.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And we're, I think we, especially in that issue, because I, you know, I live in New York City.
So like I, you know, we're in this middle of this

Speaker 1 mayoral race, which is turning into crazy town between

Speaker 1 Zoran Mamdani and Andrew Cuomo in particular. Curtis Slewa is kind of just an amusing like character off to the side saying insane things.

Speaker 1 But, but, you know, like, what I'm really worried about is, you know, people are conflating

Speaker 1 being Jewish with supporting what I would refer to as a genocide. And they're not the same thing.
And I think that people have a tendency to not get that, especially on the far left.

Speaker 1 And it's a problem. And it is a problem.
I mean, that's anti-Semitism right there.

Speaker 1 You should be able to have a conversation about the war in Gaza and and be able to use the terms genocide or war or whatever and disagree with each other but not like cancel each other so you don't have conversations you probably agree on 95 of the other issues now if you're saying that israel has the right to like murder innocent civilians and children and stuff and like be cruel and da da da da da that's different but that's not the situation that you described and i think people i think we just we have to have a little bit more grace with people that we disagree with and i'm not talking about maga where they're like outwardly racist and cruel.

Speaker 1 That's not what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 I'm talking about. There's no grace for MAGA.

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 that's the opposite of purity culture. I mean,

Speaker 1 they have their own purity culture. And that's the thing is

Speaker 1 there are very few people who are going to say, I'm Jewish or

Speaker 1 I support Israel.

Speaker 1 There's like eight layers to this conversation.

Speaker 1 And if you can't be smart enough and careful enough and respectful enough, really, to carefully dissect those layers, where you will find out the the person doesn't want Palestinians to be eradicated.

Speaker 1 They're somewhere between

Speaker 1 full-scale endorsement of genocide and, you know, saying everybody who supports Israel is a genocidal maniac.

Speaker 1 We have to be the people who have those careful conversations because those motherfuckers will never have those careful conversations.

Speaker 1 They're trying to rush to where we just ban careful conversations so that you can have everything be black and white.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, absolutely. So again, it's a point about let's, you know, know, we've got a big pool, but we need to be inclusive.

Speaker 2 We need to kind of make those, you know, if we, if we want to win, you know, because they're pretty, pretty well organized.

Speaker 2 And like I said, the fact that they're shameless is such an advantage to them because they can lie and feel nothing,

Speaker 2 tell the opposite story the next minute and they feel nothing about it.

Speaker 2 You've never seen anything like it.

Speaker 1 Well, the term I always use that Adam Serwer wrote about a long time ago is the cruelty is the point with a lot of people on that side.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's why Donald Trump posted a meme of him literally flying was it over chicago or flying over the no kings rallies dumping dumping feces

Speaker 1 on them literally literally shitting on america americans was was the thing they're not americans they're they're pro-Hamas terrorists right what was the thing Caroline Levitt said I mean come on like yeah Well, and how many

Speaker 1 people seriously? And I don't, I think that Chicago was the same as New York, where I believe there were zero arrests on those No Kings rallies.

Speaker 1 There were some protesters across the country, Trumpers, MAGA people who were arrested for things, but there were

Speaker 1 very few. And, you know, I mean, we all know, Jordan, that, right, that Chicago is a lawless hellscape.
So that's just why it was like that. But

Speaker 1 yeah, do you, yeah, I mean, let's talk a little bit about Chicago. We talked a little bit about the beginning, but like, and I lived there for a very brief period, 2008.
I absolutely loved it.

Speaker 1 I also chose probably the best months to live there, which was August through November.

Speaker 1 And it was unseasonably warm that that year.

Speaker 1 But I have only known, I know Chicago has problems, don't get me wrong, but like I have only known Chicago as being one of the great big cities in this country.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah. I mean, it was just voted again, like the ninth year in a row from Conde Nass as the best big city in America.

Speaker 2 But you mentioned cruelty is the point. So cruelty is the point when it comes to these ICE raids, you know, and the homeland security guy.

Speaker 2 So when they first got here, you know, I live a few blocks from Michigan Avenue. They're marching up and down Michigan Avenue.
Like, you know for what it's such theater

Speaker 2 so they're not yeah they're not law enforcement they're not going to stop anyone that's committing a crime so it's just a show of muscle to intimidate people and then they were driving like uh you know attack boats down the chicago river by the river walk it's like the nicest areas

Speaker 2 what what are you doing like what are you doing

Speaker 2 But then they moved into, you know, the ethnic, you know, Chicago's got these great ethnic neighborhoods, you know, Little Village and Pilsen and Logan Square, and to really disrupt those communities and the cruelty.

Speaker 2 And then now this last week, they've moved into nice affluent neighborhoods, you know, pulling

Speaker 2 housekeepers on their way to work. A guy was

Speaker 2 painting their house and they're, you know, they're chasing them down the street, tackling them.

Speaker 2 Yesterday,

Speaker 2 two days ago in an old Irving neighborhood, they were having a Halloween parade when they pulled a painter off one of the houses.

Speaker 2 They chased him on the street and then they filmed tear mass, Like with the kids around, I mean, yes, just absolutely insane. And you can see videos of them shoving women onto the ground.

Speaker 2 So I saw that.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Just absolutely atrocious behavior.

Speaker 2 Your automation. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's performative, right? I mean, for people who don't know Chicago, Michigan Ave is probably the biggest street or most well-known street in the city. And

Speaker 1 I worked on Michigan Ave and walked there every day.

Speaker 1 I lived within the loop. And

Speaker 1 I mean, look, like you'll, you know, there's homeless people and stuff, some, but like, it is a very, like, very trafficked, very busy city. Same with the Chicago River, right?

Speaker 1 All these nice restaurants. It's all performative.
It's all performative bullshit. And that's why when they went in D.C., they were like down by like the Smithsonian.
And I'm like,

Speaker 1 there's nothing here.

Speaker 1 It's just, it's just performative. And then you see this cruelty of them ripping these people, you know, violently with masks on and not identifying themselves.
And it is just outrageous. But

Speaker 1 it seems,

Speaker 2 I think, like, you know, Chicago's got an outspoken mayor, it's got an outspoken, you know, JB has done a great job of really fighting back against drug.

Speaker 2 So I think if they can make Chicago, if they can, you know, conquer Chicago, they can bring Chicago to its knees, I think that's, it'll bring this, if Chicago falls, the country falls because it's like a bastion of blue.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 there were some ice raids apparently in Manhattan the last few days, and there are some videos which, really, to be perfectly honest, it doesn't look like it went too well for the

Speaker 1 ICE guys. There was a woman, I think, who stood in front of one of their vehicles, kind of like Tiananmen Square style,

Speaker 1 which, you know, I thought was incredibly brave, but also just a testament to people who live in large cities. And I know the people in Chicago like this too.
It's like,

Speaker 1 We love our cities. We do not need you.
Stop lying about us. And maybe if if we want to really focus on the problem of crime, red states have higher crime rates than blue states.

Speaker 1 It's just more spread out. So it doesn't seem as bad because you don't have the concentration of people.

Speaker 1 But this is, you know, this is what MAGA does, the war against, you know, the blue areas, which also have the majority of the economic output in the country,

Speaker 1 have the most people, generally have the best schools, yada, yada, yada. So yeah, we see, we see this.
So, all right. Well, Jordan, we told you we were going to leave 20, 30 minutes.
We're at 50.

Speaker 1 So we've done really well but i want to ask because i know no no no no no no no no no it's great um

Speaker 2 i just to close sure how is how is your life now would you ever do a would you ever be the golden bachelor what's your situation how are you doing like how are you doing and like what's life like um i met a girl i have a girlfriend i have a great girlfriend yeah i met her not from the show but it was like ancillary i was at the bear game uh we met there um so that's great.

Speaker 2 And my kids are great. I've got a couple.
One daughter's married, two or engaged. You know, Chicago, I said, you know, as much as they try, Chicago is still an amazing place to live.

Speaker 2 There's everything you could want here. So I'm not going to let them ruin it for us.
So it's great.

Speaker 2 Still playing sports and happy as could be.

Speaker 2 Would I be, you know, now that I have someone, I wouldn't necessarily want to be on a dating show, but another type of show would be fun because that whole show experience is behind the scenes of what goes on.

Speaker 2 It's fun. There's no question about it.
You're getting

Speaker 2 a lot of things. It's a lot, there's a lot of, there's some perks.

Speaker 1 Well, I want to ask you one final important question because we, so not so much me, but a few of, a few of our co-hosts are starting to get recognized on the street, both from this and from their large social profiles.

Speaker 1 So you are on a show that got millions of viewers per week. So you are probably far ahead of us.
What is it like to have people come up to you and act like they know you?

Speaker 1 Because we need some prep, because I know at some point someone's going to say something in New York and I'm probably going to embarrass myself by like free, like, you know, stumbling or mumbling or whatever.

Speaker 1 But what is that like?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, it's, it's not enough that it's bothersome. So it's pretty, it's been very fun.
I mean, it's been a little over a year where it since started and it's, it's been great.

Speaker 2 There hasn't really been many bad encounters. Usually most of them are like, how do I know you? You know, I see them out and they're like, oh, I know you.
I'm like, ah, you don't know me.

Speaker 2 You think you know me.

Speaker 1 Like, yeah, no, I know you.

Speaker 2 You were like, you coach, one of my kids' coaches. I'm like, no, I just was on a TV show.
So it goes like that. And then just like recently, you know, you get, people have really, been really nice.

Speaker 2 You know, they're like, you were my favorite. Or like, you know, I've loved your journey, that kind of stuff.
So it's, it's really fun.

Speaker 2 You know, it's like I said, it opens some doors up as well. So it's, it's, I, I, I embrace it.
I fully embrace it.

Speaker 2 Take pictures with people, you know, have them tag me in the comments and that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 Jordan, I have to thank you for coming on because in the spirit of not gatekeeping topics and conversations, I

Speaker 1 may

Speaker 1 be a person who in some other phase of my life would have scoffed at the idea of talking about reality TV or talking to a reality TV contestant on a political podcast because what kind of a monster would talk about reality TV when the real world is so serious?

Speaker 2 Oh my God, yeah.

Speaker 1 And yet here we are.

Speaker 1 And it's been really nice to talk to you and hear about your experience and discover that you're not like AI. You're just a real, you are actually a human being.

Speaker 1 Who was on the show? Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, I'm listening.

Speaker 2 If I get the chance, I'm glad to talk politics.

Speaker 2 I'm slightly,

Speaker 2 I think I'm well-versed. Maybe not as well-versed as you guys, but I'm pretty deep into it.
And I'm extremely impressed.

Speaker 1 We make it up as we go along. So you can do the same.
Look, Chris. I said we make it up as we go along.
So, Jordan, feel free to do that.

Speaker 2 I'm, you know, I think, like all of you guys, I'm fearful of what is ahead. And we, we need fighters.
So, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I want to fight.

Speaker 2 I'm, it's too valuable to let these guys just take their, take it from us.

Speaker 1 Well, I think we're going to, we have been talking a lot about how to

Speaker 1 build community

Speaker 1 on the ground, not just online, but on the ground. And I think, you know, you and you guys showing the experience that you had on the show, you know, shows that there is a desperate need for this.

Speaker 1 I mean, imagine, like you said, you guys had talked about like, how do we take this feeling and this camaraderie and bring it to other people? And I think that's the thing we have to figure out.

Speaker 1 And I think on the fight out side, like, you know, we're working on some

Speaker 1 digital ways that people could stay in touch with each other without having to worry about, you know,

Speaker 1 Elon or Zuck monitoring your stuff. And also like how we do in real life stuff, because I think we just lost too much of that.

Speaker 1 And I think you guys showed the power of what that can be, even like, you know, it wrapped up in a reality show.

Speaker 1 But like, really, like, what you're telling us is like, what we actually saw in that particular case was reality and got guys

Speaker 1 talking, sharing feeling, like, my God, sharing feelings. And like it being, it's okay to cry in front of a friend.
Like, and I don't think a lot of, I grew up in New England like in the 80s and 90s.

Speaker 1 And, you know, it wasn't necessarily like widespread well known that you could actually do that or wouldn't be mocked for it. And I think we need more of that.

Speaker 1 And I think, you know, I think it was great that they showed as much as they did. And I think it shows that there is work that we need to do both to help men on all sides.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I think in the reality, like, if you connect people with their empathetic core, they're more likely to move leftward. So I think this is all really, really important.

Speaker 1 So, so, Jordan, thank you very much. Thank you for sharing this.
We're so glad everything's going well in Chicago, helping to dispel the myths of that bullshit too.

Speaker 1 We're happy to have you back or help, you know, if people like we should definitely talk some more because I think there's something here and you know, you guys are great advocates for it as well.

Speaker 1 And, you know, can, you know, it sounds like you all want to use your new faith, newfound

Speaker 1 fame startup.

Speaker 1 Notoriety?

Speaker 2 Slight notoriety.

Speaker 1 Can help.

Speaker 1 So folks, if you have ideas about what we could potentially do to help uh make these in real life or connections possible you know where to find us and and jordan i'm going to make you stick around for our last final bit that i always do

Speaker 1 which is basically just hawking our merchandise okay so thank you guys this has been fantastic i uh i really loved it and hopefully i'll get to do it again and if not we can talk offline and some ideas that grow this community you know that is as large as we need to grow it well that what people don't know is jordan and i spoke for like 40 45 minutes the other day and it was, it was really great to, you know, talk ideas and kind of being like, yes, no, we have to do this, validating what we have been thinking about and find out, I think, also help I hoping, validating with Jordan the stuff that he and the guys have been talking about, about how we need to do this.

Speaker 1 So we appreciate that. Before I say goodbye, I am going to hawk our merch, which I'm showing here.
And I do have my, I voted early in New York City today.

Speaker 1 So if you're in New York, you should definitely do that.

Speaker 1 Or also if you're in Virginia and New Jersey, New Jersey in particular, if you're a Democrat, get your vote in. That race is closer than it should be.

Speaker 1 But once you're done voting, you should go to the Find Out store.

Speaker 1 Rich is laughing because I pull this shit every time. You know, Jordan, I got to say, Jordan's objectively a good-looking guy.
We know this. Yeah.
Right. Yes.

Speaker 1 But I think he'd be even better looking if next time he's on the show, he's wearing a Find Out shirt. And there he is.

Speaker 1 Our most popular Find Out shirt right now has all of our faces on it. That's right.

Speaker 1 I don't have, and I'm actually today, like I said, I was last week, I'm wearing the sweatshirt with this, but I'm also wearing

Speaker 1 the t-shirt

Speaker 1 with it as well.

Speaker 1 So he doesn't have any other clothes. So he just

Speaker 1 rotates.

Speaker 1 We owe Brian Andrews, who was on last week, the Country Singer, a shirt. Jordan, we owe you a shirt.

Speaker 1 I think I'm just realizing now we're going to just, we've got to add to the budget though if we're going to have to give shirts to everybody who comes. I guess we got to do that now.

Speaker 1 We should charge people to be on. Charge them like $100 to be on, and then they get that $35 shirt and we net out.
We should talk about this stuff.

Speaker 1 I always yell at these guys to stop talking and hit record, but this one, now we're committed to spending money.

Speaker 1 Well, now I know. See, this is what you get when we just start riffing and we aren't thinking about it.
Yeah, I'm trying to imagine me.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm trying to imagine me going to like a political candidate and saying, yes, we'd love for you to come on the show.

Speaker 1 We just need a check for $100.

Speaker 1 Like, I just see how that would be. It's going to be $100.
We might as as well do that. Yeah, it's going to be higher than $100, right? Like, if we're going to, yeah, we got $1,000? It's elite.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's immediate.

Speaker 1 I think there's something illegal about that. So we probably should stay away from that since we probably are on the

Speaker 1 illustration radar. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Just, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But we like the merch is all made in America.
It's union made. It's super comfortable.
You can get yours at findoutpodcast.com. And I think I'm going to leave it there.
So, Jordan, thank you.

Speaker 1 This has been awesome.

Speaker 1 Everybody, have a great day.

Speaker 1 We will be back on Thursday with another episode, probably not

Speaker 1 with somebody as high profile as Jordan being on a national TV show, but it will be somebody good, I promise. So, have a great day, everybody.
Thanks, we'll talk soon. Thanks, Jordan.
Bye.