The Girlfriends S3/Bonus Ep 1: Lisa and Bruna

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Hey, girlfriends, it's Anna here.

Welcome to the first of four special bonus episodes of the Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer.

In these episodes, we'll give you a sneak peek behind the curtain of our production.

You'll hear extra interviews and conversations that we gathered while reporting on Kelly's story.

And this episode is one of my favourites.

Just a warning: this conversation includes a lot about addiction and substance abuse, and probably some colorful language.

But you'll also get to hear a story of how a mother and daughter survived one tragedy after another, and how, in the end, their struggle brought them together.

One day, about three or so years ago in Queens, New York, Judge Bruna DiBiasi is sitting in court when she hears a voice.

He said, Judge, can I speak to you?

And I know this is strange.

It's an attorney she knows well, and he's looking a little sheepish.

You know, you did the case of Kelly Harnett, and I know her.

I've represented her, and she's really very sincere, but she wants to come and see you and thank you.

It's an unusual request.

Defendants don't usually make calls to the judge's chamber.

But of course, not all defendants defendants are like Kelly Harnett.

She did in fact come to see me in the courtroom.

She came in person and the officers alerted me that there was someone here who wanted to see me who had a dozen roses.

This isn't just a nice gesture.

You'll remember that Kelly is a devout follower of Saint Therese, a Catholic saint, whose signature token is a rose.

Everything Kelly believes and holds near to her heart is represented in these flowers.

If you look look behind you, you see that vase with the red roses there, red silk roses.

Those are the roses.

I still keep them in a vase in chambers.

And she spoke to me from a distance and she came up and she said, hello, Judge D.B.

Azzi, and then I just embraced her and hugged her.

Do you remember what you spoke about?

Her gratitude

mostly was gratitude.

She shared with me that by not delaying her case, she was able to spend time with her mother, who then, I think, died three weeks after she was released.

So that was her biggest gratitude, that I didn't delay her case, and that as a result of that, she was able to be with her mother when her mom passed.

Once you leave Supreme Criminal Court, you really don't want to come back, even if it's with good news.

Some do, but she was definitely the most enthusiastic and willing, and I'm sure she would come back every day if she could.

I don't doubt that.

I still find it hard to reckon with the idea of a judge physically embracing a formerly incarcerated person.

The system doesn't usually give room for that sort of warmth.

But just like Kelly isn't like all the other defendants, Bruno isn't like all the other judges.

My life experiences, I think, now

informs how I operate in those courts.

And I would say now I feel more of an insider to understanding the underlying issues that bring someone into court.

Around 13 years ago, Judge Bruner's son, Eric, died of a drug overdose.

Then, just a few years later, her daughter Lisa nearly ended up going down the same path.

But this time,

It was someone else who died because of her addiction.

In today's episode, I'm going to sit down with this mother and daughter who accidentally and tragically found themselves on different sides of the law.

I'm Anna Sinfield.

I'm from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts.

This is The Girlfriends, Jailhouse Lawyer.

Yes, I've got me

got

you.

Bonus episode one: Lisa and Bruna.

Mommy, can I sit on this?

Yeah, of course.

I didn't know if it was like a fixture or.

Is that just day call?

Right.

It's October 3rd, 2024.

And I'm sitting in Judge Bruna DiBiazzi's chambers.

It should have an air of authority to it.

Maybe even grandiosity.

But it doesn't.

I'm here to see Bruna the judge,

but I'm also here to see Bruna the mother,

who's sitting here with her daughter Lisa

they're both kind of equal parts warm and brisk as Queen's natives are want to be and they're both fussing over what I'm gonna eat with an apple here staring at you just start chopping on the apple okay I'm experiencing the Italian-American hospitality yeah

Bruna is on and off the phone to her aging father making sure he made it to his doctor's appointment.

After that, she FaceTimes her husband so I can meet him he's also a judge and as i'm mildly shocked to learn a leather-wearing biker okay shall we bruna and lisa are being gorgeous together both worried that the other hasn't eaten needs water there's a purposefulness to their interactions because

they're new

lisa only just got out of prison a month ago and you can tell that they're still figuring out how to be together again in real time

So, what is your relationship like as mother and daughter?

I can't believe that.

We are mother and we are daughter.

And what is our relationship like?

Our relationship is wonderful.

It's

probably going to be impossible for me not to get emotional.

It's very open,

tremendous communication.

one of trust.

And I emphasize those things because

it wasn't always like that on my end

you know i have a mother that is loving and giving sacrificing and i know that i was very resistant to that for a long time um and when i was it was when i was in act of addiction and i couldn't even understand why i was so resistant to that our relationship is one of gratitude i think today I think so too.

We'll get into why and how Lisa's addiction began to take hold and impact their relationship.

But first, I want to put an image in your mind of a young Bruna DiBiasi born in Manhattan and raised in Queens.

Could we understand a little bit more about your life kind of growing up so we can know who has ended up at this desk?

My dad was a New York City cop,

very strict.

I always say the reason I went to law school is because the only thing I was allowed to do was study.

But back when she's still a a student, Bruna almost takes another path.

I was a psychology major.

I wanted to help people.

I wanted to become a psychologist, a psychiatrist, more in that area.

It all changes after she gets what should be a prestigious internship with a New York State senator.

All the young ladies who were in the internship program were really assigned to do the secretarial functions in the senator's office.

And I remember watching all the men who had the positions of authority and who were lawyers.

And I remember coming back home to my father and saying to him, I could do what they do, daddy.

And I applied to law school really like at the last minute, my final year of college.

And that just changed the path of my life.

Love that.

So you kind of got here as an act of stubborn defiance against the men.

You know,

yes.

Earlier in Bruna's Bruna's career, she was already working on improving the court system,

bringing in a bit of that drive to help people from her psychology days.

Before I became a judge, I was chief of staff to a statewide administrative judge.

And in that role,

we were tasked with creating in the New York state court system problem-solving courts.

And problem-solving courts was really a unique concept to address the underlying issue that would bring somebody into court.

We were working on mental health courts.

We were working on creating domestic violence courts, drug courts, veterans courts, adolescent courts.

And when you say domestic violence courts, youth courts and stuff, that means that those are courts that are set up specifically to deal with just domestic violence cases.

Yes, that's correct.

I was helping to create training programs and to begin these projects.

And at that time, they didn't seem to touch my life.

But that all changes when Bruno's son, Eric, dies in 2012 following a battle with drug addiction.

This family, who from the outside must have looked untouchable, is suddenly blown apart.

Probably the greatest fear someone has is to lose a child.

I remember someone once said to me, well, I lost my son.

I don't know how you go forward.

I don't know how you could

continue living.

So what do you do now?

Do you fall apart or do you pause, think about it, and decide to pick yourself up and move forward?

I think we were all grieving in different ways and in some ways separate.

And then slowly I started getting into drinking.

And then that led into drug use as well.

I was severely addicted to alcohol and severely addicted to cocaine.

I didn't know I was making the decisions I was making.

I just, I was trying to survive and navigate through pain.

And I remember saying to my mother when Eric was still alive

and his addiction was just taking over, I remember thinking

he's going to end up in prison and I'm, I don't know how I'm going to be able to handle.

I'll be scared thinking about what that would be like for him every day.

And then fast forward and here I was inside of jail.

So this is not a light conversation.

This is heavy.

This is.

Are you guys doing okay?

Yes.

Yeah, we're, I mean, you know, we're, we're open and we're honest.

On October 30th, 2019, Lisa gets into her car after spending the evening in a bar.

On the drive home, Lisa's driving 85 in a 40-mile-an-hour zone.

She's twice the legal alcohol limit.

She has cocaine in her system.

And the floor of her Chevrolet Silverado is littered with bags of it.

At one point, Lisa swerves violently.

She says to avoid an oncoming car.

Struggling to regain control, she collides with a cyclist.

His name is John James Uzma Quintero.

John's taken to the hospital, but his injuries are too severe.

He's pronounced dead that same day.

He leaves behind a daughter back home in Colombia, who he'd been sending money to that he made from his job at the 7-Eleven.

When I committed my crime and Mr.

Usma Quintero died because of it,

it changed everything.

Lisa pleads guilty to multiple charges, including vehicular manslaughter and aggravated driving while intoxicated.

But due to COVID-19 restrictions, her sentencing is delayed for more than a year and a half.

It's not until September of 2021 that she's back in court for that.

Her mother, Bruna, is by her side.

I remember his brother and his mother in the courtroom, and I watched my parents lose a child, and he was a child.

There are always two sides that grieve, and we had tremendous grief.

And so...

You know, for me, my grief for the family was a knowing one.

As a parent who lost a child, I understand from having experienced it myself.

So it was hard.

We grieve, we still grieve for them.

On September 9th, 2021, Lisa is sentenced to three to nine years in state prison.

You don't really want anyone else to experience the pain and horror of

that.

And those were three years that I lived that.

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Prison is difficult physically, mentally, emotionally.

You get stripped spiritually.

It's loud.

There's a lot of chaos going on.

And,

you know, you're always in survival mode in some aspect at first there were times when i couldn't even hug her so i would see her but we couldn't have physical contact and so that to me was hard i remember the first time i got a hug from you and it startled me i haven't i haven't hugged somebody i haven't gotten a hug from somebody in i don't know what it was six months at that point I was able to visit my daughter because I'm in a different position, but it was obvious to me there were hundreds of women in the facility and on visiting days, there were maybe at most eight to ten women who had visitors.

And

I did learn from my daughter that there are some women who don't get packages, who don't get commissary money.

And so, I mean, think about that too, you know, and think about the fact that they make, I don't know, how much 25 cents an hour?

No, 14.

14 cents an hour.

And if they have, if they have fines,

restitution is is deducted from the 14, 15 cents an hour they make.

And so half of that, or a percentage of that, goes to the fines.

And what they're left was with that money to make purchases in commissary.

If they're not getting packages,

it's impossible.

Bruna visits Lisa as much as she can.

And when she's not there physically, she makes sure she's always there at the other end of the phone.

I would speak to her every morning.

I would speak to her in the evening.

But I assure you I was the only judge in the building who was receiving calls from prison, and I would always make sure I took those calls.

On the phone, Lisa tells Bruna about all the things she's getting up to to pass the time.

She'd already gotten clean.

Because her crime had happened around COVID, the case moved really slowly.

But it meant she could spend a year in rehab before prison.

I immersed myself into recovery and it was a very scary time, but I just took all the suggestions and I wanted to live differently.

Once Lisa got to prison, she just wanted to be useful.

I stayed very, very busy while I was incarcerated.

Any type of positive program,

I put myself out there and I applied myself and worked hard to become a part of.

She did welding.

And she was part of the outside ground crew.

I was only one of three individuals out of the whole population.

It's a very trusted position.

And most excitingly, she rehabilitated shelter dogs.

Also, on top of that, I had the opportunity to go back to school.

I became part of the BPI program that BARD offers.

BARD is BARD College, and BPI is their prison initiative program.

I earned 36 college credits.

It was very important for me once I immersed in that program to see that I doubted my level of intelligence as a woman for a very long time.

And it reminded me that I am an intelligent thinking woman and Bard was wonderful.

The way the professors interact with us as students was very like we were their equals and that is difficult to find in the prison environment when you're wearing green.

Wearing green.

I can't imagine it's something Lisa ever thought she'd do.

She's a judge's daughter.

And yet, here she is, surrounded by the sort of women her mother sends to prison.

And she's starting to realize

they're not so different from her.

I have yet to come across a woman on the inside that didn't have a trauma or some relation to addiction.

Most women are in there because they committed their crime while in act of addiction.

A lot of domestic violence cases, too.

A lot of survivors.

Everyone has a story.

I've met women that have been in there for 20, 25 years.

And these women, I just like, how do you get through this?

It was very difficult for me at the end of my sentence.

And I'll say, I only did three years compared to some of these women.

That was hard for me in the end.

I was starting to break.

If the point was to break me,

I was getting there.

Next,

Lisa comes home

and Judge Bruner gets her daughter back.

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Where do you see the business actually heading?

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United Healthcare Nurse Crystal checked in on a patient.

We do a routine call after surgery, and I could tell in her voice that she was struggling.

Crystal knew she needed help.

And I knew that this is very serious.

This is like septic.

This is life-threatening.

And she knew just what to do.

And I called the hospital and said she's coming in, here are her labs.

And got her the help she needed.

I see my role at United Healthcare as a life-saving role.

Hear more stories like crystals at UHC.com.

Benefits, features, and her devices vary by plant area.

Limitation and exclusions apply.

Today is October 3rd, and I was released on September 9th.

Nope, September 5th.

So a little less than a month.

And how are you finding it?

So I'm good.

I am good.

I'm great.

I'm very grateful to be with my family.

I'm very grateful to be back home.

And so

now that I'm out,

you don't necessarily have somebody telling you you have to be here this time.

This is when you eat.

This is when you lock in.

This is when you do those things.

And I have lots of lots of love and support coming in, which I cherish.

So it's a little bit overwhelming in the best way, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

You're like figuring out how to be your own autonomous human being again on the outside of freedom.

And

yeah, like in a lot of ways,

yes, like in a lot of ways, your choices are made for you on the inside.

You're told where to go, when to go and what to do.

And so, so of course I'm under supervision and I welcome that.

But now, you know, I'm free to answer back certain people or not, or your day-to-day tasks.

So trying to open up a bank account or, you know, like I said, walk the dogs, you know, trying to train my dogs, old dogs, new tricks.

So.

Yes, dogs aren't anything new.

When Lisa went in, she had two dogs and she left them with us.

And I have a dog, so we became a family of three dogs.

Wow.

Mom took on the dogs.

It was busy home.

There's a lot going on.

Yeah.

And Bruna, how has it felt having Lisa home?

I probably cleaned the house a hundred times before she came home.

And Lisa kept reminding me that no matter how many times I cleaned it, it was a hundred times better than where she was coming from.

Still, I wanted everything to be just so for her.

Do you feel like you've got your daughter back?

I do.

In fact, that was what I've always said.

I feel like I got my daughter back.

I said that to her once.

I said that to her when she was in recovery.

I said, I feel like I have my daughter back.

And she actually said to me, You don't have your daughter back, mom,

because the person I am now never existed before.

You are a different person.

I mean, how can you not?

When things happen to you in your life, how can you not?

You know, life changes us, life moves forward.

I guess, like, one of my final questions is:

Bruna, how has this affected your work as a judge?

Has it affected it at all?

Having had an incarcerated daughter

has informed my decisions now about the length of a sentence individual should receive.

I don't know that it's the length of a sentence that rehabilitates or breaks a person.

I feel now with all the knowledge that I have about addiction, about making services available to the young kids who appear in my court, and not just the kids.

If I think, and I strongly support that, if someone has an underlying addiction, our resources are better spent in putting the resources into treating the addiction, especially someone who wants to be treated.

Generally, do you have sort of like ambitions for the future?

I know there's a lot that you're sorting out, so you don't have to do like a 15-year plan, but.

Yeah, there's so much that I know about myself now that I am

sober and in in recovery for just about five years, you know, God willing.

We take it one day at a time.

You know, I think I'll always be somebody that's

resilient, relentless,

striving for better.

Of course, for myself, but because that helps the people around me that I love.

But it's very important for me to stay of service.

Lisa's working at a place called Release Recovery.

It's where she got clean before her prison sentence.

I would love to turn that into a career.

I would love to stay in the recovery world.

I mean, one of the reasons why I stay in a 12-step program and go to meetings is to give to those what was so freely given to me, right?

Like, I remember when I was first getting sober, and people showed up for me in a way that I could not show up for myself, and that made all the difference.

And they sat with me, and they listened to me, and they cared for me, and that has carried me.

So, So if I can continue on that path, that would continue

a world beyond my wildest dreams.

That's amazing.

And Bruno, I know the perspective is a little different as a mother.

So what would you like for Lisa?

The same.

I support her vision.

I love her vision.

I think it's beautiful.

And she has taught me also that

to value every day that's a good day.

And, you know, and so today is a good day.

I thank you for being with us.

and i thank you for giving me the opportunity to hear these words from my daughter

the pain that both bruna and lisa have been through separately together it's tangible

you can hear it in their voices and i can see it in the way that they look at each other when they're speaking but i also see a deep persevering love between a mother and a daughter, between a judge and a former prisoner.

And now I'm going to get a little bit woo-woo here, but just indulge me.

Something I've come to believe deeply during the making of this podcast series is that every extra turn that we get to spend on this silly little planet is a blessing.

It's why it must be taken seriously when that opportunity, the opportunity of life, is taken from someone.

But it also means that we have to grant people like Lisa the opportunity to actually live too, to grow, and to move on.

Judge D.B.S.I.

puts it a bit more succinctly.

I say to the kids in my court that we all fall down in life, but what matters is what you do when you pick yourself up, because remember, what is possible is greater than what is past.

Look to the future because you can't change the past.

But what if we can change how people look at it?

In our next bonus episode, I delve into a case that at one point seemed clean cut.

Woman violently attacks man and admits it.

But years later, the way people and the law look at this case has changed.

So buckle up because next week I give you my most challenging case study yet.

And I ask, what should the state have done with Tina?

I'm looking at this Grease Boy

and I'm still thinking of not just him per se.

It was about

everything in life.

I'm back on drugs.

I've disappointed so many people that don't know I'm back on drugs again.

I remember putting the pot down on that radiator.

Like I had two voices.

One was saying, don't do this.

This is so wrong.

And another, like,

fuck that.

The Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer is produced by Novel for iHeart podcasts.

For more from Novel, visit novel.audio.

The show is hosted by me, Anna Sinfield, and is written and produced by me and Lee Meyer with additional production from Jaco Tyvich and Michael Ginnow.

Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr.

The editors are Georgia Moody and me Anna Sinfield.

Production management from Cherie Houston, Joe Savage and Charlotte Wolfe.

Our fact checker is Dania Suleiman.

Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander.

Music supervision by me, Anna Sinfield, Lee Meyer and Nicholas Alexander.

Original music composed by Nicholas Alexander, Daniel Kempson, and Louisa Gerstein.

Story development by Nell Gray Andrews and Willard Foxton, creative director of Novel.

Max O'Brien and Craig Strachan are our executive producers for Novel.

And Katrina Norvell and Nikki Etor are the executive producers for iHeart Podcasts.

And the marketing lead is Alison Cantor.

Thanks also to Carrie Lieberman and the whole team at WME.

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