Glenn Beck Reacts to Passing of Pope Francis | Guest: Daniel Kokotajlo | 4/21/25

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Speaker 4 Why am I here? I'll tell you about that coming up. Also, we want to talk,

Speaker 4 really, I have a few things to say about all of this back and forth on Donald Trump being, again, as dangerous as Hitler because he's sending people out.

Speaker 4 He's liquidating people. He's what?

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Speaker 4 we shouldn't allow some people to be heard.

Speaker 4 Excuse me? No, I think everybody has this upside down and inside out. And I'll explain that coming up.
Also, the Pope died while you were asleep.

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Speaker 4 all right so yesterday uh for easter by the way

Speaker 1 happy easter stu happy eastern day after a day after easter yes 364 days till the next one

Speaker 4 thank you very much wow how do you do that and you are you a mathematician no uh jd vance uh jd vance was with the pope uh on easter and then the pope dies that's all i'm gonna say i'm just gonna leave it there i'm just gonna you draw your own conclusions america No, he had a good conversation, apparently, with the Pope,

Speaker 4 and the Pope died. He was very, very sick in the hospital.
He had pneumonia. So,

Speaker 4 we're back to the voting for a new Pope. Now, if I may,

Speaker 4 let me just tell you a story that I don't think most in the media even understand.

Speaker 4 And if they do, they certainly won't touch it.

Speaker 4 But I was there back in 2013, I think. Rob, what did we decide? It was 12 or 13, something like that.

Speaker 4 I was at the Vatican. I was supposed to meet with the Pope.
I met instead with a bunch of the high advisors for the Pope.

Speaker 4 And it was Pope Benedict at the time.

Speaker 4 And I just want to talk to you about what I learned there

Speaker 4 and...

Speaker 4 What we need to understand

Speaker 4 on this last Pope, because there was a quiet coup inside of the walls of the Vatican.

Speaker 4 The first public victim of the deep state was not a president of the United States. It was the pope.
It wasn't a priest, wasn't a whistleblower. It was Pope Benedict.

Speaker 4 Benedict wasn't just a conservative, although he was a staunch conservative. He was absolutely immovable.
He was elected in 2005. He stood for everything the modern world wanted the church to abandon.

Speaker 4 He was moral.

Speaker 4 He had moral clarity. He was a traditionalist and a spiritual authority.
And

Speaker 4 my first realization that Pope Francis was going to be none of these things is when the media was talking about, you know, they kept doing the white smoke and the black smoke.

Speaker 4 And they finally had, I don't remember what it is, the white or the black smoke, and it came out and they knew they had a pope. And so they were waiting and they were speculating.

Speaker 4 Everybody on CNN and ABC, they were all speculating. Who could it possibly be? And they started to speculate.
And they would say, it's probably this cardinal. Oh, he's a real hardliner.

Speaker 4 He's going to be really bad. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Then they finally came up to this Pope. I don't remember what his real name is, but

Speaker 4 they mentioned him. And they said, well, we don't know much about him.
And within 10 minutes, everybody on every network started talking about how great he was going to be. He was practically Jesus.

Speaker 4 And then

Speaker 4 when he was named Francis, oh, see, he is Jesus or Saint Francis, take your pick. And I remember looking at Yustu and saying, oh, boy, we're in trouble.
They like him.

Speaker 4 This guy's going to be a nightmare.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 you had Benedict who would not compromise on life, no surrender on marriage, no applause for you know, the modern world. And the globalist hated him.

Speaker 4 The media called him rigid, progressive called him dangerous, and the machine went to work behind closed doors because that machine is in every government.

Speaker 4 And make no mistake, the Vatican is a government.

Speaker 4 Scandal after scandal,

Speaker 4 corruption, abuse, all real problems, yes, but they were used to discredit this Pope and to stabilize his papacy. And he refused to ban.
And then suddenly, in 2013, he resigns.

Speaker 4 Now, I remember when this happened, gang.

Speaker 4 Let's put this into what we now know. Okay.

Speaker 4 We now know who replaced him. We now have seen the deep state in governments all across the world.

Speaker 4 We have seen people being voted for, and the deep state didn't like them. And so they say, nope, not him.

Speaker 4 We've seen them throw people into jail. Okay.

Speaker 4 So by 2013, he resigns, and he's he's the first pope in 600 years to resign. And it's because he was too frail.
He was too frail. He was too tired.
Biden wasn't,

Speaker 4 but Benedict was.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 And yet he lived.

Speaker 4 For nearly 10 years he lived. He wrote.
He was speaking. He was warning.
He stayed in the Vatican inside the walls. He stayed in the Vatican.
He wore white. He signed his name Pope Emeritus.

Speaker 4 That's not retirement. That's him not really resigning.
That's resistance. That's what that was.
And into that void came Pope Francis. Okay.
Immediately, everything about the church changed.

Speaker 4 There was global applause. Oh my gosh, climate change sermons.
Remember those?

Speaker 4 They were great. Doctrinal ambiguity to where the point where Catholics were like, wait a minute, what is he saying here?

Speaker 4 Suddenly, the church is less about salvation, more about sustainability and collective salvation, less moral compass, more moral relativism, and it seemed as though the fix was in.

Speaker 4 Now, even members of some press overseas were saying,

Speaker 4 this was a coup.

Speaker 4 Apparently,

Speaker 4 Benedict left a box, it's called a white box, full of scandal files. And it was not a gift to Pope Francis.
It was a warning. He knew, he saw it coming.

Speaker 4 So it wasn't a resignation. It was a removal from office, a soft coup by the progressive faction inside the church, who was eager to align Rome with Davos.
And make no mistake, Davos was there.

Speaker 4 The UN was there.

Speaker 4 You know, all the global priorities of the UN and Davos were there that have nothing to do with God.

Speaker 4 But now the church was aligned with all of it.

Speaker 4 I remember going,

Speaker 4 as I said, we were supposed to meet with the Pope, and I went and I met with several cardinals, I think the good cardinals, and I saw stuff that I had never seen before.

Speaker 4 It was amazing. I saw the church as political and as spiritual at the same time.

Speaker 4 I'm a former Catholic, so I respect the Catholic Church. I also, you know, am no dummy.
It is a political organization.

Speaker 4 I think most churches can, you know, go that direction, but especially one that's, you know, what, 2,000 years old, 1,900 years old.

Speaker 4 I think it could probably go awry from time to time and go political because that's what it... That's what it was for a very long time.
And I remember seeing the guy who I think was in charge.

Speaker 4 Is Jason out there? See if Jason can come in for a second. There was a guy that Jason was with me.
Can you, Rob, can you open up one of those mics? Do you know?

Speaker 4 Jason, remember when we were at the Vatican? You were in the room. Remember that big map room? It was like we were in the Godfather? Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 4 I don't remember what that place was, but it was, you know, like near the Vatican, right around the Vatican. And it was a place where they went and they they held, you know,

Speaker 4 dignitaries and held functions there. And it was amazing.
It was like a three-story room that we were in, and they were the biggest maps of the world I've ever seen.

Speaker 4 And all of the, I mean, it was incredible. And it had to be 400 years old.
Would you agree with that? Oh, yeah. Okay, so it's just steeped in, quite honestly, Dan Brown kind of.

Speaker 4 Totally Dan Brown, right? Totally that. And I had just gotten out of the archives

Speaker 4 the day before. And I don't even know how I got this invitation, but I was given an invitation.
And even the guy who consulted the Pope

Speaker 4 for doctrinal issues.

Speaker 4 When we were, I don't know, a quarter of the way into the archives, he was with me. And I asked him a question.
And he said, don't ask me, ask him. I've never been allowed in here.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 the next day, when we were getting a tour from the head of the Vatican Museum,

Speaker 4 He said, you'll never guess where they were yesterday. And he said, you know, they were in the Vatican archives.
And

Speaker 4 she stopped. She was the head of the museum.
She stopped and she looked at me and she's like, tell me about it. What was that like?

Speaker 4 So like, I don't know how we got in there, but we were asked to go in.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 we're experiencing all of this stuff. And that night, we were with, I don't even remember who they were, but they were the most Christ-like, you know, cardinals and preachers or whatever they were

Speaker 4 that I had been with the whole time. They were so kind.
You could just feel the goodness coming off of them. They were real servants of God.

Speaker 4 And we were all standing around talking, and you could tell everybody's guard in that group, everybody's guard was up. And all of a sudden, and I'm not kidding you, the room dropped 10 degrees.
And

Speaker 4 I happened to be facing, looking at the door way across this huge room. And here comes this guy.
I don't know if he was a cardinal. Wasn't he in charge of all of the Pope's schedule or something?

Speaker 4 Something like that. Yeah.
Okay. So he was the main guy that, you know, you had to get by if you were going to get to the Pope.
And the room dropped, it became cold. And I said, holy cow,

Speaker 4 who is that guy? And the whole, the whole group of really nice guys turned around and looked at him. And one of them turned back and went, oh, you can feel that? And I said, oh,

Speaker 4 yeah, just feel no offense. I didn't know if they liked him or not.
I said, no offense, but he doesn't seem like a good guy. And he was way across the room.
And they were like, oh, good sense on you.

Speaker 4 Oh, no. He's leading the opposition.
So he's the guy, I think, that was helping thwart Benedict. And he was on in the inside.
Okay. It's exactly the Trump story.

Speaker 4 Would you agree? Yeah, it felt like it felt almost like a game of thrones within the Vatican didn't it? That's like the best. And it was the weirdest, weirdest feeling.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And it's exactly what we saw in 2016. I had never seen that before, but it's exactly what we saw in 2016.
It's what we're now seeing in the EU, where the people with power are just taking people out.

Speaker 4 The pattern here is really familiar because we've seen it in Washington, we've seen it in Hollywood, we've seen it in the media.

Speaker 4 It's the replacement of the immovable with those who are more malleable.

Speaker 4 The strong replaced by the inclusive, the faithful with the fashionable. That's what happened.
And this deep state doesn't just run in governments. It runs in everything.
It runs in institutions.

Speaker 4 And when those institutions start to resist the world's direction, they're infiltrated, they're neutralized, and they're repurposed. And it is in

Speaker 4 everything.

Speaker 4 It happened at the Vatican. I saw it.

Speaker 4 And Pope Benedict was the warning shot that we all missed.

Speaker 4 He was the first Donald Trump, I believe. Now,

Speaker 4 what happens next?

Speaker 4 Are we going to get somebody, you know, as the church is starting to grow again, the Catholic Church is starting to grow, and it's growing with Generation Z who are saying, we want our traditions back.

Speaker 4 We want marriage. We want truth.
We want eternal truth as it's laid out in the gospels of Jesus Christ.

Speaker 4 As it's growing, will the church grow in that direction?

Speaker 4 Or has Francis put such a cabal in there? that you might get somebody who says that, but is do

Speaker 4 is it going to be, yeah, we just elected a new guy and he's doing exactly what the last guy did? Just the way it happens in our government and every other government on earth?

Speaker 4 We'll see. It begins today.
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I mean, that doesn't.

Speaker 4 We would never put up with this.

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Speaker 4 You're not going to hear that opinion anywhere, do you think, Stu?

Speaker 1 An interesting,

Speaker 1 considering it happened very, very recently. It wasn't exactly the way I thought you were going to come out, but that's all right.

Speaker 1 It's an

Speaker 1 interesting start to the program, as usual.

Speaker 4 I mean, you know,

Speaker 4 I don't wish anybody any harm, obviously.

Speaker 1 And, you know, he was the Pope,

Speaker 4 and I have respect for the Pope, but I have no respect for the policies that he held. Now, I'm not Catholic, so who am I to say?

Speaker 4 It's, you know, I might as well be talking about women, you know, as astronauts. I've never been to the moon, so

Speaker 4 what do I know?

Speaker 4 I'm not a Catholic, so I, you know, I don't mean to impose my, but it is my viewpoint and what I witnessed there.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 it's really fascinating. It's going to be fascinating to watch.

Speaker 4 You know, yesterday I posted on X something that was happening in,

Speaker 4 where was that?

Speaker 4 In

Speaker 4 Ethiopia.

Speaker 4 And I saw this thing that happened on Easter Eve in Ethiopia. And there had to be a million people out in front of this giant cathedral.

Speaker 4 And they were all holding candles and singing, and it was amazing, amazing what's going on in Africa and all over the world. People are waking up again, and it will be interesting to see what happens

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 who is selected by those in charge. And,

Speaker 4 you know, We've seen it before where I think there were like two popes. Wasn't there two different popes that died right before in between

Speaker 4 Pope John Paul II? Because there was Pope John Paul I and he lived for like 10 days. And I think there was another one that died right before that.

Speaker 4 They went through this and it was kind of like God was like, no,

Speaker 4 not him.

Speaker 4 And then,

Speaker 4 oh, okay, John Paul. So we'll see.

Speaker 1 Did you just swipe right on a pope? Is that what you were doing? I did.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 I mean, as God, I think God was like, swipe right.

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 people are fascinated by this whole thing, too, right?

Speaker 1 They had the movie that just came out, right? Which where they were, that was one of the best picture nominations.

Speaker 1 You know, people are, again, I didn't see it.

Speaker 1 I don't know. I'm not, you know, as you are, I'm not Catholic.
I don't, I'm not all that involved in

Speaker 1 the process other than just kind of watch from afar. But

Speaker 1 the wide range between Benedict and Francis is a really interesting thing that the Catholic Church is going to make a big decision on here real soon.

Speaker 1 And that's going to be a fascinating thing to watch because it's not just the future of the church, but it's so influential

Speaker 1 in our politics and globally. So, yeah, it's going to be an interesting next few weeks.

Speaker 4 Will the church turn back around, back towards tradition and truth and the Bible, or is it going to keep going world economic form?

Speaker 4 back.

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Speaker 4 Welcome to the Glenbeck program. We're glad you're here.
I want to take on something else that I don't know,

Speaker 4 maybe I should just keep my big fat mouth shut.

Speaker 4 But because I think this one's going to piss off everybody, but it's the truth. There was a story in the New York Times, the podcaster asking you to side with history's villains.

Speaker 4 It was in the New York Times. Let me read some of it.
Daryl Cooper is no scholar, but legions of fans, many on the right, can't seem to resist what he presents as hidden truths.

Speaker 4 All of a sudden, everyone was coming for Darrell Cooper.

Speaker 4 There were the newspaper columnists, the historians, the Jewish groups, repugnant, says the chairman of Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust Museum, in a statement.

Speaker 4 Even the Biden White House released a statement calling him a Holocaust denier who spreads Nazi propaganda. So it was for a time for Mr.

Speaker 4 Cooper, one of the most popular podcasters in the country, to do what he does best, hit record. In a special episode of his history program, Martyr Made, Mr.
Cooper addressed the controversy

Speaker 4 which had exploded out of September 2nd appearance on the Tucker Carlson Show, the podcast started by the former Fox News host. At first, Mr.

Speaker 4 Cooper, a gifted historic storyteller, but not a trained historian, defended the claims he had made on Mr. Carlson's show.

Speaker 4 One, that Winston Churchill was the chief villain of the war, ridiculous, not by implication, Adolf Hitler.

Speaker 4 The two,

Speaker 4 and two, that millions had died in Nazi-controlled Eastern Europe because Nazis had not adequately planned to feed them. Okay,

Speaker 4 not true.

Speaker 4 He then said, you know, the history goes on to say then kind of retracted some of that stuff. This emotional ventriloquism is part of Mr.
Cooper's approach and appeal.

Speaker 4 On TikTok, a fan praised him as one of the best historians of our time because he tries to go out of his way to understand the perspective of everyone involved in a situation.

Speaker 4 These critics have probably helped make Mr. Cooper bigger than ever.

Speaker 4 He has been the most subscribed to history newsletter on Substack, one spot ahead of the eminent economic historian Adam Toozes in the wake of the Rogan interview Martyr made, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 4 Okay, so they go on and on and on to talk about how this just can't stand. I mean, we've got to, there's got to be some sort of

Speaker 4 filter.

Speaker 4 And, you know, Joe Rogan just can't have on whoever he wants to have on. That's the problem.
Is it? New York Times? Is that the problem? Hmm. It's really interesting.

Speaker 4 Now, let me just look and

Speaker 4 let me just look in the past here and see if we've had this exact same problem with anybody else.

Speaker 4 Because the person that came to mind was not Daryl Cooper, but Nicole Hanna-Jones. Because I think those two are the same coin.
And the coin's counterfeit, but just opposite sides of the same coin.

Speaker 4 The Martyr Maid podcast spins a tale of grievance and distrust, and it's wrapped enough in enough fact to keep it plausible.

Speaker 4 But there are some facts in there. Okay.

Speaker 4 Jones, she did the 1619 project.

Speaker 4 She did the same thing in reverse, except I think she's actually worse. I mean,

Speaker 4 because I think she made up almost everything in that. She recasts American history as racist from the very inception of the country.
Neither one of them is telling the whole truth.

Speaker 4 Neither one of them. Neither one wants to, I think.
They're both in the business of narrative and not history. So am I, but I try to be fair.

Speaker 4 The real problem is not these two.

Speaker 4 Honestly, it's the New York Times.

Speaker 4 Because, in their Sunday styles write-up on Cooper, the Times poses as a concerned observer, wary of growing influence among the disaffected right. Why are we disaffected?

Speaker 4 Why is the right disaffected?

Speaker 4 We're disaffected because you have tried to take our country from us, everything that we believe, our history, our values, our traditions, and you've tried to denigrate them and destroy them every step of the way.

Speaker 4 And you've done it with one lie right after another.

Speaker 4 Okay?

Speaker 4 Why are they framing him, not with facts, but with suspicion? Not Not because he's dishonest or not dishonest, but because he's popular.

Speaker 4 They clutch their pearls because he has an audience, and only the New York Times can have that audience. But where was that concern when

Speaker 4 they gave an audience to Nicole Hannah Jones and gave her a Pulitzer for a project now so discredited by the very historians that are now talking about Cooper?

Speaker 4 Where was the caution when they declared that 1619, not 1776, was the true founding of the nation? They didn't question her authority. They didn't say, well, she's not a historian.
They printed it.

Speaker 4 In fact, they taught it and endorsed it. They platformed it in schools.

Speaker 4 That's different than anything that Joe Rogan is doing. They platformed it in schools.
So let's be clear, okay?

Speaker 4 I think both Cooper and Jones are wrong.

Speaker 4 They may have points worth considering, but I think that they get it fundamentally wrong in a few places.

Speaker 4 They are looking at facts to sell the story and not necessarily reveal the truth. Now, maybe I'm being too cynical, but that's the way I see it.
And I'm not condemning either one.

Speaker 4 I'm condemning all of those on the left or the right that are now doing the same thing that the New York Times did with

Speaker 4 Cooper, but didn't do with Hannah Nicole Jones.

Speaker 4 Only one of those two was lauded by the New York Times as legitimate and a necessary corrective, even though it was all a lie, made up.

Speaker 4 So that's what, when I'm reading that op-ed in the New York Times, I can't take the, oh my gosh, the hypocritical nature of it. I just, blood shoots out of my eyes.

Speaker 4 Because that's what the New York Times is actually saying. Don't you little people understand? We must decide what stories are acceptable, not you, not somebody like Joe Rogan.

Speaker 4 We will decide which distortions are virtuous and which ones are dangerous, not you. We get to choose the false prophets that get a column, which and which ones are called conspiracy theorists.

Speaker 4 We at the New York Times, we in the media.

Speaker 4 And that

Speaker 4 is the problem.

Speaker 4 this isn't about the authors okay first amendment gives them a right to say whatever they want you may not like it if you don't like it stop listening well but other people might listen yeah well hmm other people might listen and maybe we should pay more attention to our education in our schools maybe we should pay more attention so we don't become somebody that is uh a dummy themselves and are

Speaker 4 because this is the problem we don't have a press that exposes lies anymore. We have a press that curates the lies.

Speaker 4 I really think this is why I started collecting, you know, we have now the third largest collection of founding documents in the American Journey Experience, along with David Barton's wall builders.

Speaker 4 It is it's only behind the National Archives and the Library of Congress. Most people don't know it because, you know, we don't talk about it yet.

Speaker 4 Beginning in 26, we're going to be making a big deal out of it.

Speaker 4 We also have the largest collection of Pilgrim era artifacts and documents in the world. The largest.
So I can tell you what happened in Jamestown in 1619. I can tell you this.

Speaker 4 The ship that Hannah Nicole Jones talks about, there were no slaves on that ship. How do I know? We have the manifest.

Speaker 4 No slaves. Hmm.
That seems problematic, doesn't it? And the Mayflower did not launch a system of slavery. In fact, they fought against it.

Speaker 4 This is so crazy.

Speaker 4 What the pilgrims did against slavery was remarkable, remarkable. When a slave ship accidentally came into their port, it was slavery was against the law.
They called it man-stealing.

Speaker 4 It was against the law. And as soon as that slave came into port, you could smell a slave ship.
They knew exactly what it was. And they marched up and they arrested the captain of the ship.

Speaker 4 They put him in irons and put him in jail. And then these people who were already paying 50%

Speaker 4 of everything they made, these poor people, 50% of everything they made to a king that they despised, but they paid it because they wanted just to stay alive, they took up a collection.

Speaker 4 from each other, not outside, from each other.

Speaker 4 Got a new captain, refueled, restocked the ship, and sent those people, those slaves, back to Africa so they could be freed. That's who our pilgrims were.

Speaker 4 Don't believe me, you don't have to take my word for it. We have the evidence.

Speaker 4 Please. You know, the longest-running treaty with Native Americans happened with our pilgrims.
And you know who broke it? Not the white man. It was the Native Americans.
And you know why?

Speaker 4 Because after years and years of the pilgrims and the Native Americans getting along, Christianity was was starting to seep into their culture. And they needed to go to war with a tribe.

Speaker 4 And the war, that the way they used to fight it, the Native Americans, it was okay to enslave your enemy. In fact, you needed to.
You could torture them after you won just to make a point.

Speaker 4 And then you could enslave anybody you wanted. And Christianity said, no, you can't do either one of those things.

Speaker 4 And so the Native Americans that were part of this tribe that were friends and under this treaty with the pilgrims, they started telling their chief, you know, we can't do these things.

Speaker 4 And the chief got so pissed because he's like, we're fighting a war and we're fighting it the way we've always fought it that they broke the treaty. Did you know that? Nah, no, we were just horrible.

Speaker 4 We stole the land.

Speaker 4 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Did America live up to its ideals? No. Has anybody ever? Have you? Has the Pope? Has anybody really lived up to their ideals all the time? No.

Speaker 4 But you have ideals and that's what matters. By the way, on the other side, I also happen to own a few original Nazi documents from the actual perpetrators.

Speaker 4 I've got documents from the engineer that actually calculated how much Zyklon B it would take to murder a room full of Jews, okay?

Speaker 4 It wasn't because they didn't want to, they didn't have enough food.

Speaker 4 This was calculated. I have the final prescription signed by Dr.
Mengela for a thousand liters of luminol for the so-called children's hospital.

Speaker 4 That's how the Reich was killing the undesirables in the children's hospital. They didn't do it in a frenzy.
It wasn't in a riot.

Speaker 4 It wasn't out of desperation. It was silence in lab coats with bureaucrats and experts signing off and the press, like the New York Times, refusing to say a word about it.

Speaker 4 The scariest people are not the ones in the streets.

Speaker 4 They weren't. They were the ones with titles, with offices, with press credentials.
They were the ones with the doctorates.

Speaker 4 They were the people who decided what could be published, who could be punished, what could be known, what could be said.

Speaker 4 And that's the danger that we're staring down right now, not from fringe theorists on a podcast, not even from overzealous academics with a Pulitzer, but from the institutions that bless one distortion and condemn the other.

Speaker 4 Not based on truth, but based on usefulness. Is it useful to our side? I just want you to know,

Speaker 4 this is my stance on this and make this very, very clear.

Speaker 4 The First Amendment does not exist to protect comfortable speech. It doesn't exist to protect Cooper as opposed to Jones.
It exists to protect both of them.

Speaker 4 It protects uncomfortable points of view, things you do not like to hear, and disagreement. It protects people who are absolutely wrong, and even those who are lying.

Speaker 4 It protects the process so you can figure it out. There is no licensed priesthood in our country, you know, that are the priesthood of truth tellers, no official ministry of facts.

Speaker 4 That's where countries go wrong. The Times should be exposing both sides of these stories, just like I'm doing.
The distortions of the right and the left.

Speaker 4 But instead, they become exactly what they've warned us about. A newspaper that prints dogma and not dialogue.

Speaker 4 And the real problem here?

Speaker 4 No, the real solution here is you. Jefferson warned that a man who reads nothing

Speaker 4 but newspapers

Speaker 4 Sorry, a man who reads nothing is better informed than a man who only reads the newspaper. Okay, I would say the newspaper is today's social media.

Speaker 4 Man who reads nothing is more well-educated than a man who just only reads social media. But today we might say better to be ignorant than confidently

Speaker 4 misled by trusted media. They see themselves not as a watchdog, but as a shepherd and we are the sheep.

Speaker 4 So I'm not defending either one. I'm defending the idea that we the people, not the institutions, not the elites, not the New York Times, not Joe Rogan, you decide what's true.

Speaker 4 And that takes work and it takes curiosity. Maybe the other guy's wrong.
I don't know. Maybe I don't have the whole story either.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 Look it up because the minute you let somebody else decide what you're allowed to hear, you have already surrendered your freedom to think.

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Speaker 4 They want you silent, obedient, and blind.

Speaker 4 Well, shoot, here we are with open eyes and a bit of rebellious nature.

Speaker 4 Hold in line, my friends. Glenn Beck will be back in a minute.

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Speaker 4 I have a few things to say about what's happening with the return of the illegals. That is, this is an outrage.
We have got to stop. This is...

Speaker 4 Do you know? This was actually a point of view on MSNBC. One, that this is exactly what Hitler did, surprise, surprise.
And next,

Speaker 4 this is just Donald Trump lulling African Americans to sleep. You're next.
He's going to deport you.

Speaker 1 African Amer.

Speaker 4 Oh my God.

Speaker 4 Are we really this stupid that we're just going to allow this? And why the concentration on this? We'll talk about it next.

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Speaker 1 the Glenbeck Program.

Speaker 4 Hello, America. Welcome to the Glenbeck Program.
We're glad you're here. I'm in Washington, D.C.
I'm going to meet with the president on Wednesday.

Speaker 4 I would really like to hear from you on what would you like me to ask the president?

Speaker 4 What if you had one question to ask the president, what would it be?

Speaker 4 You can tweet that to me,

Speaker 4 and you could also try to call in.

Speaker 4 I don't know if we're going to have time to get to phone calls today, but I would tweet it at Glenbeck, and I'll ask the questions, hopefully that you want the answers to.

Speaker 4 I've got a lot myself, but that happens on Wednesday.

Speaker 4 I think I'm talking to the Secretary of Education tomorrow.

Speaker 4 I hope I'm going to be talking to the Secretary of Treasury as well.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 perhaps Cash Patel, trying to get in with Cash Patel.

Speaker 4 We'll see.

Speaker 4 And a few other things this week. So we'll get to that here in a second.

Speaker 4 I just want to talk to you about some actual numbers and just see if we can cut through the bull crap on all of the stuff that's going on with

Speaker 4 Donald Trump. He's Hitler yet again.
He's doing, you know, Chris Matthews said. What he's doing, he's just like Hitler.

Speaker 4 Here's what Hitler did to the Jews.

Speaker 4 Really? Is it? We'll get into this here in just a second. First, let me tell you about our sponsor.

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Speaker 4 All right.

Speaker 4 You know,

Speaker 4 I'm staying at a hotel right across the street from the White House. And

Speaker 4 my wife and I, we got here yesterday afternoon and we went out and we were on the balcony. And I'm looking down, and

Speaker 4 we're right at Lafayette Park.

Speaker 4 And Lafayette Park is where they tried to pull down all the statues, and they set the church on fire. Remember, BLM?

Speaker 4 And then, you know, of course, Donald Trump was, he was a Nazi because he tried to put that down.

Speaker 4 And it's somewhat cleaned up now.

Speaker 4 It's not as nice as it used to be, but it's somewhat cleaned up.

Speaker 4 And when I get there, everything, nobody's in the park.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 there's just some people that are

Speaker 4 fighting for,

Speaker 4 you know, peace in Gaza, you know, death to the Jew, peace in that kind of stuff. And then

Speaker 4 there were these people that are, you know, saying that

Speaker 4 we got to stop sending people to El Salvador because they're citizens too. No, they're really not citizens.
And nobody was in the park.

Speaker 4 And it was just sad. I thought,

Speaker 4 what's happened? You can't go into the park right across the street from the White House. It used to be such a beautiful place.

Speaker 4 And about an hour later, I come over and they're opening up the gates to the park and they're letting everybody in.

Speaker 4 And these two boys are playing baseball, just throwing baseball between themselves, underneath the trees in this park,

Speaker 4 right across the street from the White House. And it just was so iconic and so American.

Speaker 4 And it kind of just, I don't know, just kind of renewed my soul just a little bit that, yeah, America still does exist.

Speaker 4 It's fading quickly

Speaker 4 you know we're because we don't know what truth is it anymore

Speaker 4 we have no idea what truth is

Speaker 4 I mean do you remember the truth when when Arizona was fighting to make sure that they could deport illegals in their own state because it had become the number one kidnapping capital in the world?

Speaker 4 I think maybe it was number two in the world.

Speaker 4 And it was in Arizona. You're like, what?

Speaker 4 And so they were fighting. And of course, Obama administration, they fought and said, nope, nope, nope.

Speaker 4 You can't do anything on your own as a state. Now the state is fighting to make sure that they don't cooperate with ICE.

Speaker 4 They don't ship anybody out. And I'm thinking to myself, who, what Americans think that this is okay? What Americans...
What are you fighting for?

Speaker 4 Are you really that unplugged? You're just so

Speaker 4 Pavlovian that you just start to

Speaker 4 go vicious

Speaker 4 when you hear Donald Trump and his name?

Speaker 4 Chris Matthews was doing an interview on MSNBC

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 he was talking to Jim Acosta. Boy, there's a brain trust for you.

Speaker 4 And Chris Matthews said, you know, I'm in Washington, cab drivers talking about the OJ trial all day, that this is what it's like.

Speaker 4 What? They're talking about the cab drivers, they are all talking about the.

Speaker 4 If you're in Washington, D.C., there's not a single person that's driving a cab that knows who OJ Simpson is, okay? Not one.

Speaker 4 But, you know, they were all saying how that just dominated our life, and this is the way this is, you know, but I've got some questions, you know.

Speaker 4 Isn't this exactly what Hitler did? Now, I don't know how you get from Adolf Hitler or Adolf

Speaker 4 Hitler from O.J. Simpson.
Maybe,

Speaker 4 well, I mean, because they were killers, maybe? I'm not sure. But

Speaker 4 Chris Matthews says to Jim Acosta, you know, what did Hitler do? What did Hitler do in the Holocaust? He took people from Germany to other countries. Yeah, says Jim Acosta.
There was no German law.

Speaker 4 There was not even a pretense of German law. They just took them to Poland and Hungary, you know? Well,

Speaker 4 it gets them out of the country, just like our president's doing in El Salvador. Are you out of your mind? Then later on MSNBC,

Speaker 4 they have a new host. I mean, they just, I don't know where they get these people.

Speaker 4 Simone Sanders. She claimed on Saturday that the deportation of Salvadorian citizen suspected of MS-13 gang

Speaker 4 membership is just one step on the road toward Donald Trump deporting black Americans.

Speaker 4 Yeah, try to, go ahead. I'll give you time to do the math on that one.

Speaker 4 If they can do it to them, if they can snatch students off the streets without any pushback or recourse, they'll do it to any one of us.

Speaker 4 To be very clear, it's going to be the people of color and the vulnerable communities that are next in line. You mean like the Jews? I'm sorry, Simone.

Speaker 4 I mean, then you must be for the Jews, right? The most vulnerable among us? I mean, oh, you're not. Oh, okay.

Speaker 4 Again, you make my math, you know, you make the math part of my head hurt because I don't understand how you're getting there. But since we're on math, let's just do a little of the numbers, shall we?

Speaker 4 I just want to go over

Speaker 4 since Bill Clinton, and Bill Clinton, I mean, this is when it really started. I mean, you could say that it was Eisenhower, but it wasn't even close.
It wasn't even close.

Speaker 4 So let's go back to Bill Clinton.

Speaker 4 How many people did Bill Clinton deport?

Speaker 4 A million?

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 12.3 million. Okay.

Speaker 4 That includes 11.4 million returns and then 0.9 million, so a million formal removals. Okay.

Speaker 4 So the returns are mainly at the border,

Speaker 4 93% of the total, and then a million, he actually went into the city and he scooped them up and he sent them back home. All right.

Speaker 4 How many court injunctions were there in the eight years? In the eight years, how many court injunctions were there?

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 if you're being very generous, there were 12.

Speaker 4 Most people say zero. But if you want to be very, very generous, 12.
Okay, in eight years.

Speaker 4 Clinton had the 96 illegal immigration reform and Immigration Responsibility Act. You know, when everybody was like, hey, we should enforce our laws.
They're not citizens.

Speaker 4 It could be harmful for jobs. It could be harmful for our children and communities.
It's really bad for our schools because we have to have translators in every class now. All of that stuff.

Speaker 4 Then George Bush gets in. Now, this is under, this is right after 9-11.
So how many people did he deport?

Speaker 4 8.3 million returns. That means 8.3 at the border.
And 2 million kick down the door, haul them out, and send them home. Okay?

Speaker 4 2 million, twice the number of the kick down the door, but still less overall than Bill Clinton did.

Speaker 4 How many court injunctions for this one?

Speaker 4 Six.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 So that's from 2001

Speaker 4 until 2008. All right.

Speaker 4 How about Barack Obama? Barack Obama deported 5.3 to 5.5. I don't know why we don't know the exact number.
I guess we get sloppy with our math.

Speaker 4 I know we're doing Common Core math at this point. I don't know.
I can't give you an exact number, but I can tell you how I got there, even though the number is wrong. Oh, that's good.

Speaker 4 That was 3 million formal removals. So that's under Barack Obama, that's a million more formal removals than George Bush did.
Okay?

Speaker 4 2 million more than than Bill Clinton did formal removals okay Bill Clinton still did more than anybody else but he was turning them away from the border okay all right so you can see now

Speaker 4 what are what are Donald Trump's numbers you know I mean it's got to be bad right

Speaker 4 well in 2017 to 2021

Speaker 4 He he deported $1.5 to $2 million. Our math is even getting more sloppy now.
Including $1.2 to $1.5 million formal removals and fewer returns.

Speaker 4 We were deporting people. It was lower than Obama's, partly due to reduced illegal immigration and Title 42.

Speaker 4 But in fiscal years 2017 and 2020, about a million removals. Okay? Million removals.
Then in 2021,

Speaker 4 we go the opposite way. We just start bringing people in by the millions.
All right.

Speaker 4 So how many court injunctions for Donald Trump on his first term?

Speaker 4 30.

Speaker 4 30.

Speaker 4 Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute.
Wait a minute. What was it? Bill Clinton had, how many did he have in two terms?

Speaker 4 Court injunctions. He had 12.
Some say you're really being generous. If you give it 12, it should be zero.
Okay. George Bush, court injunctions, six.

Speaker 4 Barack Obama, this is because of DACA and everything else. He had 12.

Speaker 4 30 for Donald Trump. Now, that might tell you something.
Maybe we're looking how to weaponize the

Speaker 4 courts.

Speaker 4 But that was only in his first term. Okay.

Speaker 4 The second term, now remember, he just started this year.

Speaker 4 He's got another 30 injunctions that he is working against. And how many people has he deported? Because it's got to be huge, right? I mean, it's got to be enormous.
No, actually not. Actually, not.

Speaker 4 Approximately, again, we're getting even worse with our math. This is so appropriate for America.
We just get dumber and dumber. Like, I can't cow.
I don't know how to put numbers on paper.

Speaker 4 100,000 to 138,000. Okay.

Speaker 4 He deported 37,660 in his first month, estimates suggesting 2,500 to 3,000 daily

Speaker 4 removals thereafter, 60 days, 1,500 a day.

Speaker 4 That pace is now slower than Biden's final year, but very aggressive for a first term. Okay, he's got 30.

Speaker 4 He's doing less than Joe Biden did in his last term.

Speaker 4 And everybody's saying he's Hitler?

Speaker 4 Could I just remind you again about the numbers for Bill Clinton? See, this is why you have no leg to stand on. None.

Speaker 4 You cannot have an argument with me or somebody who knows the facts. You just can't.
Because these are the numbers. Numbers don't lie.

Speaker 4 How are you.

Speaker 4 How are you totally okay? I don't even remember. When I found out that Bill Clinton was the actual king of deportations, I was shocked.
I had no idea.

Speaker 4 I was sure that it was Eisenhower. He's not even in the boat.
He's not even close. Eisenhower.
He did Operation Wetback, you know.

Speaker 4 He did nothing compared to Bill Clinton. Nothing compared to Barack Obama.

Speaker 4 Come on.

Speaker 4 Now he was the worst. Well, he was also, oh my gosh, he was a Republican.
Isn't that weird?

Speaker 4 And then George Bush. He was a Republican, so of course he was a demon.

Speaker 4 And then when I went down to the border and I said, you know, they're keeping these people in cages, they were like, no, that's not true. That's Glenn Beck and a conspiracy.

Speaker 4 And then when Donald Trump gets in, they show the same cages that I showed. And they were like,

Speaker 4 Donald Trump built cages. And I'm like, no, they didn't.
I showed these. I tried to get this information to you, Chuck Todd.

Speaker 4 You wouldn't have it.

Speaker 4 Why? Why, why wouldn't you have it? Because this is all political. So it's really not worth your time.
It's worth your time to learn the truth. Not worth your time to sit here and worry about it.

Speaker 4 Because it is all the world is but a stage.

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Speaker 4 So, Stu, do you know the story here about what happened with the busload of illegals that were going to El Salvador and then in the middle of the night they were turned around because the Supreme Court

Speaker 4 issued a stay?

Speaker 1 I wouldn't say I know more than I've, you know, the basics I've seen reported that you kind of just outlined there. I mean, it is

Speaker 1 it's an amazing, uh, I mean, it's an amazing time right now because they're trying to fight this out in the courts.

Speaker 4 And, uh, you know, and nobody has the facts. Nobody has the facts.

Speaker 1 You know, even Samuel Alito coming out and

Speaker 4 did you let me read what Samuel? This is what Samuel Alito wrote.

Speaker 4 The court has just issued an unprecedented and legally questionable relief without giving the lower courts a chance to rule, without hearing from the opposing party, within eight hours of receiving the application, with dubious factual support for its order, and without providing any explanation for its order.

Speaker 4 That's incredible.

Speaker 4 You want to talk about a court system that is out of control. Can you imagine?

Speaker 4 Imagine if Donald Trump and the court was just doing that in the middle of the night, saying, nope, no more, and didn't even alert their whole court and didn't even ask for the other side, just ruled in the middle of the night.

Speaker 4 Can you imagine what they'd be saying?

Speaker 4 They couldn't be saying anything worse than they're saying now, so I guess it doesn't matter, but holy cow.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's supposed to there.

Speaker 1 One of the things they've been relatively consistent about, at least in their writings over the years, have been we're supposed to wait for the process to play out, right?

Speaker 1 That's supposed to be what happens here. You're supposed to wait until the lower courts rule, and then it goes up the chain.

Speaker 1 Unless there's like some emergency order that

Speaker 1 we've seen occasionally around specific events where they've kind of cut this corner, but it's pretty rare.

Speaker 1 And it usually is because of a specific deadline, like an election, you know, for example, that they have to rule on something quickly.

Speaker 1 It's a very odd approach. They seem to be trying to just send a message to Donald Trump constantly, which I don't know.

Speaker 4 That's all they're doing. I'm worried about the way that they're,

Speaker 4 I'm worried about the

Speaker 1 matchup that they're setting up and how it's going to turn out.

Speaker 4 This is one of the things I am going to ask the president about. I am going to ask him, where's Pam Bandi?

Speaker 4 Where is the Justice Department? Why are you not going after people that are breaking the law? You're trying to

Speaker 4 with the illegals that are breaking the law. But what about, I mean, did you see what they released on Fauci? We're going to get into that in a second.
Do you see what they released about COVID?

Speaker 4 That's amazing. Now, where is the punishment for that?

Speaker 4 Where is it? Like, I don't know if you heard about this judge in New Mexico that just resigned from the bench because he was harboring a guy in his house that was an

Speaker 4 MS-13 gang member. Okay.

Speaker 4 And was shown

Speaker 4 firing automatic weapons and everything. Nothing he could do showing him shooting them in New Mexico.
They found him in the judge's house.

Speaker 4 I don't know. There might be a problem.

Speaker 4 Might be a problem. And will that judge go to jail? Who knows? This is Glenn Beck.

Speaker 4 We all love our dogs like family, but we don't feed them like family. We pour the same dry shelf-stable kibble into a bowl every morning, trusting that whatever's in the bag is good enough.

Speaker 4 But it's barely food at all, honestly. It is.
It's heat processed, preserved for up to two years. It has to sit on a shelf without going to bed for two years.
Are you going to give that to your kids?

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Speaker 4 This morning there was a story. Stu, can you check this out for me? See what gold is at right now.

Speaker 4 Early this morning when I got up around 5 a.m. Eastern,

Speaker 4 gold was

Speaker 4 spiking again the highest place it's ever been gold I mean the dollar was starting to fall.

Speaker 4 Not good. It was today, I think it was

Speaker 4 3,30, something like that.

Speaker 1 Do you have the number still? Yeah, 3,435 currently.

Speaker 4 Holy cow.

Speaker 1 Up another 3%.

Speaker 4 3,500.

Speaker 4 Almost 3,500. That is, this is not.

Speaker 4 Good.

Speaker 4 This is not good.

Speaker 4 The gold going up is a sign of confidence.

Speaker 4 And the rest of the world, the central banks, are buying gold up.

Speaker 4 And, you know, again, what do rich people know that maybe you don't know?

Speaker 4 That things are shaky with the dollar and things are shaky with gold. So you might want to consider that.
I mean, I'm not a financial advisor. This is not a commercial.
But I'm just telling you.

Speaker 4 This is a big warning sign. Big, big, big, big, big warning sign.
We're

Speaker 4 $3,500, approaching $3,500 an ounce. It was, what was it? You said this just last week.
I had to look it up, Stu.

Speaker 4 It was at the beginning of the year that it was $2,500. It's almost gained $1,000.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Let's see. No, you're right on there.

Speaker 1 It was, yeah, 2024, we were still at around $2,000 an ounce, early 2024.

Speaker 2 Who?

Speaker 4 Unbelievable. Yeah.
Unbelievable. That's right.

Speaker 4 We're not even halfway through.

Speaker 1 Yeah, about five pretty flat years for gold between 2020 and 2024.

Speaker 1 And then it started going up in, you know, early to mid-2024 and has been kind of like a roller coaster straight. You're still just climbing.
It's up about 100%

Speaker 1 in the past five years. But in the

Speaker 1 past year, most of that gain has happened.

Speaker 1 And again, you've mentioned this for a long time. Obviously, we talked about gold being a good hedge kind of against insanity and a good piece of your portfolio.

Speaker 1 However, you kind of almost don't want it to be this high because it's just indicating such, such scary times.

Speaker 4 No, before I lost my gold in that horrible boating accident,

Speaker 4 it was terrible.

Speaker 4 You'd like, I mean, it's gold is an investment. You'd like it to go up.
I don't want it to go up. I don't want it to go up anymore.
I'd like it to come back back down.

Speaker 4 This is a

Speaker 4 very, very bad sign.

Speaker 4 All right. So the media over the weekend, they were like, oh, did you see what Donald Trump did with the COVID.com

Speaker 4 or dot gov website? And he put it on the whitehouse.gov website now, all the lies about COVID.

Speaker 4 You mean all the corrections on COVID?

Speaker 4 This is an amazing thing. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Stu, about what they published at whitehouse.gov.

Speaker 4 The origin, according to public health officials and the media, to discredit the lab leak theory, was prompted by Dr. Fauci to push the preferred narrative that COVID-19 originated naturally.

Speaker 4 Point one, the virus possesses a biological characteristic that is not found in nature. Number two, data shows that all COVID-19 cases come from a single introduction into humans.

Speaker 4 This runs contrary to previous pandemics where there were multiple spillover events.

Speaker 4 Three, Wuhan is home to China's foremost SARS research lab, which has a history of conducting gain of function research, gene altering, and organism supercharging in an inadequate biosafety level.

Speaker 4 Number four, Wuhan Institute of Virology, researchers were sick with COVID with symptoms in the fall of 2019, months before COVID-19 was discovered at the wet market.

Speaker 4 We talked about that, I mean, probably within a couple of months of COVID happening, we had that information. We're like, ah, let's look back.
Why were they redoing all of that

Speaker 4 institute? You know, they completely gutted all of the air ducts, everything else. They completely upgraded it around November.

Speaker 4 And then lo and behold, in December, we start to find out that, whoa, something in the wet market happened.

Speaker 4 By nearly all measures of science, if there was evidence of a natural origin, it would have already surfaced, but it hasn't. This is from the White House now.
And it goes through all of it.

Speaker 4 And then it goes through Fauci's pardon and his obstruction and EcoHealth's obstruction and Dr. David Moren's and

Speaker 4 the obstruction of your favorite person.

Speaker 4 I think you'll really like what they say about Andrew Cuomo on the website.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was probably. I think it's the best place on the entire internet for that reason.

Speaker 1 We found it. Cuomo's failure?

Speaker 4 It just says Andrew Cuomo failure on

Speaker 4 the film

Speaker 1 in love. And it's a great summary of his entire life, not just this particular issue.

Speaker 1 But yeah,

Speaker 1 I thought a lot of it, if you follow this stuff closely, was not new information, right? It was a good summary and a breakdown of the stuff that we have learned over the past few years on

Speaker 1 this topic.

Speaker 4 I think the key thing maybe you know what I still don't think that it is recognized as the official thing. I mean, this has been out now for a long time.

Speaker 4 You know, we started doing most of this stuff we had within, what, six or eight months of the actual outbreak. We knew by the summer.

Speaker 4 And we were broadcasting all of this, and we didn't have all of the documents, but we had everything that led up. to the document that said, hey, we got to change all this.

Speaker 4 We had the document before going, hey, I think you guys are wrong. Then a document that said,

Speaker 4 we should probably talk offline. And then the next document we had was, no, everything we were saying is the complete opposite now.

Speaker 4 We didn't have the middle document there. And that's been released now.
So we had all of this stuff, just not the smoking guns. All the smoking guns are there.

Speaker 4 And I still don't think, I mean, and it's partially because who's going to jail over this? Millions of people died. Millions.

Speaker 4 Is anybody being held responsible for this?

Speaker 1 That's a great question. It doesn't seem.
I hope that's a high priority of the administration. There's several things of this level.

Speaker 1 I would also throw something like Joe Biden was mentally incapable to be president of the United States and everyone was hiding it. I'd put that into the same category.

Speaker 4 But like,

Speaker 1 I think the key thing from this,

Speaker 1 which I don't think enough people know, is the cover-up. You know, I think

Speaker 4 it always is.

Speaker 1 You're right. We said a lot of these things in the months after COVID came out and a lot of it really early, frankly.

Speaker 1 But part of the problem as to why it didn't become, I think, the consensus at the time was all of these institutional mainstream sources disagreeing with it, right? And like, you know, no offense.

Speaker 4 Stu, we couldn't say anything about COVID and not get banned and demonetized.

Speaker 4 I mean, we, you know, all the shows that we did, unless you were a member of the Blaze, you didn't see them because we put them online and you didn't see them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and to be clear, the solution to that problem was to say it anyway and get banned and demonetized.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 4 You know, again,

Speaker 1 what else are you going to do? I don't know why else we would have this job if you're not going to go for that. But there was that situation where

Speaker 1 We sure we were saying it and sure people in this audience heard it and and yes

Speaker 1 people on the right were familiar with the skepticism and the pushback on this stuff. But because

Speaker 1 none of these mainstream media outlets really adopted any of those positions or took them seriously or even gave them a fair hearing, a lot of people just, you know, I mean, understandably, if you're on the left, you're looking at this stuff and you see, okay, well, Glenn Beck's saying it.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to believe it. The New York Times is saying it's a conspiracy theory.
I'm not surprised they just believed that.

Speaker 1 That cover-up where people right under Fauci are on record saying they want to delete the emails so that they can't,

Speaker 1 so that no one finds out about what they're talking about.

Speaker 1 That sort of stuff, while I think the lab league theory and some of those other pieces of skepticism that the conservative side had early on have been very much vindicated, the cover-up as to why it needed to be vindicated has not really had the attention it deserves yet.

Speaker 4 100% true. Now, why?

Speaker 4 Why?

Speaker 1 I mean, it's the same people. I will say, you know,

Speaker 1 some of these places have written about this now. Some of these places have talked about

Speaker 1 it, but it hasn't been a,

Speaker 1 you know, the, hey, did you know Donald Trump is Hitler sort of march? And you'd think it would be. I mean, as you point out, millions of people died here.

Speaker 1 You'd think that it would be something they would focus on and draw a lot of attention to and continue to kind of beat the drum until someone was held responsible.

Speaker 1 And they don't seem to have any interest in that whatsoever. They kind of like, it seems like now they're in that stage where they want to say,

Speaker 1 look, we have this op-ed.

Speaker 1 We've talked about it.

Speaker 4 Like, and

Speaker 1 most of them have run an op-ed by now, right?

Speaker 1 But it's not been this constant thing. It's not this deep dive, constantly sending reporter after reporter after reporter to find out what actually happened.

Speaker 1 That stuff doesn't seem to be of interest at all.

Speaker 4 If we make a mistake, we correct it because it drives us crazy that we made the mistake. And

Speaker 4 I don't want anybody to believe that I'm standing behind something that we found out was wrong and a lie. I mean, we might be wrong from time to time, but we've never knowingly lied.

Speaker 4 I think some of these groups, they knowingly lied.

Speaker 4 The New York Times, they were knowingly lying about

Speaker 4 Joe Biden. and his senility, knowingly lying.
They knew. People in the media knew.
They just didn't want to hurt, or I should say it this way, they just didn't want to help Donald Trump.

Speaker 4 So they thought that a senile old man with the buttons is much better than a Donald Trump. They thought not knowing who the president of the United States actually is.

Speaker 4 You know, they say they're defending the Constitution now because if we don't have a Constitution, if we don't have rule of law, we have no country. Where was your rule of law with Joe Biden?

Speaker 4 Who actually was running the White House? Who was running it? You don't want the rule of law. You want control.
That's what you want.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I would be horrified if I had been a part of any of that, horrified.

Speaker 4 But they're not. And, you know what? There's no, there's, there's no consequence.
They're not going to lose any advertisers. The New York Times hasn't lost any real money because of this.

Speaker 4 Their people just continue to watch.

Speaker 4 I mean, if we were this wrong about things, I would hope that we would have seen a lot of cancellations.

Speaker 4 I would hope that people, like, you know, I don't know if I can trust you anymore, Glenn, because we would have earned that, especially after a couple of years where I'm like, oh, by the way, all of that stuff we said was wrong.

Speaker 4 Hey, another news.

Speaker 4 And that's what they're doing.

Speaker 4 They just run one little story, like, yeah, everything we say was wrong.

Speaker 4 And then they go on it, but Donald Trump is Hitler.

Speaker 4 Why should I? That's the thing I just don't understand.

Speaker 4 How do people continue to believe the people who have been so wrong about stuff that is this important?

Speaker 4 They they lied to you they knowingly lied to you

Speaker 4 How

Speaker 4 you know

Speaker 4 Donald Trump appointed somebody to do Doge. Yeah, well, he wasn't elected Who was the president of the United States? Because the guy we elected, he wasn't the president.

Speaker 4 Why does it matter now that Doge, which the president has absolute right to do, he's not the president, he's not making these calls on his own. He's reporting to the president.

Speaker 4 Why is Doge such a problem? But, you know, Joe Biden crapping his pants and looking, you know, trying to find old jelly beans in the couch from, you know, Ronald Reagan days, that's totally fine.

Speaker 4 I mean, I don't know. I don't know how people live with themselves.
Yeah, wouldn't it? They do, strangely.

Speaker 1 At the very least, give you a sense of

Speaker 1 fallibility.

Speaker 1 Like, hey, you know, I can get sucked into something like this and be totally wrong. And I should really watch myself next time I decide I want to write story number 9345 that Trump is Hitler.

Speaker 1 Maybe question whether my certainty is warranted. And I think that's something they just never have that moment of self-reflection.

Speaker 4 None. None.
It's come out. Everything about the Russia gate came out now in court documents that Hillary Clinton was the one who approved all of that.

Speaker 4 And she knew it wasn't accurate, but she approved it. Why? Why? Why does anybody know about that? Why doesn't anybody care? Because nobody in the media actually cares.
Ends justify the means.

Speaker 4 They just hate Donald Trump so much. They'll do anything, anybody.
They will sleep with, they will sharpen the knives of anyone

Speaker 4 that says they'll put that in the back of Donald Trump. All right, back in just a second.
Buying or selling a home isn't just a transaction, it's a chapter. It's the moment you leave behind, you know,

Speaker 4 it's what you leave in the house.

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Speaker 4 What you're hearing are your thoughts.

Speaker 4 Be the mind and mouth of Glenn Beck.

Speaker 4 More

Speaker 4 next.

Speaker 4 We are, I'm thrilled to have

Speaker 4 the Time magazine's 100 Most Influential People in AI joining us here in just a little while.

Speaker 4 We're going to talk about AI and what's coming. And this is a guy who

Speaker 4 used to work

Speaker 4 for OpenAI and he left and he was like,

Speaker 4 I think they might be a little irresponsible here. So we're going to talk to him about what's coming, what's coming next, the good things and the bad things.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 he says this is a reckless race. Okay, what does that mean?

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 who should be running this? We're going to talk to him in just a second. If you missed any portion of the program, make sure you get the podcast wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 4 We start with the Pope and a perspective on what's happening in the Vatican that you will not hear anywhere else. Make sure you get today's podcast.

Speaker 4 This is Glenn Beck. Let me talk to you about Chase.
Most of us don't think about parasites. I don't want to even think.
I mean, I really don't want to even do this commercial.

Speaker 4 I don't want to think about those.

Speaker 4 No, thank you. You hike near a lake, you know.
Did you drink from a well?

Speaker 4 No, I'm not an animal, man.

Speaker 4 Poorly washed piece of produce can introduce something into your body that doesn't belong there. And when it happens, when a parasite takes hold, you need medicine quickly.

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Speaker 4 It's promo code Beck at jace, j-as e.com. Best time to prepare, you know, for any of your medical needs is right now before you need it.

Speaker 4 The fusion of entertainment and enlightenment.

Speaker 4 This

Speaker 4 is the Glen Beck Program.

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 hello, America. So I'm in Washington, D.C., and we've already done two hours.
And I mean, I could do more on things like this. Could we play cut to Jasmine Crockett? Here it is.

Speaker 8 But here's the reality.

Speaker 8 As far as I'm concerned, he's a lot less criminal than the person that's sitting in the White House. Because last time I checked, he doesn't have any criminal convictions.

Speaker 8 I don't even think he has any outstanding cases versus the guy that still had cases pending when he was sworn in on January 20th and also has 34 felony convictions.

Speaker 8 So listen, I don't want to hear anything from the Republican Party about how they're trying to keep us safe when their fearless leader is actually the biggest criminal thus far that we have seen because I haven't seen anybody with a rap sheet that looks like the president's.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 Jasmine Crockett for president.

Speaker 1 That's all I have to say.

Speaker 4 Wow, how delightful that is. I mean, I could go, I could go there, but really, do we have to? I mean, don't we? I mean, I think we all get it.

Speaker 4 You know, it's the day after Easter, and I don't know, I'd rather talk about bunnies for an hour. But

Speaker 4 I have something so much better than bunnies for an hour. I have one of the guys, he is, Time Magazine called him one of the 100 most influential people in AI.

Speaker 4 I mean,

Speaker 4 I hate to break it to him, but I was one of the most 100 most influential people in the world at one point. So it kind of takes the shine off of that whole thing.
But he deserved to be on that.

Speaker 4 He is the executive director of the AI Futures Project. He is a former open AI researcher, and he's got some warnings on some things.
And I thought, you know, after last week, when I saw the

Speaker 4 thing from Eric Schmidt, where he was like, you know, we really don't know what's coming.

Speaker 4 You know, and in a couple years, it's going to be smarter than all of us. And what does that mean? You know, I don't know.

Speaker 4 I thought we should just spend a couple of minutes on that.

Speaker 4 You know? So we're going to do that here in 60 seconds. Stand by first.

Speaker 4 for years without even realizing a lot of us have been funding causes we disagree with through companies that take our money and turn around and use it you know against us big tech big banks even big wireless they've gotten so comfortable they don't even hide it anymore and you know i appreciate that they don't just tell me who you are i mean i live next door to you you know i just want to know what you believe in and you know we can disagree and then i can decide to do business with you or not do business with you you know these uh places like verizon they they donate to places that are actively working to dismantle the values that you stand for.

Speaker 4 And then they send you a bill at the end of the month for that privilege. But there is a choice.

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Speaker 4 patriot

Speaker 4 So we have Daniel Cocatello, and he's a former OpenAI researcher. Daniel, have you been on the program before? I don't think you have, have you?

Speaker 4 No, I haven't. Yeah, well, welcome.
I'm glad you're here. Really appreciate it.
Thank you, sir.

Speaker 4 We wanted to have you on because I am a guy who I've been talking about AI forever.

Speaker 4 And it is both just thrilling and one of the scariest things I've ever seen at the same time. And it's kind of like not really sure which way it's going.

Speaker 4 How confident are you that what'd you say?

Speaker 5 It's going to go both ways.

Speaker 5 It's going to be very thrilling and also very scary.

Speaker 4 Yeah, okay, good, good, good. All right.
Well, thanks for starting my Monday off with that.

Speaker 4 So, can you tell me, first of all, let's start with some of the good things that you think are coming and are right around the corner that people just don't understand?

Speaker 4 Because I don't think anybody, the average person, has they hear this, they think it's, oh, it's like social media. It's going to be like the cell phone.

Speaker 4 It's going to change everything, and they don't know that yet.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 5 where to begin? I think

Speaker 5 so. Probably people are familiar with systems like ChatGPT now, which are large language models that you can go have an actual normal conversation with, unlike ordinary software programs.

Speaker 5 They're getting better at everything. In particular,

Speaker 5 right now and in the next few years, the companies are working on turning them into autonomous agents. So instead of simply responding to some message that you send them and then

Speaker 5 turning off, they would be continuously operating, roaming around, browsing the internet, working on their own projects on their own computers, checking in with you, sending you messages,

Speaker 5 like a human employee, basically.

Speaker 5 That's what the companies are working on now. And it's the stated intention of the CEOs of these companies to build eventually superintelligence.

Speaker 5 What is superintelligence? Super intelligence is fully autonomous AI systems that are better than humans at absolutely everything.

Speaker 4 So, on the surface,

Speaker 4 that sounds like a movie that we've all seen. And you kind of, you know, you say that and you're like, anybody that's working on these, have they seen the same movies I've seen? I mean, what the heck?

Speaker 4 Let's spring and let's just go to see Jurassic Park.

Speaker 4 You know, X-Machine.

Speaker 4 What do you think? I don't, I mean,

Speaker 4 is it just me or do people in the industry go, you know, this could be really bad?

Speaker 5 Yeah, it's a great question. And the answer is they totally have seen those movies and they totally think, yes, it could go really bad.

Speaker 5 In fact, that's part of the founding story of some of these companies. So

Speaker 4 what do you mean?

Speaker 4 What do you mean?

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 Shane Legg, who is, I guess, arguably the technical founder of DeepMind, which is now part of Google DeepMind, which is one of the big three companies building towards super intelligence.

Speaker 5 I believe in his PhD thesis, he discussed the possibility of superhuman AI systems and how if they were not correctly aligned to the right values, if they were not correctly instilled with the appropriate ethics, that they could kill everyone and become

Speaker 5 a superior competitor species to humans.

Speaker 5 It's not just him. Lots of the people at these companies, especially early on, basically had similar thoughts of, wow, this is going to be the biggest thing ever.

Speaker 5 If it goes well, it could be the best thing that ever happens. If it goes poorly, it could literally kill everyone or do something

Speaker 5 similarly catastrophic, like lead to a permanent dystopia.

Speaker 5 People react to that in different ways. So

Speaker 5 some people sort of stayed in academia. Some people

Speaker 5 stayed in whatever other jobs they had or founded nonprofits to do research about this sort of thing.

Speaker 5 Some people decided, well, if this is going to happen, then it's better if good people like me and my friends are in charge when it happens.

Speaker 5 And so that's basically the founding story of a lot of these companies. That's sort of part of why DeepMind was created, and that's part of why OpenAI was created.

Speaker 5 I highly recommend going and reading some of the emails that surfaced in court documents

Speaker 5 related to the lawsuits against OpenAI. Because in some of those emails, you see some of the founders of OpenAI talking to each other about why they founded OpenAI.

Speaker 5 And basically it was because they didn't trust DeepMind to handle this responsibly.

Speaker 4 And did they go on to come up with,

Speaker 4 you know, and that's why we've developed this and it's going to protect us from it. I mean, or did they just lose their way? What happened?

Speaker 5 I mean, it's an interesting sociological question.

Speaker 5 My take on it is that institutions

Speaker 5 tend to conform to their incentives over time.

Speaker 5 There's been a sort of evaporative cooling effect where the people who are most concerned about where all this is headed tend to not be the ones who get promoted and end up running the companies.

Speaker 5 And they tend to be the ones who, for example, quit, like me.

Speaker 4 Let's stop there for a second.

Speaker 4 Hang on, just stop there for a second. You were a governance researcher at OpenAI on scenario planning.
What does that mean?

Speaker 5 I was a researcher on the governance team. Scenario planning is just one of several things that I did.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 basically...

Speaker 5 I mean, I did a couple different things at OpenAI. One of the things that I did was try to game out what the future is going to look like.
So AI 2027 is a

Speaker 5 much bigger, more elaborate, more rigorous version of

Speaker 5 some smaller projects that I sort of did while I was at OpenAI, if that makes sense.

Speaker 5 I think back in 2022, I wrote my own

Speaker 5 curious gaming out what the next couple years were going to look like internal scenario, right?

Speaker 5 And then

Speaker 4 I can.

Speaker 5 I'll get some things right, get some things wrong.

Speaker 5 The basic trend is hard to miss, right? AS systems getting better and better, becoming more autonomous, et cetera.

Speaker 5 For how close I was overall, I actually did a similar scenario back in 2021 before I joined OpenAI.

Speaker 5 And so you can go read that and judge what I got right and what I got wrong. I would say that that's about par for the course for me when I tend to do these sorts of things.

Speaker 5 And I'm hoping that AI 2027 will also be

Speaker 5 about that level of right and wrong.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 you

Speaker 5 mentioned the thing, the thing, the thing I wrote in 2021 is called What 2026 Looks Like, in case you want to look it up.

Speaker 4 Okay, well, I will look it up.

Speaker 4 You walked away from millions in equity in Open AI.

Speaker 4 What made you walk away? What were they doing that made you go, I don't think it's worth the money?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 5 back to the bigger picture, I think. Remember, these companies are trying to build superintelligence.
It's going to be better than humans,

Speaker 5 better than the best humans at everything, while also being faster and cheaper, and you can just make many, many copies of them.

Speaker 5 The CEO of Anthropic, Dario Amedai, he uses this term, the country of geniuses on a data center, to try to visualize

Speaker 5 what it would look like, because quantitatively, we're talking millions of copies, each one of which is

Speaker 5 smarter than the smartest geniuses, while also being more charismatic than the most charismatic

Speaker 5 celebrities and politicians and

Speaker 5 everything, right? So that's what they're building towards. And that raises a bunch of important questions, like, is that even a good idea for us to build, for example? And

Speaker 5 how are we going to make that safe? And also, who gets to control the army of geniuses in the data centers?

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 5 what orders are they going to be given? And who gets to decide, right? And like, these are some extremely important questions, right?

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 there's a huge, actually, that's not even another question. There's a long list of other very important questions, too.
I was just scratching the surface.

Speaker 5 And what I was hoping would happen at OpenAI and at these other companies is that

Speaker 5 as

Speaker 5 the creation of these AI systems gets closer and closer, you know, it starts out being far in the future,

Speaker 5 but as time goes on and progress is made, it starts to feel like something that could happen in the next few years, right?

Speaker 4 Yes, right.

Speaker 5 As we get closer and closer,

Speaker 5 there needs to be a lot more waking up and paying attention and asking these hard questions and a lot more effort exerted to prepare to deal with these issues. So, for example,

Speaker 5 opening I created the Super Alignment team, which was a

Speaker 5 a team of technical researchers and engineers specifically focused on the question of how do we make sure that we can put any values into these AI systems.

Speaker 5 How do we make sure that we can control them at all,

Speaker 5 even when they're smarter than us? So they started that team and

Speaker 5 they

Speaker 5 said that they were going to give 20% of their compute to

Speaker 5 working on this problem, basically.

Speaker 4 How much percentage went?

Speaker 5 Well, I don't know, and I can't say, but I think it's much less than 20%.

Speaker 4 That was a big step up, right?

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah. So 20% was huge at the time because it was way more than

Speaker 5 any company was devoting to

Speaker 5 this technical question at the time. So at the time, it was a sort of leap forward.
It didn't pan out. As far as I know, they're still not anywhere near 20%.

Speaker 5 And that's just an example of the sort of thing that made me quit, where I'm like, we are just not ready, and we're not even taking the steps to get ready. And so

Speaker 5 we're going to build it anyway, even though we don't understand it, don't know how to control it. And, you know, it's going to be a disaster.
That's basically what caused me to leave.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 hang on just a second.

Speaker 4 Give me a minute. I'm going to come back and I want to ask you, you have an opinion on who should run this because I don't like OpenAI.
I mean, I like...

Speaker 4 I like X better than anybody only because Elon Musk is just open to free speech on everything, but I don't even trust him. I don't trust any of these people.

Speaker 4 And I certainly don't trust the government. So who's going to end up with all of this compute? And do we get the compute and enough to be able to stop it or enough to be able to be dangerous?

Speaker 4 I mean, oh, it just makes your head hurt.

Speaker 4 We'll go into that when we come back. Hang on just a second.
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Speaker 4 Daniel Cocatello, he is a former Open AI researcher, AI Futures Project Executive Director, and talking about the reckless race, to use his words, to build AGI.

Speaker 4 You can find his work at AI-2027.com. So, Daniel, who is going to end up with control of this thing?

Speaker 4 Great question.

Speaker 5 What do I want to say here?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 probably

Speaker 5 no one,

Speaker 5 and if not no one, probably some CEO or president would be my guess.

Speaker 4 Oh, that's

Speaker 5 something why I think this, and in general, or like in general, if you want to understand

Speaker 5 my views, the views of my team at the AI Futures Project, and sort of how it all fits together and why we came to these conclusions, you can go read our website, which has all of this stuff on it, which is basically our best guess attempt at predicting the future.

Speaker 5 Obviously, you know, the future is very difficult to predict. We're probably going to get a bunch of things wrong, but this was our best guess.

Speaker 4 And that's ai-2027.com.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 So, yeah, as you were saying, it seems like we're going to, if one of these companies or several of these companies succeed in getting to this army of geniuses on the data center, the super intelligent AIs, there's a question of who controls them.

Speaker 5 There's a technical question of can we, does humanity even have the tools it needs to control super intelligent AIs? So does anyone control them?

Speaker 4 And I mean, it seems to me like an unsolved question.

Speaker 4 I think anybody who really understands this, it's like, you know, we can build gates, but it's like a baby gate. I mean, you know, imagine a baby trying to outsmart the parent.

Speaker 4 You're not going to be able to do it. It'll just step over that gate.
And I don't understand why a super intelligence wouldn't just go, oh, that's cute, not doing that. You know what I mean? Totally.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 5 getting a little bit into the literature here, so there's a division of strategies into AI control techniques and AI alignment techniques. So the control techniques are designed to

Speaker 5 allow you to control the super intelligent AI or the

Speaker 5 AGI or whatever it is that you're trying to control,

Speaker 5 despite the fact that it might be at odds with you and it might have different goals than you have, different opinions about

Speaker 5 how the future should be, right? So that's a sort of adversarial technique where you, for example,

Speaker 5 restrict its access to stuff and you monitor it closely and

Speaker 5 you use other copies of the AI as watchers to play them off against each other. There's all these sort of control techniques that are designed to work even if you can't trust the AIs.

Speaker 5 And then there's alignment techniques, which are designed to make it the case that you don't need the control techniques because the AIs are virtuous and loyal and obedient and trustworthy,

Speaker 4 et cetera.

Speaker 5 And so alignment techniques are trying to sort of instill instill the specified values deeply into the AIs in robust ways so that you never need the control techniques because they would never, you know, so there's alignment techniques and control techniques.

Speaker 5 Both are important fields of research. There's maybe a couple hundred people working on these fields right now.

Speaker 4 Hold on because both of them sound like they're not going to, they're not going to work, but we'll come back with more in a minute. Lynn Beck.

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Speaker 4 I was having a conversation with Chad GPT over the weekend about $5,000 gold.

Speaker 4 And I said, you know, what does the world look like at $5,000 gold? Because I think I know it wasn't pretty by any stretch of the imagination. And

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Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 everybody in the office now is looking at AI-2027.com. And let me just say, it's not going to improve your mood much.

Speaker 4 Let me just give you this. At the end of 2025, let me give you just this.

Speaker 4 Do the fully trained models have some kind of robust commitments to always being honest, or will this fall apart in some future situation because it's learned honesty as an instrumental goal instead of a terminal goal, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 4 Could it be lying to itself sometimes as humans do?

Speaker 4 Researchers try to identify cases where the models seem to deviate from the spec. Agent 1 is often sycophantic.
It tells researchers what they want to hear instead of trying to tell them the truth.

Speaker 4 In a few rig demos, I don't know what that means. We're going to have to ask him in a second.

Speaker 4 It even lies in more serious ways, like hiding evidence that it failed on a task in order to get better ratings.

Speaker 4 However, in real deployment settings, there are no longer any incidents so extreme as in the 2023-24 Gemini telling the user to die and

Speaker 4 Sydney being Bing Sydney. I don't know what that means, but

Speaker 4 the guy who does know what that means is with us. Daniel,

Speaker 4 this is your website.

Speaker 4 What does that last sentence or two mean? That this is kind of under control now?

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 5 let's just say here. So if you Google Bing Sydney, you might find this New York Times article by a journalist who chatted with

Speaker 5 basically a version of ChatGPT and

Speaker 5 tried to convince him to leave his wife and stuff like that, right?

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 5 it was just pretty unhinged and

Speaker 5 just in general with a lot of users

Speaker 5 was behaving in some pretty erratic crazy and scary ways

Speaker 4 yes

Speaker 5 so what we're saying in our AI 2027 projection is that the companies sort of like hammer away at these bad behaviors and at least make them seemingly go away or like make make it less obviously bad

Speaker 5 over the next year or two. I should mention, by the way, that

Speaker 5 it's not just back 2023, 2024. To my mild surprise, the AIs are still

Speaker 5 lying quite often.

Speaker 5 There was just something I saw from this other organization called Transloose that does interpretability research and red teaming, where,

Speaker 5 yeah,

Speaker 5 it seems like

Speaker 5 even today's chatbot models will sometimes just pretend that they answered your question or completed your request, even though they didn't.

Speaker 5 And then if you ask them about it, they'll double down on it and try to sort of gaslight you.

Speaker 4 So I've been using...

Speaker 4 Go ahead.

Speaker 5 I was just going to say, this is a huge, glaring problem right now is that whatever honesty training the companies are doing is not working.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 we are projecting that

Speaker 5 because there's such a

Speaker 5 PR risk and such an obvious market incentive, the companies will like hammer away at it and figure out ways to at least make the obvious failures, the obvious dishonesties and lies and so forth go away

Speaker 5 by

Speaker 5 the time it's 2027. But then that leaves the remaining question of like, well, has it actually become actually truly deeply honest? Or have you just sort of like trained it to be better at

Speaker 5 not lying in ways that are obvious and get caught?

Speaker 4 So Daniel, let me ask you, because, and please feel free to just say, okay, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. But

Speaker 4 the way I look at what's happening is,

Speaker 4 you know, if you think of a giant tank underground, all of that compute is down there.

Speaker 4 And we're just up above, you know, with a spigot and we're just opening it just a little bit at a time and say, no, no, not a lot of that, but it's still down in the tank doing those things.

Speaker 4 Is there any kind of does that make sense to you? Is that the way you could understand and

Speaker 4 help me look at it that way or differently?

Speaker 5 Well, the way that I would recommend thinking about it is modern AI systems are neural nets. They are not traditional software programs.

Speaker 5 So if you were to sort of open them up and look inside them, it wouldn't look like a bunch of lines of code that were written by humans

Speaker 5 where

Speaker 5 the program sort of like

Speaker 5 follows those lines of code and strictly executes on the instructions written down in those lines of code.

Speaker 5 Instead, they're sort of like a giant artificial brain with lots of connections or neurons, right?

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 rather than being designed by humans, they are trained. So

Speaker 5 they're put in some sort of training environment and the system sort of automatically learns to score highly in that training environment.

Speaker 5 So it's more like training a dog, you might say, than

Speaker 5 or training a child

Speaker 5 than building something.

Speaker 5 And so that leaves to, this is maybe getting back to what you're saying.

Speaker 5 It means that we don't have a way to actually check whether it's really learned the values that we want it to learn, or whether it's just, for example, literally lying to us and pretending to have those values.

Speaker 5 Or a third alternative, it has sort of learned the values, but not quite in the way that we wanted. And we're only going to find out later.

Speaker 5 There's all these different possibilities. And we don't actually have the way to just open up the system and check.

Speaker 4 There are people working on building such a way.

Speaker 5 So there's something called interpretability research, which is an exciting new field of technical research that's aimed at fixing this issue. But it's.

Speaker 4 Is this what Goodfire is?

Speaker 5 Goodfire?

Speaker 4 Goodfire? The startup.

Speaker 4 I think it came out last year, and it's, I don't know, they put a million dollars into it, and it's to help AI developers understand the inner workings of what's happening inside.

Speaker 4 I don't know if you've heard of it.

Speaker 5 Sounds like it. I haven't heard of it.
But yeah, there's a couple different startups. So like Transloose was the group that I mentioned previously that was showing the recent report of lying in AIs.

Speaker 5 Yeah, they're an example of this sort of startup that is working on interpretability research.

Speaker 5 So it's not like the situation is absolutely hopeless. If there's enough progress made in interpretability research, then it'll be a whole different ballgame, and we'll be able to actually

Speaker 5 determine what goals and values a given AI system has and predict how it would behave in future scenarios.

Speaker 5 But we're not there yet. This research is sort of very, this field is very young and not ready for prime time.

Speaker 4 What happens is underinvested in?

Speaker 4 What happens is, from my understanding,

Speaker 4 that the government

Speaker 4 a couple of years ago said to Silicon Valley, don't worry about developing any of this stuff. We're going to own it.
We're going to control it, which scares the life out of me.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 what happens if we don't get it and China gets it first? I mean, do you have any idea how real the race is? Are we way ahead, kind of ahead, behind? Where is this?

Speaker 5 Great question. So

Speaker 5 first of all,

Speaker 5 I think that what happens whether we get there first or China gets there first is probably

Speaker 5 the same either way because we probably just lose control of it. And if they get there first, they probably just lose control of it.

Speaker 5 However, however, however, I might be wrong. We might be wrong.

Speaker 5 It's possible that enough progress will be made on the technical alignment and control problems that whoever wins the race will actually stay in control of their super intelligent army. And

Speaker 5 then we get into sort of concentration of power issues, right? So then it matters quite a lot who wins and

Speaker 5 who they are and what they do with their army, right?

Speaker 5 And obviously, we would rather it be us than China

Speaker 5 for many reasons, which I probably don't need to elaborate on.

Speaker 5 There's also the question of like, well, who among us exactly? Like, is it going to be a CEO?

Speaker 4 Which CEO? Oh, I know.

Speaker 5 Or is it going to be, you know, some other, or is it the president? You know, I think ideally, we should be trying to avoid a situation where any one man or any small group of men has

Speaker 5 that level of power.

Speaker 5 If there is going to be an army of superintelligences, it should be, you know, like the United States Army, loyal to the Constitution, loyal to the American people, rather than loyal to, you know, for example, the president or the CEO of the company that trained them.

Speaker 4 Yeah, but do you know anybody that thinks like that?

Speaker 4 I mean, I'd be okay with that if it understood the, you know, the traditional values and principles that make us good people and, you know, just war theory, all that kind of stuff,

Speaker 4 and trained on the Constitution, I'd be okay with that. I don't believe that it ever would be tight, but I mean, is anybody doing that? Is anybody working in that direction?

Speaker 5 I'm not not sure what you mean. Can you say more?

Speaker 4 Is somebody working towards

Speaker 4 a constitutionally centered Bill of Rights?

Speaker 4 I'm going to first do no harm to humans.

Speaker 4 Is anybody doing that?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so sort of.

Speaker 5 So Anthropic, which is one of these big three companies,

Speaker 5 maybe I shouldn't say big three. One of the major companies that's explicitly trying to build super intelligence soon and thinks they might succeed.

Speaker 5 They have their constitution, which they train the AIs on. And I think you can go read it.
And

Speaker 5 it's

Speaker 5 a written document that describes the goals and principles that the AIs are supposed to have.

Speaker 5 Of course, we haven't made that much progress on the technical lemma problem, so the AIs don't actually have those goals and principles, or at least not fully.

Speaker 5 But at least this is like a written document describing

Speaker 5 the intended goals and principles. And similarly, OpenAI has something called the Model Spec.
You can go Google this. They have it up on the website.

Speaker 5 That is their version of this that describes the goals and principles that their AIs are supposed to follow, or at least their publicly available AIs.

Speaker 5 They don't make any claims about whether this covers their internal AIs.

Speaker 5 Oh, geez.

Speaker 5 So, yeah, so you can go read those documents and you can get a sense of what goals and principles these companies are trying to train into their models.

Speaker 5 their AIs, that is.

Speaker 5 There's still the question of like, well, who gets to write those documents and who gets to say what those goals and principles are.

Speaker 5 And in fact, there's even the question of who gets to know what those goals and principles are, because currently the company is under no obligation to

Speaker 5 actually tell the public about what goals and principles and values and agendas, et cetera, they're putting into their AI systems.

Speaker 5 And in fact, there have been a few scandals

Speaker 5 relating to that, where a company basically gave their AIs a hidden agenda and instructed the AIs to not tell the users about it. And then this

Speaker 5 blew up. So there's definitely an unfortunate point that's been set.

Speaker 5 I think what I'd like to be in a world,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 AI 2027 is a predictive exercise. It's not a normative exercise.
So

Speaker 5 it is just our sort of modal prediction of what we think the future looks like, at least at the time that we wrote it. Obviously, our views are constantly changing as we update based on new evidence.

Speaker 5 But

Speaker 5 it wasn't an attempt to recommend what people should do.

Speaker 5 But if you do want to know what I recommend people should do, one of the things that I recommend is transparency.

Speaker 5 I think that there should be

Speaker 5 firm rules that the companies are required to follow that basically say you have to tell the public what goals, principles, et cetera, you are trying to train into your AIs.

Speaker 4 You mean like an open AI?

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 5 I mean,

Speaker 5 and again, none of this matters if you haven't solved the technical problem of figuring out better training methods that actually results in the AIs having the goals and principles that you want.

Speaker 5 But if you do solve that problem and you do manage to get them to actually have those goals and principles, it becomes the most important question in the world of what are those goals and principles and who gets to decide.

Speaker 4 Daniel, I'd love to have you back for a podcast. We can spend a time without any commercials or anything else to just talk about this and really dive deep into it.
Can I ask you?

Speaker 4 I've only got about 45 seconds, so it has to be kind of a short answer, but

Speaker 4 I've taken the approach of I want to be in AI and using AI, and I have my own kind of bright lines of don't go past this,

Speaker 4 because I think it's a tremendous tool at this point.

Speaker 4 Do you recommend that, or do you say stay away from it entirely?

Speaker 5 Oh, I recommend using it. I think

Speaker 5 the best way to

Speaker 5 individual consumer decisions aren't going to change the outcome.

Speaker 5 It's like using plastic straws versus paper straws or whatever.

Speaker 5 On an individual level, you should just be learning about what's going on, learning about this technology, using it as much as you can.

Speaker 4 not get sucked into it

Speaker 5 and then yeah as a political matter like we we need to have a sort of political conversation about are we actually going to do this people and like if we're going to do this how are we going to do this uh in a way that is safe and in a way that's you know actually democratic instead of yeah uh the sort of mad free-for-all between ceos and politicians

Speaker 4 Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
I hope to have you on again. You're fascinating.
What you're doing is so important, Daniel.

Speaker 4 Daniel Cocatello, Cocatello, he is a former OpenAI researcher, AI's Future Project. You can find his work and please read it at AI-2027.com.
AI-2027.com. Daniel, thank you so much.

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