Glenn Beck Reacts to Passing of Pope Francis | Guest: Daniel Kokotajlo | 4/21/25

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Why am I here?

I'll tell you about that coming up.

Also, we want to talk.

I really, I have a few things to say about all of this back and forth on Donald Trump being, again, as dangerous as Hitler because he's sending people out. He's liquidating people.
He's what? He is going to do, every time he takes an illegal immigrant out, he is closer to taking out an African American, a citizen. Are you even listening to yourself? I'm going to give you the real facts that you can share with your friends coming up later on in the program.
I also want to talk about this nonsense back and forth that platforms, one way or another, should not voice opinions. Now, I guess our side is saying that we shouldn't allow some people to be heard.
Excuse me? No, I think everybody has this upside down and inside out. I'll explain that coming up.
Also, the Pope died while you were asleep. We'll have the latest on that and what it all means in 60 seconds.
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So yesterday for Easter, by the way, happy Easter, Stu. Happy Easter.
Go ahead. A day after Easter.
Yes. 364 days till the next one.
Thank you very much. Wow, how do you do that? Are you a mathematician? No, that's right.
J.D. Vance was with the Pope on Easter, and then the Pope dies.
That's all I'm going to say. I'm just going to leave it there.
I'm just going to, you draw your own conclusions, America. No, he had a good conversation, apparently, with the Pope, and the Pope died.
He was very, very sick in the hospital. He had pneumonia.
So we're back to the voting for a new Pope. Now, if I may, let me just tell you a story that I don't think most in the media even understand.
And if they do, they certainly won't touch it. But I was there back in 2013, I think.
Rob, what did we decide? It was 12 or 13, something like that. I was at the Vatican.
I was supposed to meet with the Pope. I met instead with a bunch of the high advisors for the Pope, and it was Pope Benedict at the time.
And I just want to talk to you about what I learned there and what we need to understand on this last Pope, because there was a quiet coup inside of the walls of the Vatican.

The first public victim of the deep state was not a president of the United States.

It was the pope.

It wasn't a priest.

It wasn't a whistleblower.

It was Pope Benedict.

Benedict wasn't just a conservative, although he was a staunch conservative. He was absolutely immovable.
He was elected in 2005. He stood for everything the modern world wanted the church to abandon.
He was moral. He had moral clarity.
He was a traditionalist and a spiritual authority. And my first realization that Pope Francis was going to be none of these things is when the media was talking, you know, they kept doing the white smoke and the black smoke, and they finally had, I don't remember what it is, the white or the black smoke, and it came out, and they knew they had a pope, and so they were waiting, and they were speculating.
Everybody on CNN and ABC, they were all speculating. Who could it possibly be? And they started to speculate.
And they would say, it's probably this cardinal. Oh, he's a real hardliner.
He's going to be really bad, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then they finally came up to this pope.
I don't remember what his real name is. But they mentioned him.
And they said, well, we don't know much about him. And within 10 minutes, everybody on every network started talking about how great he was going to be.
He was practically Jesus. And then when he was named Francis, oh, see, he is Jesus or St.
Francis, take your pick. And I remember looking at you, Stu, and saying, oh boy, we're in trouble.
They like him. This guy's going to be a nightmare.
So you had Benedict who would not compromise on life, no surrender on marriage, no applause for the modern world, and the globalists hated him.

The media called him rigid, progressives called him dangerous,

and the machine went to work behind closed doors,

because that machine is in every government,

and make no mistake, the Vatican is a government.

Scandal after scandal, corruption, abuse, all real problems, yes,

but they were used to discredit this pope.

I hope. Scandal after scandal, corruption, abuse, all real problems, yes, but they were used to discredit this pope and to stabilize his papacy.
And he refused to ban. And then suddenly in 2013, he resigns.
Now, I remember when this happened, gang. Let's put this into what we now know, okay? We now know who replaced him.
We now have seen the deep state in governments all across the world, okay? We have seen people being voted for, and the deep state didn't like him, and so they say, nope, not him. We've seen them throw people into jail, okay? So by 2013, he resigns and he's the first Pope in 600 years to resign.
And it's because he was too frail. He was too frail.
He was too tired. Biden wasn't, but Benedict was.
Okay. And yet he lived for nearly 10 years.
He lived, he wrote, he was speaking, he was warning. He stayed in the Vatican inside the walls.
He stayed in the Vatican. He wore white, white.
He signed his name, Pope Emeritus. That's not retirement.
That's him not really resigning. That's resistance.
That's what that was. And into that void came Pope Francis.
Okay. Immediately, everything about the church changed.
There was global applause. Oh my gosh.
Climate change sermons. Remember those, they were great doctrinal ambiguity to where the point where Catholics were like, wait a minute,

what is he saying here? Suddenly the church is less about salvation, more about sustainability and collective salvation, less moral compass, more moral relativism, and it seemed as though

the fix was in. Now, even members of some press overseas were saying uh this was a coup apparently benedict left a box it's called a white box full of scandal files and it was not a gift to pope francis it was a warning he knew he saw it coming so it wasn't a resignation it was a warning.
He knew, he saw it coming. So it wasn't a resignation, it was a removal from office, a soft coup by the progressive faction inside the church who was eager to align Rome with Davos.
And make no mistake, Davos was there, the UN was there. You know, all the global priorities of the UN and Davos were there that have nothing to do with God.
But now the church was aligned with all of it. I remember going, as I said, we were supposed to meet with the Pope, and I went and I met with several cardinals, I think the good cardinals, and I saw stuff that I had never seen before.
It was amazing. I saw the church as political and as spiritual at the same time.
I'm a former Catholic, so I respect the Catholic church. I also, you know, I'm no dummy.
It is a political organization. I think most churches can, you know, go that direction.
But especially one that's, you know, what, 2000 years old, 1900 years old. I think it could probably go awry from time to time and go political because that's what it that's what it was for a very long time.
And I remember seeing the guy who I think was in charge is Jason out there. See if Jason can come in for a second.
There was a guy that Jason was with me. Can you, Rob, can you open up one of those mics? Do you know, um, Jason, remember when we were at the Vatican, you were in the room.
Remember that big map room? It was like we were in the Godfather. Yeah.
Okay. I don't remember what that place was, but it was, you know, like near the Vatican, right around the Vatican.
And it was a place where they went and they held, you know, uh, dignitaries and held functions there. And it was amazing.
It was like a three-story room that we were in, and they were the biggest maps of the world I've ever seen. And all of the, I mean, it was incredible, and it had to be 400 years old.
Would you agree with that? Oh, yeah. Okay, so it's just steeped in, quite honestly, Dan Brown kind of- Totally Dan Brown.
Right? Totally that. And I had just gotten out of the archives the night, the day before.
And I don't even know how I got this invitation, but I was, I was given an invitation and even the guy who consulted the Pope, uh, for doctrinal issues when we were, I don't know, a quarter of the way into the archives, he was with me and I asked him a question and he said don't ask me ask him i've never been allowed in here and uh and the next day when we were getting a tour from the head of the vatican museum he said you'll never guess where they were yesterday and said you know they were in the the vatican archives and she he's she stopped she was head of the museum. She stopped and she looked at me and she was like, tell me about it.
What was that like? So like, I don't know how we got in there, but we were asked to go in. So we're experiencing all of this stuff.
And that night we were with, I don't even remember who they were, but they were the most Christ-like, you know, cardinals and preachers or whatever they were that I had been with the whole time. They were so kind.
You could just feel the goodness coming off of, they were real servants of God. And we were all standing around talking and you could tell everybody's guard in that group, everybody's guard was up and all of a sudden.
And I'm not kidding you. The room dropped 10 degrees and I happen to be facing looking at the door way across this huge room.
And here comes this guy. I don't know if he was a cardinal.
He was wasn't he in charge of all of the the pope's schedule or something like that yeah okay so he was he was the main guy that you know you had to get by if you were going to get to the pope and the room dropped it became cold and i said holy cow who is that guy and the whole the whole group of really nice guys turned around and looked at him And one of them turned back and went, oh, you can feel that? And I said, oh, yeah, just feel no offense. I didn't know if they liked him or not.
I said, no offense, but he doesn't seem like a good guy. And he was way across the room.
And they were like, oh, good sense on you. Oh, no, he's leading the opposition so he's the guy i think that was helping thwart benedict and he was on in the inside okay it's exactly the trump story would you agree yeah it felt like it it felt almost like a game of thrones within the the Vatican, didn't it? That's the best.
And it was the weirdest, weirdest feeling. Yeah.
And it's exactly what we saw in 2016. I had never seen that before, but it's exactly what we saw in 2016.
It's what we're now seeing in the EU where the people with power are just taking people out. The pattern here is really familiar because we've seen it in Washington.
We've seen it in Hollywood. We've seen it in the media.
It's the replacement of the immovable with those who are more malleable. The strong replaced by the inclusive, the faithful with the fashionable.
That's what happened. And this deep state doesn't just run in governments.
It runs in everything. It runs in institutions.
And when those institutions start to resist the world's direction, they're infiltrated, they're neutralized, and they're repurposed. And it is in everything.
It happened at the Vatican. I saw it.
And Pope Benedict was the warning shot that we all missed. He was the first Donald Trump, I believe.
Now, what happens next? Are we going to get somebody, you know, as the church is starting to grow again, the Catholic church is starting to grow and it's growing with generation Z who are saying, we want our traditions back. We want marriage.
We want truth. We want eternal truth as it's laid out in the gospels of Jesus Christ.
As it's growing, will the church grow in that direction?

Or has Francis put such a cabal in there that you might get somebody who says that, but is it going to be, yeah, we just elected a new guy and he's doing exactly what the last guy did, just the way it happens in our government and every other government on Earth.

We'll see. It begins today.

All right, more in just a second.

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you're not going to hear that opinion anywhere do you think still interesting uh considering it happened very very recently it wasn't exactly the way i thought you're going to come out but that's all right interesting interesting start to the program as usual i mean you know, I wish, I don't wish anybody any harm, obviously. And, you know, he was the pope and I have respect for the pope, but I have no respect for the policies that he held.
I'm not Catholic. So who am I to say it's, you know, I might as well be talking about women, you know, as astronauts.
I've never been to the moon. So what do I know? I'm not a Catholic, so I, you know, I don't mean to impose my, but it is my viewpoint and what I witnessed there.
And it's really fascinating. It's going to be fascinating to watch.
You know, yesterday I posted on X something that was happening in, where was that? In Ethiopia. And I saw this thing that happened on Easter Eve in Ethiopia.
And there had to be a million people out in front of this giant cathedral. And they were all holding candles and singing.
And it was amazing, amazing what's going on in Africa and all over the world. People are waking up again and it will be interesting to see what happens and who is who is selected by those in charge.
And, you know, we've seen it before where I think there were like two popes. Wasn't there two different popes that died right before in between Pope John Paul II? Because there was Pope John Paul I, and he lived for like 10 days.
And I think there was another one that died right before that. They went through this, and it was kind of like God was like, no, not not him and then oh okay john paul so we'll see did you just swipe right on pope is that what you were doing i did okay i mean as god i think god was like so right now right yeah i people are fascinated by this whole thing too right what there was they had the the movie that just came out right which where they were that was uh one of the best picture nominations uh you know people are i can't i didn't see it i don't know i i don't know i'm not you know as as you are i'm not catholic i don't uh i'm not all that involved in the uh in the process other than just kind of watch from afar but you're there the it's pretty amazing the wide range between benedict and francis is a really interesting thing that the catholic church is going to make a big decision on here real soon and uh that's going to be a fascinating thing to watch yeah because it's not just the future of the church but it's so influential you know in our politics and So yeah, it's going to be an interesting next few weeks.

Will the church turn back around, back towards tradition and truth and the Bible, or is it

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blazetv.com slash glenn welcome to the glennbeck program we're glad you're here i uh want to take on something else that i don't know maybe i should just keep my big fat. But because I think this one's going to piss off everybody, but it's the truth.
There was a story in the New York Times, the podcaster asking you to side with history's villains. He was in the New York Times.
Let me read some of it. Daryl Cooper is no scholar, but legions of fans, many on the right, can't seem to resist what he presents as hidden truths.
All of a sudden, everyone was coming for Daryl Cooper. There were the newspaper columnists, the historians, the Jewish groups.
Repugnant, says the chairman of Yad Vashem, Israel's Holocaust museum, in a statement. Even the Biden White House released a statement calling him a Holocaust denier who spreads Nazi propaganda.
So it was for a time for Mr. Cooper, one of the most popular podcasters in the country,

to do what he does best, hit record.

In a special episode of his history program, Martyr Made,

Mr. Cooper addressed the controversy,

which had exploded out of September's second appearance on the Tucker Carlson Show,

the podcast started by the former Fox News host.

At first, Mr. Cooper, a gifted historic storyteller, but not a trained historian, defended the claims he had made on Mr.
Carlson's show, one that Winston Churchill was the chief villain of the war. Ridiculous.
Not by implication. Adolf Hitler.
The two, and two, that millions had died in Nazi-controlled Eastern Europe because Nazis had not adequately planned to feed them. Okay, not true.
He then said, you know, the story goes on to say then kind of retracted some of that stuff. This emotional ventriloquism is part of Mr.
Cooper's approach and appeal. On TikTok, a fan praised him as one of the best historians of our time because he tries to go out of his way to understand the perspective of everyone involved in a situation.
These critics have probably helped make Mr. Cooper bigger than ever.
He has been the most subscribed to history newsletter on Substack, one spot ahead of the eminent economic historian Adam Tuzes in the wake of the Rogan interview Martyr made, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay.
So they go on and on and on to talk about how this just can't stand. I mean, we've got to there's got to be some sort of filter.
And, you know, Joe Rogan just can't have on whoever he wants to have on. That's the problem.
Is it New York Times? Is that the problem? Hmm. It's really interesting.
Now, let me just look in the past here and see if we've had this exact same problem with anybody else. Because the person that came to mind was not Daryl Cooper, but Nicole Hannah-Jones.
Because I think those two are the same coin. And the coin's counterfeit, but just opposite sides of the same coin.
The Martyr Maid podcast spins a tale of grievance and distrust, and it's wrapped enough in enough fact to keep it plausible. But there are some facts in there.
Okay. Jones, she did the 1619 project.
She did the same thing in reverse, except I think she's actually worse. I mean, because I think she made up almost everything in that.
She recasts American history as racist from the very inception of the country. Neither one of them is telling the whole truth.
Neither one of them. Neither one wants to, I think.
They're both in the business of narrative and not history. So am I.
But I try to be fair. The real problem is not these two.
Honestly, it's the New York Times. Because in their Sunday Styles write-up on Cooper, the Times poses as a concerned observer, wary of growing influence among the disaffected right.
Why are we disaffected? Why is the right disaffected? We're disaffected because you have tried to take our country from us, everything that we believe, our history, our values, our traditions. And you've tried to denigrate them and destroy them every step of the way.
And you've done it with one lie right after another. Okay.
Why are they framing him not with facts, but with suspicion? Not because he's dishonest or not dishonest, but because he's popular. They clutch their pearls because he has an audience, and only the New York Times can have that audience.
But where was that concern when they gave an audience to Nicole Hannah-Jones and gave her a Pulitzer for a project now so discredited by the very historians that are now talking about Cooper? Where was the caution when they declared that 1619, not 1776,

was the true founding of the nation?

They didn't question her authority.

They didn't say, well, she's not a historian.

They printed it.

In fact, they taught it and endorsed it.

They platformed it in schools.

That's different than anything that Joe Rogan is doing. They platformed it in schools.
So let's be clear. Okay.
I think both Cooper and Jones are wrong. They may have points worth considering, but I think that they get it fundamentally wrong in a few places.
They are looking at facts to sell the story and not necessarily reveal the truth. Now, maybe I'm being too cynical, but that's the way I see it.
And I'm not condemning either one. I'm condemning all of those on the left or the right that are now doing the same thing that the New York Times did with Cooper, but didn't do with Hannah Nicole Jones.
Only one of those two was lauded by the New York Times as legitimate and a necessary corrective, even though it was all a lie, made up. So that's what, when I'm reading that op-ed in the New York Times, I can't take the oh, my gosh, the hypocritical nature of it.
I just blood shoots out of my eyes. Because that's what The New York Times is actually saying.
Don't you little people understand? We must decide what stories are acceptable. Not you, not somebody like Joe Rogan.
We will decide which distortions are virtuous and which ones are dangerous. Not you.
We get to choose the false prophets that get a column and which ones are called conspiracy theorists. We at the New York Times, we in the media.
And that is the problem. This isn't about the authors.
Okay. First Amendment gives them a right to say whatever they want.
You may not like it. If you don't like it, stop listening.
Well, but other people might listen. Yeah, well, other people might listen.
And maybe we should pay more attention to our education in our schools.

Maybe we should pay more attention so we don't become somebody that is a dummy themselves. Because this is the problem.
We don't have a press that exposes lies anymore. We have a press that curates the lies.
i really think this is why I started collecting. You know, we have now the third largest collection of founding documents in the American Journey experience, along with David Barton's Wall Builders.
It is it's only behind the National Archives and the Library of Congress. Most people don't know it because, you know, we don't talk about it yet.

Beginning in 26, we're't talk about it yet.

Beginning in 26, we're going to be making a big deal out of it.

We also have the largest collection of Pilgrim-era artifacts and documents in the world.

The largest.

So I can tell you what happened in Jamestown in 1619.

I can tell you this.

The ship that Hannah Nicole Jones talks about, there were no slaves on that ship. How do I know? We have the manifest.
No slaves. Hmm.
That seems problematic, doesn't it? And the Mayflower did not launch a system of slavery. In fact, they fought against it.
We, so crazy. What the pilgrims did against slavery was remarkable, remarkable.
When a slave ship accidentally came into their port, it was slavery was against the law. They called it man stealing.
It was against the law. And as soon as that slave came into port, you could smell a slave ship.
They knew exactly what it was. And they marched up and they arrested the captain of the ship.
They put him in irons and put him in jail. And then these people who were already paying 50% of everything they made, these poor people, 50% of everything they made to a king that they despised, but they paid it because they wanted just to stay alive, they took up a collection from each other, not outside, from each other.
Got a new captain, refueled, restocked the ship, and sent those people, those slaves, back to Africa so they could be freed. That's who our pilgrims were.
Don't believe me? You don't have to take my word for it. We have the evidence.
Please. You know, the longest running treaty with Native Americans happened with our pilgrims.
And you know who broke it? Not the white man. It was the Native Americans.
And you know why? Because after years and years of the pilgrims and the Native Americans getting along, Christianity was starting to seep into their culture, and they needed to go to war with a tribe. And the war, the way they used to fight it, the Native Americans, it was okay to enslave your enemy.
In fact, you needed to. You could torture them after you won just to make a point.
And then you could enslave anybody you wanted. And Christianity said, no, you can't do either one of those things.
And so the Native Americans that were part of this tribe that were friends and under this treaty with the pilgrims, they started telling their chief, you know, we can't do these things. And the chief got so pissed because he's like, we're fighting a war and we're fighting the way we've always fought it, that they broke the treaty.
Did you know that? Nah, no, we were just horrible. We stole the land.
Oh, yeah. Did America live up to its ideals? No.
Has anybody ever? Have you? Has the pope? Has anybody really lived up to their ideals all the time? No.

But you have ideals, and that's what matters. By the way, on the other side, I also happen to own a few original Nazi documents from the actual perpetrators.
I've got documents from the engineer that actually calculated how much Zyklon B it would take to murder a room full of Jews. Okay.
It wasn't because they didn't want to, they didn't have enough food. This was calculated.
I have the final prescription signed by Dr. Mengele for a thousand liters of luminol for the so-called children's hospital.
That's how the Reich was killing the undesirables in the children's hospital. They didn't do it in a frenzy.
It wasn't in a riot. It wasn't out of desperation.
It was silence in lab coats with bureaucrats and experts signing off and the press, like the New York Times, refusing to say a word about it. The scariest people are not the ones in the streets.
They weren't. They were the ones with titles, with offices, with press credentials.

They were the ones with the doctorates.

They were the people who decided what could be published, who could be punished, what could be known, what could be said.

And that's the danger that we're staring down right now. Not from fringe theorists on a podcast, not even from overzealous academics with a Pulitzer.

But from the institutions that bless one distortion and condemn the other. Not based on truth, but based on usefulness.
Is it useful to our side? I just want you to know, this is my stance on this, and make this very, very clear.

The First Amendment does not exist to protect comfortable speech. It doesn't exist to protect Cooper as opposed to Jones.
It exists to protect both of them. It protects uncomfortable points of view, things you do not like to hear, and disagreement.
It protects people who are absolutely wrong and even those who are lying. It protects the process so you can figure it out.
There is no licensed priesthood in our country that are the priesthood of truth-tellers, no official ministry of facts. That's where countries go wrong.
The Times should be exposing both sides of these stories, just like I'm doing, the distortions of the right and the left. But instead, they become exactly what they've warned us about, a newspaper that prints dogma and not dialogue.
And the real problem here? No, the real solution here is you. Jefferson warned that a man who reads nothing but newspapers, I'm sorry, a man who reads nothing is better informed than a man who only reads the newspaper.
Okay, I would say the newspaper is today's social media. Man who reads nothing is better informed than a man who only reads the newspaper.
I would say the newspaper is today's social media. A man who reads nothing is more well-educated than a man who just only reads social media.
But today we might say better to be ignorant than confidently misled by trusted media. They see themselves not as a watchdog, but as a shepherd, and we are the sheep.

So I'm not defending either one. I'm defending the idea that we, the people, not the institutions,

not the elites, not the New York Times, not Joe Rogan, you decide what's true. And that takes work, and it takes curiosity.
Maybe the other guy's wrong. I don't know.
Maybe I don't have

the whole story either. I don't know.
Look it up. Because the minute you let somebody else decide what you're allowed to hear, you have already surrendered your freedom to think.
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The UPS store visit a store today. Oh, I, uh, I have a few things to say about what's happening with the return of the illegals.
That is, this is an outrage. We have got to stop.
This is, do you know, this was actually a point of view on MSNBC. One, that this is exactly what Hitler did.
Surprise, surprise. And next, this is just Donald Trump lulling African-Americans to sleep.
You're next. He's going to deport you.
African- Oh my God. Are we really this stupid that we're just going to allow this? And why the concentration on this? We'll talk about it next.
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Down the road where shadows hide, feel the dark on every side. Stand your ground when times get dark.
Gotta face the dark Beck Program. Hello, America.
Welcome to the Glenn Beck Program. We're glad you're here.
I'm in Washington, D.C. I'm going to meet with the president on Wednesday.
I would really like to hear from you on what would you like me to ask the president? What if you had one question to ask the president, what would it be? You can tweet that to me and you could also try to call in. I don't know if we're going to have time to get the phone calls today, but I would tweet it, add Glenn Beck, and I'll ask the questions, hopefully, that you want the answers to.
I've got a lot myself, but that happens on Wednesday. I think I'm talking to the Secretary of Education tomorrow.
I hope I'm going to be talking to the Secretary of Treasury as well. And perhaps Kash Patel trying to get in with Kash Patel.
We'll see. And, and a few other things this week.
So we'll get to that here in a second. I just want to talk to you about some actual numbers and just see if we can cut through the bull crap on all of the stuff that's going on with Donald Trump.
It's Hitler yet again. Chris Matthews said, what he's doing, he's just like Hitler.
It is what Hitler did to the Jews. Really, is it? We'll get into this here in just a second.
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All right. You know, I was, I was in, I'm staying at a hotel right across the street from the white house and, uh, my wife and I, we got here yesterday afternoon and we went out and we were on the balcony and I'm, I'm looking down and we're right.
We're right at Lafayette park and Lafayette park is where they tried to pull down all the statues and they set the church on fire. Remember BLM? And then, you know, of course, Donald Trump was, he was a Nazi because he tried to put that down.
Um, and it's somewhat cleaned up now. Uh, it's not as nice as it used to be, but it's, it's somewhat cleaned up.
And when I get there, everything, nobody's in the park. And, uh, there's just some people that are, uh, fighting for, uh, you know, peace in Gaza, you know, death to the Jew, peace and that kind of stuff.
And, uh, then there was, um, we got to stop sending people to El Salvador because they're citizens too. No, they're really not citizens.
And nobody was in the park. And it was just sad.
I thought, what's happened? You can't go into the park right across the street from the White House. It used to be such a beautiful place.
And about an hour later, I come over and they're opening up the gates to the park and they're letting everybody in. And these two boys are playing baseball.
Just throwing baseball between themselves underneath the trees in this park, right across the street from the White House. And it just was so iconic and so American.
And it kind of just, I don't know, just kind of renewed my soul just a little bit that, yeah, America still does exist. It's fading quickly, you know, because we don't know what truth is anymore.
We have no idea what truth is. I mean, do you remember the truth when, when Arizona was fighting to make sure that they could deport illegals in their own state because it had become the number one kidnapping capital in the world? I think there were maybe it was number two in the world and it was in Arizona.
You're like, what? And so they were fighting. And of course, Obama Obama administration, they fought and said, no, no, no.
You can't do anything on your own as a state. Now the state is fighting to make sure that they don't cooperate with ICE.
They don't ship anybody out. And I'm thinking to myself, what Americans think that this is okay? What Americans, what are you fighting for? Are you really are you really that unplugged? You're just so Pavlovian that you just start to you just go vicious when the you know, when you hear Donald Trump and his name.
chris matthews chris matthews was doing an interview on msnbc and uh he was talking to jim acosta boy there's a brain trust for you and uh chris matthews said you know i'm in washington cab drivers talking about the oj trial all day that this is what it's like what they're talking about the cab drivers are all talking about the... If you're in Washington, D.C., there's not a single person that's driving a cab that knows who O.J.
Simpson is, okay? Not one. But, you know, they were all saying how that just dominated our life, and this is the way this is, you know? But I've got some questions, you know? Isn't this exactly what Hitler did? Now, I don't know how you get from Adolf Hitler from O.J.
Simpson. Maybe, well, I mean, because they were killers, maybe? I'm not sure.
But Chris Matthews says to Jim Acosta, you know, what did Hitler do? What did Hitler do in the Holocaust? He took people from Germany to other countries. Yeah, says Jim Acosta.
There was no German law. There was not even a pretense of German law.
They just took him to Poland and Hungary. You know, gets him out of the country, just like our president's doing in El Salvador.
Are you out of your mind? then later on msnbc they have a new host i mean they just i don't know where they get these people

uh simone sanders she Then later on MSNBC, they have a new host. I mean, they just I don't know where they get these people.
Simone Sanders. She claimed on Saturday that the deportation of Salvadorian citizen suspected of MS-13 gang member membership is just one step on the road toward Donald Trump deporting black Americans.
yeah think you think you're trying to go ahead. I'll give you time to do the math on that one.
If they can do it to them, if they can snatch students off the streets without any pushback or recourse, they'll do it to any one of us. To be very clear, it's going to be the people of color and the vulnerable communities that are next in line.
Oh, you mean like the Jews? I'm sorry, Simone. I mean,

then you must be for the Jews, right? The most vulnerable among us. I mean, oh, you're not.
Oh, okay. Again, you make my math, you know, you make the math part of my head hurt because I don't understand how you're getting there.
But since we're on math, let's just do a little of the numbers, shall we?

I just want to go over, since Bill Clinton, and Bill Clinton, I mean, this is when it really started.

I mean, you could say that it was Eisenhower, but it wasn't even close.

It wasn't even close.

So let's go back to Bill Clinton.

How many people did Bill Clinton deport? A million? Well, 12.3 million. Okay.
That includes 11.4 million returns and then 0.9 million. So a million formal removals.
Okay. So the returns are mainly at the border, uh, 93% of the total.
And then a million, he actually went into the city and he scooped them up and he sent them back home. All right.
How many, how many court injunctions were there in the eight years, in the eight years, how many court injunctions were there? Well, if you're being very generous, there were 12. Most people say zero.
But if you want to be very, very generous, 12. Okay, in eight years.
Clinton had the 96 Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigration Responsibility Act. You know, when everybody was like, Hey, we should enforce our laws.
They're not citizens. It could be, it could be harmful for jobs.
It could be harmful for our children and communities. It's really bad for our schools because we have to have translators in every class now, all of that stuff.
Then George Bush gets in. Now this is under, this is right after 9-11.
So how many people did he deport? 8.3 million returns. That means 8.3 at the border and 2 million kicked down the door, haul them out and send them home.
Okay. 2 million, twice the number of the kick down the door, but still less overall than Bill Clinton did.

How many how many court injunctions for this one? Six. OK, so that's from 2001 until 2008.
2008. All right.
How about Barack Obama? Barack Obama deported 5.3 to 5.5. I don't know why we don't know the exact number.
I guess we get sloppy with our math. I know, we're doing Common Core math at this point.
I don't know. I can't give you an exact number, but I can tell you how I got there, even though the number's wrong.
Oh, that's good. That was 3 million formal removals.
So that's under Barack Obama. That's a million more formal removals than George Bush did.
Okay. 2 million more than Barack, than Bill Clinton did formal removals.
Okay. Bill Clinton still did did more than anybody else but he was turning them away from the border okay all right so you can see now what are what are donald trump's numbers you know i mean it's got to be bad right mm-hmm well in 2017 to 2021 he he deported 1.5 to 2 million dollars our math is even getting more sloppy now including 1.2 to 1.5 million formal removals and fewer returns we were deporting people it was lower than obama's partly due to reduced illegal immigration and Title 42.
But in fiscal years 2017 and 2020, about a million removals. Okay? Million removals.
Then in 2021, we go the opposite way. We just start bringing people in by the millions.
All Right. So how many court injunctions for Donald Trump on his first term? 30.
30. Okay, wait a minute.
Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
What was it? Bill Clinton had, how many did he have in two terms? Court injunctions. He had 12.
Some say you're really being generous. If you give it 12, it should be zero.
Okay. George Bush court injunctions he had 12 some say you're really being generous if you give it 12 it should be zero

okay george bush court injunctions six barack obama this is because of daca and everything else he had 12 30 for donald trump now that might tell you something maybe we're looking how to weaponize the courts.

But that was only in his first term.

Okay.

The second term. That might tell you something.
Maybe we're looking how to weaponize the courts.

But that was only in his first term.

Okay.

The second term.

Now, remember, he just started this year.

He's got another 30 injunctions that he is working against.

And how many people has he deported?

Because it's got to be huge, right? I mean, it's got to be enormous no actually not actually not approximately again we're getting even worse with

our math this is so appropriate for America we just get dumber and dumber like I can't count I

don't know how put numbers on paper 100,000 to 138,000 okay he deported 37,660 in his

Thank you. on paper 100 000 to 138 000 okay he deported 37 660 in his first month estimates suggesting 2500 3 000 daily removers removals thereafter 60 days 1500 a day that is that pace is now slower than biden's final year but very aggressive for a first term.
Okay. He's got 30.
He's doing, he's doing less than Joe Biden did in his last term. And everybody's saying he's Hitler.
Could I just remind you again about the numbers for Bill Clinton? See, this is why you have no leg to stand on. None.
You cannot have an argument with me or somebody who knows the facts. You just can't.
Because these are the numbers. Numbers don't lie.
How are you totally okay? I don't even remember When I found out that Bill Clinton was the actual king of deportations. I was shocked.
I had no idea. I was sure that it was Eisenhower.
He's not even in the boat. He's not even close.
Eisenhower, he did Operation Wetback, you know. He did nothing compared to Bill Clinton.
Nothing compared to Barack Obama.

Come on.

Now, he was the worst.

Well, he was also, oh my gosh, he was a Republican.

Isn't that weird?

And then George Bush.

He was a Republican, so of course he was a demon.

And then when I went down to the border and I said, you know, they're keeping these people in cages.

They were like, no, that's not true.

That's Glenn Beckett a conspiracy.

And then when Donald Trump gets in, they show the same cages that I showed.

And they were like, Donald Trump built cages.

And I'm like, no, they didn't.

I showed these.

I tried to get this information to you,

Chuck Todd. You wouldn't have it.
Why? Why? Why wouldn't you have it? Because this is all political.

So it's really not worth your time. It's worth your time to learn the truth.

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Station ID. So, Stu, do you know the story here about what happened with the bus load of illegals that were going to el salvador and then in the middle of the night they were turned around because the supreme court issued a issue to stay i wouldn't say i know more than i've you know the basics i've seen reported that you kind of just outlined there i mean it's okay it's an amazing uh i mean it's an

amazing time right now because they're trying to fight this out in the courts and uh you know and nobody has the facts nobody has the facts you know even samuel alito coming out and yeah did you let may i read what sam this is what samuel alito wrote the court has just issued an unprecedented and legally questionable

relief without giving the lower courts a chance to rule without hearing from

the opposing party within eight hours of receiving the application with dubious

factual support for its order and without providing any explanation for its

order.

That's incredible.

You want to talk about a court

system that is out of control.

Can you imagine? Imagine

if Donald Trump and

the court was just doing that

in the middle of the night, saying,

nope, no more, and didn't even

alert the whole court

and didn't even ask for the other side,

just ruled in the middle of the night.

Can you imagine what they'd be saying?

They couldn't be saying

anything worse than they're saying now, so I guess it doesn't Thank you. And didn't even ask for the other side.
Just ruled in the middle of the night. Can you imagine what they'd be saying?

They couldn't be saying anything worse than they're saying now.

So I guess it doesn't matter.

But holy cow.

It's supposed to.

One of the things they've been relatively consistent about, at least in their writings over the years,

have been we're supposed to wait for the process to play out.

Right?

That's supposed to be what happens here.

You're supposed to wait until the lower courts rule and then it goes up the chain and you know unless there's like some emergency order that like you know we've we've seen occasionally around specific events where they've kind of cut this corner but it's pretty rare and usually because of a specific deadline like an election you know for example um that they have to rule on something quickly. It's a very odd approach.
They seem to be trying to just send a message to Donald Trump constantly, which I don't know. Oh, that's all they're doing.
I'm worried about the matchup that they're setting up and how it's going to turn out. This is one of the things I am going to ask the president about.
I am going to ask him, where's Pam Bondi? Where is the Justice Department? Why are you not going after people that are breaking the law? You're trying to with the illegals that are breaking the law. But what about, I mean, did you see what they released on Fauci? We're going to get into that in a second.
Do you see what they released about COVID? That's amazing. Now, where is the punishment for that? Where is it? Like, I don't know if you heard about this judge in New Mexico that just resigned from the bench because he was harboring a guy in his house that was an MSN, MS-13 gang

member, okay, and was shown, you know, firing automatic weapons and everything, nothing he

could do, showing him shooting them in New Mexico. They found him in the judge's house.

I don't know, there might be a problem, might be a problem. And will that judge go to jail? Who knows? This is Glenn Beck.
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Use the promo code Glenn and you'll save 20 bucks. uh this morning there was a story stew can you check this out for me see what gold is at right now uh early this morning when i got up around 5 a.m eastern uh gold was spiking again the highest place it's ever been gold i mean the dollar was starting to fall uh not good it was today i think it was three three thousand three hundred and i don't know 60 something like that do you have the number still yeah three thousand four thirty five currently holy cow up another three percent

thirty five hundred 60 something like that do you have the number still yeah 3435 currently holy cow up another 3 3500 almost 3500 that is this is not good this is not good the the the gold going up is a sign of confidence uh and the rest of the world the the central banks are buying gold up. And, you know, again, what do rich people know that maybe you don't know that things are shaky with the dollar and things are shaky with gold.
So you might want to consider that. I mean, I'm not a financial advisor.
This is not a commercial, but I'm just telling you that this is a big warning sign. Big, big, big, big, big warning sign.
We're 3,500, approaching $3,500 an ounce. It was, what was it? You said this just last week.
I had to look it up, Stu. It was at the beginning of the year that it was 2,500? almost gained a thousand dollars uh yeah i'm out on that number let's see yeah no you're you're right on there it was yeah 2024 we were still at around two thousand dollars an ounce early 2024.
unbelievable yeah unbelievable that's right we're not even halfway through yeah about five pretty flat years for gold between 2020 and 2024 uh and then it started going up in you know early to mid 2024 and it's been a kind of like a roller coaster street you're still just climbing it's up on about 100 uh in the past five years but you know you know in the past year it's most of that gain has happened so and again you've mentioned this for a long time obviously you know we talk about gold being a good hedge kind of against insanity and um a good piece of your portfolio however you you kind of almost don't want it to be this high because it's just indicating such scary times. No.
Before I lost my gold in that horrible boating accident, you know. Terrible.
You'd like, I mean, gold is an investment. You'd like it to go up.
I don't want it to go up. I don't want it to go up anymore.
I'd like it to come back down. This is a very, very bad sign.
All right. So the media over the weekend, they were like, oh, did you see what Donald Trump did with the COVID.com or .gov website? And he put it on the White House.gov website now, all the lies about COVID? You mean all the corrections on COVID? This is this is an amazing thing and i'd love to hear your thoughts on this uh stew about what they what they published at whitehouse.gov the origin according to public health officials and the media to discredit the lab leak theory was prompted by dr fauci to push the preferred narrative that COVID-19 originally originated naturally.
Point one, the virus possesses a biological characteristic that is not found in nature. Number two, data shows that all COVID-19 cases come from a single introduction into humans.
This runs contrary to previous pandemics where there were multiple spillover events. Three, Wuhan is home to China's foremost SARS research lab, which has a history of conducting gain-of-function research, gene-altering, and organism supercharging in an inadequate biosafety level.
Number four, Wuhan Institute of Virology researchers were sick with COVID with symptoms in the fall of 2019, months before COVID-19 was discovered at the wet market. We talked about that.
I mean, probably within a couple of months of COVID happening, we had that information. We're like, let's look back.
Why were they redoing all of that institute? You know, they completely gutted all of the air ducts, everything else. They completely upgraded it around November.
And then lo and behold, in December, we start to find out that, whoa, something in the wet market happened. By nearly all measures of science, if there was evidence of a natural origin, it would have already surfaced, but it hasn't.
This is from the White House now. And it goes through all of it.
And then it goes through Fauci's pardon and his obstruction and eco-health's obstruction and Dr. David Moren's and the obstruction of your favorite person.
I think you'll really like what they say about Andrew Cuomo on the website. Yeah, that was probably, I think it's the best place on the entire internet for that reason.
We found it. Cuomo's failure? It just says Andrew Cuomo failure.
Failure. And it's a great summary of his entire life not just this particular issue

um but yeah that's it's i mean i thought a lot of it if you follow this stuff closely was not

new information right it was a good summary and a breakdown of the stuff that we have learned over

the past few years on this on this topic i think the key thing maybe you know what i still don't

think that it is recognized as the official thing i mean this has been out now for a long time

Thank you. topic i think the key thing maybe you know what i still don't think that it is recognized as the official thing i mean this has been out now for a long time you know we started doing most of this stuff we had within what six or eight months of the actual outbreak we knew by the summer and we were broadcasting all of this and we didn't have all of the documents but we had everything that that led up to the document that said, hey, we got to change all this.
We had the document before going, hey, I think you guys are wrong. Then a document that said we should probably talk offline.
And then the next document we had was no, everything we were saying is the complete opposite. Now, we didn't have the middle document there and that's been released now so we had all of this stuff just not the smoking guns all the smoking guns are there and i still don't think i mean and it's partially because who's going to jail over this millions of people died millions is anybody be held responsible for this that's a great question it't seem, I hope that's a high priority of the administration.
There's several things out of this level. I would also throw something like Joe Biden was mentally incapable to be president of the United States and everyone was hiding it.
I'd put that into the same category. But like, I think the key thing that from this, which I don't think enough people know, is the cover up.
You know, I think. Yeah, that's the real.
I mean, it always is. You're right.
We said a lot of these things in the in the months after COVID came out and a lot of it really early, frankly. But part of the problem as to why it didn't become i think the consensus at the time was all of these institutional mainstream sources disagreeing with it right and like you know no offense and the fact i mean stew we couldn't say anything about covid and not get banned and demonetized i mean we you know all the shows that we did unless you were a member of the blaze you didn't see them because we put them online and you didn't see them yeah and to be clear our solution to that problem was to to say it anyway and get banned and demonetized right you know again uh what else are you going to do i don't know why else we would have this job if you're not going to go for for that but correct there was a that situation where we sure we were saying saying and sure people in this audience heard it and and yes some people on the right were familiar with with the skepticism and the pushback on this stuff but because no none of these mainstream media outlets really adopted any of those positions or took them seriously or even gave them a fair hearing a lot of people just you know i mean understandably if, understandably, if you're on the left, you're looking at this stuff and you see, okay, well, Glenn Beck's saying it doesn't, I'm not going to believe it.
The New York Times is saying it's a conspiracy theory. I'm not surprised they just believed that.
That cover up where people right under Fauci are on record saying they want to delete the email so that they can't, so that one finds out about what they're talking about that sort of stuff while i think the lab leak theory and some of those other pieces of skepticism that the conservative side had early on have been very much vindicated the cover-up as to why it needed to be vindicated has not really had the attention it deserves yet 100 true now why why i mean it's the same people i will say you know some of these some of these places have written about this now some of these places have talked about uh about it but it hasn't been a you know the hey did you know donald trump is hitler's sort march? And you'd think it would be. I mean, as you point out, millions of people died here.
You'd think that it would be something they would focus on and draw a lot of attention to and continue to kind of beat the drum until someone was held responsible. And they don't seem to have any interest in that whatsoever.
They kind of like, it seems like now they're in that stage where they want to say, look, we have this op-ed. We've talked about it.
And most of them have run an op-ed by now, right? But it's not been this constant thing. It's not this deep dive constantly sending reporter after reporter after reporter to find out what actually happened.
That stuff doesn't seem to be of interest at all if we make a mistake we correct it because it drives us crazy that we made the mistake and i don't i don't want anybody to believe that i'm standing behind something that we found out was wrong and a lie i mean we might be wrong from time to time but we've never knowingly lied. I think some of these groups, they knowingly lied.
They the New York Times, they were knowingly lying about Joe Biden and his senility, knowingly lying. They knew people in the media knew they just didn't want to hurt or I should say it this way.
They just didn't to help Donald Trump so they thought that a senile old man with the buttons is much better than a Donald

Trump they thought not knowing who the president of the United States actually is you know they

say they're defending the constitution now because if we don't have a constitution if we don't have

rule of law we have no country where was your rule of law with with Joe Biden who actually was

Thank you. now because if we don't have a constitution if we don't have rule of law we have no country where was your rule of law with with joe biden who actually was running the white house who was running it you don't want the rule of law you want control that's what you want and you know i would be horrified if i had been a part of any of that horrified but they're not and not.
And you know what? There's no consequence. They're not going to lose any advertisers.
The New York Times hasn't lost any real money because of this. Their people just continue to watch.
I mean, if we were this wrong about things, I would hope that we would have seen a lot of cancellations. I would hope that people are like, you know, I don't know if I can trust you anymore, Glenn, because we would have earned that, especially after a couple of years where I'm like, oh, by the way, all of that stuff we said was wrong.
Hey, in other news, and that's what they're doing. They just run one little story like, yeah, everything we said was wrong.
And then they go on it, but Donald Trump is Hitler. Why should I? That's the thing I just don't understand.
How do people continue to believe the people who have been so wrong about stuff that is this important? They, they lied to you. They knowingly lied to you.
How?

You know, Donald Trump appointed somebody to do Doge.

Yeah, well, he wasn't elected.

Who was the president of the United States?

Because the guy we elected, he wasn't the president.

Why does it matter now that Doge, which the president has absolute right to do, he's not the the president he's not making these calls on his own he's reporting to the president why is why is doge such a problem but you know joe biden crapping his pants and looking you know trying to find old jelly beans in the couch from you know ron reagan days that's totally fine i i mean i don't know i don't i don't know how people live with themselves yeah wouldn't it

they do strangely at the very least give you a sense of um fallibility that like hey you know

i can get sucked into something like this and be totally wrong and i and i should really watch

myself next time i decide i want to write you know story number 9 345 that trump is hitler maybe question whether uh my certainty is is warranted and i i think that's something they just never have that moment of self-reflection none none it's come out everything about you know the russiagate came out now in in court documents that, you know, Hillary Clinton was the one who approved all of that. And she knew it wasn't accurate, but she approved it.
Why? Why? Why? Why does anybody know about that? Why doesn't anybody care? Because nobody in the media actually cares and justify the means. They just hate Donald Trump so much.
They'll do anything, anybody they will sleep with. They will sharpen the knives of anyone that says they'll put that in the back of Donald Trump.
All right. Back in just a second.
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We are, I'm thrilled to have the Time Magazine's 100 most influential people in AI joining us here in just a little while. We're going to talk about AI and what's coming.

And this is a guy who used to he used to work uh for uh open ai and he left and he was like i think they might be a little irresponsible here so we're going to talk to him about what's coming what's coming next good things and the bad things uh and uh he says this is a reckless race.

Okay.

What does that mean? And who should be running this?

We're going to talk to him in just a second.

If you missed any portion of the program, make sure you get the podcast, wherever you get your podcast.

We start with the Pope and a perspective on what's happening in the Vatican that you will not hear anywhere else. Make sure you get today's podcast.
This is Glenn Beck. Let me talk to you about Jace.
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Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh play cut to Jasmine Crockett?

Here it is. But here's the reality.
As far as I'm concerned, he's a lot less criminal than the person that's sitting in the White House. Because last time I checked, he doesn't have any criminal convictions.
I don't even think he has any outstanding cases versus the guy that still had cases pending when he was sworn in on January 20th and also has 34 felony convictions. conviction so listen i don't want to hear anything from the republican party about how they trying to keep us safe when their fearless leader is actually the biggest criminal thus far that we have seen because i haven't seen anybody with a rap sheet that looks like the president's okay jasmine crockett uh for president that's all i have to say uh delightful that is.
I mean, I could go. I could go there.
But really, do we have to? I mean, don't we? I mean, I think we all get it. You know, it's the day after Easter.
And I don't know. I'd rather talk about bunnies for an hour.
But I have something so much better than bunnies for an hour. I have one of the guys.
Time Magazine called him one of the 100 most influential people in AI. I mean, I hate to break it to him.
I was one of the most influential people in the world at one point. So it kind of takes the shine off of that whole thing.
But he to be on that uh he is uh the executive director of the ai futures project he is a former open ai researcher and uh he's got some warnings on some things and i thought you know after last week when i saw the uh the thing from eric schmidt where he was like you know we really don't know what's's coming. You know, in a couple of years, it's going to be smarter than all of us.
And what does that mean? You know, I don't know. I thought we should just spend a couple of minutes on that, you know.
So we're going to do that here in 60 seconds. Stand by first.
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So we have Daniel Cocotelo, and he's a former open AI researcher.

Daniel, have you been on the program before?

I don't think you have.

Have you?

No, I haven't.

Yeah.

Well, welcome.

I'm glad you're here.

Really appreciate it.

Thank you, sir.

Wanted to have you on because I am a guy who I've been talking about AI forever, and it is both just thrilling and one of the scariest things I've ever seen at the same time.

Thank you. ways uh it's going to be very thrilling and also very scary yeah okay good good good all right well uh thanks for starting my monday off with that um so can you can you tell me first of all let's start with some of the good things that you think are coming and are right around the corner that people just don't understand because i don't think anybody the average person has they hear this they think it's oh it's like social media it's going to be like the cell phone it's going to change everything and they don't know that yet yeah well um where to begin i think so probably people are familiar with systems like chat gpt now which are large language models that you can go have an actual normal conversation with, unlike ordinary software programs.
They're getting better at everything. In particular, right now and in the next few years, the companies are working on turning them into autonomous agents.
So instead of simply responding to some message that you send them and then, you know, turning off, they would be continuously operating, roaming around, browsing the internet, working on their own projects on their own computers, checking in with you, sending you messages like a human employee, basically. That's what the companies are working on now.
And it's the stated intention of the CEOs of these companies to build eventually super intelligence. What is super intelligence? Super intelligence is fully autonomous AI systems that are better than humans at absolutely everything.
So on the surface, that sounds like a movie that we've all seen. And you kind of, you know, you say that and you're like, anybody that's working on these, have they seen the same movies I've seen? I mean, what the heck? Let's spring and let's just go to see Jurassic Park.
You know, Ex Machina. What do you think? I don't, I mean, is it just me or do people in the industry go, you know, this could be really bad?

Yeah, it's a great question.

And the answer is they totally have seen those movies and they totally think, yes, it could go really bad.

In fact, that's part of the founding story of some of these companies.

So what do you mean?

What do you mean?

So Shane Legg, who is, I guess, arguably the technical founder of DeepMind, which is now part of Google DeepMind.

Thank you. What do you mean? So Shane Legg, who is, I guess, arguably the technical founder of DeepMind, which is now part of Google DeepMind, which is one of the big three companies building towards superintelligence.

I believe in his PhD thesis, he discussed the possibility of superhuman AI systems and how if they were not correctly aligned to the right values, if they were not correctly instilled with the appropriate ethics, that they could kill everyone and become a superior competitor species to humans. It's not just him.
Lots of the people at these companies, especially early on, basically had similar thoughts of, wow, this is going to be the biggest thing ever. If it goes well, it could be the best thing that ever happens.
If it goes poorly, it could literally kill everyone or do something similarly catastrophic like leading to a permanent dystopia. People react to that in different ways.
So some people sort of stayed in academia, some people stayed in whatever other jobs they had or founded nonprofits to do research about this sort of thing. Some people decided, well, if this is going to happen, then it's better if good people like me and my friends are in charge when it happens.
And so that's basically the founding story of a lot of these companies. That's sort of part of why DeepMind was created.
And that's part of why OpenAI was created. I highly recommend going and reading some of the emails that surfaced in court documents related to the lawsuits against OpenAI.
Because in some of those emails, you see some of the founders of OpenAI talking to each other about why they founded OpenAI. And basically it was because they didn't trust DeepMind to handle this responsibly.

And did they go on to come up with, did they go on to say like, you know,

and that's why we've developed this and it's going to protect us from it i mean or did they just lose their way what happened i mean it's an interesting sociological question my my take on it is that institutions tend to be um tend to conform to their incentives over time there's been a sort of like There's been a sort of evaporative cooling effect where the people who are most concerned about where all this is headed tend to not be the ones who get promoted and end up running the companies. And they tend to be the ones who, for example, quit, like me.
Let's stop there for a second. Hang on, just stop there for a second.
You were a governance researcher at OpenAI on scenario planning. What does that mean? I was a researcher on the governance team.
Scenario planning is just one of several things that I did. So basically, I mean, I did a couple different things at OpenAI.
One of the things that I did was try to game out what the future is going to look like. So AI 2027 is a, uh, much bigger, more elaborate, more rigorous version of, uh, some smaller projects that I sort of did while I was at OpenAI, if that makes sense.
Like, I think back in 2022, I like wrote my own, like,

here's gaming out what the next couple of years were going to look like

internal scenario, right?

And then now that I've left, I can, I'll get some things right,

get some things wrong.

The basic trend is hard to miss, right?

ASSIM is getting better and better, becoming more autonomous, et cetera.

For how close I was overall, I actually did a similar scenario back in 2021 before I joined OpenAI. And so you can go read that and judge what I got right and what I got wrong.
I would say that that's about par for the course for me when I tend to do these sorts of things. And I'm hoping that 2027 will also be, you know, about that level of right and wrong.
So you mentioned, I think the thing, the thing I wrote in 2021 is called what 2026 looks like, in case you want to look it up. Okay, we'll look it up.
You walked away from millions in equity in open AI. What, what, what made you walk away? What were they doing that made you go, I don't think it's worth the money? So back to the bigger picture, I think.
Remember, these companies are trying to build superintelligence. It's going to be better than humans, better than the best humans at everything, while also being faster and cheaper, and you can just make many, many copies of them.
The CEO of Anthropic, Dario Amadai, he uses this term, the country of geniuses on a data center, to try to visualize what it would look like, because're talking, you know, millions of copies, each one of which is smarter than the smartest geniuses while also being more charismatic than the most charismatic, you know, celebrities and politicians and like everything. Right.
So that's what they're building towards. And that raises a bunch of important questions.
Like, is that even a good idea for us to build, for example? And like, how are we going to make that safe? And also, who gets to control the army of geniuses in the data centers? Right. And what orders are they going to be given? And who gets to decide? And these are some extremely important questions.
And actually, that's not even another questions. And there's a huge, actually, that's not even another question.
There's a long list of other very important questions too. I was just scratching the surface.
And what I was hoping would happen at OpenAI and at these other companies is that as the creation of these AI systems gets closer and closer, you know, it started out being far in the future, but as time goes on and progress is made, it starts to feel like something that could happen in the next few years, right? Yes, right. As we get closer and closer, there needs to be a lot more waking up and paying attention and asking these hard questions and a lot more effort exerted to prepare to deal with these issues.
So for example, OpenAI created the super alignment team, which was a team of technical researchers and engineers specifically focused on the question of how do we make sure that we can put any values into these AI systems? How do we make sure that we can control them at all, even when they're smarter than us? So they started that team, and they said that they were going to give 20% of their compute to working on this problem, basically. How much percentage went? uh well i don't know and I can't say, but I think it's much less than 20%.
Yeah, I could imagine it is. Yeah, so 20% was huge at the time because it was way more than any company was devoting to that technical question at the time.
So at the time, it was a sort of leap forward. It didn't pan out.
As far as I know, they're still not at anywhere near 20%. And that's just an example of the sort of thing that made me quit, where I'm like, we are just not ready, and we're not even taking the steps to get ready.
And so we are going to be anyway, even though we don't understand it, don't know how to control it you know it's going to be a disaster that's basically uh what caused me to leave so so hang on just a second um give me a minute i'm going to come back and i want to ask you you have an opinion on who should run this because i don't like opening i i mean i like i like x better than anybody only because Elon Musk is just open to free speech on everything.

But I don't even trust him.

I don't trust any of these people.

And I certainly don't trust the government.

So who's going to end up with all of this compute?

And do we get the compute and enough to be able to stop it or enough to be able to be dangerous?

I mean, oh, it just makes your head hurt. We'll go into that when we come back.
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10-second station ID.

Daniel Cocotello. find his work at ai-2027.com.
So Daniel, who is going to end up with control of this thing? Great question. What do I want to say here? Well, probably no one.
And if not no one, probably some CEO or president would be my guess.

Oh, that's comforting. You you want to understand why I think this, and in general, like in general, if you want to understand my views, the views of my team at the AI Futures Project, and sort of how it all fits together and why we came to these conclusions, you can go read our website, which has all of this stuff on it, which is basically our best guess attempt at predicting the future.
Obviously, you know, the future is very difficult to predict. We're probably going to get a bunch of things wrong, but this is our best guess.
And that's AI-2027.com? Yes. Yeah.
As you were saying, it seems like we're going to if if one of these companies or several of these companies succeed in getting to this army of geniuses on the data center the super intelligent ais there's the question of who controls them there's a technical question of can do we does humanity even have the tools it needs to control super intelligent ais that does anyone control them um and i mean it seems to me like an unsolved question i think anybody who really understands this it's like you know we can build gates but it's like a baby gate i mean you know imagine a baby trying to outsmart the parent you're're not going to be able to do it. It'll just step over that gate.

And I don't understand why a super intelligence wouldn't just go, oh, that's cute, not doing that. You know what I mean? Totally.
And getting a little bit into the literature here. So there's a division of strategies into AI control techniques and AI alignment techniques.
So the control techniques are designed to

allow you to control the super intelligent AI or the, you know, AGI or whatever it is you're trying to control, despite the fact that it might be at odds with you and it might have different goals than you have, different opinions about how the future should be, right? So that's a sort of adversarial technique where you, for example, restrict its access to stuff and you monitor it closely. And you use other copies of the AI as watchers to play them off against each other.
There's all these sort of control techniques that are designed to work even if you can't trust the AIs. and then there's alignment techniques, which are designed to make it the case that you don't need the control techniques because the AIs are virtuous and loyal and obedient and trustworthy, you know, et cetera, right? And so alignment techniques are trying to sort of instill the specified values deeply into the AIs in robust ways so that you never need the control techniques because they would never, you know, so there's alignment techniques

and control techniques. Both are important fields of research.
There's maybe a couple

hundred people working on these fields right now. Hold on because both of them sound like

they're not going to work, but we'll come back with more in a minute. Glenn Beck.
Is that a movie? We're living in a movie. All right, you can feel the unease in the markets, a sense that something is moving right underneath the surface, and you're just trying to stay a step ahead of it.
For a lot of Americans right now, the question isn't if there's going to be a collapse, it's when and how bad. I was having a conversation with Chad GPT over the weekend about $5,000 gold.
And I said, you know, what does the world look like at $5,000 gold? Because I think I know it wasn't pretty by any stretch of the imagination. And I think one of the scariest lines was, and it's not really a matter of if now, it's just a matter of when, because things are, you know, they're spiraling out.
So you might want to call and see if gold is right for you, gold or silver. I don't care if you have a dollar in it.
You know, $5,000 gold, we're at 3,500, or what is it? $3,500 or $3,600 today. Twelve months ago, it was at $24,000.
All right, I mean, that's not good. Not good.
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so so everybody in the office now is looking at uh ai-2027.com and let me just say it's not going to improve your mood much let me just give you this at the end of 2025 let me give give you just this. Do the fully trained models have some kind of robust commitments to always being honest? Or will this fall apart in some future situation? Because it's learned honesty is an instrumental goal instead of a terminal goal.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Could it be lying to itself sometimes as humans do? Researchers try to identify cases where the model seemed to deviate from the spec.
Agent one is often sycophantic. It tells researchers what they want to hear instead of trying to tell them the truth.
In a few rigged demos, I don't know what that means. We're going to have to ask him in a second.
It even lies in more serious ways, like hiding evidence that it failed on a task in order to get better ratings however in real deployment settings there are no longer any uh incidents so extreme as in the 2023-24 gemini telling the user to die and uh bing sid uh sydney being bing sydney i don't know what that means but uh the guy who does know what that means is with us. Daniel, this is your website.
What does that last sentence or two mean? That this is kind of under control now? So let's just say here, so if you Google Bing Sydney, you might find this New York Times article by a journalist who chatted with basically a version of Chad GPT and tried to convince him to leave his wife and stuff like that. It was just pretty unhinged and just in general with a lot of users was behaving in some pretty erratic, crazy, and scary ways.
Yes. So what we're saying in our AI 2027 projection is that the company is sort of like hammer away at these bad behaviors and at least make them seemingly go away or make it less obviously bad over the next year or two.
I should mention, by the way, that it's not just back 2023, 2024. To my mild surprise, the AIs are still lying quite often.
There is just something I saw from this other organization called Transluce that does interpretability research and red teaming, where, yeah, it seems like even today's chatbot models will sometimes just pretend that they answered your question or completed your request, even though they didn't. And then if you ask them about it, they'll double down on it and try to sort of gaslight you.
So I've been using, I've been using, go ahead. I was just going to say, this is a huge glaring problem right now is that whatever honesty training that companies are doing is not working.
but we are projecting that because there's such a PR risk and such an obvious market incentive, the companies will hammer away at it and figure out ways to at least make the obvious failures, the obvious dishonesties and lies and so forth go away by the time it's 2027.'s 2027 but then that leaves the remaining question of like well has it actually become actually truly deeply honest or have you just sort of like trained it to be better at uh not lying in ways that are obvious and get caught you know so daniel let me let me ask you because and please feel free to just say okay's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. But the way I the way I look at what's happening is, you know, if you think of a giant tank underground, all of that compute is down there and we're just up above, you know, with a spigot and we're just opening it just a little bit at a time and say, no, no, of that but it's still down in the tank doing those things is is there any kind of does that make sense to you is that the way you could understand and and and help me look at it that way or differently um well the way that i would recommend thinking about it is modern AI systems are neural nets.
They are not traditional software programs. So if you were to sort of open them up and look inside them, it wouldn't look like a bunch of lines of code that were written by humans.
Right. Where, you know, the program sort of like follows those lines of code and strictly executes on the instructions written down in those lines of code.
Instead, they're sort of like a giant artificial brain with lots of connections or neurons, right? And rather than being designed by humans, they are trained. So they're put in some sort of training environment, and the system sort of automatically learns to score highly in that training environment.
So it's more like training a dog, you might say, or training a child than building something. And so that leads to, this is maybe getting back to what you're saying, it means that we don't have a way to actually check whether it's really learned the values that we wanted to learn or whether it's just, for example, literally lying to us and pretending to have those values.
Or a third alternative, it has sort of learned the values, but not quite in the way that we wanted. And we're only going to find out later.
There's all these different possibilities and we don't actually have the way to just open up the system and check. There are people working on building such a way.
So there's something called interpretability research, which is an exciting new field of technical research that's aimed at fixing this issue. But it's not right there.
Is this what Goodfire is? Goodfire? Goodfire. The startup, I think it came out last year, and it's, I don't know, they put a million dollars into it, and it's to help AI developers understand the inner workings of what's happening inside.
I don't know if you've heard of it. Sounds like it.
I haven't heard of it, but, yeah, there's a couple different startups and so like translucent group that i mentioned previously that was right uh showing the recent report of lying uh in ais yeah they're an example of this sort of startup that like is working on interpretability research um so so it's not like the situation is absolutely hopeless if there's enough progress made in interpretability research then it'll be a whole different different ballgame. And we'll be able to actually, you know, determine what goals and values a given AI system has and predict how it would behave in future scenarios.
But we're not there yet. This is this research is sort of very this field is very young and not ready for prime time.
What happens is you from my understanding, that the government a couple of years ago said to Silicon Valley, don't worry about developing any of this stuff. We're going to own it.
We're going to control it, which scares the life out of me.

But what happens if we don't get it and China gets it first? I mean, do you have any idea how real the race is? Are we way ahead, kind of ahead, behind? Where is this? Great question. So, first of all, I think that what happens whether we get there first or China gets there first is probably the same either way because we probably just lose control of it.
And if they get there first, they probably just lose control of it. However, however, however, I might be wrong.
You know, we might be wrong. It's possible that enough progress will be made on the technical alignment and control problems that whoever wins the race will actually stay in control of their super intelligent army.
And then we get into sort of concentration of power issues. Right.
So then it matters quite a lot who wins and and who they are and what they do with their army, right? And obviously, we would rather it be us than China, for many reasons, which I probably don't need to elaborate on. There's also the question of like, well, who among us exactly? Like, is it going to be a CEO? Which CEO? Or is it going to be, you know, some other, or is it the president? You know, I think ideally we should be trying to avoid a situation where any one man or any small group of men has, uh, that level of power.
Right. Um, if, if there is going to be an army of super intelligences, it should be, you know, like the United States army, loyal to the constitution, loyal to the American people rather than loyal to, you know, for example, the president or the CEO of the company that trained them.
Yeah, but do you know anybody that thinks like that? I mean, I'd be OK with that if it understood the, you know, the traditional values and principles that make us good people and, you know, just war theory, all that kind of stuff and trained on the Constitution.

I'd be okay with that i don't believe that it ever would be tight but i mean is anybody doing that is anybody working in that direction um i'm not sure which is what you mean can you say more it is is somebody working a, you know, a constitutionally centered, you know, Bill of Rights? You know, I'm going to first do no harm to humans. You know, is anybody doing that? Yeah, so sort of.
So you can. So Anthropic, which is one of these big three companies, maybe I shouldn't say big three, one of the major companies that's explicitly trying to build superintelligence soon and thinks they might succeed.
They have their constitution, which they train the AIs on. And I think you can go read it.
And it's a written document that describes the goals and principles that the AIs are supposed to have. Of course, we haven't made that much progress on the technical alignment problem, so their AIs don't actually have those goals and principles, or at least not fully.
But at least this is like a written document describing the intended goals and principles. And similarly, OpenAI has something called the model spec.
You can go Google this. They have it up on the website.
That is their version of this that describes the goals and principles that their AIs are supposed to follow, or at least they're publicly available AIs? They don't make any claims about whether this covers their internal AIs. Oh, jeez.
So, yeah. So you can go read those documents and you can get a sense of what goals and principles these companies are trying to train into their models, their AIs, that is, there's still the question of, well, who gets to write those documents? And who gets to say what those goals and principles are? And in fact, there's even the question of who gets to know what those goals and principles are, because apparently the company is under no obligation to actually tell the public about what goals and principles and values and agendas, etc., they're putting into their AI systems.

And in fact, there have been a few scandals relating to that, where a company basically gave their AIs a hidden agenda and instructed the AIs to not tell the users about it.

And then this blew up. So there's definitely an unfortunate point that's been set.
I think what I'd like to be in a world... AI-2027 is a predictive exercise.
It's not a normative exercise. So it is just our sort of modal prediction of what we think the future looks like, at least at the time that we wrote it.
Obviously, our views are constantly changing as we update based on new evidence. But it wasn't an attempt to recommend what people should do.
But if you do want to know what I recommend people should do, one of the things that I recommend is transparency. I think that there should be firm rules that the companies are required to follow that basically say you have to tell the public what goals, principles, etc.
You are trying to train into your AIs. You mean like an open AI? Right.
I mean, and again, none of this matters if you haven't solved the technical problem of figuring out better training methods that actually result in the AI having the goals and principles that you want. But if you do solve that problem and you do manage to get them to actually have those goals and principles, it becomes the most important question in the world of what are those goals and principles and who gets to decide.
Daniel, I'd love to have you back for a podcast we can spend a time without any commercials or anything else just talk about this and really dive deep into it can i ask you i've only got about 45 seconds so it has to be kind of a short answer but um i've taken the approach of i want to be in ai and using ai and i have my own kind of bright lines of don't go past this, because I think it's a tremendous tool at this point. Do you recommend that, or do you say stay away from it entirely? Oh, I recommend using it.
I think the best way to, you know, I think that the individual consumer decisions aren't going to change the outcome. And, you know, it's like getting plastic straws versus paper straws or whatever.
Like, on an individual level, you should just be learning about what's going on, learning about this technology, using it as much as you can. And not get sucked into it.
Yeah, as a political matter, like we need to have a sort of political conversation about are we actually going to do this, people? And if we're going to do this, how are we going to do this in a way that is safe and in a way that's, you know, actually democratic instead of the sort of mad free for all between CEOs and politicians? Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
I hope to have you on again. You're fascinating.
What you're doing is so important, Daniel. Daniel Cocotelo, he is a former OpenAI researcher, AI's future project.
You can find his work and please read it at ai-2027.com, ai-2027.com. Daniel, thank you so much.
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