Ep 167 | The Levi's Exec Who Sacrificed EVERYTHING to Stand Up for Kids | Jennifer Sey | The Glenn Beck Podcast

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As a child, child, today's guest was an elite gymnast.

She was considered a U.S.

hopeful for an Olympic gold medal when she was just 19 years old, a year after she won the national champion.

But beneath the surface, she was battered by injuries that still impact her today, both physical and emotional.

She had to make a tough decision, keep suffering, keep hurting herself for the chance of Olympic gold, or quit, put herself back together, and hope for redemption.

Well, she quit, and since exposed her abusive coaches and trainers in the Emmy-winning documentary, Athlete A.

She would not let them control her life, which seems to be a trend with her.

After a 23-year career at Levi Strauss and Company, she rose to the rank of brand president and had the chance to become the next CEO of Levi's.

But when Levi's went woke, she was faced with another decision: fall in line and continue climbing the ladder, or quit and keep her voice.

She quit.

She also gave up a million-dollar exit package, which would have required her to sign a non-disclosure agreement.

But she still remembers that sensation from her gymnastic years of flying through the air beyond everyone's reach and control.

And she wasn't going to let anyone take that from her.

Today's guest, on a personal note, also

led me to a destructive seven-figure decision in my own life because of a choice she made.

Doubt she knows it, but we'll talk about it.

Her latest memoir, Levi's Unbutton, The Woke Mob, Took My Job, But Gave Me My Voice, details the whole wild story in the chronicles of the secrets of woke capitalism.

Today's guest on the Glenn Beck podcast, Jennifer Say.

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Welcome, Jennifer.

Thanks, Ryan.

How are you?

I'm good.

Good.

Thank you for coming in.

Absolutely.

I've wanted to talk to you for a long time

for a couple of reasons.

I find you fascinating from the beginning of your life.

And you also,

one of I believe your decisions

caused a domino to fall in my personal life.

And

it was a seven-figure decision that I made, I think, because of something that you did.

We'll get into that later.

If this was your decision, in my mind, you were a villain.

But I can't wait to talk to you about it.

Let's start with your childhood, because I think if we don't understand your childhood, we don't really understand you.

So let's start there.

Sure.

I had a pretty unusual childhood.

I was an elite gymnast.

I started gymnastics at six years old, and by the time I was 10, I qualified for the elite level.

That's the level to get on the national team and travel around the world.

I was on the national team for eight years, national champion in 1986.

It is a brutal sport, an incredibly cruel training environment, absolutely physically, emotionally abusive, and as I think now the world knows, rife with sexual abuse as well.

Crazy.

And especially, and maybe not, I don't know, but

talking about the physical and mental, back in the 80s, we were going up against the Soviet Union.

So I don't know if it's changed at all, but we knew what they went through,

not thinking that we did that to our own people.

Has it changed at all?

Well,

you know, in 2016, the story of Larry Nasser broke, and he was the USA team gymnastics doctor for 30 years.

And he sexually abused hundreds, over 500 young athletes.

He went to prison for life in 2018.

So that sort of blew the door wide open on the story.

And I had written a book about the abuse in the sport in 2008 and was just, I mean, that was my first sort of taste of being canceled.

Kind of prepped me, I guess, for being canceled on a larger stage, if you will.

You know, I think we like to present an image in the United States that we were different and we did it because we loved it.

But, you know, I started in the 70s.

It was, it was bad.

I mean, coaches hit the kids.

Oh, my God.

The national team coach for the 80s, the Olympic coach in 1984, he was a sexual assaulter.

He was a rapist.

Oh, my gosh.

Of the team.

We don't have to get into it.

Yeah.

I mean, the one specific case that I know that he was actually banned from the sport for is one of my closest friends.

And I wrote about it in the book, and everybody said, how dare you, you know, tarnish this man's reputation.

You're a liar and a grifter.

all the same terms they always use, liar and grifter.

And this was before me, too.

So no one had to believe women.

We were just, you know, I mean, I was considered, you know, a failed ex-gymnast that was bitter and trying to get back and make money.

And to bring you back on track, it wasn't, you weren't a failed gymnast.

You chose to leave.

You were at the height.

And I assume your parents were there, obviously, from six, which is a huge commitment for a whole family, right yeah it really is and so then you get to the top you're ready to go to the olympics two years away from it uh

and you say i'm quitting i actually quit just a month before the olympic trials in 88 and i

really was so broken at that point that I could not continue.

I explained that because you had several things going on.

Yeah, I mean, I had a ton of injuries.

I had broken my femur at the World Championships in 1985,

which is bad.

Yeah, I mean having had four children, I will tell you it's worse than childbirth.

I wouldn't wish it on, you know, on anyone.

I came back from that nine months later to win the national championship.

So, you know, I wasn't letting my injuries heal, and I just kept getting one injury on top of the next.

And by 1988, I had been training on a broken ankle for two years.

I didn't know it was broken.

The doctor kept saying, there's nothing wrong, you're fine, take another cortisone shot.

But more than that, my mind was, I was just unraveling.

I had a bad eating disorder.

I was anorexic.

And I just lost the ability, frankly, to do the sport.

And the Germans, it was against the law for you to feed a Jew anything over, I think it was 600 calories a day just to keep them completely weak.

I never knew that.

You weren't allowed to eat over 400 calories.

Well, that was my self-imposed.

But to maintain the weight that I was asked to maintain, that's what was required.

And we were, you know, weighed twice a day and screamed at over the gym's loudspeaker.

You know, we don't coach fat gymnasts.

Jennifer gained a quarter of a pound.

I mean, the humiliation and the bullying,

it's pretty horrific.

And so I, yeah, I mean, I was on a a starvation diet, but so were all the members of my team.

We all were.

We were told, lose weight by tomorrow, by any means possible.

Wink, wink.

You know, that's you're not going to do that in a healthy way if you're already 98 pounds and 18 years old.

Oh, my gosh.

So, I was falling apart.

Yeah.

And I,

you know, I'd like to say it was an empowering decision to walk away, but it wasn't.

I mean, I left feeling ashamed and just like a complete failure.

And it took me years to rebuild myself.

Why is that?

Everybody, you know, you mentioned the parents, my parents had given up so much,

arguably too much, you know,

and

they were really upset with me.

I mean, I didn't talk with my mother for over a year after I walked away.

Everybody was disappointed and angry.

and felt they'd put so much into this career and I was disappointing them.

And I was like,

but I'm falling apart.

I mean, I was suicidal.

You tell them this, right?

You told them about,

you know,

not when it was happening.

And parents weren't really allowed in the gym.

Although my mom did work there periodically, I mean, I think she knew, but it was so normalized.

Do you know how you can be in this like microcosmic world and suddenly these completely horrific behaviors become normal?

Yeah, it's called America.

Yeah, yeah, we'll get to that.

And so, I think it just became normalized, and I even thought it was normal, but I was suffering.

And the problem is, and this is what abusers do:

if you weren't bad, I wouldn't have to treat you this way.

If you weren't fat, I wouldn't have to treat you.

And so, you internalize it, and then you feel ashamed for suffering.

And that's what was so hard to get over.

That took me two decades, really, was to not kind of internalize the shame and make it about me being a bad weak person.

So you leave there, you go to Stanford.

Tell me what you pursue, where do you go from here?

Well, when I went to college, I was exhausted.

You know, I was 19 and I felt like I was going to a retirement home.

And I get there and all the kids are

excited to be out on their own for the first time.

And I'm just tired.

And I'd lived on my own to train.

I'd traveled the world.

I was a good student.

You know, I wouldn't have gotten into Stanford, but I wasn't a very curious or, I had a lot of insecurity about my intellect.

School had not been a focus.

Mostly, I wanted to have fun, and I got, you know, I was pretty, I was rebellious, as one can be when they're young.

And it was a good period of time for me.

And I sort of learned what I was interested in academically, but I was still, I lacked confidence to actually pursue what I wanted to.

Can we stop there for a second just as an unrelated side note?

The

I don't think people realize the importance, if you're in a position of authority or people just look up to you, the importance of saying,

you're smart, you're good, you belong here, you should continue to question.

People, I think all of us have this

view of ourselves that we kind of hide that we're not worthy or we're not good enough or smart enough.

And when

somebody says to you, or you have to eventually prove it to yourself, that you are smart enough,

it's incredibly freeing, isn't it?

Yeah, I don't know if I would have listened, but yeah, no one, I mean, my dad did say it.

I always felt not smart enough and not good enough.

I don't think dads and moms count.

Yeah, you're right.

Probably somebody else needs to say it.

I did.

I had terrible imposter syndrome, as it's called.

I was waiting for them to throw me out of school.

And I probably had it well into my late 30s, you know.

I don't know where that comes from.

I don't think everybody has it.

I think a lot of people do it.

I think you're right.

I think a lot of women, type A women, have it.

That's for sure.

I know I had it.

I might be one of them, but I got to, because I had it real

for a very long time.

So, how did you?

Somebody said to me, you know,

you're smart enough to figure this stuff stuff out.

And he was a Yale professor.

And then

couple that with

being called everything under the sun and being a decent human being that doesn't just blow that off.

You actually go, wait a minute.

Right.

Am I that?

Do I do those things?

Once you've self-examined enough, which should never stop happening, but

you really know who you are, then you don't care.

And that's the most freeing of all.

So how old were you when that happened?

I was 32 when somebody said you're smart enough.

And I was probably

43.

When you believed it.

Yeah, and I was, and I didn't care anymore.

Because I had, like you, I had been attacked from...

every angle and even your allies that you thought were allies attack you from behind and you're you're like, wait, what is happening here?

Yeah.

That's about the age I was, 43.

I don't think I had that person to say that to me.

And in fact, as I was kind of coming up the ladder in corporate America, which, you know, we'll talk about, it was sort of the opposite.

You know, it was

because they you're, you know, you're this, that, and the other.

You're not this.

You'll never be a leader.

You know, you're a good number three and you can do the appointments and the, you know, the tactical stuff but you have no vision and it took me until I was probably in my early 40s to say

you're wrong yes I am good enough yes

yeah it's those are the people that changed the world it's it's amazing to me how many people I didn't understand

Frank Sinatra's New York New York until I actually lived there and then I was at the top of the heap

the if you can make it there you can make it anywhere what he means is there are thousands of people who will shive you in the back for that opportunity.

You know what I mean?

And that opportunity is usually not given.

You have to come in and just,

I don't care what anybody else says.

This is who I am, and this is what I'm going to do.

Those people change the world.

Yes, and this is what I'm capable of.

Yes.

I don't care what you say.

This is what I am capable of.

Corporate and political and everything is geared to make you feel small, I think.

Yeah, they do a pretty good job.

And I started in a hole, you know, with the training that I described.

And that's part of why I lay all of this out in my new book to say, if I can get there,

having started in this deep hole and didn't even, you know, start to climb out of it really until my mid-30s, then you can do it too.

Yes, yes.

It's hard.

It's hard work.

And it's not to say, I think you raise a really good point, that you don't listen to what other people have to say who are offering feedback in good faith but you get to decide what's true and what's not and what you need to work on

even if they say things about you that are not true if you can figure out if more than one is saying it Maybe there's something I'm doing that is causing people to feel that way.

So what is that?

And then you have just a series of

life is nothing but a series of disease.

You have to kind of integrate it and kind of, am I presenting myself this way?

Am I, is there, you know, something I need to adjust.

What is true?

Yeah, exactly.

But it takes great, you have to really, you have to have a lot of self-knowledge to be able to do that.

And it took me a long time.

Do you think you can do that without

severe setbacks of some sort, without your childhood, without what just happened at Levi's?

Can you get there

if your life is pretty charmed and there's no real resistance?

That's a good question.

I don't know the answer to it.

I've been wondering if anybody does.

I'm not sure.

I mean, I've certainly encountered lots of folks that are sort of the opposite that I think it's called Dunning-Kruger syndrome that like, you know, overestimate their abilities and their capability and certainly never listen to any feedback because they're so confident.

And

that's a problem also in the opposite direction.

I don't know if that's a function of a charmed life, though, or just a sort of innate personality disorder.

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So

you

leave school.

When do you get to Levi's?

So I left school in 92.

I graduated in 1992.

I didn't start Levi's until 1999.

So I had a couple, few jobs in between.

Okay.

And you joined Levi's

because you love the product.

You love the company.

I had worn the brand since I was a child.

Who hasn't?

You know, I mean, almost everyone has a pair of Levi's in their class.

Are you from

right coast or left coast?

I'm from Philadelphia.

Philadelphia.

My wife didn't grow up with Levi's.

It was so strange.

On the East Coast.

On the East Coast.

Buttonflies.

Yeah.

Where everybody wore them, where I grew up.

They really didn't cross into the East Coast until like 84, 85.

That's so strange.

Yeah.

They were a big sponsor for the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, and that was really when the distribution opened wide in the U.S.

Isn't that interesting?

It was very much a West Coast brand.

Okay, so you join as

about as low level as you can be, assistant to the assistant something.

Very low level.

And you, when did you become

chief marketing?

I became chief marketing officer in 2013, in the fall of 2013.

And, you know, it's interesting because I had risen the ladder and I was a vice president.

There's There's a lot of vice presidents.

People don't get that in corporate.

But when the CEO that is the current sitting CEO started in 2011, his name is Charles Berg, Chipberg,

he liked me a lot.

And it really kind of accelerated my career.

It also ended it, which we'll get to.

It was interesting, he didn't have this baggage.

You know, he hadn't known me since I was an assistant.

He took me as I was, as I presented myself.

You know, because if people have known you for 12, 13 years, they have all this data and they remember when you were 29 and maybe said something dumb.

The best thing kids can do at 18, I think, is move away from their hometown.

Oh, yeah.

Because you get a chance to be you,

not what everybody.

I'm still, my

sisters are still not impressed with their little stinky brother.

He's still the small one in the family.

So get away from it.

So it was, you know, it was a real gift.

You know, he he came in and he took me as I was in the moment, and

he appointed me as the CMO in 2013.

And I sat in that chair for eight years, which is really long for a CMO.

Most, I think the average tenure is 18 months, 20 months.

So then you were not the person that made the decision.

You may have been on the team that affected me.

I'd love to hear that.

I've always loved Levi's, always loved Levi's.

I'm a big fan of Cohn Mills.

Yeah.

Oh, you know, Cone.

Oh, yeah.

And

I

have always loved the product.

It is America.

It's not politics.

It's America.

Hard

working.

Best values.

Best values.

Yeah.

Best representation of what we think of as America.

Correct.

Levi's was the symbol of America.

Yep.

To the Soviet Union.

The people

would give their arm for a pair of 501s.

Did you know we had pictures in the hallways at the plaza as we called it when the wall came down, men atop the wall all wearing Levi's 501s.

Not product placement because some smart marketer would try to do that today, but because it was a symbol of freedom the world over.

So you ran Levi's lamp, ran a spot of

spots.

So keep going.

We are the uniform of the revolution.

thank you i'm glad uh

i started my own gene company uh ran for about 10 years and you know i had nothing i did it

out of

i i

love

levi's and if you are going to take that stand

I don't love another pair of jeans.

I personally will make it from the Cone Mills.

I will make the jeans that Levi's used to make.

And I did, it cost me a fortune.

But everything made in America.

And it was just because of that ad.

I was so angry at, how dare you

take that position when there's lots of us that don't have that position.

Yeah.

So I write about that campaign in the book.

It was not mine.

I was running e-commerce at the time.

I was the recipient as the commercial leader of that content and was like, what?

No,

I can't use this.

One, it's dark.

Like, forget the,

you know, politics or

cocktails.

People have fun in jeans.

What are we doing here?

You can't even see any product.

Our business was terrible at the time.

And this was like this desperate attempt to

appeal to younger consumers by capitalizing on their perceived activism.

It was terrible.

And I was like, I can't even use any of this.

And to his credit, the CEO did not like it either.

You know, he was in early days, and I think some stuff was already about to go.

And that was,

you know, why he put me in the role.

He was like, we got to get back to marketing the genes

in a relevant way with a focus on the product.

So you cannot be mad at me about that.

I'm not mad at anybody anymore.

Or him.

He didn't like it either.

I still don't buy Levi's because of that.

But

so

I want to because there's so many labels and none of them are ever defined.

And I'm convinced that so many people have so much more in common than they have.

I agree.

You say you're a progressive, and I I define progressive clearly as the 19 early 1900s.

Most people don't even know the origin of progressives.

But instead of using labels,

do you believe in the Bill of Rights?

Yes.

All of them.

All like the top 10.

Yes.

We have no issue.

Yeah.

I would say

I formerly identified as a lefty.

I would have said left of, left of center, used progressive in that place.

You know, given the last few years of my life and what we've all experienced,

you know, I wouldn't use those labels anymore.

And I wouldn't use any of the labels anymore because I still believe in the idea of progress

and, you know, making life better for the most possible people, including as many people as possible in the American dream.

I believe in this project.

I believe in free speech, which does not seem to be a progressive value right now.

So I would just shy away from using any of the labels.

Yeah,

I'm with you.

I don't know what conservative means anymore.

I just want to conserve the Bill of Rights and the amendments.

We want to change things.

Great.

Let's do it.

Let's just use the process.

Yeah, I think you have to do that.

And I think where we collectively, I mean, my beliefs sometimes fail is we don't include everybody in that Bill of Rights or in what it means to move forward and have opportunity.

And I think we make progress there.

That's progressive.

Progressive is not itself a bad progress.

I believe in progress.

Yeah, if you just think of progress as the root of that word and I think while we failed at times to include everybody in that dream, I think we continue to work hard to make that point and make progress.

And so I still believe in that.

Yeah, okay.

I don't think I've changed really.

I mean, we'll get into the story.

I've changed in that I reject the left-right binary.

I reject, you know,

red, blue, any of that.

I don't identify as blue.

I just believe in everything you just articulated.

That's why we have been separated, I think.

We lost the understanding of e pluribus unum

from many.

One,

what are those things

that we all believe in?

And they should be life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, you know, First Amendment, Second Amendment, Third Amendment.

We can argue about some of these and where they go, but generally speaking,

that was what brought us all together.

And that's where the argument kind of ends.

Everything out of free speech, we can argue about.

We can argue all day long about those things and still love each other and still be one.

Yeah, I feel like what is most concerning to me is, I think this is sort of where you're going.

What I've seen in the the last three years, let's say, is a vast majority of people do not believe in individual rights.

And we're completely fine giving them up and demonizing anyone who said, hey, wait a minute, what about the right to gather, the right to worship,

all of it?

You were a horrible person.

And there seems to be this lack of, you know, bill of

respect for our humanity and the individual, which is why we need individual rights.

It was like,

I don't, I worry that younger generations are willing to give that up.

Oh, I think studies show they are.

When I left Fox, one of the reasons I left Fox was Roger L.

said to me, Glenn, we all love the Constitution, because I was pounding on the Bill of Rights to the right.

And

he said, we all love the Constitution.

But there are things we have to do.

No.

No, that's what leads you to internment camps.

Yeah.

You know, sorry, Bill of Rights, Constitution.

It's outside of that, you're going to have to find a legal way to do or just not do what you're planning on doing.

Anyway, so

you were doing fine

and

trying to pull the company back out of its hole of the revolution.

Yeah, and we did it.

Did you?

Yeah.

Okay, good.

We put ourselves on a trajectory and I, you know, I'm proud.

I was a big part of that.

Was that sales or is that perception?

Both.

Okay.

Both.

We said

in the beginning, you know, 2013, I sort of look at that as the beginning of our kind of march.

We called it the 20-mile march, improve every year, bit by bit, top and bottom line.

We IPO'd in gosh, was it 2019 or 18?

I think it was 19.

So we went public.

I got to stand up on the thing.

It was a cool moment.

I definitely,

you know, was a huge part of that process in rebuilding the brand's image and connecting to more and more people around the world and driving sales.

Our women's business was through the roof.

It never had been before.

We set a goal for ourselves to hit a billion in sales for women's in five years.

We did it in two.

I mean, we were on fire.

And I was definitely kind of the public face of the brand as the chief marketing officer.

I was credited with a lot of it, not all of it, a lot of it.

Right.

And then COVID happened.

Yep.

And what happened?

From day one, probably even before day one of shutdowns, as I sort of saw it coming,

I was very outspoken

about

how wrong it was to close the public schools.

Now, I was alarmed about all of it, lockdowns, all of it.

I knew somewhere in my brain, this was controversial.

I hadn't feel it yet, but I knew it would be.

And I thought, I'll keep my advocacy to children because, to your point, can't we all agree on our kids?

Yes.

Isn't that one thing?

And if I can get people, I thought of myself as pretty logical and diplomatic.

You know, you learn that as a woman in corporate America.

I thought I can get people to see it through our children.

So I had feelings about all of it, lockdowns and everything, but I focused on kids and restrictions to kids from March 13th,

2020, which is when.

You were really early.

I was early.

Good for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And what were you going to say?

No, you know, and I was, you know,

what does that look like to be outspoken?

I was outspoken on social media.

I didn't have much of a following at the time.

But it sort of evolved and I was on local news shows by the fall of 2020.

I was writing op-eds.

No one reached out to me at the company until September of 2020.

So I had a six-month run where I was like, maybe no one noticed.

I'll just keep going.

I should mention my husband was also very outspoken, and that'll be part of the story in a bit.

And he was, you know,

he is a more aggressive communicator than I am.

He doesn't work for anyone.

So, you know, he went for it.

Good for him.

I would never tell him he can't do that, although I did get a lot of criticism for the things he said.

I said, he doesn't work here, but you know.

So, yeah, I was very outspoken from the very beginning.

And then, you know, I got that first call from the head of corporate communications.

You know, she sees her job, and it is her job to protect the company's reputation.

She said, we were all working virtually, so I get a phone call, which no one called anyone, you know, they just sent emails, and I was like, oh, gosh, this is it.

This is the one I've been waiting for.

And she said, people are noticing your Twitter.

And I I said, oh,

yeah.

When you speak, you speak on behalf of the company.

I said, I don't.

I don't have Levi's in my bio.

I'm a mom of four kids, public school children in San Francisco.

She said.

You never went on TV as anything Levi Strauss.

And at this point, I don't even think I'd been on.

But I always asked them explicitly, do not identify me as.

And usually they said, oh, we didn't even know you were.

Because I wasn't out there waving my arms around as the head of Levi.

You had to look for it.

Right.

She said,

I don't know.

She went on for a bit and I said, are you telling me I need to stop?

I wanted her to say yes, you know.

And she said, no, I can't do that.

And I don't know if she meant because, you know, we were peers and she wasn't my boss or because I actually have a right to say or a little bit of both.

And I said, okay, then I'm not going to.

You know, this is a a continuation of the advocacy I've done for children in sports because I became very outspoken about that after my experience in gymnastics.

And I wish as a child someone had stood up for me and these kids aren't going to do it.

And it sort of petered out because neither of us wanted to really keep talking.

And then this is the part that just lit me on fire.

Around that same time, all the private schools in San Francisco opened.

So she and all of my other peers were sending their kids back to school.

Mine were in public.

Mine are still in public.

And

the nerve of waving your arms around and talking about equality, because this is after the summer of 2020 and the murder of George Floyd and everybody's posting black squares and all you remember,

we're going to do our part in defeating racism.

And they're saying

to me,

you can't advocate for what we have.

We are wealthy white folks in San Francisco sending our kids to $60,000 a year private elementary schools.

I'm not crying poor here.

I chose to.

I chose to send my kids to public.

You cannot advocate for the 50,000 children in San Francisco public schools, 60% of whom are low-income, to have the same opportunity.

That just sort of lit me on fire.

It's the same thing with with

don't go out, no social, you can't, you have to social distance, you can't be in any crowds, but go ahead and protest.

That may actually be healthy for you.

Well, only one kind of protest.

Only one kind of protest, yeah.

Because my husband had led a few rallies and participated in a few anti-lockdown rallies, and those were all broken up by police.

Those were not exceptional.

Those were very dangerous.

Yeah, they're very dangerous.

Yeah, even though there were like six people there.

It was San Francisco after all.

So from that first call in September, it went on that way for another year and a half that I kept getting calls.

Different people were assigned to speak to me.

They had the unfortunate job of calling me and having me be rather intransigent and just kind of repeat the same things.

Head of HR, a board member.

My boss avoided the call.

He was a CEO.

He doesn't necessarily like having those, but eventually he did.

I mean, he called me a Trumper and an executive team meeting.

I mean, I don't know what that has to do with anything.

You voted for Elizabeth Warren.

In the primary.

In the primary.

Yeah, that's not a Trumper.

I had been a registered Democrat my entire life.

If anything, they criticized my views as too, you know, Warren, anti-business, you know.

But I was never told I couldn't say things.

I was never told not to post about any of, you know, my

political leanings until.

So it went on that way.

I'd get a call every two weeks.

I would say,

no, thank you.

I don't think I want to stop.

The head of legal

said, you might want to think about it when

you speak, you speak on behalf of the company.

And he said an interesting thing, the head of legal, when he called me, he said, okay, I understand, but make sure you get to him first.

And I was like, stopped in my tracks.

I didn't know what he meant.

And I realized, because at this point I was on some local news shows, he meant I needed to tell Chip, my boss,

if I was going to say something publicly because this woman in corporate communications was running to him and basically updating him on a weekly basis on my,

he wasn't on social media, he didn't know any of it.

And of course it was very slanted, you know, the way she was doing that.

But it went on that way for a while.

I chose to move my family to Denver in February of 21 so that my youngest children could be in school.

And at that point, you know, I posted about that on social media and I got a call from Fox

to go on the Ingram angle.

Yes.

You see where this is going.

Yeah.

I called my little old friend.

You can be on anything except anything on Fox.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

And I kind of knew that.

I mean, I didn't watch the show.

I didn't need to.

I knew I didn't watch watch any news at this point.

I was like obsessed with reading COVID data.

I called my little group of open schools moms, you know, across the country because at this point we were all kind of in it together.

Most of them came from the same political leanings I did.

And they said, you need to do it.

This is a chance.

We'd been trying to get ourselves in the mainstream.

I don't even know what that means.

No one would talk to us.

We were just billed as these like racist, horrible people who QAnon.

Oh, yeah, I got that.

Theorists, conspiracy theorists.

I had a hood in my closet.

I wanted to kill all the black children.

And grandmothers.

Those two.

And teachers.

Yeah.

All those.

Yeah.

So, you know, I'm a trained media professional.

They said, well, you're going to get dragged for it, but do it.

Do it for us.

You know, represent the open schools moms and go on the show.

So I did it in March of 21.

and that's when things started to get really bad for me at work.

I mean they were pretty bad before but they got really bad then.

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this is when

yes you got an email pretty soon guys this is this is astounding they wrote to you jen i've been who is it that's writing to you well i'm not going to tell you a name because i'm not going to be mean and but it was somebody in corporate communications and between hr and corporate communications, they were suggesting I needed to do an apology tour.

So this was meant to kindly prepare me for said apology tour.

Okay.

Thinking about this, and my sense is that there are people who just don't like what you're saying or where you said it.

It's in conflict, I'd say it's where you said it.

It's in conflict with a good, bad world we're living in.

Doesn't that

tell you everything right there that we shouldn't be living in a good bad world?

Where Fox is bad, MSNBC is good.

Was going on Fox and that show in particular an endorsement of what they stand for?

Are you one of us or one of them?

That's the kick in the pants, isn't it?

Oh my gosh.

Perhaps an overhapps, an oversimplification.

But that's what it feels like.

I think explaining why Fox is important.

I don't think you actually need to address each of those, but I'm guessing the following is pretty close to a list in an apology tour, right?

Why did you two choose Fox, Laura Ingram show?

My guess is you didn't choose them.

They were the only ones offering.

Correct.

Correct.

Do you endorse the views of Fox News and Laura Ingram?

Can you, I mean, think of that.

You're being held to an impossible.

If I went on MSNBC, do you endorse the views of whoever that is, Rachel Manna?

Of course not.

Of course not.

You're having a conversation.

Well, and I would go on those now, and I don't endorse anything they did for the last three years, but I'm fine to have a conversation.

Yes.

Are you anti-mask?

Do you want me to answer that?

Yeah.

I had been outspoken about masking of very young children, toddlers.

I did not speak about adult masking.

I am opposed to it.

I think it hinders communication.

But we had a policy and I didn't talk about it.

Right.

Are you anti-vax?

I was vaccinated in May of 2021.

Are you into conspiracy theories?

That's the best way.

I love this.

Are you into conspiracy theories?

Yeah, because you're conspiring against me.

So I think it's not a theory.

There's a difference between conspiracy theory and conspiracy fact.

Are you anti-union?

That's an amazing question.

Is advocating for school reopenings perpetrating systematic racism, mostly white moms?

Is there a conflict of interest between your role as Levi's brand president and what you're saying on your personal Twitter?

That's the only one

that I would push you on their behalf.

Sure.

You are the you're the are you the spokesperson?

I was the president.

So I got amidst all of this controversy internally, in October of 2020, I got promoted to brand president.

And that's probably next in line for CEO if you do a good job.

Right.

Yeah.

So, but you never went on.

You never identified.

Nobody ever identified you as that, right?

Can I just tell you, I still get, like, right, I had a book come out two weeks ago.

I still get people writing to me.

Now and say, I didn't even know you work for Levi's until your book, which is called Levi's Unbutton.

I I had no idea.

People didn't know.

I was just this mom saying we need to open the schools.

People really didn't, they didn't know.

So as a business person,

if the president of my company is saying things that are against me,

and I'd just like to hear your response, do I have any rights?

Because you're causing disruption with everybody who works here and

my, you know, my clientele.

I totally hear where you're coming from.

No, telling you.

I think it's a fair question.

It is a fair question.

I guess I would answer it in two ways.

The first is

the business was great.

So all the fears and, you know,

all the arm waving and hysteria around you're going to destroy our business and our reputation was false.

We were coming out of the COVID hole.

You know, our stores had been closed.

You know, our business had been down 70% in the spring and summer of 2020.

But we were emerging strong because of the strength of the brand, which is what I led.

So I think that's the first and most important point, is it was not impacting the business.

The second is,

if you're going to have a rule that your leaders can't do this, then you better make them sign something.

You better have some sort of policy in place because you had no issue with me being very outspoken on other issues and politics when they aligned.

So now, and

I promise you, if I was up screaming about keep all the schools closed or you're gonna kill all the teachers it would have been fine so now we're into viewpoint discrimination

that's a problem and then I will end by saying

I guess they have that right fine I chose this I said I decided for myself this was more important and if I and and you know what I I was right it was damaging horribly damaging so does that count

apparently not no but it also

if you were the uniform of the revolution, I would understand that.

But if you were trying to dig yourself out of that hole, it would have made people like me.

You leaving only reinforced what I believed about Levi's.

You hadn't made that impact on me.

And if they would have said, hey, we really disagree with her, but we believe in the right to disagree.

See, this is the thing.

I think it could have all been handled so easily.

And, you know, you mentioned if you've

lost the trust of employees, and certainly as a leader in a company, you know, you have to be aware of that.

It was a tiny, tiny percentage of very vocal employees.

It was not the entire organization.

And in fact, when I did that apology tour,

what was the apology tour?

So, you know, after I appeared on Ingram's show, show, the noise, I'll call it noise, got kind of louder and louder.

But again, I think it's a small minority of people and they're complaining and they're chit-chattering.

And

so

a friend came to me

who was on my team and said, we might want to do this.

You might want to do this.

And then HR got involved in corporate communications.

And I was like, you know, my husband said, you should refuse.

And I said, no, I'm just going to do it.

I'm not going to apologize.

I won't bend a knee, but I will explain myself.

I still had this sort of naive faith in my ability to explain myself and build a bridge.

So it took some time.

So you had a naive, not in your ability, in the ability of others being honest.

Bear.

So we had it in June.

That was the preparation for it.

I introduced myself.

I explained, you know, my background and history and,

you know, my advocacy for children in sport and how that was related to this.

The fact that two of my children are mixed race, which shouldn't matter, but I, you know, explained all of this.

And

you got torched for that, too, didn't you?

Not internally, but certainly

don't, you shouldn't bring those

like a shield, just using a shield for your actual racism.

Yes, that's what I think my children are.

Yeah.

A shield.

Yeah, exactly.

And so I did it, and there were three questions only, so not all those questions.

One was about, you know, the racism of school advocacy as a white mother.

Although our group of moms in the Bay Area was always diverse, so that was a lie perpetrated by the press saying it was just this movement of rich white yoga moms.

That was never true.

One was about my husband and his

voice,

which, you know, the short answer is he doesn't work here.

I support his right to speech and yours and yours, and he can say what he wants.

He has no constraints, nor should I, honestly, as an employee of this company.

Spouses can disagree.

How retrograde is that that you assume I agree with everything my husband says?

So we moved on.

And then the third was a comment that was just, thank you.

I understand better now.

And I got a couple of emails the next day, people saying, I really get it now.

I do.

I understand.

So I thought it was like a moment that we kind of, I was like,

let's get on with the work.

But it just didn't stop.

You know, we would have these town halls at work and people would submit.

They were all virtual questions about my racism and my conspiracy theorizing.

I was called anti-trans, which I don't even understand where that came from.

And it just went on and on.

And,

you know, he got tired of it.

Although, you know, then in the summer, he and I had dinner, my boss and I had dinner, and he said, You're a real candidate for CEO, you're one of two.

He'd never said that to me before.

It might have been bait to get me to stop, which I didn't do.

He then requested a background check.

He said it was standard operating procedure, which I believe to be true, but did one on my husband as well,

which included social media.

And by January, you know, reported back to me and said, you're going to have to leave.

Wow.

Not on my performance.

It was solely on

my advocacy, my social media presence.

And here, so, and then

he offered me severance.

A million dollars.

A million dollars.

That comes with a non-disclosure agreement.

That's standard.

How much is your silence worth?

I don't.

I was going to say more than that, but

I don't.

That's a lot of money.

You know, it would make a big difference in my life, certainly.

I certainly would be less nervous about the future.

I'm not so old.

I got to make a living.

I'm the breadwinner for our family.

But

everything I'd been fighting for for two years

beyond the children was free expression, free speech, the First Amendment.

And so taking hush money felt so wrong to me.

I just wouldn't have been able to look myself in the mirror.

Good for you.

So

I didn't, and I quit, and then the next day publicly published a piece on Barry Weiss's common sense sub-stack.

Why Barry Weiss?

That's a good question.

I just, you know, I followed her story closely.

I think there's a lot of parallels.

You know, she famously wrote, Twitter's not on the masthead of the New York Times, but I might get the quote a little wrong, but they're certainly kind of driving the policy and content.

And that was so comparable to my story.

You know, it was this Twitter mob

demanding my ousting and hashtag boycott Levi's and all of this.

And I just thought she was the right person.

I think she's amazing.

I think she's making a

there are a few people that are

stepping away from,

I don't know,

the play.

Well, I think outside of the binary, they're stepping outside of the binary, whether it's the political binary.

I mean, I think it's funny that she's always billed as this, like, right, all right.

I mean, she's not, she's not at all,

um, and so I, yeah, it just seemed, and she's been amazing and supportive supportive and wanted to tell the story.

And

I just felt like we were of like minds, you know.

So let's go into, because you've talked about it in your book, let's go into woke capitalism.

Sure.

What it is

and

the lie that you now think it is.

Yeah, in many ways, it's illustrated by that campaign that you hated.

Right?

I think there's a lot of things going on.

I think the first is it is corporate America's attempt to profit off of Gen Z activism, Gen Z and millennial activism, right?

They're trying to kind of, I know that's a cynical take, but it's factually correct.

That's part of what capitalism is,

to either create a need in you or to exploit a need you already have.

Right.

So, you know,

they're not even even exploiting a need, they're exploiting a value.

Which is kind of gross, I think.

So that's part of it.

I think there's this other piece, which is, you know, for many, many years, it was assumed that corporate leaders were Republicans, right?

They were greedy and greed was good.

And

now,

really, a lot of corporate leaders in some of the biggest industries are Democrats.

And I mean, it really is the party of elite.

And you have, you know, tech led by the left.

And, you know,

even Goldman Sachs is waving their arms around being woke.

I mean, it's banking for gosh.

I know.

It's like.

I say,

I used to hate things like Blade Runner, where, you know, the bad guys worked for the corporation, which was the government.

And I used to think,

come on.

So this is it.

They don't want to be the bad guy.

Right.

But

the left was right.

You were right.

You were right.

You got it right once.

Why'd you change?

We were wrong.

You were right.

Now we're like, wait a minute, the bad guys.

And they don't recognize it or they've just embraced it.

It's so bizarre.

It's very bizarre.

And so there's this real desire for these leaders to distance themselves from the, you know,

robber barons of the past,

from the greed is good of the past and to say no I'm a good person I'm a philanthropist I would have been in philanthropy or I'm an altruist I just happen to make billions of dollars which never happens on accident let's be clear they're just as greedy as the ones that came before them

and they have their children who they've sent to these very woke elementary schools and high schools and colleges and they want to impress them.

There's this new dynamic between parents and children's children.

I'm your friend, not your parent.

And

it also serves as a cover.

Although I do think, I believe in my heart of hearts, they do believe it about themselves.

Like it might, I think they come to believe it about themselves.

You have to.

You have to, or you recognize, or you're recognizing that

you are the evil you say you're trying to destroy.

There's a

cognitive dissonance.

Dissonance that is too big, I think, for you have to convince yourself you're a good person.

I think that's right.

And that's why it is quite convincing because they really believe it.

But at the end of the day, there is a real disconnect and dissonance because what does still matter most is making money.

And, you know,

I'll give you an example.

During COVID, Levi's, we laid off 15% of our workforce.

Perhaps required, right?

The business, it was tough out there.

It was hard to run a business.

Same time period, the CEO cashes in $43 million of stock.

Tell me it wasn't just about the money, because those layoffs bolstered the stock price.

The socially just thing would have been to find a way to keep people employed, possibly to demand that the world open up so that we could keep people employed.

So that's why I say I think they believe it, because deep down they also know they're going for the money and they don't want it to be exposed.

But I think you're

boy, that's true.

The thing that I think we're missing here on this conversation is the fact that

they've added, there's, there's, I don't know who has added, but there's another level to this

delusion, and that is some people know more than other people.

So if they're part of the decisions and we're all going woke,

we're better than these people.

So making money, yes, but we're making things so much better in the long run.

The ends justify the means.

But it's just, yeah, yes, I'm not arguing any of that.

I agree with that.

I think they also,

I believe that somewhere in their brains, they still kind of maybe know.

I'll give you another example.

When I wrote a formal proposal in October of 2020 saying, let's take a stand on this.

We've done taken stands on all sorts of things, as I'm sure you know.

Let's write an op-ed from Levi's in the local paper.

Like, we're a big business in this town.

We can make a difference and influence.

The response back was, we can't, we'll look bad.

Our kids are in private.

Wait, it'll make executives look bad because our kids go.

So it's like, it will reveal that we are really elitist.

I'm like, first of all, who doesn't think you are?

I mean, everybody knows you said you're, I'm the weirdo sending my kids to the public school.

No one's assuming you're not.

Right.

And why is it bad to say

my kids go to private?

I want the same thing for every child in San Francisco.

But it was sort of very revealing.

It's like being in the Carnegie organization and being against when he decided to build libraries in all of the poor towns all across America.

Right.

We can buy our own books.

Everybody knows.

Everybody knows you are so wealthy you can do this.

This is doing good for the people who who can't.

Yes, but it revealed the lie, which is ultimately it's all about reputation laundering, these stances.

You know, and I think

big time.

It's laundering of reputation so that, hey, don't look over here.

We're still taking all the money.

And it works so well that even when they lay off 15% of the workforce, they say they're doing it with empathy, and everybody's like, oh, thank you.

Thank you.

So,

how does

I think one of the reasons why they attack so viciously and relentlessly is because they know it's a house of cards.

That's right.

Right?

That's what I was going to say.

Yeah, so if there's someone that threatens to reveal the lie,

you've got to be destroyed.

You're apostate.

There's a like, come on, we're all in the, you know, you don't, they don't say it, but like, come on, you know, I know, you know, like, let's do this, and we get our big bonuses, and we've got to lay these people off so that we can get our bonuses so that the stock, you know, continues to go up.

It's like an unspoken pact.

And I think that my quitting and not accepting the money was so astonishing because no one gives up the money.

I know.

What lunatic gives up the money?

When I walked out, the last thing

Roger Ailes said to me when I walked out, they were offering, you know,

more than 9 million animals

in the world.

And

he said, you're not going to leave.

You're not going to leave.

He said, no one leaves here.

Exactly.

And he had always called me Jack Parr.

And I said,

hmm.

I would have thought you would have understood because one guy who did leave was Jack Parr.

And that was the first moment I saw the fear in his eyes of, this guy's leaving.

He's really leaving.

Yeah.

They don't get it.

No.

But because they've already sold their soul.

That's right.

And they can't even fathom or imagine that somebody else would do different.

And that makes them hate you even more.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

Like,

I keep thinking about what they're saying to themselves now.

They're like, see, we were right.

She is horse.

Yeah.

You know, she wasn't with us.

She wouldn't keep our secrets.

Right.

She didn't care most about the money first and foremost.

We say we care about the other stuff, but let's be honest, guys.

We all know what we really care about is the money.

She didn't.

She's evil.

She's a heretic.

She has to care.

So, how do we break this?

Because this is.

This is.

It's destroying our nation.

I mean,

the smartest things that the Uber-Uber left, those who hate everything America stands for,

the smartest thing they did was get into the boardroom.

Yeah.

You know, they got in and they infiltrated everything.

Once they got into the boardroom,

everything changed because

even I buy Apple products and I hate myself for it.

I really do.

What they're doing in China and the Uyghurs, it's inexcusable.

What they just did with turning off

the air, what do you call it?

You know, where you download to a friend just through the air.

Airdrop, airdrop.

airdrop

that's in china it's crazy evil it's crazy crazy evil but how do you break it how do you get out of it

because it's good everything yeah it's also proof that you know consumers don't really care right like levi's is thinking they're taking all these stances because that's gonna you know that's aligned with these young people's values they don't care they still buy nikes they still buy apple um

none of them care

They don't actually care.

They like to pretend that they do.

And it's true on the right as well.

You know, they burn their Nikes and then they go back to buying Nikes the next week.

They burn them because of Colin.

Well, a lot do.

Brad is doing fine.

One of the biggest things I think conservatives wrestle with is:

do you still have Disney Plus?

Do you still take your kids to Disneyland?

I mean, if you are really

morally

this is wrong,

but

what else do I do?

You can say, I don't want the old stuff.

I mean, I don't want the new stuff.

I just want the old stuff, but it's still feeding the same beast.

What do you think they do?

What are they doing?

I think they hold out as many times as they possibly can and then still take their kids to Disneyland, you know?

Yeah.

I mean, there's

like, I don't give up my Apple product because it would dramatically change my life.

Sneakers don't change my life.

Yeah, Levi's don't change my life.

At my age, with my kids' age, Disney doesn't change my life.

But if I had little kids,

it would be extraordinarily hard.

Yeah.

And I don't understand,

I mean, I do because I understand history.

People call this woke capitalism.

You call it woke capitalism.

And I like to.

It's a shortcut for me, yeah.

Okay.

Because it's actually fashion.

It is the definition of fashion.

It is, absolutely.

And I have written at length about this.

And the issue now,

and we've seen it writ large during COVID,

is corporations, either directly or indirectly, are

colluding with government to further their message.

It is grotesque.

And we've seen now with Twitter that it's direct

with the Twitter files being published, although we kind of knew before there's literally direct communication from government operatives to Twitter saying, take these people down.

They cannot say these things.

My own husband has been banned from Twitter for saying the following.

Are you ready?

The vaccines have known side effects: myocarditis, blood clots, and strokes.

That's a fact.

Just read the Pfizer documentation.

He then offered an opinion which said, That is not my idea of quote unquote safe, banished.

I think close to a year now.

Still not bad.

Whether or not he has a lawsuit that's active with

two other men

who were kicked off for similar reasons.

So you have direct communication, but I would argue that the alignment is so tight that there doesn't even need to be direct communication.

It just happens.

Now, with Levi's in particular, there are family connections

to Gavin Newsom.

There are family democratic office holders.

So there are direct connections.

But I don't even think there has to be a direct communication.

There's just, they're like this.

They're in lockstep.

And that is the definition of fascism.

I said at one point, got a lot of heat.

At one point, that

there would be a caliphate, and you would see

communist Marxists,

capitalists, and Islamicists all working together to forward this.

And they all said, oh, conspiracy theory, blah, blah, blah.

They'll never work together.

Are you a conspiracy theory?

Yeah, I know.

And I was very, very clear.

Working together doesn't mean they call each other.

That's right.

They're in lockstep.

That's right.

This is good for us.

That's right.

They're going that way.

Let's go.

Yes.

And I would add to that, the press is also in lockstep.

And I think, you know, what we're watching now with Sam Bankman-Fried and FTX is really a lustrefully.

Will he go to, will he pay at all for this?

I don't know.

And even today, when we see the fraud and what appears to be obvious criminality,

he's on stage at the New York Times Deal Book Summit last week with Andrew Rossork.

And people are saying, oh, he asked tough questions.

No, he didn't.

He giggled.

The guy got like a standing ovation or at least like a round of applause for his awsucks.

I didn't do fraud to anyone.

And, you know, the press's glowing articles about him for the last two years is why he avoided any scrutiny for so long.

He says it himself.

He says, we take these stances so people like us.

He said the quiet part out loud.

He said it.

to a Vox reporter who, by the way, he thought was in on the pact.

She's one of, like, I can say this to her.

Now, obviously, she doesn't have the kind of money he had, but he still thought of her in the same, I imagine

that's why he said it, right?

Last question, because we're way over time already.

I could talk with you.

Would you come back again?

This is not the last question, but would you come back again?

I would love it, yeah.

Um,

if I'm listening to this and I'm like, okay, I know, I know, I know,

I know.

What do we do?

I didn't answer that part.

What do we do?

Goodness.

I really am at a little bit of a loss, but I just will not stop talking about it.

I mean, I think

most people are followers, I think we've learned, and will do

whatever the group is doing.

They would rather stand with the group than stand apart and alone and do the right thing.

But that means we can bring them around.

That's the good news

is we can.

And if you have a few outspoken, brave people who are willing to keep saying it and make it make sense, and despite the opprobrium and name-calling, keep going,

it happens slowly and then all at once.

Now they don't, if they come over and say, yeah, this is wrong, the 65% of Americans who are quiet right now or confused, they don't really, they'll believe the next thing too.

But it doesn't matter.

We can bring them along.

You know, it happened to me in gymnastics.

It was, I was vile and hated, and suddenly, 10 years later, they pretended they always stood with me.

They didn't.

I got the emails, you know.

I also think that

companies, look, I'm the first real insider that's come forward, but other people are going to do it.

They're going to think twice about this.

There are, I have no doubt there are conversations happening.

How do we avoid this PR nightmare in the future?

Now, they might decide that the way they avoid it is make everybody sign something that says you won't be active on social media.

That would not be the outcome I would want.

But that's a real possibility.

I don't know.

I think your solution of

courage is

contagious.

And

for the 65%, you know, there's always 19 to 20%.

I think the far, far, I hate everything about America is less than 20%.

And it's not going to get, it's, it, well, I think it's less than, I think it's less than 10 on either side.

I hope you're right.

I hope you're right.

But 20% changes the world.

There's a tipping point.

And if

those who wake up

who truly value the Bill of Rights, and

because I don't, at this point, that's all I want to preserve for my kids.

That's all I want to preserve for my kids.

That's a lot.

Constitution, Bill of Rights, let them be free, okay?

If those who believe that,

even if we disagree on absolutely everything else,

would come together,

that's when this will happen because there's still this divide of trust.

I'm not sure if I trust you.

You wouldn't be on the show if I didn't know you believed in the Bill of Rights.

But that's what has to happen.

We have to come together with people that make us a little afraid of, I don't want to necessarily be on their side.

You know what I mean?

But do we join here?

Yeah.

And not that I don't want to be, I'm with you 100%.

No, I'm not afraid of.

Look, I have

met every sort of conservative in the last few months that I was told, you know, was evil.

And that is, I've found

to have amazing conversations and I have easily found the commonality

with no struggle whatsoever.

And that's what has to happen.

I've had the same thing with people who, you know, were, I thought, Marxist professors

that are fantastic.

We love each other.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess I feel like, you know what, you may be fine with this.

You know, for me, COVID is what brought it all to the fore, and you may have been fine with that.

But guess what?

You're next.

You're not going to agree with everything.

I guess if enough people

get canceled, then we can all live on canceled island and we can be the big voice that kind of pushes back.

It's going to be enough people one day.

It's kind of my theory on the border.

I say leave the border open.

Let everybody from Mexico come here.

Then at night, we'll go there.

We get the beaches.

It's a good strategy.

It just seems like the group will keep growing and growing and growing, and you can't cancel everybody.

And that we on Canceled Island find the commonality

because we're forced to, and we just become a bigger and bigger force over time.

I mean, look, even in China, they're protesting now.

You can push people too far.

It's possible.

What are you doing now?

What's next?

Well, I spent the summer writing this book.

I wrote it in like two months in a fever dream.

It's hard, isn't it?

It's really hard.

But I'd recommend doing it that way instead of dragging it out for five years.

Just get it done.

I'm making a documentary film about the impact to kids from the prolonged school closures.

Good for you.

And it's going well.

We're probably 80% filmed.

You probably won't get an Emmy for this one.

I probably won't.

That's okay.

You know what I will say is I do think that some folks are trying really hard to kind of distance themselves from having either been silent or advocated for closures.

I mean, even Fauci is, right?

He says I had nothing to do with it.

So we may find some brave streamer who wants to distance themselves and put the film on.

And then

I'm going to figure out what to do.

I actually have had corporate offers.

I'm a little hesitant right now, but one day.

Thank you.

Good for you.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you.

God bless.

Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.

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