How to Communicate with More Confidence and Master Your Next Conversation! With Jefferson Fisher

I love a great life-changing episode. I am so excited for this one today.
Did you know that how you communicate, how you argue, and how you handle the way others communicate and treat you can change every single part of your life? And today we have one of the top communication experts in the world who's sharing the secrets and simple tools you can apply to your life right now today

to help you improve your life at work, at home, and in your most important relationships. Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, a fifth-generation award-winning attorney, writer, and speaker.
His work has gained him millions of followers all over the world through short, simple, practical social media videos teaching people how to argue less and talk more. Whether it's handling a heated conversation, dealing with a difficult personality, or standing your ground with confidence, Jefferson helps you communicate during life's everyday arguments and conversations, and his brand new book called The Next Conversation, Argue Less, Talk More, is out now.
Jefferson says you can change everything about your life by what you say next. And you and I are in for a treat because Jefferson has stepped away from his busy legal practice.
He got on an airplane. He flew here to be with you and me today.

Whether you're listening for yourself or because someone that you love shared this episode with you, I want to welcome you to the Jamie Kern Lima Show podcast family. Remember, this episode is not just for you and me.
Please share this with every single person you know because it can change their life too. Before we jump into this episode, I'd be so grateful if you take two seconds to click on the follow or subscribe button on the app you're listening or watching the podcast on.
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And just thank

you so much. This is our show together and it truly means so much to me.
Jamie Kern Lima is her name.

Everybody needs Jamie Kern Lima in their life. Jamie Kern Lima.

Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima.
Jamie, you're so inspiring. Jamie Kern Lima.
Jefferson Fisher, welcome to the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Thank you so much for having me, Jamie.
I'm honored to be here. I'm so excited you're here.
Yeah. Wow.
What has happened with you, with your advice, with your videos, it has become a phenomenon. Thank you.
You're very sweet. Thank you.
Yeah, it's truly been a blessing. And right now, I'm just holding on.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm excited so much to dive into today.
Tens of millions of people watch your videos. From you in the seat of your car and with an iPhone.
Can you just talk about how this all happened for the person who maybe already watches you and loves you every day, which by the way, half of the people I know do, or maybe someone's brand new listening to you and me and discovering who you are for the first time. Give us a little insight on how this all happened and how you now are joined by tens of millions of friends every time you put out your words.
Yeah. It started never with the idea that this is where it would be.
It's just continually been one step after one step, door after another door. I was at a big defense firm, a big law firm, and then I, as a partner, I left because I want to start my own.
And when I did that, I thought, well, I ought to do some social media. And that was about three years ago.
And I started making videos talking about my law firm. I just, I was a personal injury attorney.
This is what I did. And I just sour about it, going, yeah, I'm just selling myself, and I didn't feel that great.
And I just kind of had this moment of, well, what do I really want to, what do I want my kids to see? If I'm not here anymore, is that really what I want to post? And so often people post things without thinking of the legacy that they're leaving, and that really hit me hard of like, who do I want my kids to see that I am and that I stood for? And I thought, well, what's one thing that I feel that I know that's my gift that I can share? And it was, oh, I can teach people how to communicate, how to handle argument, how to turn conflict into connection. And so I thought, well, no, I can't do that.
I need the right camera. I need the right lighting.
I need to look like a lawyer. And eventually, I just got over the excuses.
And I thought, well, I don't have an office because I just started my firm. I said, but I have my truck and I have my phone.
Let's go. So I made my first few videos, and then they just started to take off from there.
And I just built a wonderful, wonderful community of people that really care about communication. And I just believe that a better world begins with a better conversation.
I really do. You know, tell me if I read this right.
Didn't your first videos you posted, maybe these were about the law firm or legal advice, but didn't the first few videos you posted on Instagram get like zero views? Oh, nothing. They got zero.
I Googled, why do my videos have zero views? And I even, there was one where I hired a good friend to record a video for me, TikTok style, because that was the big thing at the time, like very fast, quick transitions. And I paid them to do it, and I posted it.
And you know how many people saw it, Jamie? How many? Zero. Nobody, nobody.
There are more people that watched me making a video with my kids, which I don't post my kids anymore and my family. Then they did for the video that I paid for.
And I thought something's not right. It's just, I'm not, I'm not being myself.
I'm not being authentic. And that was just what, that was a path that was open for me to say, no, you need to start sharing what's on your heart.
Yeah. Does it feel different in your body when you were posting stuff about legal advice? Obviously, you're a fifth generation award-winning attorney with a busy practice, all the things.
But did it feel different in your body when you're posting legal advice versus when you started talking about sort of adding value to other people's lives at home on how to communicate in ways that make their life better? Absolutely. It was really rewarding.
I still get the same feeling. I can't tell you, Jamie, how eye-opening it is for me, the fact that I make these videos in my car.
Nobody else is around. It's in a parking lot.
It's on the side of wherever. I make them in a gas station.
No budget. No budget.
And I think about them almost immediately before I make them. And then right after I make them, I post them.
So probably not wise, but I don't batch anything. So what they're seeing is really my thoughts in real time of what happened in my day, what's going on.
But the ability to help somebody in the comp, first when I started to get some followers, that was very new to me. I originally only had like 800 followers, which by the way, were all friends from school in law school.
That was more intimidating to post to real friends and people that you knew. You care about their opinion a whole lot more than if it's a whole bunch of strangers.
And so slowly, I just got really, really sweet comments of people saying, this is great. I'd love to hear about this.
And what are your thoughts on that? And just when you operate in a spirit of giving, a lot of good things happen. Do you feel like when you hold that phone up and you're saying you think about it right before and yet the content you're putting out is resonating with tens of millions of people? And like you said, there's a whole lot of people hiring big teams, producing content, all the things that doesn't resonate with people.
You're putting this phone up, video after video after video. People binge watch your videos, by the way.
But do you feel like you have an anointing? Do you feel like your faith or your calling is part of this just clear... It's a whole other level.
When people can... I don't want to call it channeling but when people can can can connect at this level it almost looks like they have a talent that's just part of their calling or what they're supposed to do on this earth how did do you feel that when you film a video like where that comes from and how it comes out of you in

a way that impacts so many people. Yeah.
Jamie, my parents, every night, my dad would sit on the edge of my bed, lean over and pray and say, dear God, give Jefferson wisdom and always be his friend. And that was the prayer for all of my life.
And I, in my heart, never will doubt the fact that what I have in communication is a gift. And it is my honor, my blessing to share that gift.
And so when I share it, I don't think of millions of followers. I think of one person.
And in many ways, that is my ability to be the light in their life that they needed, to just hear how to inject some grace and kindness into their world. And that is my gift to share.
That's why it's my joy, because it's truly my gift. It's not something that, you know, people say, oh, you learned it in law school, or it's because you're an attorney.
No, no, no. Law school teaches you how to read the law.
It doesn't teach you how to read people. And so many things that have happened to me are from a spirit of discernment that you only know when you feel it, and that's the wisdom that is given.
So you talk about your dad, and that's beautiful, by the way. Thank you for sharing that.
What I love right now is because I'm thinking about, you know, I'm thinking about everyone at home who maybe, you know, has done a particular career or they're doing it, but they're feeling like, okay, I'm really good at this or I can do this or I'm earning money for my family by doing this. And also, I feel like I have something inside of me

that still needs to be an offering to the world,

whether it's a book or putting your art out in the world

or hopping on social media in your car

and talking to an iPhone and sharing your gift

of teaching other people how to communicate.

But getting to where you're at now,

I want to share part of your story and your new book,

which is phenomenal, which I read cover to cover. Thank cover.
The next conversation, argue less, talk more. You talk about, you know, you're a fifth generation attorney.
And at one point, I think it was after law school, you're working in a law firm that your father is working in. All of us at some, you know, piece or part of us, most of us want our parents to be happy.
We want our parents to be proud of us. You decided that you weren't fulfilled in this law firm and you decided to leave and you had to tell your dad.
You had to tell your dad and that's hard and I think it was hard for him.

Can you share a little bit about that story? And then also, and I want to jump out of my chair about this part. I love then where it ended up today with you and him.
There's so much more coming up in this episode. You are not going to want to miss it.
But first, I wanted to share this with you. In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams.
You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth. When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life.
And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, How to Believe You Are Enough and Transform Your Life for You. If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, Worthy is for you.
In Worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self-love, unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness, overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome, achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more. Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be? Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth.
Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you.
It's time to find out with Worthy. Imagine what would you do if you fully believed in you.
My weekly free inspirational newsletter is packed with tips and tools to help you find out. It's called One-on-One with Jamie and it's delivered right to your inbox each Tuesday morning.
It's a love letter from me to you, from my soul to yours, and I hope it brings you the words and messages you need at just the right moment. Plus, when you're a part of my free inspirational newsletter community, you'll be the first to get behind-the-scenes content, inspirational messages, and be the first to learn about upcoming events and more.
It's the place to be, and I sure hope you'll join me there. So if you're not on the list yet, you can sign up for free at jamiekernlima.com or click the link in the show notes below.
And here's to becoming unstoppable together. And now more of this incredible conversation together.
You decided that you weren't fulfilled in this law firm and you decided to leave and you had to tell your dad. You had to tell your dad and that's hard.
And I think it was hard for him. Can you share a little bit about that story? And then also, and I want to jump out of my chair about this part.
I love then where it ended up today with you and him, but this is for everybody at home right now who's just like, oh, they just want to make everyone around them happy, but at the expense of them, maybe not being and doing and fulfilling who they feel they're called to be? Yeah. Yeah.
That's a good question. It was painful at the beginning.
Those are some of the most emotional, difficult conversations. He's been at that firm for over 35 years.
I was been there for maybe six. And I just knew in my heart of hearts, I just did not, I wasn't fulfilled.
I, like I said, I felt like I was running with a parachute. Like I just, something was always holding me back.
I wouldn't be able to express how I wanted to express. I couldn't really be creative and having the conversation with him of leaving the firm may not sound like a big deal to some people.
It was a really big deal. And he, I mean, almost begged me to stay.
I mean, because in some sense, it was me leaving him. And so it wasn't leaving the firm.
It was me leaving him. The ability to talk about cases every day.
I'm walking away from that. The things that were heart-wrenching and just felt like a kick in the gut, that it wasn't I was leaving the firm, I was leaving him.
And that was really hard to express. And he just would ask to help me save it.
Let's do something different, get more involved. And I just would be, I've done that.
I've tried. This is my path.
And that was really, really difficult. But the way things turn out.
How do you react when you're now on, you're doing videos on your cell phone in a truck? Yes. At first, was he like, or a car, was he first like, huh? No.
How did he react to that? He, I mean, both my parents did not really do social media at all at the time, and I didn't really do it either. Yeah.
Because at the time, Instagram was just take a picture of your latte. Yeah.
And swipe, put an X-pro filter on it, call it a day. Yeah.
And when they first saw it, they didn't really understand it. Because at first, I was just doing it for the law firm.
He's like, oh, OK, well, you do that. But for a while he's been.
It's not that he didn't want to talk with me. We have a very close relationship.
Same with my mom. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful people.
It was that it was just a sore topic for a while. And when the law firm started doing well and things were starting to roll, and I'll just never forget.
Because you started your own. I started my own law firm.
And all I had, I went from having a corner office, two paralegals, an assistant, a whole team, to just by myself at a coffee shop with my laptop next to somebody else who was in college, you know, and I just served coffee shops or borrowed friends' back offices. And when I got my own office and I was starting to do well, and he called me and he said, well, I got a question for you.
I said, what's that, Dad? He said, you still got room for the old man? And I said, what? He said, yeah, if you want to. I mean, you can say no if you want, but I'd love to practice.
Son, I don't know how long I'm going to practice, but for however long I got, I want to do it with you. And I mean, I just boo-hooed,

of course. It makes me want to cry.
I haven't met him yet. Yeah.
You'd love him. And I just, yeah, I couldn't have been any better.
It meant the world to me. And we get to talk every day and we get to talk about cases and it's just, it's great.
It's wonderful. I wouldn't trade for for anything.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's amazing. So amazing.
I think so many of us are scared to do that because we don't want to let our parents down or we don't want all of that. And this is like so beautiful, you know? And then he comes back around and joins you.
And he's never been happier. I mean, he's just, he's so happy to practice law.
It's just awesome. It you thought wasn't going to work out, when something turns around and shines even brighter, you can't put that into words.
Yeah, yeah. You know, you have so many tips, tools, tactical takeaways, and that people can apply to every part of their life.
And I love when you talk about things that you know as a lawyer, like how do you know when someone is lying? Yeah. And what do you do when they're lying? And how do you respond? And how do you handle arguments? How do you handle narcissists? How do you handle...
I mean, we're going to dive so deep. I'm so excited about all this.
But I want to ask you, with what's happening with the offering you're putting out in the world of teaching people how to communicate, I'm curious for you, Jefferson, what are some of the traits that you admire most in people who you feel are the best communicators in the world? Probably number one would be warmth. People that you just, you don't even have to talk to them.
You can sit in a room and just feel it. And maybe it's their energy, maybe their vibe, maybe it's their spirit.
Just whatever it is, the frequency that they're putting out into the world calms you. And I find that to be very, it makes you attracted to them because you like that warmth and that comfort that when you talk to them, you feel just a little bit calmer.
And so people who communicate very well are not only good at being clear and direct and assertive, but they're also emotionally intelligent enough to know when to slow down. Because things are so busy and we ramp up, but they know that good communication happens in the smallest of words, the shortest of sentences.
When someone allows their warmth to just be, do you feel like it's easier to listen to them and be around them? Cause I think a lot of people, especially women, um, feel like, Oh, I've got it. You know, if I'm, if I show my warmth, I'm weak and I need to, you know, all the things.
And, um, and I just think that's kind of powerful and insightful that you just shared is that when you think of the best communicators that there's a warmth. Yeah.
Well, I think you'd agree. You never want to hide your light.
And I mean, there's so many opportunities that we have to do that. And it's leaning into it.
If people feel like, well, I, I, I'm going to be weak if I'm perceived this way, just, if you go by the, how you listen to music, things that are very fast affect you, makes your mind race. When somebody's talking really, really quickly and you can't hardly understand what they're saying and they're getting ramped up and ramped up, that kind of gets you and your anxiety up.
But people who slow down, they show more control. It's not the opposite.
They show more control, more confidence. When you're adding distance to your communication, you are showing them that you are comfortable exactly where you are.
And that also shines onto them to show that where you are is okay too. One thing that you seem so masterful at that I feel like I need to work on more is this idea of pausing and of giving space.
And this is going to be a big thing for everyone listening because when we dive into all the different topics that are going to affect our lives in so many different ways when we start applying the tools that you share, there's this consistent theme of pause and of space. And I'll never forget the first time I ever gave even a keynote speech.
It was like a room of – he was like 10,000 people. All this stuff was for Brendan Burchard event actually.
And it was the first time outside of It Cosmetics. And it was a long story, but he's like, I have an opening.
And I'm like, I'm in. And it was this hour spot.
And it was the most phenomenal hour. But every time people cheered or even stood up and cheered or any of the things, because it was really fun.
And I was just like pouring into them. I didn't know how to pause.
The second they started clapping, I didn't know. And I just kept talking.
And I remember afterwards he came up to me and he says, first of all, like he said, he said a million great things, which I'm so grateful for. And then he's like, you need to learn how to pause and let the audience like have their moment.
Like they're excited. They're cheering for you.
They're into it. They're so excited that you overcame this huge obstacle.
And I was like, huh, I didn't know how to let the pause happen. And what I love is you guys, you give so many examples in your book of ways the pause is so powerful, but just really high level.
This is for everyone listening. I want you to think right now as you're hearing me and Jefferson talk about this.
when you're talking with someone, do you ever just pause and let there be space? And maybe you're looking at them in the eye, or do you start to feel uncomfortable and want to fill the space with words? Can you talk about the power, the power of the pause, and how right now, everyone at home, different ways you can use just pausing and your communication and how it actually, literally helps change your life. Yeah.
Yeah. The pausing is the most powerful tool you can use in communication because it gives you time to choose things.
It gives you time to choose, is this worth my words? Is this worth my attention? It also gives you a chance to calm your own emotions, to regulate your emotions. It gives you time to think.
And when you're able to pause in conversation, it allows you to show control. If you were to ask me, Jamie, if you said, Jefferson, how was your day? And I immediately said, good.
I mean, my day was fine. It was good.
That tells you one thing. If you ask me again, Jefferson, how was your day? And I immediately said, good.
I mean, my day was fine. It was good.
It was good. That tells you one thing.
If you ask me again, Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, it was good. It was good.
Very different connotation. What you're telling in the first one is, I didn't really listen to your question.
The second pause is kind of clarifying of, I listened to you. When somebody even gives you one second, two seconds of a pause after a question, it tells you that they're thinking about it.
And it's allowing you to show that you're actually acknowledging, taking it in before you just spit out a response right away. Because we're such in a world of immediacy, of texting back right away, saying that, having that clap back as soon as you

get it out. And where the real power in communication is, is slowing things down.
It's the pause, because it allows the other people, like, just like you said, when you're speaking to people, maybe they clap or they cheer, it's allowing them to contribute to the conversation. I just had a big aha moment

like a big aha moment

because at our core

we all just want to be seen and understood and also feel connection and belonging. And so many people feel so lonely right now.
And often, you know, social media can be great in so many ways, but we're lonelier than ever. And one tip you just gave, I think this is so big, and I want to say it in the way where it really hit me, is that example you gave.
Because we all have this happen every day, right? How are you? We go and grab a coffee, and we might ask the person ringing us up, how are you? Or they might ask us, how are you? And we just default, oh, I'm great, thanks, how are you? You know, whatever. Boom, boom.
And we don't even know what we're saying. It's just like autopilot.
And yet we're all lonely and we all want more connection. And we're like, why is my husband and I sitting here scrolling our phone? And I don't even know how he is.
I told him how I was, but I don't think he cared. Like whatever our scenario is, or, you know, moms at school drop off or whatever whatever it might be that example you just gave is so powerful and it's so relatable because you know when someone says how are you and and you're like oh i'm good thanks there's pretty much no connection happening right and when someone says how are you and you just pause and you're like you think about it and then you say your answer maybe it's like I'm good or yeah whatever it is that pause instantly tells another person I see you yes you matter to me I'm giving you my energy and consideration because I care to connect with you over the question you asked me yeah Yeah, you got it.
Holy moly. That is like instant hack to connection with humans.
And we're all, so many of us are just feeling like we're missing that in our lives more and more. I have heard you use the pause in so many different ways.
And this is the first time I'm having this big aha over there. Because right now, every person listening, every person watching us, right now, today, they can walk into a coffee shop.
They can look at the person sitting next to them in the room right now. They can, whatever, next time they're interacting with people and someone asks them this or they ask someone else, add in it.
Yes. Because then it almost catches someone off guard too.

And they realize you're connecting with them.

Right.

You're connecting with them.

Yes.

When you're able to ask that question.

I'm going to do this with my husband tonight.

You should do it.

I'm doing it tonight.

You should.

I'm doing it tonight.

And I'm going to do it with my kids actually.

I'm going to do it with my kids too.

Well, it's so, what we fall into is instead of living in it, we're just pressing the buttons. Yes.
You know, the barista asks, how's your day? Oh, it's good. I'm fine.
How are you? Oh, I'm good. I'm fine.
We're just pressing buttons. Yes.
We're not really living in it. Let me tell you the one trick to making sure that it does work with your kids and with your husband.
We want the trick. We want the trick.
This is what I live by, and I teach this to every one of my clients, and it is this. Let your breath be the first word that you say.
So where your first word would be of going, no, I'm good, I'm good. You put a breath in its place.
And so when you have the mindset of a breath being the word, I mean, it's because you're saying something, even in that pause and that breath and that silence, it might be the absence of words. It's not the absence of communication.
So if you ask me how my day was and I go, I conveyed something right there. That's a sigh.
I'm sending the message to you without words. It was heavy.
It was a load. It was a lot.
I mean, and when you have that pause, it's the invitation to connect. So good.
So good. Oh my gosh.
Okay. I'm already excited for the way everyone is going to share how this impacts their life.
Yes. Like the DMs are going to come in, comments, the messages, and we're just getting started.
But that one tool, that one tool, I'm just thinking about, and the ripple effect of that. Yeah.
Because as a society, we're really close to bankrupt when it comes to like true just connection. It really is.
And the thing with communication of what it makes it so important, on top of just the pause and the ability to take a moment and express how you really feel, is that what you say for the vast majority of your life is who you are. That's how people will experience you.
That's how people will experience Jamie. That's how people will experience Jefferson.
It's not by really what you do, though they might see that act of kindness. It's what you say.
When you say, I like that person, you just met them. You say, I like that person.
They were nice. What you really mean is they said nice things.
Somebody's rude and you don't like them. Yeah, that person's rude.
It just means that what you heard is you didn't like. It's not a rude to you.
So for the vast majority, it is your words is what describes who you are to those people. That's what's going to describe and evaluate your legacy.
That's the ripple effect. So you being a fifth-generation attorney, your wife, Sierra, is an attorney.
Yes. And so I would love for all those people at home who are either in partnerships or friendships where arguing happens.
Yeah. Jefferson Fisher, you and your wife being attorneys, being phenomenal communicators, having sometimes your job depending on it.
And then you, of course, becoming now one of the most well-known communicators in the world. Tens of millions of people going to you for this.
how do you and your wife argue and like let us in on all the secrets

that we all need to be doing differently. Are you ready for the tea? Yes.
Okay. There's so much more coming up in this episode.
You are not going to want to miss it. But first, I wanted to share this with you.
In life, you don't soar to the level of your hopes and dreams. You stay stuck at the level of your self-worth.
When you build your self-worth, you change your entire life. And that's exactly why I wrote my new book, Worthy, How to Believe You Are Enough and Transform Your Life for You.
If you have some self-doubt to destroy and a destiny to fulfill, worthy is for you. In worthy, you'll learn proven tools and simple steps that bring life-changing results, like how to get unstuck from the things holding you back, build unshakable self-love, unlearn the lies that lead to self-doubt and embrace the truths that wake up worthiness.
Overcome limiting beliefs and imposter syndrome. Achieve your hopes and dreams by believing you are worthy of them and so much more.
Are you ready to unleash your greatness and step into the person you were born to be. Imagine a life with zero self-doubt and unshakable self-worth.
Get your copy of Worthy plus some amazing thank you bonus gifts for you at worthybook.com or the link in the show notes below. Imagine what you'd do if you fully believed in you.
It's time to find out with Worthy. Imagine what would you do if you fully believed in you.
My weekly free inspirational newsletter is packed with tips and tools to help you find out. It's called

One-on-One with Jamie, and it's delivered right to your inbox each Tuesday morning. It's a love letter from me to you, from my soul to yours, and I hope it brings you the words and messages you need at just the right moment.
Plus, when you're a part of my free inspirational newsletter community, you'll be the first to get behind-the-scenes content, inspirational messages, and be the first to learn about upcoming events and more. It's the place to be, and I sure hope you'll join me there.
So if you're not on the list yet, you can sign up for free at jamiekernlima.com or click the link in the show notes below. And here's to becoming unstoppable together.
And now more of this incredible conversation together. How do you and your wife argue? Yeah.
And like, let us in on all the secrets that we all need to be doing differently. Are you ready for the tea? Yes.
Okay, my wife, no, I'm kidding. She's a fantastic communicator.
Law really teaches you to be concise. And what I like to compare it is I'm a lot slower.
She operates a lot faster. But often we have to communicate at the same level.
You have two kids and you're raising a family and everything. It's a lot.
Our arguments are very short. And the reason because of that is we operate on this very quick to apologize, very quick to resolve.
If you want your argument to be shorter with your spouse, with your partner, with your friend, be quick to apologize. So often it is the continual circular arguments that just tend to roll on forever because you can't really sleep.
When you're having that bad argument with your spouse or a significant other, it keeps you up at night. It begins to live and seep and now you're having to put on an act for your kids when really you're irritated at each other and you want to lash out, being quick to apologize and quick to resolve, that makes our arguments very short because we're fast to say, that's not what I meant.
Or, you know, I can see how that's how you would take it. I didn't mean it that way.
I didn't intend it that way. Whenever you can push out your intentions rather than pushing how they should react, that's a big difference.
What I mean by that is here I am taking the accountability of I could have done better communicating that versus why would you behave that way? Why would you even behave that way when I said this? Who reacts like that? So when you take the responsibility for being understood, radical things can change. Even if you think they're completely at fault, they don't get it, they should do different, they should do better, but that's going to go for an argument forever because I've tried that.
So you're saying that you're not saying they're right by apologizing or by, you know, you're saying, oh, wait, maybe I could have communicated that differently. You're doing your part to try to make the argument shorter.
There are times when, and again, I'm not pointing to where people are in toxic relationships, people with narcissistic tendencies. Yes, that can be circular and terrible.
I'm not saying you should just apologize to apologize. What I'm communicating is whenever there is a friction in the conversation, we make sure that it doesn't get heated.
In other words, it doesn't combust and turn into flame. It is trying to draw it out by unraveling the knot and going, okay, this is how I understood it.
What did you hear? Okay, that's not what I intended at all. I'm sorry.
What I meant to say was X, Y, and Z. So the quicker you can get to that, the better.
That's so good. Okay, so this is what I intended.
What did you hear? Yes. And then, oh, okay, well, that's not what I intended.
Here's this. Right.
You know, I want to just share something that I think is so profound. Because every time I was growing up, when I knew my parents were arguing, or this or that, they didn't argue much.
My parents actually just didn't talk about hard things when they did argue. And I knew that they were.
I would go in and I would say, is everything okay? And I'm like, absolutely. And they cover it up.
And we think we want to protect our kids and hide it.

But if the argument's getting drug out and we're actually hiding it, I read something where children are learning to not trust their own intuition. Because they're saying, is everything OK? We're like, oh, it's fine.
It's fine. They know it's not.
Yeah, they can sense it. They sense it.
And we're saying, don't trust your senses or your senses are off or something like that. And so the idea of the stronger you become at communicating and learning how to respond in an argument with someone you love in a way that diffuses it just has so many ripple effects beyond just that particular thing.
So I love that. I want to make sure I tell you, right along with that, this happened sometime last year with my son, who is now seven.
And I got home, long day, suit and tie, and I'm starting to make their lunches for tomorrow. Son asked me, you know, how your day was, Dad? And I said, I was fine, buddy.
It was good. It was a good day.
How was your day? And I'm continuing to make the sandwich. And he doesn't bring it up again.
We go on about dinner and bedtime, bath, everything. I'm sitting on his bed for prayers and song.
And first thing he asked was, why'd you tell me it was a good day when it wasn't? I kid you not, that is

exactly what he said. I said, what did you mean? He said, you didn't say it like it was good.
You said it like you were sad. And I mean, it was such a just slap in the face of, I'm never going to say it was just good again.
I need to, he needs to hear that from me, even when the day's been bad. He needs to hear when it's been tough.
I mean, that's, and it was just this moment of how dare I try to just gloss over the fact of that he needs to know that I have hard days too. And that hit me just like a ton of bricks.
So yeah, no, no hiding from him. Yeah.
Wow. And you know, you say, I think this is something really really powerful because a lot of people don't they don't want to get in an argument a lot of people don't even want to have a conversation especially if there's like anything hard or difficult or challenging or you know any of it and you say that when you align your conversations or your arguments with your personal values, that you're sort of aligned then ahead of time with your goals before you go into it.
Can you explain to us what that means and how we all do it right now, today, in our lives? So values are intrinsic to everybody. What I value is going to be different than what you value.
They might be similar, but we all take it different ways based on how we've been raised. What values do is guide you like a North Star when you don't have any kind of compass.
What I do, what I encourage is that people have conversational values because when you do, decisions become easier. Take it, for example, with a company.
You made your Fortune 500 companies like your company. There are ones that have values.
And when you have a value, decisions become easier because you don't have to question it. You follow the value.
If my value is I only work with clients who align with me, it comes easy.

I don't have to make that decision.

I know that that's who I'm going to work with.

Same thing in your conversation.

So one of my values that I hold dearly is where there is kindness, I will use it.

Where there is room for kindness, I will use it.

It doesn't matter what they did.

It doesn't matter what they caused. The question is, is there room for kindness?

And that comes from my mama. I'd complain about something that someone happened at school, expecting her to, you know, buy into the tea.
Let's get some, you know, how dare they kind of thing. And what my mom would say is, well, were you kind? I can hear it in my head.
She'd say, well, were you kind? And I would always go,

I mean, I'm probably not, Mom. And she'd go, well, I think you should be kind.
I mean, that was just her thing. And that became such a value of me of when I'm talking on the phone to an opposing attorney and he says something snide, I know that he's trying to jab me.
Is there room for kindness? I'll use it. And I'll say something like, well, you know what? I know you really care for your clients.
I know you really care for your clients, Matt. And that really shows.
Any way that I can just share a little bit of kindness, I don't have to worry about the next zinger. I don't have to worry about what can I say to impress them.
Is there room for kindness? And that's what I'll do. But I have others.
I feel like that works to your advantage. Every time.
Even with a snide attorney on the call. Yes, because.
They don't mistake it for weakness. Because how they interpret it is going to be how they interpret it.
I'm the one that has to be left with it. I'm the one that has to walk away and go home to my family.
And if I'm carrying that conversation that I had with that opposing attorney home, why? They don't deserve that. That's not what that conversation was for.
That's not why they said it. And so having these values, another that I love to use is if I can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse.
If things burn down and don't work out with other people, that's okay. They'll always tell me where I'm at.
They always know where to find me. So when you have these ideas in your head of what my value is.
Explain that a little bit more. If I can't be a bridge, be a lighthouse.
Yeah. So let's say you and I have been friends and we have a big fallout.
Despite what I say, and I'm really trying to mend this relationship, and it's just not happening. You've written me off.
It's not working out. The bridge is really burned.
Well, that's okay. I'm still going to be a lighthouse.
Maybe I'll see you in five years. Maybe I'll see you in 15 years when life has happened to both of us.
But I'm not going to change the light that I'm going to put out into the world just because of our bridge was burned. Or the light you wish that other person.
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
And so when you have these values and every one of us has a value and that's how you handle your conversations because it allows you to, I don't have to worry about decisions. The values make the decisions for me.
That's so good. I love that too, because I've had to do this.
I wish I've never had to do this. I had to do this even recently where a friend just, just like completely wasn't the friend I thought they were.
And I think parts of our humanness want to, you know, tell them all the reasons they're wrong or this or that or all the things. And it's like, I think when you can just be a lighthouse and go, okay, so it's a different friendship than I thought.
And I'm just going to pray for them and love on them. And I feel like what happens then is you meet the vibration also of attracting great friends.
Yes. You know, when you...
And that's your gift. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, that's where it comes back.
Whenever you send that zinger, that clap back, that sense of, oh man, I just put together the perfect paragraph that's going to punch them in the mouth. Yeah.
It's got, it always has a bad aftertaste. Yeah.
Always. Yeah.
It may not be right within that moment, it, but it'll probably be the next morning. You know, definitely be a week from now.
And I mean, the longer it goes, the harder it is to come back together. I even think about that when I see comments online, someone just like, it can feel like a temporary relief or something when you just get that hateful comment out or attack someone.
But then you're meeting the vibration of that in your life. So it just comes all around you in different areas.
So that's so beautiful. Be the lighthouse, even if you're not the bridge.
That's right. Even if you're not the bridge.
What role does self-worth play in communication with others and with ourself? Self-worth matters of who you're listening to. It's the question of who are you listening to

when it's, say, I have the confidence or I can be assertive or I shouldn't have said that. It is the line of who are you listening to in your life that's driving your own value.
So much of what we put in self-value is a lie often. It's doubt.
We sow a lot of doubt into ourselves. And that can grow over time to where when you get that one comment from a troll, all of a sudden you feel like they're telling you the truth.
And really all they're doing is speaking to your doubts. And self-worth is something that you can grow into.
And I don't want to say lean into, it's something you step into. Because when you can learn how to communicate effectively to stand up for yourself, just a little bit, you have that self-worth.
When you can tell somebody no, and it works, you feel excited about it. You feel worthy.
You feel like, hey, I have that within myself of good job. Okay, now you feel a little bit better.
And then you continue to grow in that step by step by step. But self-worth is very much tied to your communication because, again, how you communicate is who you are and how you feel about yourself.
And how you communicate with yourself, right? Oh, yeah. Yes.
No doubt. And because it's, remember, who are you listening to? Am I listening to my own doubts? People who are negative, say negative things.
And people who are positive, say positive things. It's as simple as that.
When you start to doubt yourself, it's because you're listening to your doubts. You're not listening to the positivity.
When you feel anxious, you're listening to the anxiety-inducing thoughts of what-ifs, of what-ifs, rather than the comfort in knowing, I knows, I knows, I knows. These are such powerful tools that we can apply to our life right now.
Right. And what I love is they're free.
They're free. Yeah.
And they're not always easy, but we can get get in the habit of them and we can apply them right now. So thank you for these tools.
Remember, this episode is not just for you and me. Please share this with every single person you know, because it can change their life too.
Make sure to pick up Jefferson's new book, The Next Conversation. Argue Less, Talk More.
And check out his brand new Jefferson Fisher School of Communication. We'll link it in the show notes.
And if you love today's episode too, well, my only ask is you please click on the follow or subscribe button for the show on the app that you're listening or watching it on. Then give it a five-star review and then share this episode with everyone you believe in.
Share it with another person in your life who could benefit from it, post it, and share it with others online or in your community who just might need the words and tools and lessons in this episode today. You never know whose life you're meant to change today by sharing this episode.
Just thank you so much for joining me. And before you go, I wanted to share some words with you that couldn't be more true.
You, right now, exactly as you are, are enough and fully worthy. You're worthy of your greatest hopes, your wildest dreams, and all the unconditional love in the world.
It's an honor to welcome you to each episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. And here, I hope you'll come as you are and heal where you need.
Blossom what you choose. Journey toward your calling and stay as long as you like because you belong here.
You are worthy. You are loved.
You are love. And I love you.
And I cannot wait to join you on the next episode of the Jamie Kern Lima Show. Do you struggle with negative self-talk? Living with a constant mental narrative that you're not good enough is exhausting.
I know because I spent most of my life in that habit. The words you say to yourself about yourself are so powerful.
And when you learn to take control over your self-talk, it's life-changing. And I wanted to give you a free resource that I created for you if this is something that could benefit your life.
It's called Five Ways to Overcome Negative Self-Talk and Build Self-Love. And it's a free how-to guide to overcome that negative self-talk to build confidence and develop unshakable self-love so that you can dream big and keep going in the pursuit of your goals.
Don't let self-sabotaging thoughts hinder your progress any longer. It's time to rewrite the script of your life, one filled with self-love, resilience, and unwavering belief.
If you're ready to take charge of your narrative, build unwavering confidence, and empower yourself to persevere on the path to your dreams, you can grab your free guide to stop overthinking and learn to trust yourself at jamiekernlima.com slash resources or click the link in the show notes below. Who you spend time around is so important as energy is contagious and so is self-belief.
And I'd love to hang out with you even more, especially if you could use an extra dose of inspiration, which is exactly why I've created my free weekly newsletter that's also a love letter to you delivered straight to your inbox from me. If you haven't signed up to make sure that you get it each week, just go to jamiekernlima.com to make sure you're on the list and you'll get your one-on-one with Jamie weekly newsletter and get ready to believe in you.
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