Charles Duhigg: Asking Questions That Build Instant Connection

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Speaker 2 If you've ever wondered how the great communicators become great communicators, well, you're in for a treat on this episode. Today, we're hearing from Charles Duhigg.

Speaker 2 This guy is not only a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, he is an amazing author and somebody I am actually geeking over to talk to about is somebody who loves communication because he has a book out that is called Super Communicators.

Speaker 2 And I just can't wait to get into it and talk about it. He's a dad of two, I believe.
And I know you're over in California. Charles, thanks for coming on.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 This is such a treat. Yeah, it has been so cool.
As soon as your book came out,

Speaker 2 I immediately ran and got it because I just don't find that there's that many resources on communication.

Speaker 2 I want to make sure that I hit this question that I've it stuck out with me in the book and is that the most persuasive people don't argue their point.

Speaker 2 They ask great questions. Absolutely.
And if I could write that down and put it on my mirror every day,

Speaker 2 that's exactly what I would do.

Speaker 2 Can you tell us more about what that means to you and how people can, people listening to it right now, how can they apply it in their everyday from the kitchen to the living room to their workplace, asking great questions?

Speaker 2 No,

Speaker 2 what's really interesting is, you know, when researchers started sort of identifying these folks that we call consistent super communicators, because we're all super communicators at one time or another,

Speaker 2 but some people can essentially kind of connect with anyone. The number one behavior that they found was that these people tended to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person.

Speaker 2 And what's interesting though, is, and we all know people like this, some of the questions, you don't even register as questions. They'll say things like, you know, oh, what'd you think about that?

Speaker 2 Or, you know, what'd you say next? It's these little essentially invitations to share with them.

Speaker 2 But then some of the questions that they are very comfortable asking are what are known as deep questions.

Speaker 2 And a deep question is something that asks someone about their values or their beliefs or their experiences. And that can sound kind of intimidating, right?

Speaker 2 When I'm like, oh, you should ask people about their values or their beliefs or their experiences.

Speaker 2 Except that it's as simple as, you know, if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, you know, oh, what hospital do you work at?

Speaker 2 You could ask, oh, what made you decide to go to medical school?

Speaker 2 Right. That second question, that invites the person to tell you something real, right?

Speaker 2 That invites them to tell you sort of what they believe in or what their experiences were as a kid that sort of led them to where they are.

Speaker 2 That's a really powerful question.

Speaker 2 And so I think that the most persuasive people, they recognize the best communicators, super communicators recognize asking these deep questions is just as easy as asking shallow questions.

Speaker 2 But when I ask a deep question, I'm inviting you to have a real conversation with me. And when you know that I'm listening to you, you start to listen to me.
And then we're persuading each other.

Speaker 2 Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2 What I hear is this everyday small talk that people feel, most people feel anxious about. I don't want to ask a question.

Speaker 2 I don't want to be too much you can have surface questions and deep questions and the great communicators have a wonderful skill at making the deep questions sound just like the shallow ones that's exactly where you're not having to you know feel like what is your deepest desire tell me about your childhood like these things that right oh I don't I don't know you

Speaker 2 is that is that the way you feel about it like if you're gonna

Speaker 2 conversation and instead of this what else question mark versus what else like you finding ways of sounding them making them sound like a statement so I'm trying to give the listener right now some tips on that that's definitely half of it right is that half of it is I can ask you a deep question that sounds like a shallow question so and oftentimes that's just a matter of asking you here's here's the big tip is instead of asking you about the facts of your life

Speaker 2 Ask you a question that would prompt you to talk about how you feel about your life. So instead of just asking, you know, where do you live? Oh, I live in the heights.

Speaker 2 Oh, what do you like about the heights? Right. Or, you know,

Speaker 2 you can do it with almost anything. It's very, very easy.
Now, the thing is that that's a great way to start a conversation.

Speaker 2 And there's a guy named Nick Epley at the University of Chicago who's basically studied deep questions his whole career.

Speaker 2 I think that once you ask an easy to ask deep question, it's actually much easier and much more welcome to ask. a deep question that seems like a deep question.
Right.

Speaker 2 If I ask you, you know, what do you like about the heights?

Speaker 2 And you say, well, the sense of community is amazing up there oh yeah wait like what like tell me about it like what's the community well you know my wife passed away a year ago and my neighbors have been there for me then suddenly it's totally okay for me to say oh i'm so sorry like tell me about your wife what was she like

Speaker 2 right what research shows is that we don't have a resistance to deep questions we have a resistance to deep questions that move a little bit too quickly But you can actually move fast if you ramp up the intimacy.

Speaker 2 And so if I ask you a question, and this is the other thing that super communicators do, and I think you talk about this in your own work a lot, that they look for opportunities where people are trying to tell them what they want to talk about.

Speaker 2 Right. So let's take someone passing away.
This is the most, my, my own, my father passed away about seven years ago. And I went back to work.
I was working at the New York Times at that point.

Speaker 2 I went back to work and I had this, this experience that I think everyone has had, which is, you know, people say, oh, where were you last week? And you say, oh, I was at my dad's funeral.

Speaker 2 And they all say the same thing. They all say, oh, my condolences.
I'm so sorry. And then they move on to whatever you were talking about before, right? Because like, they don't know what to say.

Speaker 2 But anyone who's been through that experience knows that if somebody were to say, like, oh, I'm so sorry, like, tell me what your dad was like.

Speaker 2 What was, because that's all you've been thinking about for the last two weeks, right? As you've been thinking about your dad and the funeral and the eulogies and how much they touched you.

Speaker 2 And so I think what super communicators do is they look for people to offer them invitations and then they accept those invitations.

Speaker 2 Even if accepting that invitation means I'm going to ask you something that maybe is not something that I normally would ask, right?

Speaker 2 Maybe I sit down next to you in a, in a meeting and you tell me about you fact that you went to your kid's graduation that weekend. And instead of just saying, oh, congratulations, that's awesome.

Speaker 2 Let's get down to the agenda. I say, oh, congratulations, that's awesome.
What did it feel like to watch your kid walk across that stage? Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's when suddenly we're connecting with each other. I love that.
Not asking about facts, ask about how they feel. That's something that's immediately applicable that somebody could apply

Speaker 2 right now. And I, what I see too is in my line as in work as an attorney, in cross-examination, when you're asking somebody questions, a lot of the time you can tell

Speaker 2 what they're wanting to talk about based on how they end their first sentence.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 When they end their answer, they might end their answer just a little bit short because they are trying to invite you to let them in just a little bit more, to talk just a little bit more.

Speaker 2 So it's very telling how they end their answer. They might end it on like a cliffhanger or somebody might say, you know, yeah, and so

Speaker 2 they might end it with a, yeah, so.

Speaker 2 you know, that's and they just, they, they've kind of hit a dead end. They're not sure how to get there.
And so they're inviting you to kind of help me walk me through that door. I think that's huge.

Speaker 2 And I think that's such a great insight that like just by paying attention to the, to the cadence of how they speak, they're telling us stuff.

Speaker 2 Because the truth of the matter is, sometimes when we're communicating with someone, we assume that they are communicating by accident, right?

Speaker 2 Oh, you mentioned, you mentioned your kids' graduation, but you don't want to talk about your kids' graduation. You mentioned that you were at a funeral, but you don't want to talk about the funeral.

Speaker 2 That's not how communication works. We mention things that we want to talk about, right? Exactly.

Speaker 2 We avoid things that we don't want to talk about. So, if somebody has brought something up with you, that shouldn't be like, oh, no, I kind of touched the third rail there.

Speaker 2 That should be, oh, this person, like, they want me to ask about that. That's so funny.
Yeah. So, my

Speaker 2 grandfather would have this habit of when we'd be like at a restaurant all together,

Speaker 2 and he'd ask you, you know, Jefferson, is that a,

Speaker 2 how's that fish? fish?

Speaker 2 And I'd say, well, it's, it's great. And it was an invitation for me to say, would you like a bite? Like,

Speaker 2 that was always his like go-to. If he would say, yeah, how's that, how's that chicken right there? And it's his way of saying, like, that looks good.
And I invite me to go, would you like a bite?

Speaker 2 He goes, yeah, I think I would.

Speaker 2 Sounds like a super communicator. I think you knew what he walked around in the conversation.
That's the invitation right there is what you're hearing. I love that.

Speaker 2 The takeaway is instead of trying to push your point, even in the small, little everyday conversations, you find ways to ask more questions. Super communicators ask much more

Speaker 2 than the average person on questions that they can put into somebody else's lives.

Speaker 2 The takeaway is invest in the questions.

Speaker 2 That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 Exactly it. I love that.
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Speaker 2 Terms apply.

Speaker 2 In your book, Super Communicators, which is fantastic, I encourage everybody right now while you're listening to this episode, just go run and buy it.

Speaker 2 It's wonderful. Thank you.
You talk about three types of conversations that people could be in, really at any given time. And that to me, when I read it, was going, oh, that's really cool.

Speaker 2 And kind of breaking it up into, I'm very visual.

Speaker 2 of like anytime you're in a conversation, you have like a yellow wire, a blue wire, and a you know a green wire, and you never really know which one to pull.

Speaker 2 And what you do so well is you synthesize these and to say, hey, really, anytime you're in a conversation, you're in one of these three boxes. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 And this actually started a couple of years ago before I wrote the book because I got into this bad habit with my wife, which is I'd come home from work and I'd start complaining about my day.

Speaker 2 You know, like my boss doesn't appreciate me and my coworkers don't realize what a genius I am.

Speaker 2 And she would give me this really good advice. She would say, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and get to know each other a little bit better?

Speaker 2 And instead of being able to to hear what she was saying, I would get more upset, right? Which I think every couple has experiences this.

Speaker 2 And so I went to researchers and I was like, look, I'm a professional communicator. Why do I keep falling into this same trap?

Speaker 2 Like, why do, why do I try and solve her problems when she just wants me to listen and empathize? Why does the exact opposite occur?

Speaker 2 And they said, well, here's what we figured out just actually in the last decade with neural imaging is that When you're in a discussion, you think you know what that discussion is about.

Speaker 2 And you usually think it's about one thing. You think it's about where to go on vacation next year for this subject.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And they said, what's actually true is that if we could see inside your head, what we would see is that that discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations.

Speaker 2 Right. And

Speaker 2 all these conversations are all happening during one discussion and they tend to fall into one of three buckets, as you pointed out.

Speaker 2 So in general, our conversations are either practical conversations where we're making plans or solving problems together.

Speaker 2 Or they're emotional conversations where I'm telling you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize.

Speaker 2 Or there's social conversations about how we relate to each other and

Speaker 2 how we relate to society and the identities that are important to us. And they said, all three of those kinds of conversations are all equally legitimate.

Speaker 2 And all three of them will probably happen during a discussion if it goes on long enough.

Speaker 2 But the key is if you and the person you're talking to aren't having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, you will not feel connected to each other.

Speaker 2 In fact, you'll have trouble actually hearing what the other person is saying. And so that's what was happening with me and my wife, right? I was having an emotional conversation.

Speaker 2 She was having a practical conversation. They're both equally legitimate.
But because they weren't the same kind of conversation at the same moment, we couldn't hear each other. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's where somebody says, you're not listening to me.

Speaker 2 That's exactly right. Right.
Right. And you're like, I can repeat back exactly what you just said.
But the truth is you're not actually listening. You think you're listening.

Speaker 2 But because you're not in the same mindset as this other person, because you're not hearing that, oh, this is an emotional conversation. This isn't a practical conversation.

Speaker 2 You're missing the important parts of what they're saying yeah i find that in those moments it's um the person is not looking for reciprocal words they're looking for reciprocal feeling if you're having that emotional conversation when you're complaining about your day you're looking for a feeling from that other person the the acknowledgement words don't do it words don't give it it's the the emotion the feeling that you go okay now we've connected the your white wire with my white wire and now i now we're connected Well, and what's amazing is that our words can actually disagree with us and we'll still feel connected.

Speaker 2 So like, let's say we're talking about politics and we're both voting for different people, but you say like, you know, the thing that's most important to me is security because my own family has been threatened by crime in my area.

Speaker 2 Now, I could say like, oh, but crime's down across the nation, right?

Speaker 2 You're making an emotional statement. I could say, respond with something practical.
But if I say, you know, I totally, I feel that fear. I know what that fear is like.

Speaker 2 Now, my solution is, I think, a little bit different from your solution,

Speaker 2 but I think that we have this thing in common. Even though our words will disagree with each other, we will feel more connected.

Speaker 2 There's actually something that has evolved in our brain, social reciprocity, that makes it impossible for us not to feel a little bit more connected when we're having the same kind of conversation at the same moment.

Speaker 2 That's wild. Yeah, it's really fun.
Isn't it fun? Like the... that we can be excited about communication like this.
We're part of the weirdos, man.

Speaker 2 And yet at the same time, everyone communicates all day long, right? This is the number, this is the most important skill you can have.

Speaker 2 As an attorney, you could be the, I'm, you tell me, but I imagine you could be the finest legal mind on the planet. And if you can't communicate, it doesn't matter.
No.

Speaker 2 It doesn't matter a lick. No, it doesn't matter a lick.

Speaker 2 I mean, and it, um, it's so funny that you might have these brilliant minds, but then the clients don't want to work with them because they they don't feel like there's that service, like they can talk, but this person's yet brilliant.

Speaker 2 And there's such a difference between your trial litigators and the people that are, let's say, more transactional.

Speaker 2 And so it's just so funny to hear that and experience that. But yeah, communication is a wonderful, wonderful thing.
Now, I know that you also,

Speaker 2 you've done so much research. In fact, have a whole separate book on just habits, the power of habits.

Speaker 2 And of course, everybody's looking for better habits.

Speaker 2 What would you say to the person listening right now is one habit that they can work towards in their life right now to simply improve their communication?

Speaker 2 So asking those deep questions is a great habit, right? That's one thing. And it literally is a habit.
If you just kind of practice it, you get it, you start doing it without thinking about it.

Speaker 2 But there's another habit that's really, really useful, which is proving that you are listening.

Speaker 2 So one of the things that the research tells us, and I'm sure you know this as an attorney, is that oftentimes simply listening is not enough because the other person, they have this sneaking suspicion, particularly if this is a tough conversation, if this is something we disagree about, they have this sneaking suspicion, you're not actually listening.

Speaker 2 You're just pretending to listen and you're waiting your turn to speak, right? Like,

Speaker 2 you're just staying silent until I shut up for a minute and then you're going to jump in.

Speaker 2 So one of the things that we found is really important, particularly in what are known as conflict conversations, right?

Speaker 2 Where we just, we might disagree with each other or we might be talking about something that's hard to talk about, like politics or religion.

Speaker 2 In those conversations, it's really, really powerful to prove that we're listening. And actually, the proving part is a habit.

Speaker 2 So there's a technique for it known as looping for understanding that they teach basically in every law school now. And it has these three parts.

Speaker 2 Part one is to ask a question, preferably a deep question, right?

Speaker 2 Part two, step two is when the person has answered that question, try and repeat back in your own words what you heard them say.

Speaker 2 And you've actually already done this a couple of times in this conversation, right?

Speaker 2 What I hear you saying is, and I'm going to prove to you, not only am, because the goal here is not mimicry, I'm going to prove to you that not only am I paying attention, I'm actually processing what you're thinking, right?

Speaker 2 Or what you're saying.

Speaker 2 I can put it into different words and maybe even give you a little insight on it that you didn't have when you said it. And most of us do step one and step two intuitively.

Speaker 2 Step three is the one I always forget. And this is where the habit comes in, is once I repeat back what I heard you say, ask if I got it right.
Did I hear you correctly?

Speaker 2 Because when we do that, what we're actually doing is we're asking for the other person permission to acknowledge that we were listening.

Speaker 2 And if I believe you are listening to me, I become much, much more likely to listen to you in return.

Speaker 2 So when I ask you permission to acknowledge that I was listening and you say, yeah, I think you heard what I was saying, you suddenly become much more likely to listen to me, even on a subconscious level.

Speaker 2 And that looping for understanding, that's entirely a habit. Yes,

Speaker 2 I could not agree more.

Speaker 2 Listen, I care about you. If you're listening to this podcast, I care about you.

Speaker 2 And because I care about you as somebody who also loves communication and conversations, I know that you can't just have all these conversations in your head.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I can give you advice, but sometimes you need more. You need to talk to somebody else who's trained trained in helping guide you through this.
And that's where therapy comes in.

Speaker 2 I go to therapy, it's incredibly helpful. And a sponsor of this podcast is BetterHelp.
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Speaker 2 All you have to do is fill out a quick questionnaire and they match you with a therapist. And if it doesn't work out with somebody else, they can easily switch you to somebody new.

Speaker 2 But the point is, you're getting it out and diving deeper for better answers because conversations come with questions.

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Speaker 2 To put it in a nutshell, how I interpret this is that for anybody listening, number one, if you can, ask a question instead of the response.

Speaker 2 So anytime somebody's sharing something with you, we make a mistake when we all of a sudden start talking about ourselves.

Speaker 2 Like Charles was saying, you're just kind of waiting to be like, no, actually, you know what? I did the other day.

Speaker 2 And instead of actually listening to somebody, you can cure all that simply by asking one question. One that I like to ask is asking them, what was your favorite part?

Speaker 2 Because everybody has a favorite part. I do this with my kids, and I'm sure you have the same thing with yours.

Speaker 2 Day's done. And if I say, how was your day? It was good.
Life's in good. Yeah.
Yeah. What'd you learn? I don't know.

Speaker 2 Nothing.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 But if I ask, what was your favorite part? They almost always come up with something that was like, ah, this is the thing that is my favorite part.

Speaker 2 And if you can just ask that one question, it makes them feel like you're actually what they said has value instead of trying to step on their story or step on what they're trying to share because you're really trying to be relatable.

Speaker 2 But in some sense, you're taking that. away.
So asking just one question and then almost repeating back what they said to make you feel that connection is just a brilliant strategy.

Speaker 2 And it works every time. I mean, I've seen it every time.
And what I love about that question is what's your favorite part? Is that what you're actually asking is, how do you feel about your day?

Speaker 2 What was the part of your day that made you feel good? What was the part of your day that didn't make you feel good? Right.

Speaker 2 That's why I think that question is so powerful. With my kids, I try and, I have a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old.

Speaker 2 You know, when I ask them about their friends, I ask them questions like, what do you admire about Jasper? Like, it seems like you like him.

Speaker 2 Right. Because at that moment, what I'm actually actually asking them is I'm asking them, how do you feel about friendship? How do you feel about this particular guy?

Speaker 2 How do you, what are the things you look for you value in another person? And we like being asked questions like that, right? We really do. We really do.
Anytime we get to,

Speaker 2 I think, talk about the emotion behind the words, we're really searching for that.

Speaker 2 That's exactly. I hear you on that a thousand percent.
Because when you say what's your favorite part, it's not something practical. It's not saying what knowledge did you you receive.

Speaker 2 It's a being a favorite or having a favorite, it's a feeling.

Speaker 2 That's exactly right. This is what I gravitated towards the most.
Maya Angelou has this quote that

Speaker 2 research has borne out that nobody will remember what you say, but they will remember

Speaker 2 how you made them feel.

Speaker 2 And it's exactly right. Now, I did want to address something that you had said before, because you're exactly right.
Asking these questions can be really powerful. And

Speaker 2 there are times when

Speaker 2 sharing about ourselves can feel really selfish, right? If somebody says, you know, oh, you know,

Speaker 2 if we ask, where'd you go on vacation? And they say, oh, I went to, you know, I went to Spain.

Speaker 2 And then you realize pretty quickly they only ask because they want to tell you about their vacation and the fancy yacht that they stayed on, right? Exactly, yeah. That's not great.

Speaker 2 But there are times when looping for understanding, proving we're listening, does call on us to share something about ourselves.

Speaker 2 But the takeaway here is when you share something about yourself, it should be because you want to connect with the other person.

Speaker 2 You want to show them that you want to connect as opposed to, I want to steal the spotlight from you. Yes.

Speaker 2 And so oftentimes what we'll see is, you know, someone will say, oh, you know, my aunt passed away last week. And someone will say, I know exactly what that's like.

Speaker 2 My dog died seven years ago and I still think about him every day. Like that's not, I'm not trying to share to connect with you.
I'm trying to steal the spotlight from you and

Speaker 2 aim it on myself. But to say to someone, oh, I, you know, I was really close to my aunt too.
And she was such an important part of my life. Like, tell me a little bit about your aunt.

Speaker 2 Like, what was she like?

Speaker 2 In that case, what I'm actually doing is I'm sharing of myself. I'm engaging in that social reciprocity,

Speaker 2 which feels really good and meaningful and trustworthy. But I'm doing it in the service of trying to connect with you, show you that I want to connect with you and learn from you.

Speaker 2 I find that even if somebody's telling me, let's say, about their hard day, you just say, how was your day? And they go on and on and on. And you simply just say, that sounds hard.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yo, yes.

Speaker 2 Like, that's all they needed. That's all they needed.
Oh, that's, oh, that's rude.

Speaker 2 If they're complaining about what somebody did to them, you go, yeah, that sounds rude. Like, isn't it? Like, it's just it.
That's all they're wanting the feeling.

Speaker 2 I was just going to say, they teach teachers to do this by telling them that if a student comes in, they want to have a, you know, a conversation, start the conversation by asking them, do you want to be helped?

Speaker 2 Do you want to be hugged? Or do you want to be heard? Which is the practical, this emotional and the social conversation.

Speaker 2 Because to exactly your point, if a kid says, no, no, I just need you to like, I just need you to know what's going on, then you can say, oh, that sounds really hard. Like, that's all that you need.

Speaker 2 You've told me that's all that you need to feel to feel good about this. That sounds difficult.
That sounds hard. Yeah, I mean, all of that,

Speaker 2 it's much more powerful than just the words themselves. In your book, you have a section, in fact, several different parts where you talk about jury deliberations.

Speaker 2 And I got into that and I was like, all right, here we go. Because I,

Speaker 2 of course, in my legal background, I love this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 Also, if you've never seen the movie 12 Angry Men, fantastic movie that I think illustrates a lot of the points that were being made.

Speaker 2 And what I took away from it is that anytime you, you take 12 people, they go back to do any kind of jury deliberation, whether whether it's civil case criminal case there has to be a foreman somebody who's kind of the ringleader a lot of times that happens to be a teacher because teachers just naturally interesting are one oh yeah gathering people believe it or not in trial when you're picking a jury most people won't pick teachers huh

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 most people tend to go the teacher's way and so if a teacher is on the jury they are very opinionated and they're very good at teaching others to match their opinion. That's amazing.
And so

Speaker 2 it's too much of a risk on a jury to have a teacher because you don't know are they going to go for your side or the other side? But if they're on your side, great.

Speaker 2 That means most people are going to be on your side.

Speaker 2 It's just so funny how a lot of the times teachers are very polarizing because they are very quick and they pick up on a lot of different things and they're great at just teaching.

Speaker 2 And juries, and jury deliberations, they'll teach other people.

Speaker 2 And so some people like that, some people don't.

Speaker 2 Can I ask you something, actually?

Speaker 2 When you're choosing your jury, you're going through void deer and you're asking them questions and you're listening to what they're saying.

Speaker 2 How accurate do you think you can be in figuring out

Speaker 2 what kind of mind, like what frame of mind that person is in, what they're going to bring to the jury room? Yeah. So first off, for anybody hearing any said voie deer in Texas, we call that voidire.

Speaker 2 And it's what it is, it's the process of asking a jury questions.

Speaker 2 So if you ever got a jury summons, you go into the room and there's a whole bunch of prospective jurors that they call the veneer and attorneys get to ask them questions and then they attorneys get to pick the people they want to be in the jury.

Speaker 2 It's a whole process that's supposed to push in fairness. Now, the question is, do you think that there's a way that we can kind of sense this person's personality, which way they're going to go?

Speaker 2 what's their temperature? I would say yes. So what I like to do and what I've gotten good at is you use a prospective juror almost as an early witness.

Speaker 2 So I might ask a question, I've done it before, where,

Speaker 2 you know, the officer, let's say at an accident, officer really didn't pay attention to my client.

Speaker 2 He was going to get talking to other people in the accident, but never really asked my client any questions.

Speaker 2 And so I asked the jury, you know, have you ever been in an accident? Hands raised, you know, or police officers involved, yes.

Speaker 2 Have you ever had it to where police officer really didn't ask you anything? Few people answered, so I get to talk to them. Well, how did that make you feel? Well, I kind of felt dismissed by that.

Speaker 2 Okay, noted. And so anybody else ever felt dismissed, you know, in a case where you felt like you weren't hearing your point out and you knew what you knew? Some other hands were raised.

Speaker 2 And you kind of get to use that person as a... as a voice almost

Speaker 2 to influence the other people's opinion and it's putting a temperature and tone to where my position is going to be and then if I'm going to try and get that person on the jury most likely they're not if they answer

Speaker 2 if you want to get knocked out of a jury uh all you have to do is talk a lot and and or die you're almost guaranteed to not be yawning because you're you've already shown you're very opinionated so that means one side isn't going to like you but that means when i'm asking my questions to the witness i'm going to ask those have you ever felt dismissed you You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 I'm bringing that theme up again every single time. So I was trying to, it's those little things like that.
That's really interesting. I love it.
And what you do so well in the book is you

Speaker 2 pull together these concepts of how people interact. What you called, I believe it was like a quiet negotiation of who's going to talk first? How are we going to...

Speaker 2 How are we going to set the structure around how we are to communicate? And I was curious what you see as our daily application of the quiet negotiation.

Speaker 2 So I think quiet negotiations happen all the time. And I love that story about the jury.

Speaker 2 You know, I tried to, throughout the book, I tried to tell a bunch of stories just because I think it's more interesting, like a story about a CIA officer recruiting overseas spies and how the Big Bang theory became such a big hit.

Speaker 2 But in that story in particular, this idea of quiet negotiation comes up, which is

Speaker 2 And research sort of shows this, that every time we engage in a conversation, at least the beginning of it, is oftentimes a quiet negotiation.

Speaker 2 And a quiet negotiation, the goal of a quiet negotiation is not to win the negotiation.

Speaker 2 The goal of a quiet negotiation is to understand what the other person wants.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 So when I sit down with my wife and we talk about where to go on vacation next year, I might start the conversation by saying, you know, like, tell me, like, what, what do you want out of a vacation?

Speaker 2 Like, like, what did you like about last year? What do you like about next year?

Speaker 2 And she's going to give me some answers and I'm going to respond to those. I'm going to tell her, oh, you know, I liked that too, but here's something I didn't like.

Speaker 2 And what we're doing is we're engaging in a little bit of negotiation, not just about where to go on vacation, but also what kind of conversation we're going to have.

Speaker 2 Is this a conversation where like, you tell me what you want and it's your way or the highway? Or is this a conversation where we kind of go back and forth and we share with each other?

Speaker 2 Or is this a conversation where like we're just dreaming? Like we dream as big as we want to and we know that there's no consequences.

Speaker 2 We're probably not going to end up going to, you know, on three safaris in one year.

Speaker 2 The quiet negotiation is something that happens in every conversation, and it's how we figure out how to talk to each other. How formal am I going to be? Can I make jokes?

Speaker 2 Or is this like a serious conversation? Like, what are

Speaker 2 we doing? Yeah, you're feeling them out. And we do this subconsciously, right? We do it almost without noticing it.

Speaker 2 But the people who do notice it just a little bit, they're the ones who end up being very persuasive and very good communicators.

Speaker 2 Because when we say, this person is telling me what kind of conversation they want to have, we become a little bit more attuned to paying attention to what kind of conversation they want to have.

Speaker 2 Because they might give us a clue.

Speaker 2 They might sound really serious. We might be talking about budgets for next year.
It seems like this is a practical conversation.

Speaker 2 And they say something like, you know, I'm just really, I'm really anxious. We're going to have layoffs.

Speaker 2 If I'm listening to that quiet negotiation, I'm hearing you say, oh, this is actually an emotional conversation for you before it's a practical conversation. You're anxious and you're worried.

Speaker 2 Those emotions are driving your decisions. And until we acknowledge those and we kind of like put them on the table, we're not going to be able to have a practical conversation about the numbers.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I'd love that point of there's the silence before the conversation that you're looking for clues, you're feeling them out.
Like

Speaker 2 maybe you meet somebody new for the first time, and maybe y'all spent kind of 10 minutes around each other and you learned.

Speaker 2 what they're like. Maybe there's somebody who has really dry humor or somebody that just kind of, you silently kind of start roasting the other people in the room or maybe you start,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 you, you, or it could be on the other side. Somebody comes into your office and they're in tears.
You know, it's about to be a very serious, confidential conversation.

Speaker 2 Or when somebody goes, leans in and is like, hey, real quick, just between me and you. It's like, hey, all of a sudden we...
we've now zeroed in on each other of how we're going to communicate.

Speaker 2 So that feeling this person out,

Speaker 2 it's funny how we almost do that programmatically. Just we

Speaker 2 there's no words that need to be said, but I'm going to adjust my behavior simply by the energy that I'm matching with the other person.

Speaker 2 And that's a really important word, energy, because let's talk for a second about what's happening inside our brains at that moment.

Speaker 2 So when we're in a conversation, and it's a good conversation, a conversation where we feel like the other person understands us, we understand them.

Speaker 2 What's happening is that our bodies and our brains are changing. So even in this conversation, even though we're separated by many thousands of miles,

Speaker 2 our heart rates are matching each other more and more. Our breath patterns are matching each other more and more.
Even the dilation of our pupils will start to sink up.

Speaker 2 And most importantly, our neural activity, what's happening inside our brains, if we could look inside both of our brains, what we would see is that they are starting to look more and more similar.

Speaker 2 And within neuroscience, I hate that for you. Honestly, I hate that.

Speaker 2 I love it. I love it.
I'm good with it. Within neuroscience, this is known as neural entrainment.
And this is actually the goal of communication.

Speaker 2 The goal of communication is for our thoughts to become aligned. Because when they are aligned, I understand what you're saying and I feel connected to you and you understand what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 And so when you mentioned before, we're trying to pick up on their energy.

Speaker 2 What we're really trying to pick up on there is how are they expressing to us through not only their words, but everything around their words, which part of their brain they're using, how their brain is functioning.

Speaker 2 This is why the three different kinds of conversations, because they use three different parts of our brain, that's why matching each other is so powerful, is it makes us easier for us to entrain with each other if we're having the same kind of conversation.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. I love it.
This

Speaker 2 last question, it's really me.

Speaker 2 This is a selfish question for me.

Speaker 2 How has your own communication changed in your life now having written an amazing communication book?

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm familiar with maybe the personal side of like, you might be like, oh, okay, this is the best you got. I think you wrote a book about this.

Speaker 2 We're now in this argument. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, there's a book in my wife often says there's a book she agreed. Yeah.
Yeah. So

Speaker 2 you get that from your wife, too. She's like, you know, there's some videos you might want to watch about your community.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 I would say, so I think twofold.

Speaker 2 The first thing is I just pay a lot more attention to what kind of conversation is happening now.

Speaker 2 You know, when my kids come to me, it's so easy when your kids come up to assume that they're just asking for help and to solve their problems for them.

Speaker 2 But, you know, do they want to be helped, heard, or hugged? And sometimes, sometimes they don't want to be helped.

Speaker 2 They just want me to hear what's going on and to understand and be able to say, like, look, it is, it is okay that you feel that way because I feel that way all the time.

Speaker 2 Or sometimes they just need a hug. You just need to say, like, look, it's not necessarily going to get better tomorrow, but today I can give you a hug.

Speaker 2 So I try and pay a lot more attention to what signals is someone sending me about what kind of conversation they want to have. But then the second way it's impacted my life is that

Speaker 2 there's this study known as the Harvard Study of Adult Development, where they followed thousands of people around for over 80 years.

Speaker 2 And they were trying to figure out what are the things earlier in life that make you healthy and happy and successful at age 65, however you define success.

Speaker 2 They had all these theories, like if you had a, if you, because it was done at Harvard, they were like, if you went to Harvard, you're definitely going to be happy, healthy, and successful.

Speaker 2 Turns out that's not true.

Speaker 2 That if you get married early and you stay married longer, that you're definitely going to be happy, healthier, and successful. Not necessarily a lot of overlap there.

Speaker 2 The only thing that they found was a predictor at age 65 was if you had a handful of close relationships at age 45.

Speaker 2 And that the way that we maintain those relationships is through conversation, right?

Speaker 2 If I have people I feel close close to by the time I'm 65 and I've been close to them for a while, then I'm going to live longer. I'll live up to seven years longer.

Speaker 2 I'll oftentimes be more financially successful because I'm exposed to different kinds of opportunities. And most importantly, I'm just happier.

Speaker 2 Like spending time with other people and communicating with other people, as you've pointed out in so much of your work, that is the thing that gives life meaning.

Speaker 2 And so I have tried very deliberately to think about maintaining those relationships.

Speaker 2 There's people who I feel close to, who I talk to twice a year, but I make a point of talking to them twice a year. And I set up, you know, an hour, 90 minutes to catch up with each other.

Speaker 2 And you know, the first five minutes are going to be kind of awkward, right? It's going to be like, what's your kid's name again? How old are they?

Speaker 2 But then you're going to be in it and you're going to feel close to each other. And that, that is an investment that pays off over the long term.
Like you wouldn't believe.

Speaker 2 That hit me like a ton of bricks, what you said about your kids, How

Speaker 2 so often we see it as when they come to us, we're assuming they're asking for help.

Speaker 2 And that is not always the case. Because like my daughter, she's learning how to tie shoes.
And so she really doesn't want my help. She's wanting me to watch.
It's always, hey, dad, watch this.

Speaker 2 Hey, daddy, watch this. Same with my son.
It's just they're wanting me to observe. and acknowledge and be part of it rather than me trying to be like, what, what do you need? No, you're fine.

Speaker 2 You don't need my help. Like, yeah, you're good.
Oh, do you mean to do it for you? No, no, no, no, no. That's, that's not it.

Speaker 2 That's beautiful.

Speaker 2 Can I ask you, because you've been thinking about this stuff for a long time.

Speaker 2 How do you feel like your communication has changed as a result of thinking about it so deliberately and explaining it to other folks?

Speaker 2 I got this weird habit that I've always had, Charles, of hearing phrases. and being like, oh, I like that.

Speaker 2 Even if it's somebody that's against me, if there's a a way that they're going about the conversation,

Speaker 2 I have this thing where I can kind of see it. And so

Speaker 2 I like to visualize conversations

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 try to watch them happen, even when it's me being involved with them. And so I think

Speaker 2 having now invested in communication work and written something and hopefully joining this league of wonderful authors like yourself is it's made me all the more conscious of the bigger picture.

Speaker 2 And that is the ways that I can slow down in my own life and listen a whole lot more.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it's kind of different because not everybody, nobody wants to be told to be a better listener. Like one of my worst videos that ever performed ever was a video I made on how to be a better listener.

Speaker 2 Really?

Speaker 2 Nobody wants to be a better listener. But what I have found is that the more I have invested in saying,

Speaker 2 the richer I've become in learning how to not say anything and listen. And so that has feels like much more of

Speaker 2 a strength that I did not anticipate going into this. That's really interesting.
We got some great takeaways.

Speaker 2 So what we're going to do for people who want to be a super communicator, and you tell me if you agree with this, Charles, number one, ask more questions.

Speaker 2 So when somebody tells you something, find a way to just create a habit, like we talked about, of just asking one, maybe two questions have one that talks about how they feel about something and two if you can repeat exactly in a paraphrase what you heard to make them feel acknowledged and connected another takeaway that we had is that anytime you're in a conversation you're typically in three type of boxes is it something very practical is it very something social or for your reputation or is it something that's more emotion-based and when you can match that person there's going to create connection in the conversation and three what i'm going to personally take away is when somebody's coming to you, it's not always asking for help, it is simply asking to be heard.

Speaker 2 I love it. This has been awesome.
I love, yeah, it was a that's a fantastic summary. You got

Speaker 2 a listening, yeah, working on the listening. Yeah, if you ever need a book summary, somebody help with your book summaries,

Speaker 2 let me know. I volunteer.
It's been a wonderful time talking with you. Thank you for your time on the podcast.
Thank you so much, Jefferson. Thank you for having me.