1162: Calculating Courtesan Craves Close Connection | Feedback Friday

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To you, my darling.

No, to you.

The roses were living the dream.

More champagne for me, Pete.

Until it all came crashing down.

He got fired by it.

From the director of Meet the Parents.

You're a failure.

Women don't like that.

If you need a shoulder or an inner thigh to lean on.

On August 29th.

I just want the house.

We want everything.

Wow.

Stop.

Let's go.

And see the roses.

These people.

The roses.

Rated R.

Under 17, not a minute without parent.

In theaters everywhere, August 29th.

Welcome to Feedback Friday.

I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the co-captain, keeping an eye on the skies while we put this aircraft of life drama on dues control, Gabriel Mazrahi.

Nice.

Are we free to walk about the cabin now?

Yeah, you can go stretch your quads or do some yoga by the first-class lavatory.

I am that guy, actually, on long-haul flights.

I am the guy who's like in the back of the plane by the lavatory.

I won't do downdogs.

It's gross to put your hands on.

Gross.

Yeah.

But, you know, I'm like stretching against the wall while the flight attendants are checking their phones on their break.

It's it's the only way to get through a flight.

It really is.

You know, I have to say, you ever see somebody go into the have we talked about this?

They go into lavatory wearing no socks and you're just like, you disgusting bastard.

Oh, of course we've talked about that.

But are we going to talk about the fact that you pronounce it lavatory?

Did I say lavatory?

The lavatory?

That seems like how I used to talk.

My dear friend and co-host loves to say lavatory and grandiose.

Grandiose.

Lavali.

He's a member of the upper crust in like Imperial Britain.

What are you talking about?

This podcast is really the Queen's English is the only acceptable vernacular.

Vernacular.

You swing from like this freaking guy to Lavatory.

Lavatory.

Lavatory.

Lavatory.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into

practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

Hey, during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, organized crime figures, scientists, military folks, journalists, jihadis, you name it.

This week, we had Tegan Broadwater, author of Life in the Fishbowl.

He's a former undercover cop who infiltrated one of America's most notorious Crip organizations.

We talked about infiltrating street gangs, working undercover, the damage these gangs do to communities.

There was just so much to talk about.

We made it into a two-parter, truly amazing story here.

On Fridays, though, we take listener letters, offer advice, play way too niche soundbites, and randomly pronounce words like, we're dame Judy Dench.

How cool of a title is that, by the way, dame.

DJD.

DJD.

Love it.

By the way, Gabe, thanks for letting me crash at your place again this week.

Oh, yeah, of course.

My pleasure, Brosafina.

You enjoy your stay?

You know it, man.

Another 10 out of 10.

I noticed you quarantined your cache of kidney beans on the right side of the fridge so I could fit in two dozen organes in there.

Appreciated that.

Yep.

I read your Google review from last time, so feedback taken.

Sorry, I couldn't join you for hot yoga this time.

I did something weird to my arm, as you know, and I didn't want to push it.

Yeah, I know.

You were in delicate shape, you little delicate flower.

I get it.

A snowflake.

I interviewed Ed Helms this week from the office from the hangover, and when I went to shake his hand, I froze in mid-air, and I just went,

and he was like, oh, that's not good.

And at my age, I know better than to go ham when I've pulled a muscle.

I like working out too much to risk a real injury that's going to take me out for several weeks or months.

Fair enough.

So Ed Helms, he's like, let me sign your book.

And it says, I hope your shoulder feels better.

Which in 20 years, I'm going to be like, what was he talking about?

But yeah, it was funny.

Gabe, I hope you don't mind I'm about to tell everybody this.

Oh, our homo erotic work session.

Yeah.

Why not?

So Wednesday night, and I really wish you didn't just describe it that way, but I guess that's what it was.

So Gabe and I are in the living room.

We're doing some show prep, and I can't even lift my right arm.

I'm like, oh, my God, I tore my rotator cuff or I separated it or whatever.

He's like, ah.

You want me to work on it for you?

I'm like, anything at all, because it's actually just hurting doing normal stuff, which is not good.

So Gabe starts giving me some sort of like brutal shiatsu level massage.

There's knuckles and thumbs deep in the back of my shoulder.

And after 10 minutes, I swear my arm was like 60% better.

I couldn't believe it.

Yeah, dude.

No, shout out to my dad for teaching me that stuff.

He's been taking me to Shiatsu massages since I was a kid, and he's always like fixing my neck and my shoulder, my back.

It's magic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Double shout out to Victor, to Padre, because I also ate one of those bomb-ass grapefruits from his garden.

So he's killing the citrus game, Victor.

He really is.

But hey, at one point, we're going over a consult or something, and I'm sitting at the table, dining table, your dining table on on my laptop, and Gabe's standing behind me working on my shoulder.

We just lock eyes in the mirror, like, uh, and just burst out laughing.

Like, this is the gayest thing that we've ever done, but I don't care because my shoulder is killing me.

One of our most ridiculous moments, but also very special, I feel.

Yeah, somehow even more ridiculous than bar,

hot bar.

I'm just glad I had my clothes on this time.

Oh, dude, when I started, Jordan was like, You want me to take off my shirt?

And I was like, Um,

no, that's okay, dude.

No,

I think we can get this done with the shirt on, you know, just so we can look each other in the eye after.

Yeah, we do have to have a working relation.

There's no HR department to complain to.

They call Jen complaining about your conduct.

Yeah.

Thanks for the happy ending.

No, I'm kidding.

Thanks for the massage and a place to lay my head.

Couldn't help but notice there was no gift on my pillow this time.

Very little disappointing.

Wow.

Not complaining.

Just noticing.

I'm Platinum Elite at Shea Gabe.

At least you could do bottle of champagne for me to ignore on the bedside table.

I lent you my shampoo and I fixed your shoulder.

You're going to complain that there weren't chocolate-covered strawberries in your room?

God, you're such a diva now.

Just saying maybe you're getting a little too comfortable, but that's all.

Speaking of flamboyance, a lot of you have been writing me lately saying you've been enjoying the stories we tell on Feedback Friday.

And some of you have asked me, how can I learn how to tell good stories as well?

And so I thought I'd share a few thoughts about this, kind of one of my favorite topics.

Because being a good storyteller, just in a very simple, everyday kind of way, even if you're not doing it professionally, professionally, you're not going to go to the moth or whatever.

It's just a great skill to have.

And I'm always trying to hone it a little bit every week.

So obviously you need to have moments that are worthy of a story in order to tell a good one, but they don't need to be magical, right?

I also think most people, they just don't realize how much of what happens to them every day is kind of storyworthy, or at least every week,

because maybe we're not always paying attention in the right way, or maybe we haven't found a way of talking about life that makes things storyworthy, which is part of the magic of being able to spin a good yarn.

I mean, I know people who can captivate me with the story about going to the dry cleaners or whatever, or getting their shoulder jabbed with a thumb.

And I know people who have hiked Mount Everest or done crazy, exciting things, and they just put me to sleep in a few seconds when they're trying to recount something.

So yes, it definitely helps if weird or crazy stuff happens to you, if you're the kind of person who tends to get into funny situations, but it's not necessary.

And for me, what makes something storyworthy is all the little details.

The details are everything.

So that's the first big step in my view, just just paying attention to those details.

Could it be the way the cashier at the store looked?

Could it be the weird way your neighbor said, Have a good one when you passed them in the hall this morning?

Could it be the way that you felt when you were on a date?

Could it be the way the office smelled when your colleague Todd microwaved salmon in the break room?

You get the idea.

The more minute and bizarre, kind of the better the details are.

The other thing, most memorable moments, most good details, even if we clock them, they're lost because we forget to capture them.

So, in my opinion, most people, and remember, I used to teach clients this all the time for 11 years or whatever.

Most people have more great stories than they realize.

They just don't have the practice of observing the world around them.

And they're not in the habit of documenting the stuff life throws at them just by keeping it real short.

There was one guy in a very early class that I taught in like 2007, and he told me, I don't have any stories.

And I said, why not?

And he said, I just got back to the United States and I don't have anything that I'm doing here, really.

I'm between jobs.

I said, what was your old job?

He said, I used to drive a fuel tanker in Iraq and Afghanistan in the military.

And I was like, didn't you ever get attacked or anything like that?

And he's like, oh, yeah, all the time.

They'd shoot rocket-propelled grenades.

So this is a guy who used to get shot at with driving a truck full of fuel.

He used to have rocket-propelled grenades shot at him.

In a war zone.

In a war zone.

And he was like, oh, I don't have anything interesting to talk about.

That, to me, was ridiculous.

Another guy told us he had nothing interesting to talk about.

And his hobby turned out to be flying his own plane over the coastal areas of Florida and looking for Cubans that were floating in on rafts and reporting them so that they could get rescued because a lot of these people were coming in on like tires.

And he was a Cuban guy and he was like, I want these people to not drown.

So I look for people that are in danger and I report it to these boat teams that go and get them.

And I'm like, you don't think you have stories?

These are some of the most interesting things that I've heard.

I remember it 15, 20 years later.

Isn't it funny how you could become desensitized to your own life?

Yes, that's what it is.

So most people really do have some.

I recommend writing down the funniest or most most interesting thing that happens to you each day, even if it's kind of a stretch or if it's easier with an audience, text your best friend whenever something unusual happens and try to describe exactly what went down.

Then paste it into your notes app or whatever you got.

And yes, most days are relatively uneventful, but over time, these small notes add up.

And in a year or two, you could easily have five, 10 genuinely entertaining stories to share.

Plus, you'll be training your brain to pay attention to what happens in a new way.

And that'll just give you more and more fodder.

After that, it's kind of all about practice.

You just tell little stories to people here and there over and over, get comfortable talking about life in that way, watch their reactions, see what gets a laugh, see what makes them lean in, see what makes them tune out, iron out the kinks, hone your material, figure out which stories do well in which settings.

It's a skill.

And like any skill, you get better at it the more that you do it.

And like I said a moment ago, if you can get even 20% better at telling stories, even if you're not trying to be a stand-up comedian or a writer or a corporate trainer, something like that, this is a real kind of game changer in many ways.

The best salespeople I know are storytellers.

The best daters I know are storytellers.

And actually, I kind of think the happiest people I know are storytellers.

It's maybe a weird claim, but storytelling, look, it's not just a career.

It's a way of appreciating life, reflecting it back to people, influencing them if the situation calls for it.

But mostly it's just about being playful and having fun.

And that is really available to all of us.

So give it a go and see what happens.

Oh, and one more thing before we kick off, housekeeping thing.

We're retiring the AI chatbot on the website.

Unfortunately, the company we were working with to build and manage the chatbot is pivoting.

They're no longer supporting the chatbots.

It's a bummer.

I like that thing.

I know you guys did too.

Maybe we'll get another one.

That's just what's happening.

So if you want to dig up an old episode, a few easy ways you can do that are you go to Google, you type in site colon jordanharbinger.com, then the keywords you're looking for, like Feedback Friday, rubber mallet, hit and run, or whatever.

And then that'll tell Google to crawl just our website and it should turn up the episode.

You You can use third-party AI, of course.

I think there's a few of those now.

Or if you try all of that, you really can't find something, you can always email us or the Feedback Friday inbox directly.

We'll try to find it for you.

But it is a huge help when you try for yourself first.

Just with the volume of email that we get in Ditto for sponsor codes, email me directly.

I'll find ones you can't find on jordanharpinger.com slash deals.

All right.

What's the first thing out of the mailbag?

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a trans lesbian in my late 30s living in rural Asia.

And recently, my wife of 12 years lost our life savings in an investment scam.

She used the money without consulting me, lost it all, and now is court-mandated to repay half of it to me.

Oh man, I'd be so pissed if my spouse of 12 years lost our entire life savings in a scam.

That really hurts.

A lot of people don't realize that financial infidelity is a thing, and it can be just as painful as sexual infidelity or emotional infidelity.

Thankfully, I'd been strategically and secretly saving little by little for 10 years in this unhappy marriage, waiting for the opportunity to escape and start over.

This incident gave me the chance and I took it.

I got out, grew my business, reclaimed my freedom, and hoped I'd finally make a meaningful connection with someone more like me.

But I wonder if I'm built for meaningful human connection.

I'm an INTJ with strong Machiavellian traits.

Is it not Machiavellian?

Oh, now you're going to go Machiavellian on this one?

Yeah.

Wow.

This is Italian.

This one is mock.

Machiavelli.

Machiavellian.

Machiavelli.

I'm an INTJ with strong Machiavellian traits.

Yeah.

Therapy, lots of introspection, and recent events have made this abundantly clear to me.

So, okay.

Quick pause.

For anyone who's not familiar with these Myers-Briggs, that's the test I think she's referring to, right?

Myers-Briggs, yeah.

These personality types, which I know Jordan has done a skeptical Sunday about this test, it's far from perfect.

But the INTJ personality type is short for introverted, intuitive, thinking, judging.

Apparently, these are people known for for their strategic thinking, problem solving, independence, long-term vision, but they can also apparently seem aloof or dismissive, and they can be perfectionists, among other things.

Interesting.

I am an ENTJ, but sometimes it also says I'm an I-N-T-J too, depending on how much coffee I've had, which is sort of part of the reason I think the test is questionable.

But the fact that she identifies with these qualities is good to know.

So, okay, trans lesbian.

I'm just making sure I'm tracking this.

That means she was a man and she transitioned to being a woman and she dates or whatever women.

Right.

That's right.

Yep.

Okay.

So she goes on.

I crave intimacy, but I view relationships as transactional.

If the emotional or a financial cost outweighs the benefit, I walk away without a second thought.

I've been doing this since high school with friends, family, and romantic partners.

Since childhood, I've always valued my freedom and way of doing things.

I loathe compromising my routines or my logic.

I also absolutely hate the rituals of dating, wasting time and money on things that I feel don't matter.

Deep down, I suspect I'm not capable of loving someone just for who they are.

I need a reason to like someone.

As a result, I've maintained almost no deep, meaningful relationships in my life.

Wow.

Okay.

Well, I appreciate your candor.

It's good to know yourself this well, I think.

We'll get into all this, I'm sure.

While married, I began visiting legal brothels with my wife's consent as she, quote, wanted to prioritize her career over our relationship, but didn't want to lose me, unquote.

I enjoyed those encounters so much much that I started working at one part-time myself.

It suits my personality.

I treat encounters like a game, reading people, strategizing, and getting as much money as I can from my quote-unquote toys.

It satisfies my need for intimacy and dominance, and gives me nice extra income with little effort.

Unfortunately, the clients are all men, which limits my enjoyment.

But still, I find it genuinely fun and extremely empowering.

Wow, fascinating.

The toys thing is a little dark, though.

That's fascinating though.

The issue is, I still want an intimate connection with someone I am attracted to, but my circumstances make that nearly impossible.

The only things I have going for me are a profitable business, good health, and above-average natural good looks.

My business is located here, so I can't move unless I start over from scratch, which is too risky.

I should quit my undercover, but legal, sex work as well, because If it were discovered, it could devastate my business.

I've dated a couple people since my divorce, but but end things as soon as I feel the benefits do not match the costs.

I've also had a few casual hookups that worked well, but they're rare and I believe going to get even rarer as my playmates and I get older, as most people my age are looking for something serious.

I honestly don't think I have the personality to invest in building such a relationship.

The risk of being used for someone else's gain and losing my freedom is something I desperately try to avoid.

I can't shake the idea that it's a dog-e-dog world, and letting my guard down feels like a a risky emotional investment with potentially little to no return.

At my age and with my personality, a future with a steady, intimate partner looks bleaker and bleaker.

How does someone like me, detached, freedom-loving, and always running a cost-benefit analysis, find real intimacy?

Is it worth sacrificing autonomy for connection when the risk of being used or losing my identity feels so high?

Should I keep dating casually while I still can, knowing it may lead to long-term isolation?

Or should I accept that meaningful romantic relationships might not be for me and focus on maximizing independence, even if that means returning to paid intimacy and risking loneliness later?

Is it realistic to hope for a partner who fits me?

Signed, Feeling Jittery about protecting my agility without ending up in captivity and losing my precious liberty when I need the flexibility to pursue all the possibilities.

Wow, quite a story.

She's painted such a vivid and fascinating portrait of herself.

I got to say, she's really owning these personality traits, some of which are definitely challenging.

And she's asking some really good questions.

It's interesting, Gabe.

These questions, they're ones that everybody asks, right?

Or at least tons of people.

Totally.

Am I going to find someone?

How do I partner without losing myself?

Should I just go all in on myself and accept that I might be lonely sometimes?

This is universal, right?

Exactly.

It's very universal stuff.

Well said.

So her circumstances are unique.

A trans woman living in rural Asia, highly enterprising, who also works in a brothel part-time or something.

So wild.

What a double life that is, huh?

Yeah.

With these beliefs about people and these beliefs about herself, yeah.

She's one of a kind.

That's for sure.

I've never met anyone like this.

That's for sure.

So, okay, here's where I'm a little bit stuck.

She's saying, this is how I am.

I'm detached.

I value my freedom above all else.

I'm always running a cost-benefit analysis on people.

I hate the rituals of dating.

I'm self-sufficient.

I'm not capable of loving someone just for who they are.

Right.

But then she's also saying, I really crave true intimacy.

Yeah, right.

But she's not asking us, are these qualities I can work on?

Should I work on them?

How do I work on them?

The rigidity she's describing, we're also seeing that in this letter.

She's treating her personality as very fixed.

And then trying to square that with being in a meaningful relationship, which kind of demands the opposite of most of these qualities, I think.

Yeah, I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if she believes her personality is fixed, which by the way, I believe she believes that, and I believe she has some good reasons for believing, but if that's her stance, how can we actually help here?

She already knows that having this lens is incompatible with intimacy, or at least it makes it very difficult.

We don't need to help her see that.

She's already got that.

But if there isn't some openness to changing, then she's already kind of answered a lot of these questions.

Right.

Then I would say, yes, it's possible to find a partner who fits you, but it'll probably be harder than it is for most people, I would imagine.

And the relationship might not be as intimate as you say you want.

And also, at least prepare to be hyper-independent as you age and embrace solitude if giving these things up isn't doable.

So, okay, let's talk about some of those things because, like you said, the tension that she feels between wanting to experience true love and feeling like she's going to lose her identity.

That is a very universal fear, as we said.

I have that too, honestly.

I think it's especially pronounced for people who really value their independence, who like being alone, who want to live life on their own terms, et cetera.

But I think there's more to that story, too.

I'm wondering, has she dated people who have expected her to fundamentally change?

Has she been able to say to a partner, hey, you know, this is what I need in order to be happy.

I need to be my own person.

I need this amount of time to myself or whatever it is.

Like what's going on inside of her that makes her feel like she needs to sacrifice such crucial parts of herself in order to be available to someone?

Because that is a very subtle process and it's complicated.

And I have to imagine that it involves her as much as it involves another person who seems to demand so much time and energy or holds very different values from her.

Yeah, I also wonder how her gender and her transition figure into that.

She's like, I don't want to change fundamentally for someone else.

And I'm wondering if she felt like she had to do that up until she transitioned.

And so defending her right to be authentically her, maybe that's extra important to her.

Good theory.

But she's also said that she's been like this since she was a kid, or at least since high school.

That's a good point.

Okay, so maybe it's just who she is.

But I still want to acknowledge that her gender identity stuff probably informs a lot of this in ways that we might not fully understand.

I mean, I find it fascinating.

But anyway, to your point, this isn't as simple as my identity will always be on the line no matter what.

There's always something about how she shows up in relationship that's also playing a big role.

I do wonder what would happen if she went into a relationship going, okay, I'm going to try to be available to this person without losing myself along the way.

I'm going to speak up if something's bothering me.

I'm going to maintain a lot of my schedule, my routines, my interests, and see what it's like to be be with somebody and still be myself.

Yes.

And that is the fundamental tension.

But the deeper issue is I think she's scared.

Yeah.

I mean, I was going to say, which again is super interesting because she sounds quite courageous.

Kind of a tough cookie.

I'm getting that impression.

But also tough cookies can be very sensitive.

You know, I do get the sense that underneath these rigid concepts, these militant beliefs, this whole, I need a good reason to love someone, and if it's not working for me, I leave first.

Underneath all of that is a vulnerable person, just like we all are.

She might want to consider whether all of these qualities and beliefs and patterns that she's told us about are, in a way, defenses against that vulnerability.

Right.

A way of coping with how exposed she feels to other people, etc.

And probably if I had to guess, maybe an adaptation to some potentially painful formative experiences early on and along the way.

There might slash must be some trauma in her past.

Otherwise, it wouldn't feel so urgent to protect herself in this way.

And it wouldn't feel so, I don't know, fatal to really let someone in and potentially lower the walls.

Yes, exactly.

I want to be clear about one thing, though.

I'm not trying to pathologize her love of freedom or desire for independence.

I'm not even saying that wanting to have good reasons to be in a relationship with someone is entirely wrong or bad.

I think that's actually kind of wise to a certain degree.

No, I hear you, but when those qualities are turned up to 11,

when they get in the way of the things that you say you want,

then there's a problem.

Exactly.

When they generally move you away from other people instead of appropriately close to them, That's when it's time to go, okay, there might be something for me to look at here.

And I can't help but see that in the whole sort of brothel side hustle thing.

Oh, yeah.

Well, I mean, we got to talk about that.

Obviously, I'm going to tread lightly here because A, I don't know the ins and outs of that world and how it works and what it's like, especially in her country or in any country for that matter.

And B, I'm about to use an intense word here.

I don't know if I mean it clinically, but there's something vaguely sociopathic about the way she describes her work at the brothel.

I'm not saying she's a sociopath.

I'm just saying it's like kind of clinical at best.

I think you meant sociopathic.

Sociopathic.

Yeah.

Sociopathic.

That's right.

No, quite.

I mean, she said it's like a game, reading people, strategizing, getting as much money as she can from.

And she calls her clients her toys, which really is quite a bit of a matter of time.

That's quite a sentence.

Yeah.

And again, I really appreciate how open she's being with us.

It's making it so much easier to dig into this with her, but it's, I mean, it's a little disturbing.

Definitely.

What I find fascinating about this is she gets to be kind of a dom in this place, right?

Sexually, financially.

And that role, that dynamic, as she puts it, satisfies my need for intimacy.

But is that really intimacy?

Treating these men who she's not into at all, let's remember, treating them like toys, literally like an ATM so she can fund her Robin Hood account or whatever.

What she's really saying is it satisfies my need for intimacy on my terms.

Yes.

And intimacy entirely on one's own terms.

You could debate this, but that isn't really true intimacy, right?

Right.

Especially if there's money involved.

What it is, is an orchestrated, calibrated, formalized form of connection, which is different.

Exactly.

And that's what I'm kind of getting at here.

This side hustle is obviously playing a certain role for her and generates extra income.

My sense is that it's allowing her to like micro-dose intimacy, big air quotes around the word intimacy there in a way that probably feels controlled or controllable.

Yes.

And in a way that feels safe.

Yes.

And it's allowing her to exercise this sociopathic part of her personality in a socially acceptable way.

Because a brothel, that's an environment where using people and being used and playing with power and exchanging money and all that stuff.

That's all welcome there.

All of that is recognized.

It's part of the game.

So it's okay.

Yeah, such a good point.

But she experiences it as genuinely fun and extremely empowering.

So what do we do with that?

I'm sure it is, but it only kind of begs the question, what's fun about it?

Where does the need to enjoy that kind of power come from?

Good point.

And if she answered those questions, I think she would probably take a huge step toward answering all of these big questions that she ended her letter with.

I think so.

And again, I'm using the term sociopathic generically off-label, as it were.

I'm in no position to diagnose anybody with anything like that.

I'm not saying that she has a true personality disorder at all.

She might, but she might also not.

And either way, as you were saying a moment ago, underneath whatever label you use, there are almost certainly some core wounds.

Yeah, and until she gets a good handle on those and finds some ways of healing them, even a little bit, not just embracing them or nursing them or talking very clearly about them or apparently sublimating them through entrepreneurship or sex work or solitude, but really unpacking them, which can only really happen in close relationships, right?

Either with friends or partners or a therapist, I think she's probably going to be stuck with this conflict.

The conflict is not fixed, but it is very hard to resolve as long as the underlying wounds are not addressed.

She did say she went to therapy and learned a lot there, but an intellectual understanding of your personality, that's different from a healing process, right?

I'm sure.

I'm curious to know if they got into this stuff in a real way.

Her childhood, her life experiences, her transition, what happened in her marriage.

There's just so much to dig into here.

Yes.

And I'm so curious to know what happened around high school because that seems to be an inflection point for her.

She said something kind of developed right around then.

So I'm just would love to know.

14, 15, 16, what was going on.

Yes, I would love for her to do that work.

I just want to touch on one other interesting thing in her story, which is money.

She said the sex work gave her some extra income.

That's part of the draw.

Let's also remember that what led to her divorce, although it was apparently an unhappy marriage the whole time, so there's that, but what led to them splitting up was that her wife lost their life savings in a scam.

She used the money without telling her, which sounds like it was a very big betrayal.

But also the reason she was able to leave the marriage was that she had been secretly saving money for 10 years, waiting for the opportunity to escape and start over, her words.

Yeah, but also like, wow, good plan.

That worked out for you.

But she, so she had an escape hatch the whole time.

The whole investment scam debacle gave her the opportunity to leave or maybe the pretext to leave and she took it.

And reclaimed her freedom.

Like she said, so yeah, money is a really, it's really important to her here.

It symbolizes freedom and whatnot, probably.

In our society, money is freedom, right?

It's obviously

highly useful.

So there's a practical aspect to the money that makes perfect sense to me.

But I suspect that the money is also precious to her psychologically, right?

To your point, it represents freedom and freedom is what she values most in the world.

And then earning money and protecting money and using money the way she wants to, that is huge for her.

But the way she's managed her money, it's also a secret, right?

She secretly squirreled it away during her marriage.

She secretly earns it at the brothel, knowing that it's apparently a huge liability to her business.

Actually, she said it could devastate her business, which tells me she's willing to put a lot of stuff at risk in order to keep enjoying this part of her life.

So my theory is that there's a thrill associated with this money, not just because of the taboo nature of the sex work, but because that money is hers and hers alone.

And it's earned through this very precious part of her personality and also because only she knows about that money and it's fascinating but you know having secrets that no one else knows about is a very powerful way to shore up your personality and preserve your sense of self and create a whole inner world that no one else can touch which probably feels crucial maybe even sacred when it feels like that is constantly at risk of being taken away damn yeah like i have this whole private universe no one will ever know about and the more i can cling to that the less people can get in yes and the lower the risk of losing who I am.

Exactly.

And you know what?

I get that.

I think we all have those parts of our personality that we tuck away.

And sometimes they're shameful and sometimes they're comforting because they're ours.

So I can relate, but this isn't just, you know, I don't know, weird thoughts or painful experiences she hasn't opened up about.

This is a whole part of her life that is apparently incompatible with other parts of her life, including potentially the one thing that she says she wants, which is a real partner.

So,

wow.

Okay.

A lot to talk about here.

I hope that gives you a few ways into this process.

These binds you're in between freedom and intimacy, between autonomy and connection, between solitude and partnership, they're not ones we're solving here on a podcast, even this one.

But we can only invite you to get more curious about what's underneath those conflicts and encourage you to seek out people and experiences like therapy that'll allow you to unpack them.

But I will say this.

Your core beliefs that it's a dog-eat-dog world out there, that people are going to take something precious from you, they do sound like projections of your deepest fears.

Like you said, letting my guard down feels like a risky emotional investment with potentially little to no return.

The world out there, it's never just the world.

It's also how we see the world and how we see the world is determined by our lenses on it.

And those lenses are informed by our values and our cultures and most importantly, our individual histories.

So the possibility of our lives, whether we can have all the things we want, that largely depends on taking a good look at those lenses, unpacking those histories and being willing to step into very raw and potentially painful territory with other people.

For some people like you, that can be prohibitively scary.

And I just, I have a lot of compassion for that.

But until you risk doing that, you probably won't get to experience the joy of trying things a new way, the joy of evolving, which is the only way I know of resolving these conflicts.

Thanks for sharing so much of yourself with us.

It's really nice to get to know you, spend some time with you here.

I hope you keep going and and good luck.

And now I'm going to share my little toys with you, the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

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All right, back to Feedback Friday.

What's next?

Hey guys, I wrote to you last summer about getting emotionally involved with my coworker Bob while in a long-term relationship with my first serious boyfriend.

That was the last letter on episode 1037, by the way.

So, quick recap on this story.

Our friend here and this guy, Bob, connected at work.

She had a boyfriend, he had a girlfriend.

He also had kids, I believe from a previous relationship.

They developed this deep emotional connection that blurred some lines.

Apparently, nothing physical ever happened between them, but they did meet up a few times, once with his kids, actually.

And then one night they ended up alone and she was like, yo, what is this thing between us?

And Bob said that there was no point in continuing things because neither of them would ever leave their partners.

And that was pretty much the last time they spoke.

And then she was asking us, I think, why Bob ended things so abruptly and whether she should tell her boyfriend what happened.

And whether she should reach out to Bob for closure sometime after because they work in an industry where they might bump into each other and she wanted to end on good terms.

Right, right.

And if I recall, we were like, eh, maybe take a B because there might be a few motivations in wanting to reach out and it might not be necessary/slash appropriate.

Yes.

Our take was the most important thing about the whole Bob chapter was understanding what he revealed about what she really wants and whether her relationship was the right one for her.

So, she writes, After the episode, my life took some interesting turns, and boy oh boy, you're in for a treat.

Ooh, let's doze it.

As you advised me, I did tell my boyfriend about Bob.

Yes, it was uncomfortable and painful, and in the end, we decided that it was probably best to go our separate ways.

But after three months, we met again and realized that we both hurt the relationship, that we both had so much to work on, and we don't want to go through life with anybody else we got back together and it's been better than ever with a focus on communication and trust wow okay sounds like you guys are putting in the work and doing things differently this time that's really encouraging but my relationship is not what i'm here to talk about today

okay that was just the amuse bouche i guess then yeah fine the amuse dues yes as the case may be she goes on that's right at the beginning of this year i managed to get my dream job I was extremely happy and proud of myself and ready to start this new chapter.

I walk in on my first day, and when I get to the room I'll be working in and I'm shown the schedule, I freeze.

Whose name do I see on the same shift as mine?

Drum roll, please.

Oh man, Bob.

Bob's girlfriend.

Way worse.

Way, way worse.

Oh man, that is a small world in the worst way.

Oh man.

She was set to start a few weeks later and I spent every one of those days in an anxiety spiral.

What if Bob told her about me and I get a bitch slap when she walks in?

What if he didn't tell her about me and then she finds out we work together and I have to navigate what I can say and what I can't?

Safe to say, my first weeks at my dream job were a nightmare.

Bob's girlfriend, let's call her Mimi, finally joined.

And lo and behold, our manager put us on a project together.

I tried to be friendly, but not too friendly, and hold back any information regarding where I used to work.

When she finally asked and found out I used to work with Bob, she seemed quite surprised because Bob, quote, never mentioned me, unquote.

Yeah, I bet he didn't.

Oh, I don't know why I didn't tell you about the girl that I was thinking about leaving you for and had an emotional affair with at work.

Must have slipped my mind.

Relieved, I saw a scenario where we coexist, but don't have to speak to each other too much.

But the next day, Mimi sat right next to me and we kept being put on projects together because we were working pretty well together.

It's been three months, and it hurts me to say this, but we're really good friends now.

But that's what you get for being nice.

You should have been a terrible bitch and then they wouldn't have put you together.

Wow, those two don't get along at all.

Honestly, this is bananas.

How does life do this stuff to us, man?

I did not want to be her friend.

I just wanted to be civil.

But we kept talking and sharing, and now we're inseparable.

Oh my God.

And meanwhile, she's just sitting there like, so your boyfriend and I were kind of in love and he almost broke up with you for me.

This is so stressful.

I am getting secondhand sweats.

I realized early on that she enjoys my company and I thought it would be rude of me to shut her off and push her away because she hasn't done anything to me.

My guilty conscience went, I wronged Mimi by allowing her boyfriend to disrespect her, so the least I can do is at least try to be a nice person to her.

Huh.

Okay, that's an interesting take on what happened.

I'm not sure that I totally agree.

I mean, I get it.

You got involved with her boyfriend.

Things got messy.

You had a hand in this, but you didn't allow Bob to disrespect her.

He was there too.

Mimi was his partner.

He chose to get involved with you as well.

I appreciate that you're taking accountability.

You want to be a kind person, but let's be accurate.

Yeah, here.

She carries some guilt, but it's skewing her understanding of how it all went down.

Exactly, yeah.

I told my boyfriend about Bob and Mimi, and he's the only person whose opinion about me matters.

But I can't help but feel like an absolute piece of trash when Mimi shows me pictures of her kids, and I have to pretend I don't know which one is which.

I'm not going to tell her anything about Bob.

It's not my place.

It's up to him to decide whether he's going to be truthful towards his girlfriend.

But I'm tired of always feeling like a horrible person while I'm just trying to live my life the best I can.

Oh man, she's really beating herself up.

That was a tough paragraph to hear.

How can I navigate this without hating myself every day?

How can I have a stable work life when every day Mimi comes in, I'm scared she found out?

How can I go through life thinking that I'm a decent person when I'm basically lying to the person I spend the most hours in the day with?

Signed, feeling like a traitor, almost like I baited her, for butting up to my neighbor when I was the invader.

Jordan, I was thinking when I was working on on this letter, we need a word for when a Feedback Friday situation won't end.

Like when you think the doozy is over, but then it just keeps coming back, and I came up with one.

Oh, you did?

Okay, let's hear it.

A doozerang.

Oh, I like that.

A doozerang.

I know you'd like that.

Or like, yeah, it's the second beat of the conundrum.

That's too complicated.

That's too complicated, though.

I like doozerang better, actually.

I do, but I like that one, too.

Cute.

That's all I got.

Wow.

Anyway, we've hit our weekly limit on stupid ass puns, so let's try and, well, sort of hit the limit.

Let's try and catch this doozerang and yeet it back to where it belongs and just pray it doesn't come back.

Honestly, this is kind of a tough one.

I'm a little bit at a loss here, Gabe.

She didn't ask for any of this.

It was all in the rearview mirror and now she's backed into kind of an awkward corner.

So let me tackle the easy one first.

I'm not sure you can have a totally chill work life when you're panicked every day that Mimi found out and she's about to confront you and you're trying to read her facial expression before you say hello.

I think that sort of Damocles might always be hanging over your head as long as you guys work together.

But a couple things to keep in mind that might ease your stress.

The first thing is, Bob clearly has not told her yet.

He never mentioned you.

So I think there's a decent chance that he will never tell her.

I don't see why in God's name he would ever tell her.

I'm not saying you're completely out of the woods, and it doesn't mean that hiding this from her is the right thing to do.

But the longer she works there and doesn't find out, the more confident you can be that your secret is safe, I would imagine.

On the flip side, though, the longer she works there without knowing, the worse it's going to be be if she does find out.

That is true.

And thanks for punching a huge hole in my main argument.

Sorry.

I'm trying to reassure this poor woman, and you're coming up with a wrecking ball.

Old Gaby Cyrus over here?

My bad.

That's right.

Okay, well, now that that fell apart, the other thing to keep in mind is if she ever did find out, you don't know exactly how she'd react.

You're imagining the worst case scenario that she'd blame you for not telling her, that she'd feel totally betrayed, which I get.

And I think she might.

I mean, you're her friend, but I think Bob would really get the brunt of this.

He's her boyfriend.

He's the one who got involved with you.

And yeah, she might have some choice words for you.

She might be angry and hurt.

You guys might have to talk about that, but who knows?

Maybe she'd see the difficult position you were put in here through no fault of your own.

Well, through mostly no fault of your own and forgive you.

Maybe she wouldn't be that mad when she learns this is a brief flirtation that didn't escalate to anything physical.

And it, you know, was in the past.

Or she's going to be freaking mad and it'll be a little rough, but it won't be the end of the world.

And you guys will either work through it somehow or stay away from each other and just be professionals.

Yes.

And how you talk to her, if that ever does come to pass and the way you handle this whole thing, that's going to play a big role in the outcome too.

Exactly.

You just don't know how this will go.

So I would keep an eye on the tendency to imagine the absolute worst case scenario with no evidence.

I mean, I can relate.

That is my favorite hobby, but I don't think you need to necessarily do that.

Now, you said that you're not going to tell Mimi anything about Bob.

It's not your place.

So your mind is made up there.

I think that's probably right.

I do think he definitely has more of a responsibility to tell her, especially given that your emotional situationship with Bob never really blossomed into a full-fledged affair, which would change the equation for me a little bit.

But let's be clear, if you've decided that the right thing is definitely to not tell Mimi, then you're also choosing to stay in this awkward position, in which case it really is on you to make peace with that, except that some difficult conversations might result down the line and forgive yourself preemptively.

It sucks, but you got to be willing to live with the consequences, which again, are largely not your fault at this point.

Now, that might not stop you from hating yourself, but it might help you not to feel like such a POS for staying quiet.

And that's another thing.

You said you're lying to Mimi.

I get it.

You're lying by omission, but given the circumstances here, I think that's a different category of lie.

If she came to you like, did you have an emotional thing with Bob and hang out with his kids?

And you were like, what?

No, that's a lie.

That's a bald face lie.

What you're doing here is just not sharing a story that you feel is primarily not yours to share.

I'm not saying it's not dicey, but I don't think these two things are equivalent.

So in my view, you are way less of a monster than you maybe feel right now.

But Gabe, I don't know.

Now I'm going to stress her out again.

What happens when Mimi brings Bob and or their kids to some work event?

And the kids are like, hey, I remember you.

You and Daddy took us to the aquarium that day.

Oh, man.

I don't know.

Hide in the bathroom.

Run the other way.

No, flush yourself down the toilet more like.

I mean, that is serious.

Let's hope that never happens.

Oh, man.

This.

I know.

Yeah, this is really tricky because they're genuinely friends now.

I know.

It sucks.

If they were just colleagues and they were kind of neutral about each other and and they didn't have to interact very much, I would completely agree with you.

But they're tight now.

They're inseparable, she said.

I mean, another solution is just to pull back and be less close with Mimi.

And she might wonder why, but you don't have to tell her, and then at least you're not being a hypocrite.

Also, an option.

I think this ultimately comes down to the quality of their friendship and the quality also of Mimi's relationship with Bob.

Although, to be honest, that's not really our friend here's business.

If she were saying, look, turns out Mimi is amazing and she's the BFF I've always wanted and we're like sisters now and I see us being being friends forever.

That's a really hard situation.

Then I might have to disagree with you, Jordan, and say, I don't know if you can maintain that friendship and not tell her about what happened.

Same thing with Mimi and Bob.

If they're having problems, if they don't seem like the right fit long term, I don't know.

Maybe it's more okay for our friend here to tell her what happened.

Although I would really want to make sure I had a good handle on that before spilling the tea and it's still not really her business.

Yeah, but if that were the case, then it might be because he had this emotional affair with our friend.

But he might have had this emotional affair because they're not the right fit.

Or he might be the kind of guy who might have emotional affairs with a number of people because he's not really committed to his relationship with Mimi or he needs validation or he's got an ego issue or he's insecure.

I mean, I don't know.

Maybe she deserves to know.

I don't know.

Which would also make our friend here not the main villain.

Yeah, well, okay.

It's a little confusing.

It's very confusing.

I'm not sure.

Can we toss the dooserang back and just say we tried?

Is that fair?

Yeah.

Next.

Look, maybe I'm introducing an element here that is just not helpful.

I guess it depends on how much this other stuff matters to you, but I do think that the quality of your friendship with Mimi is a big factor here.

Where I'm landing on all of this, what I'm trying to say is, if you guys are crazy about each other and there's a very deep special bond between you and your friendship is more meaningful than the one that she has with Bob potentially, then you might have to come clean, although I don't know how good the prospects are for that friendship at that point.

But that might be the only way to honor a really great friendship.

I'm not sure you're there yet.

It just sounds like you guys are unusually close for colleagues.

And if you absolutely refuse to tell her, then you can't be that close with her, like Jordan said, and you have to be very thoughtful about how much contact you have and how close you guys really get.

Beyond that, if Mimi ends up finding out, then I just think you have to deal with it then.

And if that ever happens, maybe you say, look, I knew this day might come.

I've been tied up in knots about it.

I know you're probably really angry, really hurt.

I totally understand.

I thought about this a lot.

I have my reasons for not telling you myself.

And if you're open to hearing them, I would like to share them with you.

But when you're ready to talk, we can do that.

And then you guys talk it out or you don't.

And you accept the outcome, whatever it is.

And it's going to suck, but it'll be okay.

I think that's right.

I think what her letter might actually be about is learning how to surrender to an objectively bizarre and crappy situation that she has little control over.

And as we talk about all the time, learning how to tolerate the difficult feelings that might get stirred up by all this stuff coming to light.

A lot of life is just that.

Knowing you weren't entirely right, you weren't entirely wrong, but you did your best and you were exposed, but that being exposed is not fatal.

But you only learn that by going through a situation like this and finding out that you can survive and then taking the lesson and applying it forward so you don't end up in a similar situation again.

Worst case scenario, Mimi hates you.

Maybe word travels around the office.

Maybe.

In the meantime, keep breathing.

Stay true to your values.

Keep checking in with yourself about what feels right.

You always know deep down what you got to do.

And I know you'll handle it the right way or at least the least bad way.

And good luck.

You could reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

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All right, what's next?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I'm a federal employee, and less than a year ago, I started a job as a power plant operator.

Since this administration came in, they've been slashing jobs left and right.

It's now a possibility that I'm on the chopping block as well, even as a critical component of our power grid.

Which sucks because federal power plants are the most sought-after jobs in this industry, and my military service time counts toward retirement there.

My agency has offered me a resignation package that would continue to pay my salary until September of this year.

They would also allow me to work a new job at the same time.

Meanwhile, a power plant in New York City has expressed interest in me and is just waiting to see if I take this fork in the road.

If I take this resignation package, I'll have to sell my home and move my wife and myself across the country.

If I don't take it, there's a chance that I would be let go anyway.

Are there any legal options or implications I should be considering here?

What would you do?

Hedge your bets, move, and collect double double paychecks for six months?

Or stick around and take your chances as a federal employee?

Signed, a Doge Dodge and Dude, deciding what to do when I haven't got a clue, which move is the most shrewd.

Yeah, good question.

It's a tough one, man.

A lot of uncertainty here.

We're hearing from a lot of federal employees these days who are in your shoes with Doge and all that.

And they're all asking similar questions.

I'm sorry you're going through it.

I know the stress must be doing a number on you, but you're also in a better position than most, and this could work out well.

We wanted to run all this by an expert, so we reached out to Justin Schnitzer, managing partner of FedAlaw, a law firm specializing in federal employment cases.

And the first thing Justin wanted you to know was that you're probably in a high priority area of the government, so there's a strong chance you're unlikely to get cut.

In his view, it seems like the government needs people like you for national infrastructure.

Obviously, all of these are on a case-by-case basis, especially right now.

So it's hard to know who's likely to get cut.

But people working for power plants, nurses, doctors, folks like that, in Justin's experience these are people who are probably not getting cut because well it would cause serious outrage and the public needs these people in a real sense not some theoretical sense we're talking about you know keeping the lights on heating people's homes keeping cities functioning staffing hospitals no guarantees at all of course but that's something to consider now in terms of the legal stuff One thing Justin said to keep in mind is that unions are still challenging whether the administration has the authority to offer these resignation programs at all, to put people on paid leave for that amount of time and encourage them to go work while still getting paid.

Now, Justin said he doesn't know what the courts will decide there.

Apparently Congress probates the money for certain functions and generally it hasn't been appropriated to put people on long-term leave.

Justin also said there are limits to how much administrative leave they could even give someone and that's covered by statutory and regulatory provisions.

The other thing Justin would encourage you to think about is whether this resignation package includes any waivers.

For example, The agencies might say, we're offering you this deal, but you have to relinquish your right to pursue legal actions against the government in exchange for continued pay and benefits.

So if you have any potential lawsuits, you're thinking of bringing discrimination, failure to accommodate you because of a disability, stuff like that, you might have to waive any of those rights.

You didn't mention that in your letter, but it's something to think about.

But for people who think they're going to be imminently terminated and need a few months of reprieve, Justin said that it might be worth hedging their bets.

It really depends on what area of the government you're in, how you think the terminations are coming for you, if you have any rights you'd be giving away.

Justin's feeling is if you're in a position where you're not going to sue and you don't have outstanding complaints, accepting a package could very well be a good idea.

Also, and this probably doesn't apply to you, but for any other listeners who are federal employees and might be close to retirement, accepting a resignation package might be worth it if you're on the way out anyway.

But look, all the doge stuff aside, the legal stuff aside, you're facing the question that so many people at a crossroads face, which is, do I take road A or do I take road B?

when I just don't have all the information.

And there is no clear answer there.

I think the best advice we can give you is this.

First of all, you got to make peace with uncertainty and you have to start getting comfortable with making decisions on incomplete information.

You know, you can't know what Elon Musk is thinking or what your agency is planning or what New York will actually be like until you move there or any of those things.

So take stock of the information you do have and make educated assumptions and talk to as many people as possible so you can get as many opinions as possible.

But know that you'll never reach 100% certainty before making a decision.

And that is okay.

You don't need to in order to make the right choice, I promise you, because there's no perfect outcome in life anyway, right?

And the second thing you got to do is you have to get clear with yourself about what your goals are, what your needs are, what is most important to you.

I know we talk about this all the time, but it's so easy to forget.

Honestly, I would sit down with your wife, talk this out loud in detail, write down all the variables here, salary, type of work, location, stability, adventure, risk, opportunity, all of them, and factor in the stuff Justin just shared with you.

Then I would rank them in order of importance, talk through all the upsides and the downsides of each path, get clear on which benefits you want the most, which costs you can live with.

And then, yeah, you got to make a calculated decision while also listening to your gut.

I promise if you do that, you can't go wrong.

Doesn't mean sticking around or moving to New York won't be challenging.

They'll each serve up their own unique costs, I'm sure.

But I actually find that comforting in a weird way, because if you're going to pay a price either way, and if you're going to enjoy certain benefits either way, then you're a lot freer.

There's no perfect decision.

There's only a decision that reflects your interests and needs at this moment based on the information that you have.

Exactly.

And I would add that the quality of your outcome either way is really going to depend on how you navigate this, how you show up in a new job, how you collaborate with these forces in your industry, how you build relationships, what attitude you bring to this move, how you take care of your family, how you rely on them during this transition, whether you would enjoy living in New York, for example.

That is one big variable that is under your control.

And it'll play a huge role in your success either way.

So don't forget that either.

100%.

I think a lot of times people focus on the external stuff when they're trying to make the right decision, but the internal stuff is just as important, maybe even more important, because so much of life, it's not about what happens.

It's about how you react to it, right?

So salary and pension and location and risk.

Yeah, all that matters, of course.

But cultivating the right mindset, the right spirit, which includes getting comfortable with this uncertainty and learning to go with the flow to some degree, that's a superpower in situations like this.

I'm sorry you're facing all this, but I also know that these crises often reveal hidden opportunities.

So keep looking for those and trust that life might be putting you on an even better path, whichever way you decide to go.

And good luck.

Big thanks to Justin for his experience and wisdom here.

You can learn more about Justin and his work at fedalaw, that's fedelaw.com.

He practices nationwide for federal employees, and it looks like he's achieved some pretty great outcomes for his clients.

Speaking of keeping the lights on, your support of our sponsors is what does that for us.

So stick around.

We'll be right back.

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All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

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Okay, back to Feedback Friday.

All right, time for the recommendation of the week.

I am addicted to Litvilla.

Of course you are.

My recommendation of this week is Wayfinders.

So Wayfinders is a travel group, essentially, for entrepreneurs and business owners.

A travel group is kind of a, it's not quite all we do.

We have meetings and mastermind-y type stuff, and we do travel to amazing places.

You probably heard me mention some of these wild trips that I've been on in the past.

Bhutan, the Amazon, jungle, Peru, Laos, Morocco.

This year I'm heading to Patagonia.

People have asked me before, you know, what makes you go to these places?

Wayfinders, I said mastermind before.

This is not a typical annoying mastermind group.

It's not a corporate retreat.

It's more like hitting control, alt-delete on your life in some ways.

You're trekking across the Himalayas.

You meditate with monks in Bhutan, if you're into that, tracing incense routes through the Arabian desert, but you're doing it with a small, very highly curated group of founders and creators and big thinkers.

There's no touristy buses.

There's no sort of surface level networking stuff.

Real people, real conversations.

I mean, you talk more with these people on these trips because you're hiking up a mountain than you would talk to your friends and family over the course of a year, mostly.

It's really good, deep connection.

It's been awesome to be a part of it.

Gabe, you know how this is.

You and I went to North Korea together.

Wayfinders would not take us to North Korea, which is probably the right decision, but trips like that, they just bond people in a way.

that a cocktail mixer or conference could just never do.

There's just something very cool that happens when you step away from the noise, you get off the grid, you get out in nature, away from meetings and inboxes, and you're just talking to other interesting people.

Every time I come back from one of these, I feel clear and grounded and reset and excited for life.

So if that speaks to you a little bit, go check them out, way-finders.com, submit an application.

It's a process.

I have no idea how the curation works at all, but if you're a business owner or entrepreneur, I highly recommend doing it.

Everybody there is just an awesome person and I've made some lifelong friends friends in the group.

Okay.

So, Jordan, I'm not sure if I told you this, but I went to this dance workshop last weekend.

Oh, yeah.

I did see something on Instagram and I was like, okay, mental note to roast Gabe mercilessly for this later.

I literally walked in there, like, I can't wait to tell Jordan about this so he can just fillet me on the show.

It was, it was kind of peak, ridiculous, Gabe.

Yeah, it sounds like it.

Was it fun, though?

I mean, what is the problem?

I have to tell you about this experience because I can't stop thinking about it.

So, I don't know, I think you know that several months ago, I started going to these like, I don't know what to call them.

It's not a dance class where you're like in front of a mirror with choreography.

It's more just kind of like a dance party led by a fairly well-known dance instructor who's, her name is Kate.

She's from London.

She's wonderful, very unusual, very special person.

She does this cool class that's like, it's a mix of open-ended dancing, moving meditation.

And then she has a microphone.

where she's kind of like doing an improvised sermon while you're dancing.

Oh my.

One of my biggest fears until recently was dancing in front of other people, especially in the daytime.

Sober, completely sober, which, you know, like I don't really drink, so there's not much of an opportunity to cut loose or whatever.

Sure.

One of these dance classes got me over that like in 30 minutes.

Really?

Yeah, it kind of cured me of it, which has been really weirdly therapeutic and very fun.

So my friend Itai is the one who started inviting me.

And recently he told me that she was doing the same thing, but it was going to be a two-day workshop from like 11 to 5.

So it was going to be some dancing, but it was also going to be exercises and meditations, like a whole thing yeah and the theme of this weekend was zero it was like the organizing principle was like emptiness and fullness i didn't fully understand it but sure anyway we get there i've been to the studio a bunch of times i know a lot of the people but it was different this time and when we arrived in the center of the room was a huge circle like a massive hula hoop kind of okay and when we started dancing she started playing music and everyone's just doing their thing everyone is invited to dance around the void or jump into the void or just like contemplate the void.

But I was having a really rough day that day.

I injured my knee really badly a few days before.

And as you know, I have like a to-do list a mile long for the big move.

And I'm in a room full of people who are like, these people, Jordan, are the opposite of you and me in terms of just like they're kind of like grown-up theater kids.

I can see them being the opposite of me, but you are also there.

So I mean,

they're more opposite from you than they are from me at this point.

But I was definitely the out the outsider in this group.

Okay.

I mean, I don't know a lot of them, but my sense is that they're like very open, vulnerable, touchy-feely people, which was actually kind of inspiring to be around.

But they're kind of like, they seem like theater kids who grew up or summer camp kids.

I was never a summer camp kid, but they are so pumped to be there, dude.

And they're just like way more liberated than me.

They're ready to go from the moment they get there.

And I'm in this, I'm in the corner.

Like, I'm like a cat, you know, like I need to warm up a little bit.

I see.

But anyway, that day, I was particularly not feeling it and I wasn't exactly present.

So anyway, day one, after lunch, we come back and they have a circle up around the circle that I just told you about.

Yeah.

And one by one, the teacher invites us to walk into the circle and have some kind of experience or express something or leave something behind.

You have like 30 seconds to a minute to do like your little thing.

Oh, man.

You're allowed to talk, but you don't have to.

You can also just make it movement based.

I can't really even remember the prompt.

I was kind of confused.

This is my worst nightmare, by the way, drowning in a cave underwater and this.

This is why I wanted to talk to you about it because you know this about me as well.

I hate forced vulnerability.

Yes.

Hate, hate.

Same here.

This is, oh, I'm getting a little, I feel itchy thinking about having to do this.

Yeah, no, thank you.

Clearly, I like opening up when it's on my terms, but, or if I'm in a safe group, I know the people and everyone's kind of on the same frequency, but when someone else is making me do it and it's part of a formal exercise and there's some kind of expectation that you go there and you have some big experience.

No, I just shut down.

Yeah.

I felt it more profoundly that day than I ever have ever.

Like every wall in my heart goes up, you know, and I just kind of freeze.

Yeah, we had to do some of this on the Wayfinders trip that I just talked about.

Nothing like this.

I mean, these are, they're sharing circles and stuff like that.

And it's a little challenging for me sometimes and it takes me a couple of days to open up or whatever, but it actually ended up being really cool.

If you're in a group that's cool with people you trust, it can be great.

But yeah, the hula hoop dance thing, that's on another level.

But it is weird when you don't know the people and there are a lot of people because there are like 40 or 50, maybe 40 people.

That's very stressful.

And I find that people can get very performative because you have an audience then.

That's not just a small circle of people.

Yes, exactly.

So when I tell you that I was dreading my turn in this exercise, like I was in agony.

And I was like, dude, what am I going to do?

Like, can I fake a seizure and leave right now?

I mean, to be fair.

That's a great idea.

To be fair, the teacher, I just want to give her credit.

She was like, if you don't want to do it, just tap the person next to you.

You can go, which was nice.

But I didn't want to be the guy who's like, I'm not doing it because nobody else declined.

yeah but i was like what do i do what are my options here you know fling yourself from the top of the building out the window moment that seemed preferable to what i had to do so yes sitting in that circle knowing my turn was coming you know when you're sitting in the middle and you're watching each person go and as getting sweatier and sweatier

yes top five worst moments of my life for sure truly but I was really making an effort to stay open, you know, like I had all these judgments and opinions about what was happening and the people and why were they having these experiences and I wasn't feeling it.

But I was like, look, dude, you're already here.

You can decide later what to make of all this.

Just do your best, participate, try not to judge it.

Cause, you know, when you judge something before you even do it, just because you're uncomfortable, then you're guaranteed to get nothing out of it.

So I didn't want to do that.

You know, I appreciate that.

That's the right attitude since you already, you know, wasted your money on that bullshit notation.

Okay, so I'm sitting there waiting for my turn.

I'm having a low-grade panic attack.

For sure, man.

Yeah.

People are going in there and they are doing these interesting dances and having these super, seemingly super profound experiences.

I'm not going to say much about them because I, you know, I want to be respectful to people, whatever, but just like, it's out there stuff.

It's almost like, I would say it's akin to, what is that called?

Chair therapy?

I don't know.

What is that?

When people like yell at an absent parent in an empty chair as part of those like work, it was kind of like that.

Oh, gosh.

But anyway, finally, it's my turn.

And I'm like, what am I going to do?

I hate this.

I hate this so much.

I don't want, I could barely dance a few weeks ago and now I have to do this in front of all these people.

Right.

So I walk into the circle.

I am half dissociated at this point.

Like I'm watching myself from the ceiling.

Out of body experience.

Yes.

Humiliated.

And I can feel everyone's eyes on me and I'm kind of mortified.

And I'm just like, well, I'm not going to pretend that I'm having some deep experience I'm not having.

So I just walked into the circle and I just stood there.

It was probably the most boring thing that anyone had seen that day.

And I just like closed my eyes and I just, I thought about my trip and how grateful I am to be doing this and, you know, like stepping into a new chapter.

And, you know, just like, how long do I have to stand here?

So it looks like I gave this a shot, but not so long that I embarrass myself unnecessarily, you know?

Yeah.

Just show your work at least.

Get some points for that.

Just long enough so people don't think you're being a dick.

I can relate.

Yes.

And then in your head, you're like, 10 more seconds?

Now five more.

Now I'm just done.

I'm done.

I'm done.

Exactly.

Yeah.

It was like writing down the equations in physics when you didn't know how to do the problems and you're like, oh, he's going to give me some points for this.

Right.

And then I just capped it off with a little yoga nama stay hands and bowed my head.

Always a safe bet.

Always a fan favorite.

That's right.

You definitely read the room on that one.

And then I went back to my seat and stared at the floor, just avoiding eye contact.

My face was beat red, I'm sure, while the rest of the people went.

And I left that first day in a really weird mood.

Like I was a little angry and I was kind of just vaguely, not vaguely, pretty uncomfortable and disappointed.

I was like, why is it, what am I missing here?

By the way, I had half a mind to not come back for day two.

Yeah, I would have.

I mean, well, what am I saying?

I never would have gone to day one, but yeah, I get it.

I get not wanting to come back for day two.

But Etai did tell me when I left day one last year, I also didn't want to come back, and I'm so glad I came back for day two.

So I was like, interesting.

That's good data because he and I are wired pretty similarly.

So I wake up the next morning, my knee is feeling better, I'm feeling a little better, and we get there, we start dancing, which is my favorite part.

It's way more fun than the exercises.

But then they break for lunch again, and we come back, and the room is different this time.

Oh, no.

Now the circle void thing is set up vertically.

So it's like a ring you have to walk through.

And they have a circle up again.

And one by one, everyone has to walk through it and say, I am blank.

Like something, fill in the blank, whatever it is.

Out of the pan and into the fire.

I would have preferred to be taken out of a boiling pan and thrown into a raging fire than have a blanket.

Yeah, you still have the window option that I mentioned earlier.

Fling right through it.

I would literally rather do any of those things than walk through a make-believe portal and declare my truth or whatever.

However, hippie and crazy you think I am, this is not my jam.

Again, literally a nightmare.

I got to say, this is a really nice antidote to all your woo-woo, hippie-dippy stuff on the show.

I would have thought you'd take to this kind of thing like a duck to water.

Honestly, I thought you'd be like, I had the most refreshing experience.

I got to interpretive dance my way through some stuff I was working on.

The dance party stuff I'm into, but the artificiality of some of the exercises is hard.

It's impossible for me.

It's funny because you and I both have done much more intense stuff than this this in much weirder places.

But this was by far one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

So again, we go around in a circle and again, I'm panicking and people are walking through the portal void.

Like, it's such a caricature of what you're imagining.

Like, again, I don't want to say specifics, but people are saying things like, you know, I am healed.

I am, you know, worthy of love.

I am ending this generational trauma or whatever.

I mean, like tears, laughter.

Okay.

It is raw.

It's very raw in the room at this point.

But I also feel like you're describing your order at Cafe Gratitude, if people know this.

That's hilarious.

That's actually what the teacher said to her.

Again, to her credit, she was aware of how absurd this was on some level, which is one of the things I like about her.

But she did say, I know this is going to sound like we're going to Cafe Gratitude.

Yes.

But this is the exercise.

So Cafe Gratitude, for all those who don't live in LA, which is most of you, it's this kind of like, Gabe, is it fair to say, bougie vegan restaurant where all the dishes are named, and I quote, I am something.

So you'll, instead of saying like, I'll have the seitan fake egg white omelette, you say, I am abundant, I am humble, and I want the, I mean, I am green juice or whatever it is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I am whole is another one.

Yeah.

It's so cringy.

And so the food's pretty good and the ambiance is pretty dope.

And that's why you put up with the dumb names, but it is, yeah, cringe is exactly what it is.

They also do the question of the day there.

Do you know about that?

I do, where the waitress is like, tells you to basically meditate on something.

The place is so extra.

The waiter server, I should say, comes to your table.

They're like, the question of the day is, what are you manifesting?

Yeah, what are you manifesting?

What are you creating?

I'm creating an appetite, Luna.

Now, let me order the abundant bowl and get on with my life.

And can I have some coffee?

Do you still have coffee here?

Or is it going to be made out of like a random milk?

But also, sometimes the waiters don't ask you the question of the day unless you ask them for it, which I actually do appreciate.

Some of them are over it.

That waiter's getting a 20% tip just for skipping that BS.

The question of the day, no, you're just hungry?

Okay.

Yeah, cool, man.

What you want?

Funny thing about Cafe Gratitude, a barista there once offered to read my tarot cards.

Of course.

Unprompted.

Of course.

That is the least surprising thing I've ever heard about Cafe Gratitude.

So

people are walking through the void.

They're healing their generational trauma and you're slowly unlacing your shoelaces or what?

Basically.

Oh, oh, I almost forgot this.

I must have blocked this part out.

When you walk through the portal and then you say your thing, on the other side, one of the facilitators hands you a red rose.

Uh-huh.

Like, well done and welcome to your new reality.

And then you take your place in the circle again with your rose.

A rose?

Just for like maximum embarrassment?

What is this?

The bachelor?

Just let me say my stupid little catchphrase and dissociate in the corner in peace just to like reflect on all my poor choices leading up to this moment.

I don't need a Valentine's Day gift for phoning it in.

Yeah.

It was sweet, but it wasn't, it's just made the whole thing worse for me.

There's also something about being handed a red rose as a man.

I know I have antiquated gender ideals or whatever, but I can't explain why.

It's just vaguely humiliating somehow.

I don't know.

I get that.

It's weird, though.

We should be able to enjoy pretty things as men, but you just feel ridiculous holding flowers as a man.

Sure.

Unless you're an actor in a play or something.

And even then, I would feel weird.

Well, also, didn't the definitely not gay fascist Indian guy hand some flowers to the super openly gay ballerina on the date that they actually

had no problem with it.

Maybe we should learn something from him.

That was a few months ago on Feedback Friday, for those of you who don't catch the reference.

Okay, so if you're an actor, though, you would have loved this workshop, which is why this stuff happens in LA.

That's true.

That's true.

I'm not an actor, so that might explain it.

So again, though, this is the reason I wanted to tell you about this, is that most of the participants seem to be having these very real, intense experiences.

Like I said, they're laughing, they're crying, people are shouting, and I'm just standing there.

I'm like, am I being punked or something?

Like, I'm so confused.

Why are you guys able to do this so easily?

Did this workshop start a week ago and I missed the first six days?

Right.

I know what you mean.

Yeah.

Because all of you are like at the emotional finish line and I'm still trying to figure out what the exercise is.

It was strange.

I know exactly what you mean.

Some people's emotions are very close to the surface, right?

I am not one of those people, surprise, surprise.

I don't think you are either, especially.

You know, you're in touch with your feelings.

You're vulnerable a lot of the time, but you're not one of those people who's like, watch me cry about my withholding dad in public.

I need to release.

I feel like you're pretty judicious about who you share that stuff with.

Yeah, I'm just not that way.

But the other people did seem more that way.

They were more keen.

So, and look, if this workshop is helpful for them, I think it's great.

It's wonderful.

I just couldn't get, I couldn't even start.

And that might be a me thing.

But what gets a little weird, though, is you see other people really go for it.

Like they swing for the fences with their parts, right?

And the facilitators and the other participants light up.

Like people are really like excited and proud of them.

And they're like super supportive and validating.

But meanwhile, all I can think of is like, I am pre-sorry for how bad mine is going going to be.

Like, I can already tell you're going to be disappointed with mine.

Yeah, but that's part of my beef with programs like this.

The barometer isn't always value or growth or authenticity.

It's, did you say the super crazy thing loud enough or go on about the horrible thing long enough?

Whenever I've had to do stuff like this, I've noticed that as long as you use a certain kind of language and you commit hard enough, you get validation from the other participants and the facilitators.

And it creates this social pressure to have a similar experience.

Yes, the social pressure is part of what I was struggling with.

And I was kind of aware of that.

But again, you have to understand, I was working so hard to stay open while I'm having this

thoughts.

I get it.

You don't want to write the whole thing off from the start.

That's probably wise.

Okay.

So finally, it's my turn.

I walk across the room to the portal thing, again, panicking until the last possible second about what I'm going to say.

I'm racking my brain.

Like, what is it going to be?

What is it going to be?

And I walk through the void thing and I say, I am available.

I am available?

That is

so lame.

But I literally couldn't think of anything.

And I was just like, I'm available for whatever the world wants to, I don't know.

I wonder what that bowl is at Cafe Gratitude.

I am available.

I'll take the available.

Can you hold the cheese?

Yeah.

Yeah, that's probably just like a bowl of brown rice and some steamed veggies with lots of empty space or something.

If my inner state in that moment was any indication.

The only thing I can think of right now are gross jokes that are way out of character and off-brand for this podcast.

But yeah, the I am available is definitely the blandest thing on the menu.

What I was trying to say was, look, I don't know how I feel.

Nothing has changed for me this weekend.

I'm just open to whatever life throws at me, including this weird workshop.

You know, like I'm receptive.

Ah, that's worse.

It's even worse, but it is in line with the things I was thinking about saying that are off-brand for this podcast.

Anyway, I go through, the facilitator gives me a nice smile.

She and I are buds, so I didn't take it personally, but I, like I said, mine was not her favorite part of the day.

I knew that.

And I take my rose, which I definitely did not earn, by the the way, which only made holding it feel worse.

And I sit back down and immediately I'm like, did it just sound like I was saying I'm single?

Like, did I just proclaim to the room like, hey, ladies, I'm available.

Yes, ladies.

Anyway.

You don't know how I said it.

So you actually don't know.

That's true.

That's true.

No, the receptive part was also a little bit more.

Well, it was a very masculine, I am available.

Just for the record.

I believe you.

So cringe.

I'm having second, I just have to tell you, I'm having a second wave of dance shame as I'm telling you about all this.

But anyway, after all that, the teacher plays some chill music and everyone's invited to just kind of like dance with their roses and hang out.

90% of the room is literally swaying with their roses, looking at them, lost in a reverie.

And I'm just like, yeah, I can't do this.

Like, I will do the exercises.

I will dance like an idiot.

I am not doing a waltz with a rose that was given to me for walking through a circle

and saying something as dumb as I am available.

I have some dignity.

So I just

well, after the fact, I decided I did, in fact.

So I just sat on the ground and stretched for a while.

And then one of the facilitators did a guided meditation, which was by far my favorite part of the whole weekend.

It was really good.

And then we circled up for some final words, which I have to say were very sweet.

And then I went home.

And I was weirdly happy that I went.

It was definitely an experience.

And I do think it forced me to get uncomfortable, which is always interesting, right?

But I felt kind of sad and guilty afterward.

It's hard to explain.

I just sat, I felt sad for myself that I couldn't enjoy something like this.

Less so after telling you this story, because I'm seeing your face and it's like making me feel a little bit better, but I also felt a little bit guilty.

I don't know if you can relate, but when you do these things and you don't get something out of it, you kind of feel guilty not being a good sport.

You got to play full on, which is why I avoid putting myself in these situations entirely.

Yeah, but it is a tough feeling.

You know, I kept asking myself for the rest of the week, like, was that workshop dumb?

Or was it interesting, but it just wasn't for me?

Or am I just way too cynical and defended to actually get something out out of an experience like that?

I mean, those are fair questions, but everything you're describing sounds patently ridiculous.

I would have almost certainly walked out halfway through day one, like, oh, lunch break, see you guys on Monday.

I just felt like I failed.

Or I don't know.

I spent the whole weekend judging and cutting down these people who in so many ways are braver than I am.

So who am I to judge them?

I get that, but I don't know, man.

That's not the conclusion I draw from all this.

It just sounds like you didn't vibe with this particular group or curriculum and these exercises.

I mean, my threshold for this stuff is way lower than yours, but I just don't see how any of this is that valuable other than pushing people outside their comfort zones, which I mean, cool, you're uncomfortable, but that doesn't mean you've healed your mother wound or your ancestor's trauma or anything.

Like you could go for a long run that's outside your comfort zone and you're outside your comfort zone there too, vomiting on the side of the Santa Monica pier.

I'm with you, man.

Forced vulnerability, not really a good method for getting people to truly open up.

That's been my experience anyway.

And it's often misused by like culti self-help groups.

Yeah, and that's kind of where I landed with all this at the end of the day.

It's perfectly fine to not want to open up and be vulnerable on someone else's terms.

Like you're allowed to decide how open you want to be.

And if you don't want to be, it doesn't make you a bad person.

You're not necessarily being superior.

Right.

Although I did feel like I might have been indulging that a little bit here and there.

But it definitely doesn't mean that you're like incapable of real connection or intimacy, which is how I felt in the moment when I went home.

100%.

Hey, but I get why it's awkward to stay connected to that in a setting like this because you can easily be that guy who seems like an a-hole when they invite you up to do your thing and you're like, pass.

Right.

But not wanting to open up when someone makes you, interestingly, that does kick up a lot of data about yourself.

And some of that data I did find useful to look at.

Sure.

Okay.

Both can be true, I suppose.

Yeah, I guess so.

I feel like it was one of those experiences where the thing they wanted me to get out of it, I definitely did not get out of it.

Okay.

But I got all these other things that they didn't intend, or maybe did they?

I don't know.

Dance is crazy.

Anyway, I just had to tell you about that because looking back, it was pretty hilarious.

And it also brought up some interesting stuff around vulnerability, which we talk about on the show all the time.

No, it's great.

Otherwise, I would be like, Jace, cut this entire thing.

But no, the vulnerability notes, it's true.

I mean, patently ridiculous and undeniably cringy, but yeah, it's great stuff.

I also think what you said is important.

Struggling in one context, that doesn't necessarily mean much.

It's important not to draw too many conclusions about yourself based on one experience.

You felt like a cynical shutdown monster that weekend or whatever, but we both know that that's not who you are.

In another setting, another weekend, different exercises, different gabe.

And I see that with myself all the time.

And it doesn't mean I'm not making progress or open new things or whatever.

But for the record, I will bring this up from time to time and I will be roasting you for this for a while.

Yeah, totally.

Great.

Fair as fair.

I mean, I brought it up, so I have to live with the consequences now.

Go back and check out the Teagan Broadwater episodes if you haven't done so yet.

The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

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Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks.

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My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sedlauskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

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And we'll see you next time.

You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about how sanctions work and whether or not they're effective.

At the base level, a sanction, which is a law or regulation that is intended to disallow access to the U.S.

financial system or to U.S.

goods or to services from U.S.

citizens, is a sanction.

People want to hold dollars, they want access to the U.S.

system, they want to list on the New York Stock Exchange, right?

These are real elements of power in a global environment where money, power, economic influence is a part of competition and warfare.

I often said at the Treasury Department, our job strategically was to make it harder, costlier, and riskier for America's enemies to raise and move money around the world.

But that's the essence of this power, and it sits between the talking of diplomacy and the hard power of our military.

And that's why people resort to it so often.

But I do think there are going to be challenges fundamentally to U.S.

predominance in this space.

Challenges to the dollar, challenges to the payment systems, and challenges to the notion that this is the safest, most secure place to hold your money, to invest in, and most attractive place because of our capital markets, rule of law, etc.

That's why I think some of these state actors have an interest in undermining the credibility of our institutions.

Like it or not, the economic and financial domain is a domain of conflict and competition.

Do you want to be legitimate and be able to operate in the global system?

To learn how the U.S.

wields its financial power against terrorists, rogue states, and global crime syndicates, check out episode 863 on the Jordan Harbinger Show with Juan Zarate.

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