1226: James Kimmel, Jr. | No Even Scores in the Science of Revenge

At Grocery Outlet, we are turning up the cheer with your chance to win free groceries for a year.

That's $6,000 in Grocery Outlet gift cards.

From October through December, one lucky winner will score the grand prize each month.

Plus, four more monthly winners get a $500 gift card.

Make your holiday shopping pay off.

Download the Grocery Outlet app and scan your wow card every time you shop for your chance to win free groceries for a year.

No purchase necessary, one entry per day, restrictions apply.

Visit groceryoutlet.com for details.

Grocery Outlet Bargain Market.

Are you ready to take your small biz to the next level?

At the UPS store, we have the key to unlock a world of possibilities.

We'll sign for your packages and protect them from porch pirates.

We'll send texts straight to your phone so you're in the loop for new deliveries and give your small biz the street credit deserves with a real street address.

So what are you waiting for?

Most locations are independently owned.

Product services, pricing, and hours of operation may vary.

See Center for Details.

The UPS store.

Be unstoppable.

Come into your local store today.

Coming up next on the Jordan Harbinger Show.

The addiction circuitry, that's the nucleus dorsal stratum.

Those are the pleasure, craving, and habit formation areas of the brain that are activated for drug and alcohol addiction.

So it's the same neurocircuitry.

And then as part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex that is there to stop you from doing things.

that lead to negative consequences.

If that's inhibited or hijacked, then you may go out on a revenge-seeking binge that leaves your fantasy behind and becomes a real-life revenge attack.

Welcome to the show.

I'm Jordan Harbinger.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional organized crime figure, journalist, turned poker champion, cold case homicide investigator, or hostage negotiator.

And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I always suggest our starter packs.

These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology, geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more.

That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show.

Just visit jordanharbinger.com/slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.

Today on the show, revenge.

It feels good until it doesn't.

We've all fantasized about it, right?

The ex who wronged us, the boss who humiliated us, the guy who cut us off in traffic, and in that split second of imagined payback, we feel powerful, righteous, maybe even a little bit alive.

But according to my guest today, revenge doesn't just scratch an itch.

It feeds an addiction.

one that can hijack your brain, destroy your relationships, and in extreme cases, fuel wars, terrorism, and even genocide.

Dr.

James Kimmel Jr.

is a Yale researcher, lawyer, and expert on what he calls revenge addiction.

He argues that retaliatory behavior activates the same neural pathways as cocaine, gambling, and social media, the dopamine hits, the craving, the withdrawal, all of it.

And he's seen it ruin lives firsthand, from violent offenders to everyday people who can't stop replaying old grudges.

We'll dig into why revenge feels so intoxicating, why it's hard to resist, and how our brains can literally become dependent on payback.

We'll explore how men and women experience vengeance differently, why mass shooters and extremist groups often share the same psychological profile as addicts, and how our movies, media, and politics all feed the cycle.

And yeah, we're going to talk about forgiveness too, not in a kumbaya, let it go kind of way, but as a neurological detox, the only known treatment for revenge addiction.

This conversation gets a little dark, it gets personal, and it might just make you question how often you've confused justice with revenge.

So, let's get into it.

Here we go with Dr.

James Kimmel.

This is a bit of a juicy one, man.

The science of revenge.

It's almost like a taboo topic.

It's kind of a vice.

I have to slash hate to admit.

I suppose I could be vengeful sometimes.

I fantasize about it.

I don't actually do anything.

Does that make me a better person or just a more wimpy person?

I don't know.

What do you think?

Maybe we start there.

That's an interesting place to start.

I'm not going to judge whether it makes you better or worse, but I will say this, probably about 95% of people, according to studies that have been undertaken, will reveal that 95% of people will report that they have revenge desires and revenge fantasies.

You're in the vast majority.

What's weird about it, though, is I'm so angry at so-and-so about something legitimate.

If they got hit by a garbage truck, I wouldn't care.

That's actually not true.

Like as soon as I tell that to myself, I know that that's not true.

And it's not that I secretly like this person.

I still might hate them, but this is going to make me sound like a psychopath, but here we are.

I actually would rather save their life so they feel even worse.

Like, oh man, that guy I just did that thing to, he actually pushed me out of the way of the garbage truck.

I'm the bad guy.

He is a good person.

Like, I almost want to give them a kidney and be like, ha.

Now I'm inside you forever and you owe me one and you can never repay me.

That's how good of a person I am.

Like I have, it's like a weird inverse.

What's the opposite of revenge?

What is the opposite opposite of it?

Yeah, the opposite might be forgiveness, right?

It might be forgiving the person who wronged you rather than trying to make them suffer.

That's no fun.

Revenge means inflicting pain upon someone who you perceive has inflicted pain on you.

Giving them your kidney to save your life, not an act of revenge, even though.

You might be thinking about it in that way, going, ha ha, now you'll owe me for the rest of your life, but not really revenge-seeking there.

Yeah, I don't know.

It's complicated, right?

Because of course that's not the only reason I would do it.

I would like to do something like that so I could reinforce that I'm a good person or whatever.

I actually have a weird fantasy of giving somebody my kidney.

Not a bad person.

Ideally, it's somebody in my family or something like that.

But what a cool thing you could do for someone is to do something like that.

And I have no idea why I have the desire to actually do this because it's like horrific surgery.

The recovery, I assume, is brutal.

You're on medication probably.

It's horrible by all accounts, right?

You would only do it for somebody you really love.

But I'm also like, oh man, what an honor to be able to do something like that.

This has nothing to do with revenge, but it occurred to me just because when I was reading about this, revenge usually involves you want to humiliate somebody.

You want somebody to die or be injured because of you.

And I'll have a flash of that, but I would love to be able to do something so good for somebody like that that they actually change their ways forever.

That's the fantasy, maybe.

You do something so loving that they actually wake up and they become a good person.

It's totally Disney and ridiculous and probably not realistic at all.

I love that, actually.

And you don't hear a lot of people voice that, let's put it this way.

But I think maybe more than a minimal amount of people think about it from time to time in different ways.

We all want to be a hero, or at least many of us want to be a hero.

And that's a heroic act, what you've just described there.

But it still seems selfish because, yes, I'm doing it for them, but I'm also like, look at the halo around my head after having done this amazing thing.

It's still totally self-serving, even if the side effect is like, okay, fine, you're not going to die early from kidney disease, whatever.

Look at me.

Once I'm going to be able to do that, there's a bit of narcissism in there, maybe, perhaps.

You know, we could go into that, but on the revenge scale, that would be very low because you're actually helping someone instead of hurting them.

So, this might be a dumb question.

Why do we want revenge?

There's not really any value inherent to it.

My life doesn't improve if somebody who I think is a bastard gets hit by a car.

yet many of us crave things like that, right?

We want our ex-boyfriend who cheated on us to get beat up or worse, right?

We want that.

But your life doesn't improve because, in fact, it might even get worse if it's also the father of your child.

But you still, you're like, I wouldn't hate it if you got hit by a taxi.

Yeah, well, you're talking about somewhat two different things there.

Schadenfreude, which is getting gratification from someone else's suffering that you didn't cause, someone that you maybe you envy or you despise, and they finally get theirs, but it had nothing to do with you giving it to them.

You didn't hurt them, but you learn that some bad fate has befallen them.

That's the idea of Schadenfreude, and they're related to revenge, but revenge seeking is about you being the instrument of their suffering.

Why do we do that is your question.

Why would we want to make someone else suffer?

And we do that because it makes us feel

better, just the way drugs or alcohol make us feel better.

That's what the new neuroscience is showing us is that when we're in pain, we feel victimized or we feel humiliated, betrayed, shamed, insulted, disrespected, any of those.

We feel that as a physical pain inside our brain and our brain wants that pain to stop.

And the most immediate way to achieve that is to get a dopamine rush.

And that's what we get.

And we activate the pleasure and reward circuitry of addiction to get it.

And so we really do feel better temporarily.

It's short, but it's a short high.

It's a powerful high.

And for some people, it's a high that they want again and again and again.

It can become addictive.

You touched on something interesting is that we're feeling hurt and we want a dopamine rush to intercept that hurt.

And that actually makes a lot of sense where you see people who are

I don't know, let's say they were like really bullied a lot as a kid and now they're like older and they're making OnlyFans porn and they're having all this weird sexual stuff.

And you're like, what?

Where did that come from?

Were you molested as a kid?

They're like, no.

Well, why are you doing all this stuff that hurts yourself?

They're doing it out of pain.

It makes total sense.

I just figured it had to be related to that.

And now the dopamine thing that you're saying, they're probably thinking back to all the pain, the unresolved pain they had as a kid.

And they're like, oh, I'm going to do some other sort of adventurous sexual thing.

And that's going to give me this dopamine rush.

And it's going to make me forget that I get beat up every day as a kid.

My parents didn't care.

Is that related?

I don't know that that is because, you know, unless they're feeling like they want revenge against themselves, in other words, they've disappointed themselves, they believe that they've committed wrongs or sins and they feel like they would feel better if they punished themselves for their prior bad acts, then that might be an act of self-revenge.

But otherwise, not really revenge-seeking because they're not trying to hurt someone for the pain that's been inflicted on them, right?

So it's a little bit different.

I didn't mean revenge seeking.

I meant more the dopamine interrupting the pain response that the person is having.

Yeah, I don't know about that's an interesting question.

And I don't know if we have studies that show that you're going to get at that dopamine rush in that way.

What we do know is when you have this pain of victimization and injustice, you've experienced an injustice and you want that pain to stop.

Evolution has made it an adaptive strategy for us going back to like the Pleistocene era or the ice age that we experience enormous pleasure from inflicting pain upon the hurt of the person that has wronged us or their proxy.

It could even be a proxy for that person if you can't get at or it's too dangerous to get at the person who really hurt you.

I see.

So this is a very specific key for a very specific lock, right?

This is not just, I need to generally feel dopamine because I've been hurt.

This is I need to feel a specific dopamine rush resulting from an act that I do to a person who hurt me.

That's, again, a very specific key for a very specific lock, like that you cannot fit the square peg through the round hole.

It's not going to work to give you the same kind of rush.

I think that's correct, but I would say that it's a lock that has many holes in it.

And the reason is many places to insert that key because we, throughout our lives, we experience grievances, which is what we're talking about, daily, hourly, almost, in all sorts of ways.

And sometimes we imagine them.

We can imagine grievances.

We can experience real grievances.

There is no panel of judges about whether something that's a grievance for you or a sense of injustice or humiliation or shame would be for another million people who witnessed or experienced the same thing.

It's a big, broad lock, and we experience victimization all throughout our lives, all the time.

And then the question is, what happens when all of these infinite number of grievances are flowing into that same addiction neurocircuitry of pleasure and craving?

But the thing that unleashes that pleasure and craving is hurting other people, inflicting pain on other people.

That's what revenge is about.

And for a lot of people, it becomes the source of almost all forms of human violence.

Revenge is the root cause.

If you're looking at what is the root cause of almost every form of human violence, it is revenge seeking.

That includes bullying on playgrounds, intimate partner violence, street and gang violence, mass shootings, genocide, torture, terrorism, war, all of it.

At the root of almost every one of those incidents, who we see as the perpetrator now, feeling victimized first.

And now they're seeking justice in the form of revenge in order to make themselves feel better.

It's interesting because you see, there's a lot to unpack here, but right, terrorism, it makes complete sense.

You have a group that's been oppressed, or the Kurds, for example, in eastern Turkey or whatever, and they form a terror cell and they set up bombs in Istanbul or something like that.

Or there's other examples right now that I'm not even going to bring up because I don't want 8,000 emails from people shooting me the nuance of whatever their pet thing is with this cause.

But you see this a lot with terrorism.

You also see fake victimization or like manufactured victimization.

I mean, if you read the history of Germany, for example, they were actually bent over a barrel with the Treaty of Versailles, World War I, right?

But then Hitler wasn't just like, hey, we got to come back from this.

It was like, lean into it, right?

I want everybody in this new generation who wasn't even alive then to really feel how humiliated our whole country was as a result of this.

And it was like Hitler knew.

that you could just push that button.

It was a vending machine that had an infinite money glitch, right?

He could just keep hitting that victimization button.

You see that in a lot of modern conflicts as well.

Even the Chinese to a certain extent have kind of a thing where they're like, the whole world has looked down on us.

So now we have to show them how great we are.

And that involves some savory stuff like technological advancement.

It involves some other unsavory stuff, like whatever the CCP happens to have on the docket for a lot of the places that it has plans for.

So like you really do see the victimization revenge plot line play out on the world stage.

It's not just this guy stole my girlfriend and I'm upset about it.

This has like a serious scaling ability.

Right.

And that's been going on throughout human history, or at least recorded human history.

And we know that, just as you said, Jordan, that imagined grievances trigger real revenge desires with real world revenge effects like violence and war.

So if it's real enough in your head to be triggering some type of revenge desire, revenge craving, then it's real enough that you have to take it seriously.

And we all have to take it seriously.

It doesn't matter whether it was just your imagination and you're the only person on the planet who imagines it, or as you mentioned with Hitler, we had recently the Stop the Steel myth, but Hitler spread the stab-in-the-back myth, which was that politicians in Germany and the Jews betrayed Germany.

into entering into the Treaty of Versailles, paying these immense reparations, losing part of their country, and humiliating the German populace, and in particular the German soldiers who had just fought World War I to what they believed was going to be a victory, and it ended up being an armistice and them being blamed for the start and the perpetration of that entire war.

Yeah, the history stuff we can really dive into, but I think let's stick with some of the addiction stuff, I think, because that's maybe more in line with the theme of the show.

Although I will note that the book has historical examples of revenge being played out on the world stage from Mao to Stalin to Hitler, if people are really into that.

And you dedicate a significant amount of time.

It's not just the head nod that we are doing here on the show.

And we'll link to the book in the show notes.

Please use our links if you buy books from the show because it helps support the show.

So tell me how you got interested in the topic of revenge because you have your own air quotes villain origin story that you told us in the book.

And I'd love for you to recount that for us.

Yeah, maybe it's a John Wick story, and it's pretty close in a lot of ways.

It is a John Wick story.

That's funny.

When I was 12 years old and my parents moved my family from a suburban house out into the country onto my great-grandfather's 200-acre farm, I wanted to befriend the kids around me who lived on other neighboring farms.

And those guys weren't having it.

You know, I was just descended into their lives and we didn't make our living from the land.

I hadn't grown up there.

And they didn't want to welcome me into their community.

And the harder I tried, the more they resented it.

And that eventually turned into bullying.

And the bullying turned from words as I got older into my middle and upper teen years into small and then more significant physical acts of violence.

Until one night at my house, my folks and my brother and I were all asleep.

And we were awakened to the sound of a gunshot and ran to the windows, looked outside, checked to see what was going on.

And I saw a pickup truck owned by one of these guys who had been tormenting me taking off down the road from my house.

We walked around, checked the place out, didn't see anything, and eventually went back to bed.

One of my jobs in the morning before going to school was to feed and water the animals.

We had a small herd of Black Angus cattle, some pigs, and a beautiful beagle hunting dog named Paula.

And when I went to her pen, which was attached to the barn, to feed and water her that morning, I found her lying dead with a bullet hole in her head and a pool of blood.

Yeah, that's disgusting.

Look, bullying is one thing, but looking back on this in 2025, does that not seem completely psycho to you to kill someone's dog?

Like, I get spray painting loser on the side of the barn might have been like, hey, wow, that's pretty bad.

But to shoot someone's dog, animal abuse is like a hallmark trait of a psychopathic future serial killer.

But I want to say this was in the early 1980s and it was in farm country.

That's what I was going to ask.

And I'm not trying to excuse what they did.

It was horrific.

And it was my dog.

And it was so not okay.

It is psychopath, but it feels like that more now than it did then, especially in farm country where animals are viewed differently.

They're not personified the way that they are now as pets.

So maybe in that sense, I don't want to be too quick to judge them as sociopaths.

I would absolutely judge them, however, as revenge addicts.

I believe they felt aggrieved by my presence and my efforts and whatever else was going on in their lives.

They decided to try to make a point with me through my dog, which to me fits a little bit more than the sociopath narrative.

But regardless of what it was, it was horrific, shouldn't have happened.

We called the police.

The police took a report, but they weren't going to do anything at the time, which kind of also echoes towards a different period of time.

I think more often than not today, police would absolutely be going and visiting.

those people and their parents and going, what the hell did you just do?

And why is this happening?

And it better never happen again.

But at that time, it was, we'll take the report.

You're on record.

If it escalates, God forbid, we'll be more proactive at that point.

Like, call us when they shoot you instead of shooting your dog is kind of what it's like.

What is the escalation?

Yeah.

Call us if it escalates.

They came onto my property armed with a lethal weapon and shot my dog.

If you do that in San Jose, California in 2025, you're getting a visit and you're getting dragged out of your house by the cops.

I would like to think.

Anyway.

Yeah, I would think you're arrested and you're spending a little bit of time in jail at least.

But back then, not so much.

And so about two or three weeks pass and I find myself home alone at night.

My folks were out somewhere.

My brother was away as well.

And I hear a vehicle come to a stop in front of our house.

We lived on a one-lane country road, so that wouldn't have been a common occurrence.

So I get up to look outside.

You know, it's pitch black out to see what's going on.

And I see this same pickup truck again.

And then immediately thereafter, there's a flash and an explosion.

And the escalation turns out to be they just blew up our mailbox, blew it off the post.

But with that, that wasn't an animal or worse, thankfully, but that was as much as I could take after all these years of abuse.

And I've been probably shooting guns since I was about eight years old on this farm.

And we had lots of guns for hunting.

My dad had a loaded revolver that he kept in a nightstand for personal protection.

I ran upstairs.

I grabbed that gun out of his nightstand, ran back downstairs, out the house, and jumped in my mother's car.

And I went off after these guys through the dark and the night, just shouting and rage and screaming at the top of my lungs to try and catch them.

So speaking of psycho,

side note, again, in 2025, if somebody blows up your mailbox, call the postal inspector.

You think, oh, the postal inspector, big whoop.

Those people do not.

F around.

They're damn serious about you getting your mail and nobody messing with it.

If somebody blows up your mailbox, you think, oh, it's just the mailbox.

It's just some kids.

No, the ATF is coming and the postal inspector is coming and they're busy, but this is their time to shine.

They're like, somebody blew up a mailbox with an explosive.

They're not just stealing mail.

They will track them down mercilessly.

It's funny to think because you think postal inspector must be where like meter maids go to retire, right?

Like, no, these people are dead serious.

And so, yeah, no need to chase them with your own gun.

Have the federal government do it because they love putting people away for that.

There's more than one guy who's in prison right now who is shocked that he got put away by a 4'11 postal inspector who made it her life's mission to track his ass down and throw him in the federal penitentiary where he can't get out on early release.

No parole.

That is definitely better advice than getting your own gun and going after someone.

I 100% agree.

And for kids listening to this right now, you really should pay attention.

That's right.

But since you're not doing this interview from jail, I'm guessing you didn't catch them or tell us what happened after this.

No, I did catch them.

I eventually cornered them against their barn on one of their farm properties.

And so the scene is their pickup truck is pointed at their barn wall and my car is behind theirs with my bright beams on.

And I see three or four heads inside the truck.

They start slowly getting out of the truck.

And there are, like I said, three or four of them.

They're squinting back through my headlights, trying to figure out who had just chased them down their one-lane country road.

And at that point, what was clear to me is that they were not armed in the sense that they had no weapon in their hands.

They might have had guns or at least whatever that explosive was they just used in their truck, but they had nothing in their hands.

And they couldn't have known at the time that I had a gun or necessarily who I was.

It's unclear if they could have recognized that car, you know, my mother's car.

Maybe they were thinking it was her.

Maybe they were thinking it was me.

Who knows?

But what was clear to me is that I had the element of surprise, right?

I had the gun.

They didn't.

And it was kind of go time.

I had put up with so much abuse and I wanted them badly.

So I opened the door.

I grabbed the gun.

I start to step outside.

And as I, you know, put my leg through the opening, I just get this flash insight inspiration kind of moment where I kind of project and can see my future and realize that the guy who just driven down down that road, me, would not be able to go back to who he was.

I'd have a whole different identity after this.

I'd have to know myself as a killer if I survived it.

I might be hurt or killed myself.

I might spend years, decades, or longer in a prison.

And I knew that these were not things that I had ever identified myself with.

I had been raised better than that.

I didn't want.

that identity for myself, no matter how badly I wanted the revenge.

And I wanted the revenge super badly.

It just came down to I just didn't want to pay that high of a price to get it.

And that quick, instantaneous realization was just enough for me to put the gun back down on the passenger seat, pull my leg back inside the car, shut the door, and drive home.

I had come within seconds of almost committing a mass shooting.

That level of impulse control or whatever you want to call it is probably the difference between a lot of people we talk to in our daily lives and a lot of people that are in prison forever.

That's right.

And we now know from the neuroscience of that, and it just tracks addiction in the same way.

With addiction, you know, like I said, if I was to overlay the new neuroscience on top of my actions, I felt humiliated, shamed, wronged, treated unjustly, and victimized for years.

I went after them to finally make myself feel better.

And I would have felt better in that moment.

That would have been.

an intense dopamine rush, but it would only lasted minutes or maybe an hour or something like that, probably not even.

But the last thing that stands between you and carrying out your revenge fantasies, of which I had many at that time, is this prefrontal cortex part of your brain, which is your self-control and executive function circuitry.

And that's there to stop you from doing things against your own self-interest and doing that cost-benefit analysis that I did within a microsecond, it seemed to me at the time.

And fortunately, that was working for me.

But for addicts, drug addicts, alcoholics, gambling addicts, any other behavioral addiction, that part of your brain is often inhibited or hijacked.

It's not there doing its job, which allows you to keep taking the substance despite you knowing that it's ruining your life.

And that's what stood between me and being the convicted version of myself in a prison today.

Afterwards, what were you thinking?

Were you like, oh, gosh, thank God I didn't kill anyone?

Or were you like, I should have at least made them like strip down to their underwear and run down the road and then burned their clothes?

I'm not making a great impression on this episode, but whatever.

My audience knows me.

It just seems like there's a happy medium where you get to make them look like complete clowns, but you also don't go to prison.

And I kind of would have been like in my car driving home.

Shit, I should have thought of that.

I wish I'd have done something a little less than the full max, but something also fun.

I wasn't thinking that so much.

I was thinking, actually, honestly, I was thinking shame.

And the shame I'm thinking about, and that I felt at that time was the shame of not being

tough enough or cruel enough to go through with it this masculine kind of thing it was like the guys that are on the movies the cool guys the heroes that go and take out the villain that's what they do they take out the villain and i didn't have it in me i chickened out i cowarded out at the last second so i was thinking about shame for a little while that I didn't have what it took to go and administer this final act of revenge against these guys or final act of justice in the form of revenge.

That went away, but that was part of my debriefing over probably weeks was this idea.

And in some cultures and in some communities and neighborhoods, whether it's in the United States or elsewhere, that is a real taught shame.

You're supposed to, if somebody comes at you like this and does something like what they did to me, you're supposed to go and you're supposed to dish it and maybe dish it times 10, right?

or 100.

revenge feels amazing right up until the part where you torch your life this next sponsor same dopamine hit fewer restraining orders we'll be right back

this episode is sponsored in part by mint mobile if you're overpaying for wireless it's time to say yes to saying no mint mobile's whole thing is no no contracts no overages no hidden fees no bs and that's why i would yes to switching Premium wireless for 15 bucks a month?

Yeah, I'll take that deal.

Big carriers charge hundreds.

Switching to Mint can cut that down to 15 bucks a month.

That's it.

Mint Mobile's got the same fast 5G network, unlimited talk and text, high-speed data, the works.

The service quality is just as strong without the sticker shock at the end of the month.

You don't have to buy a new phone or change your number to switch to Mint Mobile, so it's zero hassle.

So if you're still paying those crazy wireless bills, do yourself a favor, ditch your old carrier and check out Mint Mobile.

Ready to say yes to saying no?

Make the switch at mintmobile.com slash JHS.

That's mintmobile.com slash JHS.

Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 per month.

Limited time new customer offer for first three months only.

Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan.

Taxes and fees extra.

See Mint Mobile for details.

This episode is also sponsored by Function.

Earlier this year, Jen and I flew all the way to Taiwan and got full body health exams and a complete blood panel because we can't easily request this from our doctors for whatever reason.

And being in our 40s now has us thinking a lot more about staying ahead of issues.

And there's nothing more important to invest in than your health.

When I found out about Function Health, I was like, yeah, no need to fly out to Taiwan anymore.

That's nice because function health is the only health platform that gives you access to over 100 biomarkers, hormones, toxins, markers of heart health, inflammation, stress, you name it.

They even offer MRI and CT scans if you want to go deeper.

And everything is tracked over time so you can see where you stand and how things change as you age.

When Jen and I did this, we found vitamin deficiencies and even some heavy metal buildup, mercury, from what we were eating.

That was a real wake-up call to make some changes.

And with function, we now test annually so we have a benchmark and can see real progress.

Learn more and join using our link.

Function is a near 360 view to see what's happening in your body.

And our first thousand listeners get a $100 credit toward their membership.

Visit functionhealth.com slash Jordan or use gift code Jordan100 at signup to own your health.

If you're wondering how I manage to book all these great authors, scientists, thinkers, creators every single week, it's because of my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself for free over at sixminutenetworking.com.

It'll help you in your career, your personal relationships.

It's great if you're retired.

It's great if you're new to the job market.

It's great at any stage of life.

And it takes about six minutes a day.

It's not cheesy.

It's not awkward, very down-to-earth, very practical, few minutes a day.

And many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course.

So come join us.

You'll be in smart company where you belong.

You can find the course, again, all free, no shenanigans whatsoever, I promise you, at sixminutenetworking.com.

Now, back to Dr.

James Kimmel.

I used to work in Detroit and I worked with this security team team and everybody was from like downtown Detroit.

I remember in many ways it operated like a gang.

I remember one guy, he got threatened by some dudes.

They were like, we're going to kill you.

And I was, I just was like, whatever.

I hear that every day at work.

He lost his mind.

And I remember he had to be brought back to the office and debriefed.

So I was like, explain to me why he's taking this so hard.

Who cares?

Losers threaten his life.

We hear this all the time.

Why care?

And he goes, where he comes from, if you get threatened like that and you back down or you don't react your whole family's in danger you look bad the girl you're involved with is gonna think you're soft your mother's gonna be ashamed of you your kids are gonna be in danger at school where i come from if somebody threatens you and you go whatever i don't care nobody looks down on you for that in fact they're like oh thank god my son's not dumb enough to get into a fight over something like that right but it's the complete opposite where this guy was from and so it we had to calm this whole situation down and de-escalate it and even then i was like i don't want to work next to that guy for the the next couple of weeks because if those guys show up, he's just going to shoot him.

Like he's just going to pull his gun out and shoot him in the back of the head.

He feels that he needs to do that.

And I don't want to be around for that.

And I don't want to see that.

And I don't want to be next to him when he does that.

Or I don't want to be shot with him because those guys decide to do it first.

I don't want any part of this.

So my boss reassigned him actually to work alone in a place that was further away.

from downtown.

He ended up working at a yacht club, which is kind of hilarious.

But as you can imagine, a yacht club, there's nothing that goes on there that's similar to what goes on in these downtown venues where gangs frequent.

So he had to be removed from the cultural context of the entire situation.

Yeah, and they may have saved his life and saved the lives of other people in the process.

And that's where it is in cities where there's a lot of retaliatory gang violence, which, if there is gang violence, it's almost always retaliatory.

The idea that's just evil people or animal people, it's completely false.

And the neuroscience really reveals this now.

This is about revenge seeking, and then it's about one of the ways that society is invented for discharging this emotion, this intense desire for revenge, is when you have police forces and justice systems that are available that will respond and will intervene.

But if in your community you feel more often victimized by the police than you do supported by them, for instance, and therefore in your area, you're more likely needing to resort to street justice to manage these desires.

And to be part of the gang, you've got to prove who you are and what your identity is.

You can end up with a lot of people committing a lot of violence and runaway revenge cycles like this.

And some of my research is now being used in those types of communities to stop and control those revenge desires before they get a hold of you and end up leading you to killing other people.

You mentioned that revenge has addiction properties.

Can you speak to that a little bit?

Because I think that a lot of people are going, oh, he's being metaphorical here.

He's using that as an analogy, but you're not actually doing that, right?

This is a no, no, no.

We have now neuroscience over the last 20 years that shows that revenge is very much an addictive type of behavior.

So let me explain how that works.

What it looks like, if you put somebody in a brain scanner and you give them a grievance, a reason to feel that they've been victimized, treated unjustly or unfairly, and then an opportunity to retaliate against the person who did this to them.

And usually this is set up, or at least in the original studies, as economic types of games, but now it's been done with games where there's been mild but significant amounts of physical pain involved as well.

And it shows the same thing.

So the first thing that happens inside your brain when you feel a sense of injustice, humiliation, shame, betrayal, that's a real pain and it registers inside your brain in an area called the anterior insula, which is the brain's pain network.

So you get physical pain from those types of psychological harms.

And your brain doesn't like pain and it wants that to stop and restore itself back into balance from this pain-heavy balance.

It seeks pleasure.

And through evolution, we've derive enormous pleasure from inflicting pain upon the people who wrong us.

Turns out it gets carried out inside the brain in the addiction circuitry.

That's the nucleus dorsal stratum.

Those are the pleasure, craving, and habit formation areas of the brain that are activated for drug and alcohol addiction.

So it's the same neurocircuitry.

And then as I mentioned earlier as well, this part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex that is there to stop you from doing things that lead to negative consequences, if that's inhibited or hijacked.

And it could be, for instance, in those communities that I'm talking about where you're taught in your own family, retaliate, don't ever back down, retaliate.

And your community is doing the same thing.

So it's not there and functional for you.

Then you may go out on a revenge-seeking binge that leaves your brain, the fantasy behind, and becomes a real life revenge attack.

And that's what we see in violence all over the place, including like intimate partner violence, kids on playgrounds.

Bullies themselves always think of themselves as victims before they become bullies.

The number one way to become a bully is victimize a kid.

Kind of the way that happened for me.

I was victimized enough times that I started to want to become a bully.

Eventually became a lawyer to gratify this craving for revenge.

It's funny because I was going to mention you became a lawyer, which is essentially a professional revenge getter, depending on which area of practice you're in.

Yeah.

So you're licensed to venge at that point.

And that is interesting.

Was that conscious?

Were you thinking, I'm going to be a lawyer so I can sue people and that'll feel good?

Or was it just like you're an overachiever, so you went to law school?

Not immediately.

So I wanted to be a farmer, actually, when I moved out to that farm.

My career goal was to become a farmer.

And at that night, when that all blew up that way, I knew that was the end of my farm career.

And I'd have to become a student and do something.

Because up to that point, I was a horrific student up until like 10th grade.

So I started looking around for career options.

And at some point, I went, hmm, lawyer, that looks pretty interesting.

Yeah.

You were out of ideas.

You became an attorney.

I was backed into a corner and I was either drug dealer or a lawyer.

So I picked lawyer.

Yeah, yeah.

Kind of like that.

Illegal revenge seeker or wow, these guys get paid as litigators enormous amounts of money to get revenge on behalf of our clients or society if we're a prosecutor.

And those ideas kind of everything merged.

It's also fit my skill set.

I was a more verbal, wasn't a STEM kid by any means, but I could write.

I could.

argue a little bit and I thought maybe this is my destiny and I went for it.

And for a while, it seemed like the perfect match for me.

But the more I was able to gratify this desire to seek revenge on behalf of my clients, it became about me and it infected my day-to-day life.

I was a professional revenge seeker at work and then I was doing that at home too with my wife and kids.

When I finally wanted to separate myself from this because I thought it was becoming dangerous and toxic to me, I wasn't able to get away from it.

It was kind of like all these addiction tropes I knew about from drug and alcohol addiction, but it was being visited on my life in the form of revenge seeking.

So how does the addiction take a toll on you over time?

How does it show up and what does it do to you psychologically?

Yeah, first of all, it messes up just about every relationship you have because nobody wants to spend time with a revenge seeker.

If every encounter is met with some form of retaliatory punishment because you pissed me off, what you just said just now is upsetting me.

It's illogical.

It's incorrect.

It's in any way offensive, disrespectful, or insulting.

And you're giving these retaliatory responses back.

Your relationships grow thin pretty fast.

So that's one thing that it does that's highly toxic.

Another thing that I think it does is it becomes a preoccupation where you're always thinking about that, always plotting and scheming.

over the last wrong.

And revenge, it's important to think about revenge within the arrow of time.

Revenge is always looking backwards in time.

You're always seeking to punish someone for something that happened in the past.

It's not a present or future thing.

And so you're always living in the past and obsessing over and ruminating over what happened to you at some point in time in the past.

And this is what fuels your revenge desires.

And if you can't stop that type of rumination, then you're always dealing with these present revenge desires that are interfering with your present life and your future and your ability to achieve the goals that you want to achieve in your life and to create and maintain the relationships that you would rather have.

We also know from studies that revenge seeking, when you do it, actually makes you, despite the quick dopamine hit, after that fades away, it makes you feel worse, but want more.

You feel more anger, you feel more anxiety, you feel more depressed, and you feel fearful because you know, of course, that your act of vengeance upon person A is going to become person A's experience in their mind of victimization and they're going to want to come back at you.

So you know that you're essentially putting yourself in harm's way and continuing conflict cycling in which you're always trapped inside of this conflict and can't get out because you and the other person are committed to trying to hurt each other for what they've just done, as opposed to actually just leaving that in the past where it belongs and moving forward.

And I want to make one point really clear about that arrow of time.

Revenge seeking is not about self-defense.

So for self-defense, that's defending yourself because of a present or imminent near-term future threat to your physical safety or the safety of someone else.

Forgiving a wrong is never giving up self-defense.

It doesn't have to do that.

And it shouldn't.

Self-defense actually activates a different part of your brain, the amygdala, which is not part of the reward and revenge circuitry that I've just been talking about.

Self-defense protects you for the present and the future.

Revenge seeking just lashes you and chains you to the past.

I see.

You say something poetic in the book, which is a hammer can't drive a nail without feeling the impact of each blow.

And I like that because...

I don't remember specific acts of revenge that I've ever had.

I'm not really a vengeful person, not a real one.

And I think of things I've done to people out of anger.

And it's like, it never feels good, right?

You have to rationalize it later.

They did this to me.

And it's, yeah, but so now you're both assholes.

Like, really?

Is that what you wanted?

Or you're both jerks.

I have little kids and my son is six.

So he has trouble with impulse control, I guess you could call it.

And so he'll get really angry with somebody.

This is a few years ago.

He'll get angry with somebody.

He'll just bite them on the shoulder.

And it's like, I know what you wanted to do.

You wanted them to go away and they were annoying.

And I saw that kid and he is annoying.

But like now he's not even the bad guy.

You're the bad guy because you bit him on the shoulder.

You didn't want to play with him.

And I know in his head, he's, I'm like, why did you do that?

And he's like, well, he was annoying me.

But I can also tell he feels ashamed at the same time because he knows he shouldn't have done that.

He's not just upset that he's in trouble.

He knows he shouldn't have done that.

So it chips away at the identity of the person you think you are.

Because unless you totally, fully accept that you're this vengeful, petty person, it's hard to maintain the concept like, I'm this upstanding, nice, honest, good person.

And then you're like, and also I'm poking nails in my ex-girlfriend's tires.

How does that jibe with me being a good, upstanding, honest person again?

I have to compartmentalize it in a way that's uncomfortable and disingenuous, right?

So it doesn't really work.

You can't really have both, especially if this is a habit that you engage in every few days, every week, every month, whatever it is.

Studies show that revenge-seeking behaviors and thinking occurs as early as the toddler years.

So absolutely consistent with what you just described about your son.

And I would say that your son biting this other kid for being annoying, that's a perfect example of revenge seeking, right?

It's look, this kid is causing me pain.

I'm self-medicating right now.

I'm going to cause him pain back.

That's what addiction is always about.

It's this idea of self-medication, making ourselves feel better.

And we do a really bad job.

I have two kids as well.

We do a bad job as parents.

And we haven't had the tools really until very recently with this neuroscience to understand that your own victimization is going to spin off these revenge desires.

And there are really great ways to manage those.

And there are not great ways to manage them.

And we just kind of let kids figure it out for themselves and follow their own instincts.

Instincts lead to things like biting.

or potentially worse and becoming a bully, but we can teach them other things.

So there are some really good solutions that flow from this.

And one is by seeing victimization and revenge desires and violence itself as part of an addictive process.

And that opens up the entire addiction toolkit to us to be able to help ourselves manage those cravings before it's too late.

And we should be starting to teach that in those toddler years and going forward, actually.

Yeah, it's smart.

And his school does a great job of managing all this stuff.

Thank God.

I guess that's why we pay the big bucks.

But it's also, as a parent, it's also kind of embarrassing because, you know, it reflects on you and you're like, no, I did not teach him to bite other people when we're upset with them.

Although your son is really annoying, you should know that.

And my kid's going to bite him back the next time he sees him.

You get this cycle going, right?

No, that's right.

It's like a running joke now.

He'll invite that kid over because they're, of course, fine now.

And like, no biting.

And that, you know, everyone, including the kids, thankfully, will laugh.

But what I found interesting in your work here is it doesn't matter if the grievance is real or not, touching upon what we said earlier about the victimization stuff on the world stage, it's all in your head.

So it doesn't matter if this person actually did humiliate you in front of everybody else.

Your example in the book is great.

The mass shooters, right?

They write these manifestos, which of course is like eye-rollingly narcissistic.

Who the hell writes a manifesto?

Only a psychopath narcissist who's going on the shooting spree, but it's always they've rejected me.

They don't see how great I am.

They don't understand.

They've embarrassed me for for the last time.

And it's who's they?

No one is thinking about you.

But in their head, this grandiose narcissist is they are all conspiring to diminish my status as an amazing person.

And you see this with there was like an incel kid a while ago, and he had gotten pushed off of a platform at a party, and maybe someone laughed.

And guaranteed nobody ever thought about that kid again, but he replayed this incident in his head along with being rejected by girls for years until he just decided to kill a bunch of people.

And it was really scary because he wrote all of this down, essentially, which is why we can piece it together.

Point being, it can be all in your head, even if you're, I guess we would say, mostly mentally healthy person, these people are not, but you can still nurse a grievance in your head and realize maybe from talking to the other person that they have never thought about that.

On a micro level, almost every argument can be like this, right?

With your spouse, you're like, she always does this and always does that.

And then you talk to them, and they're like, Oh, did I forget to plug in the car?

I'm so sorry.

I got a call.

And you're like, Oh, it wasn't a personal slight because I asked you to do it.

And you were doing this to show you that I'm the boss in the household.

And yada yada.

Like all these constructs, all the scaffolding you put up to make this a bigger deal than it had to be goes away in an instant.

I guess with people who are not emotionally mentally healthy, they nurse this grievance until they explode.

They can't.

You created a nice spectrum there between, let's say, intimate partner disputes that you might have with your husband or your wife or somebody that you love, and you're feeling wronged and you start to want to retaliate, and you get these verbal battles between the two of you, perhaps.

And this is slowly starting to eat apart your relationship.

But what it's all about in those instances is both sides are feeling victimized, either real or imagined, and feeling insulted, humiliated, betrayed.

And you're now wanting to retaliate again to self-medicate, make yourself feel better.

And that scales up to including even mass shooters.

Even if you were right that mass shooters are typically sociopaths, and the evidence doesn't really support that, that they're all sociopaths.

There's some evidence that some of them are, some percentage, not insignificant, but it's not the majority.

But even the sociopath is going through this same experience of I feel victimized, now I'm retaliating.

So even sociopaths can become revenge addicts.

If we want to really reduce mass shooters and improve our interpersonal relationship at home, it's the same process of seeing what's going on here is we're talking about revenge addiction or at least compulsive revenge seeking that's uncontrolled.

Maybe if it's your inner partner relationship, you're only using verbal battles and maybe little petty things like, you don't like it that I leave the toilet seat up.

So I'm going to leave that up for you tonight because screw you, right?

And you're going to experience that.

And that might be a small act of revenge seeking, a little bit of sabotage on the other person, all the way up through a relationship that's gotten so dysfunctional that you get to a murder-suicide situation in which, you know, this husband who obviously loved this woman and had kids with her and now feels in his mind, he's built up this perception of victimization to such an extent that he wants revenge against all of them in one last.

great final act, kills them all, and then kills himself.

Instead of just this cop-out that we do in society of, oh, another act of senseless violence, oh, an evil person, always somebody that's not me and there's no answer for it.

That's not true anymore.

We now have really solid evidence for what is causing this and we have ways of tackling it that are much more worth thinking about as a public health measure to reduce violence than just throwing up our hands and going, oh, there's a bunch of evil people and then there's a bunch of good people and we're different.

You're not different.

Almost anyone can be provoked to the point of committing an act of violence.

And that should be enough warning for us to go, oh, in just the same way that if I drink alcohol or I take an opioid, I will experience euphoria.

We all have evolved to experience pleasure from opioids and alcohol.

Similarly, we also all experience pleasure from grievance-triggered revenge cravings and getting revenge.

So then the question becomes is how do we control this intense brain biological pleasure?

And we have ways to do that.

It seems like instead of going after the grievance or trying to prevent the grievance, we have to go after the response to the grievance.

Because if everybody can be triggered by this, you can't prevent every grievance.

And also, since the grievance doesn't even have to be real, it just has to be in their head or our head.

You really can't go after the grievance.

You have to go after the response to the grievance, right?

That's one of the primary arguments in the book.

And I think that's well supported.

There are infinite number of grievances in the world because, as you say, we manufacture them and we see them.

There's no great judge for them and they happen all the time.

Some people are grievance collectors where they just experience almost every act that comes at them that isn't a compliment as an insult.

And for those people, they're having trouble managing those grievances.

But what we can do.

We should always try.

Society ought to be always about making things more fair and equitable and just.

However, if we want to really reduce violence, we need to focus on how grievances and real or imagined sense of victimization is converted inside your brain into an act of violence or intentional infliction of pain upon another human being.

And now we understand what that looks like.

Are men's brains and women's brains different or are they kind of equally vengeful?

It seems like right now, without fully exhaustive studies having been undertaken, that the desire for revenge is equal among the sexes.

But one of the things that has been uncovered in studies is that for males, males who are carrying out an act of revenge, their empathy center inside their brain is dulled.

In other words, it's shut down.

We do not empathize with the person that we're punishing or who is being punished if we're witnessing it.

Whereas for females, the empathy center remains active.

Females can empathize with the person being punished.

And that might help explain some of the differences in what we experience, which is men being much more vengeful and carrying it out to a more excessive degree than most women under the same set of circumstances.

Interesting.

You mentioned revenge attacks as almost like a medical emergency, like a heart attack.

What are warning signs?

What should we be watching for before revenge turns violent?

Is there any kind of where there's smoke, there's fire kind of signal we can spot?

There is.

I have a website called called savingkane, C-A-I-N dot org, that people can go to with the warning signs of revenge attack.

And they're also in my book, The Science of Revenge.

But what you're looking for there, and we're starting to get a little bit better at this, but we're still missing too many people.

The first thing to do is start thinking about revenge attack like a heart attack.

It's a medical emergency.

It should be the reason that we call 911.

You experience chest pain radiating down your left arm.

And we've all kind of been taught by the American Heart Association or whatever medical group, call 911, do not try and second guess it, just call.

And similarly, things like somebody who is constantly dwelling on a grievance, doesn't let it go, begins to express revenge fantasies and what they'd like to do to some person or group of people.

Often it's a group.

They have grievances against an entire group.

And when they're not letting go and they continue to express it, or as you had the example of the guy at work, there's a lot of workplace revenge-seeking violence that can occur.

Mass shootings occur in schools, workplaces, shopping centers, churches, all over the place.

Among the many common things, there seems to be a pattern that led up to it of the person being unable to let go of grievances, voicing their fantasies of what they'd like to do.

and then moving towards the acquisition or availability of weapons and identifying a target, a time, place, and location.

Those types of things, if that's starting to happen or it's being expressed, then somebody ought to be calling 911 immediately to have that person looked at.

Unfortunately, I'm going to say that's what we can do in the public side.

On the professional side, there hasn't yet been a movement in the mental health profession to go, oh, we need to evaluate how is this person processing their grievances and revenge desires.

Mental health professionals will argue after every mass shooting, and people go, This must be a mental illness problem.

Why are you doing nothing about it?

And they'll go, We're doing nothing about it because it's not a mental illness.

There is no mental illness for violence.

And that's true.

And it's also true to say people who have serious mental illnesses like schizophrenia or borderline personality disorders and things like that are not more violent or statistically significantly more violent than anybody else.

And that's also true.

But what they're leaving behind is this idea, which is a mental illness, of revenge use disorder or revenge addiction, which we can treat and evaluate just like we do drug and alcohol addictions and begin to help first evaluate is somebody having a moderate, low, or very severe addiction, and then providing them with services to help them begin to process and control their revenge desires.

Because they're just mental desires.

They're thought formations inside of your head.

We're all the masters of our own brains.

Sometimes we need a little help to get our brains under control and we can do that.

So I would call 911 and treat anything like that as a revenge emergency.

Huh.

Revenge attack.

Revenge feels good.

This sponsor feels even better and it doesn't end in handcuffs.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Haya Health.

It's always bugged me that most kids' vitamins are basically candy in disguise.

That's why we switched to Haya, a pediatrician-approved chewable vitamin with zero sugar, zero gummy junk.

Even my picky eaters actually look forward to taking them.

Your first order comes with this really nice reusable glass bottle that kids can decorate with stickers.

Our kids had a blast personalizing theirs, and now they actually remind me when it's vitamin time.

Each month after that, you just get eco-friendly refills that go right into the same bottle.

And these aren't just glorified gummies.

They're loaded with the good stuff, a blend of organic fruits and veggies, plus 15 essential vitamins and minerals like vitamin D, B12, C, zinc, folate, basically everything kids need to fill the gaps in their diet, which is huge since Juni lives on buttered macaroni and chicken nuggets.

Haya is non-GMO, vegan, dairy-free, nut-free, free of everything you don't want, basically, and packed with everything you do.

If you're a parent, Haya is one of those small changes that can make a big difference.

We've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best-selling children's vitamin.

Receive 50% off your first order.

To claim this deal, you must go to hayahealth.com/slash Jordan.

This deal is not available on the regular website.

Go to H-I-Y-A-H-E-A-L-T-H.com/slash Jordan and get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults.

This episode is also sponsored by ButcherBox.

Jen and I are pretty big on protein.

We like to get it from real food, not just powders all the time.

That's why we use ButcherBox.

They deliver clean, high-quality protein straight to your door.

ButcherBox has over 100 premium options, 100% grass-fed beef, free-range organic chicken, crate-free pork, wild-caught seafood.

Everything meets the same high standards, whether it's filet mignon or yes, chicken nuggets.

And when my kids ask for nuggets for the 10th night in a row, at least I know I'm saying yes to something that I feel good about.

We customized our box with salmon, chicken thighs for soups, ground bison that Jen makes into a killer recipe, and babyback ribs that she'll just throw in the smoker.

ButcherBox has been doing this for nearly a decade, and all their meat and seafood is antibiotic-free, hormone-free, independently verified.

They're also a certified B Corp, which means they hold themselves to high standards, not just in how the animals are raised, but how they also support the workers and reduce environmental impact.

Every box ships free and you get access to members-only perks and exclusive deals.

We're big fans and highly recommend it.

As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free protein in Everybox for a year.

Plus, $20 off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com slash Jordan to get this limited time offer and free shipping always.

That's butcherbox.com slash Jordan.

And don't forget to use our link so they know we sent you.

This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb.

We just booked our very first cruise with the kids and we could not be more excited.

Seriously, can spring break get here any faster?

The kids are already bouncing off the walls.

And honestly, I will too once I see those water slides and all the onboard activities.

It's basically a floating adventure playground.

And it feels like the perfect mix of relaxation for us and exploration for them.

But here's the thing.

While we're out at sea, our home back on land, just sitting empty.

And that's what it hit me.

Why let it sit unused when I could actually have it work for us by hosting it on Airbnb?

With their co-host network, you can even hire a local pro to help take care of everything from guest messages to check-ins.

So you're not trying to juggle it all from the middle of the ocean.

And here's the best part.

We get to enjoy the cruise, create these family memories, and know that our place was earning a little extra while we were away.

So if you've got a spot that just sits empty while you're away, why not let it work for you?

Find a co-host at airbnb.com slash host.

If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who make this show possible.

All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find a code, something's not working for you, definitely just email us, hit us up, jordan at jordanharbinger.com.

I am more than happy to surface codes for you.

It is that important that you support those who support the show.

Now for the rest of my conversation with James Kimmel.

You mentioned in the book one indicator of revenge addiction is when somebody gets rejected, say, romantically, and then threatens suicide.

And this one really hit because I've seen this come into our Feedback Friday.

It's a segment we do where we give advice.

I've seen that come in the inbox where someone's like, I really want to break up with my boyfriend, but every time I try to do it, he's like, oh, I'm so down now.

I'm going to end it.

And I'm like, oh, this is so manipulative.

If somebody breaks up with somebody and they hear a suicide threat, is it just them tripping?

Is it just manipulation?

What do they do?

I feel like this is way too common.

People pull this card a lot.

They do.

And there's no one answer fits all thing that I could provide.

And I am not, to be clear, I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist that could diagnose or treat that.

What you can do, do, though, is begin to gauge and ask, are you serious about that?

Do you have a plan?

When, you know, when, time, date, location.

And if the person's able to say, yes, I do, then you might be saving their life by calling them.

You might even be saving your own because once in a while, that will also manifest as a murder-suicide, as we know all too well.

Romantic relationships that break down into murder-suicides are just way too common.

So you ought to take it seriously.

But you're right, Jordan, that a lot of times those are empty threats made to make someone else feel guilty because the person is in agony and they're just like, I would rather die than go through this.

And that's not an uncommon feeling.

But if it has more substance to it with planning, then I think that you ought to call or try and get that person to call.

I found it interesting that there are studies with mice choosing revenge over food.

Can you speak to that a little?

Because if other mammals are doing this instead of eating, it's like, I can relate.

Pretty shocking study.

So it turns out that the mouse brain has the same addiction circuitry that the human brain has.

So they have a nucleus accumbens.

They have a way of perceiving pain.

And so there have been some mouse studies that have been conducted in which are trained and enculturated to, for example, let a neighboring mouse into their cage.

And if that mouse stumbles into the cage, they'll attack that mouse and punish it.

And then they'll give the mouse the option of eating its favorite food or attacking the intruding mouse.

And the mouse will attack the intruding mouse rather than eat the food.

And then having been trained up to this point, then they'll try it again.

But this time they'll go, okay, mouse can eat its favorite food, attack the intruding mouse.

But if it starts to attack the intruding mouse, it has to go over this electric grid that will essentially electrocute its feet, which researchers have analogized to being hit by a cannonball in the gut.

And mice, even at that level, would rather go across that electrical grid to punish that invading mouse than not do that, which really shows an addictive type of response at the rodent level.

Now, one thing we can't know for sure is that the intruding mouse is viewed by the home mouse as committing a quote-unquote grievance.

We can't talk to mice and find out what their true motivations are.

But I think that there's a strong argument that is what's occurring, that an intruding mouse is seen as committing a grievance, and the home mouse is now punishing it.

But I want to be clear, an intrusion is also a real-time act of threat, self-defense type threat.

And so it is also possible that mouse is just reacting on instinct.

But what is weird is that, and I think it's more in favor of this being retaliatory, is that we don't contrive for ourselves to be hurt or killed.

And we don't put ourselves in harm's way, but we do put ourselves in a position to retaliate when we can for a past wrong.

So this is a subtlety, but it's kind of interesting.

But it is interesting.

I think some people are going, is this really an addiction?

Come on, we evolved this response.

How can that be an addiction?

If it's a natural response, if it's something we had when we were in tribes, this isn't some sort of addiction.

This is an evolved response that's totally natural.

Maybe it doesn't serve us, but it's not really an addiction like smoking.

Yeah, there's a good answer for that, actually.

We've also evolved so that almost 100% of humans, as I said earlier, experience euphoria from opioids and alcohol or the pleasure of tobacco.

We've evolved to all like those addictive substances.

That's about 100% of people.

But of the people who try drugs, alcohol, tobacco, only about 20% become addicted to those.

And that 20%

roughly equals the number of people who in studies will say that they actually carry out revenge acts when they experience a grievance versus about 80% who go, I think about revenge.

I think it would be pleasurable, but I don't do it.

We can evolve to all like a certain thing, and we can also accept the truth that only about 20% of us actually could become addicted to it.

So there's a good reason to believe that this is very much an addictive process.

Are people who have one addiction more likely to be addicted to something else?

Is a revenge addict more likely to get addicted to gambling too or drugs?

Or is a smoker more likely to also be a revenge addict?

Do we have any data on that?

There are some theories about that and some studies that point in that direction.

I don't think that it's been conclusively demonstrated.

But one thing that I think is pretty close to conclusive is that, as I said before, in addiction, you not only need to want the substance or want the revenge, but you need a prefrontal cortex that's been inhibited or hijacked in such a way that it won't stop you from going and getting it, even though it's ruining your life or ruining other people's lives.

And so it seems as though, at least at that level, people who have prefrontal cortex inhibitions in general are going to be more likely to move toward an addictive state, no matter what the substance or behavior is that we're talking about, because they don't have the same, I call it in the book, they don't have the same stop circuitry, the circuitry that's there to stop you from doing things versus the addictive go circuitry.

This is a quote-unquote addictive personality.

Yeah, that would be a term I probably wouldn't use, or I don't know if any mental health professionals would use that, but it's an addictive potential trait in this sense.

There are people who have genetic markers that show that their prefrontal cortex is inhibited.

And those people tend to move towards addiction more quickly than people who do not have that genetic disposition.

How did revenge function as a benefit to humanity in the early days?

Basically, why didn't this get bred out of the population?

People used to ask me a lot about psychopaths, and I've done plenty of shows on psychopaths.

They play a useful role in society today, so we'll have them forever, right?

You might think, oh, psychopathic killer, but also that brain surgeon, also possibly a psychopath.

I definitely went to school with somebody who went to med school to be a brain surgeon.

I have no doubt she was a psychopath.

She was just on another level.

I think a lot of high-powered CEOs are psychopaths.

You just see that a lot.

I know a lot of entrepreneurs where I'm like, yeah, I'm like arm's length friends with this guy because I think he's a psychopath, but man, is he successful because he just is one-track mind, doesn't care about anything else.

But what about revenge addicts?

Is that not maladaptive?

No, it was adaptive back in the day, and it could still be adaptive today.

And here's why.

The leading theory is that as humans were coming out of their individual caves and deciding to live in groups and societies, for a society to succeed, it's got to have a way to essentially compel all of the people in the society to agree upon and follow and obey.

a similar set of social norms, right?

The norms of that society.

The other thing it needs to do to survive in community is be able to stop and deter people from doing things like stealing your mate or stealing the food you need for the winter, because otherwise you won't be able to procreate or survive.

So it's thought that revenge seeking was an adaptive strategy back then.

But fast forward now to 2025.

And the thing to know about now is that a lot of these grievances that we've been discussing are wounds not to your bodily ability to survive or procreate.

They are wounds to your ego, which is just itself a mental structure.

And so, having revenge seeking to punish people for wounds to your ego, which is, as you really rightly explained, I think a lot of the mass shooters, a lot of intimate partner violence bullying, social media platforms where there's just endless wounds to ego and retaliatory tweets and responses back.

All of these things become maladaptive or at risk of maladaptive if they push forward to acts of violence or other intentionally inflicted human suffering that is going to harm you or someone else.

It's going to have negative consequences.

And many of them do.

Most revenge seeking does.

Violence itself is maladaptive.

So any act of violence is not a survival thing.

You could say, what if it's in self-defense?

The self-defense act is a survival move.

And so that would be okay.

But that's usually because there was a violent act coming at you and you only had the choice of fight, freeze, or flee.

So other than that one exception, all other violent acts are maladaptive.

Man, okay.

So that's interesting.

That's an interesting take.

If revenge is biologically wired, then it seems like that means cycles of violence are inevitable.

Unless societies can rewire themselves away from revenge, which like, how do we do that?

Think about it in terms of the other addictions again.

So, we also evolved to experience euphoria from opioids and alcohol, right?

I mean, 100% of us get that, right?

If you pointed to a society and said, look, there's no other addictions.

We just have to get rid of this violence thing.

Then I would be like, okay, hopeful, optimistic.

But it's like, you're telling me, hey, in a society that is riddled with gambling, porn, fentanyl, and smoking, oh yeah, also this revenge thing has got to go.

It's like, man, take a number.

It is take a number.

But what's positive about it is that they all can be solved in the same kind of way.

And there are wins and successes at helping people get off of all of those forms of addiction.

And this is the best part of the whole thing.

The neuroscience also shows that for revenge specifically, we are hardwired just as much as we are to seek revenge as to forgive.

And this idea of forgiveness, which is a more unique take on what forgiveness looks like inside the brain and what it really means, it's not merely only or even even at all necessarily a spiritual experience.

It is a process inside your brain that shuts down pain instead of just covering it up with dopamine hits, that shuts down the craving circuitry of revenge seeking and that activates your prefrontal cortex decision making.

So we really have now neuroscience evidence that kind of proves out some of the forgiveness teachings of people like Jesus and the Buddha.

It's phenomenal, and it works specifically for revenge seeking.

And we can teach it, we can coach it, and we can use it.

We just need to start doing that from youth up and get rid of this idea that forgiveness is softness or a weakness.

It is not.

It is the ultimate way.

It's like a wonder drug superpower that anyone can use when they've been victimized in order to heal from the wrongs of the past.

It's very impressive.

And you see a lot of revenge and forgiveness, I suppose.

It's like Old Testament revenge, New Testament, maybe a little bit of forgiveness sprinkled in there.

Kind of like, oh, we saw the way that went.

You know, friggin' Cain and Abel, right?

It's like the original revenge story.

And then it's not gone anywhere.

I mean, I've seen the Lion King.

They threw a scar off into the fire or whatever.

That's the plot of every movie.

We actually have a series, an incredibly popular one, called The Avengers.

Well, come on, man.

Hollywood is feeding this.

Is this dangerous?

Is there a danger of feeding the society's appetite for revenge through entertainment?

Or is it like, are we venting in a healthy way?

Or are we reinforcing addictive loops?

What do you think?

I think for 20% of the people it's reinforcing addictive move and for 80

it's not as dangerous but we don't distinguish between the two and there's no way to distinguish in there what we should know that when we pay a ticket to see one of those movies we're buying the drug what we want is first as it is in the beginning of all of these revenge plot movies there's an experience of serious victimization to the protagonist to the hero in the movie and we as human beings we all have these empathy centers.

We can instantly feel the protagonist's pain.

And once we've experienced that, we start craving revenge just as much as the protagonist does.

And then we expect over the course of the movie for there to be small moves that are going to bring us to the point where we're finally going to get revenge against the villain.

And that payoff is what we want.

That's why we're there.

And that's what keeps our butts in the seats until the very end.

And then we get this high.

It's euphoric.

We're cheering in our seats.

And then we walk out of the audience and go, wow, where do I get that high again?

And we're definitely addicted to it.

And there's no surprise that revenge plots and superhero movies are among the biggest grossing forms of entertainment that there are.

And there's no surprise that social networking is the same way.

It's the ridiculous multi-billion dollar industry that allows us to feel other people's grievances, express our own, and then give us instant gratification by firing retaliatory messaging back to other people that we think have wronged us.

And we can do it at group and population level.

It's the same type of addictive process.

And we don't even begin to teach our kids how to manage these emotions that they're having and these powerful cravings and desires.

I know in the book, you actually go as far as to say America has become maybe a revenge-addicted nation.

In brief, what evidence do you see of that in our legal system, politics, culture?

We discuss films.

In our legal system, not to get too in the weeds as two nerdy lawyers here, but we are a punitive justice system.

You look at Norway, where they're like, let's put these people on an island where they live humanely and learn how to become auto mechanics.

And then you look at our prison system, and it's, we're going to throw you in a dark hole with crappy food and a bunch of crazy people, and you have to join a gang to survive.

And when you get out, don't blow your other chance to be a functional human being.

We're not going to teach you how to do that or anything.

It's all you, but we'll see you back here in two years.

That's our system, in my opinion.

It is, and there's lots of evidence for it.

It's somewhat cyclical.

In other words, it gets worse and then it gets better.

And America is more, as many, probably all nations and all groups of people are more and less vengeful at different points in our individual and in our corporate lives.

Right now, we've got, you know, a revenge-seeking administration that...

represents a group of people and a group of individuals who believe they've been seriously victimized over the last maybe 20, 30 years and have been ignored and now put upon and the victims of other people's revenge seeking and now they want revenge in return.

And it's important to think about revenge is not in that sense.

It's not a political problem.

It's not whether you're liberal or a conservative.

It's a human problem.

We all experience it.

Liberals are both feeling victimized and perpetrating acts of revenge just as much as conservatives.

What the X factor is, I think, is the social networking platforms that we as a nation were not ready for, not at all prepared for, that enable big groups of people to share and experience the same one or similar grievances at light speed and give them opportunities to retaliate and gratify their revenge cravings and move those for a certain percentage.

move these revenge desires out of the ether and into the real world by planning, using the same platforms to plan real-world revenge acts and we can think of the insurrection at the capitol as one where that very much happened there was the grievance spreading about the stop the steal on the social media platforms and then there were desires to retaliate but a certain group of people got together using the same platforms to gather at the capitol So we have that happening right now in a very intense way while we have all of the media keeping up on this and going, this is how to make money.

The way to make money in media is to provide people with grievances and opportunities to seek revenge.

And they're doing that, whether it's a news show or a quote-unquote news show or talk shows, it is everywhere.

So, to me, the antidote to that is to begin to think about if we wanted to make America great again, we need to make it forgiving again.

It's Mafa is my message.

Make America forgiving again.

And we were.

We have been.

America has been an amazing forgiving nation.

Japan and Germany are like two extreme examples.

But since the Civil War, which finally ended through forgiveness after the military hostilities, it took northerners and southerners to agree on not seeking revenge against each other anymore and forgiving each other for the wrongs of the past, that we knit the country back together again.

Then the civil rights era, more grievance, more revenge seeking, and we got over it.

So I'm hopeful this will pass like all of the others, but it takes a commitment to thinking about forgiveness, not as only some pious way of getting into heaven.

It might for you and that's okay.

It's more about at the neurological level, we can show that it shuts down the pain of the past.

You can actually heal yourself from the wrongs of the past, even just imagining how it would feel.

to forgive a grievance that's plaguing you like right now, this instant, you could close your eyes and go, how would I feel if I decided to forgive person X for what they've done?

And most people actually go, oh, I would feel like this burden just lifted from my shoulders.

I feel this moment of peace and joy.

It's astonishing.

And we now can see neurobiologically how and why that occurs.

But how do we make our desire for forgiveness stronger than our desire for revenge?

Or is that not really the goal?

I think that it is always stronger in this sense, Jordan.

In both revenge seeking and forgiveness, we want the pain of the past, the remembered pains of our lives, to stop.

We want that pain to end.

There are two strategies you can choose.

One is revenge seeking, which will give you a dopamine hit to cover up that pain for a short period of time, but then it roars back.

Or you can choose to experience forgiveness, which doesn't cover up the pain.

It actually stops the pain dead in its tracks.

And you can use it as many times as you want with no negative consequences.

It really is a super drug that works wonders.

You don't need a doctor.

You don't need to go to a pharmacy.

You can give this to yourself as many times as the pain returns until it's finally silenced.

And forgiveness will silence the pain.

What do you think of the ability of maybe psychedelics or GLP-1 drugs?

Because they say that also might stem addictions, GLP-1 stuff.

And psychedelics, there's a little bit of new recent research that shows that can rewire our brain, a little revenge detox, maybe.

What do you think of the potential for those kinds of drugs or interventions?

It looks very strong.

Now, it's not been studied, so I can't point to any study where researchers have given someone a reason for aggrievance, desire to retaliate, and then administered a GLP-1 or psychedelics to see the effect.

But I believe when they do that, we're going to see real benefits.

because it does seem to work on the same pleasure and craving circuitry of addiction that's consistent no matter what the substance or the behavior is.

So there's every reason to believe that it would help.

I know in the book, you've got a very detailed system of practical ways to put people on trial, essentially, in your head.

I don't really want to go through all of that here on the show because it's quite in the weeds.

But if people are like, wait, but you didn't tell us how to forgive people or how to get over this, the book has a very detailed way of, you call it the non-justice system.

And I think that is probably very useful for people who are harboring a grudge or maybe are revenge addicts.

I'm sure there's people in the audience right now who are like, oh, this is me.

And I think it's good to know that you don't have to be Jesus or Gandhi in order to forgive people for serious offenses.

That's right.

It's a lot easier than that.

And what I've created, you know, we're both lawyers.

You probably would appreciate.

the method here.

It's just based on a trial, but it's a role play trial in which you get to put on trial anyone who's ever wronged or hurt you in your life.

But during this role play trial, you play all of the roles.

You're the victim, then you're the defendant testifying, then you're the judge and jury deciding innocence and handing down a punishment, then you're the warden administering the punishment.

And finally, in the last step, you're the judge of your own life deciding whether and how to set yourself free from the wrongs of the past.

And we've studied this at Yale, and it's been shown to really reduce revenge desires rapidly and to increase benevolence toward the person who wronged you.

And the reason it seems to work and the reason that people for thousands of years have been wanting trials and what a lot of us want but never get to have is a trial.

It's very costly and limited, the number of people that actually make it into a courtroom.

But what we really want when we've experienced trauma is we want the opportunity to be heard and we want to hold someone to account.

And the non-justice system gives you that opportunity.

You might go, well, it's only in your head, but it's way more than that because the pain itself and your memories of what happened to you are also only in your head.

They're not out here in the real world.

You don't need a stone and mortar and brick and wood courtroom filled with a judge who's not you and lawyers who are not you in order to be heard and in order to hold somebody to account and decide guilt or innocence.

Then when you play the ward in administering the punishment, you're given essentially what is like methadone for a revenge addict there.

You get the experience actually punishing the person who wronged you safely in your memory where it won't hurt you or other people.

And then in the last step, you feel, you know, that you've gone through the trial.

And usually, most people have gone through a trial, and you probably know this as well, Jordan.

There's this initial euphoria if you win, but then there's this big letdown and more pain and going, wow, I thought I would feel so much better for so much longer after all of this work to get here.

It's very disappointing.

But here in the non-justice system, you get the opportunity to ask yourself how you would feel if you decided to forgive instead.

And that's where you get this kind of euphoric release of, wow, I could really walk away from this moment and never think about this again.

I want that.

I want to forgive because it benefits me.

It doesn't benefit the perpetrator who hurt me.

It benefits me as victim.

James Kimmel, thank you very much.

Really insightful.

I never looked at revenge this way.

Didn't even think there was a science to revenge, frankly.

And here we are.

Thank you for the opportunity to be on your show.

Really appreciate it.

Fame looks glamorous until you realize it costs the everyday freedoms that most of us take for granted.

Even as a little kid, watching Saturday Night Live and watching Eddie Murphy and Mike Myers and all these guys sneaking downstairs with my best friend Nick, and we would watch these things and then recite them for hours and reenact them.

I'm so grateful that I had such a specific passion.

I can't totally explain it, but it was something I had and was lucky enough to follow.

I wanted so badly to to be on Saturday Night Live for the Daily Show, and I prepared relentlessly.

It's why I moved to New York.

It's why I started doing stand-up comedy and started doing improv comedy.

It's why I joined the community and I had this goal.

And then I got on the daily show and I had never thought beyond that.

My career wasn't handed to me, but it's just important to look back with gratitude at some of the things that fell into place.

It was the realization that the work never ends.

That was a valuable lesson to learn on one of my first major gigs because, well, the office happened and then the hangover, I still have to hustle.

I got to keep hustling.

Movies are very intoxicating because it's so all-consuming.

It's very easy to detach from a lot of things in your life, whether they're difficult or good.

Also, as an ADHD person, I thrive in hyper-focus.

So when I get into that mindset, it's like I'm in go mode.

And it's thrilling but there's a cost for more with ed helms on the hidden costs of fame and the chaos of his career check out episode 1146 of the jordan harbinger show

we think revenge is about balance but it's really about dopamine and dr kimmel reminds us that payback doesn't settle the score it just rewires it the cure is not vengeance it's awareness compassion maybe even a little humility All things Dr.

James Kimmel will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com.

Advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com/slash deals.

Please consider supporting those who support the show.

Also, our newsletter, We BitWiser, is a lot of fun.

You guys love reading this.

A lot of replies to these.

You can just hit reply and talk right to us.

The idea is to give you something specific and practical that'll have an immediate impact on your decisions, your relationships, your psychology.

It's a two-minute read every Wednesday, just about.

If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out.

It is a great companion to the show.

JordanHarbinger.com/slash news is where you can find it.

Don't forget about six minute networking as well over at sixminutenetworking.com.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

And this show, it's created in association with Podcast One.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tata Sedlauskis, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Remember, we rise by lifting others.

The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting.

The greatest compliment you can give us is really to share the show with those you care about.

If you know somebody who's a revenge addict, maybe needs to let let something go or do a little dopamine detox, definitely share this episode with them.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

And we'll see you next time.

Are you ready to take your small biz to the next level?

At the UPS store, we have the key to unlock a world of possibilities.

We'll sign for your packages and protect them from porch pirates.

We'll send texts straight to your phone so you're in the loop for new deliveries and give your small biz the street credit deserves with a real street address.

So, what are you waiting for?

Most locations are independently owned.

Product services, pricing, and hours of operation may vary.

See Center for Details, the UPS store.

Be unstoppable.

Come into your local store today.