1203: Veganism | Skeptical Sunday

Suffs, the new musical has made Tony award-winning history on Broadway.

We demand to be hurt!

Winner, best score!

We demand to be seen!

Winner, best book!

We demand to be quality!

It's a theatrical masterpiece that's thrilling, inspiring, dazzlingly entertaining, and unquestionably the most emotionally stirring musical this season.

Suffs!

Playing the Orpheum Theater October 22nd through November 9th.

Tickets at BroadwaySF.com

Audubal's romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you.

When it comes to what kind of romance you're into, you don't have to choose just one.

Fancy a dalliance with a duke or maybe a steamy billionaire.

You could find a book boyfriend in the city and another one tearing it up on the hockey field.

And if nothing on this earth satisfies, you can always find love in another realm.

Discover modern rom-coms from authors like Lily Chu and Allie Hazelwood, the latest romanticy series from Sarah J.

Mas and Rebecca Yaros, plus regency favorites like Bridgerton and Outlander.

And of course, all the really steamy stuff.

Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash wondery.

That's audible.com/slash wondery.

Welcome to Skeptical Sunday.

I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

Today I'm here with Skeptical Sunday co-host, writer, and researcher Jessica Wynn.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

And during the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers.

On Sundays, though, is Skeptical Sunday.

A rotating guest co-host and I will break down a topic you may have never thought about and debunk common misconceptions.

Topics such as banned foods, GMOs, toothpaste, crystal healing, diet pills, bottled water, energy drinks.

If you're new to the show or you're looking for a way to tell your friends about it, and of course I always appreciate it when you do that, I suggest our episode starter packs.

These are collections of our favorite episodes on persuasion and negotiation, psychology, disinformation, junk science, crime and cults, and more.

That'll help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show.

Just visit jordanharbinger.com slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.

Today on Skeptical Sunday, we're going beyond the kale.

That's right.

We're discussing all things vegan.

To some, it's salvation.

To others, it's a social cult cult with nutritional gaps.

But there's no, and you'll be able to guess

which one I think it is.

There's no denying it's a popular lifestyle.

So what does it get right?

What does it get wrong?

And why would some people rather punch a vegan than give up cheese?

We'll find out with someone living the life, writer, researcher, decades-long vegan, Jessica Wynne.

Welcome back, Jess.

Hey, Jordan.

I promise no tofu lectures unless provoked.

Unless provoked.

Fair enough.

You know, I just realized there's a fair percentage of my team that's vegan, actually, because there's you, there's Gabe, and there's a couple people I got to check on.

But like two out of six, one third of the team is vegan.

That's like,

what is it about you?

If we had, or maybe there's seven or eight of us now, whatever, I've lost count, but if we had an office, I would be forced to offer vegan options, which is one, just one of many reasons why that's never going to happen.

Look, a tofu lecture sounds like something I'd have to hear in a yurt holding a meditation gong or a sound bowl.

So let's start with your deal.

You're not just plant curious.

You're full vegan.

I am.

And I understand veganism is not for everyone.

I'm not interested in converting people here today, nor do I believe every person is built for a vegan lifestyle.

But I was the little kid, you know, feeding my steak to the dog and only eating the fries from my happy meal.

By the time I graduated high school, I was dishing out lentils with food not bombs like a good little vegan teenage punk rocker.

Food not bomb.

When you were in high school, what were were we bombing?

I mean, I don't even...

Anything in particular or just generally?

Food Not Bombs was, yeah, I guess it was, they only served vegan food and it was just to feed homeless communities in inner cities.

I see.

So we weren't even bombing anything.

You weren't like, stop the war.

You were just like, if you were thinking about bombing something, how about no?

Just here's some Lenten.

It was just a clever name, I guess, but yeah.

Got it.

Okay.

I mean, to be fair, the branding works most of the time for the United States.

Right, I know.

Terrifying.

Yeah, yeah.

All right.

Wow.

So you just never liked meat.

That must have been difficult because growing up, you know, if you don't like mushrooms, your mom's like, fine, I guess I won't make.

But if you're vegan, your mom's like, well, I'm not playing that game.

You're eating this.

I know.

Especially back then.

In the 90s, vegan wasn't cute.

It definitely wasn't convenient.

You had to find a health food store, scoop nutritional yeast from a bin, and learn to cook everything from scratch.

Oh, my God.

I didn't grow up in a supportive household.

My bacon and eggs family thought I joined a cult.

So Thanksgiving in particular was this anxiety producing nightmare that left me hungry, quietly crying over my plate of cranberry sauce.

Yeah, cranberry sauce and vegan tears though.

That is the saddest charcuterie board.

So

to clarify this for me, what exactly is veganism?

Because Vegetarian you eat mostly are all vegetables, but vegan, some people don't eat honey.

It's like all confusing for us normies.

Yeah, I mean, it does get confusing, and I think it's a sort of a personal definition, but it can be really simple.

Vegan is no animal products, period.

Wow.

No dairy, no eggs, no leather.

If it moves, clucks, squirts, milk, or it's tested on a bunny, I'm not buying it.

Got it.

And that's way different from vegetarians.

They're just kind of like meat light.

They'll eat animal products, maybe.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many labels and definitions, right?

There's lacto-vegetarians that eat dairy with their plant-based diet.

Yeah, lacto-ovo, I've heard of.

Right.

And they eat eggs, and then pescatarians eat animals from the sea, which unfortunately these days, anything from the sea, even salt, is complicated because of all the microplastics, right?

Yeah, nothing says healthy eating like a side of microplastics, although that's in everything now.

I don't know if you, even being vegan, you...

can avoid that.

I know.

We're probably breathing them.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, not much we can do about that seasoning, I suppose.

Yeah, in fact, you are breathing it because I remember I did an episode on micro and nanoplastics a while ago, and one of the biggest offenders is the clothes, you know, when you wear like joggers, which I wear every day.

Basically, every time you take a step, these microscopic plastic fibers are flaking off those things as they wear.

And it's flying.

Oh, yeah, I think they're coming out of our dryer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then your dryer is just like a blower, right?

Like a jet engine blasting microplastics and nanoplastics out into the air.

Anyway, that's not what this episode's about.

So

here's the thing.

No, it's about something else that's depressing, guys.

Don't worry.

Here's the thing.

I eat meat, but I don't really understand why veganism freaks people out.

It's not a terrorist cell.

It doesn't really hurt me.

Maybe once in my life I've run into a vegan that's like, hey, eating meat is really unethical and you shouldn't do it.

But even that wasn't while I was eating a steak.

So what's the, who cares?

I know.

Vegans are just looked down on by some people.

Literally while I was writing this, I was listening to a Phillies game, and the commentator had to get a vegan dig in.

If I ever become a vegan, would you just punch me in the face as hard as you can?

Man, Kruck is hilarious, but man, let people eat their salad in peace.

Just don't evangelize to me through a quinoa bowl.

By the way, some things that vegans eat, I can't stand.

Quinoa is one of those things.

But like, oh, well, you don't eat steak, I don't eat quinoa.

Yeah, don't even come at me with that.

That's another skeptical Sunday super food.

It's a food, and just because you think it's super doesn't mean it has any special qualities.

Continue.

I'm not sure why any diet offends anyone else, but they do.

And for all kinds of reasons.

Like, calm down, John Kruk.

Nobody's trying to confiscate your brisket.

A farmer once aggressively poked me saying I and all vegans are the root of all the world's problems.

That's a deep.

I would love to see how he supports that one, right?

Like, it's definitely not Vladimir Putin invading Ukraine or like Kim Jong-un and his nuclear nuclear program or the United States napalming Vietnam.

It's those vegans, man.

It's those non-meat eaters.

Yeah.

I went to grad school in Iowa.

It was

eating that.

I could see that.

So I went on a vegan food tour.

This is way premature.

I probably should have saved this for later in the show, but I don't care.

I went on a vegan food tour in Peru that this guy had sort of tricked all of us in going on to.

He was a yoga guy and he's like, we're going on a food tour.

And he was vegan.

So I assumed it might be something like that.

Anyway, we did a vegan food tour.

So we would have like steak fritz, except it would just be the frits.

And we were like, this is a joke, right?

And then it was a bunch of alcohol.

And we were like, wait.

And he's like, I'm sorry, guys.

I humbly apologize.

This is the worst food tour, vegan or otherwise, that I've ever been on my whole life.

Cause they just took all the meat dishes, which is everything in Peru, which is so meat heavy.

And they just took the meat out.

So it'd be like a plate of salad of lettuce, of cabbage, and like fries.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, I triple I'm never becoming vegan again, especially if I live anywhere like this.

But some meat eaters in that situation would get so emotional about that.

Right.

Right.

Right.

I mean, I definitely went through my militant vegan phase as like an angsty teenager, but I've grown up.

I've chilled.

So stop trying to sneak meat on my plate and call it a treat, though.

Yeah, calling meat a little treat, though, is exact.

That's the exact energy of every Midwestern grandma ever.

That's like, oh, she doesn't eat meat because she thinks it's bad for you.

Well, you know what?

I won't tell anyone.

Here's a little little fillet.

It's like, that's not.

Yeah, we'll sneak some stock into her.

Well, let's let's get to the meat of it, shall we?

Why go vegan in the first place?

What's the impetus?

I mean, for me and many vegans, it's psychological first.

I can't separate the murder from my plate.

As a kid, I even hated the zoo.

You know, more than once, I cried while being forced to finish pork chops.

And as an adult, I don't think I could choke down a burger with a gun to my head.

It's not politics.

It's just who I am.

It's how I'm built.

But there's also science and ethics behind it.

And I want to stress that you have to listen to your body.

The same diet isn't right your entire life.

And the same diet is not right for everyone.

It's weird hearing this because my daughter's a picky eater.

And I don't force or threaten my kids to eat stuff.

I just, they're little.

So maybe when they're a teenager, I'll get more sick of them not eating things.

But I don't know.

It seems like when we were growing up, if you made food and your kid didn't eat it, parents were like, I'm going to take this personally.

And it's like, what are you doing?

They don't want to eat it.

Who?

It's not like an indictment of you as a mother, right?

It's a pork chop.

Calm down.

Dad will eat it tomorrow.

It's really not a big deal.

And when I talk to my vegan friends, like Gabriel, you, I've got a friend, Jackie, who's a vegan, we went hiking and stuff.

I was like, I just kind of have to accept that I'm hypocritical, right?

I would never eat my dog.

I would never eat anybody's dog for that matter, right?

Except for the the time I tried dog in North Korea.

Don't judge me.

I had to do it once.

But like, I would never do that.

So, why am I comfortable with somebody raising a cow, killing it, cutting up that cow into pieces, and then me eating it?

It's just, you have to, if you're eating meat at some level, you kind of have to just accept that level of hypocrisy.

And when you do that, it's a little bit uncomfortable because, well, you're admitting that you are a hypocrite in certain ways, but like, I don't know why then you get mad at vegans for like highlighting that part of you.

That's not their fault.

I don't know.

Because I think you're offending people's culture in a way.

Yeah, yeah, you're right.

Who cares?

Like, don't take it personally.

I don't know.

Am I thicker skinned than I thought?

I didn't think that was me, but here we are.

All right.

So most people don't swear off steak because of zoo animal nightmares.

So what's the bigger picture here?

You were clearly sensitive, but maybe there's other reasons people are vegan.

Yeah, I mean, there's tons of reasons people are vegan.

And for some, there's even a genetic component, which I think is part of why I'm vegan.

Okay.

Because different bodies tolerate different diets.

Some folks thrive on paleo.

Others feel like they're digesting gravel.

Some feel more energetic.

Some get meat sweats and feel like they've just climbed 50 flights of stairs.

And your diet can shift over time, too.

So the food you eat affects how you feel and sometimes dramatically.

Oh, yeah.

So learning to listen to your body, that's the most important thing.

That is a fair point.

Not what other people think, you know?

That's a fair point.

As a meat eater, I was talking to Jen and we were like, oh, we haven't been to this place in a while.

It's one of our favorite lunch spots.

And she goes, every time I eat there, it's Indian food and it's really good.

And she's like, every time I eat there, I feel really heavy and lethargic for the rest of the day.

So we basically stopped going there except on maybe a Friday where we're just like the afternoon, we're not doing anything because I can't even work.

And then it's like your stomach kind of.

hurts because it's just super heavy, spicy, buttery, oily meat.

And again, delicious, but just too much.

So it would be really crazy for me to think, I can't eat that, but like you should be able to eat meat and not have the exact same effect that I get from that restaurant, right?

It's not comfortable.

And if you were doing that two or three meals a day, it would just be a lifestyle decrease.

Like it would be, it would materially affect your well-being throughout the day.

Absolutely.

Being vegan, it goes beyond health and genetics.

There's also, like you were talking about the dogs.

There's also ethics as a huge driver towards veganism.

Peter Singer, the Princeton professor of bioethics and animal rights, he's kind of a legend in the vegan community.

He wrote a book called Animal Liberation in 1975.

And he argued, you shouldn't ask if animals can reason.

You should ask if they can suffer.

Because if they can suffer, they matter full stop.

And that's what matters to some people.

Other people don't care.

Yeah.

Well, this is where the hypocrisy thing I mentioned earlier comes in, right?

Because I do care.

And yet I'm like, well, I don't want to see it or hear about it or know about it, which is like, is that solving the problem?

Like, that's as blatant as it gets.

So you're kind of tugging on my humanity here, but feed my cynicism.

If veganism is so magical, why do I hear about so many vegans basically fainting on their yoga mats from nutrient deficiencies?

Because people think vegan means healthy, and it doesn't.

Oreos, technically vegan.

French fries are vegan.

Most vodka is vegan.

It doesn't mean any of that is good for you.

So if you skip your B12 and your iron, you're going to crash, no matter what your diet is.

I see.

So being vegan means you're morally superior and low in iron.

Got it.

Okay.

I mean, only if you're doing it wrong.

Done right, a vegan diet is complete and healthy and sustainable, but it takes some homework.

David Smalley, who used to do skeptical Sundays with me early on in the show, we were talking, I can't remember what topic this was, but he was like, I stopped being vegan.

And one of the reasons was he told me that when he was on tour, he's a touring comedian.

When he was on tour, a lot of the only vegan food he could find, you know, outside of like Albuquerque or whatever, or wherever he was, was Skittles.

And he's like, So I ate a bag of Skittles for dinner.

And I'm just like, I don't know if you're doing the vegan thing right, dude.

I'm

not a pundit on this one, but like something tells me that that's not really how this goes, ideally.

One, I question if Skittles are actually vegan.

Yeah.

Two, I mean, even gas gas stations and 7-Eleven have fruit for sale.

It might not look that appetizing, but it's there.

That's true.

I didn't even think about that.

Yeah, you could have had like three bananas in an apple, bro.

So, okay.

So homework is required, basically, is where I'm going with this.

It's easier to be vegan now, I would imagine, in 2025 than it was in, say, 1995.

You can even go to a fast food joint and there's probably something plant-based or close to it.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, it's sort of easier.

It's that, is it better?

Probably not.

I see.

Back in the day, you didn't have impossible burgers and vegan cheese that sweats in the package.

I mean, I learned to cook really young.

You know, I made stocks.

I made my own tofu cheeses.

I would make seitan from scratch.

Being vegan meant cooking a lot.

It actually led me to study health-based cooking at the Natural Gourmet Institute for Health and Culinary Arts in New York City.

And it was a program that taught cooking for all kinds of health conditions.

You learned how to convert any recipe into a vegan dish, and it was meant to pump out a lot of private chefs.

So you went from punk squatter kitchens to celebrity chef school.

That's kind of like an indie movie waiting to happen.

Vegans 11.

It turned out I was really good with those lentils.

But ironically, veganism got less healthy as it got popular because big food companies cornered the market and pushed processed junk.

I see.

So the convenience definitely comes at a price.

Now you can be a junk food vegan,

which works against the health reasons of ditching meat.

That didn't even occur to me.

Right.

Because back in the 90s or the 80s, if you were vegan, it's like, okay, go buy a bunch of farm fresh vegetables and stuff and start learning how to make it.

And now it's like, no, just go to Burger King and get the Impossible Whopper.

And it's like, it's not the same, obviously.

Yeah.

And this points to a common problem today because a key ingredient to being vegan is reading labels.

Our food labels are full of complicated language.

So you've got to educate yourself.

And it's not just food, it's clothes, it's makeup, it's beauty products.

Oh, you can eat a vegan diet, but if you're eating those Skittles on your leather couch and buying mascara made with fish flakes, you're kind of a walking contradiction.

Yeah, I didn't didn't even think about that i i forgot it's not just about food right so but wait fish flakes and mascara tell me about that yeah it's called guanine it gives a shimmer to many cosmetics and nail polish and it's derived from fish scales okay there's a weird myth i actually believed for a long time that it comes from bat droppings but that's guano yeah that's guano i mean either way gross you know what though i will say i'm glad it's fish scales and not like we put nanoplastics in here that are shiny to make it have a shimmer.

It's like yeah, that's true.

That's true.

I don't know.

So you're not just reading food labels.

You're basically you got to do like a CSI investigative thing, nightline, dateline, NBC every time you go to Sephora.

Right.

And enhance that shimmer.

Zoom in on the fish guts.

Like this is such a pain in the ass, man.

Yeah, I mean, it is, kind of.

I don't do gel manicures because of the tallow and there's animal bry products.

I don't buy honey.

Some vegans do.

I mean, I don't consider myself militant.

I'm open to what everybody's into.

I used to live on St.

Croix

and the connection the locals there have to their food, that actually led me to sort of step out of my vegan comfort zone, try things out of my character.

I knew a beekeeper on the island and when he pulled this hot honeycomb from one of his hives, I mean, I chewed it like gum.

And I mean, I still remember it as one of the greatest treats I've ever had.

There was a Rasta on the island who he was more fascinated with my veganism than I was with his Rasta lifestyle.

And he introduced me to animals by name.

He took me through the process of how, you know, they honor, kill, and quarter their animals before feeding essentially the whole town.

I tried to eat that flesh after it was cooked and I did barf, but I tried.

That's just not what's happening in most of our communities, though.

That's true.

The honey thing, explain that to me, though, because we used to be beekeepers, nerdler, Jen especially, and you can take a bunch of that stuff away from the bees and it doesn't hurt them.

Like there's no material issue with taking a little bit of honeycomb or a little bit of honey from the beehive.

You give them plenty.

They don't even use it all.

I mean, it's just like they make more than they need.

It's really not an issue.

For me, it's not about the ethics of, I don't think bees are being harmed.

I get that that's the process

for me.

It's and we've talked about this on other shows.

It's that I think any honey you're buying in, I don't, I just don't trust it.

I don't.

Oh, yeah, you're right not to trust honey in the house.

I think it's other things that is going on with that.

It's not necessarily the animal rights for me with the honey.

It's

I think that's just fructose.

You're getting high fructose corn syrup in that little bear that you're getting at Kroger.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And speaking of Kroger, I don't know if they're also thanking the animals by name before they throw the meat on the scale.

That's that's not a thing.

I don't think so, but hey, we all have to eat, right?

And, you know, if I'm at a non-vegan restaurant, I'm not interrogating the waiter about the ingredients in the free bread basket.

You know, you can't be too uptight about it, especially in public.

As long as you don't have allergies, you just make informed, quiet choices, and you skip what's questionable.

I will say one thing that does drive me nuts at animal-based restaurants, though, is how many salad menus don't have a vegan option.

That's kind of funny.

I never thought about that.

It's like, you're so close to having a vegan option.

Just don't put steak in it or blue cheese crumbles or something.

Egg.

It's crazy.

Yeah, it's got to be frustrating.

And it's also fair that nothing would scream lame dinner guests like somebody holding a black light over the dinner rolls.

Look, I might not be giving up cheese anytime soon, but I will take a break here to talk about something way more digestible, the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Constant Contact.

Running your own thing is volatile.

AI shifts weekly.

Costs are up.

The only move is to keep growing.

For me, the hardest part is marketing always.

I can prep 15 hours for an interview, but marketing was in the past an Achilles heel.

That's why I recommend Constant Contact.

It's an award-winning, all-in-one platform that lets you spin up email, social, events, landing pages, and just a few clicks, no tool juggling.

Their AI content generator turns rough ideas into ready-to-send messages fast.

And hundreds of templates keep everything on brand.

You get automated sending, real-time reporting, and tools that actually drive sales.

So you're not just broadcasting, you're growing.

Pricing is transparent based on your contact list.

Deliverability is 97%, not in the spam dungeon.

And friendly phone support is included.

That's why over half a million small businesses trust Constant Contact.

If marketing feels endless, Constant Contact is the mini team on your desktop keeping you moving forward.

Constant Contact, helping the small stand tall.

Get a free 30-day trial when you go to constantcontact.com.

Try Constant Contact free for 30 days at constantcontact.com.

This episode is also sponsored by Brain FM.

Focus the struggle for you?

Try brain.fm, an app built for anybody who wants to boost productivity with science-backed music that syncs brain patterns.

So you can focus better, relax deeper, sleep easier.

I open it, I hit deep work.

Within a few minutes, I'm dialed in, man.

No lyric distractions, no playlist tinkering.

When I'm in focus mode, answering emails, prepping for interviews, I rotate deep work, creative, motivation.

There's even turbo mode for ADHD support, we'll say.

At night, flip to the relax and sleep stuff for a little power down.

Brain.fm is the only music company supported by a National Science Foundation grant to improve people's focus.

They recently published a study in the nature journal Communications Biology showing their patented music tech increases activity in attentional networks, doubles neurosynchrony at focus-related brainwave frequencies, wowza, and improves attentional task performance in people with ADHD symptomology.

You know what else does that?

Methamphetamine.

But brain.fm won't ruin your entire life.

Probably.

They're going to love this ad.

Their mission is simple.

Help people around the world focus with an easy tool, especially folks who need it most.

Unlock your brain's full potential free for 30 days by going to brain.fm slash jordan.

That's brain.fm slash jordan for 30 days free.

Don't forget about our newsletter, We BitWiser.

It is practical.

It is a two-minute read or less every Wednesday.

JordanHarbinger.com slash news is where you can find it.

It's a great companion to the show.

A lot of you love to engage with it there.

You can always hit reply and talk to us.

Again, jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it.

Now, back to Skeptical Sunday.

So, what about dairy?

Would you dabble in like farm fresh cheese, or is it like, hey, the cow is suffering just by being here?

I mean, personally, I'd rather eat meat than an animal's eggs or milk.

Oh, no, I love milk.

It's so good.

And eggs, for that matter.

I mean, it probably tastes really good, but we're not meant to consume animal milk, not cow's milk, not even human milk beyond a certain point.

I mean, ask a breastfeeding woman for a sip of her milk and you're a monster.

All the time.

Oh, I mean, I've never done that.

But somehow the cow we force to lactate, that's totally fine.

It's just super duper weird.

And science agrees.

So many studies show that there is...

No biological reason for drinking other species' milk.

In fact, it's linked to higher risks of cancers and heart disease.

I just do it for the protein, man.

But every time I chug a whole milk latte, do you just think I'm a monster?

I mean, what if I milk the cow myself?

Well, that might even be worse.

Well, yeah.

I'll just let Apoo from The Simpsons answer that.

I don't eat any food that comes from an animal.

Oh, then you must think I'm a monster.

Yes, indeed, I do think that.

Wow, I've been a pooed.

I mean, honestly, look, i think you can eat whatever you want but here's the thing every other mammal stops drinking milk after weaning except humans and then we go and treat lactose intolerance like a medical flaw when it's actually the biological norm so people's digestive systems are actually fine it's the latte that's weird it's more than weird it's potentially risky dairy is full of casine

and there's some studies that show it might promote tumor growth.

If it does, that can lead to cancer.

Yeah, I know that the, first of all, tumors gross.

A lot of the problem with this stuff, though, is I think it's like animal studies, but also you can't really promote tumor growth in humans ethically.

So I don't know.

It scares me when it's an animal study because it's like, well, this isn't in humans.

And it's like, yeah, but if the pig got a bunch of tumors when being exposed to this and other things, that freaks me out.

So yeah, okay, milk builds strong bones so we can grow up and look like Olympians on the Wheaties box.

That's what the commercials promise, right?

So I need that.

I need the protein.

That's the marketing.

But I mean, look around.

You know, I don't think that's really working.

You know, in reality, we have to look at who's funding these studies because if the study's funded by the dairy industry, it might not be showing us the link to prostate cancer.

And just, by the way, as an aside, my PSA here, fellas, get your PSA levels checked.

No, did I actually do this every time I get blood work because prostate cancer is no joke.

A lot of men get it.

So check your prostate specific antigen levels regularly.

Nothing will ruin your latte more than prostate cancer, really.

And then aside from all these iffy studies on dairy, ethically, dairy can be seen as cruel.

Keeping mammals in constant lactation for mozzarella sticks, I don't think there's a good reason.

And those gut milk ads, they kind of come across to me as less of a question and more of a threat.

But the dairy industry is powerful and it gets its udders in us at a really young age.

That's true.

It is a little chilling.

It's kind of dystopian chilling.

The got milk is what the villain says right before the laser beam fires in your indie movie.

So veganism is less diet and more like a moral operating system.

Yeah, I mean, it can be just about food, but for many vegans, it's about the lifestyle.

It's how you shop, dress, how you clean your house, how you moisturize, and just basically show up in the world.

It's not about being perfect.

It's about being conscious.

And yes, that might mean giving up ice cream.

Yeah, by the way, milk is linked to prostate cancer.

It's just not causal.

But it's like, well, if you're drinking a lot of this stuff and make sure you're checking your PSA levels, I just want to be clear about that.

This is one of those topics where it's really hard to say this causes that.

And the links can be there or they can be not there.

They could be there.

And then, hey, the dairy industry who funded this study wants to say that they're not there.

I don't know.

It's confusing.

I'm not going to give up my milk, but I'm definitely going to check my PSA levels at least once, maybe twice per year, or maybe more because I drank a ton of milk.

Anyway, yeah, so you're the monster.

A life without ice cream sounds cruel and unusual.

Is there a substitute?

Don't tell me I got to eat like cashew ice cream.

I mean, I don't think there's any substitute out there that's worth my time, but that vegan Ben and Jerry's will help ice cream cravings for some people.

But store-bought vegan ice cream, it's just kind of a sugary, expensive lie.

I mean, my advice, throw some peeled bananas and berries in the freezer and then throw them in the blender with a little water or plant-based milk, and that's a pretty good dessert.

But expecting substitutes, that's a myth.

Same for those vegan cheeses, vegan chickens.

It's all just kind of over-processed disappointment.

And sometimes you just have to give things up.

For people who are upset about this, I want to say the paleo keto diet people have to do this too, right?

The people who are doing the opposite of veganism, that are only the carnivore diet people, it's like they can't have pizza, right?

Because it has bread in it or whatever.

So they're like, here's paleo pizza.

And the crust is, I don't even know, whatever, animal skin.

I have no clue.

But it's like, stop trying to make something that substitutes another thing that's bad for you.

Just have a different thing or give up that thing.

And that's harsh, but fair.

A lot of non-vegans, they don't want to contend with giving up anything.

We got the food pyramid drilled into our heads in kindergarten, a little of everything, including a lot of animal protein.

Do you all have your own food pyramid?

I mean, of course there is, but I don't think anybody, vegan or not, needs a visual chart to eat well and stay healthy.

It should be simple.

Eat whole foods, fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, some homemade trail mix if you're feeling crunchy.

I mean, that's it.

So basically don't eat like a raccoon in a gas station.

The benefits of eating whole foods even without veganism are pretty well documented.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, the problem is corporations saw the profit loss from people ditching meat and they flooded the shelves with ultra-processed vegan junk.

They make eating well complicated so they can sell solutions.

I mean, if I don't want to eat animals, why would I want to eat something shaped like a chicken wing?

Yeah,

that's true.

My daughter likes those dinosaur-shaped chicken nuggets, and it's like they, you know, they're disgusting.

But she doesn't want the regular-shaped ones.

I don't know why that reminded me of that.

All right.

So not, here's the problem.

Not all of us can get a culinary PhD in lentils like you have.

I mean, that's totally fair.

But nutrition should be a bigger part of our basic education in school.

I agree.

Yeah.

And I get it.

Some people love that primal feeling of tearing flesh off bone.

But I mean, even if you eat meat, you need to eat fruits, vegetables, and healthy fats.

It's the balance that matters.

Yeah, you know, it's funny.

When I met Jen, if this is our first date, second date, I don't know, third date, whatever, I ate a chicken wing and I put it down on the plate and she's like, you're not done with that, are you?

And I was like, yeah, I ate the chicken off of it.

And she's like, oh, no.

And she proceeds to like gnaw.

all these little like bits of meat off the thing and like she's like

the the cartilage is on there and she's like crunching it and i was like i don't know if i'm in love or totally disgusted i have we have to keep dating before i make a decision on that because i've never seen anything like this in my life wow that's awesome it was just straight caveman i was like you oh my god thankfully she didn't do this on one of our first dates but later i think we went to china she ate a chicken foot like literally a chicken foot oh yeah oh yeah i remember telling her i was like if you had done that within i don't know the first like four months of us dating,

we would not be together right now.

Do I want to kiss that?

Yeah, I mean, here's the thing, like as a guy who eats meat, it shouldn't be a big deal.

But I'm trying to, I think, explain that the way vegans probably see meat eaters is the way a meat eater sees somebody gnawing on a chicken foot.

And they're just like, oh my God, I can't.

No, I can't.

Or those, when you put the live, I know it's popular in South Korea.

You put those live, are they like small octopus or something?

It's like they're suction inside of your mouth.

So I had that.

I had that in South Korea.

Yeah.

It's a live squid, I think, or octopus, and they cut it and it's moving around in the plate and you put it in your mouth.

You dip it in the sauce and you put it in your mouth.

And you have to swallow it quickly because it can get stuck in your throat and it does kill people.

Because it'll get stuck in your windpipe.

Because it's fighting for its life.

Yeah, it's really, really, really extra gross.

I think I put a video of it up on my Instagram.

Oh, really?

Where it's like moving in the chopsticks and you see me eat it.

And I'm like, never again.

Yeah, it's absolutely insane.

And yeah, a certain amount of people die every single year eating that because they choke.

And some people love it, but does loving something mean you should do it?

You know?

No, not necessarily.

Plus, if all you eat is meat, you quickly become deficient in fiber, vitamins, and certain minerals.

And there's studies that show these meat-heavy diets are raising the risk of heart disease, high blood pressure, possibly cancers, and a variety of other health conditions.

This doesn't happen with a balanced diet, vegan or not.

I just can't stress how much the balance matters.

And on the other side of that, an all-carrot diet, that'll turn your skin orange and cause all kinds of health problems.

Like ask Steve Jobs.

Wait, so Steve Jobs only ate carrots, like billionaire Bugs Bunny.

For a while, yeah, he only ate carrots.

Wow.

He turned orange, literally, ended up in the hospital.

He believed in fruitarianism and long fasts would detox his body, but it caused him all kinds of problems.

So extreme diets, vegan or otherwise, they're just terrible ideas.

That brings us to the stereotype, though, that vegans are deficient in everything.

Are they just slow rolling towards collapse or what?

I mean, only if you're doing it wrong, like your buddy eating all those Skittles.

You can't live on French fries and vegan mayo.

A healthy vegan diet takes thought, like any diet.

Right.

I do see vegans get treated like it's some sort of death sentence and get made fun of by meatheads like me.

Yeah, and it's frustrating because non-vegans have health problems too.

Well, yeah.

But vegans have to defend their diet to people who are eating McDonald's and frozen meatloaf and hormone-laced meat injected with carbon monoxide to keep it looking red.

I've been ridiculed for decades for eating from my garden by family, by friends, and most of them are now obese, diabetic, or dead.

Society just isn't built for vegans, but any optimal diet starts with fresh produce and healthy fats.

This maintains healthy gut flora, which is crucial to avoiding inflammatory disorders, which is the root of a lot of our health issues.

Yeah, okay, but there are problems with a vegan diet.

Let's start with B12, vitamin B12.

That's a big one, right?

Yeah, it's huge.

B12 is critical for blood and brain function.

To get the necessary amount of B12 from nature, you'd have to eat so much algae and seaweed, it would be unpleasant.

Yeah.

And low B12 is super problematic and can cause things like anemia.

It's primarily found in animal products.

So if you're vegan, take a B12 supplement, no exceptions.

Nutritional yeast and fortified foods help, but bottom line, take that B12 pill.

So if you don't eat meat, you kind of have to fake it with a pill, at least with that.

It just kind of sounds like an argument that we are designed to eat meat.

It's just like meat eaters need to take fiber.

You know, everybody's supplementing something.

That's true.

And it's like saying, hey, we're not designed to fly.

Don't get on that plane.

You know, we've made it to the top of the food chain.

And Louis C.K.

points out hilariously that we don't fully appreciate that.

I don't know if we fully appreciate the fact that we got out of the food chain.

For every other living thing, life ends by being eaten.

Every life ends like this.

And I'm eating babies.

This is bullshit.

Louis C.K.

tearing it up as usual.

Okay, but another red flag is the frequent vegan iron deficiency argument.

Another supplement.

To go vegan, do you have to take 50 pills a day?

No, B12 is the only tricky one.

I mean, that said, iron is essential for the production of red blood cells, and plant-based iron is absorbed differently than iron from animals.

The trick is to pair plant iron with vitamin C.

So broccoli plus lemon juice, that's a vegan's best friend.

Add beans, nuts, figs, dark greens, and you're good with the iron and you have a little tasty meal.

I have to supplement iron, which is weird because I eat a ton of meat.

It just doesn't make any sense, but here we are.

And the iron comes with vitamin C in the pill because of absorption or something along those lines.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just, it's your genetics.

Like you need that.

Yeah, the blood work was pretty obvious.

And it was like, you're, you're low on ferritin.

And I was like, I thought men usually had too much iron.

They're like, are you vegan?

I was like, absolutely not.

And they're like, all right, well, your body's using a ton of iron somehow.

The fiber thing was surprising.

I did a recommendation of the week a couple of months ago to eat chia seed pudding because I was getting, I did the math.

I log everything I eat.

I was getting like, I don't know, 10 grams of fiber per day or something on a lot of days, which is not enough.

It's like a third of what you need.

And then I started eating chia seed pudding, which gives me like all my days' fiber in one sitting.

Oh, that's great.

It was great.

Yeah.

Chia seeds are like where it's at.

And my cholesterol went down like 30%.

What?

Yeah.

Now, that's amazing.

That's not going to happen to everybody.

That was just my body was probably like, oh, we're trying to get rid of this cholesterol, bad cholesterol, whatever, triglyceride stuff.

But we can't because this idiot's not eating enough fiber.

And then as soon as I hit that lever, it was like, oh, good, we can dump this stuff.

So now my cholesterol is crazy good.

Our bodies are amazing.

Bodies are amazing, but it just goes to show you that, like, oh, fiber, what's the big deal?

I'm pooping fine.

It's like, well, that's not all it is.

more than that yeah that's not all it is your body needs the soluble fiber not just the insoluble fiber etc etc it's true that women need more iron than men right usually i don't know about you but but usually that's the case and that's because of our periods when we lose blood we lose iron and magnesium and our bodies are amazing and our cravings tell us what we are deficient in so chocolate it's high in iron and magnesium and those monthly chocolate cravings women get that's just your body asking for what you're losing.

That's crazy.

The uterus is like, hey, can I get some of those minerals over here?

Yeah, I got some minerals for you.

Anyway, plus how my body is screaming for a whopper is actually saying, what, give me processed beans?

Well, I mean, interpretation of those cravings is key.

Yeah.

So instead of a whopper, have some collard greens with those beans because...

Animal blood is so high in iron.

There's a misconception that vegans don't get enough.

But iron's not a problem for the vegan diet if you're supplementing it the right way, if you're eating the right things.

You'll get the same exact answer about zinc, but I mean, you just have to eat the real stuff, not vegan hot dogs, not vegan Doritos, not Skittles, eat legumes, nuts, and seeds.

Okay, what about calcium?

That's milk's whole sales pitch.

That's another myth.

Calcium and omega-3s are really easy to get from plants, but numerous studies show vegans just aren't getting enough calcium or vitamin D, which can lead to a higher risk of bone fractures.

It doesn't mean vegans miss out on those things.

They're just not eating enough of it.

So calcium is needed to maintain our healthy bones and teeth.

So vegans have to make sure they're eating tons of dark leafy greens, broccoli, cabbage, bok choy, tofu, soy milk.

These are all great sources.

If you're only buying those frozen vegan chicken tenders, you're missing out.

If you live in the UK, though, by law, they fortify the flour.

So your toast is basically a vitamin, which is kind of cool.

Yeah.

But the one thing to be mindful of is spinach.

That actually blocks calcium absorption.

So plan accordingly.

Spinach is lying to us.

Popeye, you fraud.

Maybe the produce section should actually, this is not even a joke.

Maybe the produce section should actually have nutrition labels too, or warning labels like this spinach will ghost your calcium.

Because one, I had no idea.

And two, if you think about it, natural stuff should also have a label showing what's in it.

I totally agree.

Maybe it does.

I mean, I never go shopping, but I don't think so.

I don't think the protozyle has any such thing.

No, I don't think so.

That would be a great idea because I think it would really help people.

Because spinach, it's kind of the Benedict Arnold of greens.

You know, it looks healthy, but it's kind of betraying your bones.

And your body needs vitamin D to regulate calcium.

So you have to eat those other greens and eat them in the sun to make sure that you're getting enough calcium and vitamin D.

And eating a ton of mushrooms helps.

Mushrooms?

So that's the plan?

So my skeleton depends on the pizza topping that nobody besides me actually wants?

Well, you'd have to eat a ton of them to get enough vitamin D3,

but they definitely help.

The only other supplement I take aside from B12 is D3.

So taking a vitamin D supplement, it's a healthy idea vegan or not especially in winter months or if you're just not an outdoorsy person because so many of us just don't get enough sun yeah that's funny when i was a kid i used to house mushrooms they were coated in ranch dressing i don't know if that's exactly the same thing it still counts

but yeah great i'd add that to the list of things i'm deficient in right in right underneath hope

don't

don't vegans need to eat fish to get omega-3s in their diet too i take a ton of omega-3 and I eat a ton of fish and I'm still

deficient in a bunch of stuff.

Yeah, I mean, omega-3 fatty acids are important for a heart-healthy diet, and they're found in oily fish, but they're also found in nuts and seeds.

There's evidence that shows plant sources of omega-3s don't reduce heart disease like those in oily fish.

But if you're living a vegan lifestyle, chances are you don't smoke.

You're probably more active, and that helps your heart health too.

Okay, but nuts and seeds aren't for everyone.

A lot of allergies out there.

Plus, you ever pay for pine nuts?

I had to refinance my car.

Oh, God.

It's true.

They're so expensive.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

But if you're allergic, supplements or fortified foods work.

You know, the real challenge isn't nutrition.

It's navigating the marketing minefield of fake health food claims.

That I can get behind.

Even meat eaters have to admit that the amount of meat we now consume with an insane level of ease and convenience, vastly different from what even a generation ago, my parents never, they would be like, oh, Fridays we get to eat meat or whatever in our house, right?

Because it was like the day that they splurged on dinner, so nobody would miss it.

My understanding is that ancient man, especially, maybe they ate meat once a week if there was a big hunt.

And then for a lot of humanity, they'd never got it, right?

Because they were poor or they got it rarely.

Imagine explaining a drive-through double baconator to a caveman.

It'd be like, what?

Why does the cheese glow?

Right.

I mean, I think that's a big misconception that our ancestors were just chomping on meat constantly.

Yeah.

Surviving off of the mammoth.

They ate plenty of fruits and veggies, you know, and we need that.

We need fiber.

We need less saturated fat.

These are all good ideas for everyone.

And what's complicating all of this is the food industry because they figured out vegans vegans have wallets too and they jumped in with all that ultra processed fake meat stuff which is by the way loaded with sodium i avoid beyond impossible i honestly sorry impossible i know you're trying to do a great thing but i feel like crap if i eat that stuff and other brands like it that are popping up because the sodium level of those products They're just out of control.

And many people agree with me, those fake meats are kind of gross.

So I took a vegan cooking class and my new thing is facing.

It's like real bacon.

Except for the look, the texture, and the taste.

Maybe the store-bought kind, but I make my own, so it's not even real facing.

It's faux facing, folk in.

Focusing, disgusting.

You can't tell the difference.

And guess which one's the real?

That one.

That one.

Still that one.

Yeah, those plant-based meats, they're like salt licks.

I got to say, I always had a hunch those were going to shake out really bad for us because it's highly processed stuff, right?

I mean, that's just how it always ends up.

And it's one of those like, hey, it's the Skittles are vegan of meat.

Yeah.

And it's like, what's better?

The

factory farming or

sodium.

I don't know.

Right.

It's just kind of like skip the meat thing.

Don't try and like make something that sort of tastes like meat, but isn't because you're going to have to process the crap out of something else.

And real bacon is what makes bacon taste so good.

So sorry, vegans.

Fine, but again, it's all all about that balance.

We're sort of lucky that in the Western world we get to base what we eat on taste and carbs.

Personally for me, and I know this is blasphemous, the smell of bacon is nauseating, but that's in my head because food doesn't just affect our physical health, it impacts our mental health.

Because you're depressed, you can't have a steak or a cheeseburger?

I don't think that's why.

I mean, maybe it's from getting roasted for ordering salads with dressing on the side.

I don't know.

Aw, so is vegan depression real or is that a conspiracy from big meat?

Coincidentally, my nickname in high school?

I still call you that.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a bit of both.

You know, some studies link vegan diets to a higher rate of depression and anxiety, but the data, again, it's all over the place.

There's funding bias.

There's bad sample sizes.

Plus, they lump in salad eaters with those cap and crunch vegans.

Oh, cap and crunch is so good.

I just bought some recently.

It's vegan, I think.

Fan of who, yeah, but also, who cares?

Fantastic.

But now that I'm an adult, I have one handful and I'm like, okay, enough of this candy-flavored bread.

Like, how did I eat a whole bowl of that and then reload?

That's my question.

How are we given that stuff for breakfast?

Also, how is that allowed?

Exactly.

So if I go, by the way, peanut butter cap and crunch, even better/slash more disgusting?

So if I go vegan and I feel sad, it might be the Oreos, not the almond milk.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, depression knows no diet.

I reviewed 18 studies comparing 150,000 meat eaters to 9,000 meat abstainers.

45% showed worse mental health for the plant-based crowd.

A few were inconclusive.

And then about half showed better outcomes for the plant-based.

There's just so many variables.

It's hard to know how much diet alone plays a role.

It's just, it's really messy science.

Yeah, it's really, that's got to be really hard to study.

I wonder if vegans over-index for depression because they tend to be people who think about this stuff a lot more and maybe they're more sensitive or they're more empathetic, which is not, you know, that's going to be tough in today's world.

Meanwhile, the guy shotgunning corn dogs, not exactly journaling about climate change most of the time.

Right.

I mean, it cuts both ways, but there are significantly less studies on the mental health of just meat eaters.

You know, you're not going to see a headline saying steak causes sadness.

Like that would be bad for business.

Yeah, I guess if you're broke and living with a mean roommate, a buffalo is not going to fix your serotonin.

So chicken or egg,

does food mess with the brain or does brain mess with food?

I mean, it seems both.

Extreme eating can spiral into a condition called orthorexia,

which is an eating disorder caused with this unhealthy obsession with clean eating.

This would describe what we said about Steve Jobs extremes, but it's any extreme diet that triggers problems, including veganism or meat-only diets.

Yeah, we had a Feedback Friday question come in.

I don't know if we took this one because it was kind of like a simple go see a therapist answer, or maybe it's pending, whatever.

But it was a guy, a woman wrote in and said that she found a bowl in the bathroom and she kept moving the bowl and like putting it in the sink and then one time she's like are you eating in the bathroom to her boyfriend and he got like really weird about it and then she found the bowl again and again and again and he was like hiding the bowl and she's like okay what's the deal with the bowl and he had to admit that he was weighing his poop oh my gosh in a bowl right so he was like pooping in a bowl and then putting it in the toilet and then flushing it after weighing it and it's like why are you doing that just weigh yourself before and after you poop and he's like it's not as accurate and that turned out to be our opinion was that this is like an orthorexia issue, right?

He's got like a crazy diet and he like is so caught up in the numbers that being off by half an ounce is not acceptable to him.

Yeah.

Wow.

That, but people go through that.

I will say the squatty potty company makes those toilet seats that weigh your poop for you.

I did not know that.

Well, now I have, thanks a lot.

Another thing I got to go buy.

Jeez, wow.

Okay.

So the extreme Joe Rogan diet of like elk, bacon, and more elk, that would be considered an eating disorder, I guess?

Definitely.

Definitely.

A meat-only diet is a one-way trip to constipation, vitamin deficiencies, inflammation, and organ stress.

Studies from Harvard Health, Stanford, Oxford, and many others show it can actually take 10 to 15 years off your life if you're going hard on red meat and you're skipping that fiber.

Yeah, like I said, man, fiber was kind of an unsexy hero for me when it came to cholesterol.

But we should make fiber sexy.

Sure.

Gut health, mood, immunity, all kept happy by fiber.

And you only get it from plants.

The carnivore diet might look alpha, but skip plants and your colon's basically left on its own.

Some people skip meat.

Some people skip carbs.

You don't skip these ads.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Dell and NVIDIA.

These days, everything runs on tech.

Your flights, your bags, your boarding pass, your sandwich order.

So what happens when one piece of that invisible digital puzzle breaks?

In episode 9 of the cybersecurity tapes presented by NVIDIA, we get a front-row seat to a full-scale airline meltdown.

Not turbulence, not a snowstorm, a cyber attack.

An AI system meant to streamline everything accidentally opens the door to chaos.

Flights disappear.

Passengers vanish from the system, and nobody can figure out what's real anymore.

The threat didn't sneak through in some dramatic exploit.

It walked in disguised as a normal system update, something called slop squatting.

And trust me, you don't want to learn that term the hard way.

If you want to understand how these systems we rely on every day can fail and how to stop them from failing, check out the cybersecurity tapes.

Episode 9 is live now.

Listen before your next flight or maybe after.

I've got homes.com is a sponsor for this episode.

Homes.com knows what when it comes to home shopping, it's never just about the house or the condo.

It's about the homes.

And what makes a home is more than just the house or property.

It's the location.

It's the neighborhood.

If you got kids, it's also schools, nearby parks, transportation options.

That's why homes.com goes above and beyond to bring home shoppers the in-depth information they need to find the right home.

It's so hard not to say home every single time.

And when I say in-depth information, I'm talking deep.

Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide.

They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student-teacher ratio.

They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent.

So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know, all in one place, homes.com.

We've done your homework.

Thank you for listening to and supporting the show.

Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here.

All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/slash deals.

Now, for the rest of Skeptical Sunday.

All right, speaking of pains in my colon, let's talk about kids.

You eliminated animal products pretty young, but can you really raise a kid vegan without them turning into like a calcium deficient goblin?

Absolutely.

If you plan right.

It's really hard, though.

I just want to make that really clear.

Vegan kids, teens, and pregnant women all have higher nutritional demands.

So again, nailing that balance is crucial.

A vegan diet needs to be managed so carefully.

Right.

If my kids don't have their daily quota of string cheese, there's going to be a problem and possibly a 911 call.

It seems like it might be kind of a high risk to put a kid on a vegan diet, to say nothing of pets.

You know, those people who are trying to make their dog vegan?

I am really proud of my vegan lifestyle, and I think it's cruel to do that to pets.

They're not built that way.

They're not thinking that way.

I've had pets through the years.

They are carnivores because that's what they want, you know?

Yeah.

We could talk about that more, but I sort of think that's a full stop.

I think that's like giving your animal orthorexia.

I don't know.

Yeah, you're, you're sort of forcing a diet on an animal that's not going to adapt.

Yeah, that's ethically questionable for a whole different reasons, but there are dozens of studies that show vegan and vegetarian kids grow up just fine, sometimes even healthier, but their diets just need to be planned really carefully, especially regarding B12 and calcium.

Same with vegan pregnancies, because the nutrients in your body become your baby's building blocks.

So So if you skip one, there's risk.

And that risk comes from doing it wrong.

As always, it's important to look at who's funding the studies about this, though, because it's easy to find research that says both things.

It seems like it would be stressful to have a vegan pregnancy.

I mean, not at all, depending on who you are.

Many women do it, and it can be totally healthy.

The bigger issue is most doctors don't know about vegan nutrition, and that can lead to issues like low birth weight, poor fat reserves, which is important if you're breastfeeding, and other deficiencies.

And this continues if a vegan mommy breastfeeds.

So many vegan moms choose non-traditional births because traditional hospitals, they make it hard.

Hospitals just aren't vegan friendly.

But vegan pregnancies should be studied because there's actually data suggesting there's less postpartum depression among vegans.

Are pediatricians educated in vegan nutrition to help kids at all?

I mean, it seems very niche.

Yeah, not really.

And it's also kind of rare.

It's not a really common thing, although it's done.

It's not that common.

There was a recent study that compared like 150 vegetarians, 115 vegans, and I think it was 137 omnivore kids.

The vegetarians and vegans ate more carbs.

The omnivores ate more protein.

But when it came to all other vitamins and minerals, there were no differences and the researchers concluded there were no specific nutrient deficiencies in any of those groups but this was just one study and there's so many factors not accounted for and it's worth noting it is rare it's rare to be born and raised a vegan and we don't keep track of those statistics and it's not it the pediatricians aren't educated for that lifestyle.

It seems like such a huge gap in the medical community.

So there's no difference in development based on what kids are eating.

And I don't know, that's hard to believe.

Yeah.

That's tough.

I did find a study that pointed to children born and raised vegan come out slightly shorter than omnivore kids.

Aha, just kidding.

I know, but I don't know if that's such a flex because it's like,

well, yeah, our GMO tomatoes are bigger than natural tomatoes.

So I don't know why.

It might be the hormones that the non-vegan kids are eating that are making them taller.

So, I mean, that's the biggest difference I've come across, though, is the height.

So the designs of all these studies, they're really easy to poke holes in.

And of course, there's cases of malnourished vegans, but I see toddlers at McDonald's too.

So, I mean, is anybody doing this right?

I don't have kids.

Gross.

But if I did, I'd be fine raising them vegan at home.

That said, if my hypothetical toddler wanted pizza and cake at a birthday party, I don't think that should be an issue.

So you'd let your hypothetical kid eat pizza?

What a hypocrite.

Look at you.

Look, as long as there's no allergies involved, everyone, even kids, should try any food they want.

And social development matters here, too.

You know, food policing can traumatize kids.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Plus, it's pizza.

Like, let's be real.

I don't care what kind of vegan cheese wizardry you make, it sucks.

I've been vegan for over 30 years.

I've never found a good substitute for mammal-based cheese.

Yeah, raising kids without animal products is safe.

Okay, vegan pizza is gross.

Yes, McDonald's every day is a bad idea.

Bold take, fine.

I mean, definitely.

Like, do you remember Morgan Spurlock, the super size guy?

I do.

It's funny.

I was just thinking about that earlier.

He gained 25 pounds, right?

He wrecked his liver.

He got depressed.

He lost his sex drive.

All from one month of just eating McDonald's.

He died at 53 years old from cancer.

I mean, we can't say it was the McDonald's, but I don't think that could have helped.

Maybe, but I've also read he started abusing alcohol at the age of 13 and continued that through his fast food experiments.

I mean, if he's drinking like a bottle of vodka per day, is it the Big Macs though, Morgan?

Was it really...

You know, come on, man.

Yeah.

His partner actually, she was not in my class, but she attended that same health program I did at Natural Gourmet.

And I have heard lots of stories about that guy.

But regardless of his checkered past, he provided a lot of evidence with how quick junk food, specifically McDonald's, can change our bodies for the worse.

Yeah, fast food for sport is not a long-term health strategy, but hey, at least he was getting his protein, right?

We haven't mentioned, we haven't really mentioned it.

And that's kind of one of the big things that people throw at vegans is where do you get your protein?

I know.

I don't think this is a secret, but producer Gabriel, who is a vegan, one of the issues he always has is not getting enough protein.

And I think also he just, if you're willing to eat a larger volume of food, it's probably easier, but you know, he eats like a normal person.

When I go to his house and he makes these huge bowls of oatmeal and like protein stuff that's probably going to last him like two meals, I house the whole thing.

And you're still hungry.

No, no, I'm not.

But I, well, maybe an hour later.

But yeah, it's getting enough protein is not easy for vegans.

It's just there's

it can be tough.

I don't know.

This protein controversy, it's asked constantly, but I think, and Gabe, I hope you're listening.

I think it can be a total non-issue.

Protein panic, as far as at least personally for me, is a myth.

I think it's silly.

I mean, look around at nature.

Elephants, horses, giraffes, rhinos, they're all giant jacked vegans.

That's true.

Plant-based protein is everywhere.

Don't they also spend most of the day eating, though?

Eating, yeah.

I mean, that's it, right?

So

getting, getting enough protein as a vegan is fine.

You just have to spend eight out of your 10 waking hours eating bamboo.

There's a great vegan meme that shows two separate images and shows like a burger and fries in one stomach.

And okay, that's enough protein.

And then the other stomach is like 10 times that amount of fruits and vegetables.

You just have to eat so much more.

Yeah, my friend was vegan.

She came home.

You know, those party trays, not the big ones, but the medium party tray of vegetables.

I was like, What is that?

She's like, This is my lunch, and I thought she was kidding.

And I sat there with her for 90 minutes while she just non-stop ate every vegetable in this party tray.

Yeah, I think that was her lunch.

The problem, too, is we're so trained for three meals a day.

When I think, especially if you're vegan, it's sort of eat little and often.

You know, that's probably eat seven times a day for vegans.

Wow, but beans and broccoli can make you swole, eh?

Yeah, I mean, eat enough of them.

Yes, you know, there's a long list of vegan bodybuilders, Olympians, and NFL stars.

Cam Newton, really famous football player, does not want his roast beef Boston fans to know, sorry to call you out, Cam, that he credits his veganism with his speed and recovery times.

Because half an avocado, two grams of protein.

A cup of lentils, 18 grams of protein.

Throw in tofu, tempeh, quinoa, nuts.

It can start adding up really fast.

So we're just bamboozled bamboozled the protein myth thing is a bunch of nonsense.

I think so.

And maybe food change.

Like you think you're eating too much, but if you're not eating meat and dairy, it's okay to eat a bigger portion, you know?

There's a lot of myths that are born from a kernel of truth.

Plant proteins are less digestible than animal proteins, but that doesn't mean vegans don't absorb any protein.

It's not a flaw.

It's just how we're designed.

So vegans need to eat more.

The bonus is more fiber and better digestion.

So eat more salad, you sweat less, you poop better.

Everybody wins.

Okay, so meat eaters need to relax and stop acting like vegans are about to collapse mid-sentence.

That would be really nice.

But it does sell steak, right?

Death can be manly and it distracts from what they're depriving themselves of, like that fiber, antioxidants meat eaters lose out on, and not becoming obese by 30 and dying from heart disease at 57.

obesity obviously a real problem in the western world especially ozempic sales kind of prove that i suppose oh my gosh i know we should do an episode on that because yes now that people have been on it so long we're starting to see how horrible it is but anyway what's worse is the food industry pushing these ultra processed options you know I bet General Mills isn't making vegan yogurts and plant-based jerky because it's so considerate of our different eating habits.

It's not about health.

It's about their market share.

So veganism is just what you eat or what you don't eat.

Yeah, it's that lifestyle too.

Yeah, yeah.

There's research showing vegans have a longer life expectancy because the lifestyle matters.

Vegans, on average, they drink less, they smoke less, they're more active.

I mean, still, these studies are messy because of who funds them.

And a study funded by the dairy industry will have really different results than one funded by PETA.

Right.

Yeah, of course.

They both have their entrenched interests slash are going to be extreme.

Yeah, exactly.

PETA is extreme, and they are definitely militant.

And sometimes I think their tactics backfire.

I think they're coming from a good place.

But if you watch the footage that they've accessed, you would probably get outraged too.

You know, we have ag gag laws for a reason, and they're laws that make it illegal to film what's happening on farms and in slaughterhouses.

That's crazy to me.

Imagine having a law that says like, hey, you can't film anything that happens in school.

You'd be like, what's happening in school that I'm not supposed to see?

What the hell?

I'd pull my kids out of that school immediately.

I've heard about this.

I know sometimes footage gets leaked or whistleblowers come out with horrific stories.

And it's, I think I've seen a documentary with a little bit of leaked slaughterhouse footage and it's, there are no words.

I mean, it's just absolutely revolting.

yeah it's horrible i mean you don't really see instagram reels from the killing floor right because the usda actually recommends no windows in slaughterhouses for this reason oh my gosh and those ag gag laws are anti-whistleblower and apply to just our animal agriculture like it's literally a gag rule on what's happening on farms and in slaughterhouses Moby recently teamed up with PETA.

They made, it's actually a great short about all of this, but we can put a link, but I will warn you, it's very depressing.

So Moby loves, yeah, he loves putting all this stuff.

It's like, here's an even more depressing thing than I posted last time.

He's a big vegan activist.

He is.

Yeah.

I don't really want to see any of that, but it will be linked in the show notes.

I mean, and then in the 90s, this all came from the animal liberation front movement in the 90s, which scared the agricultural business.

So laws were passed banning journalists from farms and slaughterhouses.

What they wanted to do was bring the horrors of the meat and dairy industry to the public eye, and the government was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't do that.

We make a ton of money off of this animal suffering.

I mean, we could do a whole episode on ag gag, but those PETA videos of free-range chickens, what their reality is, they get censored online all the time because this truth is hard to swallow.

And when you see those cage-free and free-range and things, what that actually is definitionally is probably not as comfortable and happy as you think.

The ethics like this, they're a core reason for many vegans.

So what's the case for animal ethics?

Not that I disagree with this in principle, obviously, but I'm curious.

Well, like we talked about earlier, you wouldn't let a dog suffer to save a dollar.

So why do we tolerate this cow suffering?

You know, this is where the lecture part kind of starts and people bury their heads.

But factory farming is unethical, no matter what your package says.

Animals feel pain, they feel pleasure, they fear, joy, and ethical vegans believe that they deserve moral consideration.

Yeah, that's heavy.

And sometimes veganism is cultural or religious as well, right?

Of course.

Hinduism, some Buddhism, there's other groups that discourage or prohibit animal consumption.

And for many other vegans, it's also about the planet.

Veganism uses less land, less water, and produces fewer greenhouse gases.

That makes sense, but there's still some footprint, yeah.

I mean, of course, but livestock farming leaves a much bigger one.

It just has really good PR.

There was a few years ago, I don't know if you remember, it was this whole campaign about almond trees need so much water.

It was like we did a show about almonds and how bad they were for the environment here in California.

Yeah, I mean, I think that was just, I mean, my understanding is that was just a smear campaign from the dairy industry.

Big dairy was trying to kneecap almond milk because their sales were going down.

I see.

It takes way more water to farm cows than almond trees.

I mean, look, any tree needs a lot of water.

That's just the fact.

But more water is needed for farming animals.

Plus, you're skipping the toxic runoff.

Right.

Yeah.

Our argument wasn't, hey, they should put cows here.

Our argument was, hey, they should not be growing almonds in a desert.

This is a terrible, terrible idea.

Yeah.

It was like doing all this stuff to the aquifer.

This is one of those things where it's like dairy can be really bad for the environment and almonds probably shouldn't grow in the desert.

I don't know.

I'll have to revisit that episode.

Farming anything is in the desert with a ton of water.

Remember we did bananas.

That was really bad.

Yes, exactly.

So, okay, almond farming does produce less water pollution.

I did not know that, but that makes sense.

Yeah, I mean, big time, because animal waste contaminates groundwater and rivers.

So if you shift to just plants, you cut that drastically.

You still have to grow tons of soy for vegans, though, right?

Well, you do.

I mean, it's probably less than you think.

A shift toward veganism, it would actually reduce the demand for crops like soy, which are often grown on deforested lands.

That's another bonus.

But most soy is grown to feed livestock, not people.

Like raising livestock demands much more water.

And there's countless studies about this that show meat production consumes far more water than plant-based food production.

So cut out the animals, you cut out a lot of the soy fields.

I'm not saying there's no bad environmental outcomes, but it's just a lot less.

I had not thought about the fact that a lot of that soy was grown, not for people, but for animals.

That had not occurred to me.

People really defend their diets, man.

It seems impossible to live a completely animal-free life.

Yeah, I mean, look, vegans take medicines that have been tested on animals because, well, life's complicated and that's just how scientific research works to save lives sometimes.

Of course, I'm going to take that medicine if I need to, but shampoo that's tested on animals, that seems like an unnecessary evil to me.

I mean, I might buy a chapstick that contains an animal product over one that's petroleum-based because you know you start asking yourself, like, what's more important here?

Animal welfare or the environment?

It starts to become somewhat of a Sophie's choice when you get out of just thinking about your veggie burger.

Some people won't ever choose a veggie burger, right?

I mean, people love eating meat, or some people love eating meat.

It's just different people are wired for different diets, and that's okay.

You know, research can't perfectly isolate veganism's effects, but there is plenty of evidence that it's better in a lot of ways.

At the very least, you know, be mindful of what you're eating.

Maybe be vegan once a day, or you don't have to have meat every meal.

I just want the guy that's eating cheese-y, crusted, hot dog casserole who can't make it up a flight of steps without wheezing to stop lecturing vegans.

Give vegans a break, maybe skip some flesh every now and then.

Dang, shots fire.

Who's a militant vegan now?

Sorry, I'm not saying give up meat.

I'm not.

I'm just saying shop smart.

I always like to tell people stick to the perimeter of the grocery store that's where the fresh fruits vegetables and yes fresh fish and meats are and they are better than anything you're gonna buy down an aisle that's just the facts yeah i don't think i'm ready to give up the meats not yet but no matter what your diet i think we should all be thinking more about what we're putting in our bodies and the cost of the environment and to our little furry or not so little furry friends as well Thanks, Jessica.

You're welcome.

Thanks, everyone, for listening.

Topic suggestions for future episodes episodes of Skeptical Sunday to Jordan at jordanharbinger.com.

Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

I'm at JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

You can find Jessica on her sub stacks.

That's multiple substacks.

Between the lines and where shadows linger.

We'll link to that in the show notes as well.

This show is created in association with Podcast One.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Tata Sedlowskis, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are are our own.

I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Of course, we try to get these episodes as right as we can.

Not everything is gospel, even if it is fact-checked.

So consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well-being.

Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love.

If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

And we'll see you next time.

What happens when you speak out against Vladimir Putin and the KGB starts showing up in your life outside of Russia?

Konstantin Samoylov didn't just flee his homeland to avoid conscription.

He's now exposing the regime from abroad with a target on his back.

Imagine, for 70 years you're told that nothing good for people in the West.

It's darkness there.

None in Russia thought that we could invade Ukraine.

And then I was absolutely caught off guard that it's unbelievable.

The Russian state didn't care about what was being said about it on the outside.

All they cared was on the inside.

But now the focus has shifted.

on telling the truth about Russia, how things are.

And my YouTube channel started growing.

The numbers exploded because everyone wanted to be a part of a community a support group and i think that i'm becoming a bigger and bigger danger to them so they're trying to neutralize me one way or another and knowing that i am a narrator is one thing but when you see actually an agent in real life that's different ballgame i'm not stopping i keep on talking because i was silent for 15 years I was looking at my country going down to hell and I wasn't doing anything about it.

So there's no way they're going to shut me up.

Even if I put myself into more danger, I think that's more important right now to tell the truth of what's really happening in Russia.

If not me, then who?

To hear more about life under dictatorship, the myths of Russian strength, and what it really costs to tell the truth, check out episode 1021 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

You want your master's degree.

You know you can earn it, but life gets busy.

The packed schedule, the late nights, and then there's the unexpected.

American Public University was built for all of it.

With monthly starts and no set login times, APU's 40-plus flexible online master's programs are designed to move at the speed of life.

Start your master's journey today at apu.apus.edu.

You want it?

Come get it at APU.

Each trip brings its own kind of energy, and your coverage should match it.

Insure My Trip lets you compare travel insurance plans that fit your vacay vibes.

Whether you're chasing waterfalls or chasing Wi-Fi, no favorites, no fluff, just real reviews, expert help, and smart tech that makes it easy.

From adventure sports to missed connections, we've got your back.

And if things go sideways, our licensed agents are just a call away.

Before and after your trip, your trip, your coverage.

Visit insuremytrip.com and travel smarter.

Insuremytrip.com.