1220: Andrew Bustamante | A Spy's Guide to Our Dangerous World Part One

This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn.

Most social media is a time drain, but LinkedIn, that's the one platform where the time you spend actually pays you back, especially if you're hiring.

Think of it like this: while you're running your business, LinkedIn is quietly out there playing recruiter on your behalf.

You post a job, super easy.

You can even have LinkedIn help you write the description, and suddenly it's in front of exactly the right people.

Not just resumes in a stack, but actual qualified candidates with real data to help you pick the best.

And because LinkedIn is where people actually show up to work on social media, you're not fishing in the wrong pond.

These are folks who want to be seen, want opportunities, and are open to making a move.

That's why small businesses who use LinkedIn, say, 72% of the time, they're getting better quality candidates.

Plus, you can let your network in on the search, slap the hashtag hiring frame on your profile pic, and suddenly your whole professional circle knows that you're looking.

Double the qualified candidates, zero extra effort.

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/slash harbinger.

That's linkedin.com/slash harbinger to post your job for free.

Terms and conditions apply.

Welcome to the show.

I'm Jordan Harbinger.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

Our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker through long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, from spies to CEOs, athletes, authors, thinkers, and performers, even the occasional arms dealer, former jihadi, gold smuggler, money laundering expert, or Russian spy.

And if you're new to the show or you want to tell your friends about the show, I suggest our episode starter packs.

These are collections of our favorite episodes on topics like persuasion and negotiation, psychology and geopolitics, disinformation, China, North Korea, crime and cults, and more to help new listeners get a taste of everything we do here on the show.

Just visit jordanharbinger.com/slash start or search for us in your Spotify app to get started.

Today, once again, back on the show for another round is Andrew Bustamante of Everyday Spy.

Former CIA tradecraft, teacher of spy school, and the guy who can make number stations and one time pads sound downright cozy.

we're ripping into covert communications disinformation campaigns deep fakes and why millions of wealthy americans are whispering about leaving the country we'll talk ukraine iran surveillance states the mossad epstein's intelligence ties what spies actually look for in a story and the tradecraft that still works in a digital world here we go with andrew bustamonte

Man, every time I see you, you got more hair.

More hair.

It's almost like it grows out of your head.

It won't happen much longer, though.

Now you're going to get rid of it?

Yes.

Donating it to charity.

Oh, okay.

That's cool.

You went from silent operative to sideshow Bob.

Sideshow Bob.

That's exactly what it feels like.

Oh, good.

This is a weird way to start the show, but you're one of the only people who might know about this.

Have you heard of number stations?

Yes.

Yeah.

Can you explain it actually?

It's a British phenomenon, I'm pretty sure.

It's actually international.

This is fascinating.

And feel free to chime in where possible.

I just found this and I was like, I got to include this, even if it's not that relevant because it's freaking interesting.

So, on shortwave radio, there are these radio stations that are basically just like a disembodied voice that's 1, 14, 72, 45, and it just goes for forever.

And then it'll stop after, I don't know, half an hour, an hour, 90 minutes, whatever, and it goes like bing bong.

And then it'll just start again with the same sequence of numbers.

And it does that.

And then it changes like a week later or something.

And there's no call sign.

Nobody's ever claimed responsibility for them.

And people think that they're international because you can hear sometimes people have an accent.

Sometimes it's in Spanish.

Sometimes it's in Russian, British accent, whatever it is.

And on shortwave, for people who don't know, because we're in the digital age, I'm going to get this wrong probably, but the radio waves, they bounce off the ionosphere so they can go around the earth.

They don't just go straight like AM FM radio and they can go really far.

And I used to listen to these up at my cottage up north because we didn't have much radio.

It was like rural area.

So you had like a crappy, blurry FM1.

WWJ, which is like my dad's news radio 95 or 950, whatever.

And then you had shortwave.

And I got this shortwave at like a garage sale and it's creepy, right?

And you could listen to like international music, but then the other stations that have numbers on there.

So when I was older, I was like, I wonder if I can find what those were because back then you had no clue, but now we got the internet.

I'll Google it.

This is amazing.

So first of all, I thought maybe it was pirate radio, but then the government really tries to find pirate radio stations.

So how are they not finding closing down these number stations if it's pirate radio?

Okay, so it's not pirate radio, but no one knows who they are and there's no call sign.

Isn't that illegal?

So the the only person who could run that is the government or a foreign government.

And it turned out that's what they are.

So

big time nerds found out where they were coming from because they're super expensive to run.

A powerful radio station that goes around the world is not something you could run, at least in the 80s, 70s, 80s from like your backyard.

Not going to happen.

That was tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars to run something like that.

And they were also coming from Cuba, the Soviet Union, the U.S., UK, Australia, and places like Warsaw, stuff like that.

And it turns out that this is a cryptography pattern.

So this is where you come in, right?

This is a cryptography pattern called a one-time pad.

Do you know much about these?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So what you're getting at is really exciting, not just for nerds, but for operators too, because you're hitting on multiple really cool tradecraft elements that are genuine, not like the movies.

There's a movie called Number Station.

Oh, okay.

Never heard of it.

That's how popular the movie was, right?

But the point is, when you have actual encryption and cryptography, an element of one-time use, meaning the code is only valid once.

There's one-time pads that relate to books, pages and books, words on certain pages and books.

There's also one-time pads that relate to radio broadcasts.

And what it means is that when something happens, you'll have literally imagine a pad of paper.

And that pad of paper says something like January 1st, 11 o'clock.

On the 1st of January, at 11 o'clock, whatever number comes from the channel that you're listening to correlates to an instruction in a separate manual.

And then you rip that page out and you throw it away.

Yeah, or burn it for dramatic effect.

Then February 2nd, at 2 o'clock, there's going to be another number.

And if you get that number at that time, then you know it correlates to the instruction.

If you don't get that number at that time, you still tear out the page and you throw it away.

It's very similar in the nuclear missile silos.

They don't have a pad, but they do have a literal ream of paper with punches in it.

And you feed the punched paper into the actual machine, and anything that happens for 24 hours, it basically is dictated by the holes in that encryption.

I remember in the hunt for Red October, I think I remember Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington, maybe, or something like that.

I can see the face, but I don't remember the name.

Either way, they were going through the thing, and they cracked open these plastic containers that looked really cool in the 80s because you're like, oh, you can't just make that yourself.

Of course, you can now, but they cracked it open.

They looked at the thing, and that was like the code that they had to type in.

And so this one-time pad, it can't be cracked because it's only used once and then never again unless you have a copy of the pad but like i couldn't just get that sheet and then reverse engineer the code and read future messages it's only used for that one message and that's probably a really basic way of explaining it but i thought all right shortwave we don't use that anymore we have digital encryption and it turns out that's not true either They still use shortwave radio, which is amazing.

I thought this doesn't even exist anymore.

Who would use this in the age of the internet?

So there are a couple of things that we fired off that are not fully accurate.

First, shortwave radio and pirate radio aren't always the same thing.

Pirate radio is when like an FM station or even an AM station gets pirated and is used.

It's just an illegal broadcast.

Whereas shortwave radio is actually controlled by a whole different set of governing rules.

Pirate radio that the government tries to crack down on versus number station or even, I don't know, even dissenting shortwave radio.

The government's going to have a very hard time intercepting and finding the location of a shortwave dissenting radio station.

Yeah, what I meant by that was simply that if there's an illegal shortwave radio station, you can be discovered easily.

The government and the FCC and the United States goes and finds that and it's easy to find.

But also no one's going to have a million dollar broadcast antenna set up for a pirate station.

So that's why people were confused about these because wait, this is from Cuba and it's crystal clear in Spanish.

This is not some dude on a beach in Cuba screwing around.

This is a government installation.

Same ones from the United States.

And most shortwave radio was just like, it's like BBC or something.

And you can just hear the news from the UK and the US before the internet.

And still not.

So they still use this now.

And it doesn't really matter where it comes from, right?

Because you know the Russian one comes from the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

You actually don't know that.

That's what makes it so scary.

That's what makes it so powerful.

Russians can send propagandists to Canada and broadcast from Canada.

And now you can have a stronger signal carrying a Russian message from.

even an allied country because it's very hard to identify the source of that shortwave transmission.

Oh, really?

I heard that it was totally easy to find the source of a shortwave transmission.

It depends on the strength of the transmission, how many resources you're putting into it.

But essentially, the reason that this is so useful, even still to operators today, is because a communicator can carry a shortwave radio in a pack.

And then anywhere you are, if you have primary, secondary, and tertiary systems all fail, satellites fail or they get jammed.

primary VHF signals get jammed or fail, batteries fail or there's some kind of problem some other way, you can always pull out a shortwave radio and you can always bounce it off the moon, bounce it off the ionosphere, bounce it in a direction where somebody knows to pick it up.

And now all of a sudden you have a very resilient form of communication.

That's why it's so useful and so cheap.

And as soon as you pack up that radio and walk again, next signal's from a different place.

That's fascinating.

I didn't realize that the small ones could broadcast.

I just thought they were receivers.

Apparently what they're still used for, basically a shortwave receiver is like 10 bucks on Amazon.

If I'm your handler or something or you're trying to communicate secrets to me, we could use something like Signal or whatever, digital encrypted communication.

But then, even if no one can decrypt it, which of course the NSA is working on all that stuff, slash can do all of that, they still know that's me talking to you, or they'll figure it out.

And that's not good if you're like a Chinese dissident working in their nuclear program, talking with somebody in Washington, D.C., right?

It's like, we don't know what you're saying, but you're probably not ordering DoorDash.

So we're going to arrest you and take care of business.

But with the shortwave radios, since they go all over the world, even if you know that that signal is coming from Moscow, like the CIA figured it out, you have no idea who's listening to it.

Everyone in the world is a candidate to be listening to this.

It's impossible, essentially, to identify the recipient because even if you could figure out who was listening to that, which you can't, tens of thousands of people are listening to that because they're like screwing around with a shortwave radio.

That's only if they know how to find that signal.

So you're exactly right.

And this is why it's so viable even today.

Yes, we live in a very digital signal-saturated environment.

There's constant signals, radio signals, cellular signals, VHF signals, UHF signals, line of sight signals.

There's just an incredible amount of noise.

So communicating a message is nothing more than having a receiver on the same frequency as a transmitter communicating something that makes sense to the transmitter and the receiver.

Even better, if the actual information that's being transmitted isn't the content that's really being communicated.

That's the problem with our encrypted signals, our encrypted tools like Signal or Telegram or WhatsApp.

The actual message is what's being carried over.

So you can crack that encryption at the source of the signal or at the source of the recipient.

But if you can get either encryption key, you can hack the whole thing.

And that's assuming you don't hack some other back-end process.

The Israelis are always working on, NSA is always working on, GCHQ at the UK are always working on.

So when you have a literal transmission that's carrying nothing of significance, because the only person who knows what it means has the one-time pad.

So the Cuba station, Cuban intelligence, talking to people maybe in Miami or all over the U.S.

and Canada, it doesn't matter.

And you can't tell who's getting that message.

They have a one-time pad.

There's another guest from the show, Jack Barski, former East German spy.

He talked about using these number stations.

And that was what prompted me to look into this again because I was like, I remember those from being a kid.

And he would just go and sit in his home office, lock himself in every Thursday night or whatever it was.

It was so freaking tedious because he'd have to spend like four hours writing all the numbers, wait for it to go again, check all the numbers, use the one-time pad, and it would be like,

all is okay.

Your family's fine.

Moscow sends its regards, and he's like, Are you freaking hurting me?

You know, like,

whatever.

No, nothing to report.

It's just nothing to report, but it took four hours to communicate that and used a bunch of obfuscating language because you don't want to say the same number sequence over and over when it means nothing.

So it's like they had to bury the lead.

It's not that efficient.

But it kept him safe.

as an illegal Russian spy inside the United States.

That's how effective they are.

It is.

They still use this, which I thought was crazy, just because one encryption, it pinpoints the receiver and you never want to do that.

And I don't know.

I guess my question to you is, what kind of content gets transmitted on a number station right now?

Is it specific stuff for a specific person?

Yes.

But what kind of instructions get communicated to people in the field using something like this?

Because it's a one-time pad, it means that the person who creates the pad and the person who creates the sequence that gets read can choose how many messages it carries.

It could carry a message at one o'clock, a different message at two o'clock, and a different message at three o'clock for three different people in three different parts of the world with three different messages.

So Jack's receiving something on Thursday night at four.

There's six other days of the week.

There's 23 other hours of the day.

Everybody could theoretically have a different one-time pad.

It doesn't have to be 13 people with the same one-time pad.

I see.

That makes sense.

Because if one person gets caught, the messages from everybody else are still secure.

Exactly.

Now, when you think about the utility of something like this, it sounds silly to us as wealthy Americans where we have one of the world's leading intelligence services.

We're like, why wouldn't you do something more efficient?

Put yourself in the shoes of a Nigerian intelligence service or put yourself in the shoes of a Pakistani intelligence service or a Malaysian intelligence service.

Now, all of a sudden, you don't have the budget or enough viability to actually reach into the deep, expensive tech because what you're trying to collect on is something that...

even your own government doesn't see as a huge priority.

Dissidents and people who are speaking out against whatever.

Or you're trying to keep a secret from the United States and the West and you know that your satellites are owned, right?

So you also have the opportunity where countries are talking to each other.

Myanmar could be talking to Vietnam using a number station a pad between the two of them.

So now it's a whole different, not necessarily diplomatic channel, but an effective collaboration tool for something else.

You name them.

Yeah, that's interesting.

It would have to be a non-diplomatic channel, right?

Because otherwise you would just say, oh, yeah, we had a transportation meeting.

Then you just wouldn't talk about it.

Not open source exactly.

Weird show open, but I've been fascinated by those for a while while because I used to just listen to them.

I would just listen to some guy with a rough Cuban Spanish accent be like, Uno, Tresit, like, okay, like, what is he doing?

Or German or Russian?

Because look, man, 80s kids, that was the only foreign language exposure that I had at all for, I don't know, 15 years, except for like middle school French.

That's not very interesting.

It's an old lady who's telling you to sit up straight in your chair.

It's not cool like Russian and Cuban Spanish and German was during the Cold War because you know it would be like this is from east berlin this is pretty freaking cool man even though it could have been coming from madison wisconsin could have been coming from madison wisconsin yeah that's true that's true i got to look this up because i could swear that when i researched this it was just relatively trivial to find the source but it doesn't matter because if you know it's in the soviet union what are you going to do about it it's that you can't go to you can't find out where it's going like the source you can find but where it's going you can't the recipient you can't find and it also doesn't matter if you have 12 sources as long as they're all reading the same sequence at the same time in the the same frequency.

You mentioned last time you were on, which I think was 2023, maybe?

Yeah, it was two years ago.

You said, oh, I might leave America 2027.

We're right on schedule.

Are you thinking about doing that still?

Absolutely.

Not even thinking about it.

It's like, it's like that is the target.

Spring of 27 is the actual, it's on our calendar, in our Google documents.

That's when we are wheels up.

Where are you going to go?

Or is that a secret?

Yeah, we're not telling anybody where we're going.

We'll give you a list of our favorite places, but.

First of all, why 2027?

Just because of the kids' schooling schooling stuff or what?

We were looking at 2030 as like our drop dead.

But then as the world has changed from 2023 till today, we've also decided to kind of increase our timeline.

There's a lot of things that go into it.

We want our children to have a second language.

We want our children to try to get a citizenship in a foreign country, which means that we need to be cognizant of when they turn 18, which matters.

And then you've got different countries with different requirements for citizenship, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So there's a lot of things there, but the main driving force for my wife and for me related to our kids is to get them a second citizenship, citizenship, not residency.

So they have a second passport so they can choose for the rest of their life whether they want to show the blue passport or some other passport, right?

But then simultaneously to that, you also have very real security concerns in the United States.

There's very real economic concerns in the United States.

And diversity options are a benefit.

And that's not just for us.

We're actually finding that 53% of wealthy Americans, meaning Americans with a net worth of $5 million or or more, 53% of them have already left the United States in terms of investment or dual citizenship or golden visas.

I see.

Interesting.

So if I invest in something abroad that's considering leaving the United States.

If you invest to an extent where you can now essentially live there half the year or live there for longer.

So if you buy property, if you buy a business.

I might have to get that citation.

That sounds like a lot.

It is a lot.

It's expected to hit 60% in the next two years.

One out of every two wealthy Americans are already diversifying their interests outside of the United States, giving themselves essentially an escape strategy, a growth strategy, or something else.

Yeah, I guess technically we fall into that because our kids have some documents from Taiwan/slash China.

Even I'm like, the papers are in the system or whatever.

And I basically have to just start paying insurance.

And then it's like, as soon as I set foot there, the clock starts going.

And then you get a residence and then you convert that to a passport.

And then China invades and you end up Chinese.

LOL, right?

No, but not really, but it's possible.

Like my friends are always joking.

They're like, so you're just going to be a white Chinese guy.

And I'm like, it could happen.

Happened in Hong Kong.

Yeah, exactly.

Happened to Hong Kong.

And those people, I think they still have Hong Kong passports, but that's just an administrative, they could phase those out tomorrow and reissue China passports.

Where do people have it better?

Europe is good, man, but there's a lot of reasons that Europe is maybe not going to be super stable.

Have you seen the defense stocks in Europe are going up?

That's really not.

You're going to do the same thing in the United States.

Well, yeah.

It's important.

People like to throw around generalized terms like better.

I would argue there's no safer.

Where's a safer?

And again, safer can some ways be a generic term.

Sure.

So I don't want people to think of it in terms of safer or better or really anything that ends in an er.

It's really a question of for you individually, where do you see the most opportunity for what you're trying to achieve?

For us, if we want our children to have a second citizenship, we want our children to have fluency in a second language, we want our children to also understand how special the United States is because here's what's sad and depressing.

98% of Americans have no concept of how actually different and special the United States is.

Oh, of course not.

You can see the discourse online.

I'm going to move to North Korea.

My brother in Christ, go for it.

Please spend a week there and don't run swimming back to the United States.

People don't understand how special it is here.

And you can't explain it and you can't define it and you can't watch it in a movie and be like, oh, I really appreciate being American.

You have to live it.

You have to live it.

You have to see it.

And we want that for our children.

We want them to live, breathe, see, feel what it's like to be, even just abroad for an extended period of time, so they can come to truly appreciate why it is worth the fight to stay a free America.

Thinking about fleeing the country here in 2027?

At least stick around through this ad break first.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Drip Drop.

People who know me know I'm big on staying hydrated.

Sure, it means I'm running to the bathroom a bunch of times a day, but honestly, it's one of the simplest, healthiest things I can do for myself.

But here's the thing: water alone isn't enough.

When you sweat, when you're sick, even when life just gets busy, you lose electrolytes, and electrolytes are what actually helps your body absorb the fluids that you drink.

Without them, you end up sluggish, unfocused, maybe even cranky.

That's why I use Drip Drop.

Dripdrop is doctor-developed, science-backed, and proven for fast hydration.

It's got the perfect ratio of sodium, electrolytes, and glucose for rapid absorption, three times the electrolytes and half the sugar of the leading sports drink.

And you feel the difference.

Better focus, steady energy, no midday crash.

That's worth investing in because staying sharp and energized pays off in everything else you do.

No wonder it's trusted by firefighters, medical pros, and over 90% of top pro and college sports teams.

Plus, it actually tastes good.

I've been into the sugar-free watermelon and peach flavors, and with flexible subscriptions, I never run out.

Right now, Dripdrop is offering podcast listeners 20% off your first order.

Go to dripdrop.com and use promo code Jordan.

That's dripdrop.com, promo code Jordan for 20% off.

Stock up now before the heat hits hard.

This episode is sponsored by Momentous.

Most of us aren't training for some fitness competition.

We're just trying to get through long workdays, workouts, parenting, or travel without feeling wiped out.

That's where Momentous Creatine has been huge for me.

It's not just for building muscle, it's daily fuel for your brain and your body.

Creatine helps your cells produce energy more efficiently, which means sharper focus at work, better memory, more consistent energy so you don't hit that midday wall.

Momentous Creature Creatine is the one that I use.

It's sourced exclusively in Germany, delivering the purest creatine monohydrate, rigorously washed, never cut with fillers, and NSF certified for sport.

Every batch is independently tested for purity, safety, and label accuracy, which is why it's trusted by pro teams, even the U.S.

military.

For me, it's become part of my daily routine.

I've noticed steadier energy, less brain fog, faster recovery after workouts, and Momentous makes it effortless.

Their travel packs, now in a lemon flavor I really like, are naturally flavored, perfectly portioned, and easy to mix with water anywhere.

With thousands of five-star reviews and over 112,000 customers, people are seeing results.

With Momentous, the fundamentals are done right.

Right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35% off your first subscription order with promo code JHS.

Go to livemomentous.com and use promo code JHS for up to 35% off your first subscription order.

That's livemomentous.com, promo code JHS.

If you're wondering how I managed to book all these great authors, thinkers, and creators every week, it is because of my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust.

Something I've actually taught to spies before.

Now that I think about it, I'm teaching you how to build your network for free over at sixminutenetworking.com.

You're probably not recruiting foreign intelligence assets, but hey, what do I know?

The course really is about improving your relationship-building skills in very practical, down-to-earth, non-cringy ways.

I taught this here in the United States to three-letter agencies and to other agencies in other countries that I probably shouldn't even mention.

Anyway, six minutes a day is all it takes, and many of the guests on the show subscribe and contribute to the course.

Come join us, you'll be in smart company where you belong.

You can find the course again for free at sixminutenetworking.com.

Now, back to Andrew Bustamante.

I'm curious what your perspective is on the Middle East.

I wouldn't move there.

I don't want to live under an authoritarian regime of any kind.

And I don't know if you can find a place in the Middle East that's not really touched by that.

Don't tell them that.

Yeah, no, of course, of course not.

But also, I have a little girl.

I don't want to subject her to a lot of that stuff.

And I think that's going to offend people, but I don't know if I care.

Is it controversial that women don't have the same kind of treatment in the Middle East as they do in the United States?

You have an American girl.

Yeah.

She's fine.

If you are born a Muslim Arabic girl, that's a different story.

Oh, yeah.

Especially if you're born a poor Muslim Arabic girl.

That's completely different than a wealthy Arabic Muslim girl.

So you're saying that since I'm a foreigner, we're outsiders, we would be, there's the leeway when it comes to that kind of thing.

That's a super important distinction, man, because when people try to make the argument, like, oh, where are you going to find this better than the United States?

If you're an American, there are lots of options where you have more opportunities than you do in the United States.

An American living abroad in Spain has better opportunities than any Spaniard and better opportunities than any American in the United States.

Say more about that because I think a lot of people are not sure how that works.

So when you're an American abroad, depending on what community you land in, they may already have a preferential opinion of the United States.

And they're going to bend over backwards to help you, support you, become your friend.

You're going to find people more interested in helping and supporting your business, your family, your job hunt, et cetera, just because you are American.

Whereas here in the United States, you're just another American.

So why the f would anybody try to help you?

Where abroad, they want to help you because, of course, they want to be friends with an American.

They want access to the American dollar.

They want access to your network.

They might just think that you're super rich because to them, you are super rich, even though you make $35,000 a year.

Who knows, right?

So that opens up opportunities immediately just because of a passport that you're carrying.

People are going to help you find an apartment.

They're going to help you furnish it.

They're going to help you find everything everything you can think of.

That does not happen here in the United States.

Now, simultaneously, if you go to a anti-American country, you can expect the opposite.

You can expect immediate criticism, immediate bias.

You can expect people to bully you or push you around.

And that's your choice if that's what you want to do.

Or if you're an American traveling on a Canadian passport, you can hide that.

You know what, though?

I will say, I wanted to go to a place that was anti-American.

So I went to Serbia.

in 2004.

I was like, we just bombed this place.

Surely everyone hates Americans.

You know what?

There was a lot of that, but it was also like, pretty cool, man.

You're from the United States?

I've never been there.

I mean, we hate you guys, but you're cool.

I mean, it's fine.

Tell me more about where you grew up.

And people were like, you're the enemy, but also never met an American before.

The only American I met was a guy we took prisoner in Bosnia, and we didn't get to talk to him very much.

People actually told me that.

It's funny.

I mean, if you think about it, what would happen, honestly, put yourself anywhere in Missouri or Minnesota.

and a Cuban moves in.

There's going to be plenty of people who are like, ah, there's a Cuban down the the street.

But there's going to be even more people who are like, I've never met a Cuban.

That's right.

Let's invite him over for dinner.

Let's invite him over for dinner.

But like three other people moved into the neighborhood.

Why are you inviting the fucking Cuban guy?

Because he's a Cuban guy.

Exactly.

Right.

I want to learn their music.

I've always wondered about plantains.

Who knows why, but they're going to get extra attention just because they're different.

Man, when he, it was probably 1989, my neighbor had a Russian guy come and stay at his house.

And I was like, a Russian guy.

My parents were like, really?

Wow, what is he like?

And I was like, he has offensively strong body odor.

I mean, I was a little kid, so he seemed like a giant.

He had like a huge beard.

And I remember being like, this guy has not had a bath in a really, really long time.

He was super nice guy, super friendly guy.

And I remember him just being blown away.

We had a computer in the house and he was like, what is this machine?

Because he'd never seen one before.

Computers are relatively new then anyway.

And he had never seen one.

And then he was like, I can't believe that everybody has a car.

He's like, I don't even know anybody who has a car in the Soviet Union.

I don't know a single person that has one.

There's taxis.

That's it.

Those are the things I remember him telling us because his English was pretty limited.

But yeah, we were fascinated by this guy.

He broadened your understanding of life.

Yeah.

Even if it wasn't light years, he broadened you more than the average person who couldn't even conceptualize the idea of somebody not an adult not having a car.

Although I will say that stereotype that all the Russians were like big, strong bears, where you're like, that part's true.

I remember his hands were so huge, they like eclipse.

Again, I was a kid, but, you know, I've shaken an adult hand.

This guy was like really strong.

And he would pick us up and throw us around because that was another thing that he wasn't afraid to wrestle around and throw us around the house.

It was fun.

And he was less gentle, I think, than a lot of other people.

And you could tell he like loved kids and was just a fun dude, but he couldn't speak.

So he had to do a lot more of that.

Anyway, you're right.

The whole like, oh, this person's an enemy, it doesn't really hold up at the cultural level.

It's more of like a policy level kind of thing.

So when we talk about that more opportunity thing, because that's how we got on that, right?

More opportunities if you're an American living abroad in a pro-American state.

But then when you you start thinking about your children when you start thinking about your own kind of long-term maybe health or well-being my wife's not secret dream is that our children will meet and fall in love with non-american children or non-american fiancés or spouses or whatever right and then immediately be children of the world because they'll get married and they'll have the new citizenship that they are marrying into, the citizenship that we help them receive, plus their American citizenship, their children will have the choice of all three.

And not only does that give you options in just community, but it's every one of them has a different educational system.

Every one of them has a different welfare system.

Every one of them has a different health care system.

Every one of them has different access to other countries.

The United States cannot go to Iran.

If you carry a Turkish passport, you can walk right into Iran.

And that's not to say that you want to go to Iran, but you might want to research it before you do, but you can't.

But there's options.

No, it's true.

I've done the math on this before.

And it's like, okay, if my kids have a Taiwan passport or a Chinese passport and a U.S.

passport, and then they marry somebody who has a French passport and a Spanish passport or a Moroccan passport, then my grandkids will be Moroccan, Spanish, Taiwanese, Americans.

Now, what makes you even go down that path?

Do you see what I mean?

It's just interesting.

Also, healthcare system.

Like, my insurance policy is if I get debilitating cancer and Kaiser Permanente is like, oh, see that line 48 of page 306?

Sorry.

I'm just like, well, I'm going to Taipei because I've been paying $30 a month for health insurance for 20 years.

I'm going to have them cure my cancer.

And it's a better healthcare system in the United States anyway.

And right there demonstrates to me that wealthy way of thinking.

You can put $30 a month into something that you don't even see.

And then the idea of relocating your whole house, not to another state, but to another country on the other side of the world that is clearly in the crosshairs of a nearby neighbor, even when you do all that, you're still like, yeah, we can do that.

We'll drop $15,000 or $7,000 or however much to fly everybody and relocate there in a heartbeat.

The average household can't even conceptualize it.

They can try.

They can ask and borrow money from friends.

They can take a loan.

They can sell their car and have $10,000 in cash tomorrow, but they don't even think of it.

That is literally a mindset of the wealthy because the wealthy are always trying to protect the assets they have.

I think also partly, I've always been this way, right?

I was an exchange student in high school.

That got me thinking internationally from an early age.

Then I studied abroad because I was like, hey, you don't have to take accounting 101 in calculus.

You can get other credits.

You screw around in like this place.

And then they caught on to that.

And they're like, no, we're going to make people take those classes there.

And I'm like, what if I go to a place that doesn't have an official University of Michigan study abroad program?

They're like, we have it in 32 countries.

And I'm like, what about Ukraine?

And they're like, no.

Can I go there?

Yeah, but we have to approve it.

Okay, fine.

I'm taking Russian and Ukraine, which I did.

And they were like, fine.

I feel like half of my life's achievements were reluctantly handed me.

Like, here you go, you son of a bitch.

I'm watching you.

You technically, what's it called?

Malicious compliance.

We're like, I'm going to follow this to the T to your own detriment.

And even though that's not what you intended, you know, make your own concentration, study abroad in a place that they didn't approve, but they said their hands are tied.

They have to.

Anyway, you're right.

A lot of people don't conceptualize this, but I think this show, I try to help people do that because you don't have to be a millionaire to get a second passport.

You just have to go, my grandpa was Irish.

And then you've got to mail in some forms and 300 bucks and suddenly you're Irish too, or whatever.

You can apply to become a teacher in South Korea.

And then once you go to South Korea as a teacher, and then once you're there, you can flip your visa and you can be like, I'd like to work towards residency now.

And you can still teach.

So now you're getting paid to live somewhere else to work towards a second passport.

You're learning a second language on your own, right?

So there's all sorts of opportunities all over the world.

If, like you said, someone can open your eyes to them.

Just pay attention to those things.

Switching gears a little bit, I'm wondering what kind of guidelines slash training that you can talk about, that the CIA gives you after you leave.

I know you probably can't associate with certain people.

It seems like you can't even probably go to certain places and talk about certain things even inside your own house.

Because I think it's like, okay, we know Andrew worked in the Middle East and his wife also, we're going to monitor them.

You can't just be like, remember that time we did that thing in Dubai?

It's like, you can't do that.

You still have to almost pretend like you're still in the game.

Yeah, it's a great question.

There's no training that they give you after you leave.

When you leave CIA, CIA is a little bit like the mafia.

I was going to say, so the mafia are occult.

Yeah.

So they make it very hard for you to leave.

They put as many disincentives as possible.

into the process of leaving.

They don't help you find a job.

They don't clear your background.

They don't help you with your resume.

They don't give you any kind of transition assistance, which is what you get in the military.

They want you to go out.

They want you to fail and they want you to come crawling back.

I know when my wife and I left, we were two of five people in our peer group, meaning the group that started with us in 2007.

By 2014, when we left, we knew of three other people who had left in the same year that we left.

Two of the five came back within six months.

Within six months?

Because they just couldn't get a job.

Because they couldn't make it work.

One of them was a finance guy who was like, ah this i'm done with this because i can go make a bunch of money in finance turns out that once he got out there the finance guy went out there got a job right away and the job was like a finance job yeah it was 15 hours a day 13 hours a day no weekends off no freedom like he made a shit ton of money but he had actual responsibility so then he was like i want to come back to cia where i leave my work in the office and i really only have to work like government hours yeah i get to see my kids again yeah so my wife and i we did not go back we struggled for a long time because that's how we ended up forming our own business was because we couldn't find a way to get a job another way.

The resume gap, what were you doing for 14 years?

You would at least be able to say, I was in the CIA and then nothing else.

You can't.

You can't even say that?

So depending on your cover, you have different gaps in resume.

There are a lot of what's known as an overt CIA officers.

Overt CIA officers aren't undercover.

So there is no technical resume gap.

They are employed by CIA in a certain year, and then when they write their resume, they claim it.

Oh, so they say like, I was a Russia analyst for the the Central Intelligence Agency for the last eight years.

Correct.

Their tax records pay them.

They have a history with the IRS.

Their mortgage says that they're CIA employees.

They're not covert.

So overt people have no break in resume, which is part of the reason why CIA saw such a huge exodus with the first Trump administration, because they lost analysts and cartographers and creatives and alias docs people and logisticians, tech people, because they were overt and they could immediately make the jump to Google or OpenAI or whatever else.

But covert officers, when they sign up, they sign a secrecy agreement.

They sign two different secrecy agreements that are specifically related to the release of information related to their operational activity.

Your cover is part of your operational activity.

So when you are a covert CIA intelligence officer, which is about 10% of the whole body of CIA, now CIA controls everything.

So they can tell you what can and can't be put on your resume.

They can literally line out certain words that you use in your resume.

And when the time comes that you leave, they essentially provide your exit resume with your cover identity still in the resume because they need to go through a cover rollback period where they review your operational background before they can clear it.

So it says like fry cook

for seven years in Dubai.

And you can, and no shit, dude.

You can laugh all you want, but that's terrible.

Literally, there's a, you're a middle manager for a tire company and here are your references and here's all your accomplishments and it's all fake so that when anybody calls your references, there's no answer.

When they email the company, there's no response.

And so nobody can verify or validate what you did for those three, seven, twelve, fifteen years.

Do you want to explain this?

And you're like, I can't.

And then they're like, all right, weirdo, who is probably in prison.

Thanks for coming in.

Who's lying about their resume?

Exactly right.

And that's something that CIA puts out there because when you leave, they don't put you in a terminated status.

They put you in a leave without pay status so that it's that much easier to process you when you come crawling back in.

Turns out I I can't get a job.

Oh, really?

Oh, that's so sad.

Luckily.

You literally happen to have your desk already set up.

We still have that cat thing that does the arm wave on your desk.

It's still, it's still cranking.

You might have to reset the clock.

That's crazy to me, man.

It's brilliant.

It's brilliant, right?

They make it so hard.

They put so much money into training you, they don't want to lose you.

And they also understand that when you're inside CIA, you don't know how the real world works.

And that's something that's important too.

The real world is a very difficult place to be.

And when you are part of an elite unit, like a clandestine CIA officer, your life is dangerous at times, but otherwise it's pretty fucking good.

You're paid a government salary.

You never take work home.

You can't really work on the weekends.

They can't call you in on the weekends unless it's going to look really suspicious.

So you end up looking like a normal person.

And that's if you're not in some sort of privileged cover position, like a COO or a CFO or an investor or an innovator, where you're driving nice cars, staying in excellent hotel, flying first class everywhere.

If you're in a really privileged position, life is super amazing for you.

That's what I wonder because I'm like, okay, he's got a law degree.

Let's make him a corporate lawyer.

Let's put him in like an oil and gas-related industry in the United Arab Emirates.

Okay, so my cover is: I'm a multi-millionaire attorney with a bunch of cars, a driver, a chef, an assistant, a full office backup, and I fly on a company.

This is like, I'm not going anywhere.

No, I want to be a real corporate lawyer where my boss gives me shit every day and calls me in at 11 p.m.

on a Sunday to wait for a fax.

Nobody's ever going to do that.

And that's that's a big part of why CIA wants us to have just enough space to hang ourselves.

You want to leave?

You can leave.

Go see what the real world is like.

Go see how hard it is to find a job.

This is like Amish people.

You know how they have Roomspringer where they're like, no, no, no, you want to leave the community and go experience the world for four years?

Go ahead.

And then guys are like, I'm going to meet so many girls.

And then it's like,

mom, I'm coming home.

You know, like, they have a couple of beers.

Where's my assigned wife?

Yeah, they're like, this is pretty hard.

There's a lot of bad shit going on out here.

Even driving is tough.

Most of them come back home, obviously.

What's in the president's president's daily brief?

You have any idea?

So the president's daily brief, it's interesting.

There's such a cool process behind the PDB, what we call the PDB, the President's Daily Brief, where you've got specific people who come in early to coalesce the intel, the raw intel from the night before, and then they prioritize it for specific briefers because the PDB is actually briefed to the president.

It is a document, but the document comes with a handful of dedicated PDB presenters.

This sounds like the coolest thing.

Like, I would love to show up and be like, tell me what's going on with that weird coup in Nepal.

And someone's like, well, I've spent the last 10 years analyzing Nepal, and this is my area.

And I'm going to explain it to you like you're five years old from the beginning to the end.

I want to do that all day.

Because that would be way cooler.

That would be way cooler.

In fact, what it is, is it's some middle management analyst who's trying to get the next checkbox on their promotion becomes the dedicated briefer.

They don't actually have a deep expertise.

They probably have a deep expertise in one thing.

Kissing the president's ass.

But the

expertise is not what dictates what they brief on.

Okay.

Here's like your northern hemisphere briefer.

Here's your eastern hemisphere briefer, et cetera, et cetera.

Here's your imminent threat briefer.

And these briefers all show up every day to brief the president, but the president only has a limited amount of time.

So you might show up at work at 2 o'clock in the morning to start prepping for a 7 a.m.

delivery to the president, only to then not actually get your time.

But you still log off at 2 o'clock.

That'd be a bummer.

But I guess you still show up and stand there in case he has any questions.

You still make the commute from Langley to the White House every day.

Like you, you go through all the motions.

As long as they give you bagels, it's fine.

Government pay, but White House bagels, though.

White House bagels.

I don't know.

West Wing bagels.

Yeah.

That's a shop right there.

Somebody needs to come up with that West Wing bagels.

I would go there.

It probably exists already.

We're going to have to Google that.

I should have asked this earlier.

How come you can talk about being a former clandestine operative in the CIA, but other people who come straight out can't do that?

There's obviously some kind of...

So we were talking just a few minutes ago about how you have to have your cover rolled back.

When your cover is rolled back, you are made an overt employee because they basically clear what you can and can't talk about from your operational history and then also give you the bureaucratic check mark that takes you out of the covert category and into the overt category.

Now, in 2014, when my wife and I left, it was very rare that people would leave.

They were seeing an increase in people leaving.

But like I said, in the entire year from our peer group, we only knew of three other people.

Total attrition in CIA in the year that we left in 2014 was less than one and a half percent.

So they were losing like one undercover officer a month on average for a year.

And the classes of these are not huge, right?

They were big during the war on terror.

I mean, you're talking about two to 300 person classes that are being cleared.

Multiple people.

If you're losing 12 guys a year, that's a lot.

It's about under 10% of your clandestine corps, but that attrition is agency-wide, all overt and all retirees.

I mean, it's not many people that are leaving.

The first year of Donald Trump, when Donald Trump became the executive and CIA falls under the executive branch, then they saw a massive attrition to the point where I think at its peak, it was 30 officers per month that were leaving.

So in 2014, when my wife and I left, we put in our resignation.

We got our leave without pay status.

They told us it'd be six months of leave without pay if we changed our mind.

And then they would start the cover rollback process.

And it would take an estimated two years.

It took exactly two years.

So in 2016, early spring of 2016, we got our official rollback letter.

It took them two years to review us.

Everybody who left after that became part of a wait list.

I know people right now who left in 2017 who are still waiting on a cover rollback.

And that's what's created this incredible network of, we call ourselves alumni, this incredible alumni network of CIA, former CIA all around the world.

where we know what each other can do and we also know the difficulties of being able to document it.

So people are always trying to help each other.

There's entire LinkedIn networks dedicated to CIA alumni who are trying to help each other.

I assume many of these people have had the idea to start a company where you just hire former agents.

Because if everyone's desperate for a job and they're highly qualified, but they can't talk about it except with other people who have clearance.

then you could clean up if you were hiring arguably.

Yeah, you know, it's funny because this idea has actually started a few times.

People have tried to do this, but what ends up happening is everybody's a f ⁇ ing government employee and they have no concept of how business works.

So, you might start a business and you might understand how business works.

And you're like, oh, this is going to be great.

I'll get all these qualified former CIA people and then we'll all create a consultancy and we'll go in together.

They don't know how salaries are determined and they don't have any concept of profitability and they don't have any concept of operating costs versus fixed cost and long-term growth and what a growth rate is and investor payback.

The employees just don't know that.

So you might start a company and you're like, this is going to be great.

And then your first handful of CIA officers come in.

For the first two months, they're happy to have a job.

But then after that, they're like, why the fuck are you paying me $100,000 a year, but you take home $300,000 a year?

I want to raise.

And they're like, no, no, you don't understand.

I'm the business owner.

I take the risk.

And they're like, no, you're CIA.

I'm CIA.

I don't see the difference.

And this is not just a CIA phenomenon.

This is former Navy SEALs.

This is former Mars Oak Raiders.

This is former NSA.

When they come out, they just don't have any concept of meritocracy, real meritocracy.

They don't have have any concept of profitability.

So they can't speak business.

That is unfortunate.

Because otherwise they would clean up.

Yeah.

All you have to do is we do a good job for a while and you start to earn a lot more money instead of just looking for the next best thing.

All right.

We're talking about Cold War vibes, number stations, and deep fakes.

But first, a word from a company that definitely, probably,

maybe won't sell your IP address to a hostile actor.

Stay tuned.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Grammarly.

Here's some real talk.

Whether people admit it or not, they judge you by how you write.

You send an email with sloppy grammar or typos, and boom, people subconsciously lower your level, even if it was a mistake.

They're not going to say it to your face, but they're thinking, oh, not that sharp, maybe not as buttoned up as I thought.

I thought that guy was a little bit smarter.

All that stuff, it adds up, especially with bosses, clients, anyone you're trying to impress.

That's why I use Grammarly.

It's not about just catching typos.

It makes sure your writing actually represents you the way that you want.

Smart, confident, professional.

All those things that I'm not, but want to appear as in an email.

It takes you from rough draft to polished final version all in one place, whether it's emails, proposals, presentations.

Grammarly gives you real-time feedback that makes your writing land better.

I've had Grammarly save me on a tone when I didn't want to come across as too stiff or too casual.

It's helped me brainstorm when I was stuck.

And most of all, it is a time saver.

90% of professionals say Grammarly saves them time.

93% say it helps them get more done.

Don't let avoidable mistakes drag you down.

Download Grammarly for free today and make sure the way you write matches the way you want to be seen.

Sign up for free and experience how Grammarly can elevate your professional writing from start to finish.

Visit Grammarly.com slash podcast.

That's Grammarly.com/slash podcast.

This episode is sponsored in part by Airbnb.

We just booked our very first cruise with the kids and we could not be more excited.

Seriously, can spring break get here any faster?

The kids are already bouncing off the walls and honestly, I will too once I see those water slides and all the onboard activities.

It's basically a floating adventure playground and it feels like the perfect mix of relaxation for us and exploration for for them.

But here's the thing.

While we're out at sea, our home back on land, just sitting empty, and that's what it hit me.

Why let it sit unused when I could actually have it work for us by hosting it on Airbnb?

With their co-host network, you can even hire a local pro to help take care of everything from guest messages to check-ins so you're not trying to juggle it all from the middle of the ocean.

And here's the best part.

We get to enjoy the cruise, create these family memories, and know that our place was earning a little extra while we were away.

So if you've got a spot that just sits empty while you're away, why not let it work for you?

Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host.

This episode is also sponsored in part by AG1.

I've had my morning routine down with AG1 for a while now, but lately I've been paying more attention to how I end the day too, because a good morning really starts with the night before.

That's where AGZ comes in.

It's a nightly drink designed to be part of your wine-down ritual.

It's melatonin-free, made with herbs, adaptogens, and minerals.

I like the subtle herbal flavor.

It's not overly sweet, no artificial flavors or added sugar.

AGZ includes magnesium L-3onate, which is a clinically tested form of magnesium along with saffron and other ingredients.

Each serving has 250 milligrams of magnesium, providing over half your daily value.

I personally like that it gives me an easy way to get more magnesium into my diet.

It's been a nice addition to my nightly routine.

For me, AG1 in the morning helps me set the tone for the day.

AGZ in the evening helps me close it out.

It's simple, it feels good, and I've enjoyed making it part of my rhythm.

If you're ready to turn down the stress and focus on the rest, head to drinkag1.com slash Jordan to get a free frother with your first purchase of AGZ.

That's drinkag1.com slash Jordan.

If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do.

That is, take a moment and support the amazing sponsors who make this show possible.

All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/slash deals.

If you can't remember the name of a code, you can't find the code, please email us.

The team would love to help you out with this.

We are happy to surface codes for you.

Jordan at jordanharbinger.com will reach somebody here.

It is that important that you support those who support the show.

Now, for the rest of part one with Andrew Bustamante.

I know you and a few folks like Ryan Macbeth, I don't know if you know him, you've said World War III has already started.

You still think that?

Yeah, I don't think World War III looks like World War II, but I do believe that whatever we are referring to when we talk about a world war, it seems to me like we have more indicators that we are in a world war rather than we are not in a world war.

What are you looking at indication-wise?

I look at the number of active conflicts around the world.

Right now, in the United States, we're very focused on two or three conflicts.

We're focused on Israel.

We're focused on Ukraine and Afghanistan and Russia.

And then sometimes we're focused on something else.

Like China, drug cartels, whatever.

Yeah, maybe it's Mexico.

Maybe it's China encroaching on us, whatever.

But that's what we think conflict is.

There's actually 161 active conflicts around the world right now.

161 different conflict zones where bullets are being fired and explosions are going off.

The oldest conflict zone is actually Colombia.

Out of all those 161, and nobody even thinks about conflict in Colombia.

When you look at each of those conflicts, it's not just one group against another group in the same country or even across a state boundary.

It's multiple countries engaged in supporting one side or another side of the conflict.

Proxies.

Yeah.

And that proxy conflict is unique.

Proxy conflict didn't really exist prior to maybe 20, 25 years ago.

Everything before that was basically either interstate or intrastate.

Well, what about Vietnam and stuff like that?

I mean, that was a proxy conflict.

That was a proxy conflict that originated as an intra-state conflict that was inside North and South Vietnam initiating on their own and then everybody else coming to the table.

Whereas many of the conflicts that we see now are instigated by external factors.

I see what you mean.

There's an economic benefit.

That's what first world countries have learned.

There's a massive economic benefit to war where you are supporting it, but not engaged in it.

Yeah, definitely.

This is Russia's game initially.

It's the United States' game, too.

A lot of people thought World War III was going to look like another World War II, but it kind of looks like a Cold War instead, at least as far as like proxy conflict.

We always try to find a way to frame something coming up with something we understand from the past.

Of course, that's what history's for, yeah.

Yeah, but it's very difficult to do that.

Like modern weapons, the battle lines in Ukraine look more like World War I than they look like World War II.

With the trenches, you mean, yeah, except for the drones.

And the drones are different, but now the drones look more like balloons, right?

Remember, the balloons transformed the World War I landscape.

Dropping bombs from gliders transformed World War I.

And then that's what gave us the idea for actual bomber jets and bomber planes in World War II.

And now we've got drones dropping grenades, drones acting as kamikazes.

It's a whole different evolving landscape.

And that's what we need to understand.

When people think World War III,

the common misconception is that a nuclear weapon must be used.

If you're waiting for a nuclear weapon to go off, that's not going to be World War III.

If a nuclear weapon goes off, we just entered a whole new

nuclear conflict.

And I don't think our chances of a nuclear weapon going off are getting less each year.

I actually think they're getting to be more each year, but I don't don't know why people think it's going to look like a thermo nuclear weapon being launched from a missile silo and going off in the middle of a first world country.

That's not what it's going to look like.

It's going to look like a tactical nuke or international waters.

You could imagine seeing a dirty bomb or a tactical weapon being used.

Who knows?

And the attribution of that weapon being unclear.

Is that even possible to deploy a tactical nuke and not get caught doing it?

I didn't say they wouldn't get caught.

The attribution of the weapon.

Oh, you'd see who launched it, but maybe not who provided it.

Correct.

So just basic thought experiment.

A nuclear weapon that's put into a grenade launcher, like a shoulder-mounted grenade launcher, makes its way from Russia to Belarus.

And then from Belarus, it's actually used in Kiev.

Who's responsible for that?

The Russians or the Belarusians?

Or the cutout that the Belarusians handed it to that actually used it inside the country of Ukraine?

Sure.

No, those are just little green men.

They're not ours.

I heard you say in other interviews that you think or maybe thought Putin was winning in Ukraine or in terms of Ukraine.

Do you still hold the same opinion?

Absolutely.

If anybody thinks Putin's not winning in Ukraine, I would love to understand your logic there.

I thought Ukraine would be done for the most part by fall 2022 and that the East, the South, et cetera, would be taken by then.

Only reason that didn't happen was because of the counteroffensive that was supported and mounted by the West in August of 2022.

And nobody really saw that coming.

And there was a big feint, like predominant intelligence at the time, both overt and covert, said Russia wants to go south.

Russia wants to connect a land bridge that goes all the way to Odessa so they can basically close off the Black Sea and they own everything Ukrainian.

That's strategically sound.

That's what many analysts said.

And then the counteroffensive feigned an attack in the south, but actually was a counteroffensive in the north, which made sense for them because it ensured that they could harden their nation's capital and they could push back very thinly stretched Russians.

But that whole southern corridor never really got closed off.

The lines of conflict in the south have barely moved.

When we had this conversation in 2023, 20% of Ukraine was controlled by Russia.

Now, 17 to 18% is still controlled by Russia.

And Russia keeps on pushing, gaining fractions a day, fractions a week, whatever you want to call it.

And the U.S.

is no longer supporting Ukraine significantly.

Europe is struggling to support Ukraine.

Ukraine's...

built their own drone business.

They're trying to essentially pay for their own war moving forward.

Like it's a completely different world but the one consistent factor has been russia's ongoing self-funded self-initiated efforts now yes they've joined forces with iran and china to gain some benefits but it's not like china or iran has been pulled into this conflict and they're not cutting a check really for the the arms or anything like that What do you think of the drones hitting Poland from Belarus and Russia?

Because Belarus News says, we warned the Poles, this is an electronic warfare thing.

The navigation failed.

And I'm like, they're just testing NATO's defenses and response.

What do you think the truth is?

I think it's somewhere in between.

We've also seen where Ukrainian anti-rocket efforts have deflected Russian rockets into Poland.

We've seen that happen too.

War has collateral damage.

War has things that don't happen in nice boxes.

So it doesn't surprise me that we're seeing drones crashing in a NATO country.

It also doesn't surprise me that Poland, of all countries, would exercise, I think it was Article 4 of the NATO agreement where all countries have to come together and have a joint conversation about what they're going to do.

Should we make sure that's Article 4?

I think it's Article 4.

I think Article 5 is the joint defense article where they have to come to defend each other.

Yeah, okay.

But they initiated one article and the other article, the more severe article, is still on standby.

But it's not surprising to me that it happened.

I think what's surprising to me is that it hasn't happened more.

I also agree.

I thought that was surprising because my friends in Poland, I have a bunch of friends in Poland, and they're like, everybody's worried.

I just canceled my vacation because you don't want to be outside the country if we have to to emergency get back or you know we're stuck or something like that.

I don't know about the logic there.

I feel like if you were going to Sri Lanka, now's a good time to maybe stay there for a while, but whatever.

Poland is also the most culturally opposed to Russia of almost anybody else in NATO.

Like they're the most paranoid.

They're the most secure.

They're the most aggressive rhetoric.

So it's kind of a hard temperature gauge.

I would not screw with Poland.

If you think Ukraine's shown remarkable resilience and toughness, Poland is going to, I mean, they have a lot more weapons.

They're way better armed and they're, like you said, more scared and they have their crap together way more.

They're way less corrupt.

They're way less corrupt than Ukraine.

And they have, what, three plus years of notice of seeing what happens when Russia says, don't worry, it's just a military exercise.

And they've been next to Belarus forever.

And that's always been like kind of a, well,

funny how we're just now

we just touch on Ukraine's corruption now.

Like the rhetoric in 2023, 2022 was that Ukraine wasn't corrupt.

As somebody who've lived in Ukraine, I'm like, excuse me, I got robbed at the airport by customs.

I never never believe that crap.

I'm just saying, you are internationally traveled enough to have known the truth, but the average American person believed we were fighting in Ukraine because Ukraine was a democracy.

We were fighting for Ukraine because Ukraine was a democracy and we were defending democracy.

And nobody would touch the corruption there until two years later when Zelensky himself, just to re-win favor from Europe, had to root out corruption.

He was like, hey, guys, we've been corrupt for a long time.

We lost a bunch of money.

So we're going to get rid of all these generals and ministry leaders.

Yeah.

Look, I'm not, no shade on the Ukrainian people.

They're brave, resilient.

I loved Ukraine.

I just got robbed by the cops.

One of the things they did multiple times, one of the main things that all of my Ukrainian friends told me was, if the police talk to you, just ignore them.

Pretend you don't speak Russian.

And I was like, that doesn't sound from an American perspective.

That sounds like a really bad idea.

What do I do?

They're like, walk or run away.

And I'm like, come on, that's so un-American.

Yeah.

And then they were like, whatever you do, don't get in the car.

And then other like older Americans who were there who were like importing tractors, they were like, just don't get in a police car.

I'm like, okay, why do people keep saying that?

And they're like, because they're going to extort you.

They can lock you in there and you have to dig out your wallet and pay to get out.

So another American guy, he's like, any advice?

I was like, hey, you're new here.

I'll tell you what everybody told me.

If a cop talks to you, don't talk to him and don't get in the car.

And he's, oh, okay.

And then a week later, he's, dude.

I didn't follow your advice.

A cop talked to me and I got in the car and then he locked me in there until I emptied my wallet.

And I was like, oh, so it does happen.

All right.

And I remember cops talking to me too.

And I was just like, sorry, no Russian, no Russian.

And just like, duck into a hotel.

Here's a pro tip: if you're in an authoritarian country, duck into a nice, fancy hotel or business, duck into any business owned by a really rich person that's nice because rich people are above the police.

And the police are not going to go into the equivalent of the four seasons in Odessa, Ukraine, and start screwing around with the people who are staying there because those people are the clients of the oligarch that owns the property chain, not somebody that you want to mess with if you're a cop who is trying to get the lunch money.

So that was always my trick.

It was like, if someone's messing with me, I'm like, let me just go to my hotel and grab it real quick.

And I'm just, I'm not coming out.

I'm sitting there talking to the concierge.

I remember talking to the concierge at a five-star hotel in Odessa or maybe whatever.

It was a city in Ukraine, wherever I was.

And I said, the cops are outside.

And he goes, oh, you can just stay here.

You want some coffee?

I was like, yeah, sure.

And the cop eventually sort of like wandered in to look.

And the concierge, I didn't understand what he said, but it was basically the equivalent of, get out of here right now, or I'm going to call my boss, who's going to call his boss, who's going to call your boss's boss, and you're going to be outside with an empty pot collecting change after this.

Because that cop was basically like this, and then just sort of like, oh, you know, like one of the hands in the air, shuffle away kind of things.

And I remember seeing that cop because he would always screw around in the cyber cafe.

He didn't have internet at home.

And I remember being like, he was just like, oh, I'm not going to screw with that guy because he's staying at the whatever.

And I just remember being like, wow, that's a solid pro tip.

It works.

Yeah, it's a pro tip.

Duck into any hotel, duck into any restaurant, anything else.

Unless if state security is chasing you, that's different.

They have cause.

But if it's a traffic cop that wants a bribe and you're in, I don't know, Bosnia, go back to a five-star hotel or any business that's internet, you know, a nice one, and they are just not going to screw with you generally.

No guarantees.

Don't at me if this gets you beat up.

It's better than getting beat up.

You probably won't get beat up if you're inside the hotel or inside the business.

Very unlikely.

Right, exactly.

So what do we think is going to happen in Ukraine?

I mean, they're kind of a pawn at a table, according to pretty much everybody.

They've always been a pawn at a table.

I believe that what Trump understands about Ukraine is that in business terms, we are a sunk cost into Ukraine.

And we've sunk this cost in order to advance our weapons knowledge and our weapons capabilities.

And as a result of the conflict in Ukraine, we realized the importance of drones and we were able to start developing and creating new military-style drones in the U.S.

And we were only five or seven years behind China, who has been doing it for a longer period of time.

So we got those benefits from Ukraine.

And to a certain extent, the money that we paid was to help us get that experience without having to get it at the receiving end of bullets and bombs.

But the other side is we want to be able to rebuild Ukraine when the war ends.

We want to be able to send out loans and lease agreements.

We want to be able to have American businesses that win the rebuilding contracts for Western Ukraine when all this is over.

Likewise, Putin knows that he's going to boost his economy by rebuilding Eastern Ukraine.

That's part of how the game works, but we need the conflict to end before then it looks to me a little bit like germany i'm not saying the ukrainians are nazi germany in world war ii but i just mean it's going to potentially be divided up and that's what we were saying putin is a master manipulator putin is an excellent misinformation and disinformation propagandist but to a certain extent what he has done is he has made limited claims from the very beginning that now

four years later, we look back on and we're like, Putin always said that he didn't really want to take all of Ukraine.

And he he always said he didn't want to threaten its sovereignty.

All he said is that he didn't want them to become part of NATO.

So now, because he's been so consistent for so long, now we have that as our own justification for Putin has been saying the same thing for four years.

So we might as well trust him now.

That's not how he works,

but that's how he knows logic works.

Russia needs agriculture resources that are located in Ukraine.

The West basically just needs contracts, like you said, and Ukraine is a buffer from Russia for the rest of Europe.

That's just what Europe needs.

That's not even what we need.

Yeah, that's true.

If anything, I think the United States, and I think Donald Trump knows this too, if the United States does pull out of NATO, and if they don't have a buffer against Russia, they're going to have that much more of an impetus to continue increasing the defense spending.

And guess who's the world's number one weapons exporter?

Yeah, it's going to be the U.S.

It's the United States.

Yeah, depending on if we blow it, because right now they are afraid to buy weapons from us because we can turn off the spigot.

So they're re-engaging their own domestic defense industry.

That's the missteps that the United States, and this is the problem with our current political climate swinging so far left and so far right.

It's unpredictable.

It's totally unpredictable, not just to us,

to all of our allies.

And our allies are not just our allies because they're democracies.

They're our allies because they buy our weapons.

They buy our tech.

They run their money through our financial systems.

They trade in U.S.

dollars.

That's what makes them allies.

When China watches us freeze billions of dollars in Russian assets, China's like, shit, we're taking our money out of the U.S.

dollar.

And that's exactly what you saw in 2023 and 2024.

They took all of their resources out, which really helped exacerbate our own inflation.

They didn't do it to create inflation.

They did it because they saw that if their money's tied up in New York, it's going to get frozen.

But if it's tied up in Dubai, it won't.

They still own a ton of American bonds.

I'll have to look this up.

$750 billion to $800 billion in U.S.

Treasury securities.

Ask what the percentage of U.S.

bonds owned by foreign or owned by China kind of thing.

Because I did this research not too long ago, and I was surprised by how little the number was in terms of percentage.

2.1% of the U.S.

national debt is owned by China.

Sounds like a little, and it is a little, but it's also a lot.

A ton of money.

Yeah.

An outrageous sum.

Billions.

Yes.

Oh, yeah.

At least.

If you're looking for another episode of the Jordan Harbinger Show to check out, here's a trailer of our interview with Jack Barski, former KGB spy, who posed as an American in a truer-than-life version of a Hollywood movie.

This is one of our most popular episodes of the show.

Jack not only dodged the FBI for decades, but also defected from the Soviet Union, secretly becoming a real American.

We'll learn how spies were recruited and trained during the Cold War and what skills Jack used to assimilate seamlessly into American culture.

I was untouchable.

I was above the law.

I was always bypassing customs and passport controls.

So a young person, it really feels good because...

I never liked rules.

How did you flip to eventually becoming full American?

I know they tried to call you home.

Can you take us through that?

They called me back as an emergency departure.

They have done this in the past, to call back an agent, and as soon as they step on Soviet soil, they are jailed or even executed.

I was stalling the Soviets, and then one day they send one of their resident agents, and he said to me, you've got to come home or else you're dead.

It was a threat.

I decided I would defy them and tell them that I'm not returning.

I will not betray any secrets, and please give the money on my account to my German family.

Wow.

And tell us how you got caught because the story is just not complete until you, like you said, had to face your past.

I was stopped on the other side of a toll gate.

It was a state trooper.

Just like to check your license and registration.

And could you step out of the car?

I stepped out of the car still not having a clue what was going on.

Out of the corner of my eye, somebody approaching me from the back.

The fellow introduced himself.

He says, Joe Riley, FBI, and he showed me this badge.

We would like to talk with you.

The first question I asked, am I under arrest?

And the answer was no.

Then I said,

what took you so long?

For more from Jack Barski, including how Jack was finally caught by the FBI and what happened after that, check out episode 285 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

That's it for part one, part two, out in a few days.

If it's not already, all things, Andrew Bustamante, will be in the show notes at jordanharbinger.com.

Advertisers, deals, and discount codes, ways to support this podcast, podcast, all at jordanharbinger.com/slash deals.

Please consider supporting those who support the show.

Also, our newsletter, Wee BitWiser, very practical, very specific, rubber meets the road.

It's almost every Wednesday, and it's an under two-minute read, nothing heavy-duty.

If you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out.

It really is a great companion to the show.

JordanHarbinger.com slash news is where you can find it.

Don't forget about Six Minute Networking as well over at sixminutenetworking.com.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn.

Love to see you there.

This show, it's created in association with Podcast One.

My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Tatus Sedlaskis, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

Remember, we rise by lifting others.

The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting.

The greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about.

If you know somebody who's interested in espionage, tradecraft, the Mossad, Epstein, Iran, or Ukraine, definitely share this episode with them.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

And we'll see you next time.

This episode is sponsored in part by What Was That Like podcast.

What does it feel like to watch your house burn down, be attacked by an alligator, or learn that your spouse hired someone to kill you?

If you're dying to know, then What Was That Like is the podcast for you.

What Was That Like is filled with real stories about the most surreal experiences of people's lives.

On the show, host Scott Johnson dives deep with his guests into the unbelievable situations they found themselves in.

animal attacks, plane crashes, winning the prices right, and more.

This show brings you tons of completely surreal, completely true stories, all told through the lens of the person who experienced it.

Check out some of these wild and gripping stories to gain some insight on what it was like to lose a leg to a shark attack and what it was like to be a professional bridesmaid.

Totally fascinating episodes.

So, if you want to hear some disturbing and inspiring first-hand stories, you need to check out what was that like.

Every story is thoroughly researched and fact-checked, so you know even the most bizarre tales are someone's reality.

Listen to what was that like on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.