1224: Do Kin's Red Flags Mean He's Filling Body Bags? | Feedback Friday

This episode is sponsored in part by LinkedIn.

Most social media is a time drain, but LinkedIn, that's the one platform where the time you spend actually pays you back, especially if you're hiring.

Think of it like this: while you're running your business, LinkedIn is quietly out there playing recruiter on your behalf.

You post a job, super easy.

You can even have LinkedIn help you write the description, and suddenly it's in front of exactly the right people.

Not just resumes in a stack, but actual qualified candidates with real data to help you pick the best.

And because LinkedIn is where people actually show up to work on social media, you're not fishing in the wrong pond.

These are folks who want to be seen, want opportunities, and are open to making a move.

That's why small businesses who use LinkedIn say 72% of the time, they're getting better quality candidates.

Plus, you can let your network in on the search, slap the hashtag hiring frame on your profile pic, and suddenly your whole professional circle knows that you're looking.

Double the qualified candidates, zero extra effort.

Post your job for free at linkedin.com/slash harbinger.

That's linkedin.com/slash harbinger to post your job for free.

Terms and conditions apply.

We're spending more than ever.

I hate my job.

The price of everything has gone up.

AI is threatening my job.

It's crisis after crisis.

Nothing is working out.

I can't find your one disaster.

Take control of change.

I need change.

Disruption is the force of change.

Stop the chaos.

Stop the madness.

Take control.

Read James Patterson's Disrupt Everything and win.

Welcome to Feedback Friday.

I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger.

As always, I'm here with Feedback Friday producer, the guy keeping things tight as long as he ends the stairs on the right, Gabriel Mazrahi.

We're openly mocking my mild OCD now.

Yeah, mild.

You brought it up, man.

Live by the neurosis, die by the neurosis.

Am I right?

The guy who's never peeving if the TV volume's even.

How about that?

That's actually quite nice.

Yeah, but something about the stairs seems more as good as it gets to me.

You know, like I picture picture you getting a little worked up that the stairs didn't comply with your preference for even numbers, which is now a good moment to remind you that this is Feedback Friday, episode 397.

You bastard.

I have to go take a shower now.

Do you think you can get through the opening while I go do that?

Wash your armpits an even number of times with the same soap.

With the right hand.

On the Jordan Harbinger Show, we decode the stories, secrets, and skills of the world's most fascinating people and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life and those around you.

And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical thinker.

During the week, we have long-form conversations with a variety of amazing folks, investigative journalists, undercover agents, gold smugglers, money laundering experts.

This week, we had William H.

Macy v.

William H.

Macy, legendary actor.

You know him from the movie Fargo, the show Shameless, the movie Boogie Nights.

We talked about his unusual career, how he thinks about being a performer, and his new movie, Soul on Fire, for which I attended the premiere.

No big deal.

Well, it wasn't a big deal.

Nobody was there to see me.

We also had my old friend, who is now also a legend, Oz Perlman.

So bit of a longer episode.

Both definitely worth a listen if you haven't done so yet.

On Fridays, though, we share stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious soundbites, and mercilessly roast Gabe for his mild to moderate undiagnosed disorders and his increasingly zany travel stories.

So you're in Finland today, huh?

Just living in a.

Yeah, man.

I'm in the middle of the sticks, dude, in this tiny town whose name I'm not even going to try to pronounce.

A lot lot of dots over the letters on that

place.

Once the dots and the accent marks enter the chat,

all bets are off.

I know that the nearest town that has real roads in a supermarket is called Yotza.

Yotza.

All right.

It looks bucolic is the word I never get to use that comes to mind.

I'm looking at the faded wood wall of what appears to be an old cabin, and through the window is a field.

And in this field, I see a literal lone horse grazing on the grass.

It looks like a painting you would see at your dentist's office.

Yes, that's exactly what it looks like.

And then you're like, where did you get that?

And she's just like, it was here when I bought the printing.

I bought it at a flea market.

They gave it to me for free.

Yeah.

It is so peaceful here.

It's actually a little bit scary.

Whatever the opposite of the do's cruise is, that is this place.

This looks like the cabin in New Hampshire where Walter White runs away to at the end of Breaking Bad.

It really does.

This would be, you know what, this would be a really great place to write a manifesto before you blow up a building.

Wow.

That's the vibe I'm getting.

But yeah, I'm definitely getting Kaczynski vibes.

Ted Kaczynski, by the way, like me, went to grad school at the University of Michigan.

Okay.

Go Blue, I guess.

Yeah,

more like Go Blue Up a Government Building, am I right?

All right, that was questionable.

That was terrible.

Don't get any ideas, Gabe.

I need you on Fadeback Friday.

What ideas do you think I would be getting from this?

Well, the only manifestos I want you writing are sign-offs, really.

You know, my sign-offs are about as long as his manifesto.

They're getting there.

They're getting there.

Yeah, the Industrial Revolution is the worst thing to happen to mankind.

And can I find...

Okay, I'm done.

I feel like I've stepped back in time.

Here, it is wild.

When I got here, my friend whose place it is, he was showing me around the property.

Like, yeah, so here's the house.

There's the basement where we pickle things and keep them cool because we haven't had a refrigerator until this weekend.

And there's the chicken coop and there's the road that'll take you to the lake.

And there's the outhouse.

And I was like, I'm sorry.

What?

Did you say outhouse?

Oh my, you've got to be kidding me.

No, it makes sense, though.

When they moved in, the house had a bathroom, like a modern, normal bathroom.

The previous owner did an extension on the house and added it, but he did it on the cheap.

And I guess that section of the house was full of mold.

So they had to tear it out and they turned that bathroom into a porch.

And then they just didn't rebuild the bathroom.

So they stuck with the outhouse because, and I quote, we like it in the old style.

Yeah, that's going to be a no for me, dog.

Here's the thing with an outhouse.

It's all fine and dandy other than the disgusting smell in the summer.

But in the winter, if you've got a pee at three o'clock in the morning or worse, you are trudging out through the snow and doing that in an outhouse.

So that was my first question.

I was like, I don't understand.

What do you do in the winter?

And he was like, no, it's nice.

You go out in the cold.

You do your thing.

It's refreshing.

It's invigorating.

I was like, bro.

I don't need refreshing or invigorating at three o'clock in the morning on a Tuesday.

I didn't even know people still had outhouses outside of like rural Russia.

Voluntarily, anyway.

It's not far from there, is it?

I don't know.

The Finns, man, they are built different.

Yeah.

I know I'm going to get some flack for this, but the Finns are basically Swedish Russians.

Oh.

You said it, not me.

I'm not going to be responsible for alienating one-third of Scandinavia on this episode, what I can only assume are wonderful show fans.

It's true, especially because they're basically the night's watch against the wildlings on the other side of the wall right now.

And more angry emails.

Yes, now it's time for people slightly further east to get their angry email fingers ready.

So

you could basically throw a dart somewhere southeast of the Arctic Circle and I've pissed off that entire region.

I do know that Finland is getting real sweaty about NATO these days and I think I understand why now.

Anyway, there's also a sauna on the property.

So that kind of balances out the outhouse.

The Finns love their saunas.

It's a sport that they love them.

Have you seen it?

It's actually a sport where guys go in and they're like, this man can do a 350 degree sauna for 15 minutes.

And it's like, what?

How does he survive that?

For some of them, it's a sport, and for some of them, it's like a religion.

And they do it every day, twice a day, three times a day, especially in the winter.

I think it's like, for some people, it's like church.

It's like non-denominational, heat-based, naked church.

Yep, that's what I hear.

So what are you doing out there?

Why would you go out there?

That is a good question.

I'm trying to figure that out myself.

I'm not quite sure how this happens.

This is sort of peak hippie Grandpa Gabe.

You're wearing wool socks with reindeer embroidered on them or something, and you've got your glasses on.

I'm just, I'm confused, really, actually.

The short answer is that I'm here for a little nature getaway slash impromptu retreat with this group of friends.

I didn't even know you had friends in Finland.

Frankly.

No, I didn't.

Had you known about the outhouse, you wouldn't have gone, right?

I would have asked to see pictures of the property

to see like

how pretty is it?

And they might have won me over, actually.

But yeah, no, I didn't.

I didn't have friends here until yesterday or so.

But basically, my friend Ada, who's from Spain, invited me and she was like, hey, super random invite, but do you want to meet me in Helsinki on Thursday and come with me and and some friends to the woods for a few days?

Helsinki is only two hours away from Berlin, and my apartment in Berlin ended on Wednesday.

So I needed to figure out where to go next anyway.

And I was like, do I leave Europe?

Do I go somewhere?

And it just, this invitation came along at the perfect moment, which seems to be happening all the time, more and more.

And I adore my friend Ada, and we've met up in different cities over the last couple of years, and we always have a blast.

I was like, yeah, this sounds just weird enough.

And I like spending time with you guys.

Let's do it.

Sure.

So ridiculous.

Yeah, meet me in Helsinki on Thursday.

Man, I do miss traveling like that.

I remember my friends would be like, let's go to Italy this weekend.

And I was thinking like, you can't plan a trip like that.

And they're like, yeah, we can.

You just get in the car and drive to Italy.

And I was like, oh, yeah, right.

It's kind of like me saying, let's go to Vegas next week and buying a flight on Southwest for 49 bucks.

It's basically the same thing, except for the gas is cheaper here.

So wow, the freedom, man.

Barely remember what that's like.

It's pretty great.

She's friends with these lovely people who own this cabin on this piece of land in the woods.

And I'm just meeting everybody here for the first time.

They are so sweet.

I have to say, I'm not just saying this because you maybe alienated all of our Finnish listeners a moment ago.

Finnish people are so lovely.

Very solid, very steady, and so nice.

Just very kind.

I'm a big fan so far.

Scandinavians generally are awesome.

You don't know nice until you ask a Nordic person for directions.

Just famously cool.

So how many people are there?

25, maybe?

25 Finnish people, one Spaniard, and a podcaster from LA.

Typical.

I think they're confused.

I'm getting the question, sorry, who are you and why are you here a lot?

Definitely one of the weirder excursions I've gone on.

And so what do you do out there besides sharpen your hunting knives?

Besides sharpen my number two pencil for the manifesto I'm going to make after we go on.

It's a lot of going for walks.

I'm doing yoga every day.

You cook, you read, you hang out, record your advice podcast from the room where they dry their laundry on the rack by the window.

Finland shit.

Finland ship.

I'm sure everyone loves that you're infecting the whole back to nature vibe with your tales of like incest and tax evasion.

And you're like, by the way, I need strong Wi-Fi and a USB interface for my laptop.

The walls are pretty thin, so I will have to explain some things at dinner later.

Well, first, you're going to have to explain what a podcast is, but yeah.

You understand that these people have cell phones.

Yeah, they don't even have plumbing where you are right now, so talk to me.

They don't have plumbing, but I think they know what a radio show is.

I'm not going to lie, though.

I'm pretty uncomfortable.

Little Gabe on the prairie is requiring some adjustment.

All right.

It doesn't seem ideal, man.

The outhouse alone.

I'm looking at your bed.

It's more like a.

You have a child's bed.

It's smaller than Jaden's bed.

That's what I'm saying.

You have a child's bed.

Not ideal, but here's the thing.

At night, we hang out in this huge hut structure that the owners built on the property.

Like a yurt?

It's like a massive yurt TP shape kind of structure.

And they built this huge fire in the middle, like a campfire, and everybody gets under blankets and people take turns like singing songs, playing guitar.

And these people, dude, are incredible musicians.

Like so good.

And it's raining on and off, and the sound of the rain on the roof is coming through, and the wind outside, and the guitars and the drums.

It is just chef's kiss, dude.

And it is exactly what I needed after five weeks of ambulance sirens in Berlin and trying to find a parking spot in Europe.

Okay, yeah.

That was a bit stressful.

It does sound pretty awesome.

So that's why you're there.

Now I get it.

Yeah, man.

It's truly one of the coolest things that I've gotten to do on this trip.

And not a place I ever would have thought to check out on my own.

So, you know, sometimes you just need an invitation.

It's cool.

I love when that happens, man.

You just get a phone call and before you know it, you're in a totally different universe.

Kind of jelly of those experiences.

I mean, that's what the foreign exchange thing is like when I was in high school, right?

It was like, you can't do that stuff that easily anymore.

It's like, you want to go to Italy, you want to go to Milan.

Okay, book a hotel.

Try to meet some people at a bar.

They're locals.

They don't really necessarily want to make friends with a tourist a lot of the time.

Maybe you get lucky because you're extra-friendly and you go to the right place with college students or something.

But when I was in high school, it was like, you're going to Milan and you're going to a public high school for two weeks.

You're just going to go to class.

And people are like, What are you doing here?

Oh, I'm a foreign exchange student.

I'm here for two weeks.

And the girls were like, That's so cool.

I didn't know you did that.

Yeah, when I was an exchange student in Germany, one of my volunteer manager gals, who was like another German student who had done an exchange to Italy, she was like, I want an excuse to go visit my boyfriend in Milan for a couple weeks.

I'm going to run a mini exchange to Italy.

Do you think that would be cool?

And I was like, let me get this straight.

So we just take two weeks off German school and we go to school in Milan, Italy for two weeks.

And she's like, yeah.

You're an exchange student within the exchange?

Yeah, exchange student inception.

Exchange seption.

I go to Milan, Italy.

I live with this family with a girl named Stefania Pagliari.

And they're super cool and chill.

And like, she was just a super fun host sister.

She was probably like in ninth grade.

Now I was like in 11th grade or something like that.

And I'm going to high school in Milan.

And I remember, I think I've told this on the show before where like.

You'd finish a test and the kids would just light up cigarettes in class.

And I remember the first time I saw it, I was like, what the actual hell is going on right now?

Tell me you're in Europe without telling me you're in Europe.

Oh, exactly.

So I'll keep this short because, again, I think I've told this on the show, but someone lights up a cigarette and I didn't know the kids, right?

So I was like, this guy is like the class a-hole and the teacher's going to rip him a new one and like kick him out because he's done with the test first.

So I assume he just like didn't bother to take it.

And the teacher comes up and walks up and says something to him in Italian, which I don't speak.

And the teacher walks up to the kid really, really close and leans in right in his face.

And I'm like, this is going to be a good show.

And what happens then, I'll never forget it because the teacher grabs a cigarette from the kid, puts it in his mouth, and the kid lights a cigarette for the teacher.

That's why he leaned into his face.

And he was like, congrats to me, or whatever, right?

And goes back to his desk, just puffing and ashing in an ashtray that's been on his desk.

And then as the kids finish the test, they're like all lighting up cigarettes.

And one of them turns around and offers me one.

And I'm like, I don't even smoke, but I have to smoke a cigarette in class one time in my life.

So I like, you know, take my obligatory puff and cough up a lung because I don't smoke.

And I remember going to the restroom, you just had to go and you didn't have to raise your hand to get permission or anything.

They laughed when I did that the first time.

So I would just go to the bathroom and you couldn't use any of the urinals.

I must have told this story before.

You couldn't use any of the urinals in the men's room because there was this huge room full of urinals and there was stalls in like another separate part.

And in the room with all the urinals, All of the guys and all of the girls who didn't feel like going back to class or going to whatever class they had assigned for them that day would just be in there talking and smoking.

And teachers would walk in to go to the bathroom in the middle of their class and be like, oh, hola, or whatever, everybody.

And like, bonjorno.

And like, all the guys and girls who are just skipping class smoking and in the men's room would just be like, hey, Mr.

Mizrahi, how are you?

And he would like go into a stall and take a piss.

And I remember trying to take a piss in one of the urinals and I was like, make sure the girls don't look.

And they're like, dude, nobody uses these.

Go in the stall.

And I just, I couldn't believe it because it was like, one, guys and girls being in the men's room, no big deal.

Smoking, no big deal now i've heard from show fans that that is absolutely not something that happens in italian schools anymore like you can't smoke you can't have women going to the men's room to skip class and smoke this was just like milan in the 90s and that's when that was that was over by like the 2000s.

This is like your very own personal madman.

Yeah.

It's just a different era where the rules were different.

Oh, to be an exchange student within an exchange student program in the 90s.

Italy is unbelievable.

It's awesome.

Like it's cool as a tourist, as an adult.

It's so freaking cool as a teenager because I just remember, I remember going to clubs and I ran into like all these really cute girls from my high school and they were like, come dance with us.

And I was like, who are you guys here with?

I don't see any of the guys.

And they were like, oh, some guys we're with are around here.

And I remember when I left, I saw them with the guys.

They were legitimately 45 to 50 year old men.

And these were high school chicks who were probably 16, 17 years old.

And I was like, these are the guys you're with?

And they were like, kind of embarrassed.

They were like, yeah.

And I was like, I don't want any details on how this arrangement works.

None.

Yeah.

Dot, dot, dot, burley sconey.

Yeah.

Dot dot dotseekingarrangement.com before that thing was a thing, I think.

Dude, it's all like OG American stuff.

When we had kids, I swear I'll stop rambling at some point here.

When we had kids, the hospital had like a baby class where you learn how to do diaper stuff and like when to call the emergency and what's not a problem, but seems like a problem and all this stuff.

And they were like, is anybody from the Midwest here?

And I was like, yeah, me.

And they're like, what did your parents and grandparents do to kids when they cried?

And I was like, put whiskey on their gums.

And she was like, bingo.

And I was like, what?

That was the answer you wanted?

And everyone was like horrified.

Even all these older people were like, oh, my God.

All the nurses and doctors that were in the room were like, what?

And she's like, yeah, yeah.

That used to be the thing that you did.

Like, if your baby had colic, you just put whiskey on their gums.

And they would absorb the alcohol.

And then the baby leaned in and was like, whispered something and someone handed it a cigarette.

Yeah, that's, that's when it's an Italian baby.

It's like, get the Marlboros over here.

But yeah, it's just all these old things like still exist in Europe where it's like, oh, my son has a sore throat.

Give him a little bit of that schnapps.

All right.

Anyway, we got some fun ones.

We got some doozies.

I can't wait to dive in.

Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

A few years ago, I learned some disturbing facts about one of my relatives, which, combined with my personal experiences with him, make me believe that he is a legitimate psychopath.

When he was a kid, I know he injured and probably killed some of his pets, as well as a relative's bird.

Ooh, serial killers and dead pets.

Name a more iconic duel.

Am I right?

That's really disgusting.

When I learned about that, I started to think back to my earliest days with him, and it all started to click.

He always enjoyed making people suffer.

He enjoyed destroying people's things.

At family get-togethers, he displayed disturbing emotions.

He was out of it and kept a blank face while everyone else was having fun.

Dexter vibes for sure.

That's so weird.

I was just thinking the same thing.

Minus Michael Seahall's charming voiceover that makes the whole show palatable, of course.

So he goes on.

He also threatened to stab his mother with a knife to her face.

What?

This is terrifying.

I always think I would get rid of a kid like this, but then when it's your kid, you know you're not just going to do that, right?

Also, a huge subplot in Dexter.

Mm-hmm.

He's barely worked a job in his life without quitting soon after and consistently relies on and manipulates his mother for finances, which reminds me of a recent Jeffrey Dahmer documentary.

Did you know that about Jeffrey Dahmer, Jordan?

No.

I had never, that he meant, I guess maybe he got money out of his family.

I did not know this.

No, I didn't know that.

I don't know what weird stuff he's done as an adult, if anything.

I can imagine being interviewed in the near future about him having killed a bunch of people and my response being, it makes sense.

I always had a feeling, but what could I have done?

Dude, such an intense thought.

And then millions of people around the world are screaming at their TV, like, then why didn't you say something, sir?

Yeah, exactly.

Then you're getting dragged and doxed by true crime nerds on Reddit or whatever for the rest of your life.

Yeah, because you didn't drop a dime on him after he put his cousin's parakeet in the dishwasher or whatever.

Yeah, that's sad.

No, it's super distressing.

No one wants to be that guy.

But he's an adult.

I'm confident his mother will refuse any advice I have.

She's refused to hear anything negative about him.

That is so frustrating.

I mean, to your point a moment ago, Jordan, it's got to be brutal for a parent to acknowledge something like this about their child, but I mean,

you have to pay attention to these signs, right?

You have to.

It's very painful, I'd imagine, but it's reckless not to.

Because what if this guy snaps and does something terrible?

Then what?

I'm pretty frustrated with this woman, but who knows?

Maybe she's terrified of him.

I don't know.

I've periodically been looking into unsolved murders in the area he lives in, but haven't seen anything yet that makes me think he started killing.

What can I do here?

Signed, Avoiding a Gruesome Finale When My Relative Seems a Bit Stabby.

This is a heavy one, man.

So, first of all, very sorry that you're in this position being related to somebody who's disturbed.

Is that fair to say?

We can't diagnose your relative, but he checks a a lot of boxes for, I want to say, psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder, probably, but I'm armchairing based on your letter, and I feel bad for his mom too, the whole family, really.

It's got to be so creepy and weird and stressful.

I know you feel a responsibility to look into this guy and speak up, but it's also hard to know what to speak up about if he's just like vaguely, generically creepy.

It's a tough place to be.

Also, you can't fix this guy.

My understanding is that psychopathy is hard, if not actually impossible, to cure.

And his mom is over there avoiding all of this slash enabling him.

If you wanted to intervene, you'd probably have to talk to her.

And that's going to require a lot of time and energy on your part.

Plus, you're like a distant relative, right?

So I'm not even sure it's your place to force her to see how she's being manipulated by him or protecting him.

If you genuinely believe that he poses a danger, the best thing you can do is really keep your distance.

Limit your contact with him.

Don't engage with him.

Maybe document what you know, incidents, dates, threats.

Create a record in case law law enforcement ever does get involved.

Throw something in Google Docs.

But yeah, stay away.

And if you have reason to believe that he's actively harming people or animals right now or he's threatening anyone, that actually is something you can report and you should.

You don't need proof.

You just need a reasonable suspicion.

You can also try asking the police to do a wellness check on your relative.

Tell them you're worried about him.

He's exhibiting some weird behaviors.

You should be able to do this anonymously.

Obviously, you should do this anonymously.

Maybe the cops go over there, knock on the door, hopefully talk to him a little bit, talk to his mom, make sure everything's okay.

Now, is that going to lead to him being diagnosed and treated?

Probably not.

But if they find anything suspicious while they're there, they might be able to intervene.

And if your relative gets on the police's radar and something happens down the line, then at least there's a trail.

Things like that, they can't really stop something awful from happening, but they can be the difference between him slipping under the radar and somebody taking him seriously and stopping him before he does something truly terrible, if that ever comes to pass.

Now, about this fear you have of being interviewed on the local news one day after he kills somebody and having to say something like, eh, it makes sense.

I always had a feeling.

I know we were having a bit of a laugh before, and yes, people should obviously speak up when they see disturbing stuff, which is why a wellness check is probably a good place to start.

And maybe filing a report with the police telling them what you're seeing and why you're concerned.

But also, you can't single-handedly stop a potential psychopath from becoming violent.

You know, you can't know everything he gets up to, all of his secrets, unless you have concrete evidence linking him to some crime.

I'm not sure you're going to get very far with the police.

I mean, yeah, you could continue being an amateur sleuth, but are you really going to spend all your free time combing through cold cases and tracking his movements?

I mean, that's a big task.

That's a project.

And it's also going to keep you mentally tied to this guy, which I imagine means a lot of fear and anxiety without any guarantee of accountability or justice.

So I'm just not sure what you're supposed to do here.

Although, I will say, if you ever did figure out that your nephew or cousin or whatever is a murderer and you stopped him from hurting someone or brought him to justice, that would be amazing.

That would be incredible.

It would be a great movie, which Gabe should write.

So definitely let us know if this all happens.

But you don't need to turn your life into a movie.

I've told this story on the show before, I think, as well.

But my mom had a really crappy brother.

And he was a heroin addict and all this.

nonsense.

So he would rob the family.

He would open up fraudulent credit card accounts.

I believe he was burgling slash stealing stuff from other places too, because he'd be like, yeah, I got this this new guitar and this new whatever.

And it's like, where did you get that when you live in grandma's side room and do heroin all day and night?

So my mom finally was like, I can't take it anymore.

He's robbing my mother blind and he's committing fraud.

So she went to the credit card companies and they were like, we're just going to eat this because it's VCRs from Sears.

And she worked with the police for years.

And finally, a detective was like, yeah, I don't want people like this in my community.

So they basically decided that he was going down.

And she just collected evidence and fed it to these detectives and they eventually just busted him.

But it basically turned her whole life into a giant ball of stress for years because my grandma was enabling the guy, surprise, surprise.

So if his mother's working against you and you're working with the cops, this is at least going to be really, really hard.

And my mom's brother was not a psychopathic murderer.

He was just a junkie and an a-hole.

So you're in more danger doing this if this guy's truly dangerous than my mom was was just ratting her brother out to the cops.

But also he was definitely committing crimes and they had evidence of it.

In this case, we don't know what this guy's up to.

Right, exactly.

All you can do is flag it with the police, protect yourself, and hopefully create some accountability.

And after that, the responsibility is his and to some degree, his mother's and law enforcement's, which also means making peace with the limit of your responsibility and how much power you truly have.

Sorry for all the stress and the creepy vibes.

It's a tough family member to have, man.

Wishing you and your family all the best.

And now, prepare to get stabbed in the face with the amazing deals on the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by CovePure.

We spend so much time thinking about what we eat, but the thing that we actually consume the most of every single day, water.

And water quality matters.

If your water is carrying things like PFAs, fertilizer runoff, trace pharmaceuticals, that is not just gross.

It's just not something you want running through your system day after day.

And I'm not taking any chances on having my kids ingesting that stuff either.

Investing in clean water at home, it's really just investing in your health and your family's health every single day.

Most of us don't have some fancy reverse osmosis system hooked up under the sink.

It's kind of hard to put those things in later too.

And who wants to drill into their countertop, hire a plumber for installation?

I recommend getting Cove Pure.

Cove Pure is a countertop purifier.

It takes out up to 99.9% of the stuff you don't want in your water, including all the stuff that I mentioned.

Even fluoride, if you want to limit that stuff, I personally think it's good for your teeth, but I know some people disagree.

And the best part, no installation.

You you just fill it, plug it in, and at the push of a button, you've got crisp, clean water, hot or cold.

Super easy to refill.

Filters last a really long time.

Definitely check out Cove Pure.

Clean water is one of the best investments you can make for you and your family.

For a limited time, go to covepure.com slash Jordan to get $200 off your purchase.

That's C-O-V-E-P-U-R-E dot com slash Jordan to get $200 off.

Covepier.com slash Jordan.

This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp.

October 10th was was World Mental Health Day.

This year, BetterHelp is reminding us to thank therapists, you know, the people that sit with us in the hard stuff, who ask the right questions and sometimes give us that safe space to cry or let go.

BetterHelp is a great place to just get started.

They've been doing this for over 12 years, helping more than 5 million people worldwide, including Jen and myself.

Just fill out a quick questionnaire.

They will match you with one of over 30,000 licensed professional therapists.

If you don't click with your match, you can switch anytime.

No awkwardness involved.

BetterHelp's reviews speak for themselves.

An average of 4.9 out of 5 stars across more than 1.7 million client reviews.

So, if something's been keeping you up at night or you just need someone to help you sort through whatever's going on in your life, give BetterHelp a try.

This World Mental Health Day, we're celebrating the therapists who've helped millions of people take a step forward.

If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey.

Our listeners get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/slash Jordan.

That's betterhelp.com/slash Jordan.

Thank you for listening and supporting the show.

Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here.

I would say it keeps the water running over at Gabe's place, but we all know that's not the case.

To learn more and get links to all the discounts you've hear on the show so you can check out the amazing sponsors for yourself, visit jordanharbinger.com/slash deals.

Please consider supporting those who support the show.

Now, back to Feedback Friday.

All right, next up.

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

Six years ago, I met my wife, and our early relationship felt magical, full of coincidences, chance encounters in a huge city, and the kind of reciprocal love at first sight intensity that neither of us had ever experienced.

For the first year, we were deeply in love, physically and emotionally.

Then, things changed.

I was struggling with anxiety and depression, and at my wife's suggestion, I tried Sertraline and SSRI, aka Zoloft.

It worked well for her, but for me, it was disastrous.

My sex drive vanished overnight, and even my feelings of being in love felt numbed.

I would go so far as to say that I fell out of love with her, and it happened when the the very first dose kicked in.

If meeting her and falling in love had been the very best thing to ever happen to me, this was the worst.

I waited a few months to see if I would adjust.

I didn't.

So I came off the medication.

My libido returned in general, and I could feel love for my wife again, but the sexual attraction toward her never came back.

I now believe that this is linked to something I've struggled with most of my adult life.

Schizoid personality disorder, or SPD.

Okay, I always get confused with this kind of stuff in the DSM.

Remind us what this is, Gabe.

It's not schizophrenia.

Schizoid is something.

Not schizophrenia, yeah.

I, too, cannot keep these fully straight.

So I looked into it, and schizoid personality disorder is apparently marked by a long-standing pattern of detachment from social relationships and a limited range of emotional expression in interpersonal settings.

So people with this condition often prefer solitary activities.

They tend to show little interest in close relationships.

They appear indifferent to praise or criticism.

It's interesting.

Got it.

So there's no like psychosis or delusion with this disorder.

No, that would be more like schizotypal personality disorder, which apparently creates also extreme discomfort with relationships, but then also brings unusual ideas, you know, like magical thinking or sensing hidden meaning and things, but not full-blown delusions or hallucinations like what you see with schizophrenia.

Man, so many colors in this rainbow.

All right, well, carry on.

It almost, it's like anhedonia, right?

It's just you're kind of, everything's muted.

I think it's more dramatic than Anhedia.

More dramatic than that.

Okay.

All right.

We'll carry on.

When we first met, it was in remission due to a specialized therapy and years of self-work.

But the shock of the SSRI episode brought it roaring back.

For me, SPD means that I crave closeness, but also feel overwhelmed by it.

And intimacy in a long-term relationship can feel impossible.

Out in the world, I feel desire, but with my wife, I can't sustain physical intimacy or much emotional intimacy for that matter.

One of the features of SPD is not knowing one's own emotional state well, and it literally didn't occur to me at first that the SPD was back.

It was only in the last 18 months, after much searching, that I finally identified what was happening, found a support group, and located a therapist whose approach I think could help me work through these issues.

I'm a little surprised that his psychiatrist was all, hey, get on Zoloft if it can trigger SPD that seems irresponsible somehow.

So I also read up on this briefly, and I'm not 100% sure that this is how it works.

Obviously, it goes without saying I tread lightly.

I'm not a psychiatrist by any means, but an antidepressant probably can't cause SPD to come back because schizoid personality disorder is not an illness that has remissions and relapses like depression or bipolar disorder.

So SPD is what they call a pervasive personality style.

So it's stable over time.

It doesn't go away in the same sense.

What can change is how severe or how limiting the traits feel.

But it seems that Zoloft could maybe exacerbate the appearance of schizoid traits in some people because one of the side effects is this emotional blunting.

And that can look like SPD detachment because it creates this reduced interest, sometimes flat affect or less enjoyment and activity, stuff like that.

I see.

So if somebody with SPD already tends to be kind of blunted and withdrawn, Zoloft might reinforce that and it can feel like SPD.

Exactly.

But that doesn't mean that it's a resurgence of the disorder.

And so people with SPD can apparently take Zoloft and other antidepressants for depression and anxiety.

But maybe he was speaking more informally, like it felt like the SPD was gone.

And then suddenly it felt like it was back after Zoloft.

When it was there the whole time, he had just done a lot of good work and it got better.

Yeah, it could be.

And then the Zoloft made him feel like he did before.

Yes.

So he goes on.

My wife is very loving and emotional.

One of the reasons I was so attracted to her to begin with.

And this has been desperately hard for her.

She's borne it like a saint, always patient, always understanding.

But over the years, our dynamic has led to frustration, to my need to find coping strategies, and to a sense of being a shadow of myself.

I had asked my wife for some time apart to just stop and think about what was going on.

After a month, I had a plan to come back together and work on this with therapy.

But she's reached the end of her patience.

She's about to turn 35, she wants children, and she told me two days ago that she doesn't see a future for us and doesn't think that another therapist will help.

Since living apart, I have actually felt lighter and happier on my own, but I can't tell if that's genuine relief or just because I've dropped the coping strategies that I used around her.

Part of me wants to fight hard for another chance at therapy and rebuilding intimacy because I often miss her a lot.

I just don't know if that's fair given my shortcomings.

Another part of me wonders if I should accept what she said, respect her timeline, and move forward alone.

Should I fight for this marriage knowing it's caused me such strain, but also offered me the greatest love of my life?

Or should I let go and accept that it's over?

Signed, wondering whether to walk or put more stock in our ability to talk when it seems that I've run out the clock?

Wow, fascinating and a tough question.

Let me start by saying I'm very sorry that you've struggled with SPD, with depression, with all these related issues.

I mean, that's a lot.

And I'm sorry it took such a toll on your marriage.

That is obviously really tough.

And I'm sad for you that SPD has made it hard to be consistently close, that it's caused so much pain.

I'm also sad for her.

I'm no expert in this particular disorder, but it sounds like it can be a real obstacle in a relationship.

She's probably been going through a lot these last few years.

So my feeling, based on what you've shared, is that you should let your wife go or at least take some time apart.

And I say this for a few reasons.

First, she's being extremely clear with you.

She's saying she's out of patience.

She doesn't see a future with you.

She doesn't think therapy will help.

That's pretty unequivocal, isn't it?

Yeah.

And if that's where she is, you just, you have to respect that.

I agree.

Also, she's on a timeline here.

I mean, what happens if they try for another year or two and then the same problems arise?

I mean, she wants kids.

It's something that she has to take seriously, right?

Yeah, that's the other thing.

She wants children.

She presumably needs to find a partner she can do that with.

So if she can't afford to give you more time, that's something else you just have to acknowledge.

At the same time, you have some work to do, potentially a lot of work.

You've made good progress with the SPD symptoms before.

It sounds like you're ready and you need to do it again.

You have this whole relationship to process.

You have to rediscover and reconnect with yourself after feeling like a shadow.

All of that is your process.

I'm also curious about the fact that since you've been apart, you feel lighter, you feel happier.

I can't quite tell whether that's just relief that the marriage is over or just relief that you don't have to keep up these.

what you call coping strategies around her.

But either way, that is an interesting feeling.

Maybe that's something else you need to take seriously.

I think that's a sign that a lot of energy was being taken up by all this, and that's energy you need to direct into your treatment.

Yes, it might also speak to a conflict he has about his wife that he needs to pay attention to.

I mean, look, he can want to fight for this marriage, and he can also have mixed feelings about whether it was actually the right marriage at all.

But that confusion is just one more reason to take this time for yourself, to let the feelings settle down more, to talk to your therapist, to decide what you really want.

For all these reasons, I don't think the right move is to fight for your wife, if that's even a true option.

I'm with you, Jordan.

I know he's in a lot of pain right now.

He's sad.

He misses her.

He's grieving their relationship.

All perfectly understandable, all appropriate, but he has to listen to her, right?

And he has to take care of himself.

I'm having a similar reaction to you.

He seems to understand his wife's position fairly well.

He seems to understand his own struggles very well.

I mean, he laid it out for us very clearly, but he's also saying, Should I fight for this marriage, knowing that it's caused me such strain, but it's also offered me the greatest love of my life?

There's so much going on, but there's like this push-pull here, this desire to be close, but this inability to be close.

And I think that maybe that's part of the SPD that he's describing.

And part of me is going, is this even an option if she's saying, I'm really sorry, but we cannot continue?

Why is this the question?

I get that she's given you the greatest love of your life.

She sounds like an angel.

But if she's literally saying, we have no future, it's not really a choice, is it?

So tell me if you agree, Jordan.

Part of me wonders if maybe, is this possibly another aspect of the SPD?

Again, I really want to tread lightly here.

I do not know.

I just find it interesting that intellectually he gets all this, but maybe relationally, it's hard for him to fully appreciate what his wife wants and how she's feeling and to recognize what's even realistic at this point in their relationship.

He said that SPD means that intimacy can feel impossible and he often doesn't know his own emotional state well.

So I wonder if that means that he might not be in touch with the part of himself that is recognizing that this might be over.

And that might also make it harder to fully empathize with her when she says, I'm really sorry, but this is the end.

There's no future for us.

Ah, interesting.

Yeah, could be.

Look, I can't tell you for sure what's going to happen with you and your wife.

It sounds like it's over.

And as hard as that is, that might be the best outcome here.

But in a big way, that's not really the main question here.

The main question is, what do you need to do to take care of yourself and get healthy again?

Because no successful relationship with your wife or anyone else is going to be possible until that happens.

And like we keep saying, your wife could have been part of that, but this is primarily your work to do.

So I wish you the best, man.

Throw yourself into therapy.

Learn what you need to learn from this chapter.

Take good care of yourself.

And if you do that, everything else will fall into place.

Good luck.

You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

Please keep your emails concise.

Try to use descriptive subject lines.

That makes our job a whole lot easier.

If your boss shamelessly hit on you in front of your colleagues, you're trying to recapture your mojo after losing someone close to you.

or your ex won't stop harassing, defrauding, and sextorting you across state lines.

Whatever's got you staying up at night night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

By the way, our newsletter is a big hit.

Every Wednesday, almost.

It's about a two-minute read delivered right to your inbox.

If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out.

It's over at jordanharbinger.com slash news.

All right, next up.

Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

I've been a listener to your show on and off for about eight years, and your six-minute networking course and your episodes on reaching one's potential potential and growing professionally have genuinely helped shape my mindset and my career.

Awesome.

Love to hear that.

A few years ago, I was doing shift work as a nurse making $60,000 a year.

Today, I'm a director of care earning $120,000 in a Monday to Friday leadership role.

My husband is a woodworker bringing in about $47,000.

Together, we've paid off all of our debt from overspending and education, except for our mortgage and $20,000 left from adopting our daughter.

Wow.

Very impressive.

That's got to to feel great.

Well done.

Gabe, I'm a little stunned by how expensive adoption is.

Wow.

I did not realize it was so costly.

Look, I don't know much about it, but it's kind of gross to me that it costs anything at all.

Like, you're doing this beautiful thing.

Hey, we desperately need to rehome these orphans.

Oh, I'll do it.

Cool.

Do you have 45 grand?

If not, go fly a kite and we'll just keep them here indefinitely.

Like, what is going on?

I don't, what?

I can understand having to cover some of the expenses, but to be left with, like, massive debt because you did a beautiful thing is sad.

Yeah.

It seems like the kind of thing the government should be like,

we are willing to subsidize this so we don't have orphans, but you know, who am I?

Yeah, sounds like something they probably do in Finland.

I'm just going to guess that Finland subsidizes that kind of thing.

Yes.

That's just the vibe I get.

My next goal is to get to $220,000 a year on my own so my husband can stay home with our daughter and I can take care of our aging parents.

But I feel stuck.

The next step up at work means more money, but the people above me are constantly stressed and working around the clock.

I'm not sure that that's the life I want.

At the same time, I don't really know what else is out there.

Maybe I'm missing something, or maybe this is the best path and I just need to approach it differently so I can see what's next.

What would you do if you were in my shoes?

Unsure if the corporate ladder is still the goal, but still driven to grow.

Are there options people like me often overlook, whether in income streams, side projects, or career pivots?

Signed, debating whether to rise up when I don't exactly light up, thinking about the demise of my life when it would be tied up.

Interesting question.

First of all, congrats on doubling your salary in just a few years for paying off so much of your debt, for setting you and your husband up well for the future.

This is all super impressive.

You're clearly an ambitious person.

You're willing to work hard.

You want to keep growing.

I love it.

So I hear you that you want to earn more money, but there's a price to pay.

Most people who earn a lot, they do work pretty hard.

They are more stressed.

They don't have an off switch.

And that's often why they're in positions to earn a lot of money.

And that's how they continue earning more.

Obviously, if someone's going to hand you $200,000 plus per year, it comes with more responsibility, more pressure, more commitments.

They're paying you in part for the life you're giving up.

And if that's not a trade-off you're willing to make, then maybe that's not your path and you don't have to keep rising up.

That said, I also love that you're going, okay, this is what I'm seeing in other people, but does it have to be that way?

Can I approach it differently?

And my answer is, yeah, maybe.

So first of all, the higher up the ladder you climb, the more intense it can get for sure.

Being a a leader means being comfortable with responsibility, taking ownership of things that other people would avoid, being willing to answer to the people above you.

So no matter what, there's probably going to be an uptick in stress and intensity if you move up.

However, I also do think that these transitions are an opportunity for us to go, how do I want to cope with stress?

How can I take on more responsibility without neglecting myself?

How do I become super effective, efficient, disciplined so that I can get my work done and still have a life to enjoy?

How can I collaborate with my colleagues to make a more senior job doable?

How can I empower my subordinates to do their own great work without me?

Because the reality is people in more senior roles making more money, they still only have 24 hours in a day.

Yes, they have more resources.

Yes, they have more power.

Yes, they're probably sacrificing a few extra hours of their personal lives for their careers.

I'm not denying that.

But there's an upper limit to how much work you can actually do as a human being.

And within that range of possible work, a person's success largely comes down to how they manage their time, how they manage themselves, how they partner with other people, and how they cope with the unique pressures of their job.

And so what I'm getting at is just because the people above you are constantly stressed and working around the clock, that doesn't really mean that you have to be.

Now, maybe you'll need to do that for the first three or six months while you get up to speed.

That's kind of normal.

That can be important.

Or maybe this is just the culture of your organization for people to put in FaceTime, which I am not a fan of, or or for things to be so poorly managed that everyone has to work hard to put out fires constantly, in which case I would try to find out if that's going to be your situation.

Find that out in advance.

Although, even then, I think you have a shot at doing things differently, or you could jump ship to another place with a better approach, whatever.

But even if that's the case, you still get to decide how you want to operate.

And how you operate is largely the life that you get.

Well said, Jordan.

I also think that stress and unhappiness are so subjective, right?

What one person finds exciting and meaningful can drive another person up the wall.

You know, what one person finds tedious, frustrating, that can give another person a lot of satisfaction.

So like, what's your relationship with your work?

How do you feel about the people in this organization?

Would you enjoy these more senior tasks?

How do you tend to deal with stress in general?

I think all of that is going to play a huge role in your experience of a more senior role.

And part of that is how important this extra money is.

You said that you want to earn that amount so your husband can stay home with your child.

Would that be worth the potential stress?

Maybe.

Yeah.

again, so much of this is about the meaning that she's going to make of these things.

I mean, if you put in 80 hours a week as a leader in a company and you don't feel particularly passionate about the product or you don't enjoy the work and it's just purely an attempt to make more money, that might be smart.

That might be potentially even necessary, but that's probably harder to sustain.

But if you chase this job because you want your spouse to enjoy a break and you want your child to grow up with one devoted parent at home and you want to give yourself the resources you need to take care of your parents, that can make a demanding job like this a lot more doable.

Good point.

So we can't tell you for sure whether the corporate ladder is for you or you should look into a new career or a side hustle or whatever, but my advice would still be the same.

Instead of thinking of increased responsibility and power as guaranteed stress, think of it as an opportunity to grow and get better at managing your career.

And I promise you, a side hustle is going to eat up hours of your life too.

Transitioning to a new career, that's an investment too.

Diversifying your income streams, that's going to take work.

So no matter what you do, you're going to be dealing with the same inputs.

How you manage these inputs, how you take care of yourself, how you protect your personal time, that's going to determine how sustainable this is.

Also, don't try to plot out too many moves in advance.

I would just keep doing great work, keep building your relationships, see what doors open to you at these higher levels, and then decide if it's a leap that you want to make.

I think you'll be in a different mindset at that point.

You'll be working with different information.

Also, you can always ask for even more money and see if they'll give it to you.

Maybe that's what makes this increased stress worthwhile.

You never know.

Love your ambition, love your mindset, and good luck.

You know what's cheaper than adopting a baby?

Pretty much everything, but also the fine products and services that support this show.

We'll be right back.

This episode is sponsored in part by Bowl and Branch.

Not all betting is created equal.

You may think sheets are just sheets, but quality textile makes a huge difference in comfort and durability.

That's where Bolin Branch really stands out.

Their sheets are crafted from the finest, long staple organic cotton, not the thin, scratchy bargain bin stuff.

From the first night, you will notice the smooth, substantial feel that actually breathes with you.

And instead of wearing down after a few washes, Bowl and Branch sheets get softer over time thanks to the way the fabric is woven and finished.

It's one of those details you don't realize you've been missing until you actually experience it.

But once you do, it's tough to go back to regular sheets.

Bowl and branch transforms your bed into a true sanctuary.

And it's worth investing in.

You spend a third of your life in bed, or maybe, you know, ideally more.

Why not make those hours as comfortable and restorative as possible?

Cheaper sheets might save a few bucks up front, but they wear out fast.

They end up costing more in the long run.

Plus, they're icky, right?

Bowl and branch gives you lasting quality and better sleep night after night.

Also, as a bonus, the packaging is gorgeous.

Bowl and branch products arrive in elegant boxes that make them perfect for gifting.

Bull and Branch makes upgrading your bed easier than ever with curated bundles for a sanctuary of comfort.

For a limited time, get 20% off bed bundles, plus free shipping and returns, at bullandbranch.com/slash Jordan.

That's bull and branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D Branch.com/slash Jordan to save up to 20% and unlock free shipping.

Exclusions apply.

This episode is also sponsored by Progressive.

You chose to hit play on this podcast today.

Smart choice.

Progressive loves to help people make smart choices.

That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies so you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you.

Give it a try after this episode at progressive.com.

Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates.

Not available in all states or situations.

Prices vary based on how you buy.

This episode is also sponsored by Simply Safe.

When I'm traveling for interviews, I'll admit I worry about leaving Jen and the kids at home at night, but that's why we use SimplySafe.

It's not just another camera that records after the fact.

It's almost like having trained security guards watching over the house.

That's not an exaggeration.

There was this real incident where a guy tried to light a family's house on fire while they were inside.

Simply Safe's agent spotted him through the camera, spoke directly to him, called emergency services right away, and kept the family on the phone to make sure they were all right.

Understandably, they were all very shaken.

You could hear it in their voices.

That family was protected because SimplySafe acted before the crime even started.

That's what sets them apart.

The live guard protection means if someone's creeping around outside, Simply Safe agents step in right then, talking to them, setting off sirens, even lighting up the yard.

Just knowing they're being watched is often enough to make intruders turn around.

It's that peace of mind I count on while I'm away because I know SimplySafe isn't just reacting, it's actively deterring crime.

Right now, you can save 50% on a SimplySafe system at simplysafe.com/slash Jordan.

That's simplysafe.com/slash Jordan.

If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

All of the deals and discounts you hear on the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com/slash deals.

If you can't find a code or if those don't work for some reason, always email us, jordan at jordanharbinger.com.

We'll dig up the codes for you.

It's that important that you support those who support the show.

And now for the recommendation of the week.

I am addicted addicted to Lit Villa.

My recommendation of the week is a bit of a throwback, actually.

It's a true crime docuseries called The Staircase.

Jordan, have you heard of this thing?

I don't think so.

So The Staircase follows the trial of a somewhat famous novelist named Michael Peterson.

This guy was accused of murdering his wife, Kathleen Peterson, when she was found dead at the bottom of their staircase in their home in North Carolina.

And what happened after that is absolutely insane.

I don't want to give away too much, but the trial ended up having all of these crazy twists and turns and it turned up hidden secrets from Michael's past and it shed a light on what you could argue is corruption and malfeasance in the justice system in Durham County.

I don't want to say anything more.

It is riveting.

And one of the things that made this series so fascinating is that the filmmakers embedded with the defense team.

So you get to see how a defense actually comes together.

And then they also had access to the prosecutors in the case.

And the filmmakers, for the most part, didn't really take sides.

So you're you're just getting a glimpse into how the case unfolds.

And as a viewer, you're constantly left wondering, like, what actually happened?

Who's telling the truth here?

It is so entertaining and it is so fascinating.

Oh, and also the filmmakers began filming this in 2003 when the trial began.

And then they came back and they added follow-up episodes in 2013 for reasons that I will let you find out.

And then they did it again in 2018.

So this story just would not end.

And you see this guy's insane life unfold over like 15 years.

Hands Hands down, my favorite true crime docuseries ever.

It had a very big influence on every other true crime series that came after it, and it's currently streaming on Netflix.

I think you're gonna love it.

Let me know what you think.

Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for the show.

If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes, there's a lot of discussion in there about the guests, the feedback Friday questions.

It's actually quite a bit of fun.

You can find that over on Reddit in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

All right, what's next?

Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm guessing you guys don't agree politically with Charlie Kirk, but I'm someone on the right who does.

I used to watch his content all the time.

I never met him, but after his assassination, I can't help but feel like I lost a close friend or family member.

I felt the same after Robin Williams' death.

The whole thing has gotten me wondering about our connection with high-profile people and what this event says about our country.

Why do we hold people we never met in such high esteem, like actors or famous people?

How do we come together as a nation when our opinions and views of America america and our future are so different signed a guy who's hurt and whose view of america is being reworked after the loss of his boy kirk interesting questions also gabe charlie kirk you trying to get us canceled this is a third rail for a lot of people i just feel like you need more free time yeah to be honest good looking out man the quickest way to get yourself off the air apparently just ask jimmy kimmel that and making fun of all the fins and russians who listen to our show but whatever yeah let's blame this letter yes so interesting story i actually knew charlie really yeah i did not not know that yeah yeah he used to be on my network podcast one so he would often be recording when i would use the studio in la so i would just be sitting in the room waiting for him to wrap up or do commercials or he'd come in after me so i met him i don't know dozens of times and we were acquaintances buddies whatever he was probably like i don't know 26 years old i did not know this were you guys like close or was it just like in passing we had lunch a couple times i helped him and his team with their podcast in the beginning because it was new and they'd call me with questions about recording or ad sales or like, does this contract term look fair to you?

Or we're thinking about leaving.

What do you think?

And we had a playful dynamic.

We would sometimes argue about political things kind of informally, right?

Because I basically just gave him a bunch of crap.

And, you know, we'd get into a little bit of a fight or he'd do this thing where he'd take an even more extreme position of his argument just to see what my reaction would be.

And, you know, he was always really nice to me,

nice to everybody at podcast one, as far as I could tell.

And he was fired up in a way that didn't strike me as inauthentic.

Like he wasn't doing the sort of performative, I'm an angry right-wing guy.

Like, he just felt strongly about the arguments that he made.

And so, I have to say, it has been strange and fascinating watching people across the political spectrum respond to his murder.

And I've never seen anything like it.

And both sides are spinning it in different ways, using the tragedy in different ways, trying to separate the guy from the event in different ways.

It's interesting.

So, yeah, okay, some more philosophical questions today.

Why do we hold famous people we've never met in such high esteem?

I think because they represent something meaningful to us, because they bring something to us that we can't get in our ordinary lives, whether it's laughter or insight or confidence or whatever it is.

Robin Williams, he was an artist.

He was like a clown type figure, a super talented clown.

You know, he made us laugh.

He made us feel things.

Charlie Kirk, for people who were fans, of course, he gave them entertainment through his debates.

He gave them angles on big topics that made sense to them.

Someone also also just told me, I'm not 100% sure about this, but it's interesting if true.

Someone told me he would also post videos where he lost debates sometimes, which I do appreciate, just that he wasn't totally curating his image.

So I imagine that probably another thing he gave people was authenticity and courage, at least to some degree.

So for all those reasons, we hold these people in high esteem.

Yeah, well said.

I agree with all of that.

I also think that we can sometimes project onto these public figures certain qualities that we find admirable.

You know, we assume that they're brilliant or courageous or flawless or whatever it is.

And sometimes we want to place these parts of ourselves that we don't have or that we're not in touch with onto other people.

And social media makes that very easy as well.

And then we get to experience those qualities that way through them.

Agreed.

And so there's something cool about that.

And there's something potentially sad about that.

All depends on our relationship with these people, I suppose.

Your second question, honestly, man, I don't know how to answer that.

How do we come together as a nation when our views are so different?

No big deal.

Just, you know, casual feedback Friday question.

I don't know.

Maybe that's the question in the United States right now.

I will say the way some people on the left, people who disagreed with and probably even hated Charlie Kirk, the way some of them have said, look, I don't like this guy.

I actually find his views abominable, but this is terrible.

This is wrong.

We can condemn this murderer and mourn this guy, even if we despised him.

I do think that might be one answer to your question, that underneath our political divides, there's a common humanity.

And obviously, not all of his opponents are doing that, but there are a lot of them.

And that's the correct response, even if it doesn't feel like such a loss to them.

The other way we can come together is through entertainment, which I suppose in a way Charlie Kirk did.

His videos were a form of entertainment, like you said, Jordan, in addition to a form of education, I guess you would call it.

I mean, left, right, center.

We all love a good movie.

We love a great song.

We love going to an awesome concert.

Maybe not Disney movies these days, okay?

But, you know, maybe not kid rock concerts.

But so everything is like drawn along political lines now.

But there are experiences that transcend politics.

Those are the things that I think we all come to.

True, but really, I think the U.S.

is so fractured now, not just because of specific policy issues, but because we no longer have a set of agreed-on core values as a country.

I'm not sure America knows what it stands for.

We kind of do sometimes in some vague way, but our culture and our mission and our role in the world are so confused and complicated, especially at this moment.

And that makes it really hard to transcend political differences.

But honestly,

I don't know if that's just an America thing.

Our whole civilization is kind of going through it right now.

As for healing, moving forward with these different views, I think that's up to all of us individually.

There's a private mourning we all have to do for people we love and admire.

And as a country, it's up to our democracy to contain all these different voices, different values, different agendas.

And hopefully it leads to decent results.

I think it's only going to get more chaotic from here on out, though, because everyone's voice is being amplified now.

And our system is getting, depending on how you look at it, either more corrupt or more fragile or more cynical.

Democracies are already more turbulent than authoritarian regimes by virtue of the fact that they're for and by the people and they allow for so much change.

So I expect there will just be more and more of that.

But you know, maybe that's also a good thing.

You know, maybe the turbulence of our system is a sign that it is, in some fundamental way, still working because it is responding to all of this chaos, whether it's political fights or the murder of a public figure, which is so insane.

And maybe that can give us some hope that we can rely on the system to do its job, even when these tragedies happen.

But yeah, there's no doubt that it's never been more chaotic and dysfunctional than it is at this moment.

Yeah, just like some of the characters we hear about on Feedback Friday, I suppose.

But look, man, I'm no political scientist.

I just host a podcast where I talk to people smarter than me.

What I can say is, I'm sorry that you're hurting after Charlie Kirk's murder.

I am too, not just because we overlapped for a time, but because a father and a son and a professional just got straight up murdered on a college campus in this country.

That's horrifying.

You're right.

My politics don't line up neatly with Charlie Kirk's, but that doesn't matter.

What happened to him is tragic.

It's disgusting.

And we should all be saddened and disturbed by what happened to him.

We all have to grieve our relationships with these folks when they die and figure out how we want to keep them alive in our own way.

Or do our part in addressing the fact that they had to leave too early.

Or, if you vehemently dislike or disagree with them, then to find ways of embodying different values from them in our own lives.

I realize that's more complicated with somebody like Charlie Kirk than, say, Robin Williams, who was kind of like a beloved national treasure from Disney movies, for example.

It's easier to just celebrate somebody who made us laugh, but that's part of mourning.

And I hope you find that meaning in his death as well.

Don't forget to check out our episodes with the legendary William H.

Macy and the amazing Oz Perlman.

If you haven't listened to those yet, definitely worth your time, in my opinion.

Show notes and transcripts at jordanharbinger.com.

Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram.

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's over on Instagram, at Gabriel Mizrahi.

This show is created in association with Podcast One.

My amazing team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sedlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

Remember, we rise by lifting others.

Share the show with those you love.

If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

And we'll see you next time.

We worry about secret societies online, but the real danger may be hiding in trusted institutions that we see every day.

I'm a financial reporter by background.

I basically fell into this rabbit hole.

And so I began to dig.

And this Spanish priest called Jose Maria Escriva dreamed up this kind of group which called itself El Paste, which is Latin for the work of God.

He saw his followers as part of this hidden militia that would infiltrate society and use their positions there to basically push society in the right direction.

And he literally tasked them with infiltrating government, business, the world of education, becoming journalists, and kind of using their positions there to be this guerrilla reactionary force.

The thing that makes this so much worse is that this is an organization which has been legitimized by the Catholic Church.

It has the stamp of approval from the Pope, from the Vatican.

The way that Opus Day operates is that it's using scripture to push back on anything progressive and for anything kind of left-leaning and it's a misuse of religion, really.

I think the vast majority of Opus Day members, they don't have a clue about this human trafficking and the way that, you know, certain members are being drugged.

Labor trafficking, I mean, grooming of children, all kinds of kind of financial fraud and spiritual fraud as well.

All of these abuses going on, I think they would be absolutely horrified to find out what is going on inside the organization.

They have thousands of members.

The network runs far and wide, assets in the billions.

Anyone that isn't part of Opus Day is an enemy of Christ.

Gareth Gore uncovers how Opus Day built a global empire of secrecy and why dismantling it might be the fight of our time.

Check it out on episode 1170 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

The questions start early.

How do I know when he's full?

Do babies hold grudges?

That's why we make one formula that feels right right away.

One that's clinically proven with immune-supporting benefits in every scoop.

Learn more at byheart.com.